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| How to Join | Member's Area | Private Library | Search | Sanctuary | Login | |
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| Main Forums | Discussion | Tech Talk | Mature Content | Archives |
A home without a wall, |
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| Feelings |
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Gay |
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TracyStar1155 New Member
since 2002-07-31
Posts 1 |
This is a werid question, and i'm jw "how do u know if ur gay?" |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
Tough question. And if you're young/adolescent, the question is even tougher. There's natural wondering/experimentation/etc. that goes on when you're young when you start recognizing yourself as a sexual being and learning your own body and attached emotions. But my yardstick, anyway, is, do you think you can fall in love and spend your life with someone of the same sex? If the answer's no, you're probably just curious/experimenting, not gay. Of course, that's only one of, I'm sure, thousands of definitions people have. Get ready for others.  Mike Said if I only could ... |
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Dark Enchantress Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258meet Morgana |
When you're attracted to a person of the opposite sex in a way of having a relationship it's physical, emotional, and mental attraction, right? Well it's the same when you're homosexual. If the attraction is purely physical that doesn't make you a gay, lesbian, or bisexual. That just means you're curious and feeling experimental. "if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos [This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (08-01-2002 01:45 AM).] |
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StarrGazer Senior Member
since 2000-03-05
Posts 679Texas |
I cannot offer any technical definitions here, only offer my own comments: If it feels good and right to you it can't be bad no matter what society says... Do what feels right to you. I've known many gay people and it sometimes aggravates me that they have the stigmata of gay attatched to them... they are people just like anyone else and deserve the right to do what makes them happy. If being with someone of the same sex makes them happy - then more power to them. |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
I have had several close friends who were openly gay, and several who chose to live with it as a secret, confiding in a trusted few that they felt safe from judgement with. Every one of them told me they became aware or in tune with the attraction and knew very early on, most of them said in grade school and Jr. High. They all said it was an emotional and confusing time for them, but they still "just knew" deep inside. Each situation of discovery and each persons acceptance of this in themselves is unique. My friends whose familys were supportive and understanding "came out" much sooner than those who had met with disapproval by those closest to them. The ones that lived out their life true to who and what they were, unashamed,& unafraid of who might disaprove, were the ones that were the most emotionally healthy and successful. A lesson for all of us, me thinks |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
I believe there are people who are actually born gay and there are those who choose to be, of course these people can also be bi-sexual. Just like someone who is born with an abnormality (diseases, etc), so are the people who are truly homosexuals. It is an abnormality. However, that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way. [This message has been edited by Opeth (08-01-2002 03:04 PM).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
To define homosexuality as a disease seems fairly narrowminded to me. Contrary to what many people think, homosexuality goes far back in our history, and is not a new thing. There are examples in ancient history of same-same sexual relationships. In nature as well, there are examples of asexual, bisexual, and even transexual species. Being of a different sexual orientation isn't good or bad - it's different. Just as my friend has blonde hair and i have brown, so is one person "straight" and another "gay." Neither is the "right" way to be, nor is one "sick," they are just different sides of a coin that show how diverse a culture can be. |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
Ouch on the abnormality thing! So we're saying that straight people are "normal" now? I missed th' memo.  Mikey, edited for content Said if I only could ... -KB [This message has been edited by bsquirrel (08-01-2002 07:04 PM).] |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
quote: Says who? Who decides for us all what is "normal" and not? |
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Dark Enchantress Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258meet Morgana |
I don't see where the big issue is. But then again, I don't have anything tapping me on the shoulder saying "homosexuality is bad" or "it's just not normal". I think people like that are just narrowminded and ignorant. And no, I'm not sorry if I offended you ('you' being VERY general). Some of the nicest, smartest, funniest, and most interesting people I've met are homosexual. They are just like everyone else and the only thing that is different is that they are into their own sex. I've had a girlfriend and boyfriends and I can tell you that other than the physical stuff and the way people treat you it's the same. My on and off girlfriend is extremely shy and is quick to be offended by other people. Me on the other hand.. people can kiss it if they don't like me for petty differences. Basically.. yes, in some cases it is a choice. In other cases it's not. But either way there's nothing wrong with it. "if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I read Opeth's calling it an abnormality as saying statistically, it is abnormal, because statistically, the majority of people choose (or are born) to be in hetero-sexual relationships. However, one comment I cannot deal with is: 'However, that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.' I hate, hate, HATE!!!! this rationalization. It's not defending the person, or the nature of their behavior, it's excusing it. Like... "So and so can't help it she's black, she was born that way." Or "You know so and so can't be held accountable for that wrong behavior- they were born that way." This is why i will never defend a gay person with "He/she was born that way." It may be true (I'm not really sure) but the implication there is something I cannot deal with. How do you know if you're gay? I don't know... probably when you are not only attracted to members of the same sex, but feel no attraction to those of the opposite. Who is John Galt? |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"To define homosexuality as a disease seems fairly narrowminded to me." ~ Who defined it as a disease? I certainly didn't call homosexuality A disease. "Contrary to what many people think, homosexuality goes far back in our history, and is not a new thing. There are examples in ancient history of same-same sexual relationships." ~ Many abnormalities go way back in history, so what's your point? "In nature as well, there are examples of asexual, bisexual, and even transexual species." ~ Yes, there are abnormalities in nature and other species. "Being of a different sexual orientation isn't good or bad - it's different." ~ Yes, I agree. "Just as my friend has blonde hair and i have brown, so is one person "straight" and another "gay." ~ Your analogy does not work. Having blonde hair is not an abnormality. "Neither is the "right" way to be,..." ~ There is no right or wrong when dealing with abnormalities. [This message has been edited by Opeth (08-02-2002 08:23 AM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Ouch on the abnormality thing! So we're saying that straight people are "normal" now? I missed th' memo." ~ Many "straight" people have abnormalities, however with regards to only their heterosexuality, they are normal. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Says who? Who decides for us all what is "normal" and not?" ~ Says the laws of nature. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"...I don't have anything tapping me on the shoulder saying "homosexuality is bad" or "it's just not normal". I think people like that are just narrowminded and ignorant." ~ Do not confuse ignorance with rational thought. Being abnormal does not make one "bad." "And no, I'm not sorry if I offended you ('you' being VERY general)." ~ Well, you didn't offend me. "Some of the nicest, smartest, funniest, and most interesting people I've met are homosexual." ~ Where is Hush when you need her...This sounds like when people would say...well just substitute "black" for "homosexual." It is all cool. Smile. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"I read Opeth's calling it an abnormality as saying statistically, it is abnormal, because statistically, the majority of people choose (or are born) to be in hetero-sexual relationships." ~ I do believe it is genetic. However, that argument is still open for debate, as many Christians would believe that a homosexual cna change their lifestyle if they accept Jesus as their Saviour. "However, one comment I cannot deal with is: 'However, that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.'" ~ Deal with it. "I hate, hate, HATE!!!! this rationalization. It's not defending the person, or the nature of their behavior, it's excusing it." ~ With regards to being born as a homosexual, that is not excusing it, so I am missing your point here. "Like... "So and so can't help it she's black, she was born that way." Or "You know so and so can't be held accountable for that wrong behavior- they were born that way." ~ Not the same thing, you are mixing the actions taken by a person or a group of persons with the abnormality of being born homosexual. Being born black is not an abnormality. Being held accountable for one's action, whether white, black, homosexual, etc is logical. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
So if homosexuality is not an abnormality, and again, I am talking about those who are born that way as I believe many people partake in homosexual actions that do so only because they WANT to, they enjoy it... Is beastiality okay? Sure, it must be. For who are we to say what is normal. If a man or woman is attracted to an animal, so be it. How about a person who is a pedophile? They should have rights too. Like Janet Marie said who are we to say what is normal? Think about it. You can't have it both ways. If you defend homosexuality as normal, how can you logically believe that pedophiles and those who practice in beastiality are not normal? Please, defend your position...interesting. |
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Duncan Member Ascendant
since 2001-08-07
Posts 5455 |
How about we let this guy keep talking to himself. Kinda fun watchin him dig his own hole...just to fall into it. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'~ With regards to being born as a homosexual, that is not excusing it, so I am missing your point here.' Yes, it is. It's the "they can't help it, they were born that way" excuse. 'that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.' Please explain to me if and how I am misconstruing your statement here- because I definitely read "they can't help it, they were born that way" between the lines here- if that's not what you meant, exactly what did you mean? '~ Not the same thing, you are mixing the actions taken by a person or a group of persons with the abnormality of being born homosexual. Being born black is not an abnormality.' Yes- but keep in mind that there are some people who feel racism and notice behaviors that either are more common, or they perceive to be more common in specific races of people, and they use the same rationalization. For example, a white person in the 1950's or 60's might not hate black people, or want to see them predjudiced against because "They can't help it they're not as intelligent- they're black." That is an observation (albeit and ignorant one) based on behavior. 'Being held accountable for one's action, whether white, black, homosexual, etc is logical.' Why do gay people have to be held accountable for their actions in ways that heterosexual people don't? Yes- they do have the responsibility to tell their partners about any STDs they may be carrying... but in a way, aren't they absolved of a responsibility that heterosexual people have- the pregnancy issue? To my way of thinking, they have less to be held accountable for in that sense... but why did you mention "being held accountable for actions?" I'm not even sure what you mean- what do you mean? 'If you defend homosexuality as normal, how can you logically believe that pedophiles and those who practice in beastiality are not normal?' Homosexuals function, sexually... with consent, in the same way that heterosexual people do. I hesitate to define what is 'normal,' but what about that which is lawful? Homosexual and heterosexual sex are legal, while rape by both groups is a crime- and in the case of bestiality, it is rape of the animal by default (how can an animal consent to sex with a human? I guess one can rationalize that if the animal acts on its own volition, without being physically forced, it is passive consent, and therefore not animal abuse... but a police officer can not receive a verbal response if he/she asks an animal if it willfully consented to the sexual act.) and in the case of pedophilia... most children who are victims are probably forced. Even if a child consents, it doesn't matter-statutary rape. Illegal. Who is John Galt? [This message has been edited by hush (08-02-2002 09:06 AM).] |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
quote: Please do not twist my words to make your assumptions and opinions. Go back and look at my question. I simply asked you who decides what is "normal and abnormal" based on your first reply to this...in one of your above posts you attempt to answer me with a vague "Laws of Nature" comment. Then you come back and attach my name to your pedophile statement by misquoting me and tainting the innocence of the topic question of being Gay by attaching issues like beastiality & pedophilia. This kind of unfair manipulation of the debate is exactly why these subjects cant ever be discussed objectively. But I do so thank you for enlightening me ... here I was afraid this was gonna be just another Jerry Falwell sermon. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Please explain to me if and how I am misconstruing your statement here- because I definitely read "they can't help it, they were born that way" between the lines here- if that's not what you meant, exactly what did you mean?" ~ They can't help it in that it is an abnormality. This is important to realize because many people label homosexuals as deviants, or that they are evil, or that it is wrong to be homosexual, when all of those epithets are incorrect and should not be associated with its abnormality. "Yes- but keep in mind that there are some people who feel racism and notice behaviors that either are more common, or they perceive to be more common in specific races of people, and they use the same rationalization. For example, a white person in the 1950's or 60's might not hate black people, or want to see them predjudiced against because "They can't help it they're not as intelligent- they're black." That is an observation (albeit and ignorant one) based on behavior." ~ I agree. It is a stereotype, and stereotypes are unacceptable. "Why do gay people have to be held accountable for their actions in ways that heterosexual people don't?" ~ You lost me here. I never said they should be. Actions are actions, being born a homosexual is not an action. "...but why did you mention "being held accountable for actions?" I'm not even sure what you mean- what do you mean?" ~ There must be a misunderstanding here, you mentioned about "behaviours" which I took as actions. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Please do not twist my words to make your assumptions and opinions." ~ I did not intend to twist your words, and since you took it that way, I will apologize to you...sorry. "Go back and look at my question. I simply asked you who decides what is "normal and abnormal" based on your first reply to this..." ~ Yes, that was my original intention. Who is to say if one is born sexually attracted to animals that that is normal or not? My answer again would be, "The laws of nature." "...in one of your above posts you attempt to answer me with a vague "Laws of Nature" comment." ~ Yes, that is somewhat vague, but still it is logical. For a man and a woman, by nature, are sexually compatible. "But I do so thank you for enlightening me..." ~ I don't know if there is sarcasm in this statement...the Interent, a whole new way to study interpersonal communication. "...here I was afraid this was gonna be just another Jerry Falwell sermon." ~ Now that guy is narrow-minded. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
I missed this part... "Homosexuals function, sexually... with consent, in the same way that heterosexual people do. I hesitate to define what is 'normal,' but what about that which is lawful?" ~ That is another issue: lawful. There are unlawful sexual acts that can occur between even heterosexuals. "Homosexual and heterosexual sex are legal, while rape by both groups is a crime" ~ Legal, but with different "rights." As for rape, of course that is a crime, no matter if you are heterosexual or homosexual. "- and in the case of bestiality, it is rape of the animal by default (how can an animal consent to sex with a human?" ~ It is? Animals are protected by rape laws? What if a male animal is having sex with a female human...who is raping whom? The point of my bringing up beastiality and pedophilia was to stricly deal with normal/abnormal issue only. A person may be born with various sexual preferences, some legal, some not, however, the norm is heterosexuality, but that doesn't make homosexuality wrong, it only makes it abnormal. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
The problem, of course, is that abnormal is a loaded word. It can simply mean "not typical, usual, or regular," but it also has clinical implications and it most certainly has negative social connotations. Telling someone that "willingly being in the military is abnormal" may be technically correct, but the choice of words also reveals something about the speaker's belief system. Since writers presumably choose their words with care, one might presume there was a reason this one was selected, a reason that goes beyond technical definitions? Hush, you should start a new thread about the assumption of responsibility for personal behavior. At what point, if any, are the actions of the individual no longer the fault of the individual? It's very peripheral to this topic, but DEFINITELY worth exploring. |
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Dark Enchantress Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258meet Morgana |
Me:"...I don't have anything tapping me on the shoulder saying "homosexuality is bad" or "it's just not normal". I think people like that are just narrowminded and ignorant." Opeth: "Do not confuse ignorance with rational thought. Being abnormal does not make one "bad."" I meant it as two separate issues. I don't believe that abnormalities necessarily make a person "bad". I'm really not that black and white I can assure you. I just meant that for many different, sometimes entirely separate reasons people have something against homosexuals. I personally don't have any of those reasons tapping me on the shoulder as I said before. Me:"Some of the nicest, smartest, funniest, and most interesting people I've met are homosexual." Opeth~ "Where is Hush when you need her...This sounds like when people would say...well just substitute "black" for "homosexual."" I just used that to emphasize the fact that homosexuals that I know are just like regular people. (As I said directly after that, but you didn't quote it.) I mean obviously homosexuals are not the only people who have these qualities. I'm not making any excuses for the way people are. You're born with it, you're not. You're damned, you're not. You're abnormal, you're not. Either way - homosexuals exist and as long as it's not hurting anyone psychologically or physically, why does it matter? Now granted, there's the whole issue with AIDS, but even though (from what I know of.. I could easilly be wrong) it occurs commonly in gays it also effects everyone else. I don't know what I'm getting at. I'm sure you all can tell. It sounded okay in my head.. I promise.. Oh by the way Opeth.. I really wasn't trying to offend you or anyone. I know you said you weren't offended but I wanted to clarify. I actually wasn't speaking to anyone directly. I think I was in a bad mood. Who knows. Doesn't matter. "if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos [This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (08-02-2002 07:28 PM).] |
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Anvrill Senior Member
since 2002-06-21
Posts 710in the interzone now |
Awright, here's my bit. Because of the current societal attitude towards homosexuality, a lot of people don't realize that it used to be as common if not as common as heterosexuality. (Well, for men anyway; women were too busy being 'put in their place' to do much else.) Go back to the excess of Rome and Greece. Inter-gender relationships were a trend. All the rich people were doing it, all the smart people were doing it. The military and the Olympians were both encouraged to do it (though the military and Olympians were encouraged to not get near the females, for fear that it would break their concentration or whatever). Back then, men sleeping with men had to do more with status than sexual preference. Their wives/concubines/whatever were asides, but if they messed around with another guy, they were messing around with an equal. The reasoning's oogie, huh? I don't know how it got turned around so majorly. I mean, I know the Brits were really stodgy about a lot of things, but our current society owes a hell of a lot to ancient Greece and Rome. Ah well. Anyway. I don't think you're born into it. I think it has a lot to do with what you've gone through in your own life. If you're a guy who's only ever been left in emotional shreds by girls (be it your family, friends, intimate partners, anything), it would be natural to turn to your fellow males for solace and love. Same with girls who've only ever been hurt by guys. Another thing is if you fall in love with one person of your own sex. Friends for years, suddenly you realize it's not friendship you're feeling. That would really broaden your horizons on the boundaries imposed on love. I've never asked any of the gay guys I've known how/when they knew... But they were flamin'-proud, and all rather hot. And I've only ever known bi girls.One pet peeve I have here... Lesbian chic. Gay men will get beaten within an inch of their life by homophobic red necks. Same red necks will start drooling at the thought of two chicks making out... It doesn't seem at all fair to me! And I don't know any girls who get all hot over the thought of guys making out. They're more like "aw, isn't that so cute?" Anyway, I'm not sure if that rant had any point at all... Just had to babble out my random points of view. The loneliest words you'll ever know: |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I concur with Ron - added to that, you used "disease" as an example. Assuming it was used in a negative manner was my drawn conclusion based on what was presented. perhaps - for me - a better word choice would be common. It's still not too common to find gay/bisexually orienteted people. the reasoning can go in another thread, but one thing that is clear is that these sexual preferences are becoming more and more common as time goes by. again. it USED to be normal (as spoken above) for same sex couples to exits. one might even argue the concept of normality in those cases, as it was culturally accepted. personally, my only problem one way or another is with anyone who is defined by their sexuality. no matter who it is - it's still a person. you don't say "look, there's chris, my straight friend." i'm just a person. so is anyone else. sexual preferences aren't the person, though i see people defined that way all the time. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Okay, I think there's been some confusion on my points about responsibility. Opeth's original post here stated 'However, that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.' I took this to mean "It's not their fault they're gay- they couldn't help it, they were born that way." Opeth tells me that he means they can't help it that homosexuality is an 'abnormality.' (in the strictly common/uncommon sense.) I agree.... but I don't agree that that's what the original statement is saying- Maybe Opeth would phrase it differently if he said it again? I don't know... in my reply to his post, I said: 'I hate, hate, HATE!!!! this rationalization. It's not defending the person, or the nature of their behavior, it's excusing it. Like... "So and so can't help it she's black, she was born that way." Or "You know so and so can't be held accountable for that wrong behavior- they were born that way." ' and he replied '~ Not the same thing, you are mixing the actions taken by a person or a group of persons with the abnormality of being born homosexual. Being born black is not an abnormality. Being held accountable for one's action, whether white, black, homosexual, etc is logical.' Okay- here's where the confusion began. I think he thought I meant that the person in question would be absolved of all behaviors/actions because of the 'abnormality' or default excuse- like "Joe hit his mom, but he can't help it because he was born gay." I meant this excuse system to applied only to the behaviors being criticized, like: "Mia can't help it she speaks in eubonics. She was born black." (this begs the question of why eubonics and blackness are such horrible things.) OR "Fred can't help it he kissed another man- he was born gay." (Again, begging the obvious question of why kissing a man is behavior that needs to be rationalized somehow- it can't be guiltless in it's own right.) My question isn't whether a person stops being responsible for their own actions- it's whether one person has the right to criticize another's actions, and why the people in question have to be defended by getting them off the hook with failsafes like "He couldn't help it" rather than by logic and defense of one person's right to feel romantic and sexual interest to another person of the same sex. After all, logic dictates that if I kiss my boyfriend... then shouldn't Bob be able to kiss his boyfriend? To put it another way- Ron said: 'At what point, if any, are the actions of the individual no longer the fault of the individual?' This is not what I'm discussing at all. My issue is more along the lines of: At what point, if any, are the actions of an individual subject to a)public review and derision b)rationalization of the behavior that causes the derision by those who feel the disdain and c) the denial of the individual to participate in said activities unharrassed by others? Maybe that helps. And maybe I will start the thread... in philosophy. Who is John Galt? |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Homosexuality is abnormal with regards to the genetic process of the creation of life. This statement can be debated by those who believe that homosexuality is based on "choice" - an action by an individual to partake in homosexual acts makes one a homosexual. Many christians, among other religious groups, believe this view over the genetically inherent view. IMO, this abnormality is not "wrong." It is just an abnormality among many other "unwrong" abnormalities: diseases, birth defects, etc. However, as I have previously stated, some people do partake in homosexual activities not because they were born with the abnormality of finding only the same gender sexually appealing, but because they choose to try homosexual act/s. Whether their choice is right or wrong is open for debate. As for people being responsible for their actions, here is my quote for the present time... "This is the day and age when we blame everyone else for all of our problems." People should be held accountable for their actions when such actions break justifiable laws or are detrimental to society. [This message has been edited by Opeth (08-04-2002 04:48 PM).] |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
Where is your biological proof of any particular sexual leanings being an abnormality? Don't just pull statistics from the sky of Common Knowledge -- write them large. Show me actual, medical, scientific proof from varied sources coming to the same irrefutable conclusion: Gay Not Normal. To me, it seems confused for a speaker to claim there is nothing wrong with the other side, and yet state that the other side is a biological abnormality. It's a fracture in thinking. A break from logic. A point where two lines of differing, dithering reason smash into themselves and break apart. By one saying "You're abnormal," isn't the implication "And I'm not. So what's your problem?" |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
hmmmm. Someone correct me if I am wrong (and I KNOW y'will) but I believe the original question did not ask for an opinion poll regarding sexual preference. I believe the question was how to know if you are gay. I did once ask this question of a gay friend, and she answered if you have to ask, then you are not. I recently told this story to a forum friend, and at the risk of ruining my reputation (heh heh) I'm willing to tell a few thousand of my closest friends!  I discovered one night, that a close friend of mine was a lesbian. (Um, that "discovery" was after witnessing her accepting a date with a woman. I was kind of put out and truly surprised. "How come you never told me?" "You never asked." And then, of course, I HAD to ask--"well, how come you never hit on ME?" (pathetic, ain't I?) Her answer? "You are not gay." I asked, "How do you know? I don't even know that for sure." So she kissed me. And then said, "Y'see? You didn't know what to do with your hands." She was right. smiling, and no, it did not affect our friendship in the slightest. And as to whether or not this is normal? I suggest that it is difficult to ascertain normal behavior regarding sexual orientation, as it is a subject that MOST folks regard as "secret." In that particular regard of being "open" about the subject, I guess you could say that I am abnormal. Fine with me. "Normal" people scare the hell outta me. Peace to you. Either way, all will be well. |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
It's always nice to read yr posts, Sen. It gives ocean salt and breeze to the blueness of the screen. Said if I only could ... |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
I would have to agree with most of what Opeth has written....nobody will ever convince me there's anything "normal" about homosexuality....it's not normal, it's sad, very sad. If that were the "norm"...there'd be nobody here to be gay, and no one to write all the lovely poetry....My brother in law, has a master's in psych...and is also "gay" tells me most every single homosexual has another problem...either depression or worse. (including himself), it is not normal, it's a probleml. And Ron has some very good points...in today's society however...just because someone has an abnormality, breaks the law, or is a stalker of young children, or rapes or murders or does anything hideous...this society has tried to make "excuses" for every single thing a person does....'Oh they're born that way, or they had a terrible upbringing, or 'Drugs made them do this' or they just plain weren't in their right mind..Everyone has to make choices, they all have that option, some make bad ones, some good ones, some learn by these choices, some don't..This is sad too...anyone can do anything these days but it's not their fault...it's always somebody elses and they're not to blame...where does that leave the victim...SOL I guess.... [This message has been edited by Toerag (08-06-2002 11:50 AM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Where is your biological proof of any particular sexual leanings being an abnormality? Don't just pull statistics from the sky of Common Knowledge -- write them large. Show me actual, medical, scientific proof from varied sources coming to the same irrefutable conclusion: Gay Not Normal." ~ I don't have the time to perform research for you. Find out for yourself, like I have done(hint - for easy research, go to either Yahoo or MSN, and type "homosexual genetics abnormality"). As for your "irrefutable" remark, you must not of understood my previous reply; there are also those who have introduced other research that may prove the opposite, but I have already stated that fact, so let's not digress. "To me, it seems confused for a speaker to claim there is nothing wrong with the other side, and yet state that the other side is a biological abnormality." ~ I can't help you with your feelings of confusion. The abnormality is a separate issue. The belief of any "wrongness" of the abnormality is debatable. "It's a fracture in thinking. A break from logic." ~ That is your opinion. In my opinion, the "thinking" is quite logical. "A point where two lines of differing, dithering reason smash into themselves and break apart." ~ IMO, I find that statement to be written rather dramatically. By one saying "You're abnormal," isn't the implication "And I'm not. So what's your problem?" ~ No. [This message has been edited by Opeth (08-06-2002 12:16 PM).] |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
If gay is normal...where would life reproduce from?...Common sense is normal too. (Though not all have any) |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"I would have to agree with most of what Opeth has written....nobody will ever convince me there's anything "normal" about homosexuality....it's not normal, it's sad, very sad." ~ I don't think it is sad. "If that were the "norm"...there'd be nobody here to be gay, and no one to write all the lovely poetry." ~ What? The first part of this statement makes absolutely no sense to me. As for the second part, are you stereotyping gay people as writers of lovely poetry? "...My brother in law, has a master's in psych...and is also "gay" tells me most every single homosexual has another problem...either depression or worse. (including himself)," ~ I wonder why? Is it the genetic abnormality of sexual preference or having to live in a society in which persecution for having thoese tendencies exist? "Everyone has to make choices, they all have that option, some make bad ones, some good ones, some learn by these choices, some don't..This is sad too...anyone can do anything these days but it's not their fault...it's always somebody elses and they're not to blame...where does that leave the victim." ~ I agree. All a criminal needs is money and some good lawyers. Look at OJ or Ted Kennedy. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Common sense is normal too. (Though not all have any)" ~ I am not so sure about that. |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
Opeth, Since you refuse to prove to me your point of view with actual documentation (as you're too busy to show me -- funny, I always thought the burden of proof is on the instigator of the conversation ... hmmm), I courteously withdraw myself from this conversation and will let you talk to the wall and your Norwegian metal hereafter. I'm sure all the answers of life can be found there. See ya! Mikey, who is rifely Abnormal with Marfan's Syndrome (look that up, if you will -- I'm too busy to show you ... or care) Said if I only could ... |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Well, you thought wrong. Later. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
LOL...Opeth, I think you just love to argue with anyone and hate bad commercials!!!....It is sad, talk to most anyone with this "abnormality"... Besides, I said I agree with "most" of what you said...I don't think anyone could agree with everything you say about anything, and if they did, you'd argue...LOL.... I'm not stereotyping anyone...but if normal were "homosexual"...we'd definitely have a decrease in population, maybe China needs an influx of gays?....Whatever? You wonder why?....Mostly because most, not all, are very unhappy with their "abnormality"...and yes, persecution has alot to do with it....you're right there. And yes, good lawyers go a long way...I worked for a well known rock band in the late 60's early 70's....we had these "cards" we were told to carry with us...and if we ever got into trouble, drugs or most anything else, we were to call the number on that card and we would be released within 24 hours without so much as a record of being arrested....!!! Money and high priced retainers go a long way don't they...THIS IS SAD TOO!!!...You're a character Opeth...but I do enjoy reading your banter!! |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
lol ~ That is what I get for majoring in the studies of multiple disciplines with a concentration in critical thinking. As a Public Administration Grad student, I still find myself debating people on either side of an argument (especially in political science classes) because I do possess the ability (learned skills) to separate: issues, facts from opinions, logical reasoning from emotional reasoning (rational & irrational), sound from unsound. Also, I can remain almost entirely objective with regards to just about any type of situation. |
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Dark Enchantress Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258meet Morgana |
"homosexuality....it's not normal, it's sad, very sad" Did I read that correctly? Did I? I'm hoping that what you mean is that homosexuality is sad because of the way it is often treated in our society. Sad because of the rejection from peers and sometimes even family when the truth about a particular individual "comes out". I'm really hoping that's what you mean as opposed to a judgment that the existence of homosexuality in our world is sad. About the whole choosing thing.. hell, I don't know. Nobody really can know I don't think. I mean why would someone CHOOSE to be abnormal? Why would someone choose a lifestyle which can be a happy one, but will be laced with pain and rejection? I'm sure there are reasons why someone would (which are probably psychologically based.. it could be anything really), but I really don't think that everyone chooses to be homosexual. Some.. or even a lot of people? Sure. All of them? No. "if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Yep, it's sad that someone has to live like that..and yes, sad because of the way they're treated, and yes, in most cases, sad they CHOSE that path or can't help it.......and it's sad they will mostly all be sad themselves thru out life....I have relatives, friends and associates that are gay, I've met several very famous "rock" stars, that have everything, or means for every "material" thing possible, but are so unhappy and sad that they are not able to change....all of the above...I feel sorry for anyone with problems, yes abnormalties, that involve not being able to live life to it's fullest, family, children, happiness, or whatever makes them happy...if a gay lifestyle makes one happy...more power to them...but I've not met one that can honestly tell me they were happy with their lifestyle...NOT ONE...,.... [This message has been edited by Toerag (08-06-2002 05:27 PM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
I only read up to this point... "I courteously withdraw myself from this conversation..." ...and didn't read the rest of this reply. "...and will let you talk to the wall..." ~ First of all, I am not speaking, I am typing. Second of all, if I am only "typing" to "the wall" then "the wall" has ears because it did reply. "...and your Norwegian metal hereafter. I'm sure all the answers of life can be found there." ~ LOL! What does "Norwegian metal" have to do with any of this matter? I think you threw an apple in the cherry cart. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
groan...I am not a lesbian--but after reading the expressed male sensitivity in this thread, I am certainly understanding the inclination. (Um...with a couple of noticeable exceptions, Mike. ) |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
LOL... I didn't realize that gay people are predominantly unhappy. I guess maybe that's because I only know a few, casually- but I do know a lot of people who have had/continue to have bisexual experiences, and it doesn't seem to hurt them any. I don't really see what the problem is... period. If somebody is gay.... let them be gay. This whole conversation reminds me of a very strongly Christian woman I spoke to recently who said "My best friend's a Muslim (sigh)" the same way she would have said "My best friend had cancer." I guess I just wish people would stop treating lifestyle differences as a sad and unneccessary burden or evil even, but... some people, due to their own lifestyle and beliefs, think this way- and there isn't anything I can do to stop it... except express myself as logically and sincerely as possible... ah well... Who is John Galt? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Just an observation, but I noticed that there are very few happy heterosexuals as well. and Toe? Come here to New Orleans, dawlin'. I'll introduce you to some homosexuals who are happy--with their sexual orientation. I find that their unhappiness is related to a longing for finding/maintaining a fulfilling relationship--hmmm....THEY ARE SORT OF LIKE PEOPLE THAT WAY. Their unhappiness tends to be compounded by a constant struggle for acceptance in the prejudice of certain members of *ahem* polite society. After considering the divorce rate (I'm sure Opeth will be able to quote the statistic) it kind of makes them seem almost human, doesn't it? Forgive the sarcasm, truly. I'm not even actually angry, I just consider a couple of the attitudes here sort of nauseating, and yes...SAD. ah...Mikey? Sometimes there's just nothing y'can say....so this was it for me. I think I'll go bask in someone's STUPIDITY for awhile....lack of intelligence does not bother me, but a hard heart of intolerance DOES. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Well blazing Serenity....I've lived in Nawlin's dahling...and have known many of the trans and homosexuals...met many at Miss B. Raitt's house....yep....I liked EVERYONE I met there except for a few drunk rock stars, didn't question what they did in their bedroom, and could care less...(besides my video camera's not working right now anyhow)....but take the "point' given or disregard...makes no difference...but statistics show very few homosexuals are happy with themselves.....you can blame the cause on attitudes from others, poor self esteem, maybe a religious background that has enforced the idea that it's a sin, I have no idea....I have no ill will towards anyone...particularly those that do what they want, don't force their beliefs on me.....I've fought for my country and the freedom that allows anyone to do anything within the legal limits of the law....and I surely wouldn't take that "right" away from anyone....I don't agree with it, and yes, I think it's sad....but don't have any hate towards gays or even Howard Stern!!!! LOL....Have a great day....now go eat some cajun red beans and rice and chase it down with some Jax beer.....see ya...Toe |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Blatantly off-topic posts are being removed ... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
hugs to ya Toe...smile, I'm surprised we haven't met...New Orleans did not prove too healthy for Bonnie, did it? and yes, I've a wee bit of a temper (which makes the additional fire to my name most appropriate, doncha think?) My concern is for the person who originated this thread, and that is all. I apologize if I lumped you into a category of the insensitive, but please, let's try to keep in mind, that someone asked a question in confusion, and in my opinion, did not need to be intimidated by labels of "abnormality" and the promise of an unhappy life should this person indeed, discover that they are homosexual. now? nuff said? |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Yo Blaze...yanno?...I was kinda thinkin' about the poor soul who posted the original thread and how it kinda got "eaten by the gators" down the replies....see ya [This message has been edited by Toerag (08-07-2002 04:38 PM).] |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
Sorry, Ron. I got carried away. I will not visit this particular thread ever again. It stopped being about the question, and became an Alley ego-match. My apologies. Mike (and hope you're getting the answers you need, TraceyStar1155 ... as this thread is showing, be careful out there, and surround yourself with good friends who understand, either way) Bye. "Oh you've got green eyes. Oh you've got blue eyes. Oh you've got grey eyes." -New Order |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
I've read this thread entirely and I must say I became angrier and agrier till the end. Don't know if 'angrier' is a good word, but I think you get the picture. Here is someone who just wanted to know 'how to know if one's gay', and she didn't get an answer to her question. All she got was a waterfall of pro's and contra's. I can asure you, being a mother of a hetero girl and a lesbian girl: there's no difference in the way they act or in the love they feel for their partners. When I look at both my daughters, I see two happy girls, and I mean happy in every way. I've known from a very early age that my youngest daughter Lynn would come home someday with a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend, long before she herself knew she was a lesbian. I saw it in everything she was. I did not ever try to lead her into the hetero direction, because then she would have become a really unhappy person. The really sad part is the intolerance and denial of the people around. Well not in my country, thank God. In my country homo's and lesbians are considered on an equal level as hetero couples, same rights, same duties. Wether they are born with it or choose to be it, is not of my concern, because it's not important at all as a matter of fact. What matters is if a person can live a life where he/she feels good in. My own mother, who's 90 and grew up in a time that despices gay's, told my girl's partner the first time she saw her: "I've never thought I would get a granddaughter in law, but as you are the choice and love of my granddaughter, you're more than welcome to this family". That's tolerance!!! And she loves her granddaughter in law as much as she loves her grandson in law. I don't think there's an answer to your question TracyStar, or it must be the same answer to the question 'how do I know I'm in love'. For there's no difference in my opinion whether you fall in love with a boy or a girl and when you do...you know. Titia a proud mother of a hetero and a lesbian daughter, proud because they live their lives as they both need to, to be happy. Like scattered leaves...my words will flow |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Brava, Titia, with hugs. I agree profoundly with all you said--and hey? I got angry too...sigh |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
Thank you Serenity Blaze, I needed to vent a little, glad you think the same way as I do. Titia Like scattered leaves...my words will flow |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
"Wether they are born with it or choose to be it, is not of my concern, because it's not important at all as a matter of fact. What matters is if a person can live a life where he/she feels good in." Very well said. We can get mad and argue about this until we're all blue in the faces, but that's what it all boils down to. Who is John Galt? |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Does one possess a "hard heart" if they believe that homosexuality is due to a genetic abnormality? To the original thread starter: How do you know if you are a homosexual? At one time in my life, I believed that people chose to practice homosexuality and that it was wrong and sinful. Then one day in one of my college classes, the instructor introduced a man to us. This man stood up in front of the class and proclaimed himself as a homosexual and asked the class if they had any questions. I waited until after the class ended and asked the guy why he chose this type of lifestyle. He told me that he didn't choose it and asked me if I could remember the first time that I "noticed" the opposite sex. I told him yes, it was in kindergarten, I noticed this girl and found her very attractive, she was different than the boys in that way. He told me the same thing happened to him at about the same age, except it was a boy, not a girl that he had been attracted to. So my answer to you is this. You will know if you are a homosexual if you find the same sex attractive and sexually appealing to you: those feelings of intimacy and love that differs from the love we have for our families and friends. Is it a genetic abnormality? I believe research proves that it is. Does that make it wrong? In my opinion, no. If you are merely curious about same sex relationships, that does not make you a homosexual. You will know in time. Choose your friends wisely and use common sense judgment in all that you do. If you continue to have questions about these matters, find someone dear and close to you to confide in, especially if you ever feel the world closing in on you and there is no escape. Above all else, don't ever feel sorry, ashamed or bad for who you are. Accept yourself and love yourself, for you, like all of us, are unique in our own ways. Sincerely, The hard-hearted-intellectual-one...Opeth. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Well said Opeth....(can't believe I totally agree with you this time..but I do, and you're a Navy rascal too!)The world must be coming to an end????? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*smiling at Opeth* oh and you too, TOE...geeez.... Thank you for addressing TracyStar's question. I do not object to a difference of opinion yanno, there was just a not-so-subtle aura of insensitivity that seemed to be offending even my not-so-delicate sensibilities. I wanted to add my well wishes to yours for TracyStar. And Trace? grin, if ya learned nothing else from this thread, know this: "No matter which way ya go? Just PLAY NICE."  (serenity exits, doing the cha-cha...) |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Well said Opeth....(can't believe I totally agree with you this time..but I do, and you're a Navy rascal too!)The world must be coming to an end?????" lol... ~ Clinton forced the homosexual issue on the Armed Services back in 1993. I think the resulting policy, "Don't ask, don't tell" is overall an effective policy. I don't believe a person should be kicked out of the navy because they are a homosexual, but I do think it should remain a private matter for the sake of unit cohesiveness, especially when serving aboard naval ships. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Opeth, I can't remember where I read it, it was several years ago...There were issues involving restrooms, dressing rooms, not only in the military and barracks, but also in public. The don't ask don't tell thinggie does seem to be working....if not, it's not going public that I know of... |
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MidnightSon Member
since 2002-05-15
Posts 312between the gutter & the stars |
tracy....at the risk of being redundant, you will know. you go with what makes you comfortable. everyone does. that's why i drive a comfortable gas guzzler instead of an economy car. you stick with what keeps you at ease, from clothes to cars to hair color to sexuality. and to the debate... well i only say the same thing. people will go with what they're comfortable with. against nature, abnormal, moral, immoral, illegal, intrinsic.... does it make a difference in the end? it doesn't. people are going to do what(who) they want to do, sooner or later. just make sure you do the things you want for yourself, not beacause someone told you it's supposed to be one way or the other. _______ i just read ron's suggestion for this topic on another post.... at what point, if any, are an individual's actions no longer the fault of the individual? i gotta say never. there's always a choice. though the options may not always seem desireable, there's always a choice and we must be willing to accept responsibilty for them. otherwise we'd become a society of prozac/ritilin users that commit crimes and blame our non-hugging parents for our actions, pleading for rehab in place of incarceration... god forbid it's our struggle for identity that leaves us all unknown [This message has been edited by MidnightSon (08-16-2002 07:41 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*smiling* "that's why i drive a comfortable gas guzzler instead of an economy car." *chuckle* *snort* (serenity exits, biting her fingers in restraint at the analogy...)  |
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MidnightSon Member
since 2002-05-15
Posts 312between the gutter & the stars |
LOL *shakes head* any backpeddling would only deepen the hole. ty for the smile this morn, serenity. [This message has been edited by MidnightSon (08-17-2002 07:49 AM).] |
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