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A home without a wall, |
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| How to Join | Member's Area | Private Library | Search | Sanctuary | Login | |
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| Main Forums | Discussion | Tech Talk | Mature Content | Archives |
A home without a wall, |
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| Open Poetry #22 |
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It's always someone else? |
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Fandaen Junior Member
since 2001-06-24
Posts 47Ft Worth, Texas |
Homeless people on the street Hungry children no food to eat Man on the corner will work for food Fluoride in water killing you What have you done to help People turn their heads What a shame they say Then continue on with their day Glad it isn’t me they think then go to bed Denial is not the cure Politicians lie The news won’t tell the truth Speeches and taxes Things are still the same Have you gone out to vote Corruption in corporate Layoffs at the plant Cut backs pay cuts Imports from China Soon you may join them Will you just watch And be glad that it is not you What will open your eyes Go home kiss your wife and hug your kids They may be next |
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| © Copyright 2002 B Thomas Daniels - All Rights Reserved | |||
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the_loner_23 Member Ascendant
since 2002-06-08
Posts 5479Jacksonville, Florida, USA |
This is a good poem. A lot to ponder here. Cold hands means a warm heart |
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wayoutwalt Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 4870TEXAS (it's all big) |
its a dirty viscious cycle. well expressed |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 (big hugggsssss) Oh Thomas, this is horrible, I can't believe the governments would lie to us and our children, it seems the best government is always the least government or none at all to me now! (sigh) My prayers are with our children, sweet friend, God Bless You, we all love you so much! You have such a beautiful heart, sweet Thomas, thank you for sharing! May love and light always shine upon you! Love, Noah Eaton "Underneath your clothes there's an endless story..." |
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Krishankins
since 2002-06-23
Posts 972Texas |
Very morally awakening! Nicely done! Hey dog, did you see the size of that chicken!? |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
No offense, but I find this a little too preachy for my taste. A little too morally arrogant. I am not intentionally insulting your work - you asked for critiques and my critique is that you have made many assumptions, and generalisations, about things that have no easy answers, nor solutions. I notice you say here that denial is not the cure, yet you didn't offer one? I'm afraid this did little to make me think, or relate, or say 'yes'...no, if anything it offended me, and since these issues seem to matter to you deeply, I thought I'd point that out - as I'm also sure you won't be happy that your expression of something so important to you can offend your reader. And Noah, it surprises me that you seem so surprised that a government can 'lie' to you. Just some food for thought...  K[This message has been edited by Severn (09-25-2002 05:42 AM).] |
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secretlife Member
since 2002-07-30
Posts 359Grean Earth ,,, |
Waw what agreat poems.. You reminde us on these people... Very nice thoughts... Good written... Hugeessss Secretlife, (Easy come,,Easy go) |
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Fandaen Junior Member
since 2001-06-24
Posts 47Ft Worth, Texas |
Actually I am rather happy that someone was offended. It just helps to illistrate how selfish and selfcentered people can be. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I don't particularly enjoy being labelled as self-centred and selfish, Fandaen. Usually, I would ask for your reply to be removed, as insulting another member of piptalk is against our guidelines, but I'll let that slide. However, I have two suggestions for you - either remove the critique flag from your profile as it's obvious you can't handle your poetry being critiqued, or think about what I said, because I believe you reacted to my comment without understanding it, or the motivation for it. Read your poem with an objective eye and think about how you could maybe get your points across better, without making blatant generalisations. If you don't want to accept that it is written in generalities, then accept that selfish people like myself might point that out to you. Honest and frank, as requested. K |
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Fandaen Junior Member
since 2001-06-24
Posts 47Ft Worth, Texas |
“No offense, but I find this a little too preachy for my taste.”-- It is fine that a certain poem is not to your taste. It would be a boring world if everyone in it liked the same thing. “A little too morally arrogant. I am not intentionally insulting your work” --Your not? Then why make such and unqualified statement that can not be supported with the content of the poem. This statement was made with personal bias in mind not structure and style. “you asked for critiques and my critique is that you have made many assumptions, and generalizations (correct spelling), about things that have no easy answers, nor solutions. I notice you say here that denial is not the cure, yet you didn't offer one?” --Good then I accomplished what I set out to do. I wished for the reader to form their own picture of situations around them in their areas of the world. I also left it to each reader to figure out for themselves what they could do to change the picture that they formed in their own mind. ”I'm afraid this did little to make me think, or relate, or say 'yes'...no, if anything it offended me, and since these issues seem to matter to you deeply, I thought I'd point that out” --Of course it made you think or you wouldn’t have lashed out as you did. Whether a reader that reacts this way out of denial, being self consumed and unaware of society around them or what ever the reason it has stirred some sort of emotion within them. And I promise you that though people may choose to continue about their daily lives as they have in the past, the next homeless person they see, the next news report about corporate corruption, or even the next time they hug their kids they will think about what they have read. Even if it is only subconsciously and even if they choose to continue to live in denial. “as I'm also sure you won't be happy that your expression of something so important to you can offend your reader.” -- Actually I am very happy that people are out there who may be offended by what they have read contained here. Perhaps they are the ones that need their eyes opened the most. The entire subject of homelessness, hunger, and corruption in government should be offensive to everyone. And if its offensive then shouldn’t a person be motivated to bring about change? “I don't particularly enjoy being labelled as self-centred and selfish, Fandaen. Usually, I would ask for your reply to be removed, as insulting another member of piptalk is against our guidelines, but I'll let that slide.” – I don’t believe that I ever said that Severn is self-centered and selfish. But I do thank you for helping me prove how effective generalizations can be. What I meant by my statement is explained above. “However, I have two suggestions for you - either remove the critique flag from your profile as it's obvious you can't handle your poetry being critiqued, or think about what I said, because I believe you reacted to my comment without understanding it, or the motivation for it.” --Actually my tag asks for meaningful and useful critique rather than attacks on content. My statement was not a reaction but a poorly phrased intent, which I corrected above. “Read your poem with an objective eye and think about how you could maybe get your points across better, without making blatant generalizations (spelling corrected). If you don't want to accept that it is written in generalities, then accept that selfish people like myself might point that out to you.” – The first part of this was explained above. As for the last part kudos to you acceptance of the problem is the first step to the cure. I salute you. |
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elisaseyes Member
since 1999-07-15
Posts 196fort worth texas |
What would Kamla know about American government except for all the jokes they hear in New Zealand over there? Kamla is sounding a little preachy herself threatening to wield her power sincde she is an almighty moderator (sounds like she's the American governemt doesn't it?) Kamla, sorry to pop open the coccoon but what Tom speaks of is very real in America and the government has dones it's part to keep the homeless homeless and sweep them under the rug. |
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wayoutwalt Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 4870TEXAS (it's all big) |
people that think they are going ooo me i am being insulted are really just exercising their self-given moderator right to be snotty (not that they are all that way... but most of the ones on false pedestals are that way). [This message has been edited by wayoutwalt (09-25-2002 10:02 PM).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
~rubbing hands in delight~ A discussion - brilliant. I do appreciate, Fandaen, the effort you made to reply this time - rather than hurling labels at me (or the other, mysterious people who might benefit from such labels). Thank you. Let me reply to you then. **** No offense, but I find this a little too preachy for my taste.”-- It is fine that a certain poem is not to your taste. ** Why thank you. It would be a boring world if everyone in it liked the same thing. ** to which I wholeheartedly agree. “A little too morally arrogant. I am not intentionally insulting your work” --Your not? ** No, I'm not and it's 'you're' not your. Then why make such and unqualified statement that can not be supported with the content of the poem. This statement was made with personal bias in mind not structure and style. ** Let me see. Firstly, I'd be interested to know your understanding of the nature of a critique, and for that matter - of a poem? Here's mine: Poetical structure, form and style may not be divorced from the content of a poem; the method of writing; the rhetorical devices used therein; or the poetics of a particular author. These factors, and more, create the whole of a poem. However, it is a critic's prerogative to critique either the whole or the parts thereof. It is not up to the author to dictate which parts of a poem a reader responds or reacts to, endorses, or dislikes. Critiques will always be from a subjective basis - bias if you prefer. I will do my best to assure you that my comments can in fact be proved by the content of your poem - as far as I'm concerned anyway, it is, afterall - my opinion and my critique. Let's break this down verse by verse to suit your need of a structural analysis - looking only in terms of my position of moral arrogance and preaching in your words. First Homeless people on the street Hungry children no food to eat Man on the corner will work for food Fluoride in water killing you What have you done to help ** Who may I ask is the 'you' in the last line? Is this you the reader? The people of your nation? The worldwide population? Does this 'you' include yourself? The last line of this poem follows four statements that express some aspect of societal decline. Therefore, the last line reads as an accusation. It is, in effect, the beginning of a stance that seems to imply the reader (or the nation, or the worldwide population) should feel guilty - a stance that is carried throughout the poem. Second People turn their heads What a shame they say Then continue on with their day Glad it isn’t me they think then go to bed Denial is not the cure ** Which people, Fandaen? I'm curious as to how you possess inside knowledge of a person's thoughts. In the first verse you have established a 'you.' It isn't too hard to conclude that you have transformed the 'you' into 'people' - so the impression of guilt, and the position of moral judgment continues. Why don't you replace the 'people' with a 'you' in here and see how it sounds. Third Politicians lie The news won’t tell the truth Speeches and taxes Things are still the same Have you gone out to vote ** Do I need to spell this out? Really? The implication is clear - if 'you' haven't gone out to vote, then the above four lines are the responsibility of the reader/nation/worldwide population. Fourth Corruption in corporate Layoffs at the plant Cut backs pay cuts Imports from China Soon you may join them ** Enlighten me if you will as to the 'imports from China?' And what is the 'you' going to join? You see, to me, it reads that perhaps the reader/nation/worldwide population will either become corrupt, lay people off, or be laid off - or become an import from China. Fifth Will you just watch And be glad that it is not you What will open your eyes Go home kiss your wife and hug your kids They may be next ** And here it's all summed up. By now, really, it's fairly evident that the 'you' refers to the reader. You have asked two questions: 'will you just watch' and 'what will open your eyes.' Fandaen, these lines respectively suggest that a: the reader is already just 'watching' and b: the reader already has their eyes closed to societal problems and is therefore a morally and socially irresponsible individual. There you are - my opinion with contextual and contentual evidence. “you asked for critiques and my critique is that you have made many assumptions, and generalizations (correct spelling), ** - actually Fandaen, you might have noticed that I live in New Zealand. New Zealanders use the UK English spelling and grammar in which z's are replaced with s's in many cases. about things that have no easy answers, nor solutions. I notice you say here that denial is not the cure, yet you didn't offer one?” --Good then I accomplished what I set out to do. I wished for the reader to form their own picture of situations around them in their areas of the world. I also left it to each reader to figure out for themselves what they could do to change the picture that they formed in their own mind. ** Is that not a moral imposition on your own behalf? ”I'm afraid this did little to make me think, or relate, or say 'yes'...no, if anything it offended me, and since these issues seem to matter to you deeply, I thought I'd point that out” --Of course it made you think or you wouldn’t have lashed out as you did. ** It did not make me think about how I could change the things in society that your poem was supposed to have produced images of. It made me think just what I have said - that this was written with moral arrogance. When I said 'think' perhaps I should have written 'reflect.' Whether a reader that reacts this way out of denial, being self consumed and unaware of society around them or what ever the reason it has stirred some sort of emotion within them. ** This way being the way I 'reacted' I assume? Let me assure you again - your poem produced no emotion other than a desire to let you know that I found the manner in which you constructed your poem offensive to myself as an individual. Rest assured, your poem produced no feelings of guilt. And I promise you that though people may choose to continue about their daily lives as they have in the past, the next homeless person they see, the next news report about corporate corruption, or even the next time they hug their kids they will think about what they have read. Even if it is only subconsciously and even if they choose to continue to live in denial. ** I find that to be an arrogant assumption. Some might, certainly. I won't. That is not a petty statement designed to attack - I'm simply telling you that I won't. I think about issues, and people who are unfortunate, quite readily without having to read a poem that I perceive as instructing a reader to feel ashamed that they don't do more to change society. “as I'm also sure you won't be happy that your expression of something so important to you can offend your reader.” -- Actually I am very happy that people are out there who may be offended by what they have read contained here. Perhaps they are the ones that need their eyes opened the most. ** You have assumed that my offense was taken by the content - not by the manner in which the content was presented. As for others - can't speak for them. The entire subject of homelessness, hunger, and corruption in government should be offensive to everyone. And if its offensive then shouldn’t a person be motivated to bring about change? ** You're presuming to speak about every individual on the planet now I take it. And it is unfortunately a naive, idealistic and perhaps ideological presumption. “I don't particularly enjoy being labelled as self-centred and selfish, Fandaen. Usually, I would ask for your reply to be removed, as insulting another member of piptalk is against our guidelines, but I'll let that slide.” – I don’t believe that I ever said that Severn is self-centered and selfish. ** No you didm't use my name Fandaen. If you think however that I am such an idiot as to fail to understand that it was subtly directed at me, think again please. But I do thank you for helping me prove how effective generalizations can be. What I meant by my statement is explained above. ** Weak. “However, I have two suggestions for you - either remove the critique flag from your profile as it's obvious you can't handle your poetry being critiqued, or think about what I said, because I believe you reacted to my comment without understanding it, or the motivation for it.” --Actually my tag asks for meaningful and useful critique rather than attacks on content. My statement was not a reaction but a poorly phrased intent, which I corrected above. ** Let me state again that you do not get to determine what a critic views as meaningful and useful. You get to choose to accept such critiques as lacking in meaning and use, but it isn't up to you to determine what a person can or can't say. “Read your poem with an objective eye and think about how you could maybe get your points across better, without making blatant generalizations (spelling corrected). If you don't want to accept that it is written in generalities, then accept that selfish people like myself might point that out to you.” – The first part of this was explained above. As for the last part kudos to you acceptance of the problem is the first step to the cure. I salute you. ** Weak again - one has to be careful with sarcasm, Fandaen. Honestly - this has been a good discussion so far. It's a good thing to discuss issues, especially when you don't see eye to eye with someone - variety is the spice of life to coin a cliche. **** Well hello Walt and Elisa. Just to let you both know - and really Walt you should already know this (in fact, I'm surprised at you) - I have no moderating 'power' (and really that is an ill-used term) in Open. Are you both sure you understood my previous comments to Fandaen? At which point did I refute the points he makes about societal problems? In fact, you might like to read again what I noted to Noah. I'm well aware of the problems of governments - both here and internationally. For the record, my primary position in this forums is as a reader. I read and responded to this poem as a reader and I found your remarks about my position as a moderator quite childish. K [This message has been edited by Severn (09-26-2002 01:19 AM).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
There is no lack of snotty people in this world - and almost none of them here are moderators. The people chosen to help moderate this site that many seem to take for granted are kind, helpful, thoughtful people who take their own time to wade through the hundreds of posts a day, thereby ensuring that people like you can have a place to come and share. Being a moderator doesn't exclude them, however, from being able to speak their mind in response to someone who has a critique flag checked. In no portion did Severn attack the author - the poem was addressed and critiqued, I think in a meaningful and helpful manner. To the poem and topic itself - homelessness is indeed a terrible thing. I live in America, by the by. The thing most "bleeding hearts" seem to overlook is that the largest percentage of people on the proverbial street are more than capable of attaining a job. Call it drug/alcohol addiction, laziness, whatever you will - the man I see standing on the corner for eight hours in the blazing heat is more than capable of applying for a position at McDonalds. That doesn't mean they'll get the first job that they apply for... but if they keep trying, they CAN get a job. I have no college education, no formal training of any type. I can go out tomorrow and by the end of the week have a dozen jobs. Effort is key - I see too many people here in my own town who simply don't WANT to work - instead, they would rather complain, whine, etc., while selling their food stamps for cash to buy dope with. On the flip side, I recognize that there are some who are truly incapable of getting a job / working. To these people I say - get government aid. If there is a true reason why you are unable to work, the government will provide you money and housing. The funds are there. But - most people aren't unable to work; they are UNWILLING. My mother works for the county in the welfare / family help division. She tells me new stories every week about a man who comes in, has three children, and honestly wants to work. Under the current budget, she is allowed to grant him money to pay his rent, help him feed his kids, and help him find a job. Some of these people, she tells me happily, jump at the opportunity, and come back later telling her how thankful they are for the "leg up." Others - they come back in a week later - "My boss was mean to me." - "The job was just too hard!" - often, they come back with no excuses, just a hand out for more money. Our system (finally) has been modified over the past decade to help deal with these types of people, giving them an opportunity, but no longer the "free-ride" they used to have. (Did you know that the welfare system here in California used to allow extra money for every child a woman had? Imagine the surprise that some of these women who had no jobs, poor - if any - housing, and had been on welfare for long periods of time, were STILL HAVING CHILDREN.) This is why you see more and more people out on the street. You know, I pay a lot of taxes (single male, oh yes, I pay a LOT of taxes) which go into a place for these people. It irritates me to no end to see them put up on a pity-pedestal for everyone else to feel sorry for. You know what? No one gave me what I have - I worked for it. You want me to feel sorry for someone? Show me the student who goes to school and works at night to ensure a better future. Show me the young woman working odd jobs here and there to help support herself, by herself. Show me the single parents who work long, hard hours to support the children they decided to have. Show me the people who are trying, they're the ones I'll feel for - because they're making an effort. Don’t' give me all the tripe about people on the street, because almost every one of them could be OFF the street if they wanted to WORK to get work. Ok, rant done. Christopher - Non-Snotty Moderator. BTW Fandaen - "generaliSation" is the correct spelling in the UK, which, as you may not know, is where our American language began as. I made the same mistake once myself, not realizing / realising the differences. |
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Fandaen Junior Member
since 2001-06-24
Posts 47Ft Worth, Texas |
This is truly wonderful Thank you guys so much for your thoughtful input. Christopher is correct about a huge portion of society. And that is how he views the situation and he is not incorrect. Far to often people incorrectly attribute the voice of a poem to the author of the poem. Like I had said it was written so that each person could get their own impressions as to the situation as they see it. And so far everyone has proven that it is very effective in that endeavor. Actually my views on the homeless are not stated in this poem because I wished each person to make up their own mind about the situation. Each of you have proven that I was successful in this task. As for the spelling it was merely stating the fact that my Microsoft spell checker changed the spelling of the original quote. You guys are fantastic and I am very happy that my poem was able to affect you as it has obviously done. As for the rest I will leave that to everyone to make up their own mind about. [This message has been edited by Fandaen (09-26-2002 01:39 AM).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
You're welcome - I'm open for discussion any time... [This message has been edited by Severn (09-26-2002 01:40 AM).] |
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Fandaen Junior Member
since 2001-06-24
Posts 47Ft Worth, Texas |
No, Christopher was apparently posting the same time I was so I didnt see his post in time. Though if it makes you feel better you still make me laugh. Though it is a laugh of pleasure not of ridicule. [This message has been edited by Fandaen (09-26-2002 01:42 AM).] |
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wayoutwalt Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 4870TEXAS (it's all big) |
why can't alot of stuff be solved like this in private emails and Christopher if you think that when certain moderators get their feathers ruffled they don't get all high and mighty then you just blind. And Severn I was only commenting on how you handled the situation from the onset - poorly. [This message has been edited by wayoutwalt (09-26-2002 07:26 AM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
ROFLMBO at the image of "Christopher - The Non-Snotty Moderator."  And Fandaen,  never stake your reputation on Microsoft anything, unless, of course, you are prepared to reboot your thinking a couple of times a day  Pete |
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Seymour Tabin Member Empyrean
since 1999-07-07
Posts 31720Tamarac Fla |
Fandaen Enjoyed the read, no comments. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I feel that this is a valid discussion area, Walt, since it was brought up and addressed in public. Suggesting that others [should] have addressed this in private while you do so in public is a bit on the hypocritical side from my perspective. To that, I believe that your comments are short-sighted, and narrow-minded. If you take a look at the way the system of moderating is set up, you will see that it disallows the abuse of "power" (which I agree is an often misused term). There is a systems of checks and balances that is inescabable for all moderators. We have our peers to keep us in check, limited forums to which we have "editing" access, and the final check of Ron, Karilea, Sharon, Kit, and Nan to help ensure that everyone addresses situations in the best possible manner. To wit - I cannot simply delete a post out of hand, and expect not to have to account for my actions. The same goes for anything I say or do within these forums. We are constrained, in many ways, more than our fellow members, because it falls upon us to be example to everyone else. It's my personal opinion that such responsibility falles equally on your head as a fellow member. This of course doesn't make us any less human. But I believe (and Walt, you've been around for a while, i am not a person much given to wearing blinders) that our moderators approach every situation with their best foot forward. This doesn't mean they're always right (I'm wrong most of the time, lol) of course. But the way they're addressing you is as a person, not as a moderator. I think that if you believe they misuse their perceived power, then perhaps you're looking at it from the wrong perspective; set up the way it is, it is nearly impossible for one of the moderators to misuse their abilities within these forums, because they WILL be called to account for their decisions and actions. That is, of course, unless you believe ALL moderators abuse their "power."? Christopher - The - Ok-So-Maybe-I'm-A-Little-Snotty-Moderator.  |
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elisaseyes Member
since 1999-07-15
Posts 196fort worth texas |
Homelessness is offensive? You mean like talking about sex at church-offensive? Or cussing in public infront of children-offensive? Welfare helps those who help themselves? Welfare keeps them down; keeps people in a vicious circle. doesn't do anything to help people get out of their situation~keeps them needing it. I'm sorry some people (I didn't say any names for those who are paranoid and think every comment is about them personally)are offended by reality. It must be nice to live in a fantasy worls where you're always right. Has anyone given any thought to why so many talented poets leave this site? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
have you given any thought to why so many stay? |
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elisaseyes Member
since 1999-07-15
Posts 196fort worth texas |
since the inception? okay i'll give you that. . .just a tiny few. |
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SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Gee, this created some heavy dialogue. From the poem itself, is there anything said that is not true? This seemed to make some folks very defensive. Perhaps, there is more going on than the poem itself? Yes, there are social abuses taking place all the time. Provoking thought is what helps to change the human condition. I remind you all, "There but for the grace of God go I". |
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ThUnDeRkYsS Senior Member
since 1999-09-23
Posts 727Wisconsin |
What a great reminder/wake up call to many people who overlook things like this and deny the fact that they could so something to help. Strive for higher levels, if they seem out of reach... Grow, and they will get closer. |
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