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Stimulating Way to Create Jobs |
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Balladeer
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Analysis finds stimulus confusion WASHINGTON — The federal government sent Bob Bray $26,174 in stimulus aid to fix a fence and replace the roofs on public apartments in Blooming Grove, Texas, a town of fewer than 900 people outside Dallas. He hired five roofers and an inspector to do the job. But the number of jobs he reported to the government looked very different — 450 jobs. "Oh, no," said Bray, who runs the local public housing authority part-time with his wife, Linda, when asked about the discrepancy. He said that he told the government that he had created six jobs but that a federal official told him that wasn't right. So he reported the number of hours the roofers worked instead. The Department of Housing and Urban Development caught the mistake, but he couldn't fix it before the jobs figures were published. "The money was great, but the reports are really confusing," he said. "I've been fighting with it for over a month and a half." USA TODAY reviewed the reports to determine the number of jobs created or saved per stimulus dollar. The review found 14 recipients that reported saving or creating more than 100 jobs for less than $1,500 per job — suggesting they overreported the number of jobs. Those included: •The police department in Plymouth, Conn., claimed in its report that a $15,355 grant used to buy new computers had created or saved 108 jobs. The department had 22 law enforcement officers last year, according to the FBI. Mayor Vincent Festa said that the town has resorted to "counting paper clips" to save money but that it had no plans to lay off any of its police officers, even without the stimulus. He said he could not explain the report, and the town's police chief did not return telephone calls Monday. •The Southwest Georgia Community Action Council, which employs about 500 people in its Head Start preschool program, reported creating or saving 935 jobs with about $1.3 million in funding. Beverly Wise, the group's fiscal officer, said she followed the advice of federal officials to come up with the number. "I thought it was high," Wise said of the number she reported, adding that the process was confusing. The group is using its stimulus money to give a 1.84% pay raise to its employees and pay for other needs such as playground equipment and training for the teachers who serve 2,300 low-income children. •Teach for America, which helps place recent graduates in teaching jobs in urban and rural districts, reported that a $2 million grant created or saved 1,425 jobs. Spokeswoman Kerci Marcello Stroud said officials used that money to pay part of the salaries of 125 employees; a separate $6 million allowed it to expand the training program to include 1,300 more graduates. Liz Oxhorn, a spokeswoman for the White House stimulus effort, said the reports give "the American people one of the best looks ever at real-time information about a major initiative" and the reporting "allows people to find any mistakes, as it should — which will help us correct them promptly." http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-11-02-stimjobs_N.htm?csp=34 Would that be allow people to find mistakes....or find where records have been falsified or manipulated? Stimulus jobs in U.S. overstated by thousands WASHINGTON — An early progress report on President Obama's economic recovery plan overstates by thousands the number of jobs created or saved through the stimulus program, a mistake that White House officials promise will be corrected in future reports. The government's first accounting of jobs tied to the $787 billion stimulus program claimed more than 30,000 positions paid for with recovery money. But that figure is overstated by least 5,000 jobs, according to an Associated Press review of a sample of stimulus contracts. The AP review found some counts were more than 10 times as high as the actual number of jobs; some jobs credited to the stimulus program were counted two and sometimes more than four times; and other jobs were credited to stimulus spending when none was produced. For example: • A company working with the Federal Communications Commission reported that stimulus money paid for 4,231 jobs, when about 1,000 were produced. • A Georgia community college reported creating 280 jobs with recovery money, but none was created from stimulus spending. • A Florida child care center said its stimulus money saved 129 jobs but used the money on raises for existing employees. There's no evidence the White House sought to inflate job numbers in the report. But administration officials seized on the 30,000 figure as evidence that the stimulus program was on its way toward fulfilling the president's promise of creating or saving 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year. The White House released a statement early Thursday that it said laid out the "real facts" about how jobs were counted in the stimulus data distributed two weeks ago. It said that had been a test run of a small subset of data that had been subjected only to three days of reviews, that it had already corrected "virtually all" the mistakes identified by the AP and that the discovery of mistakes "does not provide a statistically significant indication of the quality of the full reporting that will come on Friday." While the thousands of overstated jobs represent a tiny sliver of the overall economy, they represent a significant percentage of the initial employment count credited to the stimulus program. In fact, the AP review shows some businesses undercounted the number of jobs funded under the stimulus program by not reporting jobs saved. Here are some of the findings: • Colorado-based Teletech Government Solutions on a $28.3 million contract with the Federal Communications Commission for creation of a call center, reported creating 4,231 jobs, although 3,000 of those workers were paid for five weeks or less. "We all felt it was an appropriate way to represent the data at the time" and the reporting error has been corrected, said company president Mariano Tan. • The Toledo, Ohio-based Koring Group received two FCC contracts, again for call centers. It reported hiring 26 people for each contract, or a total of 52 jobs, but cited the same workers for both contracts. The jobs only lasted about two months. The FCC spotted the problem. The company's owner, Steve Holland, acknowledged the actual job count is closer to five and blamed the problem on confusion about the reporting. The AP's review identified nearly 600 contracts claiming stimulus money for more than 2,700 jobs that appear to have similar duplicated counts. • Barbara Moore, executive director of the Child Care Association of Brevard County in Cocoa, Florida, reported that the $98,669 she received in stimulus money saved 129 jobs at her center, though the cash was used to give her 129 employees a 3.9% cost-of-living raise. She said she needed to boost their salaries because some workers had left "because we had not been able to give them a raise in four years." • Officials at East Central Technical College in Douglas, Georgia, said they now know they shouldn't have claimed 280 stimulus jobs linked to more than $200,000 to buy trucks and trailers for commercial driving instruction, and a modular classroom and bathroom for a health education program. "It was an error on someone's part," said Mike Light, spokesman for the Technical College System of Georgia. The 280 were not jobs, but the number of students who would benefit, he said. • The San Joaquin, California, Regional Rail Commission reported creating or saving 125 jobs as part of a stimulus project to lay railroad track. Because the project drew from two pools of money, the commission reported the jobs figure twice, bringing the total to 250 on the government report. Spokesman Thomas Reeves said the commission corrected the data Tuesday. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-10-29-stimulus-jobs_N.htm?obref=obinsite WASHINGTON — President Obama's economic advisers estimated Thursday that the economic stimulus package has saved or created about 1 million jobs.http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-09-10-stimulus-jobs_N.htm?obref=obinsite WASHINGTON — Recipients of stimulus aid created or saved more than 640,000 jobs this year, the Obama administration said Friday in its most complete accounting yet of the $787 billion plan's impact on the economy.http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-10-30-stimulus-jobs_N.htm?obref=obnetwork Don't these people recognize that figures are eventually going to be checked and their "Oh, we made a mistake" excuse can only be used so many times? No more "politics as usual", Barack? Oh, really...? |
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© Copyright 2009 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved | |||
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Judging by the sheer volume of 'jobs' they're trying to count I'd be happy with a plus or minus 20% margin of error within the time-frame they're working with. The last big company I worked for couldn't get my paycheck right for... um... 9 years. Wanna know what else is frustrating? I couldn't tell my boss something and expect him to tell it to his boss the way I told it to him. And so on, and so on, and so on. What you're complaining about isn't politics as usual Mike -- it's 'work' as usual -- 'human interaction' as usual. I notice though Mike, you're using MSM here -- I thought the MSM didn't criticize this administration. USA Today -- a Gannet paper -- 2nd largest newspaper circulation in the country -- and the largest -- WSJ? ![]() |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! Well, then, I guess that since FOX has the highest audience it must be mainstream, too, right, reb? ![]() No, it's not work as usual. When Obama juggles and misrepresents the figures to make his plan look like doing something it isn't, it's pure politics. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
It's ok Mike -- considering you're typing while impaired I'll forget you just admitted that Fox is CONSERVATIVE! ![]() quote: Wowee! look at this will ya? MSNBC and the AP being critical of the Obama administration... it must mean they're fair and balanced....? |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No problem, reb...keep trying to lead away from the actual topic. Not much else you can do, I know. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Beg pardon Mike.... you're the one diverting -- and that's called being political -- from the real issue -- which isn't that the 30k number was wrong -- but that the Stimulus is WORKING! Nite! I'll get back into your flu fluff another time. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
The early data was pretty much posted as it came in, without review. It appears that what your sources are saying, if I understand them correctly. There's a high percentage of bad data. It makes no sense, and appears offensive and raises ugly questions. Is that basically right, Mike? My preference is to have early data out before it's been curry combed too much, so that folks can see what the raw data looks like. There are problems with the collection instruments in cases like this that need to be looked at, as you've pointed out, before we can get data that looks properly organized, and you'd have to know enough statistics to know how to go about that without messing up the sample. It's well over my head, though it probably shouldn't be. You're right to be skeptical, just on general principles, I think, but it might be helpful to remember that this is preliminary data, and that treating it as finished data is like treating apple pips like an apple pie. You simply don't get the same taste sensation because the two are very different things. The same paragraph in one of the quotes above offers some of the delights in the confusions proposed by these news reports. quote: The first sentence — " There's no evidence the White House sought to inflate job numbers in the report...." — tells us that there's probably no wrongdoing involved by the White House, despite the barrage of examples offered elsewhere in the article. The second sentence offers a generalization that the administration doesn't seem to have the data, on the basis of the information offered in these articles at least, to make with any authority. I think they may well have reason to make assertions like this on other data, but I'd feel much better if they specified it here, so we might check it out for ourselves. Until the more refined data appears on Friday, they don't seem to have enough to back up their assertion here. I think Mike may be making his assertions in advance of the data as well, though. I'll be interested in seeing what Friday brings. BK |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
But administration officials seized on the 30,000 figure as evidence that the stimulus program was on its way toward fulfilling the president's promise of creating or saving 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year. That's my take on it, Bob. They grabbed inaccurate figures that were adventageous to them without verifying them and released them as proof the plan was working. Would they have offered to go back and check the figures if the press hadn't exposed them as being invalid? I'll let you answer that one.. Thanks for addressing the actual topic, Bob...doesn't happen that often in these parts ![]() |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
By Paul Davidson, USA TODAY WASHINGTON — The nation's unemployment rate shot up more sharply than expected last month, to 10.2% from 9.8% in September, as employers shed 190,000 jobs. It marks the first time since 1983 that the jobless rate has reached 10%. Unemployment for adult men and teen-agers set records as major industries such as construction and manufacturing continue to slash tens of thousands of jobs, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Friday. "It's a very disconcerting report," says Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Economy.com. Chris Rupkey of Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, among the few economists who had been expecting a strong recovery, says the big jump in the unemployment rate "is like a kick in the stomach" to hopes for a robust upturn. President Obama called the jobless rate a "sobering" figure that underscored the economic challenges ahead. Twist those numbers around, Barack.... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Count me as one of the economically challenged... ![]() I've even gotten to the point of making aguas horchata! Just to feel like I'm still alive and treating myself to a high life! LOL... ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Aha. As I suspected all along Mike -- you AGREE with Krugman! : quote: Good to see that you're FINALLY discussing the topic... ![]() |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Unless something changes drastically, we’re looking at many years of high unemployment. I don't understand. Didn't Obama assure us that, if congress passed his stimulus plan, unemployment would not pass 8.5%? Are you calling him either dumb or a liar? Mut be one of the two.... not that long ago the U.S. economy was in free fall. Without the recovery act, the free fall would probably have continued, as unemployed workers slashed their spending, cash-strapped state and local governments engaged in mass layoffs, and more. "Probably" is such an interesting word, isn't it? Sounds a little like Obama claiming that so many jobs were PROBABLY saved by his actions. For Klugman to have to use that word means he doesn't really know, either. Solid growth will continue only if private spending takes up the baton as the effect of the stimulus fades. And so far there’s no sign that this is happening. either (1) the stimulus has failed, unemployment is still rising, so we shouldn’t do any more, or (2) the stimulus has succeeded, G.D.P. is growing, so we don’t need to do any more. Depends who he considers "we". There is certainly a third choice...tell the government to get the hades out of the way and let the country heal itself, which it has always done. You threaten businesses with higher taxes and complain at the lack of privates spending? You set the wheels in motion to insure unemployment will rise by going after all those "rich" guys you love to use as whipping boys and then bemoan the fact they are not hiring? You throw the country into a quadrupled national debt that won't be paid for generations and then whine that we're broke? I keep getting reminded of that famous painting of Emmet Kelly, the bum sitting on the curb, reading the Wall Street Journal. Keep telling everyone how the economy is rebounding, how better days are coming, how Obama's grand plans are working. They can read all about it while they're standing in the unemployment lines. When John Galt was told to fix the economy, he said "Easy...get out of our way." (to which the government replied, "Oh, no! We can't do that.") The lady was way ahead of her time. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
A year ago: quote: Her 'time' has been the last 30 years (including the Clinton years) of de-regulation and borrow and spend philosophy -- her place -- another planet called la-la land. ![]() More later..... Hope your 'recovery' is going faster and better than the economic one... Sunshine -- Stay Alive! ![]() |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You offer an editorial of a left-wing blogger as proof of....something? of the novelist-turned-barely-baked-philosopher Ayn Rand, whose concepts of "rational egoism" and "individualism" put the "R" in ruthless and have provided generations of gullible undergraduates an intellectual rationale for their lingering adolescent self-absorption. So easy for midgets to insult giants....nothing new here. I'll repeat my question since you didn't get around to it.... I don't understand. Didn't Obama assure us that, if congress passed his stimulus plan, unemployment would not pass 8.5%? Are you calling him either dumb or a liar? Must be one of the two.... |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: No. As I recall Christina Romer and Jared Bernstein made that particular estimate in a white paper released in January. . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Left wing, blogger, and midget are hardly the adjectives most would apply to Rutten Mike, although you're certainly entitled to your opinion. On the other hand -- I fail to see why a failed screenwriter who wrote a few best-selling novels qualifies as a 'giant' in the world of economics -- especially since she was no economist. I admit I find this as curious as people following L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology. But you miss the main point -- which is not Rutten's conclusions, with which I agree and have oft written similarly -- hence my posting them, but rather in his writing Greenspan's admission that his worldview (Rand's) had been mistaken: quote: Moreover -- I think most of the world missed that even the Bush Administration admitted the same: quote: Yet --as unemployment continues to rise -- you still want to give us the hair of the dog. Keep on wagging that. ![]() |
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Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I don't believe most people will voluntarily put their hand into a hot flame. Why? Because, sometime as a child, they learned it hurts. What would happen, though, if parents could turn off the pain centers in their child? Would the child ever learn to respond to fire appropriately? Personally, I don't think Greenspan or Rand were necessarily wrong. For self interest to rule, however, you have to be willing to let pain do its job. That's how people -- and institutions -- learn. A hands-off approach also means letting people fail. |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thank you, Ron. My point exactly.... |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Do you mean we should let the kids burn to death Ron? . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
http://www.childproofing.org/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007VWCLW http://babyparenting.about.com/od/healthandsafety/a/babyproofing.htm http://www.babycenter.com/0_childproofing-around-the-house_460.bc http://www.babypro.com/ http://www.safebeginnings.com/ http://www.childsafetytech.com/ http://www.babysupermall.com/main/browse/child-safety-devices.html The child that sticks his hand in the fire is, hopefully, supposed to learn two lessons; a.) Fire hurts b.) I should listen to mommy. Mommies and daddies are supposed to look after their children -- not give them matches and tell them to go out and play and catch the world on fire. Wall Street sneezes -- it's the rest of us that gets Swine Flu. Our pain centers are firing on all cylinders just fine. |
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Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Reb, I think you forgot the best one of all. The most effective child-proofing would be to keep them sleeping 24/7. ![]() Of course I don't mean we should let our children burn to death, Grinch. They won't learn anything from that, either. ![]() Kids, being kids, need to be protected from themselves. Kids, being kids, will suffer if protected too much. My earlier analogy was, of course, flawed in that rational adults aren't kids. So long as rational adults remain rational, they should be allowed to hurt themselves as much as they want. It's called making mistakes. Reb, I completely agree that sometimes when rational adults make mistakes it can hurt more than just themselves. Sometimes, a lot more. I'm not necessarily suggesting we should let Wall Street fail, I'm not suggesting the bailout was a mistake, and I'm not suggesting that government doesn't need to exercise restraint on Capitalism. All I'm saying is that a hands-off approach that fails because government stepped in shouldn't be an indictment of the approach. It simply wasn't allowed to run its course. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
The institution that makes such massive mistakes is gone. It has no institutional memory, therefore, with which to learn and correct itself. The method by which the market as a whole corrects itself is through institutions larger than the market that it can depend upon to exert corrective forces. That has meant governments and regulatory agencies thus far. With the coming of transnationals, it is unclear whether governmental regulation can or will work. I believe that it's worth a try. Government and regulation serve as the memory for markets. They are the way they remember that doing x means that everything goes bang. Otherwise, the market sees all that ripe fruit hanging temptingly just out of reach and forgets that it's poison. Brokers who haven't seen a recession or a depression can and do forget that the market can go any direction but up when the market has gone up for more than a generation worth of brokers.. Bankers and insurance agencies start to intermarry and produce — as President Bush was wont to say — human animal hybrids. Things get hideous. Some may hate regulation, but they forget that regulation is part of the market system and part of the market itself. It's part of how the market self regulates, if you'd rather think of it that way. And it's a necessary to the function of the market as predators are to the functioning of an ecology. No hunters, and what happens to the deer population? No regulation, and the same thing happens to the market. Government regulation keeps the growth steady and reasonably healthy. Getting rid of government regulation is probably a natural counte-rreaction as the market tries to escape feedback control. What you see about you now is what happens when too many controls have been taken off. It looks to me very much like what happens with the initial explosive population growth then crash when effective predation has been taken out of a population cycle. Hunters will be aware of this from hunting deer when they are serving as the institutional memory for a population (of deer) whose natural predators (wolves or the like) have been removed. Government regulation, I'd argue is part of the market, and not an outside force, as many of you have been saying that it is. That's my theory. It would suggest that everybody's right, but simply hasn't looked at the whole thing as a system, but only as a series of opposing forces. I'd suggest that all the pieces are necessary for the whole thing to function well. |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
What you see about you now is what happens when too many controls have been taken off. I would say just the opposite, Bob. Go back to when banks were basically forced to give loans without sufficient collateral which ultimately caused an avalanche of foreclosures and bankruptcies. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear LR, Interesting point of view from economics. I was looking at it in terms of the family therapy version of General Systems Theory and of ecology, though it's really remarkable how all these studies seem to end up talking about stuff with some of the same insights, though from somewhat different directions. General systems theory seems to offer the suggestion that the notion of looking for a instigator is a waste of time, which I find somewhat liberating. It's so easy to spend fruitless hours looking at who's to blame, and so difficult to figure out which point in the system is most accessible to strategies for change. And Mike, if you see things as being the other way around, I suspect that I haven't made myself clear. There is no one way for there to have another way around and more than you can argue that a four stroke engine should only have strokes one and two, and that strokes three and four are wrong headed and evil and for me to say that three and four are good but one and two are evil. It's a false understanding of the process, one which actually needs all four strokes for the engine to work as designed. It is not either free market or government controlled markets. It is that government controls have become something the market depends on to keep from going nuts. The free market uses governmental controls to serve as institutional memory of past disasters to keep an imperfect grip on the possibility of repeating them. It's useful that the grip be imperfect because the mistakes of the past may not turn out to be mistakes for all time, so there should be some push against the controls, but not so much that all safety or governance is taken off the system at once. If everything comes off all at once, then a positive feedback loop sends the economy into a too rapid expansion and a period of explosive (I think) inflation, leading to a recession or a depression, which puts the brakes on seriously until equilibrium is restored. That includes greater degrees of governmental regulation. I think this is probably descriptive of history as much as it is prescriptive, though I leave it to folks who know more about it than I do to correct me. Maybe you will. Maybe LR or Grinch. All my best, Bob Kaven |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
The problem with such contentions is that free markets appear to operate surprisingly well in the absence of government controls. The black market is alive and well. In my opinion, there's no such thing as removing "too many controls." There's only a danger of removing the wrong ones. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
In that way, the deregulation process seems to work like pick-up-sticks. There is a very straightforward way of discovering how much deregulation is enough, and that is what the system uses as a self-control mechanism at this point. Nobody likes it very much. The idea is to treat this sort of system like the system in a thermostat, so that one can arrange the cycle to range around a set point which can be moved up and down; and do so smoothly, without all the hard landings and crashes, shocks and bumps that seem to tag along with the cycle now. As a computer guy, Ron, you'd probably have a better understanding of self-regulating systems than I do. The question does seem to be which variables are the ones to regulate. Removing the wrong ones will set off the positive feedback loops that can tear a system apart so quickly, which is part of the problem with deregulation per se. Some the regulation keeps the system on track. The question is which that regulation may be. Interesting, isn't it? When you think about it, the Black Market is very much dependent on government controls to stabilize the price and demand for their product, and to keep the price artificially high. Without government regulation, many of the Black Marketeers would be forced from business, so the government creates a protected market for the product with room for the principles of Capitalism to flourish. These controls are sometimes called laws, and they are enforced by the police and sometimes the military powers of government. Depending on what the black market may be in, and what the actual demand may be, the Black Market substance may have to have more serious controls exerted upon it by having it legalized and taxed. This depends on how the government needs to deal with that market and how the market reflects on not simply the economics but, probably also the political legitimacy of the government. At any rate, I suggest that black markets seem to be controlled by government regulation and don't serve as a good example of a control free marketplace. Indeed, they are virtually a government subsidized market in many ways. Over time, the prices in the black market item will stabilize, and no matter how much extra the government spends on enforcement, the return for the government enforcement buck will seem minimal. Actually, it is because a set point will have been reached, and these set points are very difficult to change. This often works in other sorts of systems as well, such as weight maintainance. As a guy who is circumferentially challenged, I can speak to you with some authority on that subject. |
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