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Heart of a Daddy, Soul of a Soldier {{new and improved}}
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Heart of a Daddy, Soul of a Soldier {{new and improved}} |
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xopoetxo Junior Member
since 2007-06-15
Posts 14 |
Heart of a Daddy, Soul of a Soldier A naive man, College bound and young, Drafted to the army, Just looking for some fun. Shipped across the world, To a place so scarcly know, To fight for his country, And his right to come back home. A sargent stood at the door, I knew something was wrong, With an expression so stern, The end of a soldier singing its song. A very loved Daddy and a man newly wed, Was in a roadside bomb and pronounced to be dead. His little boy will never know why his Daddy is gone and the world so cold, Leaving his baby just 6 months old. Leaving a wife broken and a mother torn to bits, The question is why, All he was full of is life, love and wits. So many years he had left to stand tall, His wife knew him well, His son not at all. The church gives support, The town gives them heart, But what he left behind was great, And over his family would have to start. Why he was chosen, The world will nt know. Gone but not forgotten, From our hearts he wont go. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I'm afraid you lost me with some poor grammar and mispelled words. (sargent--sergeant?) and hey, I had to look that up too. But it might flow better for me if the grammar was cleaned up, and the ideas presented with a bit more logical sequencing. Here-- "Shipped across the world, To a place so scarcly know," I think I would have opted to be shipped around the world. Across registers the world as a flat image to me. Toss an "n" on that "known" and again, (scarcely) I know that seems like nit-picking, but I find it distracting when this stuff happens--it sends me into proof-read mode and I lose sight of your subject. A little clean-up, maybe?  |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Tragic event, terrible poem. It's dead by line three. There's no draft. Bang. Poem over. "To a place so scarcly know," Gramatically, it might might be a "place scarcely known," but even grammar wouldn't help to fix the logic. Iraq is hardly unknown. It's on TV every night. It just goes on like this. "Was in a roadside bomb and pronounced to be dead." He wasn't "in" a roadside bomb. The bomb killed him, but he wasn't "in" it. He as pronounced dead; "to be" adds nothing. "His little boy will never know why his Daddy is gone" What, the little boy isn't going grow up and nobody is going to tell him what happened to his Dad? Etc. Etc. This poem, not the sentiment, might best be set aside. Jim |
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xopoetxo Junior Member
since 2007-06-15
Posts 14 |
thanks for the suggestions. im not an expierenced poet like that, thankyouverymuch. im not really trying for the poem but the message it gives |
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xopoetxo Junior Member
since 2007-06-15
Posts 14 |
Heart of a Daddy, Soul of a Soldier A naive man, College bound and young, Drafted to the army, Just looking for some fun. Shipped around the world, To a place so scarcely know, To fight for his country, And his right to come back home. A sargeant stood at the door, I knew something was wrong, With an expression so stern, The end of a soldier singing its song. A very loved Daddy and a man newly wed, Caught in a roadside bomb, Just minutes later pronounced dead. His little boy will never know what took his Daddy, and why the world is so cold, Leaving his baby just 6 months old. Leaving a wife broken and a mother torn to bits, The question is why, All he was full of is life, love and wits. So many years he had left to stand tall, His wife knew him well, His son not at all. The church gives support, The town gives them heart, But what he left behind was great, And over his family would have to start. Why he was chosen, The world will nt know. Gone but not forgotten, From our hearts he wont go. ok i fixed it up a little bit. maybe its a little better? like I say, this isnt supposed to be wayy advanced stuff... just for a teenage poetry contest..... but thanks for your advice and comments |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"To a place so scarcely know" Interesting way of wording. Some Middle English texts oft do away with n on participles such grown, known, etc. Sometimes, it seems, even for the sake of the rhyme. Here is an example from The Owl and the Nightingale: Þo stod on old stok þar byside, Þar þe vle song hire tyde, And wes myd ivi al bigrowe: Hit wes þare vle erdingstowe. "Then stood an old stock therebeside Where the owl sang her tide And was with ivey all begrow It was the owl's dwelling-stow. Here begrow "grown over with, covered" is used instead of begrown. |
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xopoetxo Junior Member
since 2007-06-15
Posts 14 |
yeah... i was thinking about that. known would go too, but know sounds.... just, better maybe?? suggestions anyone? |
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stargal Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352OR USA |
There is no draft at the moment (as Oceanvu2 pointed out) and the poem doesn’t exactly state this is here and now and so, is it? If it is now, why not simply state Iraq? “A very loved Daddy and a man newly wed” How can you say he is loved when next you say the child is not old enough to remember him? Yes, you could use the argument that he is a dad and his wife loves him so he is then a “loved daddy” but it is a bit sketchy. Toward “know” vs. “known”, I prefer the “known”, not necessarily that it sounds better to me but because of choices made, it seems to go with the wording used in the rest of the poem. Stargal~ "The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away" @-->--- |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Hi XO, really good poem about WW11, your use of bad grammar and spelling enhanced your poem about the seventh grade drop out that save our ass when he stormed that beach on D-day. He never owned a computer, he never tasted a pizza ; but I say thank you long forgotten soldier and daddy. "His little boy will never know why his Daddy is gone" I like that line, because the WAS don’t always answer the WHY. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: What, you didn’t get enough suggestions already? In your mind you seem to think you can fix the entire piece by re-configuring a single word, based on one archaic example. In this case its simply impossible--you can’t turn this into anything worthwhile with only an elementary knowledge of basic poetic form. The entire piece, as has already been suggested, should be set aside. Suggesting anything more is probably a waste of time, though I will: Try reading samples of real poetry before attempting to write it. Sid |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ In your mind you seem to think “ XO, now that they can read your mind, you may want to consider ... |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: You may wish to consider, you've misread that which you've quoted, as absolute. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“In your mind you seem to think you can fix the entire piece by re-configuring a single word, based on one archaic example.” What part of that sentence did I not understand ? |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
Q: quote: A: The syntactical correlation of one simple word. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Rus, I'm here to learn, so feel free to embarrass me by telling that simple word, cause I ain’t got a clue. SEEM ? [This message has been edited by chopsticks (11-24-2007 11:23 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, if you can make it through that hazing, you can pretty much make it though anything we can dish out. But let's take the suggestion seriously. quote: So what? Writing a better poem has its own value. Speaker: who is he? Daddy: what kind of person was he? Time: When do the events take place?When was the poem written (in poetic time, not real time)? Place: Where was the poem written (see above)? Where did the event take place? Goal: it seems clear that it is a kind of eulogy. If you can post this stuff here, they form the background, not the poem itself, you may or may not put any of this information in there, but it should help avoid some of the problems you are having right now. Sound good? |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ok i fixed it up a little bit. maybe its a little better? like I say, this isnt supposed to be wayy advanced stuff... just for a teenage poetry contest..... but thanks for your advice and comments” This quote plus the poem is prima facie evidence. I think SB critique was good and to the point. In football there is a penalty for what you guys did its called( piling on), right SB I don’t mean right about what I am saying but right about the penalty. The preamble to CA says in-depth critiques NOT in-death critiques Btw Essorant, I don’t think your post was piling on at all. Brad, your post was after the crucifixion, so no harm no flag. [This message has been edited by chopsticks (11-25-2007 10:08 AM).] |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: Let’s see, that leaves three remaining posters fitting your criteria of “piling on,”…hmmm, who could they be? If all you want on this forum are the most patronizing comments, then CA has indeed still failed to grasp the significance of Brad’s approach in “Enough”. This is besides various former threads which proffered a similar approach. If yours will be the criteria of the status quo, then I for one ask: Why bother? Sid |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“If all you want on this forum are the most patronizing comments” Sid, it don’t matter what I want. It was obvious by the poet’s own words that the poet was an inexperienced teenager . Serenity‘s, critique was not patronizing and I think any seasoned poet could see that. When appropriate, our critiques should be tempered with mercy and you shouldn't need me to tell you that. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Is there anybody who doesn't see real problems with the poem? We can help to fix those problems, but it's in the hands of the poet now. We'll just have to wait and see. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: With mercy? What the hell does that mean exactly? That we should scale the depth of our critique; lighten the sincerity, Or perhaps add a LOL after every line in order to cause undue distress upon the more sensitive--and base it all on the age of the author? If some--be they teens or overly sensitive adults among us--are not ready for in-depth analysis, why not just encourage them to post in Open? Why encourage the serious critics to be inconsistent in their critiques based merely on a person’s age. You’re right of course: I don’t need you to tell me that. Perhaps someone else would though, while at the same time attempting to explain your quixotic remarks. Sid |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“With mercy? What the hell does that mean exactly?” What in the hell do you think it means exactly ? If you have to ask, you will never know. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Part of me wants to stop this right now and part of me thinks it's the sincerest form of flattery. And I'm still waiting for the poet to chime in. Has anybody heard of this apparently now archaic form of communication called e-mail? At any rate, good hunting! |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Heart of a Daddy, Soul of a Soldier A naive boy was College bound and young. He was Drafted to the army and he might find some fun. Shipped around the world, and in a place of scarcely known, He fought for his country And the right to go home sound. When a sergeant stood at the door I knew something went wrong. With an expression so stern, He informed that he was gone. How was a brave young boy singing his last song? A very loving Daddy and a man of newly wed caught in a roadside bomb was soon pronounced dead Leaving his baby just 6 months old and leaving his wife A broken heart so cold. And his mother was torn to bits as the news was unfold. His little chubby boy will never know the truth of what took his Daddy's life and why the world is so cold. The question was how we all understood. A life full of love A mind full of wits A man stood so tall His wife knew him well. But his son knows him not. The church gave support and the town gave their hearts to his beloved family that was seen still as great. His family would again have to start wondering why he was chosen. Someday, the world may forget But in our heart he'll stay forever as a brilliant young vet. This is how I read |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Brad As the moderator it seems you ought to have something certain to say about whether Sid's harsher critique is appropriate, even though it was posted to someone that seems to be a less experienced teenager. I have mixed feelings about it. Is harsher or milder critique equally acceptable/appropriate at any time in this forum, or not? How do the critics know? How do the poets know? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The ground rules are simple: 1. No personal attacks. 2. No profanity. Other than that, I'm going to wait for the poet to contact me (Here or by e-mail) before I do anything. For all I know, the poet thinks this is funny -- and to some extent it is. The most popular posts are almost always regulars arguing among themselves. Fine, argue away. If the poet is annoyed, tell him to talk to me. Otherwise, enjoy the fray. [This message has been edited by Brad (11-26-2007 04:27 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't have any problems with that. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Essorant? I don't think it's Brad (or Pete's) responsibility to try to judge a work according to age--in fact, I've known a number of teens who would knock your shocks locked--so I'll get offended for them. I appreciate the intent of kindness, but I don't think anyone posting here should expect that age be a consideration. (We really don't know, afterall.) That said, I'll address the poem--again--and say that if punctuation is in doubt--LEAVE IT OUT. (and hey, I'm an over-user abuser too) (Use centering seldom. I know, I know, it looks cleaner, but . . . it isn't. Ellipses also suck, and it sucks more spaced out like I just did.) I think with a lot of help, you've managed to get much of the spelling cleaned up, but keep in mind how much of a distraction it was this time, and post as clean as possible next time. (I still screw up, and yes it drives me nuts, but I will edit until they tell me STOP IT.) Look for stuff like grammar--noun verb disagreements--write in the same tense throughout--at least for NOW--and triple check your punctation when you do use that. (Damn--that's not bad advice--I'll go copy and paste that five hundred times!) I like what you are doing, and admire your courage to come here and get it right. That tells me that the subject is important to you, and you get triple respect from me. *daps* (We're allowed *daps*--ain't we?)  If we're not? *double-daps*  And oh--one more thing--your subject is deep and sensitive--and it's a good thing to choose deep and sensitive subjects, but keep in mind that you have to show extra depth and sensitivity when you write on such, k? I care too. So hugs.  *triple daps* |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
omg WAS SOMEBODY RUDE? well smack me with a half-done pancake! (That smarts, for ya'll who don't know) it's all yours braderick I'm going to bed. Over there---> g'nite or mornin' and yup there's my cat (which is not actually MY cat) but Buster wants me to go to bed too and normally, I'd say no, just 'cause they call him Buster but I am tired.   <--watch...it will go slower after seven-point-nine minutes...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Tomtoo, that was a grand interpretation, bravo. Brad, this has been ridicules as some things are self evident . I will have no more to say and don’t even want to have the last word. (We really don't know, afterall.) SB,In this case we really did know Have a nice day. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Chops, thank you!!! You are always kind and polite. Love ya. Tomtoo |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
C'mon, Ess -- Just continue to you use your head. Of course! Brad's, Sid's" or any one else's comments in a cranky mode need to be taken with a grain of salt. There is no way to keep anyone, teenager or old guy like me, from posting here. All you can do, and you DO do it, is address the POSTER, as well as the POEM, with the human insight you can bring to it. I'm extrapolating from what I see on this site, that the majority of posters in the multiple Poetry threads are, ah, children. There is no point in hurting anyone if they stumble in to C/A by mistake or delusion. Older folk can either atempt to teach, which involves supporting intent as well as wielding a switch, or choose not to teach and, uh, let it ride. Letting something ride doesn't need to indicate approval or disapproval, all it implies is an unwillingness on the part of a partucular potential respondent to enter into a particuar dialogue. In this particular case, I get the feeling fom the thread, that the poster was interested, primarily, with helping prepare a poem for a teenage poetry contest. This kind of use of this forum, and this particular post, is IMHO, inappropriate. Happens all the time. So, what are ya gonna do, pull out the switch, fluff it off, or leave it alone? And what does one do when the poster, who dropped out of the thread early on, makes a remark such as (paraphrased) "I'm really not interested in the poetry part, just the message." Aargh! Jim [This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (11-30-2007 02:03 AM).] |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“There is no way to keep anyone, teenager or old guy like me, from posting here.” There may be, if you completely demoralize some teen with a blood sucking critique, they may not be back. That is not your game plan is it ? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Then again, people may use their "encourage critiques" message a bit more carefully too, to express what kind of critique they would like. For example Chopsticks' message: "no pain no gain,socket it to me." It doesn't sound like looking for mild critique. I still think this would be a good idea. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No, it wasn't appropriate at all. It's not a question of mild vs harsh critiques....it's a question of critiquing the poem and not the poet. His comments crossed the line from critique to personal insult. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
A bit more specificity might help here. In particular: Who? Which comments? Which particular lines according to PIP rules were crossed? How were they crossed? Sid |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ Then again, people may use their "encourage critiques" message a bit more carefully. “ Essorant you are so right but hindsight is 20/20 I should have said, ( No pain no gain, socket it to the poem ) |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Rus , I didn’t think your critique was all that demoralizing , you just happened to take it on yourself to pick up the gauntlet. The one I thought was over the top: “ Tragic event, terrible poem. It's dead by line three. There's no draft. Bang. Poem over.” If I had remembered what my English teacher said long ago, I may not have posted my Reply. He said, when you read something say two things, SO WHAT AND SAYS WHO. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
You’re still speaking in subjective terms here. I may have picked up the gauntlet on this one but I happened to agree with Jim because he was only repeating what I have said on previous threads. It’s a matter of maintaining consistency. Speaking for myself, I see no need to grade on any kind of curve in this forum. And since there are already Teen Forums out there, where peer validation is handed out on a daily basis, why should anyone here feel the need to critique in a kinder, gentler manner simply because of their age? According to Brad’s Rule # 6: If you dislike a poem, you must say it. Some of us, if only by implication are doing just that. But beyond that, we are also stating why, when necessary to do so. Some poems however, simply don’t merit any explanation. Sid |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"No pain no gain, socket it to the poem " What's the difference? Whether you mention "me" or not, personal attacks shall not be accepted. I just mentioned your message because it seems to contradict your position a bit. If you don't want harsh critique it would be much better to use something that implies that, instead of something that suggests almost the opposite. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ Some poems however, simply don’t merit any explanation.” Sid, I don’t think any poem is so bad that it don’t merit an explanation. When we let one go down the page with a zero reply, I think we have failed to be human. I don’t think Brad was serious about rule # 6 : If you dislike a poem, you must say it. I think if he was serious he would have said --- If you dislike a poem, you SHOULD say it. Must is an absolute . Do you think Brad was serious about rule # 10: You must follow my rules as if they were the word of god.. TAXI |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Succinct if perhaps a little clinical but it’s definitely a legitimate comment aimed squarely at the poem rather than the poet and for what it’s worth pretty much bang on as far as I can see. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Yeah, kind of like covet in those really hard commandments at the end of that stone tablet thingey. quote: I was pretty sure I said a god, I'll have to check. How many people follow Zeus these days? At any rate, TM said it best: quote: Now, she doesn't mean it, I suspect that most people don't consciously think it (I do but I change my mind pretty quickly.). Had we received one clarification from the writer -- saying that this is an historically situated piece -- the whole discussion might have taken a different direction. We didn't. What little we did get seemed much more concerned with, "Is this okay?" I tried to contact him through e-mail and was met with silence. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, I don't think anybody else does either. But people are going to be offended no matter what I say, what we say, what anybody says. I was skimming through another site, in many ways even gentler than Open, and they still have people offended by jokes, attempts to break the stilted formality, and just about anything that can cause offense seems to and does cause offense. Enough (I already said that, didn't I?). Never again will I, nor do I want anybody else, bending over backwards to be kind when the result is nothing more than silence. Silence or incoherence. And if that means I have to post an 'Enough' comment every two or three months, then I'll do just that. Question: Does anybody know which thread finally set me off? And I am very happy with the direction we're heading in now. [This message has been edited by Brad (12-02-2007 06:54 AM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Here's my guess: /pip/Forum28/HTML/002058.html#000019 |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Not that hard, was it? |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Brad, I apologize you did say a god , but as a Christian I was blinded to the “a “ and by the same token as a Christian I wont be a bad boy on here any more. However, I think some of you must have had some fun or may of had some fun. Let me also explain MUST as an absolute: If I get a memo saying I must do something, that means it is mandatory. If I get a memo saying I should do something, that means it is recommended. This is hypothetical : If someone ask me do you think it is possible that Brad and TomMark are one and the same, I would say anything is possible. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: That means I could be Ron! I’ve always thought it strange that I’ve never seen both of us in the same place at the same time, it all makes perfect sense now I come to think about it.  |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
There must be an echo in here. Oh that is just Grinch. I hardly know you , but I don’t think you and Ron are the same. I think you are one of a kind and I mean that as a complement Please don’t steal Christmas this year. Are we fixing to start having fun again? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Chops, I am the Dark side of Sir Brad. Grinch, you are not Ron. You wrote better poems than him. Have a wonderful day, all of you. |
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