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A home without a wall, |
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| How to Join | Member's Area | Private Library | Search | Sanctuary | Login | |
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| Main Forums | Discussion | Tech Talk | Mature Content | Archives |
A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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PIP is not perfect |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space 
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There's a disturbing trend among alley threads that target aspects of PIP, the love it or leave it response. Most critiques are met with almost hostile replies such as: *find another site *don't you know how hard Ron works *pay for the webspace *become a mod and my favourite * NOT ME! Now if the opening comment is hostile i can understand this but often it's the most harmless remarks. You'll see very few people agree, and who would, considering the hostility the originator of the thread is often met with. Pip is full of problems all forums are, it's not a reflection of RON or the mods, with 7000 or so members there's obviously going to be problems. The most distrubing aspect of the responses is that a few of the mods or people responding to the threads often agree with the comments to me in private conversations or have dozens of critiques of their own. So why the silence? Why the turn of opinion? Worse still is the abundance of pseudonyms that I have learned of over the course of my year here. The common excuse is that they create them so that they can make more honest or controversial stances behind them. I thought PIP was an open exchange of ideas, why the fears and masks? Are we not adults? One wouldn't think so because one of the other problems with pip is the cliques. " i don't respond to her because she doesn't respond to mine" " I used to read him but then he broke up with so and so" Hmmm and here i was thinking it was about the poetry? It's sad what goes on behind the scenes at PIP but sadder still that people take offense to anyone who should point them out. So take a good look at things and yourselves before you meet complainers with the same old song and dance. and think what you want to think about me. Ron I adore the site I'm grateful you give us the space to post and chat but I'm sure you know you're not perfect and neither is the site and this thread is just an honest reflection of what i've seen in my time here. I'd simply like it to be it's best and i think honesty and poetry are the keys [This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-25-2003 02:42 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Raph--forgive me I'm a little foggy on this one--I'm not quite sure if there's a problem here you'd like addressed or what. Um...Oooooooo-kay. Pip isn't perfect. I'm following ya. Um. Now, what? Grin. Sorry, I sounded just like a MAN, didn't I? (I just heard myself saying, "I didn't expect you to DO anything about it, I just needed somebody to LISTEN.") I say that to men a lot.  So...if you want to DO something about it, I'm open for suggestions. But if you are just flamin' and complainin'--that's what the Alley is for I suppose. Sometimes I just come in here to growl or scream. It's all good. But apparently not perfect.  *chuckle* (Raph is gonna wanna pulverize me now. serenity ducks and runs...) |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
Aenimal, Well there are a lot of good observations in this post. I have on occasion probably been guilty of some of these things. But I do believe that when certain members get over the edge defensive that suggesting they find another site is not bad advice. However, I for one could have stated such a position in a more diplomatic manner. It does intrigue that you did not sign you name to this post after the comments about masks. Just curious... If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
You can duck in behind me if you'd like, serene one... I'll stand and take the shots anyday. Nobody ('cept one kindly wizard) has been here longer than I, so I guess I've seen it all. Our site has grown since the spring of 1999, Raph - but our philosophies have remained constant. Nothing about our commitment to writing has changed one iota. Nothing about our support for our members has changed. Nothing about our caring for each and every one's literary growth has altered even a smidgeon... Nothing about the way we handle "issues" is different. There are just more of them... The only thing that has changed is the number and the complexion of our membership-at-large. By definition, the membership has to be made up of "people." Think about it. Where there are people, there are agreements and there are diversities of opinion... there are happy people and there are sad/angry people... there is serenity (she's right behind me) and there is chaos... I could go on and on. I'm not touching the "Ron's not perfect" line - Because he'll only chastise me later for my opinion on that one...  We're a community of PEOPLE, Raph... That means we have to pick and choose our friends. Sometimes we choose wisely, and sometimes not. That's life. It's also "cyber-life" - Isn't it?... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
We interrupt this thread for a special report. Authorities are investigating the disappearance of "serenity blaze" who was last seen in the custody of two unidentified men wearing black trench coats. She was reportedly placed into a white volga, which was last seen turning down a side street marked "no entrance." Her family has not of yet released a statement, but we expect to have a comment from her husband as soon as he drinks a few beers after work. We choose not to add to the speculation that serenity had of late become obsessed with Russian authors, or if there is any connection between her choice of reading material and her recent disappearance. Stay tuned for a full report at five. (This post is intended for amusement purposes ONLY and not intended to replace your newspaper or local newscast.) |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Shhhhhhh....... Be vewy, vewy, qwiet... Stay serene... STAY, I say....  |
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S Arthur Grey Senior Member
since 2001-03-19
Posts 719woven by a poet's loom |
Serenity? "She was reportedly placed into a white volga" What the??? There is that long river in Europe, but . . .  (Darn, punch line got punched . . . er . . .erased! Didn't know that was one of "the words", Ron.) [This message has been edited by S Arthur Grey (08-25-2003 07:47 PM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Volvo? vroom vroom... [This message has been edited by Sunshine (08-25-2003 06:50 PM).] |
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Legion Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54 |
Aenimal, I agree almost entirely, the only part I’m not sure about is the name changing thing, I've had no fear whatsoever voicing my opinion over the years though I’ve done it using many different names. Not out of fear but simply because that was the name I was using at the time. Craig+ |
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S Arthur Grey Senior Member
since 2001-03-19
Posts 719woven by a poet's loom |
Aenimal, A couple of comments, if you don't mind. (I've been around for about half of PIP's existence and since a time when there were about half as many "members". But I don't know what goes on "behind the scenes" because I haven't been there.) If nothing else, this place is noticably human, which surprises me sometimes, given its "virtual" limitations. That means there is a lot of human "stuff" here. Arrogance, exibitionism, cowardice, honesty, passion, love and hate, among other things. It can be annoying if you let it, but I try to enjoy it. I've checked out other poetry sites, and I'm a member of some, but I don't see a reason to leave this one just yet. Cliques? Sure, but they are even tougher on some other sites. They don't need you? Ignore 'em. Just keep writing. Some folks find a huge amount of time to be here and it becomes a noticable chunk of their lives. Their personalities are going to show. "Worse still is the abundance of pseudonyms . . ." I can't speak for others, but I will tell you that I have several reasons for using this one. Among them is the hope that the poetry I submit under this name gets read for the poetry, not for another name. Vain hope, probably, and it will wear out in time. I also need another voice, and that is a reason I can not easily explain to you, especially if you have never wanted to be someone else. If you consider it hiding, well, so be it. /pip/Forum81/HTML/000731.html I would not have resonded to this thread if I did not respect your work and hope that you stick around. (Oh, and by the way, if you find another neat site, let me know . . .) Yours, s.a.g. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, I'll have to stand behind Serenity....not that the view isn't wonderful there! I simply don't see many traces of these problems you seem to feel is in abundance here. As far as saying "If you don't like it, leave it" I can assure you that mods will go many miles before using that line. They try to reason, to please, to explain, to offer alternatives....a variety of avenues. When none of them work and it's obvious the complaints are for complaints sake, then the only thing left to say is, "There's the door if you don't like it", and, believe me, that hasn't happened very often. As far a cliques, I challenge you to point us in the direction of any poetry site on the web that doesn't have them. it's human nature. It's also human nature not to associate with those you find offensive. Don't expect PIP, or any other organization, to be different. It ain't gonna happen. Multiple names? Why not? WHo does it hurt? It appears you seem to feel that it indicates some nefarious reason....doesn't have to at all. Some poets use different names for the different styles of poetry they write. Some use different names so their husbands will not get bent out of shape at harmless flirtations in replies. There are a variety of reasons to use other names that have nothing to do with underhanded dealings. It's easy to make blanket statements or accusations. Your points would carry more validity if you would care to share examples of what you are trying to say. Of course PIP is imperfect....but is it imperfect to a point that it's imperfectness needs to be discussed as a problem that needs to be solved or else? I need examples of that....otherwise the accusations become nothing more than ramblings..... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"I'm back." sheesh, I just went to happy hour, and see how rumors start?  (btw, a volga is a volva with an accent) and? *battin' eyelashes* @ Michael* Now, now, Raph. If the sum of is the whole of its parts, we'd have to first correct the flaws of the parts in order to ever hope to achieve perfection. And if you hope to find perfection, I abashedly admit, don't stand behind me--grin, that view may be lovely to some, but hardly perfect. and s.a.g.? EXHIBITIONISM?  Not here, not MOI!!!   |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
I agree with you Aenimal, people are human though. I for one am glad I am perfect. slience..HAHAHAHAHHAHA. I just don't get the point why people feel the need to post if they hate this site. just leave. That has been my only problem. As for name changes, I have had a slew of them, okay three or four. But only because I never can remember my name or password when I get a new comp or reformat. I finally use a addy that I can remember. Is this site perfect? nothing in this world is perfect, except me. HAHAHAHAHHA okay, okay, on a seriouse note; when you put this many people together there is bound to be conflict. I have been here for oh awhile, and I still can't make any friends LOL, maybe it's because I stink?? hahaha. anyhoo, I respect your opinion and you have some very good points. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Karen the point is that just what it says in the title and in the statement Larry sign my name? you mean my real name? Raphael Giuffrida what's that mean alot of people know me. The masks i'm talking about are psuedonyms Nan I agree with you we have to choose our friends, at the same time it's a poetry site and friend or not certain poets should be recognized by talent not by cliques. My argument is a simple one. Pip is not perfect. No big surprise we all know this. My beef is that should anyone point this out there almost always met with some hostility as if they should keep it under the rug. My problem is that though some have openly discussed these problems with me in private they have turn quiet in here or worse state their opinions under a psuedonym. legion it only bothers when they mask themselves behind those names not the names themselves Sir Arthur I'm not disagreeing with you on any of those points. That was a point I made in my intitial post. That it can't be perfect because its a large forum and the huamn element always causes problems. My problem is that once these problems are brought up they are often met with hostility and a gang mentality of how dare you say that. If the originating post was hostile as we've seen before i understand it. When someone is merely pointing something out i don't. And this DOES happen. As for the names have as many as you want but if you're going to add to a thread or voice a strong opinion don't hide behind them so that nobody knows where its coming from As for the cliques they don't bother me none of this thread has anything to do with my work but i've seen the underbelly heard the stories and i find it disgraceful how some 'adults' have acted. Poets no less sigh Balladeer did i ever once mention that this was the only site with problems? The fact is this IS the best site and that's why in closing i thanked Ron and said I adore this site. My point Balladeer is not the fact that the problems exist i repeat My point is not the fact that the problems exist..but that once they're pointed out they're often met with hostility. And again, it's not the number of names that bother me it's how they are used "...but is it imperfect to a point that it's imperfectness needs to be discussed as a problem that needs to be solved or else?" classic balladeer..did i ever say or else? Should i use names and give examples to alienate certain mods and users. Isn't that aggressive or hostile? Isn't that what i'm arguing about in the first place. Balladeer I respect you as a poet but I've seen you're version of arguing your points and for you to come out and call mine ramblings is completely ludicrous and a semi-personal attack but then it's not the first time from you And k again i think the POINT was missed. I'm not trying to achieve perfection I'm trying to achieve a place where people can comment or point out imperfections without getting slagged, a place where opinions can be expressed without fear or having to hide behind names. and where people and mods alike can be as honest in the forums as they are to me in private discussions [This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-25-2003 09:41 PM).] |
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Nightshade
since 2001-08-31
Posts 13962just out of reach |
Did I miss something?!!  |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Miah thanks and yes all forums have problems no doubt its the human element grins Chris its seems a few missed something the point but talk to balladeer he'll tell you it's because i can't argue |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Well, Raph. I assumed your point was your topic line: Pip is not perfect. I think we all agree on that. I simply asked if you were here to rant, or to propose a solution. So I ask you Raphael, how would YOU, personally address these problems? All kidding aside. What do YOU suggest? |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
sigh i'd hoped the thread covered that. I would hope criticisms if not hostile would not be met with hostility. That these problems we all know exist can be discussed and hopefully solved if possible. That people not be afraid to voice their opinions That people who do not voice them behind the scenes or worse behind names. And at the end of this most of all I wish people would understand I L3VE PIP and would like to see it grow and the poetry become a key factor in it as well |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! Never let it be said that I would claim you can't argue!! You're very good at it My problem is that I take many things literally... Pip is full of problems all forums are FULL of problems? Does that not sound like a bit of overkill? The common excuse is that they create them so that they can make more honest or controversial stances behind them. excuse...not reason? Anyone who says that must be making an excuse instead of giving what they consider a valid reason? I thought PIP was an open exchange of ideas which, by inference, means that you believe it's not? one of the other problems with pip is the cliques. Since you acknowledge that all sites have that same characteristic, why is it a problem with PIP, as opposed to a normal condition shared by all sites? It's sad what goes on behind the scenes at PIP I congratulate you on your complete knowledge about the sad goings on "behind the scenes". You make it sound like a Mafia meeting or a convention of Hitler's generals. That's what your words say. Is that the thought you intend to convey? So take a good look at things and yourselves before you meet complainers with the same old song and dance here I suppose you just felt like resorting to good old insulting.... So, yes, with all due respect I consider statements like this to be a ramble, which is not necessarily insulting. It serves a purpose, I suppose, by letting those who didn't realize how sad our behind-the-scenes dealings really are so they can be equally as offended and it also alerts some to the fact that we are filled with problems, which they may not have been aware of. It also serves a purpose by allowing you to get some gripes off your chest, which makes it a valid effort. That's what the Alley is for..... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Raph? Was I hostile? Honestly, if I were, I'd really like that pointed out to me as well. You remember that movie, "Coal Miner's Daughter"? There is a scene in the movie, where a disc jockey says to Loretta and "Dew"-- "That dumb hillbilly thing ya'll do--that ain't no act." and Dew replies: "If you knew Loretta, you'd know that ain't no act." sigh. It ain't no act, Raph. I'm genuinely befuddled--not hostile. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
I love the part in that movie where she thought "Horny" was bologna. A-hahahah!. Love that movie. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Miah? I'll be your friend. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Balladeer it isn't overkill there is a list of problems and it's nothing that any large forum has so why is it a taboo to discuss them? excuse/reason we arguing semantics now? The point is then, a common purpose for these name changes is to hide behind them instead of being honest and up front with their opinions. balladeer no I dont believe it is as an open exchange as it could be. how open can it be if people are often afraid to speak out or have to hide behind pseudonyms to do so? The clique is a major problem and one that shouldn't affect a poetry board. Here's why its one thing to have cliques in a discussion argument forum. But with poetry where the writing should be key its a sad thing. Writers and art should suffer these stupidities rather then growing and getting better? As for the behind the scenes my dear balladeer i never said I've seen it all. But i have seen alot of infighting and heard tales or lived through them. My words convey them and nothing else. You're interpretations are your own. Balladeer what's insulting about that unless you're a part of the hostile crowd? Did I say all mods, all users, all pseudonyms? Nope. The comment deer is in reference to those who DO attack and use the same old tired lines against a complaint. And as for the ramble good for you deer youre intitled to your opinion and thats fine by me. It's funny how often if the opinion isn't in tune with yours it's a ramble though. hmm interesting The problem is deer not that i'm not well spoken though you're entitled to think so if you wish. But that i'm trying to be diplomatic. Thats why i didnt use names or specific examples. Karen? Did i say you were hostile? The hostility i speak of is again to those who answer alley thread in a certain way. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
serenity blaze, It's people like you that makes it worth getting up in the morning Everyone should have a friend like you. Personally, I think it's sweet how everyone loves this place so much they defend it so whole heartly. There are not many places out there like this. Good friends, good poetry and love. It's good to disagree sometimes, it puts the spice in life. You should have seen me and my sister go at it as kids. But... were still family no matter what. And.. she forgives me for scratching her eye and making her were a patch for 2 months. |
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S Arthur Grey Senior Member
since 2001-03-19
Posts 719woven by a poet's loom |
Aenimal, Not to belabor a point, but "will the real name stand up"? It appears to me that some members have never used anything but a screen name. Who are they? Must you know? s.a.g. |
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S Arthur Grey Senior Member
since 2001-03-19
Posts 719woven by a poet's loom |
Serenity, Never mind. You meant "Volvo"? s.a.g. [This message has been edited by S Arthur Grey (08-26-2003 01:37 AM).] |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
No no sir arthur not their real names you misunderstood. We all use screen names but often we know the person behind the write. I'm Raphael my screen name is aenimal..if i write something you know who i am..now if i write under a new screen name or a dozen and you don't know who i am that's what you should be wary or have a problem with |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
HUH? I used the word "volga" my rendition of the word "volvo"--an automobile. The befuddlement deepens. I didn't mention anatomy. ???? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: People can be just as honest in the forums as in private, Raph. What's more, I rather strongly suspect they are just as honest in the forums as they are in your private discussions. Or perhaps, more accurately, just as "not entirely honest" in both venues? It's human nature. By and large, people want others to agree with them. What you call honesty, in most cases, stems in large from common ground. How many men tell you they beat their wives? How many women complain to you that their children are burdens? You probably don't hear very much of that, because everything I've seen you post suggests you would be less than receptive. If people are discussing things with you in private that they would not be willing to do in public, it's because they feel one audience will agree with them (mostly) and the other will not (again, mostly). I can practically guarantee, 99 people out of a hundred will NOT tell you something they know you'll strongly disagree with. And the remaining one percent is probably just trying to pick a fight. That raises, I think, three related issues. Part of that has to be our fault. Or, rather, my fault. Our rules preclude personal attacks, but any really good writer (of which we obviously have a few) can usually skirt that rule at least temporarily (later, they'll likely discover such things are accumulative and will come back to haunt them). Rules don't really cut it. They never have in any community, and I doubt they ever will. Rules can't make people get along with each other. Rules can't enforce tolerance. We've tried to build a small little world where things like respect and tolerance are engendered by attitude, not by rules. Obviously, we haven't been a hundred percent successful. That's my fault. But the blame, I think, has to be shared, too. We can give people a place as free from personal attacks as is possible to develop, but we can't ever give anyone the courage they need to face inevitable disagreements. Opinions are cheap because, again, they are usually shared amongst those who already agree. Convictions, on the other hand, cost us, often dearly. Two or three or five people of like mind can avoid contention. But if you want to make a change within a group much larger than that, you have to be willing to face disagreement. Because disagreement, after all, is what often happens when you let the other guy speak as forcibly as you just did. The third issue, in my opinion, is the most important. Pointing out imperfections, here or anywhere, is utterly futile unless you are also willing to offer solutions. I tend to complain frequently about Michigan winters, and though I try to do it with a little humor, I nonetheless know that's all it really is. Complaining. Whining. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a little complaining, of course, but taken too far, it stops being complaining and simply becomes a bad attitude. And those tend to be contagious. At some point, if I don't watch my step, my family is going to tell me to just shut up about the snow and get my butt back to California. Pointing out problems is fine. Solutions are a hell of a lot better, though. So, are there any solutions? Or are the imperfections you mention, Raph, like my Michigan winters, just something we have to accept or avoid? |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Ron I agree with you but isnt pointing the problem out a way to get to the solutions..thats why its a discussion forum. But how can we find the solutions alone and how can we find them if they're being attacked? And as for people being as honest behind the psuedonyms or in private it's not the case for some. I say some again because this is not and never was a blanket attack those what I speak of know who they are Ron. I'm not going to name names but don't think that some of those mods and users who smile and agree with you haven't expressed different views to me. And again not all comments are nice either..there are hostile complaints that desreve an equally hostile response [This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-26-2003 12:02 AM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
The first step, it seems to me, is to agree what is and isn't a problem. I do not agree, for example, that aliases are commonly assumed so "they can make more honest or controversial stances." Indeed, I would expect that to be the exception rather than the rule. But even if it were true, would it really matter? First, if that's the crutch someone needs to be honest, it would be prudent of us to provide it. And, second, if our discussions turn more on WHO says something instead of WHAT someone says, we've got much bigger problems than any you've listed. Are cliques a problem or, as Mike contends, simply inevitable? In my opinion, a clique is just another name for friendship, and I think both terms are far too broad to label them good or bad. A small group of like-minded friends is usually considered a good thing. If that group becomes preclusive and divisive, it's a bad thing. What do we do if it becomes a bad thing? Refuse to participate. Alone, I know that will accomplish very little, but alone, nothing we do will accomplish much. One person refusing to participate is the first step towards everyone refusing to participate. The only problem I agree is a problem (among those you listed) is that an open exchange of ideas and poetry can suffer when the environment becomes more about socializing than about writing. That doesn't mean that socializing isn't an important part of the process, because it is, but I also think it should be subservient to a deeper understanding of people and of ourselves. Yes, it should be about the poetry, but even that is a double-edged sword, because it is inevitably about the poetry and NOT about the poem. We judge others, I think, not just by the few lines they post today, but also by their entire body of work. Should that include their actions, too? If you know they lie, cheat, steal and beat their kids twice a week, should you really feel comfortable telling them how beautiful their butterfly poem is? I honestly don't know the right answer to that. But I can, I think, empathize with just about any answer one might give. I also recognize another problem, one you didn't list, Raph, though one you certainly identified. Those you cite who smile and agree in public, then express different views to you in private, are very likely lying to all of us. Values are part of a person, not part of a relationship. If a person steals for me, someday they will steal from me. If a woman cheats with me, someday she will cheat on me. And when I see a person openly lie, I have to assume nothing they tell me is the truth. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I do not agree, for example, that aliases are commonly assumed so "they can make more honest or controversial stances." Indeed, I would expect that to be the exception rather than the rule. But even if it were true, would it really matter? First, if that's the crutch someone needs to be honest, it would be prudent of us to provide it. And, second, if our discussions turn more on WHO says something instead of WHAT someone says, we've got much bigger problems than any you've listed. Ok so 'common use' was a generalization on my part see im not perfect either gasp lol But i disagree i don't think any honest person should use that crutch or should be given that crutch..especially a mod. The purpose of moderators beyond editing is to help contribute to the growth of pip and if you have to hide behind a name to contribute i think its wrong Those you cite who smile and agree in public, then express different views to you in private, are very likely lying to all of us Ron its those people I'm calling on in this thread not everybody, those are the people who are hostile, who abuse the psuedonyms and whose cliques and attitudes ruin the forums. NOT ALL people. sigh I wish that would get through? As for those cliques: My problem with the cliques is not that they exist i've said from the beginning its bound to happen. But when it comes to the poetry portions of this site like Open..it should be about POETRY not simply friendships. As i said when youre not responding to someone's poetry simply because you can't get along or you're friend cant get along with theres a problem. It's no longer a poetry board. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: I think I understand your position with this comment, Raph. But, as in all areas of life, as was pointed out before, people don't necessarily show "all of their true colors" in a BB area, even as they hide their faults/dislikes in real life, until they reach a certain point. Then, as can happen, their true colors DO come out, and folks are seen for who they truly are. Some, in deference to any raised eyebrows, may say "oops, just had a bad day," or "oops, I didn't mean that," or "wow, did I really say that?" Or some merely say, "This is what I said and this is how I feel and you can like it or lump it." Most times, that is when a line seems suddenly to be drawn in the sand. Outside of a valued friendship, most folks would just say, "well, there you go, have a good life" and leave that person alone with their values and outlook. Inside of that valued friendship, folks would try to continue along with communication to find out why someone they thought they knew had suddenly veered sharply left or right. As for psuedonyms, I know several poets who adopted a new name simply because they wanted to make sure that their poetry stood on its own. Simply because friendships had been made, they didn't want people to read them just because it was morning and at 6:07 a.m. people get up, grab a cup of coffee, and begin reading poetry and or the NY Times. A different paper with a different slant on news; a different name and a different slant on rhyme...would it be read with the same pleasure? The same sharp eye? The same bit of poetic understanding? For a lot of people, adopting a new name for their poetry, [as do several well-published authors, simply to see if they would still be read as avidly as under their successful name] is because they want to make sure that their work can stand the test of time, and the eye of the reader. But in the discussion areas, what I have seen, normally and for the most part, is that the person you know in the persona you've come to know them, will answer for themselves. But you talk of private conversations, and, for the sake of argument I will assume, revelations of things you never knew before. Until all of us can have the facts you have, this imperfection of PiP will remain imperfect to you - because we are not all holding cards from the same deck. Thank you for sharing your concerns. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (08-26-2003 02:50 PM).] |
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gemjop Member Elite
since 2002-11-18
Posts 2587Pencilveinia, USA |
I understand completely what raph means when he uses the word Clique. Sometimes in here, it's like going back to school, people 'ganging up' against people through personal issues, and not so personal, petty issues, using their clique of friends to make people feel unwelcome? it's childish. like bullies. I know I use the word clique in the negative way, as do many people when describing when 'friendships' are used to exclude and upset others. Once again using power in numbers. and oh, it is pathetic, and seen more and more often. I wish I could ever think of the word clique in a positive way, in representing a group of good friends. But no, in some cases, it doesn't stop there. That, to me is something people should get a grip of. A lot of us here are adults, and some of the younger members behave in a more mature manner than the adults. and I know, this behaviour is rife all over the world, lol, always the places you least expect. Once, working for a religious charitable organisation, I have never experienced so much cattiness and bitching. Behind backs, always. Don't ge me wrong, those people were so lovely, but to eachother, they couldn't have been more vile. Trying to involve others in thier own personal indifferences. And it was so sad to see. and no, I'm not saying that just because they were religious, they shouldn't have been making these mistakes, and that it was worse. But because it was a loving environment, with no need for such behaviour. Like pip. Like many people, I suppose i expect more of pip. But in the end, we can say PIP isn't perfect til our eyeballs turn blue, there can never be enough rules to keep everything peaceful, our entire earth is the perfect example don't you think? lol. But when we say US, I think , it may make more sense, then, we may be getting somewhere. It is so true, when we are seen at fault, we go nnoooooo not ME! For a long long time, we hide from our own faults, and why? Even when we SAY we are admitting to something, who goes and takes a look at themselves and does something about it. to quote lennon, people say, that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. he he. thanks john. R.I.P xx I know its asking something that people have asked for millions of times before, but pip is, a one in a million kind of place, with people here, that I'd never have met before. and I'm becoming saddened more often, watching the boards of late. Though there is a whooooole lot of love going on in this place, there is so much unneccessary 'attitude' also. I KNOW, we can't all get along. It's impossible. Raph knows that, and don't we all. I know I don't get along with some people, but I don't go out of my way to make others dislike them. Nor make that person feel uncomfortable. But I think maybe Raph wanted to make people look at some of their behaviour, SOME of the time. to step back and look at how easily we all fall under one of those categories. perhaps the way to DO something about it, should be seen as a personal goal. To look at how we push people away, and never give them chances. To say what we really mean to eachother, without having to bicker, talk behind closed doors. Agreeing with things/people, when we hold a completely different view in reality. Because it is true, when someone complains, we all act as if this whole place is perfect, and the answers given are that to leave, and do they know how hard ron works. Most of us do, and appreciate, and always will. But again, when those arrows are fired, we duck, and let them hit PIP, and not ourselves. I myself am witnessing, not problems with rules, but problems with peoples attitudes towards eachother. We all make mistakes, why not everybody look at them, or even recognise them, and do something about them. it never hurts to ask. does it? and maybe out of a 1000 who reads this, one person may look at themselves and their behaviour and think, huh, yep guilty, and make a change. Me, a pathetic dreamer? YES! and proud. Instant karma's gonna get you. [This message has been edited by gemjop (08-28-2003 12:02 AM).] |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
Er....Um....wrote this before I saw and read page 2 ________________________________________ The point is then, a common purpose for these name changes is to hide behind them instead of being honest and up front with their opinions. balladeer no I dont believe it is as an open exchange as it could be. how open can it be if people are often afraid to speak out or have to hide behind pseudonyms to do so? _________________________________________ I wonder, why does it bother you so much that people use different names to vent their opinions on the internet? Look around you in real life and tell me how many people speak their true mind right in your face (or anyone elses for that matter). Most people wear masks one time or other. How much you want to, you can't change human's nature, wich is for one thing to protect and hide oneself. Who on earth wants PIP to be perfect Perfection is an utopia and besides that it's rather subjective and therefore impossible (thank God). And if someone is so unhappy being here for whatever reason, why can't we just tell that person to look elsewhere to find a more suitable place. Most of those 'unhappy' people seem to forget they're just visiting someone's home. They claim to have rights, but actually they don't have any rights whatsoever. If you're attending a birthday party and one of the guests is saying or yelling 'I don't like this party''I don't like the drinks or the food, or the company''I can't do here what I want to do, because the host won't let me'....then give me one reason why this person shoudn't be asked kindly to move his but to somewhere else and if he/she is still going on yelling, be thrown out of the house? It's often the way in wich their complaints/opinions are phrased that gets out hostile answers. They're full of 'I want', 'I will', 'You should', 'You must' in stead of 'hey listen, I have this problem and want to talk about it and hear different opinions, because I don't know if my mind is set right about this'... That would ring a totally other bell in people's mind I think. Oh well, that's worth my two dimes and I think I'm broke now  Titia Like scattered leaves...my words will flow [This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (08-26-2003 09:06 AM).] |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
OK...so how do we create a place where its all about poetry and honesty? A place where all replies are sincerely about the poem and not about friendships with who wrote the poem..or about racking up numbers or only replying to them cause they did you? That would encompass near total anonymity wouldn't it? As both the Author and the replier... So lets make a forum that way.....( as if I know how) LOL No screen names and personas...just a poem posted by a random number given to the post by the forum software. No email addys posted.. so we cant contact each other and make friends outside the replies.... No pictures up to create familiarity or attractions No ICQ or chat screen No flirting or joking around No cyber affairs, dating and etc.... No posting cyber love( or hate) poetry to a fellow member Reply to the poem as a constructive critique only...no consoling or comforting over the emotions expressed or so on. No replies of affection or familiarity or friendship..... No cute smiley icons or cut and paste unspecific replies... would that make it be all about poetry only and would we know then its about the poem and not the poet or cliques? Could this environment even be created and work? How many would still be here if it was only about poetry and not the social aspects that come along in time? I recall reading a discussion about this where Ron said something about trying to create an anonymous forum at some point. Is this something that is even possible? Would be very interesting to see how it all played out. [This message has been edited by Janet Marie (08-26-2003 10:07 AM).] |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
Aenimal: I pretty much agree with everything you said... except for one thing. *S* You argue quite well. *S* I don't do much besides peek into the discussion forums... but I've seen several poems on open that are thinly disguised potshots. They don't cross any guidelines... but the snickers and giggles don't leave much to the imagination. But there seems to be a rock and a hard spot here... you either name the names or no one wants to hear... subtlety doesn't seem to work. *S* And like so many infractions in sports, when the initial fouls aren't seen, it's those who are pushed too far too long and eventually retaliate that suffer the consequences. I love PIP... even when some of the members aren't too lovable. *G* But yes... I wish. *S* |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
JM: I didn't read your post until after finishing mine... but NO joking or flirting or friendships?? LOL Count me OUT! *G* I just wanna disarm some of those that sling arrows. *S* |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
quote: Thank you Ruth for bringing this point up as well.....because this kind of thing is more damaging to the forums than honest voicing of opinion that might meet with disagreement And its been more than several posts and its been going on for months now...the poems are personal attacks on members and policies here and the replies from the blind followers are just as disrespectful and destructive. Its divided the forums...cost friendships and has nothing to do with poetry. Add that to the "kiss and tell" revenge mentality poetry when a cyber fling goes down in flames and it all makes for bitter reading. I dont know Raph...how much honesty is too much? Can we each handle the responsiblity of total honesty? And some just like to fight...plain and simple..they like confrontation and stirring up trouble. They feed off the drama and ego of the behavior. Its already on this thread--"We" cant even seem to agree to disagree with out someone taking it personal and then the insults start. [This message has been edited by Janet Marie (08-26-2003 10:26 AM).] |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Okay a bit confused. But am I right in saying that Aenimal is upset or concerened because people are posting replies that are like "Oh this place is great, if you don't like it get out" Then in private they are going "well, that person did have some good points" As for cliques is he not saying that people seem to reply to poetry to only their friends and leaving some people out in the dust? That we tend to huddle together rather than expand and try to make new friends? Am I wrong in this assumption? I just want to make sure I am on the same page. |
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timothysangel1973
since 2001-12-03
Posts 1725Never close enough |
Can't we all just love each other and get along....hehe )))hugs((( Tima |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
I don't get this... Dramatics 101? For Pete's sake (I wish you well, Mr. Sampras), this is only, and I mean only a Poetry Website. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ralph, I've always been a believer in the glass houses and nasty little rock theory so I thought I'd doo a little checking on the sincerity of your complaints... One wouldn't think so because one of the other problems with pip is the cliques. " i don't respond to her because she doesn't respond to mine" " I used to read him but then he broke up with so and so" Hmmm and here i was thinking it was about the poetry? Nan I agree with you we have to choose our friends, at the same time it's a poetry site and friend or not certain poets should be recognized by talent not by cliques The clique is a major problem and one that shouldn't affect a poetry board. Here's why its one thing to have cliques in a discussion argument forum. But with poetry where the writing should be key its a sad thing. My problem with the cliques is not that they exist i've said from the beginning its bound to happen. But when it comes to the poetry portions of this site like Open..it should be about POETRY not simply friendships. As i said when youre not responding to someone's poetry simply because you can't get along or you're friend cant get along with theres a problem. It's no longer a poetry board. Balladeer I respect you as a poet Ralph, if you respect me as a poet then I would assume you respect my work...and yet a small search on your replies to my work reveals....zilch. LOL! Believe me, I'm not one to keep track of who responds to my poetry at all....I appreciate them all but I don't keep a scorecard and your not responding doesn't bother me in the slightest. You could easily shoot me down by simply saying you don't like my stuff but then, since you have stated here that you DO respect my poetic ability, that wouldn't fly. So it appears to me you are also engaged in the very thing that you are criticizing....and that's not even a criticism of you. It's a part of human nature. You and I have had disagreements in the past, you respect me as a poet, you do not comment on my work. Life works that way. Personalities affect our actions. To say that there must be no personality-induced responses (or lack of) in a place like this is not being realistic....and to fault the site for having that is not really a fair assessment of the quality of the PIP. The only way to overcome it is to practice what we preach...and that's always a toughie.... |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Yes Janet thats it exactly, i need perfection..yeeeesh sighhhhhh First of all Opeth if that Sampras comment was towards me: A) i'm not leaving B) i'm not being dramatic C) I'll see you in hell (with all due respect) Balladeer is it about quantity then? Have I not replied to some of your work and were you not gone for a month or two at one point? Did i not welcome you back, don't make me go into the archives because i did say it was nice to see you when you did return (though im regretting it now kidding)[This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-26-2003 04:37 PM).] |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
 I must be one of "those" people. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
nevermind i bow out, absolute futility |
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QjQ Member Elite
since 2003-04-18
Posts 3756U.S.A. |
oh my what interesting thoughts have been expressed,, My Knowledge is now better enriched about PiP,, |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
I was Jokeing Aenimal. I guess you misunderstood what I was saying. Anhoo, I still respect your ideas your opinions and your concerens, I hope you find the answers you are looking for. arrrrgh, and don't delete your posts!!! I hate that. [This message has been edited by Miah (08-26-2003 04:47 PM).] |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
Yes Janet thats it exactly, i need perfection..yeeeesh ======================= Raph...where on either one of my posts to this did I say you did? Turn off the attitude and read the replies to this with out being so defensive ... not everyone on here is arguing with you... I was trying to get discussion to the idea of how we could acheive what so many say they want here.. sincere honest replies based on the poem not the poet. Ron has actually discussed an anonymous posting forum. You brought it up... you can bow out. free speech aint always free is it? what ever.... |
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Legion Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54 |
Janet, quote: I would. There’s a real danger that the social interaction can produce a counterproductive effect when it comes to the poetry being produced and an individual’s perception of their poetic abilities. Friends and family (or a family of friends) aren’t always the best people to offer frank and honest opinions, their remarks can at times be tainted by the ubiquitous rose coloured spectacles. An anonymous area where the poets name is hidden until you get to the poem itself wouldn’t, in my view, remove the potential for the above danger but it would at least give the poems for poems sake among us a place to call home. I think what I’m trying to say is that removing the cliques and the cut and paste replies and the banter and all the other stuff from these forums isn’t going to work, after all many people may come here because of those things. However that doesn’t mean that we can’t have a small corner for those like me who don’t. Craig [This message has been edited by Legion (08-26-2003 06:41 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I like the idea too, Craig, um, Legion, um... I tried an alias once, but I have enough trouble keeping myselves straight here on this side of the glass. I registered once as "somebunny"-- but screwed up the email address. Maybe I'll do it again under "somedumbbunny". OH. Just blew my cover, huh? Nevermind. But yes, I would be interested in an anonymous forum too. |
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Nightshade
since 2001-08-31
Posts 13962just out of reach |
 I don't want us all to disagree anymore. Even if this is a good "discussion".. it saddens me. I'm gonna go hug my puppy. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Ok so I won't bow out First off Janet read your email you misinterpreted me it wasn't attitude and I apologize if it came off that way. Miah it wasn't you that set me off and I thank you for your comments. because I was either too vague, people don't bother reading the whole thread through, or the poorest reading comprehension ever may i present PIP is not perfect REDUX First off I agree with Ron when he said: "Pointing out imperfections, here or anywhere, is utterly futile unless you are also willing to offer solutions" However should a poster fail to do so I think it's the duty of readers and mods to steer the conversation that way. To challenge the reader respectfully and together come up with ideas or solutions. It is my opinion that often this is NOT the case. Too often they are instead met with hostility or outright denial. On the subject of Pseudonyms: I was very clear throughout in stating that it's not pseudonyms I am against, it's people hiding behind pseudonyms for the purpose of taking more controversial stances and opinions. Not all people do this it was never the blanket statement and I even changed my wording to reflect that and the point was still missed. Another point missed is that I don't have a problem with the existence of cliques. They will always exist in a forum this large there's nothing one can do about it. The problem I have with the cliques is that they spread into the poetry forum. Worse still there are cliques within the mod community. I find this a scary thought that a group of mods may possibly attack or ignore certain users. And of course you'll ask me for proof and examples but i've stated already i won't use names or examples but that I have seen it and had it admitted to by me from a few mods I have chatted with. I find that scary, if mods are the police of the site who polices the police and how can you? Lastly in defense of my comment regarding PIP not being the open exchange of ideas it could be I'll say again. If someone feels the need to hide behind a pseudonym to challenge or critique Ron or the forum it could be fear. Fear of what you ask? Fear of being ostracized, fear of said hostility. I'll give examples (cause i know deer luvs em) using this particular thread. I have recieved a few emails of support but two in particular said that while they agree with me they do not want to get caught up in the conversation because they fear being labled or attacked. My goal is not perfection nor is it to undermine the site which I adore and need more than you can possibly know. But it's because i adore it that i think it's neccessary that things come to the surface and are discussed rather than denied or ignored. Will it iradicate the problems within PIP? Probably not, but my point is on raising awareness to problems that spread into the poetry forums where it should be about the words rather than the people. |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
Raph...I got your email and I wrote you back, but it keeps coming back to me saying failed delivery status... can I send it to another addy? Email me if so...I will try resending again later...maybe its hotmail or AOL messing up. Sorry about the confusion. You're going to hear my voice in the morning calling your name ... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Damn! Here I was finished with this thread and then you have to go and say such derragotory and incredible things I have to respond again... Worse still there are cliques within the mod community. I find this a scary thought that a group of mods may possibly attack or ignore certain users. And of course you'll ask me for proof and examples but i've stated already i won't use names or examples but that I have seen it and had it admitted to by me from a few mods I have chatted with. I find that scary, if mods are the police of the site who polices the police and how can you? What an incredible amout of bull that is. I feel embarrased for you to even use such tactics. Cliques within the mod group to "possibly attack" memebers. That is pure nonsense. Your references? These unnamed sources and secret conversations. You make incredible charges and then hide behind a "I'm not naming anybody or giving proof of such activity." Why? Because we might beat them up? A group of mods might form a vigilante squad with baseball bats or something? Good grief...I know what goes on in the mod forums and also what goes on in conversations between mods outside the forums. I personally have NEVER seen a more caring group of individuals who have shown so much consideration for the rights of others. They even drive ME crazy! It reaches the point sometimes where I am yelling "Stop being so nice to this jerk!" where someone has been given a multitude of chances and still shows utter disregard for the rules of the site....and yet the mods are still there trying to placate the individual, reason with him, do whatever it takes to keep him as a member. Everyone, even those few who have eventually been suspended, gets every chance in the world and no one holds grudges against them and no one "attacks" them. Show me one example otherwise...just one, where a member has been attacked in the poetry forums, instead of these third-party "someone told me" accusations. Mods don't epect thanks for the many hours they put in...but they sure as hell don't deserve someone accusing any of them of gestapo tactics, either. it's people hiding behind pseudonyms for the purpose of taking more controversial stances and opinions. How about one example of that happening....or is that another "my lips are sealed" categories? I've never seen a member take a pseudonym for that purpose... If someone feels the need to hide behind a pseudonym to challenge or critique Ron or the forum it could be fear. Fear of what you ask? Fear of being ostracized, fear of said hostility. I see nothing but a conditional sentence here..IF someone feels....it COULD be fear. What's that all about? Is it happening or not? Do they feel fear or not? I think you know the answer as well as I do.....no. Hostility? Ostracizing? Melodrama is running rampant here, I fear. I'll give examples (cause i know deer luvs em) using this particular thread. I have recieved a few emails of support but two in particular said that while they agree with me they do not want to get caught up in the conversation because they fear being labled or attacked You call saying you received e-mails giving an example? Anybody can say anything.... my point is on raising awareness to problems that spread into the poetry forums where it should be about the words rather than the people. You mean you think it is productive to point out the problems that, by the responses to this thread seem to indicate, that you and a few select others are the only ones aware of? That is your idea of showing how much you feel for the place? To let as many people know as possible that evil in the mod forum and undercurrents of hostility and attack plans lie just beneath the surface of what appears to the majority to be a fairly happy and well-managed poetry forum? There are no conspiracies, Ralph. The only "weapon" used here is that people respond to poetry or they don't...a weapon that you yourself use. Even with this thread, I think no differently of you that I did last week - yes, I know that doesn't matter to you. The point is that people CAN say anything here. Pepole have the right to express any feelings they have without fear of hearing hoofbeats at midnight or bear the nefarious consequences of the punishments you hint at. Believe me, if I didn't think you were worth it, I wouldn't have wasted my time responding to you. As Ron intimidated, if you don't want problems to be present, don't be part of them....and, when enough people feel that way, there won't be any. Write on..... |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
Well, I can’t speak to all the various topics that have been brought up, because I find some of them far too vague. I’ve been following this thread … and to be honest … I am completely baffled as to some of the various thinly veiled innuendos. I could make guesses as to where the problems originate, but they would only be guesses. What I find sadly lacking over the last few months here at PiP is tolerance and respect … be it between individuals throughout the membership, or comments toward the moderators on the whole. I suppose as a community grows larger, this is inevitable, and it is not surprising. No … PiP is not perfect. I don’t know any community that is. We have realistic rules, ask that people follow them, tire ourselves out endlessly trying to keep a family atmosphere that the full membership will appreciate … and yes … there are many counteractive forces that dig on various plains to undermine the foundation. Why? I honestly don’t know. Can we do anything about it? I don’t know that either. I can simply hope that if what people want out of Passions is a place to call home, then the simple philosophy of “do unto others” can be their guiding motto. “You reap only what you sow” … and if some individuals want to stir the pot in the background “whomever that may be” then so be it. Those types become known eventually, become recognized for what they are and what they do, and sooner or later trip themselves up and embarrass themselves beyond repair. The moderators I know … I trust deeply, and I know every moderator in this Passions group to varying degrees. If there’s a problem, then straight up ... someone contact me directly, because I’d like to be made aware of it. To be honest, I’m a little tired of some of the background chatter I catch wind of, that can’t or won’t be substantiated by fact. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Of course balladeer there can't possibly be any of this going on the mod forums!! And of course you know everything that goes on with every single member of the mod community. And can the unnamed sources and proof bit, if you knew me, which you don't and thank god for that, you'd know i wouldn't have mentioned any of this if i didn't have some shred of proof or personal experience behind it. There are plenty of people who CAN vouch for my character and while you sit there and deride all my arguments let me tell you I find your manner of argument and your personality appalling, that you should throw stones. Ha! Deer you don't see alot of things it seems and if in your years on the site and as a mod you haven't seen ANY examples of the things I've mentioned i question anything you have to add on the subject The conditional sentence was placed there because of people like you. I i hadn't made it conditional you say that i meant it ALWAYS happens and its ALWAYs the case. As for the emails again it's totally appaling, how am i supposed to sedn you the email and keep the writers anonymity? You'd say i wrote it myself. And the biggest example of how little you know or think of me is to call me Ralph when my name is Raphael. I don't care if you think i'm worth the response. At least when Ron speaks he does so in a civilized and logical fashion, i can't help but go for the jugular with you. You attack and you are pompous and arrogant when you disagree. Read my comments to Ron's replies and see how civil i am. Question my integrity, question my proof, you know nothing about me. I'd tell you what I really think of you but you've already embarrassed me by making me get emotional rather than arguing rationally. i don't want to get kicked off a site i love and want to see grow and develop but i can honestly say you disgust me with your actions and what they bring out of me also And i'll shut up and bow out of this for real this time *okay quit clapping [This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-26-2003 11:45 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, I will certainly apologize for getting the name wrong. That darned Serenity influenced me by calling you that several times without being corrected.... As far as what you think about me...it's not important. What is important is what is best for PIP....and we have different views on that....so we leave it at that. I shall now officially forsake all hopes of being named in your will....peace. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Deer if you read Serenity's post you'll notice she says Raph (ael) not Ralph guess you missed that which is astonishing considering your keen eye for details..grins Okay balladeer peace or something to that effect? Two smart@sses raging in the wind |
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QjQ Member Elite
since 2003-04-18
Posts 3756U.S.A. |
I can only say that the posts on this thread have proven to me that what I have observed in other areas of this web site are now fact in my mind and no longer speculations. I strongly suggest that should anyone not understand what i have posted to go back to the beginning of this thread and read each and every post befor commenting.  [This message has been edited by QjQ (08-27-2003 01:17 AM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! ...and here I thought it was Serenity's world-famous inability to spell. Go figure... |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I've tried very hard to stay out of this thread. One, because I don't like confrontation. Two, because I don't like veiled statements alluding to secrets known only to certain people. If you have something against me, please just say it. I would rather you, or your unnamed source would speak honestly. Or shut up! Stop spreading this virulent crap around and start writing! If feel an overwhelming need to talk about someone behind their back then don't tell us that you're doing it. Get real here! Get honest! I dare you! (I luv ya Raph!! And I understand why you're doing this. I'm not mad at you but at the situation. Email me if you want. But please don't tell anyone because they might thing we're in a clique together.) |
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QjQ Member Elite
since 2003-04-18
Posts 3756U.S.A. |
Is it fact that a clique is a clique until it becomes organized and then is it a conspiracy  [This message has been edited by QjQ (08-27-2003 01:34 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Lucky for you guys I love to be teased as much as I love to do the actual teasing. (Rumor has it I'm versatile that way.) Now, I do have ONE costume left over. Either of you allergic to Latex?  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
See what I mean about rules not working? Good writers have very little trouble skirting rules, usually circumventing them easily with innuendo, sarcasm, and very thinly veiled contempt. Sometimes I think we could do with a few less good writers and a few more good people. Respect and tolerance are absolutely meaningless drivel when you're just agreeing with your best bud. They only really count for something when you're disagreeing with somebody you don't particularly like. They only really count for something when they cost you something. And apparently they don't really count for much around here. I'm honestly ashamed. Four years of doing this, and tonight I feel as if we've accomplished nothing. Nothing. Do we really need proof of our imperfections? Look no farther than this thread. Do we really need proof of furtive unrest? One voice raised is proof enough, even were that one voice the only real unrest. I don't need proof, I don't need names, and I would never ask anyone to betray a confidence. By and large, I doubt there would be a single name on any list that would surprise me. By and large, I could probably list the more prominent names without any hints. People can't long hide behind aliases, people can't long hide behind cryptic affronts masquerading as poetry, and by and large, people can't even long hide behind private email because they forget they aren't the only ones with too little honor. I am not unaware of our imperfections. Nor am I usually daunted by them. I choose instead, by and large, to ignore them. Someone brings me a rumor, I tell them it's a rumor and I really don't want to hear it. Someone writes me with a complaint about policy, I tell them to post it in the forums so everyone can be involved in discussing it, because frankly, if they don't have the guts to do that then I figure the issue wasn't really very important to them any way. I can't eliminate the imperfections. But I don't have to be a party to them, either. Four years ago last month, these forums were private. The only way to find your way into this place was by invitation. It was just about this time four years ago, around late August, that we decided to open the doors a crack by posting a link on the main site. Diversity, we decided, was worth the inevitable costs of inviting strangers into our little haven. To be honest, those costs have been higher than I ever imagined. Hardly a month passes that I don't consider closing these doors and opening a new forum, a closed and private forum with only a large handful of invitations issued. Even that wouldn't eliminate the imperfections. But it sure would lessen them by a wide margin. I haven't done that, I probably never will do that, and the reason is pretty much the same reason I choose to ignore those who insist on seeding unrest and contention. Nine hundred and ninety-nine of those troublemakers will inevitably and eventually fall by the way side. Out of a thousand, though, one will see the example being set by others here and will suffer an epiphany that will change their life. One of out a thousand will stop planting seeds of unrest and instead become an example that will, just maybe, change the life of one more individual in the next batch of a thousand. In four years, I've only see that happen a few times. But those few times have been enough to keep these doors open. Those few times more than justify the costs. Those few times are the reason I will continue, by and large, to ignore the other 999 for as long as I can. Because I can never know ahead of time which one of the thousand will pay the toll for all the rest. Raph? I strongly urge to ignore them, too. By continuing to listen to their idle chatter, you validate everything they say. Until they have the courage to stand up and be counted, as you have chosen to do here today, their complaints will remain merely complaints, merely whining. The best way to solve some problems is to refuse to be a part of the problem. There is no way, short of force, to abruptly change the direction of a community. Change, if it's to occur, comes one person at a time. If everyone here stopped worrying so much about what others are doing wrong and concentrated instead on doing only what they feel is right, the imperfections here would evaporate with the morning dew. Anyone heard the Serenity Prayer lately? (Quiet, Karen, save that wit for something less easy.) "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." You cannot ever, in a million years, change another person. Period. The best you can do, if you're really really lucky and really really work hard at it, is to change yourself. Then, you just got to sit back and hope others will like what they see enough to follow. |
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QjQ Member Elite
since 2003-04-18
Posts 3756U.S.A. |
My thoughts have been enriched and my anxieties have been alleviated. Thank You "Ron" [This message has been edited by QjQ (08-27-2003 02:14 AM).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Thanks for the email Raph!  Now. Let's get this cleared up and move one ok? |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
I have a feeling this was a private battle. Sorry for comenting on it. ooops. |
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Wind
since 2002-10-12
Posts 2981 |
Ahh..the title of this got me grinning. my second standby (after 'trust nobody') is perfection is overated. it would get pretty boring without people ranting and raving. But I don't take sides. I think that they are both good points. Personaly, I admire the people who stood up for their beliefs, but I also understand those who are afraid to. it hurts sometimes, when people misunderstand what you are saying. But I really think everyone gets the point and maybe we could let this thread die? How did I miss this one? trying not to be serious. [This message has been edited by Wind (08-27-2003 01:36 PM).] |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
No prob Sharon Miah not a private battle at all and THANK you for commenting and adding to the discussion Liz consider it it dead |
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BluesSerenade Member Patricius
since 2001-10-23
Posts 10549By the Seaside |
I hear you loud and clear, but everyone is going to do what they always do Raph, while remaining perfect guests. (thank you Ron) I had a hard time following this thread....makes me want to go more blonde so I can justify it!!! Life is too short! Don't worry about it so much~ (wait, that doesn't sound like me) |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
We all have that choice to either be part of the problem or part of the solution. I know it is another cliche' but such a good one. Serenity can you pick me up in that Volga, so we can vrooom, vrooom over to Bluesy's and dye our hair blonder Raphael, its a girl thing.Now back to reading poetry, as we have some wonderful poets here to choose from, and after all isn't that what a poetry site is for? [This message has been edited by Mysteria (08-30-2003 05:41 AM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Notice how I've stayed completely out of this? Of course -- I've stayed completely out of everything since last week but, I digress. 'Cliques' are not only inevitable -- they are necessary! Why? Because there are only so many waking hours in a day. We can only have meaningful interactions with a limited number of people -- and yeah -- like the song says -- we want to go where somebody knows our name -- or -- psuedonem as it were. Only a real narcisist really likes to tell his story over and over and over again... we like familiarity -- community. The maximum number for most people in a clique -- or a better term is oikos -- is about 12 people. Seemed there was a certain Gallilean who even understood this a couple thousand years ago. People will flow into an oikos and out of it again -- that's the way life is. Regarding the 'imperfections' mentioned Raph -- maybe I'm naive (and I work hard at it) but the main complaint that surfaces over time again and again is about censorship. That's what it always boils down to. We've all been edited and edit ourselves as a consequence. The rules seem pretty simple. The etiquette is a little difficult for a new poster -- but -- it comes with time. Maybe a few really good writers should revamp the welcome note to explain it better. I do hear 'Open' referred to sometimes as junior high -- but -- it's just the human socialization process at work. Re-read Plato's Republic http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html if you haven't lately just to remind yourself how little the human animal has changed in a few thousand years. There's no reason to believe that a relatively new technology is going to change human nature. We sound just like the dialoges Glaucon. And -- if all this was prompted because of rumor and inuendo about you (lord knows I probably have my share) just remember quote: |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
'Men occassionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry on as if nothing had happened.' ~Winston Churchill~ something I try to avoid and abhor seeing Reb read my share of the classics and while you're right about the human condition not having changed much does that mean I should stop hoping? Grin It wasn't due to an innuendo or rumour although i know they exist. In fact it wasn't due to anything that effected me personally. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
If a person presents themselves in a certain way in front of myself and a crowd, and then confides in me his or her's true feelings in private, it is then my responsibility not to ever mention to the crowd that a certain person feels differently than they portray while in the crowd, unless I just come right out and say who it is, otherwise, I should keep my mouth shut. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Based on your earlier comment and the utter stupidity of this one I say take your own advice. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Based on your earlier comment and the utter stupidity of this one I say take your own advice." ~ Utter stupidity? I'd say, dead on. And the above quote of yours does not make sense. It is not I that made a dramatical thread about people saying one thing in private behind PIP lines while saying something else in front of the PIP crowd. You made much ado about nothing (cliche intended), yet compromised trust. You could learn from this, if you wish. And that is my only intention here. Edited: There is also a couple of ironies developing...One, you stated something about people being honest and not hiding behind any identity...to say what is on one's mind without worrying about what others may think...and that is what you are getting here and now. Second, I guess after the dust settles, your own "clique" will come to your aide to defend you and to comfort you against my, what would be called, "attacks." [This message has been edited by Opeth (08-31-2003 04:12 PM).] |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
The quote does make sense. You're intention, based on the wording of both your replies is to provoke. The Sampras comment and the 'i should keep my mouth shut' comment are fine examples of how rather than discuss and add anything positive to the argument many would rather attack or make remarks. Thanks for proving my initial point. As for the compromise of any trust if examples and names and events weren't included there was no breach. None of the people I may have alluded to have had problems with what I said. They were never under attack but how the board sometimes works was. The only dramatics came out of frustration, the frustration of people misintepreting the thread and from people like yourself who prove the futility of attempting a logical discussion Edited: Yes exactly Opeth my posse is gonna meet your posse after school..lmao I don't want or need anybody to come to my defense and would ask that no one get involved in this deteriorated that should have ended [This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-31-2003 04:30 PM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Your comment does not make sense because how can I take my own advice, which was not to say to the PIP crowd that other PIP members are saying one thing while on PIP, but saying other things to me in private? I have never done that. And as far as the keep one's mouth shut or the Sampras comment (the Sampras comment had nothing to do with you, that was a 'my own connection moment' - I have those from time to time) ~ if you felt offended by that mouth comment, well then maybe you needed to be offended. And as for those in your clique who have told you privately it was okay for what you did, what else did you expect? (Don't answer, rhetorical question only). I guess I will read if you reply, but I am through here. I thought maybe, just maybe, you might "get it." And lastly, |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Your comment does not make sense because how can I take my own advice, which was not to say to the PIP crowd that other PIP members are saying one thing while on PIP, but saying other things to me in private? Uhm the advie was about you shutting up. As for thinking the thread was solely about what you state it is shows you miss the point entirely..I'm done with the thread not for fear of your incredible arguing ability but because its gone on long enough. speak to me outside of the forum if you feel the urgent need to speak of it more [This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-31-2003 04:34 PM).] |
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timothysangel1973
since 2001-12-03
Posts 1725Never close enough |
Aenimal? It's over huh? Well, shoot, I always show up just as the doors are getting ready to be locked for the night...hehehe I was reading for a while, but then shoot, I just got confused and then I had to go back and read your first post to see what we were talking about and what I was going to post a long time ago but never got around to doing so was simple.... "Say it ain't so!" xxoo, Tima P.S. Does this mean that I get the last word in this thread? I never get the last word anywhere.....Yay! |
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Wind
since 2002-10-12
Posts 2981 |
I may have the last word bout these cliche things..when do I get one?  die thread! Namaste insanity is not a crime [This message has been edited by Wind (09-02-2003 07:35 PM).] |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Interesting....I've been posting now for approx 5 years...and PIP is the first site that I've not seen any trouble...for the most part, no even more then that, people here are kind, respectful, mature, very creative good poets, who seem to take their work seriously....I've just advised two friends who were posting in another page that was full of trouble with a capitol T! People posting mean comments and poems using your name...oh, all kinds of nonesense. Here it's different... Either I'm naive and very asleep, or, you folks don't know what you have...cherish it, please, believe me...PIP is wholesome and good. Thanks to all...a bunch |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Thank you, Lee! I have to agree 99% of the time, everything is fine around here, even when the site seems a bit 'conservative' to me, I have generally found respectful and mature readers/writers here at Pips. *sigh* I have so few hours to visit here, so this may be my only comment about this topic. Namaste, which means...I honor the individual in you, and hope you do the same for me. I will not do battle on this field of blue. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
well, LR is right. I know, because I spent my whole life fighting the cliques. I use to belong to the AOL poetry forum. My poetry was very popular. I never Insulted any one, but when I critiqued some work on a poet who I liked alot. Every one attacked me. Now that poet went and told them No... Juju is just helping me every one attacked him. After that I kinda stopped going there intill I returned noticing very racial, hate, slangs and stuff. so I started to email some fellow poets to get all the bad stuff off by mass posting old work. A week later it was gone. Some of the stuff was very troubling. You can say freedom of speech all you want but those where meant to harm and to hurt. Why did they stay up? Because the cliques posted to them saying what bad poeple they were. Keeping that meessage of hate and anger. Cliques aren't bad here. I like it here. Yes there is cliques. How do I know? I am not in one. I don't even respond just cause I like the person, but the poem. I don't try to place judgement on poeple here. I know I said today to someone that If I didn't like the poem or something he said tead me off I wouldn't of responded. That is not a Clique thats just if you have nothing nice to say keap it to your self. and heh I know my arguments well be attacked why? cause there are cliques and in fact did I say something. only that this place has cliques, but they could be worse I am not in a clique Am I mad at any one? no. Truthfully it was interesting to see every one respond. Clique can be good too... I think that was it. oh well I think it would be nice if poeple here were more open minded. I am an abstract Random so I can't understand why poeple aren't open. oh well lots of love Juju |
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Jeffrey Carter
since 2000-04-08
Posts 2367State of constant confusion! |
This place may not be perfect, but it's close enough for me |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
for the love of god who keeps bring this thread up!! lol |
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Jeffrey Carter
since 2000-04-08
Posts 2367State of constant confusion! |
Sorry Aenimal, I've been away a while and just had to say that LOL |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Raph, generally the guy or gal just above your comments. LOL...  |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
LOL, good one! |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
What? |
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Enchantress Member Empyrean
since 2001-08-14
Posts 35113Canada eh. |
It's not?? LOL |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Thanks for the clarification Karilea |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
Doopdeedoodeedoo. |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
boop boop |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
And all this time I thought my poetry was the only perfect thing on this site?...You do agree with me, don't ya all? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Sure, Toe, why not? |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Are you insinuating something Sunny?..LOL |
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Jeffrey Carter
since 2000-04-08
Posts 2367State of constant confusion! |
hehe |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
I only have one thing to say...LeeJ?...I'm feeling very hurt by your comment above, ("people here are kind, respectful, mature, very creative poets that take their work seriously.").....Why did you leave me out?...Hell, I ain't none of the above?...And you call what Balladeer does to me kind and respectful?...And this proves you don't read my fine poetry?..(take their work seriously?).....Well, I'm hurt now..and I hope you're happy now....LOL |
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wings of the moon Member
since 2003-03-27
Posts 323Pink bubblegum land |
I mostly post on another board and come here from time to time if i feel happy with a particular piece. i don't post too much because when i post my name in google it comes up with all my posts here, which is a bit of a problem... oh i notice a few names more than most, but generally i've never thought of this place asmuch of a community as the other, its so wide! so i have trouble understanding these kind of problems, surely there is enough space for you all to be happy? (my other board only has one message board, which is why it feels more communitarian). chill... |
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