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| How to Join | Member's Area | Private Library | Search | Sanctuary | Login | |
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| Main Forums | Discussion | Tech Talk | Mature Content | Archives |
A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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Enough Already!!!!! |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State 
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OK...I've FIANALLY come to vent! I'm so SICK and TIRED of finding people criticizing poetry in their replies. I don't understand what makes anyone think this is OK to do unless the poet ask's for it. I have found this happening to many new members, along with all other members. I feel that if some one thinks another can improve their poetry...then say so by e-mail, dont embarrass the person publicly. Any other way, in my oppinion, is just FLAT OUT RUDE! We have a forum for this and it's called "Critical Analysis" So for those who feel that they are suppior enough to do so....maybe should keep their negitive comments to them selves....or visit CA, where people are asking for advice! And yes, I know, I know, there are many of you that are good friends and critique each other in replies...and that is your choice. But there is a fine line being crossed when one doesn't know the other. And evem more irritating to me, is when I see NEW members doing this!  I would never, ever do this to anyone, even if I thought I was helping. Am I the only one who feels this way? Whew...Ok, and one last thing before I go....just a little thing. What is it with people posting a poem or three EVERYDAY! I am annoyed at this and I'm not sure why. These members are only hurting them selves by doing so. It gets to a point where no one wants to read there work anymore, and in turn get less or no replies at all! OK, I'm done now...and I feel better...for now anyway! I'm sure someone out there will have choice words for me!  But that's ok.....Freedom of Speech and I'm all for it! ~Sheri |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Okay, Irie...I'll reply, but only if ya promise not to poke me in the eye!!! As to the first part, I couldn't agree with ya more...there is a section for critique, and I can only suspect that some of the newer members don't yet understand passions' etiquette---altho, I welcome critique (from certain members) I also prefer that it be done privately through e mail or icq...and fortunately I've not had a problem with that personally.... As to the posting of 1 to 3 poems a day...ouch...guilty...I try to write and post one poem daily...and I do hope that I have not worn out my welcome by doing so...and sometimes I just get downright nuts and keep seem to help my self---discipline is not my strong suit---lol...but of late, I have been trying to post in other forums, and I do try to reply more than I post...and as for others, I know that there are some who do not have access to a computer all week, and "save" their work to post all at once when the opportunity arrives...so there are some of the reasons...I do hope that I am not one who has annoyed you, or even worse, bored you...as I've really tried to cut back a bit...and besides, I like my eyes...lol...wouldn't want ya to come after me to give me "Da Finga!" |
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WhtDove Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245Illinois |
Irie, I guess people do get irritated with critiques in their work. This used to be a common thing here when it was smaller. The point of someone critiquing is to help another better their work. If that offends you or embarrasses you, maybe you should email that person, and ask them to do it privately, or not at all. And you're right there is a forum for that kind of thing. As for posting one a day....I think if someone actually has that much inspiration that they can write one a day, that's fantastic! Posting 1-3 poems a day is allowed. If that annoys you then don't read or reply to those poets. Just ignore them. |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
Serenity... I guess I should have been more specific about the posting part. It's more so in a few of the smaller forums that drive me nuts. It's not you hun..(hugs)..I'm actually speaking of a few specific members. Maybe I'll edit my post and be more specific. Imagine logging on and finding the same person with several posts almost on a daily basis. I'm sure these people have access to a computer at home. And again, I'm not sure why this bothers me so much...but it does, and believe me when I say it's not you. And NO, I won't poke you in the eye! I only poke the BAD BAD men who mis-treat women in the eye! So now that I've said all that I guess I have no reason to edit my post! LOL That is so long as people read this! hehe ~Sheri |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
You may not be too surprised to see that this has come up before... once or twice. LOL. Here's a relatively recent one. You might even recognize the complainer...  Just a wee bit 'o steam Though from the other side of the fence perhaps...LOL [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 08-21-2000).] |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
White Dove...you snuck in on me! I have e-mailed people when I felt they were out of line. It's not me that I speak of, I've just seen it a lot in replies to other members poetry, that's all. And I don't agree with it. It's not polite, at least I don't think so anyway.... And I could see this being a commen thing when Passions was smaller, but it's not small anymore. I'm sure that's why we have CA now. And as for the multiple posts, I do ignore them. Read the above in my reply to Serenity! Thanks for your comments.  ~Sheri |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Hello Irie... one of the things I learned at a late date was when I saw someone's name at the top of the "list" not once, but several times, I had to get used to reading "the small print" to see that perhaps someone had gone through [in the Search] to reply to several poems done by one person: this is an act of respect... other times, when one's name is again at the tope of the "list" several times, it could be that they are replying to responders as they have just come back to their computers...[again, you have to read the dates to see that it could be they are not all being posted the same day] then of course, we do have problems with our multiple posters...sigh and they usually experience the Passionate Plummet unless, they, of course, "up" themselves... as to the critiquing...if not directed at you, then who are you coming to the Alley for? Yes, some people feel they have the right...others want to help...and one thing we all forget is that the written word can be and will be interpreted in many ways... I could be sitting here right now, attempting to help out by explaining various things... and you are sitting wherever you are and reading it as criticism... so while I have no magic answers for you, I have found in my time here that to read, read, read helps me most times answer my own questions...for I have had questions such as yours... and if you get really bugged by someone, let one of the moderators know by e-mail or ICQ, and we will be glad to help you with these annoyances... in the meantime, hugs... Karilea When you want to be loved, look within...KRJ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Okay, I'll admit it, it bothers me too when I see 3 or more poems posted daily, but I know why it bothers me....I'm jealous that I can't write that frequently!!! *sigh* It also bothers me even more that I just can't read and reply to all the poems like I used to be able to do in the 'olden' days.....hehehe....like maybe 4 months ago...now the best I can usually do is read one at the most from any particular poet and even then I don't get to all of them...another *sigh* Denise  |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
As far as the massive posts...I'm not THAT dumb! I can tell when someone has just posted new material. When there are 0 replies, that's usually a dead give away that they were just posted, and together. Especailly when the date is THAT day and the time is minutes apart. I do know the difference from people posting replies and a person posting replies back to a reply. I may be blonde, but I'm not that blonde! (unless that offends someone too) And who am I coming to the Alley for? For all those that are just as annoyed about the critiquing as I am, but don't want to be the one to possibly "stir the waters", if you know what I mean. I'm not really sure why everyone keeps assuming someone has critiqued my work and it's pissed me off or something! I've already stated that a couple of times! "Read, read, read" Now, let me ask you this, when I see someone post a reply saying " This is a nice poem, but it doesn't flow very well", how many times do I need to read that to "interpret" what one person has just said to another? OR "This poem was choppy and bounces the reader around a lot. Try smoothing it out!" We can all sit here and defend these people until we're blue in the face.....the fact remains...it's uncalled for and it's RUDE! That's my story and I'm sticken to it!  And hey Denise, Very good point! It is very hard to keep up with everyone as it is! ~Sheri |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Rubbing my eyes in relief...lol, Irie... |
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WhtDove Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245Illinois |
I guess that telling someone it don't flow very well, can be viewed as rude. Maybe their etiquette is off, and perhaps could be stated in a better way. I personally, if my poetry is that off, and someone has a difficult time reading it and is stumbling over the words, I would rather hear they did, than for them to tell me how wonderful it was, when it really wasn't! If it's not being done to your work, then I think if it's upsetting the person who it is done to, as much as you, I think they need to email the person who's doing it, and let them know how they feel. Or, they can post it in a reply under the other reply. Stating, I don't like my work, critiqued, please don't do it any more. I guess in a way, we're always willing to accept praise even if it isn't true, than to accept what could be wrong, and try to fix that. But to each his own...you certainly never have to accept a critique on a poem. When put as you put it there, I don't find it rude, but I see someone trying to help. I'd rather someone told me, than to not say anything at all, by not replying. Then of course we'd have another problem. If the poetry recieved no replies, we can gather 2 things... 1. My poetry is bad, no one reads it. 2. People don't like me for some reason and therefore won't reply to my work. Yep, we have grown larger, and now we do have a CA forum for that. I agree... I don't think saying it didn't flow well, is a big critique, but is a critique nonetheless. I think an indepth critique, unless otherwise said it was wanted, would be better suited for CA. But hey that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about those  |
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StarrGazer Senior Member
since 2000-03-05
Posts 679Texas |
Irie, The examples you gave of critisism : *"This poem was choppy and bounces the reader around a lot. Try smoothing it out!" *" This is a nice poem, but it doesn't flow very well" Ok now for my take on this... there are two kinds of critisism constructive and down right rude. These examples, I would have to say, are constructive. They let the reader know that the poem was read and enjoyed, and suggest a way to perhaps make the poem even better. I think that all of us, as writers, even as just people, have to decide for ourselves when someone's opinion warrants our attention. If someone posts a response to something I have written, and gives advice on how they think I can make it better I have two choices 1. See if perhaps they are right and maybe change some things 2. Decide it is something I have written and that I don't want to change and kindly thank them for their opinion and move on. I don't think anyone on these forums is trying to put anyone's writing down, or meaning to critisize anyone's work. In fact I have found that everyone here encourages each other to write, and better their writing . Every one has their own opinion, and it has always been that way and will always be that way. Most of the famous poets that we know today were looked down upon and criticized for their writing style, etc... And I guess my opinion is write from your heart, if you think that it's good it's good simply because you have written it and liked it. But, don't be so blinded as to not see when others advice may help you write something even better... Ok, ok enough rambling lol Shan |
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JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Well Ire (did I spell that right?) I must say that you certainly are taking a vehement stance on something that has not personally happened to you... If we all could be so enraged by the social injustices in the world...Seriously though, I had to suppress a knee jerk reaction to respond to your posts because I am trying to be a kinder, gentler JP. However, I will say that experience has shown that most poets at Passions welcome some constructive comments on thier work, and rarely are disgruntled when someone says "I really liked this, but the 4th line in the 56th stanza was a rough..." As for multiple posts... that has been an ongoing concern since the inception of Passions and probably will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. That, as it is with many things in life, is something that we must just handle with patience and understanding.  Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. JP "Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
OK, maybe I have not made my self very clear. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, BUT, I feel that it shouldn't be done publicly. Unless a person ask's for it or it's posted in CA. Everyone takes things differently. Just because one thing doesn't bother one person, doesn't mean it won't bother the next. I'm still standing firm on what I believe.... Do it via e-mail or ICQ. And I too would want to know if my poetry needed work, and wouldn't want a "fake" reply. HOWEVER, it still should be done in private! And JP, I'm far from enraged hun. Just making a stand for what I believe in...criticize privately.. just like a lot of folks here are making a stand for what they believe in...public criticism.And just WHAT is so wrong with me being annoyed by what happens to other people. Just because I'm annoyed automatically means it's happend to me? Hmmm? Go figure. And for the record, I never said that it didn't happen to me. It has ions ago and I replied to that person via e-mail and asked them to not do it in the form of a reply. They agreed and everything was fine. < !signature--> ~Sheri [This message has been edited by Irie (edited 08-22-2000).] |
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Rex Member
since 2000-06-29
Posts 482Houston, Texas |
Just a couple of comments from the peanut gallery. Personally, I do not comment on a poem unless I like it. I never criticise a poem (even if I think it deserves criticism) because I don't feel qualified to do so. Who am I to criticise someone else's work? There are particular types of "poetry" that I do not like, period; some of which I consider to be trash. When I read some of these and I see other people "gushing" over how great they are it makes me want to regurgitate, but I say nothing and move on. To each his own! One other point I think worth mentioning is the posting issue (not just poetry): Many people will post a reply for no other reason than to increase their post count so they can move up to the next level. Much is made on this site about the number of posts a person has, without any regard to the quality of those posts. Further, many poets will respond to people who have commented on their poetry by a "reply post" on the board. This has a dual effect: first, it moves their original post back to the top of the heap, and second, it adds to the pile of memory that the server has to handle. I don't think either of these situations is good for the Passions Forums. My apologies if I offended anyone, but it's what I feel. Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings: it takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquility. -William Wordsworth- |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I'm staying out of this one (for now), but I do feel it's important to clarify a point made by Rex. Rex, responding to a comment with another comment, whether it be a simple "thank you" or a gentle elbow in the ribs, is not only okay, it's to be encouraged. It's called dialog. People talking with each other, not simply to each other. It's not just how most people make friends (which ain't a bad thing), but it's also how we deepen our understanding of human nature. And isn't that what poetry is all about? |
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Rex Member
since 2000-06-29
Posts 482Houston, Texas |
Ron.....Perhaps you misunderstood the point I was attempting to make. Be that as it may, it's an excellent web site. Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings: it takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquility. -William Wordsworth- |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
Rex, let me start by saying that I applaud your efforts to keep to your self when it comes to judging what is good and what is bad. You're right in saying "to each his own". Some like coffee, some like tea. I am also happy to see that I'm not the only one here who has these feelings about "critiquing". As far as the posting replies just to bump ones status to a higher level....that has never crossed my mind. I guess some out there might do such a thing. But as far as posting to poetry...if I don't like it, I won't reply. However, I am guilty of posting replies to those who have replied to me. Though, I do wait until there is a handfull of them before I reply, and tell everyone my "thanks you" at once. I try to keep it to a minimum. So, I guess I'm guilty as charged! As far as the multiple posts go.....I'm taking back my comments on that issue. I'm going to just ignore it from now on! And hey Ron....Don't worry, I'm not out to try and get everyone heated over this. I was just trying to make a point, and some people might take it the wrong way! I'm not blaming EVERYONE as a whole and saying this should NEVER happen, I'm just saying that there is a fine line there and some people are maybe crossing it when they shouldn't be. And I will say once again, I know there are some members out there that are friends and it's an expected thing for them to critique each other. Others ask for honesty...etc. Then of course CA. But I still think that people should think twice before they post a critique. "How well do I know this person? Might this offend them or embarrass them?" I say look at it this way. Just because it wouldn't offend one, doesn't mean it wouldn't offend another. Thats all I'm trying to say. ~Sheri |
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WhtDove Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245Illinois |
I see your point! I really do... I just want to add one more thing here and I'm done. You can take what you've just said and turn it around too. Maybe we should realize that we're posting our poetry in a "Public" forum, and once in a while be prepared for someone to say something. I guess in a way once posted it then becomes public domain. We can't stop everyone else from doing what we don't like, but we sure can do something in how we deal with it. Like posting poems 3 in a day, it's inevitable, it will happen. As I guess to be expected the once in a while public critique! So I guess there are some things we tend to ignore if they bother us. Cause over all with this many people, everyone seems to get along pretty good |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Going off a bit of a tangent here... I'm a fan of critique. I believe the opinion's of others encourage growth and exploration within a writer's work. There is much emphasis on possessing the necessary 'qualifications' to perform a critique...I don't entirely endorse that philosophy though...afterall, the majority of critiquers write also and often get as much out of giving a critique as does the recipient. In my opinion no writer ever reaches their full potential - we can always improve. So, I think the relationship between a critiquer and the critiqued is one of interaction; a mutually beneficial session with the potential for growth. I prefer to post my poetry in CA or English (when I have time lol) purely because I want a critical response to my work. That's my choice and I am by no means stating this should or could apply to all...lol...I wasn't always so brave to post in CA... I love the nature of Open, just as I love the nature of CA. Both have their own essential languages and flavours within Passions. A clear delineation between the two should remain I feel. However, one thing about Open that disturbs me is the amount of sheer gush that exists there. It almost seems that it has become impolite in some ways to respond with anything less than a 'this is superb/beautiful' and similar adjectives. Why is this? While I agree and even enjoy and am inspired by the fact that this builds our community here, I am concerned that the potential growth of our writers is being undermined... I, like Rex, do not respond to poetry that I don't like and do not critique there unless requested. But I refuse to gush. LOL. (Unless of course I truly a poem...hehe). Perhaps the occasional critique of one or two lines would be less noticable if the amount of gush was not so apparent. Hope I haven't upset anyone - just speaking my mind. K |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Obviously, I'm going to have to stop wearing these rose-colored glasses. I keep going around amazed at how wonderfully smooth everything is going here We have more members than many small towns in America and I think we all get along pretty darned well. It's sad to see a member speak out so vehemently against conditions at the site....and before you jump up to deny the word, Erie, go back and read your comments and your capitalized words and your exclamation points scattered throughout. You are REALLY irritated by these points and I guess I am just blind to them. I try to, as a moderator, read almost every post in Open for pleasure and rule adherence and I must say that I do not see this criticism you are referring to. If it ever is done, it is handled with respect and friendship. There were times in the distant past where people came in for the expressed purpose of criticizing others but they did not last long. If it were happening now, I would know about it. Normally, if it is done, an e-mail to the person is enough to stop it, as was in your case. Although I do not do it, there are many times that I will read a poem that is so darned good and has a few minor flaws which keep it from being great and I would love to say something to the poet in my reply but I don't because we don't do that here....but I can understand a newer member unaware of everyone's sensitivity to critique try to say something in a nice way to be helpful. These people are not to be ranted at but just explained to that it is not Passion's way. You certainly have the right to be irritated at anything you feel like...it's just that I'm having a problem finding the target of your irritability here. As far as multiple posts, if they are bad they will disappear quickly. If they are good....give me more. Hopefully I have not offended you in any way but....this IS the ALLEY! (btw...you misspelled FINALLY in you original post )[This message has been edited by Balladeer (edited 08-23-2000).] |
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JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Arrogance and false humility.... We are arrogant enough to post our work on a public web site, hoping that someone will read it and agree with us that we are the bomb, then we are arrogant enough to become irate if someone tells us we ain't all that... THEN... we pretend we are just a lowly soul trying to enjoy the craft of poetry and telling the world that we are not qualified to critique someone else's work... Personally I am arrogant enough to think my poetry is pretty good - to those that like it. I also welcome the chance to improve my work if the opportunity is presented with tact and respect. I have found, albeit very rarely, a few folks who present themselves as rude, know-it-all, morons, these folks do not last. The others here just give a little nudge now and again, out of friendship and love of the craft. what was my original point? Nevermind.... gotta go to work now.... Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. JP "Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
All ya'll have some good and valid points. But ya wanna know what really chews my butt? When someone misspells the title of their poem, then gets miffed when noone reads the blasted thing! Or when a poem is chocked full of grammatical errors and noone dares to point it out for fear of a social faux-pas. I dunno...p'raps a poem peppered with misspellings is the poet's style, kinda like e.e. cummings' abhorance of the punctuation mark and shift key. But what really gets my goat (by the way, what do you get when you cross an owl and a goat...a hootnanny ) are diet drinks. Yeah, they have less caloric value, so why do people drink more of it? "Yes, I'd like a triple-decker cheesemonger, make it two, a genocide-by-chocolate shake, bucket of salt-laden fries, and a diet Coke." That makes about as much sense to me as Schrodinger's cat. ARRRRGGHHH...need coffee.... |
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Nicole Senior Member
since 1999-06-23
Posts 1835Florida |
It's because diet drinks TASTE better, silly cat. Sheesh |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
"deer, you've not offended me. I get the feeling though that the fact that I'm annoyed is a BIG no-no around here. I never said that Passions was a bad place to be and that no one got along here. I never said I wasn't irritated either. I just said that I wasn't enraged as someone else thought I was. I aslo never said that these cases were all in open. And now, once again I'll explain my "target of irritability". .....If some one wants to "point" something out to another poet it should be done in private (in my oppinion), via E-mail, Icq, something other than in a reply. That's ALL I'm saying.... And for the record, I reneged on my comment about the multiple posts in an earlier reply! And 'deer.... Touche` It was an honest typo really! Jp, I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out who is arrogant and irate. Cat...LMAO! hehehe Sataite.... Eeewwwww.. I can't stand the TASTE of diet drinks. The after taste that's left behind is almost enough to gag a maggot! But then again, to each his/her own, right? Some like coffe, some like tea! < !signature-->~Sheri [This message has been edited by Irie (edited 08-23-2000).] |
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JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Diet drinks... perhaps the word diet should be removed from them... most people I know, including myself, drink them because they are sugar-free, we could not care less that they are reduced in caloric content. Sugar, you see, is an insidious poison that has been slowly killing humanity since it's inception... plus, when you drink a regular soda it leaves a filmy aftertaste in your mouth BLECH! Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. JP "Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
JP...sorry, dude, but you're wrong. They are sucrose-free, but not sugar free. Aspartame is a suger, albiet synthetic, and much, much sweeter than sucrose or dextrose. There are a few other 'sugars' whose names elude me, but they are all poly-saccharides, or long-stringed sugars. Wow....who ever thunk that my chemistry class in college would ever pay off... [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 08-24-2000).] |
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poetFemmeFatale Member Elite
since 1999-07-25
Posts 2646Arkansas |
ROFLMAO at Alicat's BIG brain! hehe I humbly bow to your fantastic knowledge! I HATED chemistry, and am so glad you've found a use for what YOU learned! hehehehe Who woulda' thunk? |
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