My first (short) poem in trochaic tetrameter(I think)

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freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

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CA, USA

0 posted 2009-02-16 10:24 PM

I think this is in trochaic tetrameter but i'm probably wrong. I'm also pretty sure i mest up somewhere. This just practice, so this is probably really bad and not at all understandable. Anyways, here it is.

Fate, destiny, wait for bright love,
Before patience dims from light of,
Beats that take your breath to silence,
Waiting alone for love's presence.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

Falling rain

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since 2008-01-31

Posts 2178
Small town, Illinois

1 posted 2009-02-17 08:23 AM

I tried reading using the meter and everything but I think I might be reading it wrong. How many is there in a trochaic tetrameter?

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

GothicCherry
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since 2008-09-16

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2 posted 2009-02-17 08:43 AM

I've been attempting it as well. So far my only outcome has been a huge head-ache.

Falling rain

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3 posted 2009-02-17 08:47 AM

Yeah same here. Hey Michaela! Lets break out the aspirin and try again eh? hehe.

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

GothicCherry
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since 2008-09-16

Posts 471
TN

4 posted 2009-02-17 08:52 AM

Yeah, let's take another shot at it. Goodluck!!!

freeand2sexy
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5 posted 2009-02-17 11:46 AM

Trochee: stressed-unstressed

Tetrameter: four feet per line.

So my poem should be like this in each line, well, if i did it right

S u / S u / S u / S u

Oh man now i got a headache, too, i think i just realized where i messed up, i guess its back to the drawing board, again.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

Falling rain

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since 2008-01-31

Posts 2178
Small town, Illinois

6 posted 2009-02-17 03:33 PM

HaHa.. I'll go make coffee. This meter thing is gonna take a while and I got all night. lol

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

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CA, USA

7 posted 2009-02-17 04:24 PM

Tell me about it! sadly its going to take more than one night.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

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8 posted 2009-02-17 06:26 PM

Christine

Only just seen this and unfortunately out of time tonight, but it's nice to see someone making an effort to learn about meter. Seen your post in CA as well, which I'll try to get to tomorrow too.

In the meantime try listening to the stress patterns of words.

When you say the words: "city", "library", "poem", "Hiawatha" what syllables do you naturally stress?

For instance I stress Hiawatha as follows:

HI a WATH a  - the uppercase is for the stressed syllables and the lower for the unstressed.  Try it with the other words I mentioned.

Then take your poem:

"Fate, destiny, wait for bright love,
Before patience dims from light of,
Beats that take your breath to silence,
Waiting alone for love's presence."

Try going through the poem showing the stress patterns with uppercase and lower case notation.  This is called scanning a poem.

The first line for instance probably scans as follows:

FATE, DES tin y, WAIT for BRIGHT love,

(although "love" could possibly be stressed too)

Don't worry too much about fancy names (iambs, trochees, anapests etc) of metric feet at this stage; just concentrate on becoming familiar with the way words and phrases are naturally stressed.

I'll see if I can help some more tomorrow.

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

Posts 704
CA, USA

9 posted 2009-02-17 07:41 PM

Yeah, I realized that I messsed up on the first line this morning. I guess I thought it was des TIN y and then this morning I realized that it actually was DES tin y.

Thank you so much for your help, I appreciate it more than you know.

And I'll try not to worry about the fancy names as you put it, but they are all in my head, and I actually know what they all mean. You see I've been learning for the past month (and am still learning)all about poetry,(at least as much as I can)before putting it all into my own poetry, so though I won't worry it's still going to be in the back of my a head.

Oh, and I'm not the only one making an effort to learn meter, my friends Zach(Falling rain) and Michaela(GothicCherry) are as well.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

10 posted 2009-02-18 05:07 AM

Hi Christine, Zach and Michaela

The heart of English rhythms is "stress"  - the emphasis placed on syllables in the spoken word.  Stress is also the building block of "meter".

As soon as you start talking about meter in poetry people will start throwing terms such as iambic pentameter, anapaestic dimeter and trochaic hexameter at you.  These terms are borrowed from Greek and Latin linguists and do not fit well with the rhythms of modern spoken English.  Unfortunately you can't ignore them totally even today, because a lot of formal poetry is still referenced back to those terms.

For instance you will be told that a sonnet is written in "iambic pentameter".  And here is wikipedia's description of Sapphic metre:

"The Sapphic stanza, named after Sappho, is an Aeolic verse form spanning four lines (more properly three, in the poetry of Sappho and Alcaeus, where there is no word-end before the final Adonean).

The form is two hendecasyllabic verses, and a third verse beginning the same way and continuing with five additional syllables (given as the stanza's fourth verse in ancient and modern editions, and known as the Adonic or adonean line)."

Hopefully that will have totally confused you, because as I said before, one of the best ways to get yourself confused and turned off to learning about poetic rhythm and meter is to worry about reproducing poetic lines which "follow" these archaic terms.

I am not saying that it is not interesting, or even necessary, to know about them a bit later.

BUT when you are starting out, try to forget them and just concentrate of HEARING the sound and stress patterns of words and phrases.

So first off I need to see how you are handling this idea of stress patterns.  Are you hearing them.  And if you are, can you scan a few lines correctly.

To start with then lets have a discussion about a few lines of poetry and see if you can scan them for their stress patterns.  Try these:

Polly put the kettle on

And summer's lease hath all too short a date

Dark behind it rose the forest

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary

My! what a spread for the friends of Myfanwy

And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea

Ok, if you post your ideas on the stress patterns in those lines here in this thread it would be good.  Use the notation of uppercase for stressed and lowercase for unstressed syllables, as in the following example:

the LIGHT of HEAV en SHINES in EV ery PLACE

Don't worry about naming the meter or arranging into feet or anything like that.  Just scan the lines above as I have done.

M

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

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11 posted 2009-02-18 11:41 AM

Well, I tried but I'm sure I mest up somewhere. I think its starting to get easier

PO lly put the KET tle on

And SUM mer's LEASE hath ALL too SHORT a DATE

DARK be HIND it ROSE the FOR est

ONCE up ON a MID night DREAR y, WHILE i PON dered WEAK and WEAR y

MY! what a SPREAD for the FRIENDS of My FAN wy

And the SHEEN of their SPEARS was like STARS on the SEA

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

Falling rain

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since 2008-01-31

Posts 2178
Small town, Illinois

12 posted 2009-02-18 12:38 PM

*shrugs* Well here goes nothing haha.
POllY pUT the KETtle on

And SummER's lEAse HAth all too SHorT a dATE

DARK bEhInd it ROSE the forEST

Once UPON a MIdnIGHt dreary (not sure on that word), whILE I PONdeRed weak and wearY

MY! WHAT a SPread for the FRiENDs of Myfanwy (<-- not sure on that either)

And the shEEN of thEIR spEARS was like stARS on the sEA

Okay so I prolly got this all wrong. I have a strong feeling I got the whole stress messed up.

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

Posts 704
CA, USA

13 posted 2009-02-18 12:52 PM

Wait I'm confusing myself

is it

PO lly put the KET tle on

or

PO lly PUT the KET tle ON

At first I thought it was the first one but now I think it could be the second one.

Help!

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

Falling rain

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since 2008-01-31

Posts 2178
Small town, Illinois

14 posted 2009-02-18 12:58 PM

Okay when ever I say that out loud I say it fast. So it would be the second option. But if I say it slowly and take time to say it correctly it sounds like the first option you picked. I think it varies between how its pronounced. Does that make any sense?

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

Posts 704
CA, USA

15 posted 2009-02-18 01:01 PM

uhhhhh, kinda, I don't know, well its 10am in Cali, and I don't completely wake up til 12pm, so it could make sense I'm just not sure of it yet. lol

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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16 posted 2009-02-18 03:56 PM

Just a quickie.

Very good indeed Christine. Apart from Polly who you seem to be struggling with you were spot on perfect.

Now can you have a go at scanning your poem in this thread using the same notation?

I scan:

POLL y PUT the KETT le ON

Which is what you arrived at in the end.

Zach

Good shot, but we just need to clarify the way you are scanning - especially with reference to syllables. I'll be back later with some thoughts for you.

M

freeand2sexy
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17 posted 2009-02-18 04:40 PM

Now that I look at my poem in this thread again, I can see that I messed up in every stanza but one.
I think it scans like this, but please correct me if I'm wrong

FATE, DES tin y, WAIT for BRIGHT love,
Be FORE PA tience DIMS from LIGHT of,
BEATS that TAKE your BREATH to SI lence,
WAIT ing a LONE for love's PRE sence.

The word love I guess could go either way.

I feel that this poem can't be fixed (well maybe I'm too lazy to try)

But I wrote another short poem in iambic tetrameter(sorry for the fancy name) that is similar to the first

My fate is waiting, wanting love
Before my patience dims of beats
That takes my breath and adds this lust,
A yearning , longing, thirst it needs

It should scan like this

My FATE is WAIT ing, WANT ing LOVE
Be FORE my PA tience DIMS of BEATS
That TAKES my BREATH and ADDS this LUST,
A YEARN ing , LONG ing, THIRST it NEEDS

I hope I did it right this time and please pay little to no attention to the content of the poem.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

18 posted 2009-02-18 05:37 PM

Christine and Zach

I just used up my time tonight checking out Christine's poem in CA, so I'm sorry - I'll try and get back to you on this in the morning (it's 10.36 pm here).

What you did looks good though Christine.

Laters

M

GothicCherry
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since 2008-09-16

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19 posted 2009-02-18 05:47 PM

I am not very good at this, but I went over this final one you posted many times and it seems to be stressed right to me.

Moonbeam-
I went over the lines you posted and I got it nearly right. I didn't have enough time to post what I believed was correct. I took a glance at Christine's and noticed a few places where I'd messed up, besides that this is starting to sink in. Thanks for helping us all out.

Zach-
Lord bless the people who master writing in such complex ways. Lol...

moonbeam

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20 posted 2009-02-19 05:28 AM

Well Christine you nailed it I think.  Both the scanning of your original poem and that of the new iambic version.

I see from your post in CA that you are interested primarily in writing formal poetry.  If you can get it from the library there is a very easily readable book by Stephen Fry:
http://www.amazon.com/Ode-Less-Travelled-Unlocking-Within/dp/009179661X

Which deals exclusively with form poetry in all its wonderful manifestations.

A word of caution though.  Being able to write in traditional forms such as terza rima, villanelles, ballads, and sonnets as you mentioned is a wonderful skill and very satisfying, but really at your level of skill, where you clearly understand and can "hear" stress patterns, it is now merely a matter of knowing the forms and fitting in the appropriate stresses and rhyming patterns.

Have you ever thought about WHY people might want to read your poetry though?

I assure you that no-one is going to be interested in reading your writing merely because it happens to be a villanelle or a sonnet.  It all depends upon why you want to write.  If you are just doing it for your own satisfaction then no problem - learn the forms and off you go!

But interesting poetry isn't about fitting a stress pattern into an ancient form.  It speaks to life love death the seasons war etc, all the things that matter to humans.  And if you want to learn to write in the formal styles you've mentioned AND write good poetry then, like mastering all worthwhile things, you need to practice practice practice.  In fact you need to become so absolutely familiar with meter and unforced rhyme that it becomes second nature - rather like the way you forget about the controls of a car when you drive.

My recommendation (from personal experience) is that as well as playing around with the various forms if you like, you also get down to some serious writing of blank verse.  Beginners often dive right into writing villanelles, sonnets or whatever, and don't realise just how hard it is to write a good formal poem AND make good sense!  One of the biggest distractions for beginners setting out to master meter and the various forms is the need to simultaneously think about:

1 Writing something worthwhile
2 Following the correct form and metrical pattern
3 Making unforced end rhymes

Writing loads and loads of stuff in blank verse as practice enables you to remove perhaps the most distracting element - the need to end rhyme.  Blank verse is simply 10 syllables per line in "da DUM da DUM" stress pattern - (iambic pentameter if you wish), but without any end rhyme.  Milton in Paradise lost for instance used it:

" From what highth fal'n, so much the stronger provd
    He with his Thunder: and till then who knew
    The force of those dire Arms? yet not for those
    Nor what the Potent Victor in his rage
    Can else inflict do I repent or change,
    Though chang'd in outward lustre; that fixt mind
    And high disdain, from sence of injur'd merit,
    That with the mightiest rais'd me to contend,
    And to the fierce contention brought along
    Innumerable force of Spirits arm'd
    That durst dislike his reign, and me preferring,
    His utmost power with adverse power oppos'd
    In dubious Battel on the Plains of Heav'n,
    And shook his throne. What though the field be lost?"

(Some lines have "female" endings (unstressed last syllable as in "and me preferring"), thus have 11 syllables, a permitted variation of blank verse).

You may not like blank verse as you said in CA but it really is imo a necessary stepping stone towards an ability to write good formal poetry.  At first you may find you struggle just to keep the iambic pattern using one and two syllable words, but after a while you should start to incorporate some multi-syllable words and experiment with enjambment and trochaic variations.  Finally when the meter is second nature you will hopefully begin to write stuff that makes sense and then go on to writing real poetry with originality and flair.  Only when you can do that expertly in blank verse should you move on to trying to write serious rhyming poetry, and even then I recommend to start with one on the easier forms.  Simple quatrains in iambic pentameter would be a good start like this from Thomas Gray's "Elegy Written in a Country Church-yard":

   "The Curfew tolls the knell of parting day,
    The lowing herd wind slowly o'er the lea,
    The plowman homeward plods his weary way,
    And leaves the world to darkness and to me."

Then perhaps move on to try a Shakespearean sonnet.

But for now if you want to I'd love to see you write 50 lines of blank verse and post in this forum or CA!

Good luck.

M

PS Incidentally Christine I see from your post in CA that you say that you hate free verse.  Try not to hate it!

You see even free verse is grounded in the deeply embedded rhythms of language and the patterning (stress patterns) of sounds. Good free verse can be just as lyrical and beautiful as end rhymed form poetry. While it may not at first sight to have any meter, more often than not pleasing free verse establishes patterns with metrical fragments, internal rhymes, and repeating rhythms for example. But again, good free verse is hard to write, and the best poets will have a strong grounding in metrical verse and be completely coversant with the manipulation of stress patterns. You have to know the rules in order to break them!

moonbeam

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21 posted 2009-02-19 05:29 AM

Zach

Forgive me if this sounds patronising but I am not clear as to whether you are totally comfortable with identifying "syllables", and this ability is very necessary before you can move on to looking at stress patterns. For as each syllable in the English language has a certain level of emphasis or stress you obviously need to be able to identify the syllables before you can decide what stress they should have.

The word:
Constantinople has 5 syllables. Con stan tin o ple

Can you give me the number of syllables in each of the following words, and identify the syllables in the same way as I have done above with spaces:

angel

virus

paradise

integer

assimilate

variation

astronomical

hippopotamus

supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

Good luck!

M

moonbeam

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22 posted 2009-02-19 05:38 AM

You're welcome Michaela.

Falling rain

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23 posted 2009-02-19 07:36 AM

angel (an-gel) 2

virus (vi-rus) 2

paradise (pa-ra-dise) 3

integer (in-te-ger) 3

assimilate (a-ssim-i-late) 4

variation (var-ri-a-tion) 4

astronomical (as-tro-nom-i-cal) 5

hippopotamus (hip-po-pot-tu-amus)5

supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

(su-per-cal-i-fra-gil-list-tic-ex-pi-ali-do-ci-ous) 14

I know what they are moonbeam. I was just having a bad day yesterday to concentrate. So I messed up a lot. I wrote 3 poems using syllable patterns. If you want you can check the out and see how well I actually do with syllables.

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

moonbeam

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24 posted 2009-02-19 10:30 AM

That's cool Zach.  Hope you didn't mind me checking.

You need to check out the last one again though!  A couple of errors there.

Now for the more difficult part!  Can you scan each word using the uppercase lowercase notation?  I'll do the first one (coz it's easy, heh):

angel (an-gel) 2    AN  gel

virus (vi-rus) 2

paradise (pa-ra-dise) 3

integer (in-te-ger) 3

assimilate (a-ssim-i-late) 4

variation (var-ri-a-tion) 4

astronomical (as-tro-nom-i-cal) 5

hippopotamus (hip-po-pot-tu-amus)5

supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

(su-per-cal-i-fra-gil-list-tic-ex-pi-ali-do-ci-ous) 14

One thing to be aware of is that I'm English and we stress certain words differently to Americans - so if we disagree on something that seems obvious then that might be the explanation.

Best.

M

freeand2sexy
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25 posted 2009-02-19 11:23 AM

NOOOOOOOOO!!!! (Sorry for my lack of enthusiasm on blank verse)

Fine, I'll do it, there are three things though

First let me tell you it's going to take a while (only because I'll have to force myself)

Second I’m not going to like it

And third, it's going to be extremely hard not to rhyme (it just comes naturally) so it's going to take longer than I wish it would.

So one question, if it ends up rhyming in certain places (without me trying of course) is that bad? (Are points going to get knocked off?)

And wait 50 lines?

Holy smokes! I guess I better go make sure I have coffee, aspirin, a wet towel, oh and pillows to put around my chair in case I faint.

Wish me good luck, I definitely need it.

(I'm crying inside you just can't tell)

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

Posts 704
CA, USA

26 posted 2009-02-19 01:26 PM

I have another question, can the word 'you', be stressed?

(Got 15 lines down already)(still crying inside, though)

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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27 posted 2009-02-19 03:00 PM

Well good for you Christine doing this

.  My Mom always used to say cod liver oil was good for me (I'm still not convinced), I used to hate it, but I daresay she might have been right.

Anyway it sounds like you are doing ok - 15 lines already is going some!  Yep, the occasional end-rhyme is fine especially if it is separated by a few lines from its mate.

Your question about "you" is a good one and shows that you are already benefiting from this exercise because it raises an important point.  Some might disagree with what I'm about to say but most probably wouldn't and moreover this view is supported by Robert Pinsky in his excellent books "The Sounds of Poetry" which you really should try and get from your library or secondhand bookstore, it's only a little book.  In fact if you have $4 you could buy it here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0374526176/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=us   ed

So, Pinsky says, and I quote:

"I'll focus more minutely for a moment.  Here is an English sound:

it

In the nature of the English language, the sound, which happens also to be a one syllable word, is neither stressed nor unstressed, by itself.  It is neither short nor long, by itself.

The sound is conventionally stressed, relative to the syllables near it, when one says "bitter" or "reiterate" or "she had wit".  It is conventionally unstressed when one says "italicize" or "rabbit" or "Pat had it".

These examples demonstrate a useful principle: the stress on a syllable in English is not inherent in the sound, but relative.  A syllable is stressed or unstressed only in relation to the syllables around it."

I hope this goes some way to answering your question Christine.  The fact is that a syllable may be unstressed in one sentence and stressed in another depending upon the expectation of patterning that the ear is expecting to hear in a particular phrase or poem.

In the following extract the predominant meter is DUM da da (or if you want, dactylic) "you" and "your" usually fall in the unstressed part of the dactylic foot, but not that even the syllable "lights" which would normally be stressed is allowed by the mind to pass as unstressed, simply because the mind is by that stage expecting it to be.

Print on my gaze your Perpetua promises
Courier kisses brush over my eyes,
Bold me your feeling and show me how strong this is,
Arial chatter in micro soft skies.

Turn on your word wrap and clothe me in fantasy,
Justify us to the centre of all,
Lift me to highlights you know that I want to see,
Save me in memory, don't let me fall.

Now look at a couple of Shakespeare's sonnets:

I (Sonnet 1)

From fairest creatures we desire increase,
That thereby beauty's rose might never die,
But as the riper should by time decease,
His tender heir might bear his memory:
But thou contracted to thine own bright eyes,
Feed'st thy light's flame with self-substantial fuel,
Making a famine where abundance lies,
Thy self thy foe, to thy sweet self too cruel:
Thou that art now the world's fresh ornament,
And only herald to the gaudy spring,
Within thine own bud buriest thy content,
And tender churl mak'st waste in n i g g arding:
Pity the world, or else this glutton be,
To eat the world's due, by the grave and thee.

II (Sonnet 2)

When forty winters shall besiege thy brow,
And dig deep trenches in thy beauty's field,
Thy youth's proud livery so gazed on now,
Will be a tatter'd weed of small worth held:
Then being asked, where all thy beauty lies,
Where all the treasure of thy lusty days;
To say, within thine own deep sunken eyes,
Were an all-eating shame, and thriftless praise.
How much more praise deserv'd thy beauty's use,
If thou couldst answer 'This fair child of mine
Shall sum my count, and make my old excuse,'
Proving his beauty by succession thine!
This were to be new made when thou art old,
And see thy blood warm when thou feel'st it cold.

As you know traditionally sonnets are written in iambic pentameter.  Study this line:

Thy self thy foe, to thy sweet self too cruel

and these:

This were to be new made when thou art old,
And see thy blood warm when thou feel'st it cold.

Could you scan them:

thy SELF thy FOE, to THY sweet (or SWEET) SELF too CRUEL

and:

this WERE to BE new MADE when THOU are OLD
and SEE thy BLOOD warm WHEN thou FEEL'ST it COLD

In the first line "thy" is both stressed and unstressed depending on its relative position in the line.

In the other lines "thou" (or "you" in modern language) is both stressed and unstressed.

Does this answer your question Christine.

Keep taking the aspirin!

M

freeand2sexy
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Posts 704
CA, USA

28 posted 2009-02-19 03:49 PM

Yes my question has been answered. Thank you very much, it actually makes sence.

(got to line 17, but now stuck in the mud)

I'm having a problem with line 16, will i be cheating if i asked you for help on this line,

So sly and cunning, why would you, my sweet

I want it to be read like this

So SLY and CUNN ing, WHY would YOU, my SWEET

but I'm afraid it won't be read like that, do you know what I did wrong

And if you feel like I should figure it out on my own, then please tell me so and I will try.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

29 posted 2009-02-19 03:56 PM

It's absolutely fine Christine. Like I said up above, if the expectation of iambic rhythm has been set up then there is no question that "you" would be read as a stressed syllable. You can leave it exactly as it is.

freeand2sexy
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Posts 704
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30 posted 2009-02-19 04:36 PM

okay good, now I just need to keep the story or theme or message consistent throught the 50 lines(I'm honestly not sure what it is so far, I think it's a story)

And um, so far I don't think my problem is the meter, but I'm going to keep trying to get this blank verse down.

(got 21 lines down, but confused on where I'm going with this story.)

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

Falling rain

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Posts 2178
Small town, Illinois

31 posted 2009-02-19 05:18 PM

Sadly to say I can't use the uppercase, lowercase thing. Its sorta hard for me to do words like that who are more then 2 syllables. Otherwise I get confused. Haha

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

32 posted 2009-02-19 05:38 PM

Christine

Keep going! Don't worry too much about the content at this stage - it's quite hard to do fifty lines of anything.

Maybe when you've completed and posted them, and we've discussed what you did, you would like to have a go at something more challenging in iambic pentameter - a villanelle perhaps! With this in mind I'll set you on a treasure hunt: see if you can find on the net two of the most famous villanelles ever written - one by Dylan Thomas and one by Elizabeth Bishop. Let me know if you find them! You do all this simultaneously with writing the blank verse of course - but then ladies are meant to be good at multi-tasking, no?

Have a nice evening!

Zach

Don't give up just yet.

You really do need to HEAR the way syllables are stressed in order to understand meter.

For instance when you say the word "Dolphin" which syllable do you think has the most emphasis, the "dol" or the "phin"?

Back tomorrow.

M

freeand2sexy
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33 posted 2009-02-19 05:53 PM

Ooh, Ooh, I love villanelles!

Oh, and I can multi-task with the best of them, I'm doing it right now, too.

And just so you know so far what I have written sounds like a monologue, which I think is okay, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

(got 25 lines down, 25 to go)

yes! halfway there.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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34 posted 2009-02-19 06:12 PM

The most famous villanelles I believe are,

"Do not go gengle into the good night" by Dylan Thomas

and

"One Art" by Elizabeth Bishop

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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35 posted 2009-02-20 03:35 AM

Morning Christine

Yay to halfway. And a monologue is absolutely fine.

Good work on the villanelles too.

Do you like them? Which of the two do you prefer, and why? Do you have any views on what the poets were trying to say, and more particularly why they might have chosen to use the villanelle form to say it?

M

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36 posted 2009-02-20 03:37 AM

Zach, not sure if you saw this - I should've posted in a seperate reply.

Don't give up just yet.

You really do need to HEAR the way syllables are stressed in order to understand meter.

For instance when you say the word "Dolphin" which syllable do you think has the most emphasis, the "dol" or the "phin"?

M

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37 posted 2009-02-20 04:27 AM

Yes I liked them, I favored "One Art" because well I had read it before and understand it better.

I think the other poem was about not giving into death or something like that, I'm not sure.

I'd tell you what "One Art" means but I would be cheating 'cause I read something awhile ago telling me what it meant.

Oh and I have 51 lines now but I'm still working on it a bit.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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38 posted 2009-02-20 04:34 AM

oh and I think they used that form because of how the message was to be read, depended on the refrain that villanelles depend on.

I think that made sense

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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39 posted 2009-02-20 04:41 AM

Oh, and I'll let Zach know about you replying here, haha I bet he's sleeping right now, like should be..

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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40 posted 2009-02-20 05:36 AM

Yes Christine, you are right all the way. I like One Art too, especially the brilliant and poignant ending. Though Thomas has a wonderful way with sounds that the villanelle brings out because of the repetition.

This is a good resource on One Art:
http://www.english.illinois.edu/Maps/poets/a_f/bishop/oneart.htm

Sounds like great work on the blank verse.

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41 posted 2009-02-20 05:56 AM

I'm almost finished, I hope I did it right it took me all day off and on yesterday, and I guess about three hours today,since its almost 3am where I am. I should really sleep, but I could always sleep in, I guess.

I have about 60 lines. I'm afraid that the begginning and end are not that good, but for some reason I like the middle.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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42 posted 2009-02-20 06:40 AM

I'm now official done with my blank verse and gonna go to sleep for 2 to 3 hours then post it in CA

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

[This message has been edited by freeand2sexy (02-20-2009 07:20 AM).]

Falling rain

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43 posted 2009-02-20 08:13 AM

Good morning moon and Cristine,

I say it dol-PHIN.. This prolly incorrect but I just woke up 5 mins ago so my brain might now be flowing.

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

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44 posted 2009-02-20 09:00 AM

Ok Zach - perhaps I picked a bad one, this may be a US UK anomaly. I'll have to ask Christine what she thinks.

Christine - dolphin?

Meantime Zach perhaps if we try another one or maybe two, how about:

kitchen

and

killing

Can you do those for me please.

Cheers

M

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45 posted 2009-02-20 12:40 PM

Well its not that I don't understand it. (Although I think that might play a part in this) Its just I learn through verbatum. I can hear a word and then pronouce it, unlike reading it.
The whole stress is confusing to me.

Also there is a different between "needing" and "wanting" to learn it. Sure I want to but I see it as too difficult for me to accomplish so I give up. See my problem? I pratically just screwed myself over huh?

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

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46 posted 2009-02-20 01:17 PM

Zach

It's not too difficult.  It's already in you, in the sense that if you can speak! you already speak in a natural and correct stress pattern.  There's nothing artifical about it.

All you have to do is learn to listen to yourself.

Listen to the way you pronounce words.

Can we take this a step at a time.  We'll just see if we can get you hearing the pattern of normal speech first.

When you say "killing" you don't say:

kill ING   you say   KILL ing

Perhaps it would help to talk out loud and practise a few sentences in a sing song voice putting more loudness and force on the syllables I type in UPPERCASE and talking more quietly and less forcefully on those in lowercase.

So here we go, try this:

the CAT was KILL ing ALL the MICE

as you speak it say the lowercase softly and the uppercase with force nodding your head forward to each STRESSED syllable like you were nodding to a drum beat.  You could also hit the desk with the flat of you hand on each STRESSED syllable.  Try to get a rhythm going.

Now another one:

a boy is writing many things about the world

a BOY is WRIT ing MAN y THINGS a BOUT the WORLD

And now a few lines:

is sheila frightened by the monster fish
or will she shoot the gun in time to stop
the shark from biting through her father's leg

is SHEI la FRIGHT tened BY the MON ster FISH
or WILL she SHOOT the GUN in TIME to STOP
the SHARK from BIT ing THROUGH her FATH er's LEG

You should be building up a nice da DUM da DUM rhythm, nodding your head forward on each stressed beat with a forceful emphasis on each beat.

Now hopefully you will be able to hear the pattern.

Is it working for you?

m

freeand2sexy
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47 posted 2009-02-20 01:35 PM

Well for me I get, DOl phin, but as I was saying it over and over it sounds as like you could say it both ways, we do live a whole 4 tof 5 states away from each other, I don't know if that makes a difference.

Zach,
I think your using the word verbatim, wrong, but I get what your saying,if someone could show you the stresses verbally, it would be a whole lot easier, my suggestion is to get a dictionary and there your can see where the stress is, where it's accented that's where the stress is. Just practice with any word you think of then look in the dictionary! It's kinda like a cheat sheet. Just don't get into a habbit of looking straight into dictionary, it's much more rewarding, once you understand it all on your own.

Don't give up Zach, you'll get it!

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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48 posted 2009-02-20 03:36 PM

I pronounce it DOL phin I think, but it wasn't a brilliant example.

Yes I picked up on what Zach was saying Christine, which is why I am trying to ask him to do the excercise of kinda chanting (see above). But it would be much easier if he could hear rather than only read.

But like Christine says, don't give up Zach, try reading out loud over and over the lines I suggest a couple of posts back, it will suddenly come to you!

M

Falling rain

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49 posted 2009-02-20 04:40 PM

Okay so I read what you type out for the exercise. And after a long day I tried saying it again. Except I sang it out instead. Like...

"is SHEI la FRIGHT tened BY the MON ster FISH?
or WILL she SHOOT the GUN in TIME to STOP
the SHARK from BIT ing THROUGH her FATH er's LEG?"

And as once as I sang it out loud and gave more emphasis to the uppercase letters I could hear the da,dum,da,dum's.... Only problem is that I don't know how I would be able to write that into my poems..? Help anyone?

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

moonbeam

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50 posted 2009-02-20 04:59 PM

Ok Christine.

Before you tackle this next horror

you need to think carefully about what you are writing and why.

You've demonstrated you can handle iambic pentameter and now you'll have to do it adding rhyme and not just any old easy rhyme scheme either.  You need to think carefully about end rhymes, because, as you know, a villanelle demands many words which rhyme together.  Rather than send you off to just do this thing, if it's ok with you I'd like to discuss it with you step by step.

So before we start we need to consider a few things - or you do.  First of all have a think about the poems of Thomas and Bishop.  What do you notice about the "argument", or should I say - the way in which each poem develops its theme.  Do you see how in both poems the poets start off with some statements of a fairly, shall we say "general" nature.  Thomas discusses the way different types of men react to death and Bishop tries to make a joke almost of the various ways you may lose things.  However as each poem draws to a close the significance of these general observations suddenly becomes clear because both poets zoom right in on the personal - something very close to their hearts.  In Thomas's case the death of his father, pleading with him to follow the example of the men he has described and rage and fight against death.  Bishop's poem is perhaps even more poignant as it suddenly focusses on the loss of a loved one seeking (and failing) to make light of THAT loss in the same way as the others she has described.

The structure of the villanelle lends itself to this move from hypothesis to conclusion, and I would like you to try to do something similar in yours if possible.  It may be best to begin by thinking about the ending.  What issue or event will be addressed in those final 4 lines?

You then need to start considering the refrain lines.  How you will use them.  Think about the need for them to be VERY strong lines.

Finally tonight you could start thinking about the two rhymes.  For heavens sake choose something easy!

I wanna have some hair left after this yanno!

I would prefer you not to start actually writing the poem for a day or two. With any serious poem you ideally need to have a clear idea of what you want to say, but with a villanelle you really do need a proper plan of action and preferably a short prose note roughing out the thinking behind the poem before you begin.

Like I say, I think I will be able to help you write a good poem by taking this stage by stage rather than you just trying to write something straight off. If you don't want that, that's fine,

or if you feel uncomfortable doing it here in public we can move to e-mail for a while if you want. It's up to you.

Got to go get some sleep.

Later.

M

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51 posted 2009-02-20 05:11 PM

Ok Zach - well done hearing the beat!

It helps in your poems for the reasons I said in the reply I gave on your recent poem.

It doesn't just help it's ESSENTIAL !!

Keep that da DUM thing in your head and try and create other lines of your own that sound that same da DUM rhythm.

Tell ya what. Go look in CA at Christine's blank verse poem. The long one! Read it with that same da DUM rhythm. It should be easy as the whole poem is written da DUM !

When you've done that see if you can write a few lines of your own in da DUM rhythm (or imabic rhythm as it is called).

Any old thing will do, like:

the CAT is ON the MAT - see easy!

you try it when you come back from reading Christine's poem. Keep the da DUMs going in your head listening all the time for the rising and falling beats of the words. Here's another:

in KEN ya TI gers GROWL

(in Kenya tigers growl)

or:

some GIRLS are HARD to UN der STAND

and on that very true note I'm going to bed!

M

freeand2sexy
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52 posted 2009-02-20 05:20 PM

Okay, I'll just think for awhile, which is good for me, 'cause I have a mental illness, I have to finish a poem in the day I start it, otherwise, I won't(more like can't)go to sleep. It's bad, I know. I haven't found a cure yet, if there is one. That's why I was up till 4 am today finishing the blank verse

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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53 posted 2009-02-21 03:29 AM

Ok Christine that's fine - no pressure!

You need to try and cure yourself of the poem in a day thing tho or you'll either wear yourself out or seriously affect your chances of writing good poetry.

My suggestion would be to perhaps break the tasks of writing a poem down, and think of each task as a "poem" or small project.

So day 1 you complete your thoughts on what the poem is about and write a short prose piece describing it.

Day 2 you work on the refrain lines trying to come up with two really good ones.

Day 3 you start writing, but don't feel pressured - maybe treat each stanza as a poem in itself so you do a stanza a day or something.

There's nothing to stop you writing other poems at the same time if you want to finish something in a day.

M

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54 posted 2009-02-21 09:28 AM

Zach- I'm practically as stuck as you are. Except, my accent drives me nuts!!! I can't even get some of the syllables right because I say words wrong as it is...

I think I understand most of the stressing though... And please don't give up cuz if you do than I'm likely to...

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55 posted 2009-02-21 03:10 PM

Okay I'll try my best, but it really isn't pressure, it more like excitement, writing gives me adrenaline, and I can't help but want to keep going till I finish, but I'll do my best to break down the tasks in 2 to 3 day.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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56 posted 2009-02-21 04:53 PM

You're doing good Christine

. I was sort of joking about the pressure thing - but yanno I am anxious not to try and make you do stuff you don't want to do!

Anyway the blank verse was a new thing for you, and you did just great. So maybe slowing down a bit on the writing of a poem might help too. Plus there is nothing to stop you writing lighter and easier poems while you are working on a more serious one. To be honest at any one time I can be working on up to 20 poems, although I use the word "working" rather loosely.

Glad you get excited about writing though - that's a good sign.

M

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57 posted 2009-02-21 05:17 PM

Oh, okay, and about what you wrote that I should do on the 1st day, I'll try, but it will be the first time I think about what write before I actually write. I think that might actually be the hardest part for me.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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58 posted 2009-02-21 05:44 PM

Christine

I'm not saying that's how you should ALWAYS write a poem.  Some poems, usually short ones, just come to you - often from chance things happening to you; others you start off having no clue why you are writing what you write and the meaning and purpose become clear later; yet others you might start off writing the ending (I often do that).

Also, just because you think about what you are going to write and write a short prose plan beforehand, it doesn't mean you have to stick to it. Maybe when you start to write the poem will veer off in an entirely different direction.

The reason I'm suggesting that you plan this one is firstly that I suspect a good villanelle was never written without some planning, and second it will do you good to write in a different way to the way you usually do. Believe me, there is no such thing as experimenting too much when you are learning how to write.  It's all good practice, and if you don't try it you'll never know.

Now what's this villanelle going to be about?  Remember what I asked you to try to do?  Emulate DT and EB - try and move from the general to the specific.  Perhaps some general stanzas about an aspect of human behaviour, and then finishing by zooming in on how that behaviour has affected you personally.  The behaviour could be things like, love, betrayal, dishonesty, kindness etc etc ... anyway I don't want to distract you with my ideas, you must try and figure something out yourself.

Have a good evening.

M

PS When I said "you personally" I mean of course the speaker in the poem.  The speaker doesn't have to be you, and even if the speaker is the first person (I) you don't have to tell the truth as long as you tell the truth!  What I mean is you can of course make things up provided you are true to your feelings. I think I've confused you enough for one day.

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59 posted 2009-02-21 07:54 PM

Hey Moonbeam and Christine, Would y'all mind if I cut in and worked with this as well? I've found a bit of spare time at last and would love to use it to work on my writing. Maybe I could begin with the IP assignment? Please!

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60 posted 2009-02-21 08:06 PM

Moonbeam, I understand, most of my poems, though in 1st person, are not about me, so no you didn't confuse me.

Michaela, I think it would be good for you to start that assignment as long as you understand where the stresses are and where they are not otherwise it would be pointless

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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61 posted 2009-02-21 08:16 PM

Ha! I'm getting it. Slowly and possibly wrong, but I need this even if it is futile y'all can at least point out where I'm messing up.

freeand2sexy
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62 posted 2009-02-21 08:22 PM

well, okay, I guess, I just don't want you to waste your time on 50 lines, if your not sure about understanding Iambic pentameter, but if you are I say go for it.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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63 posted 2009-02-21 08:30 PM

I get how to use it pretty much. I've torn yours to bits by now. I'm probably going to cut it a little short, maybe thirty lines and then repeat the assignment with fifty with I fail miserably. It will take me more time than it does you though. I can't put that much time into mine in twenty-four hours as you did.

freeand2sexy
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64 posted 2009-02-21 08:34 PM

Don't worry about time, you should take as long as you need, I just happen to have an illness I'm trying to cure. I was up till 3am, and I wouldn't suggest that you do that, it mest up my sleep.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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65 posted 2009-02-21 08:51 PM

Ooooh, yeah I can't do that. I have a psycho mom that would be soooo mad if I did. She doesn't approve of me focusing on anything so I'll probably in trouble for taking this much time out for poetry as it stands.

So when I do finally complete the lines should I post it on this thread or start a new one in this forum?

freeand2sexy
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66 posted 2009-02-21 08:58 PM

Start a new one on either this forum or in CA, but keep in mind that in CA you will get more critiques from others. So it depends on whether you want them critiquing the content as well as the meter.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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67 posted 2009-02-21 09:00 PM

Hmmmm, good question. I'll read it when I'm done and decide then.

moonbeam

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68 posted 2009-02-22 04:11 AM

Hi Christine and Michaela

Yes, no problem Michaela I'd love to look at your IP effort.  I'd agree with Christine though, if you are still a bit hazy on IP try posting maybe 15 - 20 lines and we'll look at those first, make sure you are doing ok, and then move on from there to 50 or even 100!

Perhaps initially it would be better to start a new thread here.  In CA people will focus on the whole poem, and you may get comments that aren't really relevant to what you were doing, i.e. just practising IP.

Later, when the poem's knocked into shape, you can always post it in CA for wider critique.

All the best, and good luck.

M

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69 posted 2009-02-22 04:33 AM

Hi moonbeam,

I think I have an idea of what I want my villanelle to be about, but still a lil hazy on the specifics, so I'm still working on that.

Anyways, I'm a bit curious as to what your actual name is, since you know all of ours, I'd like to know yours if you don't mind.

And I'd also like to say Thank You!!! I'm not sure why your helping us so much, but I appreciate it, we all do.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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70 posted 2009-02-22 06:42 AM

My actual name is Rob, Christine

Not sure if I'm helping much lol, but thanks anyway.

I'm trying to help for several reasons. First I'm bored of the Alley

- that's the least inportant reason. Second I have a bit of spare time. Third I love to try and help people who are receptive to new ideas, specially when they are starting out writing. Young people are often more receptive than older ones. Fourth I love discussing poetry. Fifth there are so so many "poets" who start off writing kinda angsty teen poems (no offence) which is fine, but then they never progress from there their whole lives. That may be fine for the vast majority of people (check out Open

), but sometimes there is a guy or gal out there who has it in them to be the next Carol Ann Duffy or Seamus Heaney - once, just once in my life I'd like to help someone on their way to achieving that. That would give me a lot of pleasure. So you see it's purely selfish really!

Does that make sense?

freeand2sexy
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71 posted 2009-02-22 07:04 AM

yeah, it makes sense, I think, I'll have to check again in 4 hours, since I'm not completely here at the moment, it's 4am in Cali. I made a huge mistake at starting to redo and fix my last poem "my home, my grave" yesterday evening, I probably should have started today instead of yesterday, I think what I just said made sense, but I'm not sure.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

freeand2sexy
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72 posted 2009-02-22 07:16 AM

Oh I forgot I have a question, is imperfect rhyme okay or am I better off avoiding it?

See in my poem I rhyme 'soul' with 'home', and I think that is called assonance or is that cosonance? no I think its assonance, well whatever I'm just wondering if it's okay

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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73 posted 2009-02-22 08:45 AM

quote:
Oh I forgot I have a question, is imperfect rhyme okay or am I better off avoiding it?

See in my poem I rhyme 'soul' with 'home', and I think that is called assonance or is that cosonance? no I think its assonance, well whatever I'm just wondering if it's okay

Like all things in poetry everything is ok!  (If you know what you're doing that is).  Free verse of course makes use of internal (i.e. not line endings) rhyme and slant (imperfect)  rhyme all the time.

In more formal writing such as sonnets it's fine to use slant rhyme but usually you should have a plan!  (You'll be tired of hearing me say that soon, lol).  In other words if you start off using slant rhyme in a formal poem you might use it for the whole poem, or perhaps you'll do every other rhyme as a slant rhyme, but aim for something regular - something that looks like some thought has gone into it instead of just used because you couldn't think of anything else!

Yes "soul" and "home" are assonantly related - though not perfectly because the "o" sound is a little different.  But it's close enough to be slant I think.  Assonance is when vowel sounds match, and consonance when consonants match.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assonance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_consonance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliteration

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74 posted 2009-02-22 02:20 PM

I have one quetion about the rhyming in blank verse. Is it okay if I use internal rhyme? I know no end rhyme is to be used, but I use internal rhyme a lot without realizing it.

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75 posted 2009-02-22 03:45 PM

Hi Michaela

Internal rhyme usually refers to exact rhymes within a line, e.g.

"The man who wanted more can find it here"

I have also seen the phrase internal rhyme used to mean rhymes near to each other (say a line or two apart) in a poem but again within the line rather than at the end or beginning.

There's no reason why you should not have a few internal rhymes in blank verse especially if they are a line or two apart.

As for slant rhymes they are, imo, not only inevitable, but probably desirable.

M

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76 posted 2009-02-22 03:54 PM

Ok, good. I didn't want to use them if they were going to ruin the free verse. I was finding them hard to ignore though. Christine and I are so lucky to have you helping us.

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77 posted 2009-02-22 04:26 PM

Okay, and I know the difference between assonance and cosonance, I just couldn't think straight before, and I know what alliteration is, as well. Thank you.

(now to find a word that rhymes better with 'soul')

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

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78 posted 2009-02-22 05:18 PM

No prob Michaela, and thanks for the thanks, but really it's me who should be thanking you for listening.

It's "consonance" Christine

How about "mole". Heh. Or try this:

http://www.rhymezone.com/

M

freeand2sexy
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79 posted 2009-02-22 05:25 PM

mole? lol

I got 2 links for rhyming already, but thanks for the third!

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

80 posted 2009-02-22 06:03 PM

Is there anything you aren't good at Christine?

I think I'll go get some sleep. Monday tomorrow. Ugh.

GothicCherry
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81 posted 2009-02-22 06:11 PM

I get on rhymezone a lot but it's not my favorite rhyming site. And why would you thank us for listening? We are the ones who are benefitting.

freeand2sexy
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82 posted 2009-02-22 06:15 PM

No, I'm good at everything (kidding)

Yes, there are a million things I'm not good at, and if your talking about just poetry, I plan to be good at everything I possibly can be, but that will take me years, probably my whole life, but poetry (besides God) is my whole life, so if it takes forever, I'm okay with that.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

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83 posted 2009-02-22 06:58 PM

Hey what about 'soul' and 'control'

here's the stanza,

But now I wonder why the ground must shake
Or why this frightful fear has filled my soul
My life’s discomfort makes these ghastly quakes
And now I’m stuck at home without control

It's either that or

And now I’m stuck here lying on this coal

Ooh ooh, or

And now I’m stuck here with my ugly mole.

I like the last one the best, but that's just me. lol

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

GothicCherry
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since 2008-09-16

Posts 471
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84 posted 2009-02-22 07:06 PM

HaHaHa, I like the first.

Grinch
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Whoville

85 posted 2009-02-22 07:12 PM

Sorry for butting in Rob

Just a suggestion Christine - try “rigmarole”

freeand2sexy
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86 posted 2009-02-22 07:20 PM

Ooh, the stresses are in the right place, but I don't know if the meaning fits so well with what I'm trying to say here.

'confusing sequence of tasks' I'm not sure what that has to do with the stanza or my poem at all. I'll have to see if it could possibly work.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

Grinch
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Posts 2929
Whoville

87 posted 2009-02-22 07:51 PM

A seismic shift within this rigmarole

OK Rob that was it my last interruption - honest!

freeand2sexy
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88 posted 2009-02-22 08:01 PM

It makes some sense, but rigmarole still means ridiculous tasks that are unnecissary, and I'm not sure how that works with my poem, and even if it did I couldn't use this line, because they are your words and not mine. And I feel like that would be cheating, mostly cheating myself.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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89 posted 2009-02-23 05:00 AM

Grinch, you are welcome to butt in anytime of course

Christine,

But now I wonder why the ground must shake
Or why this frightful fear has filled my soul
My life’s discomfort makes these ghastly quakes

(A seismic shift within this rigmarole)

I thought Grinch's idea using "seismic shift" was pretty brilliant in that it picked up on your shaking ground and your quakes. That's what I was talking about earlier: maintaining the metaphor.

I kind of agree with you about "rigmarole" though. It introduces an element of triviality which doesn't quite sit right with the seriousness of the theme. It's way better than "mole" though!

I might be inclined to simply go for:

"A seismic shift that loses all control", or

"A seismic shift that loses me (my) control"

Anyway I also agree with you about not using lines from other people - though when you are learning suggestions can be helpful in promoting your own thought to hopefully higher things.

And shame on you for using "soul"; that's a habit you so need to cure!

M

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

90 posted 2009-02-23 05:04 AM

Michaela

Why would I thank you!?

If you'd spent 10 years writing helpful critiques and suggestions for sometimes ungrateful poets, you'd be darned thankful for anybody willing to listen too.

M

freeand2sexy
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91 posted 2009-02-23 05:19 AM

I didn't know I had a habit of using the word 'soul', but okay, and you didn't meantion this before, so I'm sorry if I'm a bit confused right now.

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

92 posted 2009-02-23 08:09 AM

Christine

Don't worry you aren't confused - you're going to have to get used to my weird Brit sense of humour.

I don't know for certain that you do use "soul" a lot. It's just that in some so called serious poetry circles certain words are giggled at as being very overused (cliche), especially by beginner poets and so called Hallmark poets (the greeting cards). Such words include horrors such as:

soul
heart
stars
moon
beach
shard

But yanno, really you'll see all these words used by published poets - I guess it's how you use them that matters, and to avoid overuse.

Another pitfall that beginners are advised to avoid is overuse of "modifiers". Do you know what I mean by that?

M

Essorant
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Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

93 posted 2009-02-23 01:08 PM

Good to see your metercraft coming along so well.

For the stanza you are working on, I would also mention it often only takes a little adjustment to make the rhymewords perfect:

But now I wonder why the ground must shake
Or why this frightful fear has filled my soul
My life’s discomfort makes this ghastly quake
And now I’m stuck at home without control

Or perhaps:

But now I wonder why the ground thus shakes
Or why this frightful fear has filled my soul
My life’s discomfort makes these ghastly quakes
And now I’m stuck at home without control

quote:
really you'll see all these words used by published poets

Including all of us too, that are published right here at this site

Falling rain

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since 2008-01-31

Posts 2178
Small town, Illinois

94 posted 2009-02-23 01:08 PM

Hey sorry Moonbeam. This whole meter thing is too confusing right now. I just want to focus on syllabic's right now. Take things one step at a time to perfect and get things down. Grinch do you mind helping me with this? Please and thanks.

-Zach

When I see your smile, and I know it’s not for me, that’s when I’ll miss you.

freeand2sexy
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95 posted 2009-02-23 01:42 PM

Modifiers? um adjectives and adverbs I think.

Well I looked over all my poems posted and I only found one with the word soul within the line, but I will admit to using the word heart a lot.

(now to change a bunch of words in my poem, which it going to seem impossible.)

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

96 posted 2009-02-23 04:11 PM

You didn't seriously look back at all your poems! I'm sorry I really didn't mean you to do that.

I guess I meant look forward to future poems. I mean, if I look back at the poems I wrote 10 years ago I curl up in embarrassment. But it's all good - all part of the learning process.

You are absolutely right about modifiers. No doubt if we carry on chatting about your poems the subject will come up again!

Meanwhile are we going to have a go at a villanelle, or maybe something easier to start with?

M

moonbeam

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since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

97 posted 2009-02-23 04:13 PM

That's totally cool Zach. Whatever you feel comfy with. And let me tell you, Grinch is one of the very best poets on this site, unfortunately he's also the most modest!

GothicCherry
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since 2008-09-16

Posts 471
TN

98 posted 2009-02-23 04:39 PM

Lol...

Well, I am most grateful for your help and I 'm sure Christine is as well. Even though you want to thank us. Lol...

Oh, and I will try have that IP assignment completed soon. (I take longer than Christine)

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

Posts 704
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99 posted 2009-02-23 04:47 PM

Yeah I took a glance at them, but it was only 50 poems, took me like 3 min tops, plus I was curious to see if I did over use the word soul, and I'm glad I didn't though I realized I over used some other words, which I'm glad I now know.

I want to work on the villanelle, but I'm having trouble being specific on what it's going to be about, like I've said before, I normally don't plan out what I write I just write. I might need more time, and especially since I'm a little more busy this week, I'm behind in school work and need to catch up, I seem to of put off my work for poetry.

moonbeam

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Posts 2356

100 posted 2009-02-23 05:38 PM

Hey Christine don't worry about timing.  Whenever you have time is fine.

Meanwhile I'm wishing I hadn't said anything about "soul", but now I have I'd better explain a bit more where I'm coming from.

The point is that most poets are chock full of emotion and they just love to and want to convey that emotion onto paper.  The problem is that it's easy to feel the emotion, it's easy to know what you want to say, but it's not so easy to convey it in an interesting manner to other people.  That's where the skill comes in.

What's happened is that over the centuries certain words and phrases have become used in the same way by countless poets to the point where they have lost all their impact.

I daresay that when the first poet to use the word "heart" to mean a deep and meaningful feeling all his readers went "WOW, what an awesome metaphor".

Over the years however the metaphor has become tired.  Sure it still stands for a deep feeling, but it's not specific.  One poet's heart is exactly the same as another poet's heart to the reader.  Sure the poet herself knows her emotional state, but by simply using the cliche "heart" she tells her reader nothing about that actual state at all.

So your task as a contemporary poet is to find new ways to convey the specifics of your speaker's emotions.  And similar considerations apply to the other words I mentioned.

I hope this makes some sense.  I'm a little tired right now, so I might not be totally clear.

M

freeand2sexy
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101 posted 2009-02-23 05:42 PM

Makes perfect sense!

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

turtle
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Posts 548
Harbor

102 posted 2009-02-23 06:10 PM

This is my first time down here to see you guys Hi,

Hi Free,

Think of it as the rhythm of a song. If you can sing it and it carries the same beat all the way through. Then it is probably in meter.

This is trochaic teterameter:

THUMPthumpTHUMPthumpTHUMPthumpTHUMPthump
Life is hard and I am weakness

THUMPthumpTHUMP
Life is hard

See it?

freeand2sexy
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since 2008-09-12

Posts 704
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103 posted 2009-02-23 06:13 PM

Yeah, I totally get it! thanks

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

[This message has been edited by freeand2sexy (02-23-2009 07:31 PM).]

turtle
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since 2009-01-23

Posts 548
Harbor

104 posted 2009-02-23 08:03 PM

Free,

When I started verse I had a difficult time identifying what is a stressed and an unstressed syllable.

Something that helps is to look at the word forms.

If you want, Go here and scroll down to my post that starts "Hi, chopper,"

/pip/Forum28/HTML/002418.html

freeand2sexy
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Posts 704
CA, USA

105 posted 2009-02-23 08:24 PM

Thanks for the help, the but I think I get which syllables are stressed or not, unless you have another reason to believe I don't, which I thought I proved I did in my blank verse in CA (though I did have a few mistakes).

With God I am happy; sadness has no say in my life.

GothicCherry
Member

since 2008-09-16

Posts 471
TN

106 posted 2009-02-23 11:12 PM

Turtle- Thanks for putting that link up here. Christine pretty much knows what she is doing with the stresses, but I'm still a little scratchy so it helped a bit.

turtle
Senior Member

since 2009-01-23

Posts 548
Harbor

107 posted 2009-02-24 07:05 PM

Hi free,

Yeah, It was the "Before" in L2 and the "Waiting alone" in L4

and I thought your blank verse poem was good.

I can be so stupid sometimes......

Sorry Cherry , You're welcome

[This message has been edited by turtle (02-24-2009 09:37 PM).]

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