»
Discussion
»
The Alley
»
Jose, Can You See???
| The Alley |
|
Jose, Can You See??? |
|
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA 
|
Last night I had a dream. I dreamed I sneaked into a foreign country, hid from the authorities, found work and a place to stay, thanks to some friends. Sure, I could have gone through proper channels to do it legally but who needs the hassle? Why follow rules when you don't have to? Then I demanded that the foreign government give me things like welfare, unemployment, stamps to buy food, medical attention and education for my kids. If they refused, my buddies and I marched against them in protest. We re-wrote their national anthem, omitting a lage portion of their sentences and phrases, into our own language and words, declaring it to be the anthem we would use. The government did nothing to us. The police did nothing to us. The newspapers gave us wonderful coverage. Even though our actions were illegal, even though WE were illegal, people cheered us. Was that a wonderful dream or not? Couldn't have been anything else, right?  |
||
| © Copyright 2006 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
you're not a criminal if you win the war... |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thank you for such an insightful comment. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
That wasn't a dream, Mike. That was American history. Ask any Indian ... (Which, of course, pretty much proves Chris's point, too.) |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Wish I could disagree, Ron, but I can't. The Indian situation was by far the most shameful in American history. You, however, are the first to state that two wrongs don't make a right. I think that referring back a century and a half ago to make some type of correlation to the illegal immigration problem now is a real stretch...even for you and Christopher. It does, however, allow one not to address the current issue. Let's just say what goes around comes around, pay for the sins of our forefathers, and forget about it then? Let's also tell every black to buy a good whip so that we can line up and be thrashed for the slavery days.  This is what LR refers to as the "point the finger that way" defense. I had sort of hoped to get a little input, pros and cons, concerning the illegal situation that is happening TODAY, in the news TODAY, marches and work stoppages TODAY in this world we live in TODAY. Instead I have crypticisms which would require a Caligula torture rack to stretch far enough to apply, and which you endorse as a valid point, and Indian references from the 1800's. Ah, well....at least you read and responded. That counts.  |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
if you were looking for something with a little more depth, Michael, you could have presented it in a different fashion - i took this post as a sarcastic quip on curreent events... you know, since you presented it as an axiomatic dream? |
||
|
iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Balladeer, that was some dream! Now, living down here in Houston, I've developed a fair perspective on the whole thing. I'll tell you this much. The legal Mexican immigrants now American Citizens or American Citzens with Hispanic ancestry, for the most part, living and working here resent the illegals -- or undocumented or whatever you want to call them -- taking their jobs. And they certainly do take their jobs. I hired a man last year, Mexican descent and a former Navy Seal, to rebuilt my fence and gates. His helper was anglo. He told me he would not hire day laborers -- that it really infruiated him that the illegals came and took jobs from Citizens -- he called it "raping our country." He hired my son for $5/hr. instead....lol. Good deal for both of us. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Christopher, how you could associate me with sarcastic quips is beyond me!  Yep, it was certainly tongue in cheek but very timely in such that the march was yesterday and it's major news at this time. I could have just said "What does everyone think about the illegal alien situation?" but where's the flair? Nice to know your response was not in a serious vein Iliana....Good for him - and you - and your son! Thanks for sharing  |
||
Mysteria 
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Sheesh, and here I thought you had moved to Canada! We have the same problems here. I can't get started on it Mike, trust me you don't want to hear.  |
||
Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Wow, we may think differently on 95% of issues, yet somehow we had the exact same footage broadcasted in our dreams here! This is a serious issue, fathomlessly more serious than we often acknowledge. Some label this as a national security issue, which it very well is also but is not the reason a srong majority of Americans follow this immensely closely. This is all about equality, fairness, preserving our American ideals. There are many who patiently and honorably wait often months at a time for their opportunity to be answered legally, and all because someone else chooses to walk around the system self-righteously and selfishly, the individual waiting respectfully in line to pursue and live the American dream is only postponed and blockaded. That strikes me as inequality, and just wrong. Look, I share a rare agreement with President Bush here in that it is unrealistic to deport all those who did happen to illegally traverse our borders, including those who have or are raising families and sending their children to school. I also don't agree with H.R 4437 in that it would criminalize all the immigrants and basically allow the Minutemen to head our immigration policies. But I also don't believe those who choose to catwalk around all that we stand for ever deserve to be entitled to amnesty or any form of special treatment. If we just passively allow this conduit to keep flowing, then it'll only encourage further erosions of our ways of life, and then they'll just cry for more and more. I don't want to sound insensitive by any means, and some can choose to call me a bigot or a racist for saying what I've said here (I heard a number of participators in the rallies claim whoever denies them their rights is racist and such), but my understanding here has nothing to do with race or class. Many in the rallies were calling for "respect". I personally believe anyone is destined and deserving of this respect if one is willing to respect the law, respect what we hold true as a nation, as a land of opportunity, and not treat it like some 4,000 mile wide grab-bag or Free Government Services Day Give-Away. This is about the respect of the law and identity as a nation, and I don't believe anyone who cheats this opportunity deserves any of it. One thing I'd absolutely favor is instituting tough penalties for businesses that employ illegal immigrants. It's only part of the strategy to ease this situation, but that would help a lot I believe. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Shrugging.. the Mexicans kicked our ass. They worked sun up till sundown... I really don't know what else to say. They kicked our asses. one addendum? I wanna know how all these Mexican warranties are gonna prove legitmate in twenty years, as promised. In fact, I wanna know how any warranties will prove legit--including my family's? {anybody seen my bro? I haven't.  )Nice, ain't it? They can all kiss my unhappy ass. I'm madder than a mudder. |
||
|
SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
if they are here illegally, send them back to where they came from. Families and all...whatever, who ever is here illegally. They knew what they were doing was illeagal, they still did it. I say that letting them stay here and giving them welfare and medical, dental, unemployment and workers comp is a load of crap. They made a choice. I have NO problem with them coming here and working and living, as long as it's done leagally. How dare they think they can come here breaking the law then demand rights. Why don't they go fix Mexico? Why don't they rally there and CHANGE THINGS THERE! If they used their numbers to change things there, they could do great things. ok enough from me... |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
They don't go change things in Mexico because they are not allowed to do that. That's a large part of the reason they came here in the first place. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Noah, Serenity and SEA....thanks you for your comment. I want to respond in detail but am a little strapped for time right now...I'll be back |
||
|
SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
Pete, how does that matter? It doesn't matter to them that they are breaking our laws, what is the difference? |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I didn't mean to imply that it matters at all. Just an answer to that one question although I knew it was rhetorical. You are right, they broke the law to get here and should not be rewarded for doing so. They are a large problem and the result, or evidence, of an even larger one. Unfortunately, dealing with the problem now will probably be larger than either of the above. I'm not at all sure our politicians have what it takes to fix it. I sure as hell can't imagine that the demonstrations did much to endear their cause to the vast majority of the voting citizens though. |
||
|
Paul Wilson
since 2002-07-07
Posts 4711United States |
What's worse you decide Lazy citizens that won't work and are living off the taxes we pay to the government or Illegal Mexican's that are willing to work and pay their fair share Which country did our ancestors come from? After all the only true Americans are the American Indians. I say if a man will work and support himself & pay his fair share his nationality or color doesn't matter. ~~To share my poems with you is to share my heart with you~~ Paul |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
A man's nationality and color are not the question here. We truly are a nation of immigrants. There is a legal way to do it though, just as there is a legal way to earn a living. If you break the law, you should suffer the consequences. |
||
|
Mandamus Junior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 13 |
Yeah. I sure wish all those French and Canadian illegal immigrants would have a greater respect for the law and go home. I guess what I'm wondering is if this is about illegal immigrants or if it is about Mexicans. Mandamus |
||
|
Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I absolutely agree as we reflect on this complex issue and our national identity, we must not forget that, truly, there are Native Americans whose home has been right here across our heartland long before Europeans ever set foot on our eastern shores. Looking back on our nation's history, and being part-Cherokee Indian myself, my heart continues to cry and is ashamed that our truest, earliest natives were victim to widespread crimes of genocide and cultural dispersal. Though I absolutely believe we have gone a long way since those dark times like during the Andrew Jackson era, I still believe there are many instances of forced assimilation being practiced upon communities nationwide, and while I'm joyed to see Native American studies and literature growing in our universities and schools so we can grow a greater, true understanding and celebration of their beliefs and culture, it's still a small, fledgling movement. * Having said that, while I absolutely believe there's much more we can do in having the fullest rights and liberties of our truest natives recognized, while I believe our earliest ancestors cheated and wronged themselves just as illegal immigrants do now, it doesn't change the reality that we are a nation with established principles and ideals. I'm all for immigration in the legal sense, for I believe we are a nation of immigrants, a cultural melting pot molded and built on diversity, and immigrants have truly brought color and inspiration to the culture and character of our national community. I myself absolutely love enjoying a nice vegetarian mole burrito and a nice tall glass of Tampoco fruit juice every Cinco De Mayo, and love celebrating the traditional beliefs and festivities in which many south of the border have held true to heart for hundreds of years. Like I've said, my concerns on this issue have nothing to do with race or class. This is about equality, about preserving our national principles and ideals, in showing the world that anyone has an opportunity to live and lead the American dream, and it can absolutely happen if you are patient and respect our ideals. There is always a legal way about making that dream reality, and I'm all for keeping legal immigration at its current level to see to it this opportunity endures. But the bottom line is, there are tens of thousands who choose not to do so, and cheat opportunity merely to exploit our services and the opportunity of others. I have no sympathy for that, as it only stalls the hard-earned and deserving opportunities of others and promotes inequality, even injustice, and while I do recognize that this huge issue is also due in part to their home governments not tackling and resolving the social issues that encourage tens of thousands to migrate northward, the fact that instead of choosing to stay and challenge their local leaders and promote positive social change in their own communities, and prefer to just take advantage of some other nation's services just strikes me as selfish. I don't want or mean to sound insensitive here by any means, but I feel there's too much at stake here, and if we allow ourselves to continue moving down this path, what value will our principles and values have, what will being the "land of opportunity" mean if anything? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Noah, I agree with you completely. One is torn both ways on this topic. I've lived in Latin countries for many years. I know the people, their way of life, the good and the bad. I know the poverty many live in. I've seen small children hide behind cars and bushes at outdoor cafes, waiting to run up and grab a scrap of food off a plate and run away. I've seen their eyes shine at the mention of America. Fine, some of our more illustrious alley participants may speak of how the world views America with disdain and how we have fallen in the eyes of the world but, believe me, for average people, especially the poor, America is still THE great hope, the vision that all things are possible. They respect and appreciate the United States more than many of the Americans who live here do, those who demand based solely on their birthright. These people do not have that birthright and yet they do have the desire to work to better their lives and support their families.... ...and yet there are indeed rules and laws to be followed. I don't believe the government is harsh in these rules. They do not forbid foreigners from coming in to try to better themselves. They only require that it is done orderly and properly, fill out the forms and make the request. Is that so hard to do? There are many who pay more to smugglers who promise to get them in than they would pay to apply for a green card. Illegal immigrants are here ILLEGALLY. It is ludicrous that they can march as illegals and make demands. They have no right to make demands. As Ron has happily pointed out to me many times, right actually matters. Laws actually matter, be it sleep deprivation at Gitmo, Bush lying or coming into the country illegally. It's wrong. There would still be a situation, though, even if every immigrant here were legal. They would still get the jobs, willing to do things others wouldn't, willing to work for less. What would be the solution to that? There is only one feasible one that I don't think we will ever see in our lifetimes. Americans who sit home with their welfare checks and food stamps, declaring they won't work for less than this or that or whatever might actually have to change their way of thinking and take these jobs, might have to stop expecting to be taken care of and begin taking care of themselves. As i said, i don't expect to see that happening. But that's a completely different situation. As far as the immigrants are concerned, as i said, my first point is that they are here illegally. My second point is the one that makes my blood boil and that is that these people here illegally demand rights, demand governments benefits, education, medical coverage, driving privileges, etc.........and what makes my blood boil even more is that they get it. How ludicrous can it get? The government is saying 'You cannot be here illegally....BUT, if you manage to make it past the security we will reward you and give you benefits.' Beam me up, Scotty. I can respect someone who even sneaks into the country to better their lives or earn money to help their families but I have NO respect for those who do that and then demand to be taken care of by the American government and taxpayere dollars. They demand what their own country will not give them. Not only do they take from the funds legal citizens contribute to, they are also detrimental to the economy. Money revolves. That's how the economy works. You earn money, you spend it which goes to companies that use it to pay employees who spend it, etc, etc, etc. Right now Mexico's largest source of revenue, over even tourism, is money sent there by immigrants here, many of them illegal. This is money taken out of the country which breaks the chain of circulation our economy depends on. My third point involves their unwillingness to learn our language, incorporate themselves into our way of life, the lack of allegiance to our flag and anthem.....but i don't even want to get started on these points.....I could go on forever! Countries are splintered and decimated by points like these. Can illegal immigration be stopped? Not likely. There are too many ways to get in. Can employers be stopped from hiring them? Again, not likely. Can they be stopped from receiving government aid, drivers licenses, medical benefits, education, etc.....yes, they can. We simply need a government that will do it. |
||
|
Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Several felonies have been committed, with only Illegal Entry being a misdeamnor. The rest are federal prison felonies for anyone else apparently. Those being falsification of federal and state documents: birth certificate, social security number and driver license. No hablez Angles? No problemo! You're an American? Up against the wall and spread em, bud! How's that for a nice perversion of legality. Here illegally, get a pass. Here legally and get a Miranda recitation. Shame not many of you were in Arizona last year during the massive sting operation against ADOT for illegal licenses. There were many state employees who were brought up on federal charges for issuing driver licenses, state ID cards and CDLs based on falsified applications, birth certificates, social security numbers, and faked authorized presence documents for payment/favors under the table. One crazy thing was learning of 32 foreign nationals all living out of the same PO box in San Luis. That was listed as their residence, with the Mailboxes Inc phone number as their home number. I hear ya Noah and understand your view, as I'm 1/8 Texas Comanche. Howsoever, let's keep Native American issues to another thread, since if I espoused my own View that would be a thread hijack. Trust me on this.  Break a federal law to get here, then several federal and state laws to stay here, then demand that your demands be met or you will attempt to hold the host nation's economy hostage. Call me silly, but that sure sounds like blackmail to me. And as far as our National Anthem being in Spanish, I've no issue with that at all. The Anthem has been sung in many languages. But none of those other renditions ever changed the words to suit their own political message. And that's what burns my butt. By the by, most illegals don't 'pay their way' as they do not pay income taxes which fund those social/medical programs from which so many here illegally enjoy. If paid in cash or personal check, there are no withholdings. If paid on a false or multiple SSN, yes there's withholdings but that methodology is highly illegal. Does anyone really believe that all identity theft is used for credit manipulation and not for illegal immigrants to have Authorized Presence? |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
For what it's worth, here's my take on your dream Michael: Firstly, I don't believe it's such an easy issue that we can blithely take a firm stand on either side. You may discount the connection between our past and present circumstances, yet it is not only applicable, but plays a role as well. One can form the analogy, as Ron did, to the Native Americans of the past - though I still don't believe it's that direct; where we pushed out the Native Americans by brute force, decimating their lands, their food sources, killing them by the thousands, today, this is a much more passive form of encroachment. Another mention from the past, in regard specifically to Mexicans: we're still sitting on land that we took from them in the past as well... remember how history tells us of kicking the Mexicans out of several southern states? Perhaps this attempt is nothing other than a less violent, more subversive manner of reclamation? A side note, before I forget - it's easy to lay down the claim that anyone opposed to allowing immigrants amnesty is prejudiced against Mexicans. This is a more narrow view than actually proclaiming prejudice: by far the largest majority of illegal (and legal, for that matter) immigrants are Mexican or Latin American nationals. When you're the poster child for a group, you're going to be the face people put up when they discuss the group. For the record, I am as opposed to amnesty for ALL groups of people, whether they be Mexican, Indian, French or Martians - too many people spend too much time in line, attempting to "do the right thing" to enter this country legally to allow those who bypass the formal, legal route, thus cheating the system and denigrating the value of those who work to the same ends. Amnesty isn't the answer. If someone enters the country illegally, they are criminals. If the laws are changed, that too might change - but at this moment, the laws are clear on the matter; there is a right way and a wrong way to enter the country. Sending "them" home isn't the answer either. Despite what many may like to think, we do need the immigrant labor we have here - no disrespect intended to anyone here or elsewhere, but as a society, we don't want to do the jobs that many immigrants do - we want the cush, high-paying jobs. I'm not suggesting that no natural or legal Americans will take less than a cush job, but them's the them's - how many natural Americans do you think you'll find picking strawberries on the side of the road? My proposed solution is to go the route that buys time for those already here, allowing them to pay back taxes for the time that they've been here illegally. Force them to register for a work visa, with the same time limits requiring it to be renewed like everyone else. They would then have a proscribed period of time (I think 3 years was thrown out) to study for the citizenship exam. If they passed, they could then become American citizens. If they failed (the first time), they could have another opportunity in a year. Failing that second opportunity, they would then be deported, with harsh consequences should they be found returning illegally. In regard to those who aren't currently in the country, but would like to? They can go by the same route as everyone else has. Anyone who chooses to illegally cross our borders should be immediately deported and turned over to the authorities of their country (the exception being those seeking political asylum). In this manner, we can bypass the whole amnesty farce, validating those who've worked to get into the country, while maintaining, for the most part, the status quo of our economic dependence on immigrant labor workers. Finally, it would send the message that, while we value people coming from outside our borders (as someone mentioned, we are a nation of immigrants), there is a correct way to go about and we will no longer brook those who choose to flaunt our laws. Just my thoughts on the matter. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thank you for the input, Chris. I still believe that the American Indian comparison serves no other purpose than a "What goes around comes around" comparison and I certainly don't think it's a conspiracy to reclaim lost lands, although I'm fairly confident there was a little tongue in cheek there. They come to live a lifestyle they do not have in their own country, to earn more than they could ever earn back home and to be able to send money back to their families and loved ones.....lofty ambitions and easily obtainable. We only ask that they do it legally. As far as the rest of your thoughts, I agree wholeheartedly and you stated them very well. It's good to know that, even when there are small disagreements, when the big issues come around you are wise enough to agree with me completely. (I shall now don my suit or armor and wait..) |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
aw, c'mon Michael - it's just as unlikely that i'd make a tongue-in-cheek statement as it is that you'd make a sarcastic quip! |
||
|
Liz Sinclair Member
since 2006-05-06
Posts 93Atlantis |
I'm in Dallas, Tx. This is an extremely hot issue here. The one aspect of this issue that irritates me is the educational issue. I have a child in middle school. In her class alone, there are 8 children who do not speak English. In the classroom, the teachers spend half their time with the English speaking students and the other half with the Spanish speaking students. You don't have to know calculus to figure this out. My child is getting half an education. The child that doesn't speak English is also only getting half. They're both getting screwed out of a fundamental right...their education! This may sound trivial and I certainly don't mean it that way. But it's very irritating. I am all for people making a better life for themselves. We all want that and we all deserve that. However, achieving that should not be at anothers expense. |
||
|
inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
I am tired of hearing that only illegals will work, there are many Americans who can and would take the jobs, but most companies request that you speak Spanish to work for them. As an American I am told to follow the law or be punished, I expect anybody who wants to become an American to do it legally, or be picked up and made to leave my country. For those who hire and pay illegals, they should be punished. Balladeer, I read your posts all the time, and find that I agree with you 99% of the time. Sometimes I'd like to respond to you, but after reading some of the other responses against you, I just get fed up with the same old garbage they put out and I give up. I'm just glad that you don't give up and keep standing up for how you feel. Thank you. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thank you, into2B. I sppreciate your kind words and your support. God will see fit to close my mouth one day but, until He does, lips will continue to flap. |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I heard the New York Mayor Bloomberg say that if Illegal immigrants would be deported, it would shut New York City down, as they are doing jobs that American's won't do. http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=60729 Honesty, this comment to me is so frustrating/so demeaning/so unrealistic and a perfect example of how businesses control the decissions of our country. 1. What did we do before immigration? 2. Businesses hire illegal immigrants for minumin wage or less...and in doing so, they've been reaping the benifits of such, sitting high on the hog for years...of course Americans wouldn't work for minumin wage or less, how can anyone live on that salary today? Illegals live together, many families in one household. 3. If businesses hired Americans, they'd be forced to pay a decent wage, match social security, and pay benefits. Businesses have been capitalizing for years, by using illegal immigrants as employees, and like everything else, this buys votes. I'm not against anyone wanting to live in the US...but they should be a credit to their community...learn English, teach their children English and assume the responsiblity of becoming a citizen of the US. This should be accomplished by controlled supervision and putting our immigration laws into effect. Some would like to tell us that deporting these illegals would be costly...well, right now, it's costing the tax payers of the US much more money then they are aware of...as these illegals are entitled to our systems funding, welfare, tax free paychecks..etc. This, to me, divides the country...and is certainly not cost effective for the US as a whole. It should be a priviledge to be an American...realizing the responsibility of such...to both citizens and country. Deer, I am so totally with you on this issue. Thank you for the opportunity to contribute my point of views on this subject. |
||
|
Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
For what it's worth I have 2 cents to throw in the pot. Mike, as you know, Canada has a more hospitable social welfare system, unfortunately. Therefore, an ever increasing number of illegal immigrants are attempting to enter the United States from our Canadian borders now, and we know it. They come in through Canada by claiming their refugee status through a far too relaxed refugee procedure. All it takes when they arrive here is to make a written application and promise to attend a hearing. They attend, say a few words, and then are released, and free to go wherever they wish, and they do. Many cross the border to the U.S. just as soon as possible after they enter, and Canadian Immigration has lost them! Unfortunately, those people all seek the United States with the hopes and dreams of better economic prosperity, that great "American Dream" you offer. Because millions of legal trips across the Canada-United States border are made each and every single day, as both the US and Canada are each other's largest trading partner, border officials are reluctant to interfere with legal commerce and traffic between the countries by creating more time-consuming border-crossing procedure, and therefore they get in. Trust me on this, we sure have our own issues going with the "legal" immigrants here, never mind the illegal ones. I want our immigration procedures really tightened up, and I think a lot here are working toward that goal, so it may help you in the long run. Just lately we are seeing people finally getting deported, and rightfully so, but we kept them on our dollar all the time it took to cut the red tape and get them home. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, Mysteria, we offer the American dream. MacDonald's also offers hamburgers but you still have to stand in line and then pay for them May both of our countries get this sorted out...LeeJ...I agree with your thoughts completely. Thank you for sharing them |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Mike, saw this and thought you might like to read...hope the link works, if it doesn't let me know...this is the way it should be throughout America and used to be...our laws on this subject over the years have been completely ignored http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-quotejul14,0,4074747.story?coll=all-news-hed |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: quote: LeeJ Two questions spring to mind: 1 Would you give citizenship to anyone who fulfilled your criteria 2 Would you remove citizenship from anyone who fell short |
||
|
rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
What if they can't afford even a green card? As for stopping illegal immigration, where there is a will there is a way. I don't think we could stop it. We need to fix Mexico first. Nip it in the bud. Go to the root of the problem fix that, than work our way up. The reason they come here is cause Mexico is in such bad shape, that they want a better life. They maybe don't do it legally, because they could be worried the U.S.A might refuse their requests. Face it, the way it is now, if we leave Mexico in such bad shape, we won't ever stop illegal immigration. There is so many open spots among our border that they could get in through. I would cost alot of money to block off all of that land. People who are desperate to save their familes, and desperate to get a differnt life, they will find a way to get in our country. I don't see anyone complaining about people who go back and forth between the U.S and Canada. There is no big scandal about that either. Also, would you deport the hundreds of Latinas here illegally who would be going home to die. The amount of time to apply for a green card, would be enough to kill those who once left to get out of gang life, or to get out of stealing, or who gave up jobs to come. |
||
|
Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Can't afford a greencard? Those are practically free, even if you didn't compare/contrast them to the current goings rates, in USD, which Coyotes demand for 'safe' passage into hostile environmental situations like the desert wastes of New Mexico and Arizona. They are considered desert wastes for a very good reason: they are. If you truly can't afford one, the State Department, at taxpayer expense, will give you one. |
||
|
iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
I am surprised no one has brought up the "North American Union" in this thread. I was hoping to see some discussion on that here. |
||
|
Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
That's another thread which I started some time back, but it got rather quiet after I was painted a racist for questioning the legality of folks in the country illegally. Search for NAU or similiar and you should find it. Found. /pip/Forum6/HTML/001358.html [This message has been edited by Alicat (07-16-2006 06:54 PM).] |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Good Morning... Grinch wrote LeeJ Two questions spring to mind: 1 Would you give citizenship to anyone who fulfilled your criteria Not my criteria Grinch, but the existing immigration laws on the books... http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/index.htm I saw a group of "Legal Immigrants" discussing this issue on TV, who are American Citizens and they felt the same way. They are US citizens and very proud to be working members of the community...they felt it a slap in the face to US citizens and to them...I admire them a great deal, and am very happy to welcome them as member of the neighborhood, shows they are law abiding citizens and would be an asset to the community. 2. Would you remove citizenship from anyone who fell short? What do you mean by falling short? Citizenship, once gained, can not be removed, can it? Isn't that against the law?... The FBI just last week, caught 10 men coming through the Mexican Boarder who have terrorist ties, with the telephone numbers of their contacts who are based here in New York City, written on the bottom of their feet. Did you know that 1/3 of illegal immigrants are criminals? Sex offenders, drug runners, etc.? They drive cars without car insurance, without a license, without speaking English, they cannot read signs, they obtain illegal documentation, social security cards, etc., and they feel it is their right to do so? They fear no consequences for their actions? They feel it is their right to do so. The INS estimated in Jan. of 2000 there were 7 million illegal aliens living in the US, and growing by 1/2 a million a year. Does anyone know the numbers now? There are many of them who ARE Good Workers, Good people, but unfortunately, there are many who take advantage of our federal systems...but is it right for them to be breaking the law? Is it right for them to be here illegally? Is it right for them to assume our laws do not apply to them. There must be controlled regulations & laws enforced and abided by, otherwise, things become chaotic and corrupt... and this situation has... http://freedomfolks.blogspot.com/2006/07/why.html Have Illegal Immigration laws slid off the books? How did this situation ever escalate to this degree to begin with? (shacking my heard) If it were up to me, I'd deport every illegal immigrant and for example only allow, lets say 20 illegals into the U.S. at a time. They should be expected to be law abiding people, learn English, go through an educational system of the immigration requirements…just as it was before…when they pass and become citizens, allow 20 more in…etc. Here's an example…I have a Chinese friend who came here. She couldn't speak English. She learned the language, worked her way through college...and is now a legal American, who is a working member of the community. She is proud to be an American, (her very words are “It Is A Privilege & a dream come true, for me, to be an American) and will tell you that, and also feels the very same way on I do on illegal immigration. It isn't right, to allow all these people in this country illegally...it's a recipe for disaster... Sometimes we have to make decisions that are unpopular, perhaps they seem unfair, but, the law is the law, and there should be no preference (and by the way, this is how problems start, by manipulating, or changing laws to accommodate criminals, including illegal immigrants. It has to be that way, sorry to say. Yanno, there are an awful lot of citizens out there who uphold and abide the law…what does this say to them? I believe if your hearts in the right place, you wouldn’t want to break the law, there would be guilt, a feeling of fear for breaking the law, and yet, this is exactly what we’re loosing in the U.S. along with respect for life, respect for rules and the law. If and when people feel that laws do not apply to them…what happens? What is the long term effect? Immigration laws are not something new, unfortunately, they have been something ignored for many years by our government, both parties are involved here. I fear when our government officials believe they are beyond the laws…this starts a trickle down effect…and filters through out society, and our Illegal Immigration problem right now, is a perfect example. I feel anyone has the right to capture a dream, to fulfill their hopes of becoming an American...but by the law and for the law... with respect and regard for the other members of the community. Would you allow someone to come to your home and stay and break all your house rules? What applies to one, must apply to everyone. [This message has been edited by LeeJ (07-17-2006 11:33 AM).] |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
LeeJ Let me put it another way, if there is a set of criteria that allows the granting of citizenship do you believe that anyone who meets those criteria should be given citizenship? Whether my second question was legal or not doesn’t really matter, I was interested in what YOU believe should happen. My opinion, for what it’s worth is that if a set of criteria exists by which individuals are given or denied citizenship there should be a mechanism in place that ensures existing citizens are fit to hold that position. That all citizens were required to fulfil the criteria and citizenship denied to all equally if they failed to measure up. Without that mechanism the granting of citizenship would seem to be unfair, people would be denied citizenship when they clearly could be better citizens than some that already held that position. If you have to be a Ferrari owner to be in the Ferrari Owners Club isn’t it reasonable to withdraw membership to an existing member who sells his Ferrari? Grinch |
||
|
rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
Might i mention that every single one of the Illegal immigrants are criminals! thats why they are called Ilegal!. but yes im sure u are right in that 1\3 are probaly drug runners such like that. |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hi Grinch and Good Morning Hmmmm, ok, so what your saying is, if you don't have a red Ferrari, then your exempt from the club... Ok, here's my thoughts on the subject and clearly I'm not on the fence with this issue. I believe the process would be long and hard, but yes, certainly a criteria should be set in place…The already Immigration laws/rules and regulations should be reviewed, perhaps revised and stringently implemented, to ensure the safety of immigrants and US citizens, alike. The initial visa review process should be enforced with an in depth name check, from our world’s security data bases, comprehensive information drawn from all countries and their law enforcement agencies. If security concerns are raised, then the process should be delayed until that person can be cleared by additional checks, interviews and information, not only gathered but stored in the world data base. Registration should be mandatory and a must to live here regardless of intent to visit, work, go to school or become a citizen. All Illegals would be finger printed and must, while in this country, adhere to all rules, regulations and laws or be deported, never to be able to obtain a visa or citizenship to America again. An illegal immigrant would not be able to purchase a gun until they are cleared and become a citizen...why, how would they know our gun laws if they cannot read? If caught, they would be deported, never again to apply for citizenship. While here, they should have to report back to immigration profligately, regarding any change of personal information, and all this information shall be stringently monitored, including their where a bouts, which should always be known by our government agencies in control & constantly monotoring their activity.....again, if violated, they should be deported without passing go, without collecting $200.00. No one is exempt from the due process. While here in America, they should be expected to attend English classes, along with driving classes and instructed on the proper I.D. they must and will maintain on their person while here. Classes on our laws would be mandatory, along with the due process they must fulfill… If any car owner issues them an automobile, without the proper I.D. and a temporary immigration driver’s license, then that person shall be fined heavily. The immigrant will be expected to purchase and maintain proper insurance on their car. If an immigrant owns an automobile, and is caught without car insurance, they will be deported. (Adding here, according to my son, I cannot tell you the amount of immigrants who are driving illegally, without car insurance, they cannot read, therefore, cannot understand road signs. An illegal immigrant will not operate an automobile, until they can pass a drivers test, including reading and understanding English. In stead of having bi-lingual schools, there should be mandatory English classes for students, while in school. While here, anyone who employs immigrants shall maintain basic health insurance for that person, pay into social security for that person, reporting to the immigration bureau that they are employing an illegal and taking said taxes and social security out of their checks. Any employer who hires an illegal shall be monitored by the bureau, and if they are found to be hiring immigrants, illegally, they shall be fined heavily and according to their offenses by judged by jury. They will also be fined for paying illegals less then minimum wage. Any employer of illegal immigrants must fill out forms for each illegal they hire, which would be monitored by the said agency (s). Now, as far as my stands for any illegal immigrant that becomes a citizen of the U.S., (your Ferrari Club) once they are a citizen, they must adhere to all the laws. If a law is broken, then they are dealt with like any other citizen, respected as such, as they are innocent until proven guilty through our judicial system. Once they are a citizen of the U.S. they may of course maintain an American life style, but…while here as an illegal immigrant, they are not allowed to participate in any protest what-so-ever or vote, until they become a legal Citizen of the United States. You stated this… Without that mechanism the granting of citizenship would seem to be unfair, people would be denied citizenship when they clearly could be better citizens than some that already held that position. I agree, but, in the same, laws are laws and if someone has a criminal background, they should not be allowed to enter the U.S. or become a citizen. I’m talking drug involvement, terrorist ties, murder, rape and/or a history of armed robbery. We have enough of our own criminals running around free in this country. You stated…..”If you have to be a Ferrari owner, to be in the Ferrari Owners Club isn’t it reasonable to withdraw membership to an existing member who sells his Ferrari?” Understand fully the comparison you’re making…but as long as we have citizens in the United States who are walking free…how can you deport anyone? Then I say all criminals should be treated the same…kept under stringent surveillance and incarcerated for whatever time our judicial system dictates by jury. That said, if an immigrant knows that he/she might be deported if they broke a law after they become a U.S. citizen, such as terrorist ties, drug running, rape, murder, or armed robbery, perhaps the fear of deportation, might just keep them in check, but, I maintain, if that be the case, then we must also crack down on our already existing criminals in the U.S. who are citizens, but a menace to society, but that would be another thread, wouldn’t it. Actually, I believe if our immigration laws and regulations would be stringently put into place, and executed it might also encourage & strengthen America to be more stringent with our own criminals…our laws really do need to be addressed, yanno, adding, no one would be exempt from, regardless of race, creed, religion, title…period. I believe as in anything else, if there are rules to follow, it illeviates chaos and corruption. sometimes rules may not always seem fair, but they are there for a reason and should be respected by all. Allow me to remind you, if I may, and this is not directed at you Grinch...but us all...when we visit someone else's home, we are expected to respect their rules...and that goes for country, state, family, neighbors, etc. (Respect is a word, that should be remembered at all times). Thank you Grinch for asking... |
||
|
rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
some of them can read. and wut does protesting have to do with anything? they can protest all they want i think. thats like saying you have to be a citizen to dislike bush. if they do t like something they should be allowed to protest it |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
rhia_5779 if your visiting China, or any other country in the world, and you don't like something, what do you think would happen if you took the American Flag and protested up and down in front of everyone, and why do you think it would happen? Or better yet, if you went to your relatives home, and they served something you didn't like, what would you do? They are visiting this country and not a member of the community, in fact, they are ILLEGAL, (not yelling but emphasizing the issue) actually they are and not all, but most are taking advantage of our system, driving without licenses, some of them have several social security cards for every sur name they own...I mean, to them, anything goes...they know nothing of humbleness, what it means to be a visitor let alone the word respect. It is a disgrace to Americans and this land, that they have the nerve to protest. Sorry, to be so blunt and I apologize for my cut and dry critique, but and this is only my opinion, so so many people today, know nothing about respect and humbleness. They believe that everything is owed to them, and they have the right to expect it, without putting a foot forward or concern as to how their actions effect/affect others. Here they are, a group of illegal aliens, here only b/c our laws have been ignored...and they have the nerve to form protests? They have the right to vote, and they are not citizens, they cannot speak English or Read English...they drive and cannot read signs, know our traffic laws and endanger others, not to mention, how many terrorsits slip through every day? Laws are laws which should be upheld and no one but no one should expect a free ride, just as no one but no one should expect to put me up if I knock on their door. How would you like it if I came and lived with you, on you, didn't pay my half of the rent, or grocery bill, but I live there...same thing. I think it's awful that citizens of the US have employed them for years and have reaked the benefits of paying them horrible salaries paid nothing into social security, no taxes, etc...and they're going to cry now that our country couldn't get along without illegals, as they would have us believe. They should be the ones fined heavily for hiring ones so down on their luck and willing to work for anything. I think it's a disgrace. Americans couldn't live on that kind of salary, plus, Americans don't live together in one home...therefore could not survive week to week making that kind of salary. Americans should be ashamed for hiring them, it is an insult to this country and to human dignity. Oh and also, we need to fix this coutry first, before we can be of help to fixing other countries. Do you know how many countries have borrowed monies from us, never paying us back? Have you any idea why Mexico has their own president? I'm not against anyone who wants to live in this country but it must be organized, and it can be fixed, no matter what anyone else says, this is a problem that shouldn't be and could have been avoided....not to mention, it is a problem that will divide nationalities if it persists, as it is breaking the camels back. That is what I believe, but I'm open to suggestions. Just my thoughts. |
||
|
Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
I don't think the blame for having the 'nerve' for protesting is a burden the illegals should bear alone ... what about the native, or naturalized US citizens that not only cheered them on, but perhaps goaded them into it to further their own political ends? The US began as a country of immigrants, yes. However there are only so many citizens that a social system can support - so many mouths it can feed, if you will - whether they be working or living on the public dole. There are only so many jobs, places to live, schools and so forth available and they must be sufficient for the needs of ALL the residents, legal and illegal, of the US. Over 30 million US citizens live at or beneath the poverty level. Let's assume half of them get public assistance of some kind. Then let's look at all the assertions of the pro-immigration groups that say immigrants do jobs US citizens don't want, for less pay. Then let's say that since they take the lower paying jobs, there are an equal number of impoverished illegals living in the US, and that they also qualify for the same level of public assistance. If the money is only there to pay for 150 million of them, who gets paid, and who gets turned away? |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Skyfrye I don't think the blame for having the 'nerve' for protesting is a burden the illegals should bear alone ... what about the native, or naturalized US citizens that not only cheered them on, but perhaps goaded them into it to further their own political ends? Yes, I thought about that during the protests, but forgot to mention my feelings on this subject while writing and I agree whole heartidly. The US began as a country of immigrants, yes. However there are only so many citizens that a social system can support - so many mouths it can feed, if you will - whether they be working or living on the public dole. There are only so many jobs, places to live, schools and so forth available and they must be sufficient for the needs of ALL the residents, legal and illegal, of the US. Your right here as well, but...my heart would hang heavy agreeing totally with this. If people who are hard working respectable people want to come into the U.S. to escape a horrible life...to better themselves and their families, then how can we turn them away? If they want to go through the system legally? Over 30 million US citizens live at or beneath the poverty level. Let's assume half of them get public assistance of some kind. Then let's look at all the assertions of the pro-immigration groups that say immigrants do jobs US citizens don't want, for less pay. Then let's say that since they take the lower paying jobs, there are an equal number of impoverished illegals living in the US, and that they also qualify for the same level of public assistance. Good Point... If the money is only there to pay for 150 million of them, who gets paid, and who gets turned away? I don't believe there is anyone in the U.S. who wants to see human beings treated unfairly...I really don't. But in the same, no one wants to feel like they're being taken advantage of. I believe it's the hard core expectations of the illegals, not to mention 9/11 that really grabs most Americans by the throat, instead of their hearts. This should have never happened...it never should have come this far, but it did, and there's no going back. What we can hope for is change, and fairness, on both side of the coin. Understanding and our governement to put our laws in place and demand that they are abided by, for all Americans. Thank you Mike for this thread and the opportunity to discuss...I wish there were an answer that would help everyone all the way around...unfortunately, sometimes we must make unpopular decissions...and we're not all always going to agree with those decisions...all we can do is try and learn and hope for the best. Human life, should be put first and foremost, no matter what country your from...but in the same, we cannot sit back and allow chaos to take place either, that way, we can be no help to anyone. |
||
|
Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
quote: We're not talking about legal immigrants, though. If you want to put it that way, should we turn away a Mexican person who has applied for entry and is patiently waiting his turn at the American dream because one of his more rash countrymen got here first, illegally, and we only have the resources to care for one of them? There are many reasons for regulating immigration, not the least of which is that we can theoretically control the rate of population growth. Despite all that America stands for, we cannot house all the unfortunate of the world; it's just not physically nor economically possible. That's where foreign policy and foreign aid come into play to help pick up some of that slack. |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
sky part of your quote is what I was referring to... quote: quote: unfortunateky sky, there must be order, which means, if I'm standing in line waiting for tickets and they run out of tickets the person before me, am I still entitled to a ticket? I'm going to add one more thing to your last comment Sky We cannot as a whole, as a nation, community or individual help someone else, until we are in good shape, and I just think, we have a ways to go. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Perhaps the law should be changed, Lee? I would guess that not more than one born-and-bred American out of a thousand really "knows" English, and probably even fewer could pass the written tests your Chinese friend had to pass. Sadly, you and I don't have to work at being Americans and, very clearly, most don't. Citizenship is generally something given, not something earned. In that way, I guess it's a bit like human rights? Unfortunately, we can't really deport someone for splitting an infinitive or habitually appearing to not know the difference between the possessive 'your' and the contraction you're, if only because we don't have anywhere we can send them. quote: I don't think it's right, no. I also don't think it's right when a born-and-bred American ignores the speed limit or fails to come to a complete stop at a posted intersection. Respect for the law in a civilized society is of paramount importance. We should probably remember, however, that respect has to be earned, not simply demanded. Much of the problem with immigration laws, I think, is the same problem we face with drug laws today and with prohibition laws in the past. Slap a 25-mile-per-hour speed limit on a country road and you are going to encourage a LOT of people to break the law. Laws that can't realistically be enforced essentially train people to become criminals. Indeed, I know of no better way to promote disrespect for the law than to pass silly laws that make little sense or promote unfair regulations that affect some and not others. As Grinch as repeatedly implied, Lee, until you are ready to impose the same conditions and constraints on your own citizenship that you would impose on that of others, you are essentially expecting people to meekly accept your unfairness. Historically, that doesn't seem to work too well. Witness the fall of Rome, the French Revolution, or even our own Boston Tea Party. Unfair laws will, and I suspect probably should, be broken. Unfortunately for society, when someone is branded a criminal, even if unfairly, they have less to lose should they break other laws. People tend to rise -- or fall -- to our expectations of them. Without respect for the law, society crumbles in anarchy. In my opinion, breaking the law in never okay and, in that, I think we are all in agreement. However, rigid enforcement is not the only or necessarily the best way to engender respect. The first step is always going to be enacting GOOD laws, ones that are fair and enforceable. In my opinion, Lee, every single problem you've raised isn't a problem with immigrants but rather a problem with people. Immigrants to this country certainly aren't the only ones breaking laws or abusing a system that is increasingly becoming a socialized quagmire. I think don't the problems we face with welfare, schools, health care, ad nausea, are caused by immigrants. I think they're caused by Americans who believe they are entitled to a good life. Which brings me to a comment made by Balladeer ... quote: We're about half-way in agreement, Mike. I don't think it's in our own best interest to withhold education from anyone, because ignorance only perpetuates the problems we're trying to solve. Let's try, instead, to raise a generation that knows better? Similarly, refusing to allow people to apply for a driver's license only forces them deeper underground and insure what little regulation we can apply can no longer be applied. We do need to make getting a *valid* license more difficult, but a recent trip to my local DMV and several overheard conversations suggest that is already being started. As to the rest, however, I agree completely. They shouldn't be entitled to government aid or medical benefits. Then again, I don't think most Americans should be entitled to it, either. As you implied in the same post, they should get off their collective butts and work for it. The American Dream is an opportunity, not a guaranteed entitlement. Again, these aren't problems with immigrants. These are problems with people. quote: Helping others is a bit like having babies, I think. If everyone waited until they could afford it, until the circumstances were optimum and there was no personal risk of being hurt, I suspect a whole lot of us wouldn't be alive today. When you look out your window and see a group of hungry people huddling in the street, it's easy to give in to your first reaction and immediately lock all the doors, especially when you can clearly see that all those people look and talk and act differently than you and the rest of your neighbors. Obviously, that doesn't solve any problems for the hungry. Less obviously, however, it doesn't solve your problem, either. Your locked door is a lie, a fantasy, at the very best, providing nothing but a false sense of security. From the Great Wall of China to the infamous Berlin Wall, no barrier has yet to stand successfully against the indomitable power of desperation. |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Morning Ron you said... quote: this one I totally disagree with...it is costing American Tax payers billions and making life for the middle class and lower class even more difficult. I'm for helping Mexico, might we find out why so many Mexicans are fleeing to this country? Why they are being exploited by American business owners who are paying them mimimum wages or less... Why not help clean up Mexico, & encourage Vicente Fox to clean up a corrupt government as well as other Latin American Governments? I don't understand why these Illegals believe they should be above our laws? Ron, it's also about regulating our social structure of it's people, enforcing their safety? Yes? Perhaps some of our immigration laws are outdated and need reform....but certainly not by rewarding those illegals already here permanent legalization? If we do that Ron, then those that continue to come across the boarder will also be granted amnesty, how will that help our situation? Our now ever present immigration Services is in dire need of enforcement... How can we help others, when our own country cannot help it's own homeless, it's own people going hungry? It's own children who have no parents, in adoption agencies, who are declining? Actually that is what I meant and should have been more specific. |
||
|
Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Ah, you were right Balladeer. History Channel had a segment about border patrols and talked about Operation Wet back. 1953 under President Eisenhower and led to the deportation of over 1 million illegal immigrants, with about another 2 million heading back to Mexico of their own accord rather than risk getting caught. Depending on what sites you read, the Operation was either draconian or simple law enforcement, but irrespective of revisionistic stances, it was very politically popular during the early 1950's. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hey, 'cat! Can you imagine any such operation like that today being named Operation Wet back?? My God, the ACLU and hundreds of other organizations would have fits! Tens of thousands of Latins would be filing lawsuits against the government, Bush would be called the most insensitive, biased, insulting destroyer of human rights and civil liberties in history and Oprah would go ballistic. Guess we've come a long way...... (side note) As I typed in the word wet back, forgetting the space in between the words, I got an "Innapropriate Content" notice and a refusal to print it. We HAVE come a long way! |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Maybe it's time to write a new New Colossus. |
||
|
LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Jumping in kind of late here.. Let me say first that I have nothing against any race or nationality, just people who break the law, no matter where they are from. I agree with the poster that emphasized the impact on public schools. It shouldn't be the job of a teacher with 30 children to teach 15 of them the language of the nation. That is a job that shouldn't be done inside the school system, since all the other students come in knowing the language, as they should. All the children suffer and performance declines. I'm going to be teaching high school, and I'm deliberately avoiding jobs in the south because I don't want to have to deal with that sort of thing. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Another thing is that many of them AVOID learning the language beacuse they want to 'preserve their culture'. If they liked their culture that much, why didn't they stay in their land of origin? Certainly keep your traditions, LEGAL immigrants, but also learn the language of the nation you have chosen to live in! It's only logical. Illegal immigrants break the law of America each and every day that they live here. With every child they send to school, every road they walk/drive on, every time they go to the doctor on medicare's tab, they are STEALING from honest, hard working Americans (from every ethnicity, including LEGAL immigrants). The existance of criminals doesn't make America more 'diverse' or add to us in any way, it takes away from us. Any system that would award these people with citizenship is basically giving a big gift to people who manage to con the American people for a certain set of years. Immigration is a wonderful thing, when it is done LEGALLY and they learn the national language of the nation they have chosen. Music pours over the sense |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
