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Just a wee bit 'o steam
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Just a wee bit 'o steam |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration 
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I know this issue's been broached before, (I believe by Cindy and it's been quite some time,) but I want to know why people seem to automatically assume that when ( I ) write something, it's my reality? Not that I don't write from the heart, from experience... of today or yesterday. But I also write "what if's," "when's," and "maybe's." Should, we "assume," that when someone writes a poem that it is a representation of their life at its current state, or even their life period? And, to meld two subjects into one- Why does it seem that there are MANY, people who don't even "read" the poems posted before making a reply? For a point of reference, (sorry Claire-) Meadowmuse's "In The Folds." Note the poem, then note the replies. To me, it appears as if those people replying didn't really reach for the meaning of the poem. They perhaps noted a pretty format and large letters and assumed that it was a happy poem. Such is not the case I think. To me, that's worse than not replying at all. (You) are giving out false praise which means nothing. It's almost demeaning in my eyes to do such. Ok, I've griped enough for one day... I haven't had the chance to let it out for a while. Peace out!  |
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Meadowmuse Member Elite
since 1999-12-27
Posts 3263 |
Chris, hi and thank you for the note this morning. You know, I would like to think that folks actually do read each poem that they reply to. I know that I do. Perhaps that is why I don't get as many replies posted as I would like. At any rate, I sometimes get the feeling that my work isn't being understood, but it's possible that my meaning is "disguised" somewhat by the pretty words. You know, that's just my "style," if you will, for the most part, anyway. Last night (well, this morning) when I read your reply to "In the Folds" I couldn't help but think to myself, "Finally...someone understands." although I believe both Sven and Rosemary had touched on the issue of unspoken sadness in their replies. Honestly, I think that it has a lot to do with my style of writing. Maybe it's simply easy to misinterpret, especially if one is reading quickly and not "digging" too deeply under the pretty surface. Oh, and a question...do my postings show up in large font on your machine?? When I code the html, I code it as font size="4"...and on my machine it comes out rather small and delicate, which is what I want. If it's coming across as large, please let me know so I can figger out how to modify it so the html gives the desired effect. Thanks Chris, for everything. Oh, and Good Morning. ~ Claire |
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Mike Member Elite
since 1999-06-19
Posts 2462 |
I have very carefully avoided making responses to certain comments in Passions. I have also learned it is best to avoid responding when you realize the response might elicit negative reaction. But this one just grates me the wrong way. I am going to take a hiatus for awhile so I don't say anything further. |
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Mike Member Elite
since 1999-06-19
Posts 2462 |
And I am doing what I said I would not, but Christopher's post REALLY grates me the wrong way. Off to contemplate. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I didn't see any replies to Claire's poem that gave me the impression that the meaning wasn't clear. A pain filled poem can indeed be called 'beautiful' or 'beautifully done', 'exquisite', 'excellent', etc. I always 'feel' a poem that is well done. I don't think that stating that it is 'beautiful', excellent' or even replying with a simple 'WOW' to such a poem is a contradiction or an idication that the message or meaning was lost. I, for one, am grateful for anyone who takes the time to read and reply to anything that I write, especially with so many choices given to the reader. I'm sure Claire feels the same way. Again, I don't see any replies that I would consider superficial or indicate a lack of understanding of what the poem was conveying. Of course, this is just my opinion. This grated me the wrong way too, as it did Mike. Perhaps because I sense that replies are being 'read into', judged as to whether they are 'worthy' responses? I don't get it, I really don't. Denise [This message has been edited by dsnyder (edited 04-26-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Guys: I don't think it is necessary for people to be "grated" the wrong way by Christopher's post. As I see it, he has a legitimate point but I'm not sure how far his indignation is going to get him. Brad and I continuously struggle with the depth of the critiques in CA (in order for CA to do what CA should do some measure of depth in the feedback to the poets submitting their work is essential). I don't think that it is necessary that Open Poetry demand a similar level of attention, although it certainly wouldn't hurt the poet's growth in skill to do something as seemingly insignificant of relating to the poet WHY you thought the poem was poignant or WOW or whatever. That would, I think, give the poet more of an idea of what works for people and what doesn't so that their next poem is better than their last. I read Meadowmuse's (Claire's) poem (excellent poem, btw) and would have to agree with Christopher that some of the replies hinted that those making the replies either didn't soak in the poem's meaning or didn't say why the poem evoked an "exquisite", "poignant" or "wow" from them. Denise and Mike, try not to take this personally because I am intending these as very general statements and I am not pointing fingers or criticizing of any one person. Denise, you are absolutely right that some people are satisfied knowing that someone read his/her poem and that is fine (I, personally, am not satisfied by this and that is why I spend the vast majority of my time in CA). Both of you guys, don't confuse "sincerity" of a reply with "quality" of a reply. I think it is difficult to measure sincerity (I don't question the sincerity of anyone here) but quality is measurable by its benefit to the poet. A simple reply has very simple benefits ... improving confidence, providing people with the satisfaction that their poem is read, etc.. The more detailed the reply, the more benefits there are to the poet. If my sonnet has horrible meter and all of the replies are kept very general then it is not likely that my grasp of meter will get immediate attention. I think Christopher is addressing the "quality" of the replies and I don't think he is questioning their "sincerity". JMHO. Just my long-winded opinion on the matter. Jim |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I'm not confusing 'sincerity' with 'quality', Jim. I don't doubt anybody's sincerity, either. In-depth replies, if desired by a poet, can certainly be had in CA, as you have indicated, and there is certainly a place for that type of response. There are as many reasons for posting poems as there are poets, I'm sure. Some poets, perhaps the majority, just want to share their thoughts and words with others. I see nothing wrong with giving the 'why' a poem touched a person but I don't think that it is necessary either. My replies are from my heart and with time constraints I can't usually give an in-depth but I want to let the writer know that I read it and enjoyed it or that it touched me in some way. To me, that is better than not replying at all. I don't think there is anything more disheartening to a writer than not getting any feedback. I'm not comfortable at all with the fact that my replies to others are being critiqued. Just the thought makes me wary of replying at all. Perhaps it's just me, but I don't like it. Denise [This message has been edited by dsnyder (edited 04-26-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Denise: I'm glad we agree on the quality thing. No reply is, obviously, of no help to the poet. A short, sincere reply is of some help and, generally speaking, a more indepth reply is of greater assistance still. Time is most definitely a factor and I suppose, as frequent repliers, we all must decide what we want to accomplish. I do, by the way, appreciate your replying to all of the poems I can remember posting in Open Forum. As far as your discomfort on having your critiques critiqued, I would suggest that you try to develop a thick skin (I've received hate mail, on occasion, resulting from my critiques in CA). If you believe in what you are doing, who cares what others think, right? Jim P.S. I don't think Christopher was singling anybody out by his comments. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, I know Christopher wasn't singling out anyone in particular with this post. I just think his assertion or assumption that it seems that the poems are not being 'read' is erroneous. I don't get that impression from the replies to this particular poem. As far as my replies (I don't critique very well, I'll leave that to you guys in CA  ) they are just that, my replies to the poet and don't need to be commmented on by anyone else but to whom they were directed, in my opinion. I've never had a thick skin and have never had success in trying to develop one. I don't envy you at all with the hate mail thing. p.s. you should post more often in Open. You are an excellent poet! Due to time constraints I can't say anything more than that! *giggles* Denise |
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Mike Member Elite
since 1999-06-19
Posts 2462 |
I apologize when I indicated I would not be responding further. But on reflection, I feel it best be known why I object to the post and why I feel it is best I take a hiatus. I find the originating post condescending and showing a degree of arrogance towards those who reply in Open. I in no way took it as a personal affront, because I feel fairly comfortable in my ability to comprehend what a poet is attempting to express. Christopher finds the replies in Open at times almost demeaning. I find his post demeaning. [This message has been edited by Mike (edited 04-26-2000).] |
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Craig Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444 |
Christopher I think the reason a lot of people read a poem as a statement or description of the writers feelings or life is pretty simple, so simple I’m amazed you haven’t worked it out yourself. Those people, who you seem to think slightly dizzy for missing the point, have in fact picked up all the points, decided that the things the writer was writing about were so believable and real, so indiscernible from reality that it makes no difference, they actually believe that the poem is a reflection of real life. ‘A reflection of real life’, if I were to attempt to capture the essence of a poem in a couple of paragraphs I can guarantee that that statement would crop up at least once. Now I’ve often taken on the mantle of fool ( with just cause some may add ), and I’ll admit I’m not the brightest pebble on the beach. That said, I’ll take a stab in the dark and lay my money on the fact that anyone who is writing serious poetry is writing it in the hope that someone, anyone, will find it believable and hoping that, at the very least, the reader approaches the poem willing to be convinced. Your second point is less an ailment and more a statement or symptom of what the forums are about. Jim stated that he, and Brad, want more in-depth replies in the CA forum, that makes total sense when you look at what the CA forum is there for. It’s very existence relies on people giving honest, ( perhaps sometimes misguided but always honest ), opinions on the poems they read there. The open is a different kettle of fish entirely, in depth replies in the open can, by the general nature of the forum, only be restricted to the positive aspects of a poem posted. If I’m incorrect in this assumption then why do we have a CA forum? There are also other aspects of the open forum to take into consideration, one of which is that some of the people posting there are involved in social interactively, poetry is just the thing that brings them together. To those people ‘Great poem’ is just another way of cementing a social bond, sort of like dogs sniffing as they meet each other but a little more acceptable. That isn’t to say that a short reply can’t really mean anything though. I read the thread you are using as an example, I couldn’t find any replies that could be taken as people missing the point. What I did find were several examples of what could be described as literary applause, picture the scene you’re at a poetry recital and the reader finishes his final piece do you; A) Start giving an in depth account of the last poem recited; B) Start throwing bottles and tables or C) Give the guy a round of applause? Wow, to me at any rate is a round of applause, the person that’s giving that applause generally liked what he/she heard and took the time to respond. Granted it doesn’t tell you where you were good or where you were weak but if you want to know that go ask the in depth fanatics and bottle throwers over at CA. All these things married to the fact that some people are short of time, short of words or just plain shy makes the replies what they are. Reading deep meanings into the replies, for example that all the people who read that poem and replied didn’t understand it, are simply statements that, although possible, are I think, highly improbable. Thanks for giving me the chance to read and reply Craig [This message has been edited by Craig (edited 04-26-2000).] |
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Craig Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444 |
Mike Before you go making any decisions that could seriously affect my reading pleasure I hope you’ll give Christopher the chance to clarify what could be purely a misunderstanding of meaning or intent. Sometimes short written remarks can be misconstrued or when written in haste lose the infliction and meaning that the writer wanted to get across. Then again sometimes people put their foot in their mouths and after serious contemplation graciously remove it or at least sugar it to make it more palatable. Either way waiting for a response seems like a good idea, look at it as a deferred hiatus (sounds painful). Craig Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool: But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Craig: "Granted it doesn’t tell you where you were good or where you were weak but if you want to know that go ask the in depth fanatics and bottle throwers over at CA." Let it be known that all of the indepth fanatics in CA have the common decency of making certain the bottles are empty before we throw them. LOL @ dogs sniffing, by the way ... if I were you I'd watch out for bottle throwing from directions other than from CA.Later. Jim |
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Craig Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444 |
Jim Just to sugar my unpalatable foot I’d like to unreservedly apologize to all the sniffers at passions, be they canine or otherwise. btw exactly how many bottles of perfume do you ‘guys’ get through in a week over there in CA. Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool: But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Craig, Are you trying to piss off everybody? I'm not worried about my canine affinities, but perfume bottles? Geez, I have a reputation to uphold. I think this whole thread is pretty funny actually. When I read Christopher's first post, I suspected something like this would happen but isn't this what the Alley is all about? He saw a trend that disturbed him and he brought it up for discussion. Is this arrogant or demeaning to other people? I don't think it's anymore demeaning then the occasional calls for more posting or that were nothing more than several cliques or that it was better in the old days (interestingly enough, haven't seen those complaints lately -- perhaps, we're moving away from that but more towards Christopher's complaint). As for the example poem: I agree with Denise in that the replies to this particular poem can be interpreted either way but that would be my complaint (but I'm one of those in depth fanatic 'guys' ).We come here for different reasons, and the only way this can be taken as arrogant, in my opinion, is if Christopher were indeed taking on the mantle of the person who knows more than others rather than simply expressing an opinion or a gripe. Poems are 'misread', poems are hastily read, and poems are left unread in every forum here by somebody -- what's the big deal for a general call to try to read more carefully? Arrogance takes on many forms here and not only from those of us who want a little bit more in a response to a poem (which is certainly no reason to feel arrogant) -- I think it comes with the territory. Thanks for listening, Brad |
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Meadowmuse Member Elite
since 1999-12-27
Posts 3263 |
On behalf of my little simple self, I would just like to say that I gratefully appreciate and welcome any and all comments regarding the poetry I post at Passions. I am not what one would consider a "regular" but I so enjoy the sharing of poetic ideas and such. Nor am I, by any mental stretch, an intellectual and I don't require intellectual responses to make me feel that my poem is worth reading. When I expressed earlier in this thread my delight at Chris' reply to my poem, it was simply because I really do feel as though my work can be, at times, somewhat difficult to understand. Perhaps it is the flowery language I find myself using. Perhaps I am just too vague. Could be that I'm too chicken to post in Critical Analysis because I don't have the strong constitution that I feel it would require. Regardless, I love it when someone merely takes the time to say, "Claire I enjoyed your poem." I try to get into Passions at least once a day to read and respond to as much as I can, and though I don't post as many poems as most, I so enjoy the creative exchanges taking place there. Thanks for reading. ~ Claire Could a greater miracle take place than for us to look through each other's eyes for an instant?......Henry David Thoreau |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
And he poses possibilities which they declaim as definitives. Mike - I find your lack of respect demeaning. Who are you to judge me as arrogant when all I was doing was postulating on a feeling? I used words such as "perhaps," which means possibly. I used "appears,"which means that it "seems" like such. I in no way stated as a fact that this was what was really happening. I made a distinct effort not to condemn anyone specifically. I only presented my To the rest of you, Peace out! |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Okay. . . can I just make a small point here? Have we forgotten that the words of a poet SPEAK IN DIFFERENT WAYS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. . . sure, the poet will write the poem with one intention in mind. . . but to the reader, another intention may come through. . . I know that I too write from life, but I have a good deal of my own poems that I write merely as story. . . and I have one thing in mind when I write them, but there are times, when reading the replies, that I find that someone else has found something else in my poems that I may have never thought of or even considered when I wrote it. This makes me a better poet. . . I don't tell the reader that he or she is wrong for seeing the things that they see in my poems. . . if anything, I take them to heart. . . and apply them to my writing in the future. . . I know that I don't always see the things that the poet has written, I see the words, and I take what I know about the poet into consideration. . .in the case of Claire's poem (sorry to keep referring back to you Claire, but Chris brought it up!) I referred to the quality of her words and the "beauty" of the poem. . . what I meant was that the poem had a sad beauty to it. . . it was indeed touching and I did indeed see the sadness behind it. . . and I did touch on it in my reply. . . The response I gave was merely my own personal feelings about the poem. . . I think that most of the poets here try to reply with a sense of helpfulness and responsibility, they know that their words will either make or break the writer. . .so I try to read each poem that I respond to carefully. . . and I try to make my responses encouraging and let the poet know how and why I liked it. . . So, back to my original point . . . EACH POEM SPEAKS IN DIFFERENT WAYS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. . .just because someone's view of a poem doesn't agree with yours. . . doesn't mean that it's right or wrong, it just means that it's different. . . Okay. . .that's all. . . thanks!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- That which gives light must endure burning --Victor Frankl |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
Hmmm ... good question ... As far as assuming anything about the truth of someone's poetry, I think the major part of it is this: if a poem contains any sort of deep or intense emotion, it is a normal human tendency to sympathize and/or empathize with it -- not many people read poetry to analyze the meter, rhyme scheme, diction, etc. (the CA bottle-thrower bunch excepted, of course -- LOL). It follows, then, that in the case of a poem which is not specified to be fictional, a person who "feels" the emotions put forth by the author might be tempted to assume that those emotions are genuine rather than -- well, fabricated. Life and past experience aside, there is still a great deal of fabrication involved in writing, for example, love poetry in the present tense when you are not presently in love. Now, before everybody and their mother come seeking blood from me, let me be the first to say that I have many times been guilty of the same crime -- cranking out love poems by the dozen that were, if not necessarily uninspired, not really based in truth of the moment. This is not to say that I would not have been thrilled to actually BE in the situation described in the poem -- in fact, I think a great deal of such poetry is in fact the wishful thinking of the poet in written form. I got my share of warm-and-fuzzy congratulations on these as well, to be sure -- but rather than being annoyed by them, I took it as a compliment that I was able to (and this is going to sound REALLY bad) convince others that I was hopelessly in love when the truth was I thought up a flowery line and said "That would make a GREAT love poem!!" As far as responses, I can only speak for myself and what I do: I read every poem that I respond to at least twice -- which is why I don't respond much -- I simply don't have the time to give every poem the attention it deserves. Do I think that every poem needs to be read in depth in order to reply? No. Do I think that the author appreciates it more if the reader DOES spend time on it, as evidenced by a more fleshed-out reply? Absolutely. I LOVE it when people tell me not only that they love my poetry (Or hate it, as the case may be), but WHY they feel that way. It helps me grow as a writer, both by giving me confidence and by letting me know what is effective and what isn't in my poetry. That's my piece ... --Me Full fathom five thy father lies, Of his bones are coral made, Those are pearls that were his eyes; Nothing of him that doth fade But doth suffer a sea-change Into something rich and strange... --William Shakespeare, from The Tempest |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Chris, Prefacing your statements with “it seems” or “probably” or “to me, it appears” does not take the sting out of “(You) are giving false praise which means nothing. It’s almost demeaning in my eyes to do such.” after you have invited readers to view a particular post and asking people to take note of the replies to that particular post, even going so far as to mention a couple of replies that were acceptable to you. Perhaps your “possibilities” would not have seemed so “definitive” if you had presented this topic in a more generalized fashion without pointing to a particular thread. I am still at a loss as to the purpose of your post. Whose business is it, anyway, what a reader of a poem offers in the way of a response, other than the poet and the reader involved? Perhaps time could be better spent reading the poems and not judging the replies to the poems. I am very saddened that one of our better poets will not be here any longer. I pray he reconsiders and returns one day. I enjoyed his poems immensely and his replies to my poems even if it were just a smiley face and a few heartfelt words. It was far more feedback than I have ever gotten from many of you here and it was always appreciated. In defense of Mike, your comments could be construed as a touch arrogant, Chris, although that was not your intent. When implying, albeit “possibly”, that the responders were not really reading the poem or getting the meaning, as if they weren’t capable of or willing to see past a pretty font or flowery words, your words and the manner in which they were presented, have hurt some fine people here at Passions. Believe me, Chris, most of us do 'get' it. I still ask, what purpose was served by this? Denise p.s. upon re-reading your original post, Chris, I see that you didn't mention posts that were acceptable to you. My apologies for my faulty memory. [This message has been edited by dsnyder (edited 04-27-2000).] |
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Meadowmuse Member Elite
since 1999-12-27
Posts 3263 |
That this issue has grown to such immensity surprises me. If I've offended anyone with a careless remark in my reply to the original post here, please allow me to apologize. Truth be told, I am uncomfortable even having my writing still being referred to in this thread. I'm going to stick to posting poems on my website, I think. Or maybe just scrawling them in a notebook like I did in college would be better. Regardless, I'm just feeling quite self conscious now about "being" here. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
To quote a great man: "Be afraid, be very afraid" when the CA moderators agree on something. Denise: Jumping in here for a second. "Whose business is it, anyway, what a reader of a poem offers in the way of a response, other than the poet and the reader involved?" I think it is the business of anyone who cares about the poetry. Poetry is meant to be read (we both agree on that) but, more important than that, it is meant to be pondered and applied. Some people argue that they write their poetry from their heart and that their replies are their "heart" reactions to that poem (often only read once and quickly, I am certain). In my opinion, nomatter how well meaning the person offering the reply is, the poem has not been done justice and the poet is left with little more than a warm fuzzy feeling and a free ticket back to the top of the page. I think Meadowmuse's poem had a depth that warranted more discussion and, if I was her, I would have been a little disappointed that it seemed many did not really appreciate effort that went into writing a poem like hers. I think we have a duty to the poets in here to be polite and encouraging (and I don't think we are dilatory in practicing what we ought to practice in this case) but I think we also have a duty to encourage excellence in poetry writing. I don't see this as a CA thing but, rather, as a Passion in Poetry thing. Helping someone improve their poetry helps them to better express themselves (kinda like the "teach a man to fish" saying). The result is that they become better, more confident and happy poets. Denise, you've said in CA a few times that you cannot offer a critique of someone's poem. I think what you were really saying is that you don't really know how. I think if you would try it and develop that skill you would find a new appreciation for the poetry you read. You've written a sonnet ... have you ever taught someone how to write a sonnet? Maybe it is just a bottle-thrower trait, but I found being able to do this infinitely more satisfying than knowing that I merely gave the poet a short compliment. I am arrogant, by the way, and have come to terms with it. Mike: What is so demeaning about Chris's post? Did you really read Meadowmuse's poem? If so, then why the defensiveness? Relax. Claire: Why are you afraid of posting in CA? Brad and I are just a couple of puppy dogs ... the ladies who frequent CA, by the way, keep us in line. I would like to see some of your work in there. Sven: You should check out the debate on the subject taking place in the English Forum under "Whose interpretation is the 'right' interpretation". As far as I know, the jury is still out on the subject. Your reply, by the way, was more specific than most (not specific enough for the typical bottle-thrower but more indepth than many I see in OP).Craig: Make peace with your gods, little British man ... grrrrr! Perfume! Jim |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Well, as a matter of fact, Jim, I have written numerous sonnets, seems to be all that I can write anymore, when I do get a spark of inspiration, that is, and yes, I have taught others how to write them also, although my 'teaching' has been done via e-mail. So I suppose that I am capable of offering critique if that is considered critique, I just haven't done so in the forums. I still believe that the response to a poem is not for someone else's comment...it should be between the poet and the person responding. Whether the poet is open to critique has to be considered as well. Some are and some are not and it is the poet's right to make that determination for themselves. Most people, I have found, though, are very receptive to a private e-mail if a reader has a comment or question that may prove embarrassing to bring up in a public format. Also, a poet can get all the in-depth that they want by simply posting in C.A., so I still am left asking what was the point of this post in the first place? I am not trying to be difficult or to cause dissention, I just really don't understand this at all. I am sorry if I have caused any hurt feelings, that was not my intent. Thanks for bringing some levity to this, Jim, it is appreciated! Denise |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Denise: I just noticed you are nearing 10,000 posts ... geeze, girl, what do you do ... sit at your computer all day? Levity is important in sibling rivalry (this IS how I perceive this thread).The importance of Chris posting a thread like this one, as I see it, is to bring into the open areas where some of the members might think Passions could stand some improvement. You've read some of my poetry ... I often write it in a way that requires multiple readings (and thumbing through the dictionary) to work through. I, personally, don't think Critical Analysis is the only place where this should be done. Some poetry is meant to be contemplated (Alexander Pope's "Essay on Man" comes to mind) and I think it is important to encourage people in every forum to offer more than applause. Not only does this give more to the originating poet, it also improves the reader's ability to read, write and understand poetry. Those are worthwhile goals for Open Poetry, right? What do you think? Jim P.S. Craig ... I haven't forgotten you ... be afraid ... be very afraid. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Letting off a 'wee bit of heart' ... Christopher~ While I respect your opinion, even when it might differ from mine ... I can't help but wonder what possible difference it could make to you what I (or anyone else) 'reads' into their 'interpretation' of someone else's poem. Just pondering. If it's 'beautiful' to me ... it's 'beautiful' TO ME ! You can take my word that if I took the time to reply ... my opinion is a personal thing between me and the author. I've been 'loved', 'liked', 'tolerated', 'wow'-ed, 'awww'-ed and praised. I LIKE IT ! I LOVE IT ! And as much as I enjoy receiving it .. I enjoy giving it out. It's tearing a poem apart in the OPEN Forum's that 'grates' on me. I don't like it and don't solicit it or condone it when it's done to others. I write from my heart. If it reaches yours, I'm glad to hear that it did. If it doesn't then you can quietly close the 'book' and I'll truly never know if you read it or not. ------------------------------------------ 'To me, it appears as if those people replying didn't really reach for the meaning of the poem. They perhaps noted a pretty format and large letters and assumed that it was a happy poem. Such is not the case I think. To me, that's worse than not replying at all. (You) are giving out false praise which means nothing. It's almost demeaning in my eyes to do such.' ----------------------------------------- Because MY interpretation of a written piece differs from yours, Christopher ... it doesn't make me wrong and it certainly doesn't make you right. Just two reflective people who see things differently. Have a great evening and a better tomorrow. Love ya' ~*Marge*~ ~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~ noles1@totcon.com |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
You know... Nah, I suppose you don't, or there wouldn't have been such a to-do over such simple statements! My whole point in bringing this subject up was to A: Pose my thoughts and ideas. (would I have been recieved better had I posted it in a poem???) B: Was as Jim said, to bring it to light. Sure, I appreciate (hope that doesn't sound too arrogant there Mike,) when someone pens a light "well-done," but truthfully, I would much rather have ONE person really read my poem and get into it, tell me it stinks, than to have thirty people vapidly say it was "nice." Arrogant? Ok, if such it is called to wish for someone to really associate or understand what I write, then so be it. Personally, I though I was arrogant for other reasons, but there must be things about me which I didn't know, which others are much more suited to noticing, seeing as how they don't know me. In this particular case - A public apology Claire, I had NO idea that this would prove to be this problematic. The issues been brought up before many times and this is the first time names have been called and people have gotten their panties in a bunch over it. - I don't consider this arrogant. If someone does feel the need to be defensive, then perhaps they need to consider why. I pointed no one in particular out. As a matter of fact, most of the previous respondants on the poem in question aare friends of mine whom I respect. THEY haven't given me any grief. As a matter of fact, one of them has e-mailed me and thanked me for pointing out how their response seemed. Now geez, I'll be the last person in the world to condemn anyone for time constraints. I KNOW time constraints...LOL, though I don't think Denise gets to claim that distinction while nearing 10,000 posts! I know what it's like to not have as much time as you'd like. I also know though, that I read Claire's poem in a way that spoke to me of anything but beauty. It was extremely well written and the format was appealing. But when I read those words, and saw some of the replies, I just felt that the content wasn't truly recognized or addressed. This post and my feelings are simply my opinion. I don't remember anyone ever saying that addressing a concern, practicing your right of free speech, and basically just speaking of your feelings on a subject were enough to make you arrogant. Yes, it's the accusation of arrogance which so bothers me here. I applaud all of you, even you Mike, for speaking your mind. You too are practicing your right to free speech and I think that's awesome. But name-calling? That's a wee bit juvenile methinks. You don't know me well enough to know I'm arrogant. Pinning that label on me assumes a lot more than you Mike, a person I've never had an interchange with prior to this, has a right to assume. You know nothing of me save a few words... which I might add, you've completely misinterpreted. Every conclusion you've drawn from my post, (aside from the arrogance part...I am arrogant, but you can't say that,) is wrong. Every intent you claim I had, is wrong. Period. Do I feel bad? Do I feel like I stuck my foot in my mouth? Nope, not a bit. I fel I spoke clearly and in a respectful manner, not calling anyone names. If others misinterpreted this and took offense at it, so be it. I stopped trying to please everyone a long time ago. Peace out, Luv ya all, ('cept you Mike, you're still on my list.) |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
hehehehe....well, Jim, as a matter of fact, since I have been laid off from my job I have been at the computer day and night. I'm taking advantage of the fact that I will soon be back to work and my time on here will then again become quite limited. Now, back to the topic at hand. I think the primary consideration in Open and the other forums other than C.A. (where people are explicitly inviting critique) is the writer's feelings. The general concensus seems to be that critique is not welcome there. That being the case, I will not publically critique there. As I said, I have e-mailed people privately and I have been well received by every one of them. Now, I must confess that I too did not care for critique. After thinking about it for about a month I have changed my views on it. It doesn't bother me to have my poems critiqued as long as it is done in a courteous manner. But I realize that I can't speak for everyone and that not everyone feels as I do. This being the case, I think that the majority's wishes have to be respected. Again, I see no point in critiquing replies, especially since the poems themselves are not being posted for critique. Most people just enjoy the 'fellowship' of the forums and the fun that we all have sharing with each other. I must say that that is my primary reason for being here, as well. Everything in life doesn't have to be a 'classroom' so to speak. People's feelings are far more important to me than trying to perfect the craft of poetry. Well, that's just about all that I have to say on this, and once again, if I have hurt anyone's feelings with my comments I am very sorry, that was not my intention. Denise |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
And- Thank you Marge, you reminded me of something else I wanted to say! We all do things for different reasons. "You" don't reply in depth for yours, I comment on your lack of reply for mine. Period. I won't call you names though...well maybe, but you started it! Neener-neener! Luv ya too Marge and you're right, but so am I. How does that work??? |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Cause I'm 'RIGHTER' than you ...and 'girls' get to go first .... and I'm prettier than you ! So there ! Have a chaotic weekend.  Love ya' (and your bull-headed opinions) ~*Marge*~ AND ..... my 'depth' is as 'deep' as yours and don't you forget it ! ~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~ noles1@totcon.com |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Marge - I think if we want to talk about your depths we have to take it somewhere else. And no, you're wronger than I am! Geesh, someone get this girl a dictionary...she's spelling everything wrong!!! (though I'll concede on the prettier, 'lessin' you have hairier legs than I do...) |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
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mariee66 Senior Member
since 2000-01-30
Posts 596Recess, OfYourMind |
When I first saw this post, I immediately became offended. I posted a reply to Claire's poem that went something like this. "Wow, again. Loved this read." For you, Christopher, I will explain my "Wow" and why I loved it, even though it was a sad poem. I find Claire's poetry very unique. Her use of vocabulary, and just the way she lets her emotions flow (her style) are beautiful. Just because something is sad doesn't mean it can't be beautiful. Beauty can be found in anything. I hardly ever make lenghty comments...I'd rather read and leave a short note for the ones that grab me. Is that wrong? I don't think so. I will be taking a hiatus from this forum. I used to think it was a rather nice place, unitl I read your gripe. Marie~ |
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Marilyn Member Elite
since 1999-09-26
Posts 2621Ontario, Canada |
marie..please don't leave on account of this thread. The alley is a place for poets to blow off steam, vent their frustrations and clear the air. You also have to know Chris in order to take this thread as it was intended. There was no offense intended by what Chris said here. I know him quite well (far too well methinks at times...lol). When I first read this thread I laughed very loud. Christopher is an intellecual who loves to catch my typo's, spelling and grammerical errors. It has become a game with us. (I tend to make them on purpose when I know he is going to read...lol)He is smart as a whip and a bit of a egomanic at times but he is also very kind. He is sweet and has the most tender heart (if he would ever let you see it). He is all male and very proud of that fact. Please do not let this cause any hard feeling about this forum. We are a family and every family has it's cast of characters. Chis is just one we must tolerate and titilate from time to time...lol. Can we all agree to disagree and kiss and make up? (BTW Chis....I am FIRST in line.  lol..oh and where did you put those mento's? ) |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
After many minutes and a few deep breaths, I reconsidered the first response I was going to make here, (basically because I knew I wouldn't be able to get away with that much cursing.) Who's the arrogant one here? Hmm? What this boils down to, (Mariee specifically now,) is that you're throwing a hissy fit and waxing melodramatic over one person's opinion. Now if I stretch that thought a bit farther and assume, (Why not assume? There's been a lot of that going on in this thread.) You're castigating me for exercising my right to speek freely. Not only a right I was born with as an American, but a right that I upheld while serving in this country's military. And at the last, I didn't stray from the policies set within these forums. (Policies which I might add weren't made by a single person. Rather many had input on them and do to this day.) So in effect, you're a commie! Just kidding on the commie bit, but let's think about this: Why so defensive? Why so touchy? Bad day? Too much cholesterol? Not enough toilet paper in the bathroom? I'm just curious, because if you're basing the "niceness" of this place, (Passions,) on the words of one person - a person you don't know - then I think you're a just a teensy-tad bit too touchy. On the other hand, if you're looking for a perfect world in which your previous image of "this place" would fit, then I suggest you close your eyes and go to sleep. Because the only place you're finding this idyllic haven you appear to be looking for is in your dreams. Let me tell ya', perfection doesn't exist. (Besides, the whole concept is over-rated. Why would you want something "perfect?" I'd think it would get boring awfully quick!) Now if, (as I've seen happen several times since I've been here,) you're just pouting, throwing a fit and basically looking for some extra attention in the form of people crying for you to "stay, no, please don't leave! We all love you!!!"... I hope you get it. It irks me to no end that I might be providing a catalyst for such petty ego-games, but hey, I've been used for worse things by worse people. But if ANYONE thinks I'm backing down on this, they're WRONG! I don't feel for one second that I've done anything against the rules, amoral or even truly offensive. If someone IS offended, then they need to grow thicker skin or learn to stay at home in their "perfect" little world. It's a tough place out here in reality. Now I'm not saying that there's any reason for someone to out and out be rude on anything. This post wasn't intended to be rude, as many people realized... even those who don't know me. I was, (hell, I can't believe I'm repeating this AGAIN!) just posing some thoughts. I would have more than welcomed any contrary opinions. You arent' required, nor was I asking for you to, agree with me. I fully expected people to disagree! That was also a reason to post this. It does good to stir people's blood a bit from time to time. That doesn't mean they have to take it to heart though. Try it sometime, try disagreeing without getting all pissy. It can be fun! But anyway, on this post I was looking for some feedback. I admit that I could very well be wrong on my ideas and I would have had no problem with someone politely arguing the point. BUT, when someone starts out getting offended at something that wasn't written offensively, and starts calling me names, THEN, I get rude. In closing, Mariee, Mike, anyone who was offended by a post that was clearly not written to be offensive, I have three words for you: DEAL WITH IT.Peace out to the rest. |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
I don't like to get in the middle of things... After reading this I just felt compelled to write what poetry and passions means to me and my heart(this is not to choose sides or anything) just my honest feelings. I love people, I love to write poetry that touches a person or gets a message across...I am not looking for fame or to be number one(not saying anyone here is) I appreciate comments that are nice...If I wanted my poems to be critized I would post them In CA. That is what is so neat about OPEN it is open minded. I personally feel that poetry is an art, many people will look at a painting and see different things...and I also think as writers or poets, we don't always write from OUR experiance, we in some way become actors and actresses to a degree, that doesn't mean the poem is fake or we are fake, it is creative writing, it is filled with FEELING and to me poetry is about feeling. I can write about feeling anothers pain from their point of view, their experiances. I am just like a prism...being used to translate into words, what most people , who don't have the gift of poetry or writing can't do. I am fine with all replies (EXCEPT ones that personally attack a poets character) I feel if a person doesn't like my poem then they don't have to reply... I am not a member of passions just to get replies...as a matter of fact that is the last on my list of whys... I think we as humans tend to judge others to quickly without taking a mirror and looking at our own mistakes or where we fall short, Patience and love is the key....Love others, treat others with the same love, same respect as we (you) want to be treated. I am no one to say anything bad or critical about another person...and why be negitive...when there is so much good that comes from positive... I am not, nor claim to be a great intellect, but one who loves, and out of loving, how can you go wrong, for with love comes great wisdom. I know that I don't always spell my words right...so I am not perfect...which makes me humble...and on the same degree as everyone else...not above or below..but equal. Poetry is free, free to express, free to be, free to create, free to anything...and when you put it in a box, smoother it , analize it, to me it strips the away the beauty, the freedom of poetry. I personally think if you are looking for intelligent replies then you should post in that kind of forum where you will receive it. We are all not the same, which makes the world go around, so there are different forums for different people. Gee this place would be boring if we were all perfect robots and acted the same... Divirsity in replies and poetry is beautiful to me.... That is the way I see and feel as a member of passions... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Well, I suppose it was time. It doesn't at all surprise me that this theme would surface again, because it seems to do so with only slightly less regularity than the moon. What does surprise me a little is finding people that have been at Passions a very long time (in Internet years, which are even more disproportionate than those infamous dog years) amongst those howling at this particular moon. It's a shame that two very disparate topics (though not completely unrelated) have found themselves bound together in the same thread. Whether a poem should be read as an confessional or not really deserves more attention, I think, than it's likely to find here. Perhaps someone with thoughts on the matter will be kind enough to open a new thread? I'll even throw a little fuel on that fire by stating my own humble opinion in advance: I've read many autobiographical poems that weren't good, but I've never read a good poem that wasn't autobiographical. The bulk of this thread, however, isn't about poetry. It isn't even about replies to poetry, though that's certainly what seems to have floated to the surface. It's really about people, about motivations, and about this strange thing we call language. Let's talk about language first. As writers, we all know how slippery those little critters we call words can often be. We spend a lot of time, I suspect, trying to pin them down long enough to throw on a saddle. Words and language, after all, are simply vehicles, albeit important and necessary ones. Our destinations are those twin peaks we see in the distance: Meaning and Understanding. Part of our job as writers is to first insure that we and the reader are sitting in the same saddle. Only when we share that common reference can we take the reins in hand and guide our passengers to that first peak, Meaning. And only then can we hope we have chosen a steed with the endurance to take us beyond Meaning, to Understanding. Sadly, even the best and most conscientious writers can find themselves in a different saddle from those they are trying to guide. Words are such slippery beasts! Christopher's own reply to Claire, I think, suggests this has been the case here. "I don't see beauty in this, though you use such flowing phrases," he writes, in part. "I see this indeed, with a depth of sadness that few poems can engender." It's clear, I think, that Chris sees beauty and sadness as self-contradictions, as mutually exclusive. Sitting in that saddle, it's maybe easier to understand how he would find descriptions like "Beautiful" and "Wow" to suggest a lack of real understanding. In one sense, I think I might even agree with Christopher's interpretation of the word. Technically, it would be more accurate to describe Claire's work as "beautifully expressed," rather than as beautiful. But in a deeper sense, I would strongly disagree with his limited definition. Claire's poem, like the tragedies of Shakespeare, goes beyond Meaning into the infinitely deeper realms of Understanding. And I think there is a beauty in Truth, even a truth we find sad and otherwise ugly. But it doesn't really matter if Christopher and I can agree on the meaning of Beauty. It's just a word, after all, that most slippery of beasts. What does matter, and I think what has caused so much confusion, is that we should at least agree and recognize that we do hold different definitions for the word. I think Claire's poem was beautiful. If Chris recognizes that I'm sitting in a different saddle, a saddle where beauty and ugliness can not only coexist but can even mean the same thing, then perhaps he can also recognize I found the same Understanding in the poem he did - even if I choose to express my discovery differently. And trust me, Chris, I did read the poem. And that brings us back to the moon still circling in the sky, and to our propensity for howling at it. Because in all likelihood, I will express myself differently than will Christopher. This would be a very boring world if all of us were sitting in the same saddles and all seeking the same Understanding. Fortunately, there's little danger of that boredom finding us here! I think it's very easy and all too common to assign our own motivations to other people. It may even be inevitable and necessary. But I think we all know that doing so holds hidden dangers. Many of you have touched upon what I consider the very essence of these forums, perhaps even the essence of poetry. We are all different. What we write is certainly different, but so too is why we write. And as many of you have recognized, why we post what we write is equally different as well. There was a time - and it really wasn't all that long ago - when these forums were comprised of a mere handful of people. Even then there were differences, of course, but the differences weren't as great as they are today. We were able to learn from each other, I think, to grow together, I think, and I know we were able to develop some very strong and lasting ties that went far beyond the simple words we posted. It was good. I'm going to go back to a time when someone who is now very much a part of the foundation at Passions first joined us. There was already a small, core group of poets posting in a hidden forum when he first surfaced, though many of you may well be surprised to think of Balladeer as a "newbie." But I still remember my first introduction to his work, and I recall the immense pleasure and satisfaction he brought to the group. I learned more about poetry and story-telling and building to a conclusion from Balladeer in a week than I had learned in the several months of posting with all the other great poets that were part of our small enclave. It was his work, and that of a few others that joined us shortly afterwards, that convinced me our small, intimate assembly should be allowed to grow. He taught me what many of you have since come to recognize, what perhaps some of you have always known. As a small, closed group we were strong, but as an open, diverse group our strength was multiplied by far more than simply our numbers. Passions, I think, is unique. It is our commonalties that have made us a family, but it is our differences that make us enduring. There are other places on the Internet, small and closed, that have developed a sense of family. There are many more, large and open, that have discovered the strength of our diversity. None have managed to combine the two as we have here. Our commonalties and the sense of family it gives us are important, and I'm sure none of us would ever want to lose that. But neither can we afford to sacrifice our diversity in the interests of maintaining commonality. We insist on Respect & Tolerance, and perhaps because like draws like, we continue to attract people who sincerely care about other people. Those are our commonalties, I think. Those make us a family. But if we force people to post in a common mold, either their poetry or their replies, we are in serious danger of losing our diversity. There is no "right" reason to post poetry. There is no "right" way to respond to poetry. There are a plethora of reasons, one for every registered Member, and a multitude of ways. You don't have to agree with every reason, nor do you have to appreciate every way of responding. But I sincerely believe that if you try to understand them, you can at least learn to respect them. When sincerely given with respect there are no short replies, there are no non sequitor replies, there certainly are no demeaning replies - there are only gifts freely offered from one person to another, from one writer to another. The gift might not be the one you would have liked, and it very likely won't be the one you would have given - and therein lies our strength. As for the distinction between the "sincerity" and "quality" of a response, I find the arguments moot. No one has seemingly questioned the sincerity, nor can we until instruments are developed to peer within the heart and mind of another, but I think it's equally impossible to question the quality of a response. Quality is determined by purpose. And if we all approach our poetry with a different purpose isn't it likely our responses are probably a reflection of our own purpose? I applaud Brad and Jim and all the others for their devotion to better learn our craft, and especially for their willingness to help others learn. I suspect, by now, everyone here knows where I stand on learning and bettering ourselves. But not everyone at Passions is here for that reason, and even those eager to learn won't do so through the same mechanism. I play golf (very badly). I play because I enjoy the sun and the opportunity to spend time with a few close friends. If I learn a better swing through osmosis, by watching someone who knows more about it than do I, I consider that a bonus for the day. It makes me feel good, but it's not why I play. And having one of my friends constantly trying to correct my swing only intrudes on the reasons why I do play. I guess I'm fortunate to have friends who are willing to put up with my ineptitude and respect my reason for being there. I'd even like to think they appreciate the fact I'm there because of them and not because I enjoy chasing a ball I could have just as easily kept in my bag to start with. Someday, if I continue, perhaps I'll be motivated to improve my game. For now, though, it's enough to just play. And isn't that where learning always starts? In closing (and yea, I know it's about time!), I'd like to touch on one last thing. Something I think is important. Everyone in this thread, and in similar ones posted lately, has done an admirable job of adhering to the letter of our guidelines. I question, however, whether everyone has followed the spirit of those guidelines. Open opinions are good. Dissention is part of diversity. Misunderstandings are inevitable. Mix those with Respect & Tolerance, and Passions will continue to grow and prosper, and I'd like to think those who post here will also grow. Mix those with disdain for the feelings of others, however, and our happy home will dissolve into just another cauldron of bitterness. There are enough of those on the Internet, and in real life, and I doubt we need another. You don't have to agree with everyone. You don't even have to like everyone. But I would hope we can all learn to respect everyone's right to be different. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Sigh, see, the whole thing is that I wasn't mad at anyone, I wasn't suggesting that everyone should agree with me or anything along those lines. As Ron stated so eloquently, we are diverse and know what, I LIKE IT THAT WAY! I respect almost all of you, and on many occasions one or more, (ok usually more) have disagreed with me. Know what else? I think that's great! I applaud anyone's opinion, especially if it's different, because that provides me the opportunity to see a different side of the issue. Ron in specific has helped me reach different conclusions on subjects before...But it was done through reasoning and polite speech. He's never treated anyone that I've seen him interact with, with less than 100% respect! This may be something I aspire to one of these days, but not right now. |
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poetFemmeFatale Member Elite
since 1999-07-25
Posts 2646Arkansas |
ROFLMAO !! You're so brave Chris....(sigh) |
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StarrGazer Senior Member
since 2000-03-05
Posts 679Texas |
*Ducks out of the way of flying words* Whew looks like they missed LOL *running back to dp or the pub to hide from the flying words now* ok on a more serious note (do I really have to be serious?) hmmm is this one of those perceptions things? ok ok I'm trying to be serious here ...I have to agree with Ron on this one and he does have such an elegant yet precise and clear way of laying things out everyone is different everyone writes different and every one interprets things differently based on their life experiences and even their moods at that particular moment I know I read a lot into poems based on the mood I am feeling at the time I read them... but thats the great thing about poetry you could read a poem go back a few weeks later and it is very likely you will interpret it in an entirely different way and responses can be viewed in much the same way ... it is all how much we as individuals read into a particular response, granted it might not be the message that was being conveyed but as was said earlier until we come up with some technology that allows us to veiw and feel another persons thought as they have them and not as we interpret them then our interpretations will have to do ... ok enough seriouseness for the night (((((hugzzzz everyone))))) smile ! |
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netswan Senior Member
since 2000-03-28
Posts 1369Washington |
My gosh! I am still sort of new here. It took me forever to get down after reading all the responses in here. And, I did not see anything in Christophers gripe that reflected that we are all just a bunch of "WOW", "beautiful" people. Christopher, I can't help but give advice I am a nurturer, and some poems, I just want to hug people in their pain. And, so I DO. If I have misintrepted that the poem was just out of imagination, it does not really matter, does it? If I were to write about a subject that angers me -----do I Need to write a disclaimer at the end and say, HEY THIS is out of my imagination - or should I just let people read into the poem what they want out of it. As a fiction writer - I just write --- some amusing some clever some total disasters some about truth, but most people who are writing may be writing about a past experience or an experience they have seen in a friend -----and the writing is sad, painful ----yet, it is written so real that it is beautiful. To me a poem does not have to be perfect in meter, or in rhyme or in metric or even have equal sized stanzes IF IT DID I would not be able to write anything worth commenting on ----I write ---- and hope that someone will cry, or laugh or feel those feelings of which I am portraying ------- I even go down the list to see if someone has not even gotten a response and if the poem is something that I can understand, I will write a comment ----IF a poem is not good, I JUST LEAVE and don't write a thing. I am not a judge -- I am human and respond with a warm heart to those that pour their words out here in this forum. But, I was not offended by your gripe. I figure it this way, Christopher, if someone has taken the time to respond to my poem and say something nice about the content. I feel happy that they read and responded. Not everyone is the same in life, and words can mean many different things to different people -- I guess it is like a picture. Some people Love Picasso, and I look at his pictures and think, Gee give me a few tubes of oil paint and I will just squirt and smear it on the canvas and sign it ------LOL yes, I see he had talent, but I do not enjoy his pictures at all. So, each of us are different, and that is life. Thanks for your very touching response to my "I didn't get any letters from Vietnam" I knew you were sincere --) I love to get responses, good bad, or indifferent -----but am not brave enough to put my poems in the CA --LOL Oh maybe I will put "just imagine" in just to see if I can take it. LOL Interesting gripes in this alley and interesting things to talk about -- I am long winded. But, will champion Chris, it is all in how we read things. I did not see anything evil or mean about his gripe. After all, it is his gripe. Just remember Christopher, we all read and see things differently, and that is why Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. netswan |
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