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A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697
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...what do you think? I plan on seeing it as soon as possible. Personally I think that all Mel Gibson is doing is portraying what is written in the Gospels. I don't feel that anything is anti Semetic.. considering that three of the four Gospels were written by Jewish men, I think it's sort of a rediculous claim. However, I haven't seen the movie. I don't feel like my opinion will change, however. Christianity is very clear in saying that we are all responsible for Christ's death. He died because we ALL sinned. Also, it is also made clear that Christ couldn't be killed! Christ is God... you can't kill God, nobody can. He gave Himself. Thats the whole point. I'd like to hear what you all think, though!  Oh, make me Thine forever |
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| © Copyright 2004 Erica N. - All Rights Reserved | |||
Ringo 
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
I am also going to see the show tomorrow night, and I plan on taking my teenage son to see it this weekend. Do I feel taht Mel or his movie are anti-semetic? Absolutely not... and none of the Jewish folks that I know feel that way. (Of course, none of them belong to the JADL). The absolute and total fact of the matter is that the ancient Jews handed Jesus over to be crucified. That is not being judgemental, or anti-semetic. That is stating an historical fact. The same as it is a fact that the German government of the 1930s and 1940s systematically executed the Jews in Europe. That does not mean that anyone who makes a movie about the horrors of the Holocost is anti-German. It is simply a statement and a retelling of the facts. Were Mel Gibson to be an anti-Semite, he would NEVER have been able to work in Hollywood as long as he has. If there was anti-semetism in his heart or on his mind, he would never have hired a very devout orthodox Jew to portray the mother of Jesus in his movie. I also feel he wouldn't have attempted to physically portray the Jews as accurately as he did. He could have always hired another good looking blue-eyed European to play the part. If the movie and Mel Gibson were anti-semetic, then why did none of the theological scholars that he hired as technical advisors, and as script advisors call him on it? Why did it take an ultra-liberal religeous organization with lagging membership and its own agenda to speak out? If the theological myths are true, as I believe them to be, then Jesus had deity-like powers and abilities and could have easily stopped the entire event from happening. Yet he didn't. As I understand it, He died for all of us.. including Jews, Muslims, Athiests, Taoists, Hindus, Shinto's and all of the others. With that in mind, I would make it to be OUR fault... not just the Jews, but also the Christians, and all of the others for whom He died. Anyone who attempts to denegrade this movie for their own purposes dishonors the self-sacrifice that was made 2,000 years ago. Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I don't go see it. It's just too visually bloody for me. The fact that it is the story of Christ doesn't seem to help. Graphic violence gets filed away in my mind and I have enough trouble sleeping without that sorta imagery filed away in my head. It's kewl tho. I read the book. |
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Tais Member
since 2004-01-28
Posts 92Ontario, Canada |
I will see it, but I don't know when. I need to find a time which I can go and see if there are still tickets left for those times. I've always liked movies of Jesus Christ. I saw those old movies of Moses that were filmed long ago...and the Easter movies which have come out in the past. I don't see the movie as 'bloody'. I see it as an historical event and most of all as a beautiful message. Jesus' spoke words of wisdom, words of justice and peace. I see our world of today, the politicians, so many people and groups ...as bloody. The wars, the pornography, the greed, the murders, the hunger, the lack of justice and peace...that is what I see as being bloody. To me...this movie is going to be very beautiful and I know I will cry tears of sadness and tears of joy...but most of all, I think I will feel 'rejuvenated' and 'spiritually renewed' as I do when I see those old movies about Jesus and the bible stories. The Passion of Christ is a true passion...and I hope the movie transmits that. I've heard good things, very good things of some poeple who saw the review. These people are friends...so I know they are telling me the truth. But the media only says things which are convenient to their bias way of thinking...so I don't go by what the media says. Yes...I will definitely see the movie: "The Passion of Christ". Tais |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
EVERYONE should see this movie...you walk away a changed person...and I think that is what Mel intended the movie to do. As for blood and violence....I don't see the point everyone else is trying to make...its no more gore etc.. than all the scary movies people go to watch or games people play with the computer or game systems. When you tell the truth about Jesus and what he suffered you can't tone it down..it has to be told like it is...how it happened..and Mel Gibson did a great job of it. I agree with Lovebug...I didn't see anything suggesting it was the Jews that did it..nothing of that nature was overbearing.. From what I have heard there is alot of gret miracalous things that has happened before and during the making of the movie...One..I heard that before making the movie..Mel Gibson was about to kill himself and was saved and felt to make the movie..two....a lady came from out of nowhere and told Mel and the crew that she was sent by God to pray for them...(she had no idea about the movie) ..also there were several healings that happened during the making of it. Mel has spent 30,000,000,00. of his own money to make it. I have heard nothing but great reviews...I recommended that this ine should not be missed! It really allows you to see and feel what Christ Jesus did for YOU..for us..for humanity..knowing he could have just called all of heavens angels to stop it..but he took on our pain..our suffering...he bore our sins..because he loves us..no love is greater than this..that lays down his life for you...PERFECT love.... Makes us all question our purpose here on earth..how selfish we are...how much we need to serve Christ and not ourselves... Yes it makes you look at yourself..down deep and you walk away from the movie..with a new..different feeling about your life and the lifes of others in the world.. ~ARH  love and hugs Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH |
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2writeis2be Junior Member
since 2004-01-11
Posts 45Live in London, but from TX |
I think I'll see that movie when it's out on DVD, mainly because Mel Gibson is HOT. I don't even believe in god, but shows what a good actor he is cuz he lures us all in. haha! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I like Mel. Like his work. Understand why he made this movie. Question how a cinematic portrayal of the passion as outlined in the Synoptic Gospels is specifically any more anti-semetic than say -- The Patriot or Bravehart - were anti-Anglo. I think the attempts to smear Mel and set him at odds with his father are abhorrent. A couple of other things I do have questions about though; Is the reaction on the evangelical side any more appropriate -- specifically -- merchandising the event and claiming this as a tool for evangelism? Is there a hint of idolatry in this? Is a two hour portral of Jesus last 12 hours going to inspire someone to follow the main tenets of Jesus? Namely -- is it going to incite anyone to love his enemy? If someone doesn't already know who Jesus was and what he stood for -- how is this particular, graphically violent, portion of his life going to make any difference? But, yes, I intend to see the film and look forward to it as well -- although it may not be any time soon. |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
I haven't yet seen the movie and I don't have the scriptural references at hand, but here's my two-tuppence worth; If Gibson wanted to avoid charges of anti-semitism, why did he have the Jewish crowd baying for Jesus' blood and taking the blame on themselves and their descendants, rather than the high-priests who - according to John's gospel - were the ones saying this? Is it Mel's reading of Mark's gospel and then conflating it with the high priests' utterances?? Anyway, this is all no more than bemused assertion. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
In the book of Matthew, the crowd was attributed with the line "Let His blood be on us, and our children". Matthew was Jewish. I'm sure that it HURT him to write such a thing. He was trying to provide an accurate depiction of what happened, however, and wanted to put in every detail, no matter how painful, in order to allow others to see what happened. I believe that, in his own way, that is also what Mel Gibson is doing. Jesus knew all of that would happen. He knew that He would be hated and despised by many many people. Not just some Jewish people... (remember, a HUGE majority of the first Christians were Jewish!) think of all of the people who persecute Christians today. These persecutors are of all races and creeds. They are hating and despising Jesus as well. What was said had nothing to do with a particular race or people... Jesus gave His blood to us. He knew that, yes, His blood would be put upon us ALL. WE ALL caused it.. but we are all CLEANSED by it. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
LoveBug My point of view is that being persecuted does not necessarily correspond to virtue or correctness - this rule can apply to any persecuted group. Yes, Christians are persecuted in various places, just as Jews have been persecuted since the Year Dot wherever they went; it does not validate their creed - we should look to other yardsticks to measure the worth of a creed (eg: did the founder provide a virtuous code and rise from the dead?). Yes, Jesus was persecuted too (and in a very graphic way), but so too in one sense was Karl Marx and the founder of the Bahai faith (tortured to death by persian muslim clerics). The chief virtue of Christianity does not, I would claim, reside in its aura of 'victimisation'. |
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Tais Member
since 2004-01-28
Posts 92Ontario, Canada |
I don't think it's anti-semetic at all. It's history, a true story. Why would the truth be wrong? In no way, do I consider the Jews responsible for Jesus' death. It is was in the scriptures, said by the prophets, that this would happen. It was 'planned' to happen...in order to save the souls of us humans. That's the whole reason of Jesus' death and ressurrection. The blood and violence, only shows a reality of what Jesus suffered. It's the truth. Why hide the truth? If we are to 'cover-up' certain things which is history, which really happened, we are saying that we should live in a fantasy world, where we should believe in lies. The Passion shows what happened at that time. To say it is bloody and violent and not looking at the 'reason' for all that suffering and not looking at Jesus' life, which led to this suffering, is absurd.Our world is bloody and violent today...just look around us and we will see this...and the bloodiness and violence today, has no reason to be. The Hollocaust movies show much more violence, blood and cruelty to us, and no one complains about that? It protrays all Germans as evil people. Which they are not. It rarely shows the German people who helped the people escape from the Natzis. Except for the movie "Shindlers list", which I thought was a great movie. But why doesn't any complain about the Holocaust movies as being anti-German? The Holocaust was horrible. But it did happen. And people need to know the truth, so I think the Holocaust movies needed to be shown. Even though it is bloody and violent. In this same line of thinking, the Passion also was true, and needs to be shown. And Jesus was Jewish too. So it shows a wonderful Jewish prophet, who suffered to save the world. And it also shows that the Romans made Jesus suffer and the Romans had the last word on Jesus' trial. Some people just can't stand to hear the word Jesus sometimes. Why? Is it a conscious thing? What about Buddah, Gandhi and other wonderful prophets and people? I think that Jesus' name should be honoured at least, as Jesus' being a wonderful person, even for those who have no religion of belief. What did he do wrong, which makes some people hate even the fact that His name is mentioned? Well...to me...as a Christian, Jesus is the Messiah. And remembering what He suffered for all of us, is important to remember. Tais |
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Tais Member
since 2004-01-28
Posts 92Ontario, Canada |
I also forgot to mention that I agree with some of the posts here, which said that lots of people, of all races and religions were persecuted in the past and still are. We humans have some type of 'evil' streak inside us, which makes us persecute others sometimes. So yes...many others died and suffered for the name of goodness. Or died and suffered because of prejudice or racism. The past, should teach us lessons. But we never learn, and continue to be prejudice and racist. A movie like the Passion, shows how our world does have evil and good. But evil and good is NOT of a specific race or religion. It is inside people, of any race and religion. In this movie, it shows evil in the form of a group of people, but also shows that that same group of people also have good. Jesus was Jewish, so were his followers and others who didn't want Jesus to die, but were not his followers either, and there were some of those who persecuted him...but some good were also Roman, and some Romans were also evil. Judas was Jesus' follower, but betryed him. So, right there, it shows that it is NOT a specific type of person, it could be anyone. Our duty is to see that racism and prejudice does not happen. In the movie, it shows the truth. Jesus and His followers wanted good to prevail in the world. But as there is good, there is also evil to try to combat the good. Our world is made of opposites and contrasts. And evil and good is one of them. It's a constant battle in the world and within ourselves. What is good? What is bad? That is up to each one to define. To me, any destruction of the human race or of any life form, would be bad. So racism and prejudice would be bad. To blame a certain race or religion for the persecution of people is wrong...in my opinon. There are good and bad in all races and religions. And there are fantatics also who make the religions look bad. The passion is a true story, it happened in History, and maybe even happened more brutally than the movie shows. The fact that Jesus was good, did good, taught goodness, already shows us that we should not blame anyone for this. We are 'all' to blame for all of the deaths of good people. Why? The simple fact that it is also happening today, and we don't do anything to try to make a difference, shows us how much we are to blame. To fight for justice, peace and goodness is an obligation of us all...it's not a choice. We cannot complain about things that happen around us, if we didn't at least try to make a difference. It will continue to happen, if we leave it up to others. The passion shows us this. Jesus died for us. Whether people have a belief or not, that is why Jesus accepted this destiny of suffering. So to give oneself for others, to save others, and to make a difference is the message which The Passion shows. And reality is that people will always try to stop the good actions of others. The heros end up dying, but not in vain. It's up to us, to win the battle within ourselves first, and then try to make a difference in the battle of the world of evil vs good. And we look back at all of the heroes, the prophets, the good people who died in the name of justice and goodness. And we should take their courage as an example of how we can make a difference. But we all need to care first. And not wait until it comes knocking at our doors...because it will, eventually. And when it does, it might be too late. Tais |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
(Reading the replies and feeling like Roger Rabbit in hiding and ready to burst as Judge Doom uses his cane to tap on the wall, shave-and-a-hair-cut-...) |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(laughing at Opeth) tah tah da ta da tah tah |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I think you missed what I was trying to say... I was saying that some Jewish people were involved in the perseution and death of Christ. So were some Romans. Christians are persecuted today by all different races. So, all of these different races and creeds that persecute Christians are persecuting Christ again. My point is that race has nothing to do with it. Some people did a certain thing in history, thats all. Europeans slaughtered American Indians, but you don't see western movies being accused of being "anti European" And again I say: we are ALL guilty of Christ's death Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
shave-and-a-hair-cut...  |
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Tais Member
since 2004-01-28
Posts 92Ontario, Canada |
What does 'shave and hair cut' mean? I am sorry, but I don't understand. I read the posts, I agree with Lovebug, and agree with some other posts... But what does "shave and hair cut' have to do with the post at all? I am lost with this statement...completely...please explain? Is it a term which I don't know of? I am very lost with some English statements sometimes because I've never heard them before. I didn't watch Roger Rabbit...I wasn't really interested in watching it, I don't like cartoons that much. But does Roger Rabbit have a message which has to do with the movie , "The Passion"? If it does, I would love someone to explain it to me...as I see no connection at all with a 'cartoon' and real life story movie. Tais Thanks |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Tais, roger rabbit has nothing to do with anything other than Opeth's remark intending to say he was restraining himself from joining the conversation. shave and a haircut was a tune that in the roger rabbit movie set roger off... Opeth was sinply saying he felt like reading the posts was the same for him... he was almost unable to refrain himself.. my comment simply meant to pick at Opeth in a funny sort of way. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Opeth, why not join in? It's not gonna hurt anyone! If you disagree with me.. thats alright, it'll be fun I like a good debate.Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Tais Member
since 2004-01-28
Posts 92Ontario, Canada |
Oh...ok! Thanks for explaining. I sometimes...often, don't understand statements in English because of my Portuguese background (Brazilian). Well..I learned a new statement today. Again, thanks for explaining it to me. And Opeth, please do join in. Opinions are very good for everyone to read. Not everyone has the same opinion and we all learn with different opinions. Tais |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
LMAO... careful what you ask for... if Opeth takes you up on the joining in, it may need to be moved to Philosophy forum and indeed become a debate of epic proportions.... shave and a haircut.... two bits..  |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"careful what you ask for... if Opeth takes you up on the joining in, it may need to be moved to Philosophy forum and indeed become a debate of epic proportions.... ~ How true that statement is! |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: Berengar, just curious, how would having the high-priests saying the line instead of the crowd saying the line insulate against charges of anti-semitism? They were Jewish too. I also don't think conflating was necessary. If one account credits the crowd and another credits the high-priests, I'd take it that both groups uttered the statement, and each writer perhaps recorded what he heard and/or what made the greater impression on him at the time. I think the anti-semitic charges are groundless. It is history, after all, and not just as recorded in the Gospels. Secular history also records it. But even if the Jews of that time could have been held particularly culpable, even if Christ had not said, "no one takes my life, but I lay it down of my own accord", even if we were not all responsible, even if Christ had not said, "Father FORGIVE them, they know not what they do", we could no more rightly blame the Jews of today for something their ancestors did almost 2,000 years ago, than we can rightly blame anybody of today for atrocities committed by their ancestors. But I can understand the fears of those who have experienced anti-semitism at the hands of the Church in the not too distant past, when the 'official' Church position was not that "we are all responsible", but did actually blame the Jews, and the unspoken implication was not officially dealt with until the last Vatican Council, I believe. So I think we have to be sensitive to those who are sensitive about it, because there is a history there too. Which is why Mel Gibson did edit out that part of the movie, if I heard him correctly, during a recent interview. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I'm going to try to get into a theatre tomorrow... but I was reading about the movie and it also includes a scene where many Jewish leaders are saying things like "this is unfair, this isn't right".... So, unlike what a lot of people are trying to say, there are indeed two sides to the story. I guess people go into something like this with their mind set on seeing something so much that they do see it... even if it isn't there. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Love Bug "Christians are persecuted today by all different races. So, all of these different races and creeds that persecute Christians are persecuting Christ" You're right, race has nothing to do with it, and may I add that races do not 'persecute' Christians, it's a meaningless term - or do you wish to argue otherwise? Denise "Berengar, just curious, how would having the high-priests saying the line instead of the crowd saying the line insulate against charges of anti-semitism? They were Jewish too." I love indulging your curiosity. It has little to do with the 'truth' of the matter and everything to do with perception. The high priests have been seen in a bad light anyway, as Machiavellian scoundrels and playing political games, as some people expect of priest-politicians. But to hear the common jewish people utter such lines reinforces, in some prejudiced minds, the notion that 'all' jews bear the responsibility for Christ's death and not just an amoral faction, and thence the need for discriminating between 'good jews and 'bad' jews becomes harder to do. As you say, we are not disputing the record, but the 'spin' that's put on it matters - therefore it's just as well Gibson chose to leave that line untranslated. Lol |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Why would I use a meaningless term? |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
http://www.persecution.org/ Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks for indulging my curiosity and clearing that up for me, Berengar. I didn't see it from that perspective since I didn't see the high-priests in that light. I guess I just always looked at them as deeply religious people with deeply held beliefs who acted out of those beliefs. But yes, I guess they could be seen as political and religious scoundrels just like we see abounding in today's society. And of course, races can't persecute. People within races persecute, which is what I am sure LoveBug meant. And, of course persecution happens against all kinds of people, not just Christians, but in some parts of the world it is mostly persecution of Christians that takes place, and it shouldn't surprise us because Christ said that we would be persecuted for his name's sake. But in a broader sense I believe any persecution of anybody, anywhere, is also persecution of Christ since he died for everybody. |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
LoveBug My point is not to deny that Christianity has, and is in many places, persecuted as a creed, nor is it to deny that racism has its own dynamic of persecution. What I disagree with (and maybe I'm misunderstanding you) is your statement that RACES (and creeds) persecute Christianity. Would you mind explaining this? Lol |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Denise Never saw your most recent posting, hence the repitition. Sorry. |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Denise While I'm on a roll... Do you see persecution as something to be endured/expected in defence of a very important principal, or as something virtuous in itself?? Abiding by Christ's lifestyle entails persecution (I agree),and, I would argue, is thereby bound up with the first form. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No, I don't see it as something virtuous in and of itself. I just see it as a reality. But compared with other areas of the world, we don't have it nearly as bad, at least not yet, anyway. And just like any other hardship in life, it can make us more virtuous, if we let it. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Sorry if I wasn't clear... I'm just trying to say that many different types of people persecute Christians, but it isn't fair to say that one or all of these races should have some kind of 'blame' because some of them do bad things. So if people want to say things like "Jews killed Jesus", well, many different types of people kill Christians today, so do you want to blame... well, every race for something like that? No. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
And just a side remark about persecution: Christ said that Christians would be persecuted.. "If they hate me they will hate you also".."You are not of this world so the world will hate you", esc.. so even though being persecuted doesn't mean you are right, Christians shouldn't be surprised when it happens to them. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
I saw the movie tonight, and figured that I would put in my couple of pennies. Very few movies, in my opinion, actually live up to the hype that is made in the press. This one more than lived up to it's reputation. When I first wal;ked into the theater, I did so with the intention of NOT geting caught up in uit and watching it to judge it for accuracy (or my version of it), and for the anti-semetic content. I also wanted to see what would set this apart from every other Christ movie I had ever watched, and how Mel was going to keep my interest while using long dead languages. That lasted about 15 minutes. After that, I became engrossed in the movie itself. And after about a half an hour, I forgot that it was in Aramaic and Latin with subtext. As the movie went on, I got pulled more and more into the film, until I was finally released shortly after the credits started rolling. While I was "involved" in the film, I was able to remain just disconnected enough to occasionally look around me and see what was going on. There weer a few things that I noticed that sets this experience far apart from any of the others I have had: In any movie there are people moving and shuffling around in their seats... I saw NONE of that during this film. Only 2 or 3 people out of a packed house left during the film... as opposed to a constant stream. After the movie was over, and the credits started to roll, NO ONE moved... It took almost 15 or 20 seconds for the first viewer to leave their seat. And then it wasn't the mass exodus that usually happens, and people kept looking back at the screen on their way out. Outside, as people were using the facilities, NO ONE was talking. Same thing in the hall as people were waiting for their wives/husbands/whomever. As for LR's question... I don't know if it would change anyone's mind that didn't already believe... I do know that it severly impacted the folks that saw it tonight, and I highly recommend it to everyone that is 15 or older. Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
shave-and-a-hair-cut............. I hope everyone has a nice weekend or whatever type of weekend you want to have! |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
LMAO Opeth you know you want to get in the middle of it.... you just know you do.. shave and a hair cut... two bits shave and a hair cut......... shave and a hair cut........ |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I just got back from the theatre.. Words can't express how it was. I feel it was a beautiful and truthful potrayal of the agony that Christ went through because of my sins. It was hard to watch but I almost felt guilty to turn away... He had to do it, I need to see it. Personally... I think it makes Romans out to be much worse than Jews, if you want to look at it that way. I didn't even think of it that way until the ride home... while the movie shows Jewish people weeping over His death, the Roman soldiers take joy in seeing His pain. Strange that nobody finds that offensive... I didn't find it offensive, although I'm part Italian, because thats how it was. Thats what happened. Its bad but... Jesus died for them too. I recommend this to everyone... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Opeth There is much sound and fury signifying nothing from some quarters... Bring it on ( and yes, I know what I'm asking for). We are all red blooded men and women... |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
LOL... would seem Berenger that the chip and challenge come with an ache... I always find a bit of ointment soothes those aches... and usually helps avoid stiffness later.. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Cpat...far be it from me to correct you - but I think you're four bits short |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
lmao.. deer.. only four bits? by golly I think you are right.... now that is a shame... I'm even forgetting to remember the old ditties... I do stand corrected sir.. and thank you... usually people say I'm about half a bubble shy... so to be only off four bits must be an improvement |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Ron Ache, Sir?? Who cares, when one is addicted to endorphins?? Lol |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Frivolity and banality have a place, but that place usually isn't in the middle of someone else's conversation. Off-topic comments deserve their own thread. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Gotta agree... |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
As i understand (so dont shoot the messenger here) from many american film reviewers of the major papers..the film is supposed to be about the love of Christ.(.Mr Gibson himself has said that is what he is trying to get across)..but according to the paper reviewers, he has patently failed...the film is almost bloody and gory in the extreme....they all agree that it is a film that will leave people shocked rather than calmed.... From the jewish point of view i understand that they are appalled by it..and at least several scenes needed to be cut from it for fear of anti-semitism..otherwise it would not have been put out...one of the scenes involved a jewish woman saying...''we all have his blood on our hands''..implying that the jews were directly responsible for his death....there are other areas still in the film where a council of jewish leaders are portrayed as condeming him to crusifixion....while strangely the film portrays Pilate as a weak roman leader ..easily dominated who is weak of mind. The jews argue that Pilate and ONLY Pilate had the orthority and jurisdiction to execute Jesus... the Jews could not, so on this analogy the whole basis of the film in the first place is based on a LIE... i understand that even the timing of it's release was perfect..Ash Wednesday....this film is supposed to be a non Hollywood film....and yet in true Hollywood style Pewter crosses on leather neck cords are for sale for around $13...so even though $30 milllion was personally put in by Mr Gibson..he is still making money from the biggest selling name...a man who died for all of us and is now being used for the shamefull act of making money..so it is a lie..inacurate...blood thirsty..money making film...not at all what has been portrayed... As for Mr Gibson....and in particular his father he should be shamed for all the world to see and never work in films again ...when his father states that the jews were never murdered in the holocaust..and that they just moved to places like New York, Sydney and Melborne....what about the Polsih ghetto's...what about when the victorous liberating forces of the allies namely Britain, America and Russia went into the occupied areas and found all of the walking skeletons,the vast burial grounds, the montains of corpses, glasses, shoes, etc..these did not exist did they..they are figments of the imagination..of the brave allied soldiers that died trying to save the jewish people from their horrors.... You can rest assured that if Mr Gibson's father takes this view then his son will almost certainly take it..after all he doesnt even recognise the second vatican council and he is supposed to be Catholic...albeit extreme right wing Catholic... Anybody who goes to watch this film will be agreeing with the anti-sematic views of its madman creator and director and also denying that the holocaust never happended...and if you do you might as well agree with the extreme rantings and portrayals that Mr Gibson Snr and Jnr subscribe to... Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
You know, I really don't see what Mel Gibson's father has to do with anything. I disagree with my parents on MANY MANY things. Just because they are my parents doesn't mean that I agree with them or think they are right. Goldenrose, you are just making an assumption baised on what you have read from others who went into this film with their minds set on finding something wrong. If you bothered to see the movie for yourself instead on going on hear-say, you would be in a better position to talk. The whole 'his blood is on your hands' speech was edited out. As I said in a previous post that you obviously didn't bother to read before you went on your tirade, many Jews are shown with compassion for Christ. I'll say it again, the ones with the unflattering potrayal are the Romans. Pilate would rather keep his position in power than to save an innocent man, and the solders are merciless in beating Him, and take joy in His pain. I am part italian, but you don't see me freaking out about that. Why, you ask? Because thats how those people behaved. I don't assume to think that Mel Gibson is passing judgement on a particular race in presenting the truth. Also, it WAS the reason they presented Christ to the Romans... Jews didn't crucify. It isn't a lie. About the movie being a 'gorefest'. If you saw the movie you'd see the obvious references to love, and to WHY Christ did this for us. He didn't have to, He gave Himself as a living sacrifice to save us all because he loves us. Personally, I'm glad it was as gory as it was. I think many Christians need a wake up call. This is the price of sin, God loved you that much. We need this in our watered down religion today. This is the real deal. This is real love. Again, if you bother to see the movie, you may change your mind... then again, I have the feeling that you, like the columnists you have so faithfully read and quoted, will go in dead set on seeing something wrong, so set on it that you create it... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
This movie is what it is and that is it - the final hours in the life of Christ as Mr. Gibson understands it to be so. Everthing else about what the movie is or is not, including how and why it came to be, is a matter of what people other than Gibson believe... People will see it. People will not see it. People will be offended by it. People will obtain a stronger faith from it. People will find it to be nothing but a glorification of violence. People will enjoy it. People will hate it. People will neither hate nor enjoy it. ~ The controversy about this film has most definitely helped its box office draw. ~ Recently, I happened to watch the movie Panic yet one more time. The movie portrays the ultimate sacrifice - a father giving up both his and his father's life, so the life of his son could be saved... and one could argue, spiritually as well as physically. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
i was not''going on a tirade''.i was merely saying what others have said about the film....going on tirades was what i have done in the past and i do not want to go down that path again...my message is of love now....this film was bound to present some contoversial talk with it's subject...you know what they always say the ''taboo'' subjects are...religion and politics... But surely you must feel appalled at a movie about Jesus Christ using his name and suffering to make money...? I did not reply to this thread for something to do..i replied beacuse you need some balence in this..i was merely telling you what New York Times...Washington Post was saying after they had been to see the movie..personally i find ANY film made about Jesus from what ever stage in history exploiting the word of jesus..no matter who made be it Charlton Heston....or Martin Scorcese...they all made money from Jesus and i think that is wrong....maybe if they took just what it cost to make the film..and any administration costs... and gave the money to the needy in say..Africa..then i wlll go and watch it... but you know where the money will go..but i am not going to a film and adding to the already high levels of exploitation of religion....all of the church leaders that sit in their ivory towers should sell everthing they have got and give it to the sick, suffering and dying..but do they?..i see no evidence of it... If Jesus was to revist this world next week..the first thing he would say to all of the priests and holymen is..''sell everything you have got..and give it to the needy...stop living like kings..while fellow human beings starve and suffer..didnt he turn the money lenders tables over in the temple?... Religion and money making has gone on long enough....give the money to the truly suffering..because there isnt one person that will tell you that Jesus would advocate such avarice.... But like i said this is just my own slant on things...i do not want to upset anybody by my thoughts....peace, love and understanding is what i subscribe to.... Peace to everybody.... Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
To whom were those questions directed to? "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I think it is an excellent movie and I highly recommend it. I'd even go so far as calling it a cinematic masterpiece. I was riveted. It felt like I was only in the theatre for perhaps a half hour instead of two hours. I am planning on seeing it again. I looked for anti-semitism, and frankly, I couldn't find it. The Jews were portrayed as a mix, those who were calling for blood and those who were ripped to the core of their beings by the horrors that they were seeing. Even among the Roman soldiers some were aghast at the extent of the brutality. I probably had steeled myself against the violence before seeing the movie because I only had to close my eyes twice. Gibson also used strategically placed 'flash-back' scenes to break up the violence, which I think he did extremely well. The movie has given me a deeper appreciation of Jesus' love and sacrifice for mankind. It was really brought home to me in a relevant way by seeing the sweat, blood, tears and agony, as no 'sanitized' portrayal ever could. quote: Have you done that yet, Goldenrose? Have you sold all that you have and given it to the poor? I'm not saying you, I or anyone else should or shouldn't do that, but we are not the judges of other men's intentions, and any admonitions found in the Bible, if they apply across the board, should always first be directed personally to ourselves before we attempt to help others see the errors of their ways. Should none of us have houses or possessions as long as there is poverty in the world? Even the poorest of us in the Western world live like kings compared to those in the rest of the globe. If you think that Jesus taught that as a general overall principal, and are therefore judging others who don't do that, have you taken the log out of your own eye first, before trying to remove the specks from others' eyes? Jesus taught that too, and I think that admonition applies across the board to everyone, whereas Jesus spoke the former only to one person who thought he was keeping the law and thought he was to be commended for his perfection. Jesus cut to the heart of the matter with the rich young ruler in telling him if he really wanted to be perfect (which none of us can be) to sell all that he had and to give it to the poor, and come follow him, in an attempt, I believe, to show the rich guy that he wasn't as perfect as he thought he was because his money was more important to him than anything else, he was therefore not really a law-keeper because of that, and did indeed need a saviour after all. I don't know how much money Gibson will finally make from his masterpiece, but I think however much he makes, he has earned every last cent. And unlike you, I don't have a clue where the money will go. I don't know what he will do with all of it or some of it, that's entirely between him and God. Perhaps he will give some or most to charity, perhaps he'll use some or most to finance another movie. I'd definitely go see it. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Amen, Denise... couldn't have said it better Goldenrose, I don't see why you felt it was required for you to relay the messages of what was written by your favorite columnists. I've read them as well. I don't think that anyone who has read this thread hasn't heard the things that these people have said and written... no need to repeat it. Sure, express your opinions, but don't be the Time's parrot. Isn't it dangerous to base your entire opinion on the opinion of someone else? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Now, I may be the oddball here. No, I haven't seen the movie. But I have read the Gospels. And being blessed/cursed with a very active imagination, I could see vividly the scenes depicted, most of which the censors would have edited for violence. Those who think the Bible contains no violence whatsoever, up to and including genocide, are severely deluded. Just my penny'orth. Alicat the Persnikitty |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Oh, I don't know, Lovebug, Goldenrose just seems like he's stating his opinion, not parroting anybody. I, for one, haven't been following the background (though I have been reading the reviews) as much as others and his comment triggered a little more reading. Curious if anyone can name a movie about Christ that isn't controversial? Was it boring? Controversies, as I'm sure we all know, make money. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
There actually was one, though the name definately alludes me. I do know it was an Italian film, done in monochrome, with the camera never moving off of Jesus' face while He gave the Beautitudes. I reckon that one had as much controversy as a bowl of lukewarm porridge... |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Ali, I agree with your first post whole-heartedly. The third has a point as well, although that was also an important part of Christ's ministry. BTW, I love how Jim portrays Christ... he does a wonderful job. I really liked the part where he's teaching the beatitudes... unlike some other movies that show this, he makes Jesus look like an earnest Teacher, which He, of course, was. Brad... here's a quote from Goldenrose: "i was merely telling you what New York Times...Washington Post was saying after they had been to see the movie"... and well, since he hasn't seen the movie, I just say that that sort of hurts any substance behind his argument. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Also, I talked to my sister today about when she saw it. She said that, right there in the movie theatre, she heard people praying aloud, giving their lives to Jesus Christ. Name another movie that has done that..... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: But when you started this thread, you hadn't seen the movie yet either. That apparently didn't make you or many others reluctant to offer an opinion of it? Does it really matter who said what? If the points being made of invalid, then the points should be discredited -- not the person who made them or the reasons they were being made. Arguing everything except the point itself just suggests the point can't be successfully argued. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
How about The Exorcist? It is reported that requests for exorcism increased after the movie was released. http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-01/exorcism.html quote: |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I was going to add that nothing quite seems to work like religion and violence to get people going (as opposed to sex and violence), but then I remembered something else: People were afraid to go in the water after Jaws. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Hm....and after Jurassic Park I'm terrified of dinosaurs.  heh |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
So, now christians are condoning violence in films or only when it suits their needs? So, on the big screen, it is okay to witness human torture, but it is not okay to witness naked bodies? |
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Tais Member
since 2004-01-28
Posts 92Ontario, Canada |
I saw the movie yeseterday with my kids. I felt that the movie wasn't like other bible story movies. This one was different. I am sure that even the non-religious had many feelings and tears from this movie. For those who are mothers, felt the mother's pain, in seeing her Son suffer and not being able to do something about it. For those who have freinds, felt the pain of seeing one whom they admired, being tortured in public, and not being able to help. For those who are not mothers/fathers or who don't have any close friends...felt the pain of the crowd in seeing a man being tortured and killed in front of them, and they had no way of voicing their opinion or helping. For those who have no compassion for others...whom ever they may be...didn't feel a thing. And don't care less about others. What I am trying to say is: the movie shows a suffering of a man...his mother's suffering...his followers (friends) suffering...it shows the tortures in the cruel reality of any torture. So, it's impossible for someone to watch it and not feel a thing. I repeat what I said earlier, that it is in no way anti-semite. What are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to take out every scene where a Jewish person was being cruel or unfair, and leave only the scenes where others who are not Jewish and were cruel and unfair, in the movie? That's ridiculous. If there were one or two or a group of Jewish people who were cruel and unfair, than that needs to be included in the movie, along with the others who were cruel and unfair (like the Romans). The truth is there, not only in this movie, but written in history. So why protray that "all" Jewish are only good? That's not true. All races and religions have bad and good...ALL of them. In my Christian point of view, the movie reinforced the sacrifice Jesus went through to save us. He 'showed' the ten commandments again...some parts of it, like "love thy enemy", because what glory or sacrifice is in just loving thy friends? The sacrifice of Our Lady, in seeing all this happen to her son, yet, she remained strong and knew that this needed to happen to fulfill the scriptures. She believed in her Son. As for it being bloody, yes it was. But it wasn't a bloody movie like Jason or Freddy , where people are hacked and murdered because of psychos. It was a different 'blood'. It was the blood of a good man, an innocent man, the Messiah (to me, because I am Christian). And it was a passage of the Bible, the Holy Scriptures, it was history, it was true. Whether people believe in Jesus or not...this really DID happen. But people today, continue to do that same as the crowd who shouted "crucify him". Because a lot in the crowd didn't even know what He was being accused of, but the fact that someone was going to be tortured and killed in public was a "thrill" for them. Lots of people today, do the same thing. They talk bad about Jesus, without even knowing who He was. They just shout out in the crowd along with the others. What did Jesus do, which makes people today, scared to say His name, or to find out more about Him? What did Jesus do, to make some people jump to offending Him today? Whatever bad things Christian did in the past, or do today, is not Jesus' fault. The real Christians follow Jesus' teachings the best they can, and they try to do so each time more. If people are going to use the bad Christians as examples of Christianity, than they are blinding themselves from the truth. Christianity comes from the word "Christ", and it is love and forgiveness. Those who say they are Christians but don't follow Jesus' teachings, should not be taken as examples of Christianity. I can understand that the Jewish people today are still waiting for their Messiah and they don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. But even so...I don't think they are very happy with seeing a man suffer so much cruelty, while this punishment at that time, was reserved for the horrible murderers or thieves. The cruelty of that suffering DOES hit the hearts even of the non-believers. To see innocent blood shed and cry for it, is part of being compassionate. I am a Christian and I do have Jewish AND Muslim friends. They all agree that it was not fair what happened to Jesus, and they said that if they were in the crowd at that time, they would be in the group which did NOT want Jesus to be condemned. They wouldn't be followers, or maybe they would, but they certaintly would not be shouting to crucify Him. And they did not think it was anti-semite either. As we saw, in the movie, 'evil' wanting to destroy good people who want peace, we also see this happening today. Sometimes, they don't even notice, or are not aware, that they are doing this. Just like Judas, who betrayed Jesus, and after he realized that he shouldn't have done that...but he was blind with evil. Today, lots of people are blood thirsty, go with the crowd, and are blind to justice. All through Jesus' life, He only taught wisdom and goodness. He was against revenge, against unfairness. He took into his group, as friends, a prostitute, a thief, a tax collector...people of all sorts of life...he was not prejudice nor racist. Maybe that's what bothers people today. He was totally good, a wise and very good man. And people today, some people, have the 'need' to be racist, prejudice, unfair and so forth. And others, just because there are some rules to follow - love they enemy, forgive thy enemy, love and forgive - and other 'rules', they feel they don't have to follow any rules because they want to live by their own rules. So they blame Jesus for this. But that's why our world is the way it is today...people refuse to follow the simple rules of: respect others AND themselves, forgive, love, give, truth, and most of all...believe in something other than what their desires wish to do....they are selfish and think they don't need anyone, nor any rules. But as a mother, I cried as I felt the suffering of Mary...I cried as I felt the suffering of the tortures endured...I cried feeling the pain of Jesus' friends not being able to help him not suffer anymore. But as a Christian, I accepted this as being the fulfilment of the scriptures. And I rejoiced in knowning that Jesus ressurrected and saved us. And each time I thought to myself "if I was there, I would have helped Jesus"...I also remembered that God is Jesus' Father, and loved Him more than we could ever love, and permitted this, because it needed to happen...then, I was thankful to God and to Jesus. And I felt Mary's strength and Faith. To me, as a Christian, I needed to remember Jesus suffering for us, to look at this world again, and notice that I need to make a difference in my own life and around me. I noticed that with times changing, we get used to modern values, which are not right at all. There is no respect nor diginity in a lot of things in our world today. And love, in our world today, is very superficial and lacks empathy and compassion and repect. I believe in God, I know Jesus is the Messiah, and I know that Mary is Our Lady. I have had more than enough proof of that in my life...miracles with my children and with myself. Many times, I felt God's hands guiding me, teaching me...I felt Jesus' love and embrace...I felt the eyes of Our Lady, I felt she was listening and taking the prayers of my children and of mine,to The Father. So...I KNOW God is love and I believe in the Holy Trinity and I KNOW that Our Blessed Mary is listening and helping. Yes, of course God will listen to us if we pray directly to Him. But to pray to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and ask to take our prayers to the her Holy Son and to Our Father (the Holy Trinity), is an act of humbleness which we do. It's like saying, "I am not worthy to talk to God directly, and I ask that Our Lady take my prayers." Yes, we are worthy, but if our heart is humble, that means that we are willing to listen, to be generous, to love. Because to be proud, is to say that we don't need anyone, we are the maximum of superiorness...which is not true...we are NOT. We are loved by God, but many times, we refuse His love, and forget that we are His creation, and that He gave us free will. What we do with this free will, is up to us. But to think that we are superior enough not to need God, is a blindenss which leads us to a darness within ourselves because we pushed God aside. God is light, and those who believe know this. Those who don't believe, cannot know this. Jesus spoke in parables, and only those who have the compassionate heart for themselves and for others, heard his words. When we see good people suffer, and get up on their feet again, but with a renewed spirit. We understand what is said in the bible, "the good trees, which bear good fruit will be pruned, the bad trees which will yield no fruits will be left unpruned." So those who are willing to live a life of love and forgiveness, will be improved. Those who don't care, and don't want to, will be left for this world, at their own fate. Abuse of power and self-glory, money greedy and unfairness, are the trees which are left for the world to decide...they might get richer and richer, more and more famous, etc...but in the end, they all have their fall. For the good trees, wotth the pruning, they will improve spiritually and become undestructible spiritually and are happy inside themselves, even though this world doesn't see them as such, or even though this world is cruel to them...they will still stand up and will become stronger and stronger. There is nothing at all which makes them let go of God's hand. Tais |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
Amen, Amen..to lovebug, Denise, and Tais.......People need to see the movie AND THEN SEE WHAT KIND OF COMMENTS they can make. I callenge even the worst athesist to go see it first before condemning it. Mel Gibson was led by God to do this film, not for money, but for the messege being told..Mel is a messenger of Christ...and if evil can use the media to grow evil in the minds of children and everyone..than why can't christians use the media for the good as well. This movie is about LOVE...pue and simple..self`sacraficial love, unconditional love...the love of Christ... This movie is anointed by God...God is speaking to all of us through this movie. Mel was the device he used to spread his messege to us...it is all about the heart. Mel Gibsons heart is in the right place...he put his heart into this movie..his love of the Christ Jesus. You first have to have a relationship with Jesus, "I am the way, the truth, and the life"..no one comes to the father, but by me. Daily relationship...In the book of revelation..When you die and you face Jesus..If you never had a relationship with Jesus..he will say "Depart from me for I never knew You"......Just as we have a relationship with our children, our earthly mother and fathers, so should we have with Jesus. One cannot speak of Jesus or know of Jesus unless they are saved by his mercy and grace, by his stripes we are healed! by his blood we are saved! John 3:16 for God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotton son, that who so ever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.... "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". For the wages of SIN is DEATH!...Romans 8 I agree with Denise, get the plank out our your eyes...look at yourself before looking at others faults....see were all of us are lacking...being selfish with money, time, with love, being negitive instead of positive..loving instead of hating... Jesus said "For I am with you even till the end of the world"...he will never leave you or forsake you... The world is the LIE..Jesus is the TRUTH..his love..his spirit makes all the SPIRITUALLY BLIND see again....the world has everyone on strings like puppets..in bondage to sins..the chains of sins are bonding you to this life..this world..Jesus can set you free.... Just like the Matrix movie...everything is an Illusion.....satan wants you to see it as real...but it is all fake..superficial...lacking substance...and just like the movie..They live...were they could only see the truth when they put on the glasses....let Jesus be your glasses to see the world for what it is and how you are being led astray and decieved... Everyone has a hole in their heart, that they are trying to fill..an emptiness. a void...they fill it with money, material things...with jobs...success. with drugs, with drink with sex...and even love becomes their God..and it never is satisfied...they keep buying more..needing more.... But accepting Jesus..this hole becomes filled, burdens are lifted, chains of sins are broken...your life is free, you are a new creature in Christ and you become born again ..seeing the world through the eyes of Christ....feeling love..real..love..his love...."Taste the living water..and never shall you thirst again""All those who are weary and heavy laden, come unto me and I will give you rest"~Jesus Christ Wake up ..sleeping zombies.....this movie is Gods wake-up call to society...God loves you....and wants you back with him.... God will never stop loving you....God will never leave you or forsake you... Just get on your knees and pray..asking him to forgive you of all the wrongs in your life....(you know them)....you remember..the lies...the anger....nasty words..nasty thoughts...stealing...cheating...the holy spirit will show you these things...just like the Scrooge movie.... and your heart is heavy with all these ...ask Jesus to come in to your heart..t o take away all your heartache and pain...to heal your soul..ask him to be your Lord and Savior..taht he is the Son of God...and that he died so you could live forever in heaven...he died for your sins...and the sins of the world...and he rose again on the third day... Please forgive me Jesus...for I have sinned...forgive me for.... I know you are the true son of God... That you died for me... come into my heart...I want your love..I need your love... cleanse me and make me new again... I want to live right...to to good... no longer do I want to serve satan... come into my heart oh Lord Jesus and make me new again... in Jesus name I pray...Amen! Thank you Jesus for saving me...for loving me..for dieing for me...take my place..my pain..my punishment...it should have been me up on that cross..but you loved me so much ..that you took my place... Jesus loves you..."lo, I stand at the door and Knock"....He is knocking on your hearts door...will you let him come in? and show you love..love like you have never felt before...love beyoned earth and time...love everlasting..eternal....forever! Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH [This message has been edited by A Romantic Heart (03-01-2004 12:47 AM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: I'd say, at least for me, Opeth, one of the defining elements is context, and whether the violence or nakedness is viewed as integral to the story line or merely gratuitous and sensationalistic. And I think within the Christian mindset, as in all other mindsets, there are various opinions on these matters, and it really comes down to an individual judgment call. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Ron, when I started this thread I stated that I hadn't see the movie, but I voiced my own opinion, not somebody elses. I didn't go around quoting what someone else said. I think there's a big difference. As for 'arguing the point', I think everyone can fairly say that I've addressed pretty much everything said in this thread... nobody can accuse me of dodging anything, unless it's just someone repeating something that I've already answered. As for 'condoning violence when it's good for us', well, as I said like... what, 20 times.. Mel Gibson was just trying to portray what really happened. As Denise said, I don't have a problem with other movies that show 'adult' things in good context or, in historical films, the sake of accuracy. The only time I'm opposed to such things is when it's mindless. And I think that dedicating your life to Jesus Christ is just a little different than being afraid of sharks... just me though.. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
A Rabbi, a Priest, and a Baptist Minister (no this is not a setup for a joke) screened the movie and were interviewed the morning after on local television. (a Catholic owned television station in a very Catholic town). They were unanimous on four points; 1. The violence is completely over the top. 2. Someone looking for anti-Semitism is going to find it (if that's what they want) Someone who isn't looking for anti-Semitism isn't going to find it. 3. The theology and historicity are questionable but if it sparks debate and brings people to a newfound interest in learning about the subject it's a good thing. 4. It's a film. That said -- here are a few resources someone might want to study if they are new to the subject matter -- these represent a good cross-section of points of view and would be found in most universities and theological schools. Understanding the New Testament /Author: Kee and Young http://www.rsgeerbooks.com/pi/1393.html History of New Testament Times / Robert H. Pfeiffer http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=2805390&domain_id=1856&ad=53983 Interpreting the New Testament /James L. Price http://shopping.yahoo.com/p___1955989683?d=b&id=1955989683& A Historical Approach to the New Testament / Crownfield, F.R. (no link found) Essentials of New Testament Study / Titus, Eric L. (no link found) The Man from Nazareth / Fosdick, Harry E. http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=2930452&domain_id=1856&ad=53983 |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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How about just reading the Bible? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Is that what Seminary students do? |
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LoveBug
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Yep I'm not saying that those aren't good books... that it's wrong or something to read commentary.. but I just think it's important to read the Bible for yourself to get a real understanding of what it is. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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LoveBug
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I just also want to say that I appreciate everyone who has replied to this thread. This is a touchy subject and everyone has been really respectful of each other. I might come off rough sometimes, but I do respect the opinions of others... I get pretty passionate sometimes (sorry for the pun :P ) but know that I'm not attacking you or anything, I'm just expressing what I think! Thanks guys Oh, make me Thine forever |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
http://www.cbn.com/special/PassionOfChrist.asp http://www.beliefnet.com/index/index_525.html Here is a link to the TRUTH with all your questions answered!.....This covers ALL the questions about the Mel Gibsons movie...The Passion of the Christ! Read the four gospels..read the HOLY BIBLE and find the TRUTH there.... Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH [This message has been edited by A Romantic Heart (02-29-2004 11:51 PM).] |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
[ARH, I couldn't easily tell which parts of your post were original and which were the words of Robert Ford Porter, so I had little choice but to remove everything. Writers don't infringe on the copyrights of other writers. - Ron] [This message has been edited by Ron (03-01-2004 08:30 AM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I said earlier in this thread that "Frivolity and banality have a place, but that place usually isn't in the middle of someone else's conversation. Off-topic comments deserve their own thread." What was true of frivolity is equally true of preaching. Those who want to deliver a sermon are in the wrong pulpit. In the course of almost six years, the number of threads I've closed, essentially shutting down conversation, could easily be counted on one hand. And I'd probably have a few fingers left on that hand for the next six years. Telling someone to shut up is almost always the wrong solution to a problem. Unfortunately, when it's clear that people aren't listening to anything but the sound of their own voices, talking quickly becomes nothing but noise. Dialog is a bit more than simply taking turns. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Off-topic reply removed - Ron [This message has been edited by Ron (03-01-2004 12:22 PM).] |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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I understand, Ron. Thank you for looking after this thread. I welcome anyone who wants to have a respectful debate.. thats what I was looking for in the first place.. If I came off to anyone in the wrong way, I'm sorry. I feel strongly about things so I may come off as disrespectful. If I've offended you, I'm sorry... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
LB, What is it about the movie that you want to debate? |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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Well, I started the thread just to discuss it really.. but I guess the main question I had in mind is : is it anti Semetic? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, yes, there is no denying the role that movies, TV programs, the media in general play in affecting people. We see it all the time in all types of films and programs, religious and secular. They can have a great influence on our values, how we think, feel, spend our money, etc., sometimes in good ways, sometimes in not-so-good ways. In any event, we are being influenced, and it's always good to be mindful of how easily influenced we can be. Geesh, Wall Street advertisers are so good at it that we don't even realize we are being manipulated most of the time! We are fond of a particular jingle on a commercial, for instance, and subconsciously we buy that product when there probably isn't a hill of beans difference between it and the competitor's (except maybe the competitor's is a little bit cheaper!) In any event, if this particular movie has any impact on folks beyond an initial emotionalism, which I think it very well may have, on a few at least, then I think it was worth producing. And aside from that, it did impress me as a masterfully done film that could be appreciated even by the non-religious who appreciate a well put-together film. It is extremely violent though, and I wouldn't recommend it for children or the squeemish. A friend in work told me that she had difficulty watching "Gangs of New York". I told her she shouldn't see this one then. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
That the film is violent isn't really a problem for me. One of my favorite films is a Japanese movie Battle Royale (sort of a Survivor meets Lord of the Flies kind of thing). What does bother me (and actually I'm of two minds here, simply ignore it it'll go away, or attempt to explain my position and fight a losing battle. ) is the unrecognized fact that violence is an extremely powerful tool regardless of its context. That's why we have movies with gratuitous violence in the first place. Why are people so moved by this film? If you are moved by a film, must it mean that it is a good film or must it be something more than film? Why did people, no doubt sincerely, claim to be possessed after The Exorcist? Where is the line between actual spritual inspiration and an aesthetic tool? These are hard questions to answer. I have a few but they strike me as just a little too pat (pop-psych stuff). But isn't it important that we all keep in mind one thing: Violence works. Much of the justification for said violence in this movie has been that it is true. But some articles on belief.net (interesting place by the way) pointed out that the gospels don't describe the crucifixion in detail. We can all be sure, however, that Jesus didn't fall in slow motion. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Quite franlky, I don't see the big deal about it. What is it? A Mel(odramatic, hit me over the head with the hammer of his point) Gibson movie. And it was everything I expected from Mel. The flashback scenes, IMO, were there to remind us why Jesus chose to undergo the agony, rather than deliver himself from it, as Mary so eloquently wondered about during the film. But it relies upon the viewer already knowing, and caring about that. As an agnostic, the only part I was actually moved by were the scenes with Jesus and Mary interacting... her loss of a son. The actress who played her did a wonderful job, I thought. I honestly think that for this movie to have the riveting impact so many in here reported, you actually have to already love Christ. Seeing the (huge) extent of his suffering wasn't enough to make me love him... at least cinematically. My compassion and care for him went no deeper than the wincing at the gruesome violence. But honestly, the teardrop from heaven? Him rising from the dead? Thanks, Mel, I didn't know that happened. It seemed like a whole lot of overkill to me. And once again, I don't see what the big deal is, although Mel's pocketbook isn't going to shed too many tears over the controversy. |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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I don't know where the line is Brad. I guess that's an individual kind of thing, maybe? Some people are highly influenced by things that don't phase others in the least. I was moved by this film because it vividly portrayed what the scourging and crucifiction must have been like and the depth of love that it had to take to endure something as horrible as that. Reading about it doesn't have quite the same impact, on me at least, as "seeing" what it must have been like. I don't have quite the imagination that Ali has. It made it more 'real' to me in that sense. I guess it's one thing to read of spikes being driven through flesh and actually seeing a recreation of what that must be like. No, I don't think being moved by a film is necessarily what makes it a good film, but I think some movies can be both moving and be technical masterpieces. I think this is one of those rare films that is both. I think the only justification for the violence in this film is that it actually happened. I don't think the violence, per se, is what makes this a gripping movie, what makes it work, but the love that endured that level of violence for the sake of mankind that makes it so. I think that is the clear message in the film and I think that is what makes it work. And that slow motion fall, that did have a very powerful effect on me, and I've been trying to figure out why. Maybe because it allowed me, in my mind, to fall along with him? It gave my mind those few extra seconds to imagine what that must have really felt like? But I've had a few falls in my life (and the broken bones to prove it!) and it does feel like you are going in slow motion as you are going down, so maybe that is what it was meant to show, how it felt to Christ as he was falling? I don't know. I just know that I plan on seeing it again to catch the things I may have missed seeing in it the first time around. Yes, I really think it's that good! |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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There are a lot of violent movies... but it's different when the One on the screen being beaten is 1. God Incarnate 2. doing it for you I think those facts are what has made the impact, not just the violence itself... which was probably much worse in life than what is on the screen. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"There are a lot of violent movies... but it's different when the One on the screen being beaten is 1. God Incarnate 2. doing it for you" ~ But not everyone believes that to be true, so if this particular movie depicts violence, to me, it is no different than the violence depicted in a movie such as Pulp Fiction. |
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LoveBug
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Well, even though they may not believe that those things are true, they know that many people do, and even people who are not Christian can get a powerful message out of the movie, or at least understand how it affects people as opposed to Pulp Fiction. Even if they aren't Christian, they can know that Christians saw this suffering as having a great purpose. I think that makes the difference Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"... and even people who are not Christian can get a powerful message out of the movie, or at least understand how it affects people as opposed to Pulp Fiction." ~ For certain, people who are not christian may get a powerful message out of the movie, but I disagree with your opinion about Pulp Fiction, people may get a powerful message out of Pulp Fiction too. I know I did. "Even if they aren't Christian, they can know that Christians saw this suffering as having a great purpose. I think that makes the difference" ~ But the same can be said for other movies too. And should not the Christian know that the non-christian sees a great purpose in those movies and that there is also a differnce? "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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Sure, other movies have violence with a sort of purpose. Example: Saving Private Ryan. Some will say that that violence was justified because 'the free world was saved'. But, at the same time, other people had to die. Americans died, Germans died, esc... was it worth it? That's not a question to most of us but some people may ask that. Mrs Ryan for example, who lost all but one of her sons... Lets again take The Passion. Look at the storyline. One Man dying to save humanity. Giving entirely of Himself to save an ungrateful world. Even if you don't believe Christ was the Messiah, if you just look at it in that context, that's still a pretty powerful story. He suffered because He loved sinners. Again, just taking this as a storyline... one could even look at it mathmatically. The greater the pain endured, the greater the love. And is there the question "Was it worth it?". (again, look at it as a storyline) If it is giving all of humanity a chance to be saved, than it doesn't leave much room for argument. One gave His life for all, and He is the only one who needed to suffer. Everyone else was set free. And although His loved ones suffered seeing Him die, they rejoice in seeing Him live. For everyone but Jesus, it's a win/win situation for anyone who will accept it. (Again, looking at it only as a storyline) So, if you can look at it as a storyline,which all movies are, you can see that this violence does serve a greater purpose than the violence in other movies. The violence is what makes His love so much more strong and pure and evident. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
"So, if you can look at it as a storyline,which all movies are, you can see that this violence does serve a greater purpose than the violence in other movies. The violence is what makes His love so much more strong and pure and evident. " I'd respectfully disagree with the logic here, as it is based on your perception and belief that he died to save mankind and that he loved sinners. The story line of one individual performing such an act has also been repeated in other movies, without the religious context. I repsect your belief that the bible is true and that god is real, I however read your arguments as being faith based rather than logical. I can not argue against your faith, and would not, but do believe Opeth's points valid and would stand as unrefuted by your last exapmles. |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
I've wondered how accurate the form of violence as portrayed in the movie is - and this is a very minor quibble. For instance, driving nails through one's palms wasn't practiced by the Romans (for practical reasons). |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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Where's another movie where a flawless person gives their life for an ungrateful world, for all people in the present and future? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
A panel discussion of Notre Dame professors held tonight at Notre Dame http://www.wndu.com/news/032004/news_24352.php quote: |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
denise- 'I don't think the violence, per se, is what makes this a gripping movie, what makes it work, but the love that endured that level of violence for the sake of mankind that makes it so.' But that wasn't what the movie was about. The movie was about the violence. You might argue that any movie about Christ is about his love and redemption for humanity. I'd say that Christ. in a Biblical sense, is about that. But this movie was about the last 12 hours of his life. It was about Christs' death. Which brings me back to my original point... I think you had to love Christ, and respect his sacrifice before going into this movie, because I don't think Mel does any kind of a good job portraying the 'passion.' I think it's kind of stuck in as a tacky afterthought to all the violence and brutality. Don't get me wrong... I see the importance of portraying the true violence of his death... of showing the alternate picture of the clean, pasty jesus nailed up there with about 2 drops of blood falling. But to see it as anything mroe than that, in my opinion, is to interject one's own faith onto the picture... you already care, and in that sense, you've unintentionally done Mel's job as a director for him. |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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"But that wasn't what the movie was about. The movie was about the violence" Actually, the movie was about His love. You say that those last hours of His life were only about violence and not the love He preached, but you are wrong. That violence is the cumination of His love for us. It's how He shows it, how He proves it. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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"And the film's intensity is visual, and as a result, it denies what I take to be a central feature of the Christian faith, which is the gospel is word" "And the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us"-John 1:14 Christianity very much centers around the body of Christ... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Lets again take The Passion. Look at the storyline. One Man dying to save humanity. Giving entirely of Himself to save an ungrateful world." But you see, LoveBug... it is through yours and other christians' belief that allows you all to view the film the way you all do. I don't, nor will I ever understand how christians can believe that the world was ungrateful. To be ungrateful, the world would have to know that something was done for it. However, Christ didn't come in the manner that the Jewish people expected him too. In fact, what they are waiting for still hasn't occured. What would God expect them to think? Not only that, the Jewish authority and the Roman government had to crucify Christ because if they didn't, God's plan could not be carried out. So, they did what God wanted them to do! Why did Jesus speak in parables? He said it himself, "It is not for them to understand." How can they be ungrateful if they do not understand what is given to them? |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
LoveBug... in the sense that he underwent all that pain in order to save humanity, it is about his love. But the movie truly doesn't make that the focus. I remember (vaguely) watching Ben Hur, and wasn't Jesus doing nice things like giving prisoners water and curing lepers throughout that movie? That, to me, shows his love. In the Passion, you basically just hear him talk about his love in flashbacks (although they do shjow him saving Mary Magdelene, which is an act of love)- and the flashbacks seem, to me, almost an afterthought. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think taking them out would disrupt the flow of the movie... making them kind of tangetial to the main point... which was Christ's death. |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"Not only that, the Jewish authority and the Roman government had to crucify Christ because if they didn't, God's plan could not be carried out. So, they did what God wanted them to do!" Exactly, thank you for making my point against Anti Semetism. Jesus GAVE His life.. (Jesus is God anyway, but we won't argue that point right now) As for an ungrateful world, Jesus told us plainly who He was, He said He was God (I and my Father are One) and told us that He became flesh to die for our sins. Well, do we all love each other like Jesus told us to? Do we obey Him? Do most people even believe in Him? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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And hush? I believe the movie very much makes that the focus. Thats what the movie is about. What do we think of when we see the word Passion? We think of a strong, intense emotion, ususally love. Think about that... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
Well, do we 1. all love each other like Jesus told us to? 2. Do we obey Him? 3. Do most people even believe in Him? """" ~~ I have yet to see this movie, and I will, so right now I can not commment honestly on the aspects of that part....but the above LB really had me thinking'''' 1. NO 2. NO sadly 3. NO even sadder! (that would be the do most believe in him) ~~**~~ There are moments when speech is but a mouth pressed lightly and humbly against the angel's hands. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The word passion is thought of in those terms, in this language, and in this time. The root word is 'Pathos' though -- which is -- to suffer. This is why the Easter Pageant has always been called the 'Passion Play' and why Gibson's movie is aptly titled. If you want to try to convince the faculty of Notre Dame that they don't understand Orthodox Christianity I can get you their e-mails. |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I don't know Hush, I guess I would just describe the Passion and death of Christ as love in action, as in "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."(John 15:13) I just see the movie as a depiction of that love in action, the focal point, and the preordained fulfillment of his life and ministry, the very reason for his life and ministry. I guess it could depend on one's point of view when seeing the movie. I guess I just have a hard time visualizing a person even going to the see movie and having never heard that Christ died for humanity out of love. I could understand someone not being able to see beyond the violence if they had never heard of Christ and his sufferings and death on behalf of mankind out of love, "For God so loved the world..."(John 3:16) (but even then, if I remember correctly, wasn't it that particular verse that was emblazoned across the screen at the very beginning of the film? If not it was a similar one declaring God's love in preparation for what the viewer would soon be seeing, it may have even been John 15:13. Tacky afterthought? I'm really at a loss as to how you could have walked away with that impression, unless you missed the opening and the several other references throughout the movie), but I feel pretty sure that most people who see it have at least that basic understanding, not even taking into account that the meaning was clearly depicted. Now whether they really care or not, or whether they actually believe it or not, I think the message would still be pretty clear though, regardless. They might not be emotionally moved by the film in quite the same way, but that's different than not getting the meaning of the film and seeing it only as a portrayal of violence, at least to my way of thinking. And if I've actually done Gibson's directing for him, unintentionally or otherwise, I'd better be getting a check in the mail! |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
[Off-topic post removed - Ron] [This message has been edited by Ron (03-04-2004 07:43 AM).] |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Exactly what I was trying to say, Denise.. thank you very much, although the verse at the beginning was from Isaiah. Jesus is depicted in the movie as saying the words from John 15:13 though. LR, I believe the gentleman said that that is how HE takes the gospels. Just because he goes to University (well, I do as well.. hmm..) doesn't mean that he has a greater understanding of the gospels as opposed to every other Christian.. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks, LoveBug, yeah you're right it was a verse from Isaiah, which one in particular I don't quite remember, but that's one of the reasons I want to see it again, to nail down all those little details that my brain didn't quite retain! Was it the "he was bruised for our iniquities" one? What is that chapter and verse number, if you remember? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
You're ascribing an argument to me I haven't made... in fact.. I haven't made an argument on this entire thread. |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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"If you want to try to convince the faculty of Notre Dame that they don't understand Orthodox Christianity I can get you their e-mails."---didn't you say that, LR?? Also, when I asked people what they thought of when they think of the word "Passion", I KNEW why it was used in the title.. but I was refering to the common vernacular use of it. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
That is not an argument. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
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since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I never said it was, but can't I comment on your statement? Thats what discussion forums are for... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Certainly -- but I didn't say the faculty of Notre Dame knows more about Christianity than anyone else. What do you think the significance is though of the opinion of Notre Dame professors in regard to the topic? |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Denise, I totally can see your point of view. But I think that's the difference between already having a passion for Christ and not. It's essentially a movie about the climax of a story... and in my opinion, most of it was done as a climax, from a technichal standpoint. I understand that Christ's life isn't really able to be neatly packaged into a 2-hour cinematic feature. And I can respect that it has to be shown, by different directiors and writers, in different ways, and that most movies about Christ focus on different aspects. But technically, this may suprise you, but I'd actually compare it to Quentin Tarentino's Kill Bill vol. 1. Very little time spent on background, very violent, very climactic all the way through. I can say that I identified with Uma Thurman's character-- the whole womanhood thing-- and I thought the way he used the loss of a child as her motivation. I was all jazzed up because- hey- it's a sweet, hard-ass woman kung-fu killer, in a more realistic package than is usual for that archetype. But I didn't so much get attached to her. I don't want to sound like I hated the Passion- I didn't- I just didn't think it was all it was hyped up to be. And I guess, in the end, that's just a matter of opinion. Oh, and LoveBug- you are the one who started this thread, so I'd appreciate it if when I make a point you disagree with, you don't just dismiss it with "Think about that." That's really annoying. And just because the movie has Passion in the title doesn't mean it jibes with everyone's idea of Passion. Titles aren't always literal... I mean, was Magnolia about Magnolias? |
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LoveBug
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Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
LR, some people would agree with them, but as I said earlier, the suffering and the body of Christ are very much central to the Christian faith. A lot of people have gotten away from that, but that is what the faith is baised on. Hush, I just wanted you to compare the word "passion" in both of the ways it is used... such as the movie title and also when people say such things like "passionate love". I think that the reason Christ went through His Passion was for His Passionate love for us.. Hehe, thanks for participating, everyone Keep it going if you have more to say... not every say that I get a thread with more than, like, three replies! LOL Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Well LB, I am out on this one. You asked 3 questions on one of your threads, it was answered by one pip member, and then I answered it too, but I guess my answers were off-topic and were deleted. It was interesting. I am delighted you enjoyed this movie and that the movie inspired you and your faith. "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Denise That verse you were looking for: "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him striken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our inequities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." Isaiah 53:3-5 |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Hush, but how do you feel about Gibson? Maybe that partially influences how you see the film too. My husband deplores Tom Hanks, for some unknown reason. He's missed quite a few good films because of it, in my opinion anyway. I saw a Quentin Tatentino film once, can't remember the name of it at the moment, quite gorey though, I'll never forget that.  I can see what you are saying about the climactic aspect of the Passion. I guess it does just come down to personal preference whether someone cares for a film with that type of focus or not. Berengar, thanks! That's one of my favorite verses. So how come I can never remember the "address"  I'd like to say that "I won't forget it now", but, of course, I know myself better than that! Thanks again! |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Denise... I really don't mind Mel Gibson, I think he's a pretty good actor, actually. However, some of his movies seem to have a very overbearing melodrama attached (as in We Were Soldiers and The Patriot) and I saw that common thread in the Passion as well. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well I suppose then Lovebug -- you don't see this movie as having any ecumenical effect. But, I'm inclined to agree with you. A lot of people do agree with them. In fact about 8500 undergrad and 2500 grad students pay them about $40k per year to learn from them. The only reason there aren't more students is because Notre Dame won't let them in. Last year 12,000 people applied -- only 3360 were accepted to be freshmen. The applicants had an average SAT of 1382 -- or a 97th percentile ranking out of all college bound students nationally. Half of those admitted had scores between 1320 and 1460. 373 high school valedictorians were rejected. Aside from that -- what I think is significant about their opinion regarding the topic is that Notre Dame is not some liberal West-Coast school (or any coast for that matter). It's the repository of Catholic thought in this country. I'm interested though -- what do you think Professor Holland's concerns are about the word made 'film'? And I leave the question open to everyone. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
....I can't help but wonder why you just gave us a huge description of Notre Dame. I'm not ignorant. I'm also not Catholic, but even I know the importance of the body of Christ in that denomination.. they believe that when they take the bread and cup that it actually becomes the body and blood of Christ. That belief is quite strong in the Catholic church, I believe. Thats why I'm so surprised by these people, especailly if they are Catholic, like you say, trying to downplay the suffering of the body of Christ.. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Dr. Neyrey specializes in Greco-Roman philosophy, rhetoric and study of the progymnasmata. Professor Holland specializes in Shakespeare, Film, and Television. Neither of their arguments deny the significance of nor even concern the Eucharist Lovebug. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I think they very much consurn it. He said that the Gospels are about the word and not what happened to Jesus' body.. but the Word was made flesh, and the whole religion revolves around Him and His body, as I said before. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I think you're mixing the two arguments together Lovebug. Dr. Neyrey's comment is centralized on the content of the film vs. the Pascal (or Paschal) Mystery. The Pascal Mystery focuses on the journey from the Cross to Resurrection -- which Catholics would hold is the core of the faith. The tie in to Eucharist is that it is the rememberence and celebration of that journey. Dr. Neyrey finds that a focus on the journey to the Cross, instead of FROM the Cross devalues the story. Professor Holland's argument is that a focus on the visual is potentially dangerous. That's probably because as a film and television expert he knows what the power of visual media (vs. word) can be. Are you familiar with what happened in the televised debates between Richard Nixon and John Kennedy? |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"Dr. Neyrey finds that a focus on the journey to the Cross, instead of FROM the Cross devalues the story." And I'm saying that it doesn't devalue it, because the whole point of Christianity is that we are free because Jesus suffered and died... And about the visual vs. the word.. I think that the visual, after 2000 years of only the word, IS very powerful. It should be. I'm glad it is. It isn't dangerous, it's truth and it's wonderful... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: and even the 'worst atheist' (I believe that was the term that was used earlier by someone else) can say Jesus suffered and died -- it's what's missing from your sentence that Dr. Neyrey finds missing from Mel's movie. That's his point Lovebug. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
The 'worst' Athiest might think that, but they can also see His love in the act when they see this movie. Thats MY point. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Hawke and Lovebug: I just saw the movie this past weekend. Lovebug, I agree with Hawke that something important is missing from your sentence. We so often focus on the passion and resurrection of Christ and forget that His sinless life should most certainly not be forgotten. Surely the resurrection was an empiricle sign of God acceptance of Christ's sacrificial act, but we ought to take great caution in not forgetting WHAT was sacrificed. Regarding the movie, there were a few parts I found problematic (the scene which dramatically depicted the origin of the Shroud of Turin, for example). Also, was Jesus beaten that badly before His crucifixion? Dunno. Was He beaten worse? Dunno that either. As long as we don't forget that Gibson's movie is a depiction of what the Passion of Christ MAY have been like AND we remember there is much more to the story than what was filmed (or survived the director's cutting room), we're okay. By the way ... I heard Gibson is considering a movie about the Maccabean struggles. I thought that put an interesting spin on the anti-semitic accusations that have been thrown at him. Jim |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Jim, in a world full of disgusting sexual and violent images, the story of Christ has been whitewashed. It has been cleaned up and shined and made to look nice. In doing this, however, in taking away the suffering, the dirt, the nitty gritty, they have taken away what was sacrificed much more than you think the movie has. They have taken away the fact that Jesus was God, yet human, and felt and had pain and emotion, temptations and sadness, as we all do. The movie just shows us what people seem to have forgotten. It's easy to talk about His birth, His parables, His miracles, His sermons, His resurrection, but it's not easy to talk about His death, maybe because we know we're guilty... but we do need to talk about it. We needed this. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
In light of recent events, I was just wondering if anyone has changed their mind regarding the intent of Mel Gibson? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Nope. It is true that 'drink brings truth', but he's an actor. He's not a politician, he does not create public policy, he is not an elected official; neither is he a paid member of any organized religion. He's a citizen who said something incredibly stupid while drunk. I'd love to hear what George Soros, one of the few people to have been banned from Vichy France of all places for being too liberal, had to say while drunk. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I think it's entirely possible, despite his own claims to the contrary, that Mel Gibson harbors ill feelings toward Jews. Many people, it seems, still sadly do. On the other hand, I think it's also possible a drunk and very angry man attacked the first thing he could about the target of his anger. Had the officer arresting Gibson been female, we might well be reading how sexist the star of "What Women Want" really is. When you're mad and want to hurt someone, vitriol is rarely going to be limited by personal belief. In fact, I'm not sure it's limited by much of anything. It just has to hurt. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
More curious about public opinion guys. I still don't know Mr. Gibson, and I still haven't watched the movie. I tried to watch "What Women Want" but this woman didn't wanna watch it. But I did remember the passion of this thread... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: We don't count as public any more?  |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
This whole controversy really is no laughing matter. What's especially interesting here is that Mel Gibson said in his PR statement regarding the instant that though he certainly regrets what he said and that he is not an anti-Semite, he also said in this statement that he wants to figure out what it was that made him say those vulgar things, and that‘s when he was seeking the Jewish community‘s help. So I think there's something else here, something beyond the bottle itself, that something inside of him caused him to do and say these things, and that's what makes this controversy all the more interesting. I personally feel Gibson must be grappling with some sort of personal issues or demons as of late, and what they are I just can't say. Moreover, the reason why I think many are still skeptical of Gibson's apology being genuine is that he hasn't yet apologized publicly to the female police officer to whom he used these words on, so some women generally speaking may question his treatment to women here as well, or police officers. So really there's several issues all being juggled at once here, where some question Gibson being an anti-Semite, fewer others questioning him of being a misoygnist somehow, and others thinking he holds some sort of grudge against the police. And that's exactly why this is seen as a huge issue across the landscape. Some are laughing at Gibson, I'm not, and I think in the most part Gibson meant well in his apology. But I do think he's grappling with something else either emotionally or psychologically here, and that should be of deep concern here, for not trying to resolve the source of this conflict could inevitably lead to future mishaps on his part similar to this. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Of course ya'll count Ron--that's why I asked. I'm not laughing at it either Noah. And thanks Ali, as I wondered if anyone would take into account that tequila was involved too. I find it interesting because as a substance abuser myself, I know I've done and said some mighty stupid things while under the influence. Why, some of them were in this very forum!  And further, I do know that a major aspect of "recovery"--if you can call it that--involves taking an objective moral inventory of yourself. and sigh, I wasn't asking the question just to start trouble. I've got trouble to the West of me, trouble to the East--if anything, I am guilty of nervous self distraction of late, not trouble seeking. So I truly was curious as to what the people in this thread thought, as it was thier opinion I most strongly recollect. I do spend an awful lotta time here. And it's cause I LOVE YOU. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I sincerely hope that, as some news accounts indicate, that this incident won't bring his career to an end. Just as he chose to drink, and knowing that he has a real problem with it, may well be the same reason he will work very hard to disassociate himself from further incidents of this nature, while working very hard to make his amends. Like Ali, I think he will overcome it. But it will be his choice. Meanwhile, those that love to kick people while they are down will have a field day, I'm afraid. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: He's an admitted alcoholic, Noah. Yea, he's grappling. And he'll be grappling for the rest of his life. I think anyone who has previously been the target of a drunken rage has a pretty good idea of what happened. His fight with the phone. His oh-woe-is-me remarks about the state of his life. His verbal abuse of anyone who stands in his way. These are all classic symptoms. One could take the symptoms alone or out of context, and perhaps conclude that Mel Gibson has a deeply seated hatred of telephones, but I suspect that would be a mistake. Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Unfortunately, I think you're right, Karilea, in that the detractors have so much cannon fodder to use on Gibson, and they're going to use as much of it as they can on him. I believe his movie career won't end despite this controversy, but this incident, sadly, will still severely hurt his credibility and likeability among a number of circles. Sinead O'Connor was truly a most talented singer and I believe deserved far more longevity than she has gotten as an artist. However, we all know well from her experience what a comment like blasting Pope John Paul II on Saturday Night Live, where she encouraged everyone to "fight the enemy" can do, and that she's never going to recover from that infamous incident, which I myself strongly disagree with what she did, which if that is any indication, this incident will always leave some sort of scar on Mel Gibson's public profile. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
I've never watched "The Passion Of Christ", but he was quite good in "Braveheart". I'm sure another actor would have been just as good. Alcoholics are [profanity removed - Ron] That's the thing about free speech-there has to be a point where the sober *majority decide that hateful people have no right to continue blabbering away to the World. Let him slaver into his drink, and leave him at the bar. [LOL. Looks like your advice is going to be followed, at least within the confines of this thread. Your free speech, at any rate, is going to be limited in these forums by your ability to communicate without being offensive. - Ron] *Of course, an extreme version would bring the Tyranny Of The Majority, but some things should not be heard so loudly. If the guy was a sheet metal worker, he'd be talking to a lot less people, and he'd run the risk of being beaten up. [This message has been edited by Ron (08-03-2006 09:55 AM).] |
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Brian James Member
since 2005-06-26
Posts 147Winnipeg |
A while ago, in my Chaucer class, someone brought up the fact that the study of historical legal documents suggests that Chaucer was once tried for "raptus," an ambiguous Latin word that might mean rape. Boy, that was some interesting conversation. I still like the Canterbury Tales though, and I still like The Passion of the Christ, regardless of who Mel Gibson happens to be. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"Alcoholics are [profanity removed - Ron]" Smile. Sometimes the imagination is far worse than the reality, as I am filling in the blank and depressing the hell out of myself. I brought this back up because I was curious, and I was curious from the point of view of a substance abuser. kif kif's reply reminded me that I should be careful of what I ask, but then, maybe I need to hear it. But I think it should prolly be another thread. Thanks for your time everybody. And btw? Without the compassion and understanding of Ron, I would have been banned from this site a long time ago. Nod. Don't think I don't keep that in mind. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=191067604&p=y9yx683yx I believe that with a holding out of hands to envelope some understanding...that some will say..."just continue to educate yourself to our understanding, as we make that attempt to understand you..." At least, it appears to be a sane effort. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
That's good news, Karilea! I'm so glad you shared it! The events these past few days have been sad to hear about. I haven't agreed with some of Mel Gibson's opinions or behavior over the past decade or so, but he's always been one of my favorite actors, and I'd hate to see his legacy stop here. I recognize, as a fellow Catholic, that Gibson has been no stranger to controversy, and I have disagreed with some of the things he has said and done, such as when he told the author of a biography he wasn't consulted about, "I don't think God will put him in my path. He deserves death." Nor do I really like how he behaves or asserts himself toward the homosexual community necessarily. But Gibson is only human as we all are, and grappling with personal demons like alcohol and not taking them as seriously as one should is no laughing matter, just like with Kennedy's recent struggle and with Cheney's hunting accident. And I think it is shameful how the mass media is treating him. I still suspect that Gibson has recently been struggling with something beyond just booze itself that may have encouraged him to say what he said over the weekend. But whatever the case, I have sincere concern for him, and believe he should and deserves to be forgiven. Sinead O'Connor's Pope remark, which I didn't enjoy, doesn't change the fact that I still see her as a most passionate, talented vocalist. Lindsay Lohan partying a little too much than she should doesn't change the fact that I still see her as a talented young woman who has potential to be a great actress. And this event, as much as I don't enjoy it, doesn't change the fact that I have and will always enjoy his acting contributions to the world. What's most tragic here is that the mass media has seemed to decide that kicking Mel Gibson while he's down is far more important than focusing on the humanitarian crises that are Israel, Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority and Sudan. And that's what disgusts me most of all here. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
Sorry, it wasn't much of a profanity...more a body part-just call me continental. On the subject, Gibson spouted this drunkenly, World-Wide, and at a time when relations between religions are delicate, to say the least. Responsibility comes with fame, because people listen. Of course, through the ages, famous people have been criminalised, or charged...I for one don't believe Oscar Wilde should have been criminalised, or Socrates...yet back then, it was a political manouvere to sully their name, resulting in social vilification (because they were revolutionary, and had Ideas). I don't think this applies to Gibson, he's just a stupid, drunken actor who has no business spouting anything World-Wide but lines from his films, and charity requests. If he want's to get political, he shold join a discussion group...and keep his fame away from his personal opinions. I agree, if it wasn't for the media following them about, we'd not know, but do you really like the idea of paying to see films acted and directed by racists, sexists and bigots? He'll be running for office soon, just like that other twerp. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"I agree, if it wasn't for the media following them about, we'd not know, but do you really like the idea of paying to see films acted and directed by racists, sexists and bigots?" Well, then you're limiting yourself to very few works of art. Unfortunately, many people have feelings against some kind of group. It's a dark side to human nature, but it exists. Look at Gone With the Wind and how it portrayed African Americans. Most people at the time of the book's publication and the movie's release didn't think twice, but we see something very different when we look at it today. I'm not condoning anything like this, but like Brian said about Chaucer, it doesn't mean we should ban anything good these people created because they personally do bad things. If you think this, condemn Kennedy's resolution of the missile crisis beacuse he committed adultery. Condemn America's founding because Jefferson, Washingtion, and almost all of the founding fathers, because they kept slaves. Condemn the New Testament beacuse Paul facilitated murder. Condemn Roman achievements because Ceasar beacuse he slept with men, women, young boys.. this list could go on forever. Also, Alcoholics are not.. whatever profanity was edited out. Alcoholics are sick people who need help, and I hope this occurance makes Mr. Gibson get help. He has a lot of talent and he might do even better work once he gets help for his affliction. Music pours over the sense |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I agree. An artwork should be judged by the virtues that are in the artwork itself, not by the vices that the author may have. |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
i think kinda recently they found some part of the bible that had claim that jesus asked judas to betray him or something like that. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
sheesh, I didn't know this thread was going on the matter of Gibson's outburst. Karen, Sunshine & Ess I totally agree with you all...adding, I'm backing Gibson on this and hope this all backfires, not only making him bigger, but a better person as well...I believe he has a lot to offer to society. Ali, I liked your comment, and taking it further, I'd just like to say, perhaps he was discussing the current war that night?...and the fear of what is happening to innocent people escalated into anger...it surely affects all of us without drinking? Drink does perhaps bring out truth...but is it really how the man feels or was he venting a frustration and saddness at what is going on? Ask, "why do people get angry?"...because they're hurting, sad & frustrated...which escalates into anger because we cannot control a situation or people the way we would like to. A lot of bad stuff is presently happening...and I believe if he hadn't been under the influence, it might have been different, who knows, but I don't believe insulting an entire race is what he meant to do. Think about 9-11, and about how people were feeling and saying then, probably the same thing. He did offer a public apology, which to me is saying a lot. What bothers me most about this, is the way it's escalated into something that to me, is the reason wars start...over such silly disagreements and outbursts, and people get killed over this stuff? Not to mention...I belive there is much more here then meets the eye...who is pressuring the media, the arresting officers, to make such a big what to do about it all, is the question I have to ask myself? Noah, I like your mind... oh, and please don't misunderstand, I think driving while drinking is foolish and that Mr. Gibson should have to serve what ever consequence flows from that choice. [This message has been edited by LeeJ (08-11-2006 08:45 AM).] |
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