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Stupid is as Stupid does, Sir
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Stupid is as Stupid does, Sir |
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Ringo 
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes 
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It is no secret to any that have paid attention the past fe years that I am a died in the wool supporter of hating poor people... oh, I'm sorry... I meant to say Republican...yet this thing with John Kerry has me stumped for reasons passing political party lines. In case anyone missed it, he snapped a comment about the uneducated being stuck in Iraq, and now there is all sorts of political fall-out. He is saying he was misunderstood, and that it was a botched attempt at a joke on the President. Honestly, even though I am a Republican and should be estatic about this, I can honestly see where he was heading with it. My question/comment is: Why doesn't he just apologize and GET IT OVER WITH!!!!!!! The Republicans were hoping for an October Surprise, and he handed it to them. Had he apologized, and not been so arrogant and confrontational, it would have been over. You may burn my flag... only after you wrap yourself in it first. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I absolutely agree with you, Ringo, and though I've certainly never been a fan of Kerry or the Democratic Party establishment in general and do believe candidates of both parties DO say outrageous things they mean, like Howard Dean with the Democrats and Dick Cheney with the GOP, I respect you in that you've shown restraint from what others are doing in taking his words, taking them out of context and using them as a political football, and rather look at the common sense argument to why Kerry should apologize. What surprises me especially is that here we have a man known for his extensive, equivocal vocabulary and manner of talking, and yet he unnecessarily and incoherently addresses his thoughts here, which I find to be down-right embarrassing more than anything. Having said that, there are two things I want to point out here. WAVE 3 TV Louisville, Kentucky: October 31, 2006 Firstly, having just read what he was saying before this particular excerpt that has been subject of this controversy, I find it's plainly apparent that he was directing that comment at Bush, NOT the troops. That doesn't excuse him from that I find his comments equally as childish as those made by Bush and Rumsfeld about Iraq recently, but ever so often we fail to read around a particular comment to understand the general context of what one's saying, and when you read this, I find it quite clear Bush is the subject of ridicule, and NOT once does he denigrate the honor of our young men and women in uniform. Secondly, Kerry's actual joke was meant to be read like THIS: * I>"I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq." * I 100% agree Kerry should apologize, but NOT because he said anything offensive (he didn't) but simply because I believe it would be good for the American public in an already terrible dirty election season, and should be the common sense-minded thing to do more than anything. * As an aside, I ultimately think Kerry's comment won't affect the elections six days from now much except in boldening those intending to vote for the other party, as well as make a handful of swing voters nationally who were thinking about voting this season but heard childish words from both sides and then happen to experience blizzard weather on Election Day will decide to stay home, believing it's not worth it driving through the snow and waiting hours in the library just to vote for the lesser of two childish politicians. Both parties have their problems right now; the GOP is struggling with the issues of Iraq and a recent Foley scandal in particular, and the Democrats are seen widely as having no alternatives that would benefit the country, and because I believe the problems our nation is facing are so varied and culminated, this particular blurb will, in the end, have very limited effect, especially in that most voters will recognize Kerry is not up for re-election this season, and will reject the straw-man argument that the Democratic Party in general frowns upon our troops, when in fact both parties care and honor them very much despite some ideological disagreements. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Secondly, Kerry's actual joke was meant to be read like THIS: "I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq." Actually, Noah, that's about the third revision I've seen. Here's another one: Kerry told the students that if they studied hard they could do well, but if they didn't "you get stuck in Iraq." His office said he neglected to add the punch line: "Just ask President Bush." ]http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/11/1/120004.shtml?s=icp Kerry's office is trying so hard to cover it up they can't even get their stories straight. Why should anyone be surprised that Kerry would insult American troops? It's not the first time... WASHINGTON – In accusations about American troops reminiscent of what the young John Kerry said to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971, the senator and 2004 Democratic presidential nominee told CBS "Face the Nation" host Bob Schieffer there was no reason for U.S. soldiers to continue "terrorizing" Iraqi children. "And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the – of – the historical customs, religious customs," Kerry said Sunday. "Whether you like it or not ... Iraqis should be doing that." All of this, of course, pales in comparison to what he did to the troops in Viet-Nam. "They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals , cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side... We are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia." "The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history." A comprehensive 1980 survey by the VA reported that 91% of those who had seen combat in Vietnam were "glad they had served their country." 80% disagreed with the statement that "the U.S. took advantage of me." 66% said they would serve again. As to the effects of their service many said it made them more ambitious, more determined to make something of their lives, that it made them more serious and that they appreciated America more, valued life more. Does this sound like men who were "used?" http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040227123739537 Kerry was just telling it like it was, you may say? Oh, really....? Kerry described the Winter Soldier event in Detroit as “an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” The veterans, said Kerry, “had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.” He accused America of being "more guilty than any other body of violations of [the] Geneva Conventions; in the use of free-fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam." Kerry referred to war criminal Lt. William Calley as "a man who followed orders and who interpreted those orders no differently than hundreds of other men in Vietnam," and concluded by calling on his fellow veterans to "conquer the hate and the fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more." Most of Kerry's remarks before the committee were published later in 1971 in the book "The New Soldier," credited to “John Kerry and Vietnam Veterans Against The War.” The book also included a timeline and photographs of the march on D.C. and excerpts from the Winter Soldier testimony. A documentary of the Detroit event was later released as "Winter Soldier," winning awards at the Cannes and Berlin film festivals. Whether in print, on film, before microphones or on the street, the efforts of Kerry and the VVAW focused on a single objective: to convince the public that America’s military was committing vast numbers of atrocities in Vietnam; that they did so casually and routinely, as a matter of policy. And they succeeded. Many American soldiers returned home from the war to find they were spat upon in the streets, reviled as baby-killers, and treated as pariahs by former friends. For decades the standard media image of a Vietnam veteran -- murderous, addicted, and too damaged psychologically to cope with civilian life -- was taken directly from the dark canvas painted by John Kerry and the VVAW in 1971. But strangely, all those horrific accounts of rape, torture, arson and slaughter that the VVAW had recorded in Detroit seemed to evaporate once the real investigation demanded by Senator Hatfield began. As recounted in Guenter Lewy's 1978 book “America in Vietnam,” few witnesses agreed to talk with military investigators, even after being assured that they would not be asked about their own crimes. Many of those who did permit interviews turned out never to have been in combat. Some of the most gruesome claims came from men who were imposters using the names of real Vietnam veterans. One Marine who had been in combat eventually told investigators that a member of the Nation of Islam had helped prepare his statement, and admitted that he had never witnessed any of the atrocities he had testified to in Detroit. In the end, the Navy was unable to verify any of the hundreds of war crimes alleged by the Winter Soldier Investigation. Neither has anyone else during the 33 years since, including journalists, historians, and military and Congressional investigators. In fact, the entire Winter Soldier Investigation that John Kerry represented so memorably before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee was a fraud; a propaganda effort designed to horrify America into abandoning the war in Vietnam by poisoning public opinion against a generation of American soldiers. ]http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20031112091257277 As one of those soldiers who returned, Noah, I can assure you we all despise Kerry for the reception we received. In Pelosi's comment about calling Bush and Congress "criminals", you stated there was nothing wrong with that and you defend and excuse Kerry's remarks while proclaming your non-biased political stance. Please...... Kerry screwed up....period. He opened his mouth and shoved his foot so far down shoeleather touched his testicles. All he had to do was apologize and it would have gone away. Instead he decides not to apologize and go on the attack to cover his own screw-up with insults and name-calling which does nothing more than make matters worse. This is the man who would have been President? Now THAT'S scary!  |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I 100% agree Kerry should apologize, but NOT because he said anything offensive (he didn't)... I see, Noah. So you are saying that (by your revision presented) that calling Bush a non-studier, dumb and intellectually lazy is not offensive. Listen to yourself, sir.... Our troops are plenty smart... Bush Now THAT'S priceless!  |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
I think that the facts would bear out what Kerry said if he had not gone back and edited what he said, in that our military is comprised primarily of kids who have not been privileged and look to their participation in the military as a way to advance their education. There is some truth to that. Where he was stupid was first of all making that comparison to start with and then trying to alter his words. Obviously, Bush received the finest education money could buy unless Yale doesn't count. Whether he uses that education effectively is another question. If Kerry had wanted to insult Bush's intelligence, there are a myriad of different ways he could have done it. Let's hope Kerry doesn't decide to run for President. If he should apologize, it should be for changing his statement and then explain with the facts what he really meant to say. I suspect he was really trying to be honest with the crowd he was addressing and encourage them toward higher education and seriousness in their studies; he was just stupid in his approach. For that, he should apologize. If he was going to use the military as the example; he should have said that it was an alternative for training and education and that those were the choices of young people today and then ask them which alternative they would prefer. However, I think this is all too much to do about nothing -- and I doubt seriously that it will have a major impact on the election. Afterall, he is not on the ballot and the candidates have a week to distance themselves from what he said. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, and they are distancing themselves pretty quickly. Several have denounced his comments and asked him not to appear for them to the point he stated on Imus he was leaving the campaign trail and going back to Washington so as not to interfere with campaigns. if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? Kerry our military is comprised primarily of kids who have not been privileged and look to their participation in the military as a way to advance their education. Iliana You'll have to explain to me, Iliana, how you got your words out of his comment. You have missed your calling  There may be some flying ketchup bottles in the Kerry household tonight! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Tony Snow summed it up best... "This should not be hard," Snow said. "Everybody in public life has said something they wish they could take back. You simply apologize." Obviously, Kerry cannot do that gracefully. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
The bottom line here is, I believe the vast majority of Americans disenchantingly accept that mis-statements, malapropisms and tongue-slips are ubiquitous in politics, from all ends of the spectrum, and essentially all sides are going to take advantage of others' gaffes, which can also often lead to greater misunderstanding. And I strongly reject those claims that Kerry has ever denigrated the honor of our young men and women, and I would urge everyone here to listen to his testimony at the 1971 Winter Soldier hearings in its entire duration, where I find it clear his outrage was directed at the government and leading generals who left them stranded in the horrors of war, NOT the troops themselves. I believe his outrage here is directed at just that; the administration. And believe me, I too can pull out specific quotes from it that would illustrate that. White House Transcript: July 2, 2003, President Bush Names Randall Tobias to be Global AIDS Coordinator Remember all the fuss some of Bush's staunchest opponents and detractors were making on July 2, 2003 when Bush responded to reports that militias were responsible for the killing of many of our young men and women in Iraq by saying, "My answer is, 'Bring them on!'" That made me sick as well and I condemned how some took his words and made wild allegations that Bush wants all our troops killed in Iraq, when in fact, it is more than immediately obvious when you read his entire press conference at the link above (and you shouldn't even have to read it to understand what he meant) to understand he clearly meant going after the enemy responsible for the deaths, NOT bringing our own troops on. Again, I 100% believe Kerry should apologize because it's the decent thing to do during a dirty election season, but this taking-out-of-context game is just that crazy in my opinion. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, why don't you go back and read what I said again. I don't think you understand, or else maybe you were trying to twist things around again. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
The veterans, said Kerry, “had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.” Noah, I could care less about those claims you reject. Read the words, for God's sake! You are going to tell someone who went through it and returned home to it, which all happened before you were even born, that it's all untrue??? Those words weren't really his words....or those words didn't really mean what they said? If you want to go all out defending this cretin, fine, but don;t try to preach to us that poor Kerry was simply misunderstood. Try telling that to the vietnam vets that burn him in effigy. You are swimming in waters you know nothing about, sir,and you are trying to pull up quotes and commentaries as a substitute for the experience you did not have, having not even been born yet. Debate it with other teens and you can all come up with your own philosophies. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I suspect he was really trying to be honest with the crowd he was addressing and encourage them toward higher education and seriousness in their studies; Yes, Iliana, he was encouraging them toward higher education by holding the threat of going to Iraq over their heads like a sword....be careful or you may become a soldier! Maybe you're right. If a mother tells her small son to clean up his roomor she will throw him down the stairs, perhaps that could be called encouraging him to be neat. In that case, Kerry gave an encouraging speech.  |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, your attitude about my comment baffles me. I was not taking up for him. My statements were an interpretation of what I believe he was trying to say. Perhaps you are a little over-sensitive on this issue? Not that you don't have a right to be. The truth is that very few college aged kids want to go to war, want to be put in harms way, and I bet he thought he could relate to them by saying this. It is disappointing that he brought this up at at all; maybe he is getting senile and reverting back to his days post-Viet Nam. At any rate, as a veteran himself, if he meant his statement the way you suggest, then he was classifying himself, as well...and I don't believe he would call himself intellectually lazy. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Just released -- Kerry has apologized to our troops saying he never intended it to be about them. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
You're certainly correct in that Vietnam began approximately twenty years before my birth, and thus I understand your sentiments that I will never authentically understand the more aesthetic and emotional impacts of that era. What I am gauging my previous response on was hearing the official, undoctored 1971 Winter Soldier hearing address as it is, as well as reading the whole transcript of it, and just as any scholar or critical thinker does with any body of text, perform a "close read" chronologically from beginning to end. With respect, sir, I don't see Kerry specifically at any given point in the address assert anything along the lines of, "Our young men and women in uniform are responsible for all that destruction in Vietnam done in a fashion reminiscent of Gengis Khan." or "Nothing but our troops are to blame!" for the atrocities. If you desire, we could close-read and analyze every single passage here and discuss the hearing, but ultimately I think it just won't change anyone's mind in the end, simply because sometimes things are interpreted differently among individuals, whether it be previously held beliefs, ideals, or just intuition speaking. You're truly entitled to your interpretation of the hearing, which I respect, and I am entitled to mine. I do stand by how I interpret the hearing, but every now and then it never hurts to share differing interpretations and discuss them. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I wonder if Kerry will apply for another purple heart after THIS self-inflicted wound. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Iliana, I'm afraid you are right. I'm a little too close to this subject. Normally it's a topic I do my best to avoid. I know that you were not taking up for Kerry. You are more inclined to gie him the benefit of the doubt than I am, but you are entitled to do so. Noah, I can see that my comment to you was snappy and I apologize for that, also. Kerry's actions both in Viet Nam and post-Viet Nam are so despicable to me that I can't discuss him objectively. Sorry about that........ |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, I'm sure he will, Pete....another medal he can throw away which will find it's way onto his living room wall along with the others... |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
How gladly With proper words The soldier dies if he must Or lives On the bread Of faithful speech Wallace Stevens It must be appreciated for what and whom a young man or woman risks life. If he or she can not believe the possible sacrifice is valued then why shouldn’t they be back home in front of the TV with the rest of us? John |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Personally I will respect the man that honors his oponent. I am yet to see that in the political arena. Hence my stance. -Juju -Juju |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Looks like the soldiers have responded to Kerry:  |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Looks like you beat me to it Mike. I just got in to show that same photo. Of all the answers, this one is no doubt the best. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
If I may, I'd like to take a moment to ask those who fervently believe Kerry was intending to attack our troops with his words what they have to say about what John Boehner said on CNN's Wolf Blitzer yesterday (Video is available in the second link below) * http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/01/shifting.blame/ http://mediamatters.org/items/200611020011 "In an interview Wednesday on CNN, Boehner said, "Let's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld." CNN's Wolf Blitzer replied, "But he's in charge of the military." "The fact is, the generals on the ground are in charge, and he works closely with them and the president," Boehner, an Ohio Republican, said." * Now, in my opinion, I DON'T believe Bohener was intentionally at all suggesting all our troops are to blame for all that has gone wrong in Iraq. However, what I am curious about here is why he even bothered to start the exchange by saying "Let's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld..." and the very next thing he says is that the generals on the ground are in change. My question to those who do believe Kerry WAS finger-pointing at our troops is what you think about what Bohener said here. Don't you agree that some who sees and hears how closely those two statements are can too easily be lead to believe he IS blaming our troops, specifically our generals, for Iraq's problems? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! What a surprise Democrats wouldlook for something - anything - to offset the Kerry fiasco. Nice to see you picking up the Democratic line, Noah, but it ain't gonna fly. First, you don't evade responsibility by finger-pointing somewhere else. You would think they would have learned that lesson from all the times Clinton tried that tactic. Second, if you want to claim he blamed the generals, fine. To make the claim he blamed the "troops" by referring to the generals is so weak it borders on the ridiculous. Kerry insulted every soldier in Iraq - no, in the service, just as he condemned every soldier in Viet-Nam of barbarism. Not even a decent try, Noah. Dean and the other brainless wonders who have come up with this retaliatory attempt to take the heat off Kerry will find that their effort will do more harm than good because it comes across to be exactly what it is....a pathetic attempt to save their butts and nothing more. You seem to be very eager to join them, Noah, and absolve Kerry by any means. May you all be very happy together in your attempts. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Trying to change the subject, Noah? All right, it does sound like he is blaming the generals. That is a long way from calling the foot soldiers stupid or uneducated though. We all make dumb remarks sometimes. This is particularly true of politicians. When one of those comments injures another, an apology is due. If it had been anyone except Kerry, I would quickly agree that he simply botched the joke. Even if you accept what he claims to have intended, it's still pretty hard to stretch that as a joke with Bush as the butt. Considering Kerry's past history of disdain for the common soldier, it does seem likely that he intended it exactly as it came out. Even giving the benefit of the doubt to Kerry that he was poking fun at the president and not the military, why did it take him two days to finally make a half-assed apology. He didn't apologize for what he said but for being misunderstood and even then did it on his web site instead of announcing it publicly. First he made it "crystal clear" that he was not going to apologize to anyone. Then after enough pressure from other democrats, he folded and made that weak excuse of an apology. Is that just one more Kerry FLIP-FLOP? Damn, it's a blessing that he lost in '04. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
BTW, if Dean or anyone so eager to dodge blame for Kerry's screw-up were not so blinded by their rush to shift judgement, they would realize that there is nothing similar between the two statements. One blames generals for actions in Iraq. The other claims that, if you don't or are too lazy to get an education, you might be sent to Iraq which, by inference, insults the soldiers there. Where in the world is the comparison? Now, if the fellow would have said,"If you don't go to college or are too lazy to study, the army might make you a general", then you would have a basis for compatison. Look at the sign the soldiers are holding up, Noah. That says it all. Tell THEM Kerry's words were not insulting. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Noah, my friend, I have to side with the others on this one. THe generals in the field are more responsible for the war than any one individual elsewhere. While the President normally just makes the statement "We are going into (country) and our goal is to (desired result)", it is left to the Joint Chief's to decide how to deploy the various resources. Once that decision is made, it is the leadership in theater that makes the decisions on how the war is fought. If you would like, pass the blame around and give some to the President, and the SecDef, and the Joint Chiefs.. I will help you to do so. The fact of the matter is, the generals are mostly to blame, as he said. I will give you the analogy I gave you when the Abu Grabe thing happened. The Superintendant of a school system decides that the curriculum of the US History class needs to be changed to include more of the Populist movement... He does not decide what specific ways the class needs to be taught, or what specific examples to use, or what specific tests to be given. He leaves that to the Principals and the Teachers... the leaders in the trenches, so to speak. Same thing here. While the Superintendant is ultimately responsible (as I believe the President, and SecDef, and others are) it is the Generals on the ground that are making the majority of the important decisions on how the war gets fought. Now... having said that... Bringing up something like that to attempt to take the attention off the John Kerry incident is as partisan, and as petty and as petulant as anyone could possibly be. This is akin to a child telling his mother that he is sorry that he got caught calling his sister names, and that he shouldn't be punished because his brother was climbing a tree. No, it didn't make sense, and that was the point. You may burn my flag... only after you wrap yourself in it first. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Does anyone else not see the irony in all of your comments? Not the tinman, not the lion. The strawman? http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/ |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Thanks, Brad. I'm glad there are still a few people familiar with the Constitution. You know what, Brad? Wonder if anyone has ever read the Declaration of Independence? I'm totally baffled why people are not talking more about what is really going on in this country -- is it because everyone is afraid or are they just too thick or stubborn to see it; or maybe just too busy earning a living? Keith Olbermann shows no fear....one of the few public journalists who doesn't...it's worth searching out what he has to say about the situation; you can find several video clips of him on the net if you do a search addressing these issues. Personally, I think John Boehner of Ohio just passed the buck...to me, that shows little backbone for a guy in line to be speaker of the house. I could take a position that maybe he was just trying to say that there is more than one person on the team; after all he is a jock. But, talk about inarticulate (if that's what he meant). Is it a disease that is catching....I mean....Bush....then Kerry....and now Boehner....lol! Or, are all their misstatements merely freudian slips? And, if the generals are in charge and the mess in Iraq is their fault, well isn't there a Commander-in-Chief over them? And isn't that where the buck stops?Gee, I wonder how Boenher's statement resonated with the generals. [This message has been edited by iliana (11-02-2006 11:28 PM).] |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
what was that link supose to mean. -Juju |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
The bottom line is Kerry screwed up ... big time! He gave the Republicans fodder when the Republicans were in trouble, thereby helping the Republican cause. No doubt, if Clinton was in Kerry's shoes, he would NOT of screwed up like Kerry. All this goes to show that Kerry isn't the man for the White House either. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Yeah, I thought Tillman did that quite well. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I believe my previous comment was largely misinterpreted. The question I was posing to those who are accusing Kerry of troop-bashing was NOT whether Boehner was doing likewise or not, as I explicitly stated in the previous comment that I DON'T believe he was doing that at all on Wolf Blitzer's program. The question I DID pose was that, if Kerry's comment could be approached that way by merely close-reading the particular quotation selected and dis-regarding the rest of the transcript, doesn't it also make sense that when Boehner's particular comment is close-read as it is without regard to the rest of the transcript that his comment TOO could be interpreted another way? I assure you my purpose in bringing up Bohener's example was not to stray from the topic at hand, but rather consider the general point in how people's words can so easily be taken out of context, and in considering how we approach this dilemma and train to read around the specific comment by considering what was said before and after, and recognizing the greater context. That's the whole point I was making to begin with; I believe BOTH these individual's words have been taken out of context, and when stones are cast and accusations are made that sprout from such misunderstanding, I for one believe it is a most unfortunate and even dangerous thing. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I believe Kerry's comment won't affect the elections five days from now, except in boldening those that were already very much intending to vote for the other party, and possibly make a few swing voters nationally who were thinking about voting this season but heard childish words from both sides and then happen to experience blizzard weather on Election Day decide to stay home, believing it's not worth it driving through the snow and waiting hours in the library just to vote for the lesser of two childish politicians. The fact is, both parties have their problems right now; the GOP is struggling with the issues of Iraq and a recent Foley scandal in particular, and the Democrats are seen widely as wanting to raise taxes and having no specific alternatives that would benefit the country, and because I believe the problems our nation is facing are so varied and culminated, this particular blurb will, in the end, hardly do anything, especially in that voters will recognize Kerry is not up for any sort of re-election this season, and will reject the straw-man argument that the Democratic Party in general frowns upon our troops, when in fact both parties care and honor them very much despite some ideological disagreements. I believe the American public is smarter than the straw-man arguments both sides project in the media environment. Most voters recognize John Kerry is a Democrat, but his views are his own, not representative of the whole Democratic party, just like Mark Foley is a Republican, but his views are his own, not representative of the entire Republican party. I believe the vast majority of voters will unanimously understand that, even if they thought what Kerry said was insensitive, will reject the straw-man that all Democrats think like him, just like even if they took offense over Foley's AIM conversations, will reject the straw-man that all Republicans are involved in these sorts of things, and vote based on their opinions toward the candidates in their own state or district, NOT based on an out-of-state individual not up for re-election. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
There is one small thing that I have a challenge with in regards to Kevin Tillman's post on the page you gave us: quote: This country is NOT, as we are taught in school, a democracy. The United States, on a national level, is a flat out Republic, wherein the people elect those that make the decisions. A minor point, possibly; however, a common misconception. Actually, I ahve a couple of challenges with Mr. Tillman's post, yet they don't really have to do with the thread at hand, so I'll leave them out of my reply. As for John Boehner passing the buck: It isn't his to pass. Rep. Boehner stands absolutely nowhere in the chain of command for the miltary. While he can take no credit for any of the good that is being done in Iraq, he cannot- by the same token- be handed any blame for anything that people don't like about the war. He was, very simply, stating the facts as he (and many others) see it: the leadership on the ground usually has more to do with the way a war if fought than some politician who sits in an ivory tower 10,000 miles away. While Rep. Boehner placed the blame on the leadership, Sen. Kerry appeared to place a sweeping generality on the service members around the world. Once Rep. Boehner made his statement, the Democratic leadership immediately jumped on it and accused him of blaming the troops for the failures and downturns in the war. As Noah is asking us to fully read Sen. Kerry's statements from 1971, I am asking you to read Rep. Boehner's statement again. He said (among other things): "The fact is, the generals on the ground are in charge...". Now, ppossibly the fact that I am a Marine, and (impending gratuitous dig) part of the uneducated masses, I cannot truly understand a man's words when he states them, yet it seems to me that he very specifically does NOT blame the troops, but rather the leadership. What Sen. Dean and others are doing is attempting to is to shift the focus away from Sen. Kerry, andplace it back on the Republicans in an attempt to do a bit of damage control... thereby bringing the troops back into the picture, just as Sen. Kerry was accused of doing. As far as Sen. Kerry's "apology"... Oh, puh-leez. He apologized for being mis-interpreted. Perhaps my parents were a bit too strict, yet if I apologized to them for them thinking I had said something wrong, instead of apologizing for saying it, then it would not have been a fun time on the old homestead. The apology would not have been accepted, as it would not have been sincere. quote: ACtually, yes, I have... and I am wondering what it has to do with the current flap. The Declaration of Independene was very simply a list of greivances the colonies had against their King and stated the fact that the separate colonies were (in the immortal words of Jeff Spicoli) "going to have to get some cool rules of their own." As you brought this document into the picture, there are several ways that it can be taken, which can also be used to prove the point that what people say is very much open to misuse, and use for someone's own evil intent: Quote 1) "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. " Actually that is what we are supporting in Iraq. The previous government was denying that, and we stepped in to help them regain these freedoms. Quote 2) "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." Does that mean you are suggesting that the people iverthrow the current government because it is, in your thoughts destructive of these ends?" NO, of course, not. I do not for a second believe that... HOWEVER, that is the very thing that is being done, here, with both Sen. Kerry and Rep. Boehner: their words are being used in a way that was never meant, and being interpreted by someone in the worst possible way to attack them. As my friend Noah has stated, Both of these men's words were taken for a ride by political operatives who had an agenda of their own that had nothing to do with the best interests of anyone other than themselves. I stated in my opening post for this thread that I believe Sen. Kerry was actually making (well, attempting to make) a joke at the President's expense. The Republicans used it to boost their flagging poll numbers and to assist with their chances in the upcoming elections. Rep. Boehner made a statement that placed the failures of the war flat on the generals on the ground, and Sen. Dean (among others) immediately used it in a weak attempt to score very cheap political points. It all boils down to my original premise: Senator John Kerry should have immediately apologized for mis-speaking himself, as most responsible adults would have done, and thbis entire thing would have been over with, and the Republicans would not have been given anything to deal with. Something along the lines of: "I was very simply attempting to make a comment about the President's policies in Iraq, and did so very badly. I certainly meant no disrespect to any of our men and women in uniform, and regret any implication that I did." Now, Mr. Kerry... How friggin' hard was that? You may burn my flag... only after you wrap yourself in it first. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Leave it to Brad.....a few cryptic words people are supposed to figure out, a link to a radical left-wing website, and then a retreat back to nowhere. Nice to see you haven't lost your touch, brad. Or, are all their misstatements merely freudian slips? And, if the generals are in charge and the mess in Iraq is their fault, well isn't there a Commander-in-Chief over them? Well, hey, that's right, Iliana,so that must mean that everyone who has criticized Bush or called him names must actually be belittling every member of the military. Will every Democrat in Congress and every citizen in the country against Bush line up please? Can't you see how ridiculous the example Noah agrees with, and which you support, is? You all are acting just like Kerry. All he had to do was say, "Oops....that didn't come out right". It wouldn't have dismissed it completely due to his history of bashing soldiers but the incident would have died very quickly. All you, noah, or the democrats off on their new retaliatory witchhunt, had to say was, "Oops, Kerry screwed up." and that would have ended it, also. Kerry was not smart enough to do so and, apparently, he has a lot of company. So, by all means, keep citing the Declaration and looking for directions in which to point fingers. It just keeps it alive and makes the Democratic party look more ridiculous. Is it a disease that is catching....I mean....Bush....then Kerry....and now Boehner....lol! It's appropriate that you put a lol at the end. That attempt is comical, at best. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
One thing which hasn't quite been touched up on regarding Kerry's embarrassing joke-failure is how, ultimately, it brings the issue of Iraq back to center-stage. Semi-ironically, the interesting thing about this whole Kerry gaffe debate is that ultimately, it's quite likely going to hurt the White House and the GOP more, in that it forces the Iraq war debate back into the headlines, which is an issue unfavorable for the GOP this election season, where polls indicate support for both the war and the handling of it at all-time lows, 70% believing the president has no plan for victory, and a slight majority believing it's separate from the war on terror. Obviously, a vast majority of the time gaffes hurt the individual's own party. But here we have a case where while the gaffe may damage the individual, it also pulls with him a wider issue into the public eye that hurts otherwise. It's kind of like what happened with a recent Bob Corker ad in Tennessee, which accused his challenger Harold Ford Jr. of sleeping with Playboy bunnies and such. Although one poll I saw revealed 77% of Americans believing that ad was over the line, it actually ended up hurting Ford Jr. more because the ad was successful in one way; distracting him from speaking about faith and the issues on the campaign trail, and forcing him on the defense. So really, if I were the White House, I WOULDN'T continue to be trying to push this Kerry issue out there, because I believe they realize continuing to harp on this will only bring the Iraq War back into the spotlight, which voters identify as THE top issue in the polls, especially when Tony Snow already commended Kerry for his apology, and if I were a GOP strategist, I would suggest going on the offense on the economy issue, where Bush's numbers on that issue have improved considerably in recent weeks. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Thank you Brad, for I had not read the Tillman article. Kerry was careless and stupid. War is not a joking matter. But his words are forever doomed to be twisted in gnarly mindless semantics, because of political agendas. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Ringo, just to clarify -- I was not at all referring to the team as meaning all the troops. What I was referring to was generals, secretary of defense, joint chiefs of staff and the Commander in Chief -- the leadership. I am correct in saying the buck stops with the President. That is where it stops period. Mike, yes, you are right, it was a terrible joke -- that was the point. I want to ask you point blank, are you in favor of our Constitution being destroyed? I have to wonder about your stance there because by your continued suggestions that anyone who is trying to defend it is a liberal or a Democrat. I think you are very, very mistaken to call us that and try to give it a negative spin -- several of us are neither, but even if we were, your bias against those words nullifies your arguments -- we just care about how this country is going to be for our children and our grandchildren. We hope they still have the same freedoms and prosperities that we have experienced. You have to be kidding about Rep. Boehner not having any responsibility. Our Congress does have responsibility to keep in check the office of the Presidency (and his administration). It is they who vote for war or give the President his power. There is inherent responsibility with the office. And I can say with full confidence, if things were going well in Iraq, the honorable Rep. Boehner would most certainly take credit for it as a Republican thing! [This message has been edited by iliana (11-03-2006 06:33 PM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Undoubtedly true, but, were the war going well there would be a plethora of Democrats who voted (to give the President the option, ahem --nearly all of them)clamoring to say me too... me too. Politicians get used to talking to the people in the room and forget that when cameras are rolling they are talking to the world in essence. Maybe Kerry misspoke. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt... but, let's not mistake what his political objective was here -- to focus all the attention on himself -- and to play to the anti-war base and try to become the voice of that group as he's wrangling for another Dem nomination for Pres... On the upside -- it looks like in 2008 we won't be choosing between Freddy and Jason as Obama keeps gaining ground as does Giulliani... I could possibly feel Ok about voting for either one of these guys... but... The advantage Obama has is that he has no record...which is a disadvantage for us who have to decide. The advantage Giulliani has is a great record -- but, his disadvantage is the 'same old gaurd' are likely to follow him right back into the White House.. we'll see... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: C'mon, Mike, do I really have to explain the Wizard of Oz to you? quote:. Are you kidding? Kerry is a target of hatred because he is perceived as bashing soldiers in Vietnam. Nothing he will ever say will change that perception. Okay, maybe, a Horowitz conversion or something like that, but then that wouldn't be Kerry. Personally, this whole thing reminds me of the N word scandal. Edit: apparently the word used is no long allowed on this forum.  PC whining at its best. But it's good to get back to the petty bickering with Mike. It feels like home again. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Semi-ironically, the interesting thing about this whole Kerry gaffe debate is that ultimately, it's quite likely going to hurt the White House and the GOP more, in that it forces the Iraq war debate back into the headlines, Noah, I'm not sure what is happening wherever you live but I can assure you the Iraq is in the headlines every day in Florida - and on the national evening news. Back into the headlines? Show me a day where it has left. Maybe Kerry misspoke. That's quite a consession, LR! You have to be kidding about Rep. Boehner not having any responsibility. we just care about how this country is going to be for our children and our grandchildren. We hope they still have the same freedoms and prosperities that we have experienced. Good for you, Iliana, but what in the world does that have to do with Kerry's remark? That's right - not a thing. I want to ask you point blank, are you in favor of our Constitution being destroyed? Well, I guess you found me out. I have been on a mission my whole life to be certain that the constitution would go down in flames. I joined the service to infiltrate the Pentagon and went to Viet Nam because I heard it was a good place to meet girls. What I would respond to you "point blank" in answer to your question would not be allowed to be printed in these hallowed halls. I will simply take your question as an indication that we have had enough interraction. Rebel, I would say Obama has a shot. Basically, he is a Clinton type. I don't mean that in a negative way. What I mean is that no one really knows if he would be good at it or not but he has the type of personality that would receive a lot of votes. Clinton proved that a good amount of charisma can get you in the Oval office. He will have to remind Ted Kennedy not to call him Osama anymore, though |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. We recently had someone at our venue who said something not all that popular. He said we have an enemy and he’s trying to kill us. I wonder if all this is not degrees of inability to believe or grasp that? Josephus remarked that, during the siege of Jerusalem, the Jews loosed more arrows on each other than they did on the Romans outside their walls. It is a historical fact that Jews rounded up and led Jews to the cattle cars that took them to the gas chambers because most refused to believe what awaited them at the end of the line. All this argument while a whole different way of thinking presses in. . |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, I apologize if you were offended. I figured you would answer, "of course not." But instead, so much cynicism. I asked you the question so you would stop for a minute and think about how the rest of us feel when we are accused of being left wing liberals with the insinuation we are not patriotic. Also, Mike, this statement of mine, "You have to be kidding about Rep. Boehner not having any responsibility. Our Congress does have responsibility to keep in check the office of the Presidency (and his administration). It is they who vote for war or give the President his power. There is inherent responsibility with the office. And I can say with full confidence, if things were going well in Iraq, the honorable Rep. Boehner would most certainly take credit for it as a Republican thing! was in response to something Ringo had written regarding Boehner's responsibility. And this statement of mine: "...we just care about how this country is going to be for our children and our grandchildren. We hope they still have the same freedoms and prosperities that we have experienced" -- and then your response: "Good for you, Iliana, but what in the world does that have to do with Kerry's remark? That's right - not a thing" HAS EVERTHING TO DO WITH your comment earlier accusing me of acting like Kerry or being a left winger or a Democrat (which I am NOT!!!). If anything, I am an old-fashioned fiscal conservative, moderate Republican (except for affirming the death sentence) who believes in limited federal government and more states' rights (and responsibilities) and who has been disappointed with Republican candidates for 20 odd years. We've been over this before. The very definition of moderate Republican has been terribly distorted over the past two decades and misrepresented by people who claim to be moderate but are actually very radical, particularly with regard to fiscal policy and expansion of federal control with it reaching its fingers into every avenue of our existence. Ringo, I wanted to thank you for pointing out that this is a republic...something my son and I were discussing just last week and so many people don't realize it. No matter what you Mike (or you Ringo) may think of my views on politics, rest assured I prayed every night for your (meaning all servicemen/women) safety whether you were in Viet Nam or serving this nation in armed conflict elsewhere and have always honored and prayed for our servicemen/women and their families. And, Ringo, my first husband was a Marine, too. I did his stint with him and it was during the Viet Nam War. Huan Yi, you made your point very well. [This message has been edited by iliana (11-04-2006 05:03 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I don't think so. Oh, the sentiment is fine. I'm sure there are people out there who would like to kill 'us'. I'm sure some of 'us' would like to kill 'them'. I'm sure some of 'us' would like to kill 'us'. But other than 'be prepared' what other response is possible? I don't have time, I wish I did, to go into a detailed discussion here but Orwellian doesn't have to play with opposites, it simply confuses the general with the specific. It is the propogation of fear without a target. What's the word for that? |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I find irony in Kerry's statement. It was a very stupid statement. Irregardless of what he ment, I could out of amusement point out times were (you know who you are) took bush comments that were mispronunciations and though you know what he meant. It was just a stupid comment by Bush. some went farther (you know who you are) and said that it was poof of his intelligence. I am not defending Bush. Just amused. -Juju |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
It's no concession Mike. Merely my opinion. What is it exactly that you think I've conceded? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Maybe Kerry misspoke. I just found it interesting, LR, that no one seems to think Kerry did not misspeak with his verbal missed field goal - not even any Democrat, including Pelosi or Clinton, not any newspaper, not even anyone here in this discussion - not even Kerry himself - and yet you would still choose to preface your comment with "maybe", as if acknowledging that fact would be too much of a concession to make. Just found your choice of words to be curious, that's all. Welcome back, Brad  [This message has been edited by Balladeer (11-04-2006 10:16 AM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Oh, I think the Dems are more than happy to see John sit down and shut up. I can't know that it was a mis-statement. It's more plausible than Allen's Maccacca statement. But even the official 'text' wouldn't have been a great 'joke'. Humor is hard. Amateurs shouldn't try it. If they do -- they have to make sure the joke is on themselves. In the end -- it turned out to be. Except for the guffaws I howled when GW, in response, said that a leader has to know that the words he chooses are important. Yeah! That's right Mr. President... our boys on that CRUSADE need to know that we support them.  |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
Quote 1) "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. " Actually that is what we are supporting in Iraq. The previous government was denying that, and we stepped in to help them regain these freedoms. OH Really, is it our place to do so? I do not think so. Who made the U.S world police? THat may be our contsitution, OUR constitution not theirs that was not at all up to us. Also note to Huan Yi, it was the nazi's who rounded up the jews, not jews who rounded up jews. Personally I am a democrat, and I am really sick and tired of seeing Kerry open his mouth and just plunge my party deeper into trouble. I think most of my party and AMerica wouldn't mind if he shut up. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
quote: THe WORLD made the United States the World's police. Going back to before the modern war era that every child is suppposed to learn about in shcool ,it has fallen to the United States (along with the help of others) to police the world's shores. A few examples: From 1898-1934 American Military personnel (mostly Marines) were stationed in several Cental American and Carribean nations to maintain the peace and to educate the population in an event known as the Banana Wars. In 1990, the Chinese had themselves a little conflict that became known as the Boxer Rebellion. America, in addition to the Austrians, Germans, Italians, French,and Russians were sent to ensure the epace and maintain the safety of the Chinese people from, mostly in the end, the Japanese. The Americans were among the last of the foriegn troops to leave Chinese soil. Getting to the more "popular" American history, WWI was initially ignored by the American government, who were adopting a position of neutrality. The rest of the Allied Powers kept insisting that the Americans enter the war to Defeat Germany, which we eventually did. In WWII ,we were fighting in Europe to defeat (mainly) Germany, who was (among other things) treating their citizens (the Jews) by raping, killing, torturing, robbing, etc. The Japanese front actually had it's basis in the 30's and before with the Japanese doing the same to anyone in Asia who would not join their "organization". Korea, we foguht to protect South Korea from the Aggressive members of their contry (the North Koreans) In Vietnam, American Soldiers spent as much time defending the citizens from the VC as they did fighting. History has shows us, over and over, to be the world's police going back to before the beginning of the 20th century. quote: Who was it turning the Jews into the Germans? You may burn my flag... only after you wrap yourself in it first. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Scary thought, the responsibility we place upon ourselves. The holocaust... is it so relevant? There is a holocaust occurring right now in North Korea. We will not come to the aide of them. Its a haunting thought, that a people’s hope is in the US to save them, when we are such a self absorbed nation. The responsibility. The responsibility. They superman is not invincible, but real tough. Some how this thread went to Kerry's remark to superman metaphore. -Juju |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “But other than 'be prepared' what other response is possible?” And where in a country that could not stop illegal immigrants, (who want no more than a job), from crossing its borders in the millions, in a country that can not stop heroin from crossing the world to within sight of schoolyards in Chicago, do you propose to build the Maginot Line? What kind of society would you then have in such a fortress? Is citizen automatic weapon armed Israel, (which, for all their efforts, exists because of us; the Jihadists know that), the guide? Or should preparation be in the form of emergency wards, hospitals, and an expertise in sifting and identifying body parts from the rubble, all the time beating our breasts moaning Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa? The lions will eat you just the same. rhia_5779 “Also note to Huan Yi, it was the nazi's who rounded up the jews, not jews who rounded up jews.” You are wrong. In the Warsaw Ghetto until there was left but the few who would fight, the Nazis informed the Jewish leadership within as to how many were to be transported and that leadership using Jewish police rounded up those they decided who were to go. There is for me, (who is a descendent from that history), a painful photograph of a line of those policemen, (given authority and designated by their arm bands), walking down a street in that Hell and they are smiling. And I feel it necessary to repeat: because most of them would not accept the reality of what was waiting for them at the end of the trip. . [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-05-2006 06:07 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Actually, he is not wrong because history shows that, at the beginning, the movement against the Jews by Hitler was made, if not possible, at least much easier by the cooperation of the rich part of the Jewish population, who felt that if they aided the Nazis they would be safe. Many helped to facilitate the movement. In the end, of course, it did them no good as their wealth was seized and they were taken away with the rest. This may mark a milestone as to how far a thread can get off-topic |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Juju “Scary thought, the responsibility we place upon ourselves” I have to agree with another; it is a responsibility inflicted on us by those who expect it of us because we have the resources as well, ostensibly, the values, ( akin to that expected by the least simply because they are within our country). If you are willing to deny the values as being general, and the responsibility, it does in fact for us, as citizens living now, make things much easier. “The holocaust... is it so relevant?” That Dear Lady is, (with the addition of one word at the end: “now”), I think for your generation, a critical question to answer. For the Western generation of my parents there was a policy which can be viewed as an atonement for having done nothing at a crucial moment which led to the murder of millions. The guilt that motivated that policy extended into my generation; it was a sort of “original sin” we were born with. For you, it is different. You must decide on what are the obligations of the world in which you will live after we are gone. I do not envy you. John [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-05-2006 07:00 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Who proposed a new Maginot Line? Not you, not me. Who are you talking to? Perhaps you mean the fence? Ah, but I never proposed nor supported that. Apparently you don't either? quote: I don't know. Ask an East German. quote: Wow, you started with real issues -- no solutions of course (that would defeat the rhetorical trick) -- and then descended into metaphor. The promotion of fear for its own sake only hinders real world solutions to real world problems. The Sound and the Fury . . . . |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I read this and I keep picturing Schwarzneggar's Commando. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I am glad you read it as I meant it. I was unsure how to put that question delicately. You know my mother believes there will be a day that energy will be free and perfectly clean. As an engineer I have learned to be skeptical. With having to listen to the politicians (Some of them don't know what they are talking about when it comes to energy use... both sides). I learned enough. And some how in ten years the mistakes of our grandfathers will lay on our shoulders. Cause its never our fathers fault. Irony? Maybe in 50 years when I retire. Even if I do take responciblility for my actions, there's billions other people in the world. -Juju -Juju -"So you found a girl Who thinks really deep thougts What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “The promotion of fear for its own sake only hinders real world solutions to real world problems.” The fear is justified because we are dealing with what for many of us is a fantasy, yet never the less, is “real world” for those now armed with weapons and billions for more; that the” real world” is a battleground in which the damned and true heroes of God are determined. It is centuries since the West, (except perhaps Ireland), spilled blood over such an exam . The issue is not whether you understand it, but whether you accept its existence and what then do you do? . |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Accept the existence of what? I have a feeling that you won't answer that question. To do so deprives you of your poetic license. And Mike complains that I'm cryptic. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Juju, You and your generation are under no obligation to carry our generation’s guilt. The “State of Israel” was and is a losing proposition. You would be better off emigrating everyone and everything six feet above ground to Utah. Unless and until you do there will be blood and terror and horror. I am not saying it would be right, much less good in a moral sense , but it would buy peace at least for awhile. John Juju, the world is not Naperville; I wish it were. [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-05-2006 07:43 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I was wrong. We have NOW reached a milestone for being off-topic! Brad, you watch Arnold's movies? I'm impressed! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Aw Mike Have you never been to an Italian restaurant after a fine meal, in a room full of smoke and good wine? Enjoy! John . |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Mike, I own a copy of the first Conan flick. I think it works precisely because so little dialogue is involved. Arnold was great in the eighties and early nineties. Then, I think, he actually tried acting. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Brad, “Arnold was great in the eighties and early nineties. Then, I think, he actually tried acting” Now you’ve really ticked me off! Arnold was never other than Arnold just as John Wayne was never other than John Wayne, (“Surely this was the son of GOD”)! If you were nearby I would box your ears Pilgrim! John PS Who misses John Wayne? . |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Talk about "off-topic"... lol The ONLY thing John Kerry has in common with the Duke is the first name... plus, the Duke would never apologize either... of course, being the "perfect American" deserves no apology. You may burn my flag... only after you wrap yourself in it first. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOLOL! John, you picked the only actor in history WORSE at acting than Arnold! I love Arnold and the Duke both for their machismo but their dialogues were issued with the smoothness of football spikes running across a basketball court. The only other actor even in their league would be charles Bronson. He was magnificent in Hard Times because no sentence had more than five words and they were all single-syllabled. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Now Mike, You wound my esthetic heart! John Wayne was a character. Charles Bronson was no character. Many Hail Marys’ for you. John PS Ah my friends We are last of our kind The world grows darker by the hour Let's drink our wine We’ll be dead Before any future we could know It’s up to them After we are gone. . [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-05-2006 09:14 PM).] |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I wasn't off topic. (: -Juju |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Juju, Don't be so sensitive. We are fools as you will be in time. John PS Here’s a test of Western consciousness: will anyone tell me the crucial distinction, for which men are killing themselves, between Sunni and Shiite? [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-05-2006 10:07 PM).] |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
): I know. I "accept" it. :p. I think I don't do a good job of claiming responcibility myself. I was not really refuring to you guys, but a general way of the world works. Every out cry, every defence, every offence. In the history books it was the "English who would not let the states be fairly represented" English taxmen were often tared and featherd. It is human nature to not take responcibility. To blame. It is part of who we are. With origanal sin, and all. I think we were more on subject then we thought. -Juju |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yep, the best defense has always been a good offense to many.....fairly obvious in this thread. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I think it is the sunne (the minority), But I haven't studied in awhile the situation. I wouldn't be suprised if I am wrong. It could be both, but usually gorilla attacks are done by minority. -juju -Juju |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
They are using gorillas now????  |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
:p -Juju |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Juju, “It is human nature to not take responcibility. To blame. It is part of who we are. With origanal sin, and all.” And yet if you look up outside, you’re apt to see a large chunk of organized matter, with passengers, flying through the sky. And you will do so not from the mouth of a cave. That tells me someone among us has decided differently. John . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “I tell the American people, vote for withdrawal” from Iraq, said Hamas’s Abu Abdullah. “Abandon Israel if you want to save America.” Now what he meant to say, (they will provide the text), was: “Mary had a little lamb . . .” http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmZmMWNmMzAxNTVmYjk0NzQxNTU5YTViMTE4NDQ1NmI= PS "If European countries claim that they have killed Jews in World War II... why don't they provide the Zionist regime with a piece of Europe," Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told Iranian television. "Germany and Austria can provide the... regime with two or three provinces for this regime to establish itself, and the issue will be resolved." . . . “In October, Mr Ahmadinejad caused an outcry by calling for Israel to "be wiped off the map". “ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4510922.stm A couple months ago I read on the BBC that the EU is yet debating whether Ahmadinejad is serious in what he is saying; in effect whether or not he’s just badly joking. . [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-07-2006 08:01 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Remind me to sell the EU some of our wonderful swampland in florida... |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
What to the 'who was it turning jews to germans comment? And no the world did not, one time doesn not mean its our place. And we went into iraq for the oil , wmd that dont exist and sopposedly wink wink, not true that terrorists are there. We need to deal with our own problems, ie illegal immigration,drugs and such b4 we take responisbility for anything eles and how about helping sierra leone if we are going to help anyone. |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
lol to gorilla face. Nazis informed the Jewish leadership within as to how many were to be transported and that leadership using Jewish police rounded up those they decided who were to go. Informed them um as in at gun point so actually it was the Nazis. Also , that was the rich jews maybe and cause they didnt know,later when they knew they didnt. And they wouldnt have done that or been rich I don't think. The jews were hated wayyy before the holocaust, hitler did come up with that on his own. It was the common people and the nazis who did it, and still never the less mainly nazis. |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
hink it is the sunne (the minority), But I haven't studied in awhile the situation. I wouldn't be suprised if I am wrong. It could be both, but usually gorilla attacks are done by minority. ur wrong, sunni was majority , shiite is minority. and its both |
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