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Brad Majors
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0 posted 2003-02-06 02:57 PM



America
When will you grow up?
leave the bully on the playground

America
Will you tell us the truth?
that you created the very evils
that now cost our lives
or are we expendable like them

America your hands are so bloody
stained
you can't hide it anymore
like pilate before Christ's execution
trying desparately to wash off
the guilt
there are no men in white hats
I don't believe in a democracy
that only works for the criminal

America
can you even recount the evils
done in the sacred name
of democracy?
Pol Pot's reign of terror
Noreiga's corrupt govenment
trained Sadamm Hussien
-thats how we know he's lying
Bin Laden and the Taliban
just to name a few
Did you remember when Castro
asked for assistance from the great
Uncle Sam
we ignored them
so they became communist
then we hated them for it.

America wake up
people tried to warn you about 9/11
but did you listen
pleading invincibility
as the planes crashes again and again
then acting surprised and outraged
or is there more to the story
was it like the reitchstieg fire
a means to an end

America you cried
prayed
atheiests even shuffled into churches
for the first time
flags sales were staggering
i wonder how the Japanese Children
felt the instant before
they were vaporized
only shadows remain burned into cement
which is the greater evil?
What really is a terroist?
What is an axis of evil?

Christ said
if you are to take the speck out of your
brother's eye
be sure to take the log out of
your own eye
America your seqoyia needs pruning

America
how can I believe in you
wave your flag
sing your praises
when you lie to me
and use those lies
to take my freedoms

America
I don't vote anymore
electoral college
flordia
confirmed my suspicions

America I am using my
last freedom to write this
-if that still exists
..knock knock
FBI
can we speak to you?
mr mauro we know
you are in there
(silenced forever)

© Copyright 2003 Dan Mauro - All Rights Reserved
Susan Caldwell
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1 posted 2003-02-06 03:02 PM


I am not sure what to say.  If the "man" takes you away can I have your computer?

Susan C.

garysgirl
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2 posted 2003-02-06 03:13 PM


Brad, I don't know what to say, either, except that
I truly love the United States Of America!!

El_Campeador
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since 2003-01-29
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3 posted 2003-02-06 03:17 PM


I would hope that America is not that bad yet. Maybe it is, though. It is hard to tell at times... But maybe it is our duty to bring it back to the foundation that it started on.

“We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we can find in our travels is an honest friend.” –Robert Louis Stevenson

Brad Majors
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4 posted 2003-02-06 03:17 PM


This kind of came out. Its partially inspired by america by ginsburg with my own ideas. I think america is a great country its just that our goverment isn't as fortcoming as they should be and america is overly idealized which has got into trouble more then once
Aenimal
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5 posted 2003-02-06 03:44 PM


Agreed Brad brave write, and before people come down on you I think its time as you have, that people realize that yes it is a great country. But to ignore the problems and the views others have of it only leads to further trouble. And this goes for all the Western powers..
regards2you
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6 posted 2003-02-06 04:08 PM




I am really gritting my teeth here not to say things for which I'll get censored.

So, it is only a poem.

Curious if you are an American?

You think this democracy only works for the criminal. Tell that to all the black men locked up, whose equal in crime white man (I am caucasian by the way) isn't!  You have no rights?

You had a right to publish this poem!

Which freedoms did America take from you?

Even if all you are saying might be true do you honestly believe there would be no terrorists and other countries who want ours, ever?????

And, they would not be willing to do anything and develop any and all weapons possible to have it? And, anilate every American in their wake?

Are you that naive????

You are saying we provoked and 'made' them!  THEM, who wouldn't KNOW God if He was floating in their soup.

What political office do you hold. Or, the people yesterday with all the poems for peace? None. Not one!

None of what you said changes the situation now, but you have a right to say it, though I feel it slaps vets and active service men and women in the face...it seems non-supportive...
hopefully it isn't and I should go re-read it again.

The reality is I choose not for my children, neighbors, mailperson, politician...to get anthrax in the mail, be bombed with our own airplanes, sprayed from a crop duster with one of many poisons, or have a nuclear bomb dropped on Washington and other strategic cities...

And, it would be great if our servicemen didn't have to go through such (poisonings) and we know they most likely will, imminently.

How do you think America got to be America.....way back ~when~....not by peace rallies....but by bright red blood!

You think Huessan would be innocently running his country with no evil thoughts! Look what he has done to his own countrymen!!! You amaze me!

I will always be proud to call myself an American and salute and hang my flag.

At this point in time, I hate seeing this kind of poem, mainly because of all of our veterans and all the serviceman in active duty, I feel it slaps them in the face. Because it is YOUR democratic rights they are and have fought for...and will be giving up their lives and limbs and lungs for. YOU!

I am sure I'll be sorry for spouting off!

I am feeling very patriotic with all going on. Now, I think I shall go hang my flag back up which only came down due to weather, ever since 9-11.....

Pat
  

..without surrender, be on good terms with all persons..
        "Desiderata"

Brad Majors
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7 posted 2003-02-06 05:01 PM


alright I'm sorry about causing such an upraor. I think our servicemen do a wonderful job and its our goverment or at least our present leader that this is towards. I am sorry. But if we don't have opossing viewpoints then we wouldn't have world
regards2you
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8 posted 2003-02-06 05:25 PM




Brad,

And, I am equally sorry. I suspect you are one fine, patriotic American (?)....I am also equally as frustrated over the Florida fiasco...and all the other 'politics' which caused much of our problems, though I still think we would have to defend ourselves sooner or later.  Can you imagine how the Naive American Indian felt, though? How ruthless was that, before there was an America!!! Times change, countries change and I hope we can hold onto America, as we know it, with all it's deficiencies, it is still a good place to live, because we are ~free~ if for no other reason...as I am sure you do, too. This will probably knock some socks off, but my opinion is we should have nuked a couple countries way back when....and we would not have this problem, now!
I can feel the eggs and tomatoes already. And, you or others might say, well what about the people of the country nuked?  I'd be very sorry for those who live in a country, nuked...but, I'm gonna be sorrier for the United States of America when we are....and it just might be my "fate" for it to land in my area and I'll get crispy fried...Fate has a lot to do with a lot of things....Defense, everything!
  
Warmest regards and respect for your right to your opinion and venting....I feel for you and all of us. Not a pretty place for the entire world right now.... Hugs, Pat
  

..without surrender, be on good terms with all persons..
        "Desiderata"

Brad Majors
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9 posted 2003-02-06 05:44 PM


Never feel bad for disagreeing it is the one thing that makes our country great. I don't want anybody to be mad. I appreciate what the armed services do and it was not intended as a put down to them. The way our government handles things is what frustrates me. No I am not an anti-war person I just wish our goverment was abit more honest. I apologize for the stir
Aenimal
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10 posted 2003-02-06 08:33 PM


"At this point in time, I hate seeing this kind of poem, mainly because of all of our veterans and all the serviceman in active duty, I feel it slaps them in the face. Because it is YOUR democratic rights they are and have fought for...and will be giving up their lives and limbs and lungs for. YOU!"

Jesus Pat I'm sorry but how dare you put this on Brad! He was CLEAR in stating his love for his country and felt the need to point out that there is an ugly side that needs to be addressed. It's this see no evil attitude that causes the very problems he addressed in his poem. And then to question him as an American? Why not have him tarred and feathered? Why not instead face these facts and realize the evils, the subversion and lies that governments spew. Yes there are veterans and people going to war and I'm sure more than one of them would also agree that there some of those conflicts could have been avoided.
I can say all this as a Canadian because our lies our the same. The failure of western culture is our feeling of superiority over others. I'm going to end this now before it causes it's own uproar from people who would rather refute the truths and live with an image rather than the real world. I just felt the need defend Brad from that barrage. Brad you should never apologize especially since you were clear in your intentions to not undermine the USA but to create awareness and in a little way help fix it.

regards2you
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11 posted 2003-02-06 10:23 PM


Animal:

It is Jesus Christ, not Jesus Pat.
I don't think you are sorry. I dare to answer this because I didn't overstep my boundaries of this forum and I had an opinion, and there is a box called: Reply.

He was NOT clear in stating his love for his country IN THE POEM AND DIDN'T UNTIL AFTER MY FIRST POST! and his logo has no state or country listed and that is why I wondered if perhaps he might be....Canadian or of another Country, or is he really American???
Cute as he is he could be Spanish or Mexican.

I see all kinds of evil.

He is too damn cute to be tarred and feathered. Although, gotta admit, I do like feathers    

Politicians spew lies; what office do you hold?

so why don't you go live over in Saudia Arabia or (?)...to get away from this superiority. Why the hell would you be part of it, you don't have to you know.

Before Brad's post or yours "causes it's own uproar from people who would rather refute the truths and live with an image rather than the real world."

this poem has been on-line for hours now and I did not notice a line-up at the reply box.

I addressed the real world as it is right now with our loved ones about to suffer horrible deaths, and my opinion is exactly as stated.

I didn't say we all don't agree that some conflicts could be avoided. Let's check with those aboard the Arizona, oops...can't do that...how about those in New  York...oh, I forgot, we made terrorists....our fault....

You defended Brad before I commented.

Don't be condenscending to Brad. Haven't you noticed how highly intelligent he is?

A barrage on Brad. I think he can handle everything I said. I, too, was venting! He looks and seems pretty strong to me. Have you read any of his poetry? He is pretty bright!

If Brad is a gentleman on top of being highly intelligent (and cute) who are you to tell him not to apologize?
He is a big boy! Don't insult him.

You are still mad at me because in one of your poems  you said humanity deserves and has earned more biblical revelations and I contradicted you and said humanity never earned a thing!!!
Not one! Not take care of the earth or it's people, ever....EVER!

I did not say it was his intention to undermine the USA.

How could I address this poem the way I did? Because it is my RIGHT! as long as I do not overstep the rules of this site.

I did not personally attack Brad.

He just wanted to create awareness and in a little way help fix it.

There is no little way to help fix it unless all of you run for office and get elected. But I do not believe the Jimmy Carters would do any better...It takes real guts and difficult decisions and a kind of ruthlessness few have to defend this country and make war and peace.

Brad had every right to post what he did and I have no idea if what he said about the history is accurate, or not, but he doesn't look like he would come on-line and lie about it. I happen to have had an opinion about it, too. Period. Sorry, you don't like it.

What part of my apology did you NOT understand.  If you ask him, I'll bet Brad will explain it to you.

Cordially, Jesus Pat  





..without surrender, be on good terms with all persons..
        "Desiderata"

[This message has been edited by regards2you (02-06-2003 10:32 PM).]

Aenimal
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12 posted 2003-02-06 10:56 PM


"I think america is a great country its just that our goverment isn't as fortcoming as they should be and america is overly idealized which has got into trouble more then once"

First of all he posted this before you ever wrote a thing Pat, and I think it clearly states his feelings for a nation.

"America
I don't vote anymore
electoral college
flordia
confirmed my suspicions"

Second I think these lines in the poem may have been a hint that he lives in america

Politicians spew lies; what office do you hold? so why don't you go live over in Saudia Arabia or..

Third there's that arrogance I speak of, thanks for backing me up on it. If you don't think politicians and governments lie you're truly naive

"this poem has been on-line for hours now and I did not notice a line-up at the reply box."

I'm glad there isn't it proves people here have the brains

"You are still mad at me because in one of your poems  you said humanity deserves and has earned more biblical revelations and I contradicted you and said humanity never earned a thing!!!
Not one! Not take care of the earth or it's people, ever....EVER!"

That is beyond silly, you had your opinion i had mine, it was an exchange. Have I treated you any differently since that excahnge? Wow now you're just reaching lol


Oh and while you're disecting my reply and comments I love that nuke everyone idea. I can hear Yankee doodle dandy in the background as you spout your propaganda. I won't even bother with the rest but suggest you read up on your history and get over yourself. I'll still read your poetry and comment because I like it, you know despite my aparent grudge.

Balladeer
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13 posted 2003-02-06 11:55 PM


Well, after sitting on my hands ever sice reading this, I may as well respond since tact has never been a very strong virtue of mine.

I fully believe that everyone has the right to express their feelings but I can only hope that it would be done with a sense of honesty. This is not simply a poem about how you wish our government were more honest...it is little more than a series of innuendos and cheap shots...

America when will you grow up?

I don't believe in a democracy that only works for the criminal.


America your sequoiya needs pruning


use those lies to take away my freedoms


electral college florida confirmed my suspicions


I am using my last freedom to write this
if that still exists..

Nothing but cheap shots, more appropriate for a grade school dropout than an intelligent person like yourself. You really feel all of your freedoms are gone, Brad? You really feel that our laws only benefit criminals? Please.....


"...and its our goverment or at least our present leader that this is towards"

Really? You speak of Pol Pot, Noreiga, Castro, the bombing of Hiroshima....has Bush been president for that long??? No, it's a slur on every government we have had over the past 5 or 6 decades. I guess none of them could live up to your expectations.

Has America screwed up? Oh, yes, many times. You will get no argument over that but to make the assertion that our freedoms are gone, the governments we have do nothing but lie to us, we deserve everything that happens to us because of our blood-stained hands, that we are as great a terrorist as any because of the bombing of Japan to end a war that would have continued on, killing thousands a day for the duration is going way out of line. Our freedoms are not gone, despite what you may think and America still looks pretty good from where I sit.

"America
how can I believe in you..."

Brad, I don't think America really cares if you believe in it or not. There are more than enough of us who do believe. As I say, I can accept an honest piece of writing displaying a different belief but this isn't one...it's simply a rant for the sensationalism of it.

"alright I'm sorry about causing such an upraor... I don't want anybody to be mad...I apologize for the stir "

If you can't be honest in the poem at least be honest in your replies. The only reason for posting this WOULD be to cause an uproar and stir. To present it as otherwise is unfavorable to you and insulting to us.

Peace..


Ratleader
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14 posted 2003-02-07 12:10 PM


This is not a poem. It's a polemic.

It ought to have been posted in one of the Discussion forums, or perhaps a political newsgroup instead of a forum that's dedicated to poetry.

Everybody needs to sound off from time to time, but this one isn't appropriate here.

garysgirl
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15 posted 2003-02-07 01:16 AM


I STILL
LOVE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
AND AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN.
THERE IS NO GREATER COUNTRY IN ALL
THE WORLD!!!!!!


I don't mean to pour fuel on the fire,
but I felt that I need to say that on
this thread.......

bbent
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16 posted 2003-02-07 03:13 AM


My aren't you the lucky one,kind of like being in the right place only at the wrong time.Someone said ask a vet,go ahead we'll be first to tell you your goverment does lie to you.They rationalize it it as national security and a myrad of other names.They were almost honest enough to create a bureau of misinformation to spread propaganda here and around the world to confuse and hide what's really going on.Guess the idea was scapped after realizing it might show there true colors.Come on now,we never had troops in Laos or Cambodia?Gulf war vets are only suffering from stress?We feed our soldiers speed to keep them battle ready,the same pills outlawed and fobidden to the general populace as dangerous.However it's only on a volentary basis.Maybe it's time America wakes up to the rest of the story.We are the only contry to ever use nuclear weapons on another.I agree it's time to take that tree from our own eye before worrying about the rest of the world.If a poets job is to induce thought and passion,indeed you've done a good job I for one applaude your effort and agree the defense of freedom begins at home.

Live like it's your last day...
Dance like nobody's watching...
Love like you've never been hurt...

Toerag
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17 posted 2003-02-07 07:53 AM


Well...I guess you can talk about America in many ways....some of what you say may be true....but compare it to any other country....ANY!....We've helped or saved most every country in one way or another...How many countries have you seen feed others? How many missionaries and doctors and "well-doers" ...(Americans)..have died trying to help others? How many countries have provided food and medicine and clothing to poor sick hungry children, only to watch them grow up and hate us? And America being the only country to use nukes on another?....You really ought to read about the atrocities the Japanese did to us and our allies....You really should have been in Cambodia or Thailand..or Laos...and why did they lie about us being there...for the same reason we should be lying all the time now, to the news media and other loud mouths that can't keep a secret, so it doesn't cause more deaths to young American soldiers..My opinion is, we shouldn't tell anyone anything...maybe a little article, one liner in the paper explaining how Iraq is hiding biological weapons, then, wake up one morning to find Iraq in flames and under seige...THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE!...Americans in those countries when we weren't supposed to be there, with maybe a dozen other soldiers, with no supplies, no ammo, no way out except thru the enemy that outnumbers you 100 to one, and know you can't get the needed supplies because the Liberal idiots back home won't allow you to bomb Ho Chi trails because the enemy had taken women and children with them as shields so they can distribute ammo and food and weapons to their troops without fear of attack. I thank God they never admitted we were there, if they had, I wouldn't be here. Yep, we're humanitarians towards the enemy as much as possible, at the cost of the poor American soldiers trying to do their job.  So, us dirty, bloody handed Americans need to be ashamed of ourselves. What we've done for France and other countries in the past, has gone without thanks or even support when we needed them. Of course, if we wouldn't have helped them, they'd be under a Nazi dictatorship now and wouldn't have the choice. One more thing though....this rotten country is only one of a very few that you'd be allowed to write this without fear of being arrested....This country has some problems for sure, but it's still OUR country, and compared to most any other..the best this life offers. Nuke them?...Only if absolutely necessary, but I'd rather do it the way I know how...in my sights or with my hands, it's much more satisfying that way...sure, it creates nightmares and bad memories...so does terrorism and loss of human rights and dignity....I have all mine..how 'bout you?

bbent....How do you think Russia or France or Germany would respond if they'd been "911'd?"...How do you think China would have reacted?....Do you truly believe that we, or any country should sit back until countries like Iraq and N. Korea build up a strong dangerous arsenal? Let them strike first with a better inventory? Everyone's entitled to their opinion....in this country anyway...I just don't understand what's happened to intelligent reasoning?

[This message has been edited by Toerag (02-07-2003 08:09 AM).]

suthern
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18 posted 2003-02-07 09:15 AM


Every day, I wage an internal battle between my belief in the First Amendment and my horror at what the blabbermouths on TV are willing to divulge for the sake of ratings. And every day, my decision is that gagging the media or feeding them misinformation (aka lying) is justified if it saves American lives... Our enemies may be soulless, but they aren't stupid... and I'm sure they laugh over the fact that they don't even need intelligence agencies... they can just turn on the TV.

I love this country. I'm aware that it's not perfect but I'd infinitely rather have it and all its flaws than any other place on this earth... It was bought for us with the blood of soldiers... and soldiers defend the Constitution that allows those who don't love it to burn its flag and spit on its soldiers and rant against it... I personally would infinitely prefer that those who don't love it use their freedom to hit the road... for they'd soon learn just how great they had it here.

I can't critique the poetic form of your write... but the content makes my skin crawl.

[This message has been edited by suthern (02-07-2003 09:18 AM).]

Brad Majors
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19 posted 2003-02-07 10:00 AM


I don't do many pieces like this so I am sorry It was taken so badly. If the mods feel it better moved or gone I understand. Please forgive me
Aenimal
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20 posted 2003-02-07 12:14 PM


"Well...I guess you can talk about America in many ways....some of what you say may be true....but compare it to any other country....ANY!....We've helped or saved most every country in one way or another...How many countries have you seen feed others? How many missionaries and doctors and "well-doers" ...(Americans).."

Any other country? Canada? We were a fledgling country but we sent 1 of our 9 million in population to the First and second world war, winning key victories we barely get credited for WW2. We were there in Korea and in many peace keeping missions since like Yugoslavia, Somalia etc. We also ship aid and food to less fortunate countries. Not attacking you Toerag just saying other countries go ignored for their efforts, even during 911 when we offered aid and some of our firefighters rushed over the border to help, Bus didn't think it worthy to mention us in his speech. We're a tiny nation with a huge heart and we get ignored all the time and are hated by default as a US ally. Just saying.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (02-07-2003 12:18 PM).]

Toerag
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21 posted 2003-02-07 03:57 PM


Aenimal....I have no argument with Canada..yes, Canada is a great country, have stood by America thru thick and thin....just remember one thing my friend....I haven't seen Canada "attacked" by any of the verbal abuse lately...not once....I haven't seen Australia attacked verbally....Sure, several countries have done all of the above...missionary work, medical support and charity...and, stood side by side with us and Britain.....and, if any of the above would have "attacked" verbally any of our devoted neighbors...I would have mentioned it for sure....I guess you're from Canada?...If so, you have my respect and admiration...but I never see anyone slammed other than us and the British for "openly" standing by us in this cluster &(*&^%....maybe Canada should speak up now..ya think?...Maybe the rest of world would speak up if they had any balls to?...Got me?...But, I do agree with your reply...and believe old Toe...if Canada, or anyone of our 'CURRENT' supporters would have been mentioned in the slamming...toe would be the first to recognize it!!! But I do wonder where our "devoted" allies are, even if only supporting us in a time when we need it....?????
passing shadows
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22 posted 2003-02-07 04:06 PM


well, I think you have the record of having the most lengthy replies that anyone has ever gotten here...you sure have stirred the pot. I will have to come back for more reading on this subject...interesting, indeed.
Aenimal
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23 posted 2003-02-07 05:49 PM


Toerag I understand and in no way am I undermining what you've said. My response was simply to tht first quote about any other country helping as much.
I just wanted to mention Canada because we also never get our credit or thanks for helping out or for our sacrifices. Though historians make mention the vast majority of people have no idea of Canadians role in the World Wars or in peacekeeping and aid missions. As for being an ally we did offer and send troops to Afghanistan and we were blasted for it, while not as openly as yourselves or the British but that again goes back to the point that we are ignored.
I am also ashamed of our slow response but realize our once proud and strong military has been reduced to a policing force due to an overly liberal government so even when we would help it would seem insignificant to most. That said i still would not agree with this war, the argument is still weak and more proof is needed for a full commital.

bbent
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Posts 521
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24 posted 2003-02-07 10:14 PM


Toerag...nor do I understand what's happened to reason.I certainly have no argument that this is one of the best systems of goverment in the world,my point and I feel the point of the poem was that were losing it.Many countries have been victims of terrorist attacks and have reacted in various ways.Even Isrial backed off retaliation after international pressure including pleas from the U.S.goverment.A goverment controlled by big money owned party politicians.Were fed propaganda designed to scare us into submission to bills like the so called patriot act.Yes we do alot of good around the world with aid,alot of it has nothing to do with the goverment but with volunteer and even religious organizations.Yes the goverment does buy it's share of support from other countries with aid,all part of politics.50,000 quote"expendable"grunts died beliving they were defending our right to freedom I for one won't sit back and watch our leaders make a mockery of there sacrifices.Kids faced with a kill first or be killed situation.Our soldiers wern't and still arn't bloody dirty american killers.Those ordering the killing done are the ones that should be held accountable.I could write a book on my personal beliefs, I only want to make people aware of what's going on,there are options and it's only going to change through people exercising there right to free speech before that right is gone too.I still applaude this poem,how are we to address any issue if it's not first acknowledged?  

Live like it's your last day...
Dance like nobody's watching...
Love like you've never been hurt...

Denise
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25 posted 2003-02-07 10:54 PM


bbent,

What are these options that I keep hearing about that will insure, as much as possible, the protection of the free world from the very real threat of barbaric attacks by a ruthless amoral dictator, who has consistently refused to comply with 17 + U.N. resolutions? He has been asked repeatedly to produce, or to show evidence of their destruction, the cataloged weapons of mass destruction. What is so hard about that? If he has destroyed what we know for a fact that he had in the past, then show the evidence that they have been destroyed to the inspectors.

Other than allowing him to continue on as he has done for the past 12 years, which is unacceptable, what options do you propose?

gypsy girl
Junior Member
since 2003-01-09
Posts 12
Pennsylvania, USA
26 posted 2003-02-07 11:19 PM


This is the most interesting thread I have seen yet in my time on this board. Congratulations, Brad, in inciting such debate with a well-written poem and a fitting nod to Ginsburg. I'm intrigued by the ideas you bring up in your piece; intrigued as much by the ensuing responses. One of the most interesting things about public reaction to this situation is the argument over what is patriotic. It gets lost somewhere, I think, the fact that this country was built by rebels. By people who came out to disagree with the majority. That the spirit of America is one of rebellion, one of questioning everything. That every step we take toward trusting our government without a doubt takes us further from our forefathers. Right or wrong, without people who campaign to change or speak out against the government, we would not be America. And yet those who bleed red, white and blue will say "How dare you!", be the first to remind you that someone died for you to have that freedom. Which is true, but for you to blindly agree or keep your opinions to yourself would be a personal destruction of that freedom they died for. Which is the greater desecration? Tough to answer, is it not?

[This message has been edited by gypsy girl (02-07-2003 11:20 PM).]

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
27 posted 2003-02-07 11:22 PM


....Which is the greater desecration?...

gypsygirl an absolutely brilliantly thought out response and argument!!!

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