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Balladeer
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0 posted 2005-04-08 06:17 PM


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43688

In a nutshell, an 81 year old woman, not comatose or in a vegetative state nor with any life-threatening conditions and WITH a living will is being starved to death at the hospice under the instructions of her granddaughter. In the words of the granddaughter....

"Grandmama is old and I think it is time she went home to Jesus," Gaddy told Magouirk's brother and nephew, McLeod and Ken Mullinax. "She has glaucoma and now this heart problem, and who would want to live with disabilities like these?

She actually got a judge to agree with her. Why doesn't that surprise me?


Welcome to the brave new world.....

© Copyright 2005 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved
Juju
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In your dreams
1 posted 2005-04-08 06:26 PM


That is sick and there is actually something wrong with that. I hope she gets cut out of the will. psycho.


Juju

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2 posted 2005-04-08 06:27 PM


God help us.

Sunshine
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3 posted 2005-04-08 06:37 PM


Smiling at you...

I linked a version of that Story in on Denise's thread of "Outrage" as the flip side of the human coin.

Still...outrageous is exactly how is smells.


SEA
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with you
4 posted 2005-04-08 07:46 PM


buckle up folks...
Nightshade
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just out of reach
5 posted 2005-04-08 10:02 PM


....it's going to be a bumpy ride.
          Lord help us and forgive us ... again.

Denise
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6 posted 2005-04-08 10:02 PM


We now know what is going on out there. We can't claim ingnorance anymore. Our institutions of healing have been infiltrated with the 'quality of life' philosophy and it seems they have common connections (same board members) with the hospices they are affiliated with that are allowing these atrocities to happen, with the judges in their pockets who give it the official seal of legality.

I say it's time to raise a ruckus with all the schmucks in Washington. Either that, or we can roll over and allow the state mandated murders of the sick, elderly and disabled to continue.

Let's demand investigations of these hospitals, hospices, and judges. Let's insist that our Senators and Congressman do their jobs. They have to stand up against the judicial branch and hold them accountable for their roles in these things.

We have judicial tyranny because Congress and our leaders have allowed it for decades. Let's demand that they start doing their jobs by LEADING. Let's let them know that 'business as usual' is over. If they want to keep their jobs they are going to have to deserve their jobs.

Let's demand that the Justice Department continue its investigation into the medicaid fraud against Sun Coast Hospice, George Felos, and Michael Schiavo, for starters.

And you folks in Florida, please get on the Attorney General to launch and investigation into the blatant misconduct of George Greer. I lost count of the number of Florida statutes he violated against Terri Schiavo, and allowed her husband to violate, and in arriving at his Order of death. I know, the AG declined before to investigate, dating back to 2002, but with the spot light of the world on him now, maybe he will actually do something.

Perhaps some laws should be enacted forbidding the same members from serving on the boards of hospitals as well as their affiliated hospices.

And it's high time that the laws already on the books for the protection of the sick, elderly and disabled are obeyed, and not ignored by judges who are getting kickbacks from lawyers backed and funded by the ACLU.

Let's have Terri's Legacy be one of life and hope for the weakest among us.

The darkness has been exposed, and we are not powerless against it...unless we think we are.

Write and call your Senators and Representatives in your states and at the Federal level. If the majority of us do, they won't ignore us...if they want to keep their plush jobs, that is. Most of us will be old, sick, and/or disabled one day. Some of us already are. Don't let judges decide if you will live or die.

In the meantime, if you have to go to a hospital, go to a Catholic hospital. They won't deliberately knock you off. And if you have a living will, get it redone to take out all the vague language, like "condition" and "reasonable expectation", and state that you do want nutrition unless your body can no longer process it and you always want hydration, etc., (and be sure to retrieve all copies of the original one from your lawyer and physician when replacing it with the new one) or get a "Will to Live" document that doesn't use vague lawerly language that can be used against you and your loved ones some day.

Thanks Karilea, I saw that last night at WND too. It's not really the flip side though, is it? Just different family members. The granddaughter in this case = Michael Schiavo and the brother, sister, and nephew = the Schindlers, and the judge = the judge. Except she does have a living will, specifically stating that she wants food and hydration. And in this case the brother, sister, and nephew are the ones, under Georgia law, legally designated to speak for her. It seems whatever side is seeking death is the side that these judges seem to go with. Unbelievable.

Denise
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7 posted 2005-04-08 10:39 PM


quote:
Wednesday, April 6
Revealing the Hidden Agenda: Checkbook Euthanasia

Q: How can you tell when a euthanasia advocate is telling the truth?

A: When he disgusts you even more than usually.

Consider biological psychologist Hal Herzog, writing in the Asheville, NC, Citizens-Times on the moral, social, and legal issues raised not by Terri Schindler Schiavo's imposed death, but by her inadequate care.

Noting that "most commentators...have ignored the troubling inescapable financial consequences of severe irreversible brain damage to affected families and to taxpayers," Herzog proceeds to make the same case for checkbook euthanasia that Professors Karl Binding and Erich Hoche raised in Germany's Weimar Republic some 80 years ago in their seminal work The Destruction of Life Devoid of Value.

"Here are the facts," Herzog ominously begins:
According to a 2002 report in the Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery and Psychiatry, the frequency of persistent vegetative state in the United States is 64 to 140 per million people. Thus, somewhere between 538 and 1,176 North Carolinians are probably afflicted with this condition. At a cost of about $80,000 a year per person, this translates to an annual financial burden to the North Carolina health-care system of $43 million to $94 million—enough to hire between 1,500 and 3,500 additional public school teachers.

That last propaganda ploy, i.e., comparing the costs of caring for persons with disablities with the cost of funding productive laborers is right out of the euthanasia playbook. As Mark Mostert observes in the Fall 2002 issue of the Journal of Special Education:
In Binding and Hoche's terms, [the former] were "useless eaters" whose "ballast lives" could be tossed overboard to better balance the economic ship of state. In speaking of those with disabilities, and explicitly advocating involuntary euthanasia, Binding and Hoche wrote:
Their life is absolutely pointless, but they do not regard it as being unbearable. They are a terrible, heavy burden upon their relatives and society as a whole. Their death would not create even the smallest gap--except perhaps in the feelings of their mothers or loyal nurses.

Just like today!

Furthermore, Binding and Hoche drove home the economic argument by calculating the total cost expended in caring for such people. They concluded that this cost was "a massive capital in the form of foodstuffs, clothing and heating, which is being subtracted from the national product for entirely unproductive purposes."

As their disciple Herzog continues:
The life expectancy of a young adult in a persistent vegetative state is 11.5 years, making their lifetime health-care costs about $1 million. With a median family income of $38,000, few North Carolina families can bear this burden. Who should pay to keep people like Terri Schiavo alive?

Could this be why Judge George Greer ruled so consistently for Terri's eradication? After all, the Republican judge's conservatism was scarcely the compassionate sort.


http://cureltd.blogspot.com/

Brad
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8 posted 2005-04-08 11:14 PM


This one just confuses me. I suspect there's more to this than what has been stated so far, but if this is all there is, isn't this a case of breaking the law?
Ron
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9 posted 2005-04-09 01:17 AM


quote:
I suspect there's more to this than what has been stated so far ...

If I had to choose between trusting Judge Judy, my horoscope, or wnd.com, Brad, I honestly don't know which I'd take.

Fortunately, that's not a choice I have to make. Instead, I can choose to ignore all three.

Denise
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10 posted 2005-04-09 09:31 AM


Yes, it is Brad. Numerous laws were also broken in order for Judge Greer to arrive at his decision.
Local Rebel
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11 posted 2005-04-09 09:58 AM


First; when my father made out his living will his lawyer advised him that all the children needed to sign a contract agreeing to abide by his DNR decision.  It is what I would advise to anyone because any type of will can be contested in a court.  And, how likely is it that family members will ever agree on anything? And even though my father had a DNR will -- we still had to fight the hospital to get him moved into hospice care -- even though he was conscious and in his lucid moments was able to clearly say that he wanted to go home.

Second; this story may, or may not be accurate.  If so, it is certainly illegal and a miscarriage of justice.  While I have a difficult time believing that a hospice would accept a patient who was not terminal, or not provide comfort to a terminal patient, anything is possible and I don't discount the battle for the final bucks (which is why the hospital did not want to release my father to hospice).

Third; wnd.com has headlines today regarding this case (as lead), a baby being euthanized in Belgium, a story about living wills, stories criticizing the independent judiciary, a story linking the 'right to die' with the occult, stories of gay paranoia, political treatises on Iran, concern that men will be forced to do housework in Spain, a gossip piece wondering if Queen Nefertiti had an affair with Moses, -- but for some reason this 'Culture of (right wing) Life' propaganda  machine says nothing about the 11 children that will be killed by a gun in this country today or the 30,000 children who will starve to death around the world, TODAY! or Spiro Nikolouzos, or Sun Hudson.


Fourth; this case has no bearing to Terry Shiavo and is certainly not her legacy.  The precedent for having the right to die is Karen Ann Quinlan http://www.who2.com/karenannquinlan.html.

Denise
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12 posted 2005-04-09 10:02 AM


quote:
Matt C. Abbott
Is Hospice Care Safe?
By Matt C. Abbott www.MichNews.com  
Mar 30, 2005

I received the following e-mail from Ron Panzer, president of Hospice Patients Alliance (hospicepatients.org/euth-center.html):



Right to life organizations have been out-maneuvered by the so-called right to die organizations.  How did this occur?  We have to look at the history of the right to die organizations and then the answer will be clear.

Before the Third Reich, before World War II, the eugenics and euthanasia advocates were quite active in the U.S.  The Euthanasia Society of America, formed in 1938 in New York, having failed in getting passage of laws legalizing euthanasia, changed its tactics.  Realizing that the sanctity of life ethic was alive and well in the U.S., they sought a way to chip away at the bedrock blocking their way.  Commissioning research to learn what phrases their dark agenda could be palatably sold to the American public, they came up with terms such as ‘choice in dying,’ ‘dying well,’ ‘the right to die’ and ‘patient choice.’

In the 1960s they changed their name to Choice in Dying, choosing to focus on incrementally advancing the euthanasia agenda.  Living wills, advanced directives, and do not resuscitate orders were successfully sold to the U.S. and accepted by the mainstream health care industry policymakers.

Simultaneous with the introduction of the living will and the advanced directives initiative, hospice care arrived on the scene, suggesting that we avoid aggressive acute hospital care when such interventions may be burdensome and intrusive for patients who are truly dying.  Providing compassionate care to the terminally ill, relieving their suffering while allowing a natural death in its own timing ... who could object?

What the public did not know is that the first hospice in our nation, the Connecticut Hospice, was founded by a major representative of the euthanasia movement, Florence Wald, MSN, who stated that assisted suicide should be available for just about any reason at all:

‘I'll tell you the way I see it, and I know that I differ from Cicely Saunders, who is very much against assisted suicide. I disagree with her view on the basis that there are cases in which either the pain or the debilitation the patient is experiencing is more than can be borne, whether it be economically, physically, emotionally, or socially. For this reason, I feel a range of options should be available to the patient, and this should include assisted suicide.’  (JAMA. 281; 1683-1685, May 12, 1999, Hospice Care in the United States: A Conversation with Florence S. Wald, M. J. Friedrich)

While many in hospice assert that they will neither hasten death nor prolong death, hospice staff around the country may misuse common end of life interventions to hasten death.  Terminal sedation, a common intervention to relieve severe agitation at the end of life, can be misapplied to place patients into a medically-induced coma from which they are not allowed to recover.  They die of dehydration while sleeping, thereby allowing for a ‘pretty’ and ‘peaceful,’ but unnatural death, i.e., murder.

Right to life organizations have traditionally viewed hospice as the rightful alternative to euthanasia and have ardently supported hospice services, and so they should, IF hospices remain loyal to the original hospice mission of the London-based Dame Cicely Saunders, the founder of the modern hospice movement.  But the euthanasia advocates have always known that hospice could be used as the back door to legalization of euthanasia and/or physician-assisted suicide.

And that is what has been occurring throughout the U.S.  We have families reporting their loved one was killed off outright within hospices, through inappropriate use of medications when there was no clinical need, resulting in the death of an otherwise non-dying patient.

…The euthanasia advocates have taken over the national policymaking circles of the entire hospice industry.  Doubt it?  Well, remember the Euthanasia Society of America?  It changed its name to Choice in Dying, which sounds great, but was clearly an early indication that the choice they really wanted to promote was the choice to have physician-assisted suicide and/or euthanasia.

Choice in Dying completed its mission, the nationwide acceptance of incremental changes in our attitude toward life, substituting a ‘quality of life’ ethic for the ‘sanctity of life’ ethic.  Having done its job, it looked forward to the next step: the direct control of the hospice industry.  Choice in Dying merged with the hospice industry coalition, Partnership for Caring, whose goal was the changing of state and federal laws to favor utilization of hospice.  Partnership for Caring merged with Last Acts, one of the largest hospice coalitions in the world, funded by the Robert Woods Johnson Foundation, to become Last Acts Partnership.  Many who have served as Last Acts Partnership's directors also serve on the National Hospice & Palliative Care Organization board.

For example, Mary Labyak, C.E.O. of the Hospice of the Florida Suncoast, served as secretary at the Partnership for Caring and is a prominent leader in the hospice industry, having served on the boards of Last Acts and the National Hospice & Palliative Care Organization.  It is Labyak's hospice, Hospice of the Florida Suncoast, which has actively participated in accepting a non-terminal patient, Terri Schiavo, into the hospice, for the express purpose of euthanizing the ‘unworthy of life’ victim, Terri Schiavo.

Those who think hospice is the safe alternative to open euthanasia have been outfoxed. The euthanasia society has run circles around the well-meaning but naive right to lifers. So whether euthanasia is legalized openly or ‘back-doored’ through hospice, euthanasia is here, and it has been here for a long time.  The National Right to Life Committee has known about the hospice killings for years, yet has refused to expose these killings.

Is the right-to-life groups' stance on hospice consistent with its professed opposition to euthanasia?  Only if it admits that the realities in hospice are mixed, and citizens of our nation need to remain vigilant in determining whether their loved one is receiving end of life care, or is receiving care that leads to the end of life at will, i.e., euthanasia.



---------------------------------------------
Matt C. Abbott is the former executive director of the Illinois Right to Life Committee and the former director of public affairs for the Chicago-based Pro-Life Action League. He is a Catholic journalist and commentator. He can be reached at mattcabbott@hotmail.com.

Copyright © MichNews.com. All Rights Reserved.

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/printer_7634.shtml




Denise
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13 posted 2005-04-09 10:10 AM


The difference that I see, L.R., between Terri and Karen is that Karen wasn't starved to death. She lived for almost 10 years after her parents won their court battle to remove her from the respirator. She continued to receive nutrition and hydation until the end.

Terri was deprived of what we all need to live, food and water. That is the only cause of her death.

Local Rebel
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14 posted 2005-04-09 10:16 AM


Certainly there are differences between Schiavo and Quinlan -- but Quinlan is the federal precedent for right to die cases.  There were no precedents established by Schiavo.
Denise
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15 posted 2005-04-09 10:29 AM


What about a court order issued by a judge that a non-terminally ill patient SHALL be starved and dehydrated until dead, L.R.?

Greer did more than give permission to the guardian to deny food and hydration. He went far beyond that. The judge directly ordered that it SHALL be done, essentially overriding the guardian's authority.

As George Felos was ever so glad to inform us, it was taken out of Schiavo's hands and that even if the parents were to somehow gain custody at the 11th hour, Terri would still have to be starved to death, because the Judge had ordered that it SHALL be done, regardless of who has guardianship.

That seems like a mighty powerful precedent to me.

Denise
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16 posted 2005-04-09 10:40 AM


Here is a local independent news source for those skeptical of WND.


quote:
Woman, 81, at center of feeding tube feud

Kenneth Mullinax, the patient’s nephew in Birmingham, Ala., said a hospice nurse told him that Magouirk had not received substantial nourishment since March 28. He wants a temporary feeding tube inserted until she can be evaluated for treatment at the University of Alabama Medical Center. A living will states that nourishment should be withheld only if she were in a coma or vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

Mullinax and the patient’s brother and sister – Lonnie Ruth Mullinax of Birmingham and A.B. McLeod of Anniston, Ala. – came here last Friday to arrange for a feeding tube and take her to the Birmingham hospital. That same day Gaddy received emergency guardianship in Troup County Probate Court.

At a follow-up hearing Monday, the parties reached a settlement that awarded guardianship to Gaddy provided three cardiologists – James Brennan and Thomas Gore, both of LaGrange, and Raed Aquel of Birmingham – evaluate the patient, who would receive whatever treatment two of the three recommended. A final decision had not yet been reached.

“They were all hugging necks when they left court,” said Probate Judge Donald Boyd. “I don’t know what happened.”

Boyd said Gaddy testified at the hearing that she feeds her grandmother Jello, chips of ice and “anything else she’d be willing to eat.”

“I think all of Mrs. Magouirk’s family has her genuine best interests at heart, but unfortunately they disagree on what they believe would be best for her,” said Jack Kirby of LaGrange, attorney for the patient’s brother and sister.

“She (Gaddy) said, ‘I think it’s time she (her grandmother) goes home to Jesus, that’s she’s too sick and would not have a good quality of life,” Kenneth Mullinax said.
His complaints have been posted on Internet Web logs that have been in overdrive since the Terri Schiavo case.

“All of the Terri Schiavo people have come to our rescue,” Mullinax said. “This thing’s going national.”

On Thursday, the Probate Office, West Georgia Health System and attorneys in the case were inundated with phone calls and e-mails.

“We need people surrounding that place (hospice), we need some activity,” one caller from Oregon told the Daily News, adding that she had called the governor’s office and attorneys in the case.
The probate office got an estimated 50 calls from people saying things like, “I understand y’all are murdering people in Troup County” and “You’re euthanizing people.”

“We’re taking the posture of refusing to deal with those people because they’re not representing the responsible parties,” said West Georgia Health System President Jerry Fulks. “We’re focusing on taking care of the patient and her family.”

Fulks said he could not comment on an individual patient, but the health system’s policy calls for nourishment and hydration for hospice patients, sometimes through a feeding tube because of throat cancer or some other condition that prevents the patient from swallowing.

He said there is a “reverence for life that our staff and our physicians and our volunteers all adhere to in doing the jobs they do.”

Mullinax said his aunt does not have a terminal condition, which is a requirement for admission to hospice.

Danny Daniel of LaGrange, the attorney for Gaddy and another grandchild, said doctors made the decision to admit Magourik into hospice.

Gaddy has been taking care of her grandmother for 10 years, he said.
“They’re following the doctors’ recommendations and they want to do what’s in the best interests of their grandmother,” Daniel said, adding that hospice is providing “excellent care” for Magourik, a widow with no children.

Gaddy could not be reached for comment.

“The doctors can make her very comfortable again and give her a normal life,” Mullinax said. “That’s all we want for Aunt Mae ... My aunt can’t live much longer without substantial fluids or nourishment.
“I want the world to know that at Hospice LaGrange you have people who are not terminal being denied nourishment as a matter of course. This national debate has reared its head in Troup County, Georgia. It’s the damndest thing I’ve ever seen.”

He said he will “pursue every available avenue” to get treatment for his aunt.
Joel Martin can be reached at jmartin@lagrangenews.
com or (706) 884-7311 ext. 235.

http://www.lagrangenews.com/new.php?StoryType=full


Also, notice in the story that the spokesperson for the granddaughter, (Gaddy), states that she was following the advice of the doctors. Why are doctors advising hospice for a non-terminally ill person? It's against the law. Does that matter?

Also, the hospice spokesperson states they are taking excellent care of Mae. How is that possible if they are not providing food and hydration to a non-terminally ill person?

And why haven't the three cardiologists made their recommendations yet, with a person slowly starving to death. Run out the clock until it is too late and make their decision a moot point?

And Gaddy's attorney misspoke about Mae not having any children. He should have said that she has no living children. She did have a son. Gaddy, afterall is Mae's granddaughter. She didn't just drop from the sky, I wouldn't imagine.


Local Rebel
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17 posted 2005-04-09 10:42 AM


If there were any precedents in Schiavo -- they are Florida precedents and have no bearing in Georgia.  
sweetcollege_girl
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18 posted 2005-04-09 10:43 AM


This is outrageous, stupid, and totally confusing! If this grand-daughter wants her grandmother to die so much to stall someone who wants her to live, what is it that this world is coming to?! I just finished writing a paper over the ignorance of the world..if anyone watns to read it, let me know, and I will e-mail it to you..


My husband only has one thing to say, "A country that will kill a baby before it is born, will naturally kill an old person before they die"

~~SCG~~

sweetcollege_girl
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19 posted 2005-04-09 10:45 AM


One more thing, Balladeer...You wouldn't happen to have read that book have you??? Brave New World that is? If so, that is the book I wrote my paper over...what a coinky-dink!

~~SCG~~

Denise
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20 posted 2005-04-09 10:55 AM


L.R., I'll keep that in mind when I hear a State or Federal circuit or appellate judge cite the 'Bush v. Schiavo' decision when begging out of 'interfereing' to overturn a decision ordering someone to be starved and dehydrated to death by the next corrupt judge at the behest of 'guardians' and their attorneys bankrolled by the ACLU.
Denise
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21 posted 2005-04-09 11:15 AM


You're husband is correct, SCG. And the elderly aren't the only targets of the pro-death euthanasia groups. They also target the sick and the disabled, anyone who isn't, or has no probability of becoming, a financial contributor to society, all those 'useless eaters'.
Denise
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22 posted 2005-04-09 12:19 PM


quote:
When her siblings and nephew lodged a complaint with the hospice’s in-house attorney, Carol Todd on March 31, Todd checked Magouirk’s case file and discovered that Gaddy did not have the durable medical power of attorney required to make the decision to end her grandmother’s life. The attorney also ascertained that according to the woman’s living will, fluids and nourishment were only to be withheld if she was either comatose or vegetative. She is neither.

After learning that Magouirk was being starved to death and being told by attorney Todd that Gaddy did not have the proper legal authority and her act was against the living will in place, her family ordered that nutrition and hydration be restored to the woman as the law provided that her sister and brother were legally entitled to make all decisions. Todd was instructed by Mrs. Mullinax to insert fluids via an IV and insert a feeding tube via her nose.

The attorney had the IV fluids started that evening but told the family they would have to come to Hospice LaGrange to sign papers to have the feeding tube inserted because once it was done, she believed that Magouirk would no longer be a candidate for the hospice. However, she was not terminal initially and did not legally qualify for hospice admission.

Todd allegedly stated that the only reason that the woman was at the hospice was that LaGrange Hospital administration had failed to exercise due diligence in closely examining the power of attorney which Gaddy misrepresented that she had, as well as executing provisions of Mae’s living will to her preordained stipulations. Gaddy had only a financial power of attorney.

Georgia law requires that a hearing be held for emergency guardianship within three days of a request. While Magouirk’s family was detained at the hospice in a meeting with hospice attorney Todd April 4 to arrange for emergency air transport of Mae to the University of Alabama-Birmingham Medical Center, Gaddy was appearing before Troup County, Ga., Probate Judge Boyd who granted Gaddy emergency guardianship, giving her complete authority. Once empowered by the court to continue the killing of her grandmother, Gaddy ordered that Mae’s IV fluid tube be removed.

The judge reportedly favors granting Gaddy permanent guardianship which will allow her to starve her grandmother to death despite the wishes of her living will and the fact that she is not terminal, not comatose and not PVS.

According to Mullinex, Boyd would not allow the family attorney, Jack Kirby, to cross examine Magouirk’s attending physician to ask if he would agree that there are alternative treatments. Boyd reportedly called Mullinax’s charges false and said that all relatives agreed to let three doctors decide the fate of Magouirk.

Interested persons may contact hospice attorney Carol Todd at 706-882-1411; Probate Judge Donald Boyd at 706-883-1690, court case number Estate 138-05.



http://www.theempirejournal.com/409052_court_disregards_georgia.htm

Balladeer
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23 posted 2005-04-09 04:51 PM


Anyone has the right to ignore anything. That's a human perrogative which serves little purpose but is easier on the mind.

LR, you may be right but two people not terminally ill, in hospice, having a judge declare they be starved to death...I would call that la little more than sheer coincidence and I would be very surprised if the granddaughter in the second was not influenced by the Schiavo case. I would also be surprised if the judge's ruling in the second case was not influenced by the decisions in the first case and the fact that no court, including the Superior, overturned them. That legacizes it enough for me (if that's a word)

Have I read Brave New World? Of course. Huxley was required reading in my high school..

Local Rebel
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24 posted 2005-04-09 06:16 PM


C'mon Deer.. you know Huxley wasn't even around when we were in high school...     

I was on a jury once in a civil dispute between the children of a man who had willed almost all of his estate to his daughter who had spent most of her life with him taking care of him when he had gotten older and naturally, disabled with time.  

His other children argued that the will was invalid, that the man was unduly influenced by the presence of the care-giving daughter.  They, themselves had offered no support during the course of the man's illness.  The jury deliberated the better part of the week.  I sided with the care-giving daughter because it seemed appropriate that she had forfeited much of her time that she could have spent developing a career or a family of her own in his service.  Not to mention that it was what the man put down on paper.  Ultimately we declared the will valid.

On the other hand I had a brother-in-law who moved back into his parents house when he was 40.  He had never been able to hold a decent job and continued on that path after returning home only working odd jobs here and there if he worked at all.  Mostly he drew food stamps and lived in the house his father had paid for.  He was a belligerent, irascible, and disrespectful son who antagonized his mother until her death, and then he stayed there for ten more years until his father died.  He did very little work around the house and performed only minute tasks of 'care' giving -- such as cooking (but only if he wasn't mad at his father who was on oxygen from having congestive heart failure and emphysema).  

He was there.  He'd spent a considerable amount of his time that he could have developing a career or family of his own.

Circumstances are always different.  That's why we have a system where it is up to courts to adjudicate what the response of the law should be in specific cases -- but even so -- it has to be done in such a way as to be applicable to other cases.  I note the decision is not yet final in this case -- and that we have very little information about the circumstances this family faces.

In the Schiavo case -- if the Congress had exercised it's proper authority - as enumerated to it by the separation of powers granted in the Constitution -- it would have written it's bill in such a way as to ask the Federal Courts -- what is the role of the Federal Government in cases where families don't agree on the care to be given to a sick or injured relative?  If they would have done that, instead of asking for a de novo   hearing -- it wouldn't have been rejected as it passed its way (back) up through the courts.  They were smart enough to know that too.  Had they done it -- then we would have a decision and precedent to guide the judge in this case.  Yet one more failing of a grand-standing political class.

Balladeer
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25 posted 2005-04-09 07:08 PM


Aldous and I were old drinking buddies


A precedent to guide the judge? Well, I may be missing something but I see these facts (1) doctors testified that the woman had no life-threatening condition (2) she was placed in hospice (3) her living will states clearly NOT to have food or nourishment withheld if not in a coma or vegetative state (4) food and nourishment is being withheld.

The judge needs a precedent? It would seem to me a seeing-eye dog could not guide this judge. So much for the "where there's a will there's a way" theory...unless those words are followed by "to get around it."

Local Rebel
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26 posted 2005-04-09 07:13 PM


But Deer.. that's why juries aren't allowed to read newspapers!  We don't know what we really know about this case and we certainly don't know what we don't know.

My response re: Federal Precedence was in regard to your statement;

quote:

I would also be surprised if the judge's ruling in the second case was not influenced by the decisions in the first case and the fact that no court, including the Superior, overturned them.


LoveBug
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27 posted 2005-04-09 07:22 PM


Geez... animals are more kind to their infirm than we are...

I told my boyfriend and parents they had better not pull any feeding tube out of me.. hopefully they will respect that...

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Balladeer
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28 posted 2005-04-09 08:54 PM


We don't know what we really know and we don't know what we don't know...that's way too deep for me, LR! Anyway I never referred to juries at all...

Lovebug, I'm sorry but talking to a bugman about letting you survive just won't make it, I'm afraid!!

Denise
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29 posted 2005-04-09 10:29 PM


L.R., The question to the Federal Courts was not and never was what role do the Federal Courts have in family disputes regarding these issues.

The issue was only and always about the granting of a de novo hearing due to all the hotly disputed issues, and diametrically opposed medical opinions in this case, all the evidence of corruption, bias, perjury, violations of existing Florida statutes regarding treatment of the disabled and regarding enforcement of guardianship provisions on the part of the judge, refusal on the part of law enforcement and the Attorney General's office and the DCF to investigate numerous complaints of abuse, neglect and corruption dating back years. With an order for death imposed, and with so many evidences of impropriety, the point was that this case cried out for a review of the findings of fact, to see if a fresh set of eyes would come to the same conclusions before someone's life was taken.

The Senate version of the bill used the word "shall" grant the petitioners a de novo hearing. The House bill was held up because the majority of the Democrats would not sign it unless the wording was changed to "may". That gave the Federal courts the 'out' that they needed, and that is what sealed Terri's fate.

Lots of people had a hand in killing Terri. And not a damn one of them cares anything about justice. Oh, they care about things like politics and backbiting and jockeying for power and pontificating about the 'rule of law'. But they don't care about truth and justice, not even for the weakest and most vulnerable among us. That should be a sobering revelation and a barometer of the kind of country that we have become.

Juju
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30 posted 2005-04-09 10:40 PM


I think the point was not htis is another terrie, but this stuff is happening, and if you don't believe it some nurces gave my grampa morphine when he was having breathing problems. He wasn't in pain. He just had like a heart attack.  He had breathing problems.  (he smoked alot when he was young.) He was really sick and dieing, but he was recovering and probably would of lived six months longer.  What the nurse did was wrong.  My mother and grand father (who was talking and was very sharp) both asked for no morphine.  

Just a thought. Maybe poeple don't have the right to take life away period.  

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Denise
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31 posted 2005-04-09 11:31 PM


You're right, Juju, they don't have that right. And it has to stop.


'Grandma' airlifed to medical center
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43723


Local Rebel
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32 posted 2005-04-09 11:37 PM


Exactly Denise -- that was never the question put to the Supreme Court -- but it should have been.  The powers to the three branches are enumerated very clearly.  The courts can't tell Congress how to set budgets, nor tell the President to send one soldier into combat.  And, they can't tell the courts to conduct a de novo hearing -- which is why the word would have been changed.  They can't merely tell the courts to take a mulligan because they don't like the outcome of a decision.

What they had to do, and failed to do, was take a different approach.

Had the Congress used it's Constitutional authority to make this a question of jurisdiction, and not making an ex post facto law, they would have had their way into the courts which would have opened the door to the questions you've enumerated.

They are all smart enough to know that (well some of them are).

Local Rebel
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33 posted 2005-04-09 11:54 PM


Just FYI

The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 provides that: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."

"The Bill of Attainder Clause was intended not as a narrow, technical (and therefore soon to be outmoded) prohibition, but rather as an implementation of the separation of powers, a general safeguard against legislative exercise of the judicial function or more simply - trial by legislature."  U.S. v. Brown, 381 U.S. 437, 440 (1965)

Anybody in the Beltway knows that.

Denise
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34 posted 2005-04-10 12:11 PM


So, what you are saying is that Congress should have first asked if a situation like Terri's could possibly, in the judiciary's opinion, qualify for Federal court review?

I'm not really understanding any of this. What about the 1st and 14th Amendment? Don't they give the Federal government jurisdiction?

Juju
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35 posted 2005-04-10 01:10 PM


No.  BUt what congress can do is do what they are best at.  Pass a law saying wrtten word is as much as law.  I am completly against congress messing with checks and balences. Congress should fight with what the got.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Local Rebel
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36 posted 2005-04-10 02:10 PM


Well there are many approaches Denise, but let's just look at what Judge Birch (a staunch conservative appointed by Bush 41 who recently upheld Florida laws on gay marriage bans) said in his concurring opinion to deny the en banc rehearing of the Schiavo case:
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/33005ca11rhrng2.pdf

quote:

I concur in the denial of rehearing en banc in this case because any further action by our court or the district court, would be improper, as I explain below.

An axiom in the study of law is that “hard facts make bad law.” The tragic events that have afflicted Mrs. Schiavo and that have been compounded by the resulting passionate inter-family struggle and media focus certainly qualify as “hard facts.” And, while the members of her family and the members of Congress have acted in a way that is both fervent and sincere, the time has come for dispassionate discharge of duty.

A popular epithet directed by some members of society, including some members of Congress, toward the judiciary involves the denunciation of “activist judges.” Generally, the definition of an “activist judge” is one who decides the outcome of a controversy before him according to personal conviction, even one sincerely held, as opposed to the dictates of the law as constrained by legal precedent and, ultimately, our Constitution. In resolving the Schiavo controversy it is my judgment that, despite sincere and altruistic motivation, the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers’ blueprint for the governance of a free people — our Constitution. Since I have sworn, as have they, to uphold and defend that Covenant, I must respectfully concur in the denial of the request for rehearing en banc. I conclude that Pub. L.109-3 (“the Act”) is unconstitutional and, therefore, this court and the district court are without jurisdiction in this case [FOOTNOTE 1] under that special Act and should refuse to exercise any jurisdiction that we may otherwise have in this case. Under the first amended complaint in this case (the initial complaint was improperly grounded on habeas corpus) a basis for jurisdiction was Pub. L. 109-3.[FOOTNOTE 2] The second amended complaint adopted other, independent grounds for jurisdiction, including the Americans With Disabilities Act (“ADA”), The Civil Rights Act (42 U.S.C. § 1983) and The Rehabilitation Act of 1973. We have held that the Rooker-Feldman [FOOTNOTE 3] doctrine is jurisdictional. Clearly, application of that doctrine should have been made in this case, the effect of which would have been to decline to exercise any jurisdiction that we or the district court did have under the ADA, the Civil Rights Act or the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

(emphasis mine)



So the judges (not just Birch -- this is the concurring opinion) found Terri's Law unconstitutional because of it's approach -- remember Denise -- these are the same people who were smart enough to figure out how to land the 2000 Florida presidential election in the Supreme Court in an expeditious manner and attain the judgement they sought.  And he rebukes the conservatives in congress for doing exactly what they claim the courts do all the time.

He continues;

quote:

It is axiomatic that the Framers established a constitutional design based on the principles of separation of powers. See Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 176 (1803) (noting that separation of powers is one of the governmental principles “on which the whole American fabric has been erected”). The Framers established three coequal but separate branches of government, each with the ability to exercise checks and balances on the two others. And to preserve this dynamic, the “Constitution mandates that ‘each of the three general departments of government [must remain] entirely free from the control or coercive influence, direct or indirect, of either of the others.’” Mistretta v. United States, 488 U.S. 361, 380, 109 S. Ct. 647, 659 (1989) (quoting Humphrey’s Executor v. United States, 295 U.S. 602, 629, 55 S. Ct. 869, 874 (1935)). Because of the important constitutional role assigned to the judiciary by the Framers in safeguarding the Constitution and the rights of individuals, see Federalist No. 78 (A. Hamilton), the execution of this constitutional mandate is particularly important when legislative acts encroach upon the independence of the judiciary. See INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919, 961, 103 S. Ct. 2764, 2789 (1983) (Powell, J. concurring) (citing Federalist No. 48 for the proposition that the Framers enshrined in the Constitution separation of powers principles because of past legislative interference with the judiciary); Northern Pipeline Co. v. Marathon Pipeline Co., 458 U.S. 50, 60, 102 S. Ct. 2858, 2866 (1982) (“[T]he independence of the judiciary [must] be jealously guarded.”). Accordingly, we risk imperiling our constitutional design if we do not inquire as to whether Pub. L. 109-3 infringes on the independence of the judiciary guaranteed by Article III of the United States Constitution.



And then;

quote:

Against these most elementary of constitutional principles, Section 1 of Pub. L. 109-3—which states that the United States District Court for the Middle District of Florida shall have jurisdiction to hear a suit regarding alleged violations of rights held by Mrs. Schiavo “under the Constitution or laws of the United States”—is not facially unconstitutional. If the Act only provided for jurisdiction consistent with Article III and 28 U.S.C. § 1331, the Act would not be in violation of the principles of separation of powers. The Act, however, goes further. Section 2 of the Act provides that the district court: (1) shall engage in “de novo” review of Mrs. Schiavo’s constitutional and federal claims; (2) shall not consider whether these claims were previously “raised, considered, or decided in State court proceedings”; (3) shall not engage in “abstention in favor of State court proceedings”; and (4) shall not decide the case on the basis of “whether remedies available in the State courts have been exhausted.” Pub. L. 109-3, § 2. Because these provisions constitute legislative dictation of how a federal court should exercise its judicial functions (known as a “rule of decision”), the Act invades the province of the judiciary and violates the separation of powers principle.

(emphasis mine)



The emphasized statement; " If the Act only provided for jurisdiction consistent with Article III and 28 U.S.C. § 1331, the Act would not be in violation of the principles of separation of powers." -- is to what I refer Denise -- but the Congress (and President) simply could not restrain themselves -- the opportunity to grandstand was too great.

And he concludes;

quote:

The separation of powers implicit in our constitutional design was created “to assure, as nearly as possible, that each branch of government would confine itself to its assigned responsibility.” INS, 462 U.S. at 951, 103 S. Ct. at 2784. But when the fervor of political passions moves the Executive and the Legislative branches to act in ways inimical to basic constitutional principles, it is the duty of the judiciary to intervene. If sacrifices to the independence of the judiciary are permitted today, precedent is established for the constitutional transgressions of tomorrow. See New York, 505 U.S. at 187, 112 S. Ct. at 2434. Accordingly, we must conscientiously guard the independence of our judiciary and safeguard the Constitution, even in the face of the unfathomable human tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo and her family and the recent events related to her plight which have troubled the consciences of many. Realizing this duty, I conclude that Pub. L. 109-3 is an unconstitutional infringement on core tenets underlying our constitutional system. Had Congress or the Florida legislature, in their legislative capacities, been able to constitutionally amend applicable law, we would have been constrained to apply that law. See Robertson v. Seattle Audobon Soc’y, 503 U.S. 429, 441, 112 S. Ct. 1407, 1414 (1992). By opting to pass Pub. L. 109-3 instead, however, Congress chose to overstep constitutional boundaries into the province of the judiciary. Such an Act cannot be countenanced. Moreover, we are bound by the Rooker-Feldman doctrine not to exercise any other jurisdictional bases to override a final state judgment. Should the citizens of Florida determine that its law should be changed, it should be done legislatively. Were the courts to change the law, as the petitioners and Congress invite us to do, an “activist judge” criticism would be valid.



So there you have it Denise -- Terri's Law actually sabotaged the Federal review of that case.

The congress could have passed laws regarding evidence -- they could have put an automatic stay into the law to require all feeding tubes to be kept in any incapacitated patient where family members disagreed on treatment until final law could have been worked out -- or they could have simply granted jurisdiction without dictating to the courts what they had to do -- but, they had to grandstand and grab for power.

Local Rebel
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37 posted 2005-04-10 03:32 PM


I'm sorry, I meant to write gay adoption ban  not gay marriage ban.

Birch's work:
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1104759344046

I apologize for the error.

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38 posted 2005-04-10 06:15 PM


Danny Daniel of LaGrange, the attorney for Gaddy and another grandchild, said doctors made the decision to admit Magourik into hospice.

Gaddy has been taking care of her grandmother for 10 years, he said.
“They’re following the doctors’ recommendations and they want to do what’s in the best interests of their grandmother,” Daniel said, adding that hospice is providing “excellent care” for Magourik, a widow with no children.

Gaddy could not be reached for comment.

“The doctors can make her very comfortable again and give her a normal life,” Mullinax said. “That’s all we want for Aunt Mae ... My aunt can’t live much longer without substantial fluids or nourishment.
“I want the world to know that at Hospice LaGrange you have people who are not terminal being denied nourishment as a matter of course. This national debate has reared its head in Troup County, Georgia. It’s the damndest thing I’ve ever seen.”

****welll,
Am I the only one who wants to know how a childless widow has a grand daughter? The amount of misinformation and emotional spitting attached to this story is unreal. I, for one, think hospice care should be for anyone dying, by 'choice' or from a terminal illness. The patient needs care that the family cannot always provide. If I choose to have NO  food or extreme measures used to keep me 'alive'????  I would hope my wishes (preferably via a living will) would be honored. Likewise, if my will should happen to read "FEED and HYDRATE ME, PLEASE"...well, you damn well better do it or it IS a form of murder, and somewhere, I believe, you shall answer to a higher power.
I believe in euthanasia. But to forcefully feed or not feed without clearcut input from the patient? TSK TSK TSK, we are really stooping far too low, no matter who the 'loving' family/partner is that is requesting to 'terminate' the patient because they "KNOW" that's what the patient wants. How many of you would be willing to pull the plug, even when asked? How many of you can say you really know what another soul's wishes are when it comes to life/death issues?

/pip/Forum92/HTML/001672.html

Local Rebel
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39 posted 2005-04-10 07:51 PM


I'm not inclined to support euthanasia.  

You may recall the German story a few years back of a man who responded to an Internet ad that was seeking someone willing to be killed and eaten.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-01-30-cannible_x.htm

quote:

His defense argued that since victim Brandes, 43, had volunteered to be killed and eaten, the crime should be classified as a mercy killing carrying a five-year maximum penalty.

Meiwes, who had confessed to the crime, had no "base motives," the state court said.

His primary motive was "the wish to make another man part of himself," Muetze said. "Meiwes reached this bonding experience through the consumption of the flesh."

Explaining the verdict, Muetze said perpetrator and victim used each other as means to an "ultimate climax."

A German victims' rights organization, White Ring, condemned the ruling, saying it could encourage others to carry out homicidal fantasies.



Euthanasia is not a slippery slope.  It is a hole to a bottomless pit.

But I'm all for a patient's right to choose what medical care they will receive -- and I'm in favor of the social justice position that if a person has a right to life -- they have a right to treatment.


LoveBug
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40 posted 2005-04-10 07:58 PM


Deer--bugman? ??? hmm :P

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Midnitesun
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41 posted 2005-04-10 08:51 PM


Reb, under certain circumstances...I am in favor of euthanasia. I DO remember that bizarre story, and do NOT include this kind of death request in my acceptance of euthanasia.
A terminally ill and suffering-in-pain patient should be allowed control over his final moments. That is what motivates me to support a mercy-"killing" agenda. And yet, I don't support most suicides or the death penalty. Perhaps, my own take on this is not maintream.  I have no problem with my position.

Denise
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42 posted 2005-04-10 09:22 PM


quote:
The congress could have passed laws regarding evidence -- they could have put an automatic stay into the law to require all feeding tubes to be kept in any incapacitated patient where family members disagreed on treatment until final law could have been worked out -- or they could have simply granted jurisdiction without dictating to the courts what they had to do -- but, they had to grandstand and grab for power.


From my understanding, L.R., they did try to do just that, but the votes weren't there, mostly on the Democratic side of the aisle, in the Senate or the House. It was the majority of the Democrats who insisted it be narrowed to apply only to Terri and only to her particular circumstances. And to my understanding, the Senate's wording of the bill was also watered down from "shall" to "may" before the House would pass it.

I just find it so terribly sad that none of these people could put aside their politicking and crossing of t's and dotting of i's interpretation of the Constitution, when their actions directly related to the life or death of an innocent disabled person. It is appalling. Since the right to life is the foundational right, without which all the other rights become moot, somebody, anybody, should have found a way to protect that right. The supposed goal of the law, namely justice, was totally lacking.

In the end, there was no one to stand in the gap and stand up for her right to life. That became a secondary issue. Now Congress can say they "tried", the Executive branch can say their hands were tied, and the courts can feel like they won a pissing match with the Executive and Legislative branches...and life goes on...well, except for Terri's.

I didn't miss it Kacy. I mentioned earlier that Gaddy's lawyer misspoke in saying that Mae had no children. He should have said she was a widow with no living children. She had a son.

I read another article that stated that the two doctors who treated Mae in the hospital recommended hospice to Gaddy because her aortic dissection could possibly one day lead to the development of an anuerysm which could rupture one day and cause sudden death. So I guess to avoid that tragedy of a possible "sudden death" somewhere down the road some day, if at all, a sooner death by starvation and dehydration seemed preferable? Where is the logic in that? I find that as assanine as the people defending Greer's refusal to allow Terri to be fed by mouth because she might CHOKE TO DEATH!

The hospital was also at fault for not verifying Gaddy's power of attorney, which was financial only (she handled her grandmother's finances due to the grandmother's glaucoma). When the brother and siter found out that Gaddy had put their sister in hospice with the order of no food and hydration, they contacted the hospice lawyer who checked Mae's file and found out that the power of attorney was not medical, and that Mae did indeed have a living will, specifically requesting food and hydration except if she were in an irreversible coma, or in a vegetative state.

When it became clear that Gaddy could not act to authorize medical directives for her grandmother, she was advised by someone at the hospital or hospice to seek a temporary court order granting her guardianship, as she did, unbeknownst to the brother, sister and nephew, as they were at that same time sitting in the office trying to arrange air transport for Mae to a medical facility that was better capable to take care of her dissection, since the one she was in was not up to that level of cardiac care.

The judge's order was temporary and restrictive in that it called for Gaddy to provide food, clothing, care and nursing home care, as appropriate (maybe he didn't know that Gaddy had already put her in hospice if he mentioned putting her in a nursing home.)

The issue seems to be the level of food given. Gaddy said she was giving her grandmother jello and ice chips, but apparently refused her being given a nasal feeding tube and IV hydration. And the hospice staff said they 'offered' Mae food, but she didn't want it (maybe due to the morphine and atavan that was being pumped into her?). The brother, sister and nephew argued that she wasn't getting sufficient levels of food, and no hydration, and this was a direct violation of her living will, and they wanted her to be given IV fluids and a nasal feeding tube until they could arrange her transport. And then when the granddaughter took it to court and got the judge involved who ordered a 3 doctor panel to recommend the level of care that would be appropriate for Mae, the brother, sister and nephew argued for IV fluids and a feeding tube while the doctors were making their decision, which took 4 days. The granddaughter refused, and Mae was getting weaker and more dehydrated with each passing day, so that is when the brother, sister and nephew sought help from the media and Terri's bloggers in an effort to save their sister from dying while the doctors were discussing the situation. This time it seems that sanity prevailed and the doctors concluded that Mae should not be in hospice and should be airlifted to the other hospital. Of course this time there wasn't a corrupt judge ordering someone's death.

I think there should be a law requiring food and hydration be given to everyone. I don't see it as a 'medical treatment'. It's a basic human need, without which everyone will die. If someone has to be starved and dehydrated in order to die, then they aren't immenently terminal, and I can't see it as anything but a form of suicide or murder, depending upon who is requesting it. And it's euthanasia just as surely as a lethal injection is.

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43 posted 2005-04-10 09:40 PM


Denise's comment:
quote:
A terminally ill and suffering-in-pain patient should be allowed control over his final moments.

Amen.

What follows is not a decision one way or the other.  Just some food for thought.

Denise, I could not agree with the above  more. Especially since, and for in the most part, "terminally ill and suffering in pain" patients can very well know what they are talking about. Yet, the law dictates that they are "cognizant and knowing" of what they say. Pain will dictate things you never meant to say to begin with.

Remember childbirth? I do. As I am sure you do.

Pain is subjective; we get through it, our brain lets us "forget" how bad it truly was.

And this is akin to what I lived through, what my mother lived through, with my father's pain during attacks of severe emphysema. Call us jealous of death, yes, we were not ready to have the man go. Tirades against death, of a sort and not to the extreme that Terri or the others cited above, gave him a number of future years to know his family-in-birth; that being, all of his grandchildren.

As I look back on it, I can see that I, perhaps all of us, were terribly jealous of death, knowing that a man that young was not deserving of the scythe until much later. And yet, at his age, 65, it was still much too soon, given some mens' years.

I worked to keep my father alive, as did my family. He, fortunately, passed away with family surrounding him; in his home, among the ones he loved.

My father was terminally ill; he was suffering. We should have let him go sooner, perhaps; but somehow I believe he was glad we loved him so much that we tried to make his remaining days as good as possible.

There was a time when he was having one of his earlier emphysema attacks [about 15 years before he died] that I literally witnessed my mother argue with him, when he was begging for his shotgun so he could end his misery, that she argued with him that, by God, if he chose to go, she would go too!

And there I was, pregnant with my first child.  Between my father's attack, and the fact that I was more than some-what pregnant, my mother risked a semi-thought calculated maneuver, and it worked. [She feared her response would put me into labor...]

It was a risky moment. It once again brought WILL power into play. Dad fought to overcome the attack...and he fought hard to fight his disease. My father had, if nothing else, a tremendous will power.

So what is "control" over our final moment? So many people have been documented to come through terrible times and live to tell about it. And so many people that we never hear about live vegetative lives because they were not thoughtful as how to conduct the remainder of their lives, if something untoward should happen to them.

I am trying to stay on topic here. It is hard when I know that there are ways, and physicians, who will "help" us get over the edge, easily enough.

Suffice to say, it is not comforting to me to know that I was found to be allergic to morphine after surgery a few years ago, which is one of the ways physicians can help one "edge" over to the other side.  Conscious, I know well the pain I experienced with the side-effects of morphine. To not be able to speak, and be given "morphine" as an assist is, to me, pure hell on earth.

Ah, one might say, perhaps the "other pain" of whatever I was dying from might be even more.  Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to count on it.

My directives are specific. I am thinking, however, that there will be a day, soon enough, that the laws will dictate, "bring in all of your significant others, husband[s], mother, father, grandparents, children, cousins, aunts and uncles" to get them to witness my decisions on paper, regardless that they are notarized, sent before a court, and printed in stone.

Yes, yes, yes, I work with "them" but it doesn't mean I don't like what they do all of the time....

A never-ending conundrum, I leave this discussion slightly disposed to finding an alternative way.

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354
Listening to every heart
44 posted 2005-04-10 09:48 PM


Denise, it looks as if we were thinking/typing/proposing at the same time. I am sorry if what I said doesn't match your comments now, but I still stand beside what I had to offer.

Thanks.

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648

45 posted 2005-04-10 10:04 PM


I didn't say that, Karilea, Kacy did.

But I do believe that patients should control their end of life decisions. I just don't believe that denying food and hydration should be one of those options, any more than lethal injections should be allowed. And we can see how easily it can be abused by guardians denying life through denying treatment, even feeding. And the judges and lawyers seem to have turned the existing laws on their heads by making people think they have to prove that they do want to live instead of making guardians prove that you want to die. And then we seem to have some doctors with a god-complex and order hospice regardless of a person's written instructions. Crazy world.

I do remember childbirth. If I had known beforehand what was in store, pain-wise at childbirth, I may have opted not to experience the blessing of children. So I'm glad I didn't know beforehand.  

And you don't have to be sorry for expressing your own views.

Alicat
Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094
Coastal Texas
46 posted 2005-04-10 10:21 PM


I really don't want to wonder what's next, though I know I will wonder all the same.  Morbid curiosity.  As mentioned above and known from others, childbirth can be intensely painful unless some form of painkiller/blocker is used.  Infants can be and are a 'burden' on their parents in all senses of the word, but most will gladly take on that burden.  The intensely injured may not be able to speak for themselves, and are not extremely socially productive during their injury and rehabilitation times.  The elderly slowly begin to lose motor and mental functions, reflexes and reaction times diminishing with age.  There are many without jobs, thereby detracting from their own societal input.  Others are homeless with little to no societal contribution.  And then there are those born with very terminal illnesses/injuries and those who contract very terminal illnesses/injuries.

How long before each of those mentioned groups are put on the black list?  I hope and pray never.  I've been proven wrong before though, and will again.  Like abortion being used as a viable form of birth control, lumped together with condoms and preventative pills.  And more and more, I keep getting reminded of "Logan's Run" and "Soylent Green", especially the parts in that movie about 'crowd control'.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia
47 posted 2005-04-10 10:52 PM


quote:

under certain circumstances



I don't argue KC that in some situations it may be the kind thing -- the problem is in defining those situations.  It's a door best kept closed.

But certainly -- patients should, and do have the right to control their treatment (unless they can't afford it).

Karilea --   (there is synthetic morphine you know)

I know that when the time came for my father (and you may go back and read posts about it they should still be here) I was jealous of death too -- and in other circumstances of my life.  

Hospice was absolutely the most benevolent solution to his end of life arrangement -- and it enabled him to die in his own house looking out his own window at the cranes that came up in his own back yard to feed every day.

Denise -- the Republicans have a supermajority in the House -- a five seat majority in the Senate, the Presidency, and most of the judges.  How can these people keep convincing you that Democrats are responsible for anything?  The ONLY power they have in the Federal government is that of Filibuster -- and the Republicans are rattling the sabres to take that away too -- which is another discussion all together..

Remember DeLay's words,

"We can pass any bill we need to."

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648

48 posted 2005-04-10 11:32 PM


So they didn't need a single Democratic vote? They could have passed what they wanted to pass, with the wording used by the Senate? Then why all the concessions to the Democratic members? Could a filibuster have been used by the Democrats in this situation?

Ali, anybody who is deemed a 'burden' to society would be on the black list, if that is the direction that we are going to continue to allow this country to go in.

I still think way too many people don't grasp the gravity of the seriousness of what has been done.

Greer ordered that food and hydration (not just the feeding tube) be withheld from a non-terminally ill person until she was dead, in direct violation of Florida statutes. And used the police force to enforce his illegal order, along with the compliance of the hospice staff, who violated the stated hospice mission.

Obeying orders is not an excuse for murder.
http://www.hospicepatients.org/hosp-fl-suncoast-shame/hospice-nurse-says-family-should-thank-hosp-for-killing.html


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