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A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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Bush knew about Katrina |
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Jaime Fradera Senior Member
since 2000-11-25
Posts 843Where no tyranny is tolerable |
]Let's see what we have here. There's at least one forwarded e-mail circulating through the Web. It says Bush knew about Katrina and did nothing, ie, he wanted people to die ... maybe did this on purpose. Really now? Like Bill Clinton knew about the USS Coral bombings in advance and let it happen? Like Jimmy Carter knew about the hostages in advance and let it happen? Like Ronald Reagan knew about the Challenger Accident in advance, sat on his haunches and did nothing? Like President Bush knew in advance about 911 and just let it happen? If the likes of Ward Churchill and that teacher in Aurora actually think the United States shouldn't have happened and ought to be blown off the face of the Earth, starting with the Pentagon, why don't they flee to North Korea or Fidel Castro's socialist paradise where everybody is happy? How long are people going to automatically swallow such simplistic dribble? How long will it take before the credible becomes incredible? How many U.S. Presidents have been compared with Adolph Hitler, accused of blowing up countries he doesn't like, accused of working in collusion with his big oil friends to trash the planet, accused of being the world's most dangerous terrorist? How long will this continue? How long, O Lord, How long? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"How long will this continue? How long, O Lord, How long?" Jaime? That startled me a bit, because I just had a visitor who asked, "How long?" too. It's been six months now, and he's caring for his blind, diabetic brother in an area of New Orleans still without electricity. His brother has lost his mind. Literally. We're still looking for bodies here--and finding them. How long? As long as it takes--that how long.  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Stupidity is eternal |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
What's that supposed to mean, Huan Yi? Just who, exactly, are you calling 'stupid'? |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Absolutely agree with Karen.....as long as it takes. I believe it was obvious from the beginning that officials on all levels of government were warned in advance and still failed to take direct action. Nagin was having a cocktail on the French Quarter, Blanco perhaps was having her best suit starched clean, "Brownie" was going on about being a Nordstrom fashion god, Cherthoff was distracted, Bush was playing guitar with Mark Willis in California, Cheney was buying a new house up in New England, Condi was shoe shopping in New York City, and other administration officials were attending a baseball game despite knowing of the National Weather Service warnings and other warning signs. I don't believe this news that reinforces that reality means to imply whatsoever that these representatives on all levels of government really wanted people on the Gulf Coast to die. I don't believe anyone on any level of our government was that heartless. This news story is important, however, because you heard, for instance, administration official say they "didn't anticipate the breach of the levees" and the all-too-familiar Bush didn't know excuse, yet the reality is the contrary. They DID know, and this story is really about the credibility of all levels of government, and just as I argued after the Katrina tragedy, many Americans are looking back on this epic response disaster and feel as though they can't trust their government whatsoever to respond to disasters like this from here on out. And, in understanding that Bush and others DID know, despite previous excuses claiming the opposite, it ends up questioning their overall credibility. For instance, Bush said he didn't know about the Dubai deal under after it was approved in preliminary stages. Sources now suggest he did know about that also. Previous issues too, like the Plame leak and "intelligence" used to push us into war in Iraq. Those all-too-familiar excuses with all-too-familiar pointings to the contrary. Those wackos like Ward Churchill and the nuts on Indymedia, with their anti-Semite attitudes and exhaustive "fascist" and "Hitler" analogies, are nuts to suggest that Bush was behind 9/11, that Reagen was behind the Challenger accident, that Jimmy Carter staged the hostage crisis, etc. They're totally and inconceivably wrong. However, irresponsibility and incompetence are things we unanimously do not tolerate either, which indeed all politicians are subject to. And I do believe if Bush, Blanco, Nagin, etc. were more responsible and took the warnings seriously and helped mobilize all they could to respond to the looming disaster, though the damage would still be done and thus no one was a murderer in this, we probably could have saved a number of preventable lives in the crisis. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Jaime Fradera Senior Member
since 2000-11-25
Posts 843Where no tyranny is tolerable |
Yes, Huan Yi. I like that, stupidity is indeed eternal. It must be so easy to think there are simple answers and explanations for everything? Ain't it easy to believe dark conspiracies are running the world? That whatever happens to us is someone else's fault? Ain't it easy to be a victim? I can't afford to count my victimizers. I don't even have the luxury of blaming God. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I agree, Jaime. If there are no conspiracies available, someone is sure to create one. Excellent post... Reminds me of my favorite poem, Some Angry Angel, which can be found here... http://tegularius.org/keener.html [This message has been edited by Balladeer (03-03-2006 08:32 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Say it ain't so Mike. You can't really think this is an "excellent" post? Are you serious? Say it ain't so. BUSH knew about Katrina. So did Blanco. So did Nagin. and this has got to be the most cold hearted applause I have ever heard. I won't say that it's so, until you say it is, and even then? It's gonna take six more months to swallow. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, Serenity, I think it's an excellent post because it shows in a sarcastic way the conspiracies and lunatistic conclusions people come up with to justify whatever point they want to make. Do you think Bush did nothing about katrina because he wanted people to die? Some will claim that. do you think Clinton knew about the USSCoral bombings in advance and did nothing? I despise Clinton and still don't believe that. Did Bush know about 9/11 in advance and did nothing? What brainless idiot came up with that one? Everybody is so quick to point fingers and lay blame, come up with their own conspiratorial conclusions for everything that goes wrong in the world. I can certainly understand your point of views concerning Katrina. You are there and who better to understand the situation much better than any of us? What decimated New Orleans? KATRINA! What could have stopped it? NOTHING. There was a hurricane, one of the strongest to ever hit the US. Yet, according to some, that little fact seems to be immaterial. Could Bush have done better? You bet! Nagin? Blanco? No doubt about it. Could they have stopped it? You know the couldn't. It was a natural occurance whose time it was to happen and New Orleans was in its way. For the people who give the impression that stronger action by Bush could have stopped the wind and kept the levees from failing, those who claim that Bush didn't really care because there were just a bunch of poor blacks that were gonna get washed away...then i say this is an excellent post to show in a slightly sarcastic way how senseless and pointless guilt-sticking after the fact is. |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
Unbelievable... "this has got to be the most cold hearted applause I have ever heard" Amen to that... Love you, Karen...  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Six months ago I was a different person. Three days ago, I believe my governor when she said she had "no idea." I confess, I had qualms about the Bush administration saying the same, because I have simply always had qualms about the Bush administration. When I read, then heard, then saw rafts being denied the citizens of New Orleans, I was ready to believe--I am this dumb--I was ready to believe that the FEMA organization believed rubber rafts couldn't survive storm rapids and debris--even as we watched our citizens ride rooftops down streets, with their babies in icechests, and I am NOT being dramatic--people died because of other people's hesitation regarding wardrobe attire? c'mon.... PEOPLE DIED. WE STILL HAVE NOT COUNTED THEM. and no, Mike, I can't blow that off, and I have to tell you all here, I am enraged, seeing these tapes made public, with no feasible plans. I feel guilty because we left a car in our driveway with a full tank of gas. Eight people could have fit in there Mike. EIGHT. I have seen many, many hurricanes. I have seen many many stupid stupid deaths. But never have I seen such a combo. I wake crying, every damned day. I cannot believe this happened in our country and it makes me afraid. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I believe we all must accept that, except for anyone else who truly coped with Hurricane Katrina along the Gulf coast, can never fully feel or really understand the immeasurable grief and frustration like our Karen has. And I'm not saying this as a personal blasting on Balladeer whatsoever, as I know wholeheartedly when he said this was an excellent post that he wasn't taking away anything from the intense tragedy of Katrina, but I don't believe there's anything to celebrate here whatsoever. Tens of thousands are STILL running around homeless six months later, many of them off food stamps, with FEMA no longer funding their temporary housing or hotels and such, the destruction of New Orleans, Biloxi, etc. is still most visible, the Housing Authority of New Orleans is denying most citizens the right to return to their properties, there are myriads of issues. And regardless of the quality of this overall discussion, this isn't an enjoyable discussion by any means. I'd say if there is a silver lining in all of this, it comes from the millions of hearts of Americans and millions more abroad, through their altruism and Good Samaritan touch for the families affected by this tragedy. The amount of compassion and charity that was generated in response to Hurricane Katrina is unprecedented for an American natural disaster, and this huge compassionate display is what keeps me hopeful, keeps me optimistic, that the vast majority of this nation cares, and though I have minimal confidence that any level of government will respond any better to the next Katrina, the voice of fellow-feeling among most Americans is pure and strong. Like Karen, though I was about 2,000 miles away from New Orleans when it was hit hard, I too can't believe New Orleans looked truly like a third-world community after the damage was done even to today, and I am also afraid on many levels. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
My father used to say, "the more you learn, the more you realize how little you really know." For those who pass off things, calling it "conspiracy theories," I say to you (with all due respect), time indeed will tell, maybe not everything, but enough to expose the truth. History has shown us this repeatedly. If you don't want to take the time to investigate the truth and just pan it off as paranoia or conspiracy theory, then that is your decision. But, it is not polite to knock those who do.  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Conspiracy theorists invariably over-complicate everything. You don't need malevolence to explain incompetence. quote: Incompetency isn't necessarily a crime. In the first place, voters get what they want and, arguably, what they deserve. In the second place, when it comes to leaping tall buildings and bending steel with bare hands, few of us are not incompetent. Incompetency isn't necessarily a crime, but lying to the public -- again and again and again -- certainly should be. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I first must clarify that I am not a Bush fan at all, but I am not going to blame him for a hurricane that he had no power to stop. He could have done way better for sure, and might next time if still in office. You know I spend a lot of time at the link shown below learning about your history, constitution, and what makes Americans tick as I have a lot of American friends, and do this out of respect to them partly. I have been on the 3rd floor quite a while reading the Pledge of Alliance, and the Constitution as it is explained there. I have said it before, and will again that the one thing that separates Americans from the rest of the world is your loyalty, and dedication to your country. I miss that right now. My favorite sight is that great American flag blowing in the wind so proudly once I cross the border. American Hall of Heroes I particularly love the explanation of the Pledge Of Allegiance as it is explained further down the page here: Pledge Of Allegiance What happened to the victims during and after Katrina was all based on lies from almost everyone from the head of your government on down, but that is just my own opinion. The media perpetuated the lies, and we have to thank ourselves for keeping them alive and spreading. There are truths to the fact that trailers sit empty, but they have to have a place to put them, hook them up and give the people working services they say? When? Bush has for sure given you all reason to question his ability more than any other president in American history that is for sure, but he stands firm in taking risks no other president ever has as well and therefore creates controversy in his role. He was voted in and continues to do what you has given him power as your president to do, and will continue to do it as long as he holds office. He could not have stopped that hurricane, and what worries me is that there will yet be another one, due to the changing of our environment. It's easy for me up in Canada you probably think to not "blame" someone when there are still people dead, missing, or displaced that will never return to their homes. Not so, as I listen to the truth being told to me from Karen on how it really is down there, and it is in so many areas not "livable" for human or beast. Now were I to blame anyone, I would blame the whole of the earth's inhabitants, for depleting Mother Nature of her stability, and then pick up a hammer, and start re-building what was taken away, and I do in my own way. We are all angry, lacking trust as the truth is hidden and always will be. The fact of the matter is this hurricane is over, and the solution is now what do we do to make it a better place for those suffering, and that means all of us! Not just the citizens of America. Everyone has to do his or her part, no matter now small to repair, rebuild, and rebirth. My heart goes out to everyone who feels this frustration and anger, and justly so, as you were indeed lied to, but if you had known the truth, what would it have changed realistically speaking? What are your thoughts? I ask this question in all due respect as I have not been able to come up with any answers myself. Those that were able to get out did, those that could not, we indeed mourn. What could have been done differently, and maybe we can all learn from those suggestions? |
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Jaime Fradera Senior Member
since 2000-11-25
Posts 843Where no tyranny is tolerable |
/Well Karen I conceed Bush knew about Katrina. I suppose he also knew about Laura? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Jaime? I enjoy a good conspiracy theory as much as anyone and once upon a time, I had the luxury of amusing myself by spending hours reading about them. I apologize if I sound weary sweetie. But if you are going to willingly go to a site online where that stuff is offered, may I politely suggest you not ask how long it will go on? If you want to know how long talk regarding the worst natural disaster in U.S. is going to go on--read what I just typed. In history. Silence won't make it go away. And god how I wish I didn't know either. But I know this area, and if you don't think the poverty stricken people of New Orleans have good reason to be paranoid, then you are also blessed with a naivete that doesn't know the cycle of poverty, crime, and prejudice. If stupid things on the internet bore you, then don't read them. Now pardon me while I take my own advice. My life here is literally killing me. I get a little irate about that. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Jaime, I hestitated on responding to this thread as I didn't want to upset anyone with my lack of first-hand knowledge of what is going on down there. There seems to be two totally different issues being discussed as well. However, I do hear daily from someone living down there about bodies still be found, more even that are missing, and not even being looked for until a family demands it. Disease running rampant, and minds so messed up that reality is over for them. That sickens me as a lot of it could have been avoided. I didn't want it come across that I am at all forgiving ole Bush. I said, "He couldn't be held responsible for a hurricane."  In answer to your first question, "How long will this go on?" I hope as long as it takes to find out the truth and the actual parties responsible for causing so many deaths in the south, and action taken on their lack of responsibility. There were indeed ways to get people out of cities there, and they slacked on that, why? When the dust settles, blame will land where it may hopefully. My hope is that it happens "soon!" So, I still reiterate the last question in my previous comment, "What could the administation have done better so that next time they can do a better job during a natural disaster?" In answering this, we will all get to see the errors made, and make it easier to walk through the smoke of blame, and put it where it belongs, as well as learning some preparedness. Thanks. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
I agree with Balladeer's assessment on this situation. What could of been done to stop Katrina? Nothing. If an early evacuation was deemed mandatory, how many people would of listened and evacuated and how many would of stayed in their homes, ignoring the mandatory evacuation? Sure, it could of been handled better. The first person I would blame would have to the mayor of NO. Next, would be the governer of LA. If those two had their acts together, more could of been saved, but how many more, I just don't know. I don't think too many more anyway. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
For anyone who doesn't think that the disaster which resulted in this horendous situation could not have been prevented by the Bush administration, please read: http://www.nobody-knows-anything.com/2005/09/a_short_katrina_timeline.html and then think about it with a little logic! Serenity has first-hand knowledge about the state of affairs there now and I'd like to know what is being done to help the continued suffering, the treatment for PTSD and those darn trailers that are sitting undistributed and rotting, just to name a very few of the problems. What are they doing about disease control and who is in charge of that. I would think with as much concern about the bird flu, there might be a little more concern about the types of diseases which could create pandemics coming out of a situation as exists there in NO. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
I thought about it with much logic [upon reading that timeline], and my mind still hasn't changed. Hindsight is always 20/20. That webpage doesn't prove anything. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
With all due respect, it does prove and it has been proven repeatedly that the administration knew as early as 2001 that the levies were one of the top three potential disasters and what was done, they cut funding! Call it incompetency, stupidity or conspiracy theory....the result and the facts are the same! And...lol, nine minutes to repost....geeeeezzzz, you must be a super genius to have checked out the validity and all...! |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
~ I read the timeline, if it took me 9 minutes to read it and reply, then that was too long. ~ I just happen to know about politics, having studied it in grad school. Once again, hindsight is always 20/20 - Always! "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
One thing is an absolute truth; hindsight is always clearer than foresight. I would strongly disagree that hindsight is always 20/20, though. I believe if that were true, then we wouldn't be arguing here all the time and would never be repeating history's follies. I believe to most the dust is still very slowly settling and most of us don't realize many of the trials and adversities many on the Gulf are being faced with, just like no one but those who are serving in or have visited Iraq know exactly what the situation is there. I feel our Karen is the closest here to 20/20 on this particular event in terms of understanding the nature of all that has happened. I believe just about everyone beyond the Gulf is compassionate and cares about all that is happening, but in terms of understanding the full issue here, I think we all have one lazier eye. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Amen to that, Noah! You know what? The thing that gets me is all this about whose fault is or isn't -- it's almost an antrocity that this is the focus of a thread. Deer, most obviously, Bush couldn't stop the wind....lol. That's ridicuous and that is not the point. Now, whether or not something could have been done to stop the levy break, any sane person knows it could have been prevented...it was technically feasible! And it had been asked for! And those who turned their backs after 9/11 to the vulnerabilities of the infostructure of our nations biggest oil shipping center (not to mention the people who populated it) should be held into account for it. That should not even be the focus here -- that should be investigated by our representatives or an independent council. That's like questioning whether or not Ken Lay and the rest of the Enron chronies should have been held to account for the disaster their decisions caused? I really do believe the administration and whoever else is still sitting on their duffs about the situation resulting from Katrina should get up off 'em and do something. Some act like there is not a problem to deal with...that it is all over...and now those poor folks down there (and spread all over the US) have to just shut up and put up with their situation. What is really bothering me is that kind of attitude. If it can happen to them, then it can happen to you. [This message has been edited by iliana (03-04-2006 09:48 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Karen, don't think I don't understand and agree with your anger and frustration. You know I do. Nor am I defending FEMA for their post-hurricane efforts...I DO blame them for much of it as I blame them for still not being in touch with Floridians who lost everything two years ago! PEOPLE DIED Yes, they died. They died because the hurricane hit them. For anyone whose blood is boiling at the fact Bush had been told the levees may be topped by flood waters, i have to say "..and?". Would he have been able to send Katrina somewhere else? Would he have been able to reinforce the levees before Katrina hit? Nope. Would he have been able to warn New Orleans that Katrina was very dangerous? Everybody drawing a breath knew that. What different could have been done to prevent the deaths? Well, Nagin could have used the hundreds of buses that sat there empty to save people. He should have done that anyway. Is it the administration's fault that he didn't? You could have put 8 people in your car? He could have put thousands on buses. The primary line of prevention and defense lies with the city - the second with the state. Why is it Bush that makes the blood boil? I am no fan of Bush's lackadaisical attude previous to the strike, believe me, but I don't see what action could have been taken by him with this "startling" new evidence that could have averted the disaster that was to come. If you want to talk post-hurricane, Serene One, I am with you all the way. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Now, whether or not something could have been done to stop the levy break, any sane person knows it could have been prevented...it was technically feasible! Yes, Iliana, any sane person does know that. They know that it could have been prevented for the past 30 years. They also know that the corruption of the city government (which is one of the worst there is) over that period of time by misappropriating and stealing the monies earmarked for strengthening the levees is why work wasn't done, not Bush's cuts 3 years ago. All of this was covered quite thoroughly in previous threads on Katrina....but I wouldn't expect that to change anyone's mind. Or are you saying that the technical work could have been done in the two days before the hurricane hit? That would be an interesting theory. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Someone on this thread talked about utilizing logic, well, Mr. Balladeer is teaching Logic 101 as I write. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Mike, if there was nothing the President could do why didn't he tell us precisely that in the wake of the disaster? Why did he, instead, tell us "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" when interviewed by Diane Sawyer on September 1? That was four days after the hurricane and five days after the pre-storm briefing where both he and Chertoff heard an expert voice "grave concerns" over the reliability of those same levees. Why doesn't the truth matter? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, the truth matters, Ron, discounting Clinton's eight years in office, of course. If you are going to make politicians lying to the public a crime, as you mentioned, you had better build one hell of a large jail. I have never made the claim that Bush is the sharpest pencil in the barrel. He hires people and expects them to know what they are doing and do it. I feel he has shined in certain areas and failed miserably in others. Why did he say that? Of course, I have no idea. He could have either deliberately lied or just been confused and screwed up. If it was a deliberate lie, I have no idea what he was supposed to gain from it. Normally, when someone lies, they do it for some reason beneficial to them in some way. I see no way saying that was beneficial, one way or another. I can't answer your question. Be that as it may, my question remains the same, which I haven't received an answer to. Armed with that information, what could he have done in those two days to prevent the destruction that was to come? What exactly is the importance of that info so shortly before the hurricane was to hit? I'd sincerely like to know. Nagin was the one who failed, or refused, to conduct needed evacuations. Should Bush have called Nagin and said "Evacuate your city now!!!" Nagin's excuse was that he couldn't get drivers for the buses from a workforce that "you can't even get to report for work on a sunny day". Would those drivers have magically appeared some way? My point remains the same. Info or not, I see no way the destruction was going to be avoided and I see no reason for Bush to be villified on this point. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Some people have the ability to think with an objective and unbiased mind... or should I say, very few people can do that. Well put, Balladeer. I am a fan of yours, indeed. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I thank you, sir. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: That's the point, Mike. The only reason to lie, it seems to me, would be if Bush knew he could have done more with the knowledge he was given. Only then would he feel the need to excuse his lack of action by a pretended lack of knowledge. Certainly he knows his resources better than you or I, and if he was convinced he had done all that was possible given those resources he should have felt comfortable saying so. Just as a fer instance? And only because you raised the issue? I wonder if President Bush knows anyone capable of driving a bus? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! Yes, I'm sure he does...and I'm sure Nagin did, too. After all, he's counting on those workers who don't show up to rebuild the chocolate city. At any rate, Nagin should have used the buses, levee warning or not. A level 4 hurricane aimed at your nose is plenty reason enough!No, we don't know all of the national resources but we are both reasonably wise individuals - you moreso than I - and I'm sure that you can come up with some ideas on how the admin could have done more based on this beforehand declaration, if there are any, not in a Monday morning scenario but going back to a pre-hurricane mode of thought.....not more things they could have done but more things they could have done because Bush was told the levees could be topped. In other words, what would Bush know he could have done with that information to make him want to lie about having it? I'd be interested in hearing them... |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
In legal parlance isn’t a hurricane considered an act of God; yet He seems to have never been on the hook. Why isn’t anyone holding Him responsible? |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Good point John! The President and the entire national government certainly has faults. But, Mr. Bush also has many more responsibilities than supervising a local city government and ensuring that they perform their own responsibilities to their citizens. While you can't excuse any level of government for the shortcomings in New Orleans, the president's first responsibility is to protect the country. It is the resposibility of the mayor to look out for the welfare of his constituents. The failures there and over many years of pissing away the money that was supposed to have beefed up the levees is the real culprit here. Contribute about 90% of the culpability to New Orleans and Louisianna corruption in government. I have many relatives in the NO area and as much as I love the city and state, that's just how I see it. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Mr. Bush left his ranch in Crawford to personally see to the welfare of one single U.S. citizen, Terri Schiavo. He left his ranch in Crawford while Katrina was barrelling down on New Orleans to raise campaign funds. Iraq, Katrina, Harriet Miers, Dubaigate, deficit spending, trade deficits, it's a pattern, and legacy, of incompetence. Objective thinking is not signified by rallying around a politician or a party like it's a sports team. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
 I'll be back. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Reb, I'll agree that he certainly could have looked more presidential but, other than that, I don't see your point. With Katrina barreling down on New Orleans what more could he have done to prevent the destruction that was to come? No one has answered that yet. Is your point that he didn't posture well? I'll agree. As far as your third line is concerned, I can create a similar string on Clinton - and add a few. In actuality, I don't think we have ever had a president where a non-supporter could not come up with the same type of statement. What your points have to do with Bush and the landfall of Katrina on New Orleans, I have no idea but I still find it strange that some have so much more anger at Bush than at either the hurricane, Nagin or Blanco. I attribute it to politics instead of unbiased thought. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
What could he have done? The thing that makes bile rise from my stomach, my fingers tremble as I type, and my blood boil with rage while I just cry, Mike, is that we will never know. What we do know is that President Bush did nothing at all--oh wait, I forget. He assured state and local officials that all of the Federal governments resources were in place to assist the victims of this catastrophe. If that was all the assistance at the disposal of our government, then we are in some serious trouble. I'll give one example--a request for the obvious was denied Mayor Nagin. Rubber rafts. Very simple, but very obvious, and very denied and very much on record. The reason that request was denied was that rubber rafts do not have the capability to maneuver safely through debris in a storm flood type of situation. Somebody oughtta tell that to people who put their babies in ice chests and pulled them to safety, sometimes swimming like horses crossing a river. And yanno? I am so ridiculous. It doesn't matter what I say. Your minds are made up, and I am beginning to feel a twinge of condescension when I talk to people regarding what I feel are obvious facts about the negligence and the bumbling fumbling ineptitude of not just the Federal government, but YES, the ridiculous fence straddling of Governor Blanco as she tries not to burn Federal bridges, and Nagin's much publicized look of shock and indignation when he said he had been "misled" regarding the factual extent of how much previous knowledge the branch of government with the most power had at its disposal. President Bush lied, on several occasions, and the only answer I can get regarding that is the old "President Clinton" war cry of indignation regarding his much overblown (can I say that?  ) lie regarding his sexual escapeds.President Bush lied to us before Katrina--he lied about a WAR issue. So yes, do go ahead and bring up President Clinton, but keep in mind that President Clinton was impeached for what he did. I'm waiting for some parity here. Impeach ALL of the lying bastards. I think that would be fair. So yes, just pat me on the head, and say, "poor Karen--she's obviously in the rage stage of post traumatic stress/nervous breakdown." Disregard my words, because, after all, it's difficult for me to be objective being so close to the situation. . . . Everyone wondered at my silence after the storm, and when a friend of mine asked, I told him that I understood now why war veterans don't talk much when they come home from battle. I finally understand that there are some instances in life that will never be understood unless you were there. Funny tho, generally, in court, those who are eye witnesses are called to testify and I find my judgement being called into question because I am "too close to be objective." And now there are people I need to thank, because, nodding, some saw that I needed help and stepped up and man of man, because of that help, I survived not one but TWO catastrophes. Ya'll tend to forget about Rita. And yanno? I will tell you all now what outraged me the most about this thread, and although it allowed me to vent some rage and those who should remain culpable for thier inactions, the thing that got me the most was the initial post. I felt that Jaimie's comment regarding "How long?" was insufferable and comparable to complaining about how much noise someone makes as they die. Jaime--for you I repeat, if our suffering and misery is too much for you to bear--then by all means, turn your attention elsewhere--winter is coming on in Pakistan and I understand there are children there who might need coats for the winter. And  May I have the strength not to return to this thread. I'm really not supposed to get upset. And typing that gave me the first laugh I have had in two days. Poor Karen.  "How long?" We'll figure that out when it's done. "What could the government have done?" We are never going to know, now are we? We can't roll tapes back and do it again and the dead are going to remain dead too.  |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The most important thing that we do know that the President could have done is what any competant manager does -- ask questions. What do we do if the levies are topped? How are we getting people out of there? Are there enough resources? What resources are available? Who are the likely people to be left behind and what resources will they need? How fast can we move additional resources into position? What happens if another storm comes in right behind this one? How do we rescue rescue workers? How do we get power restored? Who is taking care of -- fill in the blank.. Brownie -- do you have what you need to get this done? Is there anything else we can be doing? What kind of beuracratic logjams do I need to open up? The difference between Bill and George is that when Bill was enmeshed in his own personal crisis -- America was content to let him run the country but didn't want to drink a beer with him. America still thinks George would be a great guy to invite to Sunday potluck -- but 65% don't have confidence that he is competent to run a 7-11. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Excellent questions, Reb...the exact questions Nagin and Blanco should have been asking and acting upon. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Karen, after reading your last comment I am not going to take the chance that any more words of mine will upset you further so I will bow out. That is something I would never want to do and I offer my apologies to you if that has occured. I wish you the best... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I think that's the wrong question to ask, Mike, and it's almost certainly directed at the wrong people if you want fact instead of conjecture. No one expects a politician to avert a natural disaster, any more than we expect them to part the Red Sea. When they lie to us, though, we should ask them why they lied, and I think that leads to the inevitable question of what THEY think they could have done to help minimize the suffering if not the destruction. If they have to make excuses, I'm going to assume something needs to be excused. quote: So? Personally, I think Charles Manson was more dangerous than Jeffrey Dahmer, and I'm convinced Stephen King is a better writer than Dean Koontz. That doesn't mean I'm going to give Dahmer a free pass or King a Pulitzer Prize. Comparisons are irrelevant in such decisions. quote: Mike? I didn't vote for Nagin or Blanco. Nor will I be given the opportunity to NOT vote for them. Those guys are someone else's responsibility. George Bush is ours. |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
Mike?... for the life of me, I can't understand your need to repeatedly drag Clinton into this... this is not ABOUT Clinton... it's about the current administration and it's gross incompetence... It's about the fact that, as a result of that incompetence, TOO MANY PEOPLE DIED... I don't know about you, but the 'he/she did it first' excuse just doesn't fly with me... I don't care of 100 presidents lied first... that does NOT make it right... Could ALL of those lost have been saved?... likely not... could more have been saved than were?... I have no doubt in my mind that, indeed, they could have... I believe MANY more could have been saved... both before AND after Katrina and then Rita hit... The 2 days that you keep referring to may not have been enough time to build a stronger levee system, but it was most certainly enough time to get more people OUT... Unfortunately, our President is either too incompetent or just didn't care enough (or both) to make that happen... Balladeer said: Obviously, 'Deer, he could not have stopped Katrina from making landfall... nor could he have prevented the material destruction caused... but he most certainly COULD have done more to prevent the LOSS OF LIFE and to help those affected get back on their feet... Also... I keep hearing mention of 'logical thinking'... and JCP even made mention of Mike teaching 'Logic 101'... but in my opinion, there appears to be a MUCH greater need here for a class in 'Compassion 101'... You can politicize this all you want... you can choose to apply 'logical thinking' to the situation... but at the end of the day, this is still about PEOPLE... people who deserve our understanding, our compassion and our support... |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Yeah, Ron! Yeah Vicky! Yeah Reb! And Karen, especially yeah you (if you see thisi)! Personally, I'd be willing to chip in a little on a trip for Jaime and a couple of others down to the New Orleans' Ninth Ward so he/they can get a first hand look at "how long."!!! Jaime, just in case you're interested, here's a little description of what you might see on your trip. http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060304/OPINION01/60 3040312/1035/OPINION It could be...that the reason more is not being done there is that this country is spending so much time and effort rebuilding the infrastructure of Iraq? [This message has been edited by iliana (03-05-2006 07:51 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
The 2 days that you keep referring to may not have been enough time to build a stronger levee system, but it was most certainly enough time to get more people OUT... Good grief! Yes, Vicky, it WAS enough time to get more people out so why didn't NAGIN do it????? He was the one to do it, along with Blanco. So why didn't they??? Unfortunately, our President is either too incompetent or just didn't care enough (or both) to make that happen... You win. I give up....It was Bush's incompetence that didn't allow people to be evacuated...so be it. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I know. I just have this inability to shut up. But WHY do they want him protected? Is there nothing the man can't do to lose respect? (insert grin)? The initial post of that thread offended me so deeply... During one of my hospital stays, I woke one morning to find my roomate had requested another room. Apparently my moaning and writhing in pain interrupted her sleep. That's what that reminded me of, and I can't believe that this continues. The last time politics upset me this much David Duke was campaigning for governor. I lost friends over that, and I'm trying very hard here, to compartmentalize and not do that again. I really do have a lot on my plate--smile, there's someone living in my livingroom now. My mother in law. She lost everything. I wish they could see, just once, how she looks at four a.m. when she wakes not knowing where she is, then her anger, even as I try to comfort her, I know that at that moment she hates my guts just because she is not "home"--and then her tears as she apologizes, it just breaks my heart and cements my rage. Shame on all of them (insert grin). I need to take a picture of her. She wants me to, too. She got a big kick out of being on the "Intranet." when she was listed as a refugee. She will get a bigger kick out of seeing her pic online, so smile, yeah, I have to try to write something real nice for her. Her name is Bettie and she is 78 years old, and even with a broken hip she can outrun ME. So y'see? even through all my "whining"--I know I'm blessed. She lived one block off of Lake Ponchartrain too and the government offered her 11 thou for her slab. Smile. She's decided to wait for one of those "asshole developers" to see if they buy out the neighborhood, to put a high rise "conderminimum" in its place. She "ain't got nuttin' but time no how." Thanks. You're right. Trying to talk to people about anything regarding Bush is like waiting for a man who beats you to "be sorry". shaking my head affectionately, k * * * And btw? I have company right now--I"m cooking supper while we watch the Academy Awards. We don't know why we are watching, we haven't seen any new films for well over a year. But when they saw how angry I was from getting up from computer, they asked me what was up. So I told them. If you think I am angry you should have heard them. Especially my 78-year old mother-in-law. This little session also prompted my brother-in-law to go home and retrieve what was left of the flag that once waved proudly over the home he and my sister shared. Take a good look.  If you look very closely, you will see that Katrina blew some of the stars out of the flag... And that is what frightens me the most. * * * And yes, this is about PEOPLE. So Mike? You are still my hero, and I feel a need to tell everyone that you were a first responder, too. Thank you for your help, and your heart, as we all take the time to consider what the hell has happened that politics has taken a front seat to the people of OUR United States. And OH. Smile. Bettie says "Hello, and thank you too." |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Sorry for the size of the photo. grin...kinda matches the size of the storm tho, eh? oh well... I tend to take up too much space.  |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
/pip/Forum94/HTML/001831.html I am unable, or unwilling, to offer any other comments here beyond a link to what my heart and mind just wrote, as I FEEL too much of the pain contained within the realities of some who are a major part of this thread. |
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Tracey Member Elite
since 2001-08-29
Posts 2808where insanity meets breeding |
God bless you Karen. I don’t know who has culpability in this crisis, as I’m much too far away to pretend to know. From what I have read, it seems there is plenty of blame at the local, state, and federal camps. I just thank God that you are safe, but I feel for the loss of friends and way of life that you have experienced. You have had to find a strength that the rest of us don’t know if we could have mustered. Love and hugs to you, your mother in-law, and your family…I don’t know where you find the strength, but I thank god that you do. You can never win or lose |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smile... another first responder, folks.  Thank you Tracey. Bettie was waiting for a reply. This stuff amazes her, and so much of her amazes meWe can all do a better job of and in life, I think. grin I'm sure making that a personal goal, anyhow. |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
Karen?... Bettie is beautiful... *smile* I wish I could hug her... and you too... and the sight of that flag?... just breaks my heart... What a story it tells... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
what so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming...  Hi Bettie! Glad you and OUR flag are still here. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
hugging Bettie and the remnants of that flag such a sad reminder of what has been lost |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
What a wonderful picture of Bettie! Kacy's comments -- sadly perfect. ...jo |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Karen, give Bettie my very best. If she can still smile and hold up the flag like that, that alone speaks volumes. There may be stars missing but I know where two of them are....you and her. Bless you both  |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Thank you for posting Karen, and answering what you could indeed answer. Sometimes you just have to be there, and the answers we seek will never be known. This was one of those times, of course it was. How long? Until some lies get answered I guess. Until someone feels at ease there, so right there that tells me the answer to that question. This is now part of history, and a very sad, sad part. Bettie, you look just like you sound! LOL, and you just wait until I lift you off that ground, and give you a squeeze. Now all I can picture is you telling someone to move their car when it's blocking yours. Karen, you explain! Good Morning New Orleans! |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
serenity: If you only knew how much I wish I could reach through this monitor and hug both you and Bettie. *S* As for Rita... you know... Katrina broke my heart... Rita ripped it out. But... the death toll from Rita would be so much higher if Katrina had not taught such harsh lessons. Homes were torn apart, forests were devastated... but the counties and parishes in the direct path had an almost 95% evacuation. Some won't go, no matter what... but... no one was left behind. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The grave concerns raised in the meeting were that the levees could be "topped". What wasn't discussed or "imagined" was that the levees would breach, totally fail, and cause the level of distruction that happened. No lie. I can't imagine a more compassionate person than Balladeer. I don't see that presenting the facts concerning culpability diminishes his concern for the victims. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Beneath it all is the the indifference of a vast amount of water. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Denise, if you're looking to be Mike's bodyguard, I'm afraid the job is already taken. By ME. I believe way back when Open Poetry was in single digits, I sorta claimed that job as my own. (I know WRASTLIN' moves yanno! )Can't blame ya for tryin' tho...it is a very nice body to guard. And Mike? Bettie says give us a call anytime. She loves to talk, and would love to "meet" you. She was very proud and happy to show everybody how grateful she is to be a citizen of the United States. So no...laughing, I wasn't trying to flog Balladeer with a little old lady and a flag. She WANTED to do it. She's ALIVE and damned happy about it. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! Bettie sounds like a woman after my own heart. What a wonderful outlook to have after having gone through so much. She is what I call a true American. Tell her a call is definitely on the way. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Laughing here too. She's been waiting. She was pretty confident that you'd want to call her. grin She wants me to tell you that she is the former Lake Ponchartrain Jitterbug Champion--1948! And nope, folks, I do not make this stuff up.  *peace to all* |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Now I'm really impressed!  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I'm too old for wrastlin, Karen, and I don't think Mike needs me as a bodyguard anyway, even if I wernt too old! The only points of my post were that Bush did not lie (different catastrophes were being discussed..."topping" verses "breaching"...hence...no lie) and to try to clarify what Michael was saying about the respective roles of the local, state and federal governments. He's right. And his pointing that out, the proper respective roles, does not diminish his compassion. |
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Tracey Member Elite
since 2001-08-29
Posts 2808where insanity meets breeding |
Balladeer and Bettie dancing the jitterbug ... now this I wanna see!!! Woohoo!!! Sounds like Bettie was quite a fiery lady in her younger days, and most certainly still is today. Give her a hug for me Karen You can never win or lose |
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