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suffering(please read)
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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suffering(please read) |
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Persona New Member
since 2003-10-03
Posts 9 |
I fell in a hole with no depth nor space only distanced by time being shuddered by the wails of the lost Forced to recreat the days of the past seeing familiar faces and familiar places lacking want to live I die constantly by suicide suffering the same result I returning to this hellish hole Only seemingly getting deeper and all their voices and images grow faint I fear that I will forget for I will become overwhelmed again no matter how hard I attempt I will always forget |
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Wind
since 2002-10-12
Posts 2981 |
I think that is this pretty good, but you'll get more responses if you don't ask for people to read it. they will if you wait. And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!" |
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pandonov Member
since 2003-10-03
Posts 478b/w conscience and insolence |
not bad, "sadly" interesting |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
I get the picture of a "certain" unfortunate Greek diety pushing a stone up a mountain.... but modern decore. I dig it....could use a little work though, perhaps you should wait for someone who knows a bit more than myself. Even if I gave you my two cents, it wouldn't equal a quarter. ~seth i had fun reading it though. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: This isn’t a hole, it’s a time warp. I know, you’re attempting to sound profound, but there’s just no poetry going on in your post. You’ve attempted to relate a bad dream—possibly after some really bad heartburn—but it’s just not poetically written. Your attempt to pull it off with a “bottomless pit, full of tormented lost souls” metaphor falls short because you fail later to build to an interesting enough climax. It simply falls flat. quote: L 7 is redundant. What, in essence, you’re saying is that you’re deficient in things to lack; in need of want; in want of need—lacking lack? Do you mean, lacking will to live? quote: Nothing memorable here. The weak syntax is simply distracting. Maybe that’s what you were going for? Distract the reader enough and he may forget that he’s simply looking at a bunch of incongruous phrases? Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com www.primerhymeetc.com [This message has been edited by cynicsRus (10-12-2003 03:26 AM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
There is no need to pull out a critical thunder-hammer to approach what has some simple flaws that may be ammended with a fine pair of critical shears. My shears are a bit weak but I proffer what ever they may lend. Here is a suggestion: [cut] (add) I fell in a hole with no depth nor space only distanced by time [being](and) shuddered by [the] wails of the lost. Forced to recreate [the] days of the past seeing familiar faces and [familiar] places. Lacking [want](lust) to live I die constantly by suicide suffering the same result, [I]{and} return[ing] to this hellish hole. (Scops of Old English days made alliteration a tradition in their poetry. It is a virtue indeed.) Only seemingly getting deeper and all their voices and images grow faint I fear that I will forget [for I will become] (becoming) overwhelmed again (for) no matter how hard I attempt I will always forget. I hope that it helps a bit. Welcome to Passions.  Essorant [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-12-2003 12:47 PM).] |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: All well and good—if what you amend actually improves the overall piece, or gives the writer a clearer understanding of how to improve as a writer. You’ve managed to do neither. You’ve deleted and added a few words, which essentially changed nothing. If you were truly honest, you’d admit that some poetry is just not meant to be shared. It should remain in a covered box on a shelf, like an old, model airplane or doll, used now and then, only for spare parts. Fine shears are not what’s needed here. You might consider lopping shears instead. I myself, find the ole chainsaw quite exhilarating. Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com www.primerhymeetc.com [This message has been edited by cynicsRus (10-12-2003 12:59 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"All well and good—if what you amend actually improves the overall piece, or gives the writer a clearer understanding of how to improve as a writer. You’ve managed to do neither. You’ve deleted and added a few words, which essentially changed nothing." Well if each critic added a deal toward what they felt may improve and encourage strongly above platly exploiting faults (which I know is so exhilarating for some...) the effect would probably be more through-artful overall. This is the first post of a poet that may be very green to the art and to criticism. Therefore does this deserve the same advanced criticism you are wont to offer those whose abilities you know well of? "If you were truly honest, you’d admit that some poetry is just not meant to be shared." That is with the poet to decide. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-12-2003 02:34 PM).] |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: I attempted to be honest in my assessment of the post. I don’t feel it’s the job of anyone here to rewrite the author’s piece for him or to attempt to delve into his subconscious nature to reason why he chose to post such a “green” work on a Critical forum if only for platitudes. I would suggest—as I’ve suggested on prior occasions—if platitudes are what one seeks, try OP. They pass them out by the truckload. quote: Yes, in spite of the generalized nature in which I stated it: It is for the poet to decide if what is offered in the way of critique is worthwhile; honest. Enough so, that he would take it to heart and learn from his mistakes. Then, go back to his keyboard and learn to use the Delete key—as well as Spellcheck. Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com www.primerhymeetc.com [This message has been edited by cynicsRus (10-12-2003 03:18 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
What’s so sad about this is that in a so called critical forum it takes eight days and three superficial posts before someone comes along who has the honesty and experience to give a useful critique on a poem riddled with such glaring errors and problems. While I see where you are coming from Essorant it’s a regrettable truth I’ve discovered (based on first hand experience) that attempting to help first time posters at this (very low) level of expertise is practically never productive. I am sure that the reasons vary but it seems to me that many people who post ill-conceived and ill-executed poetry have little other purpose than to use the forum as some kind of “test” to discover whether in fact they are indeed the reincarnated Shakespeare that they suspect they are. You invariably find that such people have no inclination to defend their work or discuss the shortcomings of a piece in an effort to learn. They simply either flounce out or go totally silent. Equally irritating in my view are occasional migrants from Open who pop in to offer a (usually) one line contribution of no critical value whatsoever. Where’s the harm in that you may ask? The harm is that such comments as well as being unhelpful are at best misleading and at worst both misleading and dishonest. In my view Sid needs all the encouragement he can get in what he is doing. He’s the first person I’ve seen in a long while here who seems to be able to post hard hitting helpful critiques without getting squashed by the “pip police”  and if a poet can’t take what he says or debate the issues in a straightforward manner then imo he shouldn’t be in the forum at all.Maintenez le bon travail Sid ! ! |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I don't know about the delete key Cynic...sometimes I think keeping our first attempts can be insightful... I'm with you on the spellcheck. Persona - learn the basics. Learn how to spell. There really is nothing worse than spelling errors in a poem. It's immediately off-putting. If the couple that you have here are just oversights - learn to check your work - become your own ruthless editor. Stand back from your poem objectively. I also suggest you read poetry - if you're already doing so, great. Read more. What you have here seems to be an attempt at melodrama. Wails of the lost. Days of the past. Hellish hole. What you poem says to me is - the subject is going through a difficult time. It just happens to say it in the most cliched of ways. There is nothing new, nothing original, nothing that says 'wow this poet feels this.' To me, you've taken every easy way out and picked all the standard visions of hell, and suffering. This doesn't talk to me. What to build on - you can play with images, that's obvious. You can work with that - try picking a narrower image. Not one of suffering and damnation that's for sure - that's fairly huge. Ever heard of 'Paradise Lost' by Milton? Now that's a looooong poem lol. Bring it right down to a tiny image and write a poem on that. Be encouraged - you posted, got honest replies. Have things to learn from. Cheers,  Kps - just saw you Rob. Good words. Fully endorsed. [This message has been edited by Severn (10-12-2003 04:55 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If you believe critique should be but a tale of woe and given to haughty and inkhornish manners, your critique shall probably soon be more avoided than sought by any. Such critiquing style shall end up leaving only the critics and their own work here for they offer too little comfort. They seems usually more about the critics ego than art itself. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-12-2003 04:58 PM).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
quote: Actually Ess - it's when people like Sid and Rob are active in this forum that the forum takes off. The evidence is clear - honest, no-holds-barred critiques work. They should also be encouraged - how else are poets to learn? Hmm? 'Haughty and inkhornish manners' is merely interpretation - I'd have to say an inaccurate one too. I learned with critiques much like Sid's in a writing course at my university. That year my writing expanded so much it nearly blew my mind. Trust me, they work - for those who are willing to listen. Would say more, already late. K[This message has been edited by Severn (10-12-2003 05:04 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Severn is right btw Persona I meant to say it but forgot in the heat of my rant - read more poetry - can't say it enough, or loud enough! |
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Toad Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161 |
quote: I think you’ve petty much hit the nail on the head here Essorant, the people posting here should be critics, first and foremost they should be the critic of their own work and secondly they should be critical of the work of others. Both are valuable learning tools and we are all still learning (or should be) some may be further along than others but none of us are even close to that capital P we’re all striving to achieve. Persona, I have only your poem to judge how far along the road you are and one poem isn’t nearly enough apart from to say you’re probably a step or two ahead of me. I do know however that all the advice and comments you’ve had so far are useful, as Sid said it’s up to you to take out of them what you want, discuss what you don’t agree with. Or, if you’ve a mind to, politely accept that some opinions differ greatly from yours and simply disregard them. Here’s another btw. Severn’s right in my opinion, it’s too big of a picture painted with a tired brush, you could tinker with it, but without some major rewriting and perhaps a change of focus it’ll never make it past indifferent. That’s the bad news - now the good news, there are four lines in this poem that are salvageable and may give you a new focus: I fear that I will forget for I will become overwhelmed again no matter how hard I attempt I will always forget Instead of trying to describe the decent why not describe looking back from the belly of the pit. (if you do reuse these lines try ‘shall’ instead of ‘will’ in the first and last lines). Thanks for the chance to read and reply. [This message has been edited by Toad (10-12-2003 05:55 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Toad, I agree with that. But if starkness and haughtiness become the idea of criticism only the stark and haughty critics shall remain. And those who may be anything like me, perhaps a bit doubtful about them and about the art of critiquing and not able to carry academic and imperious airs and lord it with sophistication; or who have some humblesse and timideness about them at all will not anything feel comfortable to post attempts while oppressive critics are here. The starkness shall deter people. I promise you. There are people I am sure who would like to post their work in Critical Analysis but are a bit unsure about them and the response they may get. They don't need to be assailed and hammered at if they make their attempts. They should feel welcome and that the critics shall always be friends and ammenders to them. Not make hostile-like critiques that shall probably cause ill-feelings too. It is no virtue if it is going to result in ill relationships. In order to have different opinions and still be agreeable with each other, we must be amiable and kind not stark and oppressive. If we nurture relationships we will naturally nurture the art and criticism and I believe the forum will thrive much better. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-13-2003 02:22 AM).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
But don't forget Ess there are more voices than just the 'haughty' (which I dispute, but then I always do that lol). Your voice for example. Yes, you have quite a voice here...keep using it. The thing is Ess, CA isn't really designed for the fostering of relationships. Go see Open forum for that - that is truly its main purpose. Here, it's meant to be about poetry. People present their opinions in different ways, manners, styles - whatever you call it. You may not like some of those, but you know what - that doesn't make them innately wrong. As a person who frequents, and moderates now, the critical forum I expect diversity. I have worried for this forum (even before I was moderating it) and the insipid flavour it's had from time to time. Frankly, this place needs a harder edge. It needs bold, blunt, arrogance if you like. And you know what? Not everyone will be able to distinguish the above from just plain rude. However, those who want their poetry critiqued - they'll learn to tough it out I hope. Thus ends yet another K rant. K[This message has been edited by Severn (10-13-2003 03:49 AM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
But K, you rant in such a nice way Seriously though Ess, she really is right. I still like to believe we make some friends here. Not all have the same critiquing methods or skills but all voices are necessary to make the forum work. Severn is right too in that your contributions are very much appreciated. And if you choose to critique in a more mild-mannered mode then that is your style and your privilege. That's just another part of the aura of CA. So keep 'em coming Pete |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
But maybe there's a bit of discretion that should be involved? I for one, wouldn't have replied to this poem had this discussion not taken place. Why? I feel that there is more to be changed than can be kept... usually, when that happens, I don't reply because I think I've gotten to a point where I don't like to simply say "You're poem sucks." Yeah, yeah, I know, there's explanation involved, but sometimes I feel that an entirely negative comment will dissuade the person from trying again. I'm not saying that everyone should choose the course I do. But-- Here's a poem, very likely written from the author's own eprspective, very strongly about being miserable. referencing suicide. was this person anticipating the reactions he/she (I'm guessing she) got? I don't know. Is she scared off now? Maybe. Did it deliver a blow to someone who might not be able to take another one? Might've. I agree that CA is not the place to post a poem for cathartic value, or for a pat on the back and "Are you okay?" But... um... I think using a little bit of consideration to the feelings of someone new might be in order... how about: "Hey, Persona. I think your poem needs a lot of work, that you might even have to totally rewrite it with a new focus in mind. Since there's so much to work on, maybe I could suggest that you read the types of poems and replies in this forum to get some ideas, as well as some other poetry such as..." Something to that extent? Perhaps save the ripping apart for people whose level and previous interactions here indicate that they want the ripping apart? BTW Persona, I think the line 'no matter how hard I attempt' is interesting, maybe the crux you should focus a rewrite on... because it's not really clear whether they 'attempt' here is one at suicide or one at self-help. It might be a neat thing to play with. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I'll be driving North this afternoon to Holland, Mi., where I'll spend the night in preparation for a class tomorrow morning at Hope College on Dreamweaver MX. Everyone in the class will be faculty or staff, and at this particular four-year college, it's a given that everyone will be unusually sharp. I've made this trip seven or eight times over the past 18 months, and I have little doubt tomorrow will be both a challenge and an immense pleasure. Challenge and reward, however, don't always take the same forms. A year ago, I spent two weeks teaching much the same material to twelve- to fourteen-year-old kids from disadvantaged schools. Most didn't have a computer at home, and many had never even used email, let alone considered putting up a web site. That class was a challenge, too, albeit of a different form. And my sense of satisfaction, although again of a different form, was equally pleasant. In some ways, my personal reward might have even been greater. I'm not a great teacher, and in too many instances, I'm probably not even a good teacher, but I submit for consideration what I feel is a very simple truth: Those who teach only at or near their own level of expertise will find themselves both limited and limiting. |
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Toad Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161 |
Ron, quote: I knew there was a good reason why I’ve never felt comfortable in CA, it took this one sentence for me to realise that all this time I’ve been trying to teach too far above my station. Teaching requires one prerequisite to be of any use whatsoever – that the teacher is at a higher level than the student. Until I find one person at a lower level than I’m at, or I learn enough to claw myself up to the next level, the sensible thing to do would seem to be to keep my ears and eyes open and my mouth firmly closed. [This message has been edited by Toad (10-13-2003 07:29 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Mainly to Hush and Ron Hush said: “But... um... I think using a little bit of consideration to the feelings of someone new might be in order... how about” I used to believe that consideration for someone new was practically the most important thing in encouraging lively and vibrant participation in a critical forum. No longer. 4 years into my message board exchanges I guess I’ve become a cynical old bore. But then how many times have I tried to help people in the same kind and considerate manner as I was helped when I first started out only to be either ignored, rebuffed, or otherwise effectively either directly or indirectly told that that person was not interested in listening or learning or even debating? I don’t know myself exactly how many but my sense is that for every “serious” person there are at least 30 time wasters. As I’ve said before, there are a lot of people who enter critical forums for entirely the “wrong” reasons and I guess Hush that I’m kind of tired of trying to encourage everyone who comes in with a really horrendous poetic effort just on the off chance that they might turn out to be interested in learning. The odds, without some form of external control, are stacked far too much against, for me to tolerate these days  .Ron you are so so right. Personally I find a great deal more pleasure in trying to teach a person or people way “below” my supposed level of achievement. I guess this is because I feel more confident (being a shy kind of guy ... lol) I can impart some possibility of real substantive progress. I love to teach children best of all. I suppose that’s why I took such exception to the nonsense that went on a few months ago in this thread: /pip/Forum28/HTML/000295.html#29 where I was spending a lot of time and effort trying to help someone who I thought might really benefit and the whole thread was hi-jacked and wrecked by another member on some kind of vendetta. The moderation effort then took the form of an easy “six of one and half a dozen of the other” approach ending in an incredibly patronising and even denigrating closure of a thread that could have been a wonderful progression. Perhaps Ron, in your busy schedule, before you regale us with a resume on the satisfaction to be gained from teaching those with a much lower level of expertise, you might try to ensure that your moderators create an environment where people who really DO want to teach CAN actually do so! Sorry if I sound harsh but your comments were kind of ironic given that I came back a few months ago after a year or so away SPECIFICALLY to try to teach |
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dorotheaellen New Member
since 2003-10-13
Posts 7 |
it seems to me the poem got lost in the thread due to the discussion on critique I hope that doesnt happen to the poems I post here. poems on suicide have to be made special or they don't work the weeping suicide poem is not a good poem usually not it isn't if you could show all of this in image not telling your poem would be far stronger there is no showing outside of a tiny bit in the first stanza read as much poetry as you can that is the best way to learn what belongs and what doesn't watch the print poets<: I do that thank you for taking time to read my comment dorothea |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: quote: I don’t recall anyone taking applications for the job of critiquing on this forum. I thought it was an open invitation for anyone who sought more than patronizing one liners. I offer only what I myself have always asked for: Honesty. Before today, I believed that everyone posting here was seeking more than insincere ego boosting hype. And, I wanted to believe that critics on this forum were more than disingenuous purveyors of positive spin; that there’s no need to build relationships in order to participate—especially given that it’s highly unlikely any of us will ever have Tea and Crumpets together. Why should it matter to anyone how sensitive and loving you are, how often you pet your dog, how soft your hands are, whether you go to church every Sunday or just pray to the Bougainvillea bush in your back yard? We don’t even need to know if your socks match or that you’ve written your favorite lines of poetry in your underwear. In other words, being friends is not a prerequisite to posting or critiquing. We only need to know what shows up on our side of the screen. And, if it’s not very good, and everyone here knows it, we’d simply be remiss in sugar coating or obfuscating the truth as we see it. There are plenty of other forums on the internet that outright ban such “truthful” comments—trust me, I’ve looked through lots of them. This is one of the few I’ve seen where honesty’s actually being encouraged. If some are offended that honest comments are not automatically followed up with insincere fluff, they still have the freedom to search out a more “amiable” forum. There are plenty of those too. Some of you seem to be of the opinion that anyone who gives an honest, albeit harsh, critique is always allowing negative personal feelings cloud his judgment. And that this in turn will always influence the quality of the critique. Yet, I would submit that your Pollyannaish approach will often prove more adverse than a direct, harsh approach. For you see, you’ve predetermined to find something positive, even if a particular piece has absolutely no redeeming value, in it’s submitted form. Who then is doing the most harm here to a new poet who genuinely wishes to learn, to improve and to grow? And, if we decide not to reply because there’s just “more (needing) to be changed than can be kept”, isn’t that being a bit too disingenuous? This seems too much like those Poetry.Com letters announcing: “You’ve Won!” or “Your poem’s been selected in the finals of our latest National Contest!” Much like them, you’re doing people a disservice by handing out false hope. Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Sid I agree with most of what you say. The only modification I'd make is that, difficult though it may be over the net, you need to try and get to know the state of a poster's mind as quickly as possible in order to be as effective as possible as a critic. I'm not talking Freud here ... lol. By all means post a very direct and hard hitting reply to a poem even if a person is new, but then take particular account of that person's first response. How someone initially replies to a harsh but honest critique tells you a deal more about the chances of them eventually being able to write a "good" poem than the original poem itself. It certainly tells you whether you are likely to be able to "work with" them. At the point where you get a mature response I guess I would say that you can start to do as Ess and Hush suggest and maybe soften the presentation of the bitter pill message a bit without jeopardising your own integrity or honesty. So I guess in essence I am saying the same as you. A candid negative critique (if it is honest) is very often the best service you can give someone who seriously wants to improve as it rapidly uncovers the embryonic poet's motivations. This in turn then allows you to modify your approach. By way of example, and at risk of being a bore..lol, I was very candid about SimplyGold's first efforts in CA (see my previous link and here earlier posts) - after an initial hiccup she took it well and expressed an interest in learning which I was able to respond to with maybe a degree or more sensitivity! In contrast I think my first critique of one Radrook's pieces was met with a single sarcastic "WOW" and a less than polite e-mail. Says it all really. R |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Dorotheaellen Poems tend to get lost in threads when the original poster shows no interest in interacting. R |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Whoa, Sid. Back up here just a second. I have to assume you were addressing me in your last reply, since you quoted part of my post. 'Before today, I believed that everyone posting here was seeking more than insincere ego boosting hype.' Are you implying that I'm one of those who doesn't? 'In other words, being friends is not a prerequisite to posting or critiquing.' I don't recall ever saying that it was. I recall saying that keeping a person's apparent experience level and seeming state of mind... in mind when you post critiques. To get to the bare bones of this poem I wouldn't have bothered with had this thread not gotten this extensive: This person appears to be about 16 or so. Do you know how crappy my poetry was when I was 16? And do you know how well 16 year olds take harsh criticisms? No, it's not your job, or my job, to play therapist, but if a small child brought to you a drawing of a rainbow, would you scowl and say "The colors are out of order... Can't you remember ROY G. BIV??? And just LOOK at those clouds...." Many teenagers (If Chrisitian is, indeed a teenager, as I presume) are in an infancy stage of writing, a stage where they seek reassurance and someone to reach out to. Is this the forum to give them that? No. But if we are going to reply, should we use the harshest critique possible? I believe we shouldn't. Which is why I usually don't reply to poems such as this. Which I explicity stated in my first post. It dissapoints me that a little consideration demotes me, in your mind, to "Pollyannish." 'Some of you seem to be of the opinion that anyone who gives an honest, albeit harsh, critique is always allowing negative personal feelings cloud his judgment.' No, I never said that, and I don't think I implied it. I've both given and recieved those in my day... which is fine, since my critique tag explicitly states 'Rip it apart.' And besides, why hide behind 'some of you' when it's quite obvious who you're addressing? Why quote me but not name me, if you have such a problem with my 'approach?' 'And, if we decide not to reply because there's just 'more (needing) to be changed than can be kept', isn't that being a bit too disingenuous?' Well, Sid, you're the one who said that nobody fills out a job application to post here. I have no obligation to reply to poetry I don't like, or which doesn't interest me. 'This seems too much like those Poetry.Com letters announcing: 'You've Won!' or 'Your poem's been selected in the finals of our latest National Contest!' Much like them, you're doing people a disservice by handing out false hope.' Did I ever hand out a glowing review of the poem? Don't you think you're slipping, just a little, into some hyperbole here? False hope? That sounds like lying to someone who has a terminal illness, telling them that they will get better. Bad poetry is not a terminal illness. We all write/wrote it when we first started out. I do think that sometimes overly harsh critiques can tell someone that they really don't have any hope... whereas a slightly softer approach --to a new writer-- might end up being more productive. Rob- 'I don't know myself exactly how many but my sense is that for every 'serious' person there are at least 30 time wasters.' Why waste your time then? Why even bother with the reply? It's sad, but that's the stance I take on it. You can spot people who aren't going to stick around... I eprsonally can say when I don't think someone is worth my time... and in those cases, I simply don't bother. Like I told Sid... there's no obligation. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If a poet has shown an initial interest anyway by posting a piece that shows poetry, I don't see any reason why any any critiquing-disposition should be swayed by ideas that the person may be contrary to learning or a "time-waster". If that person is not going to listen much ultimatly though, there are at least still others that are here listening, which is the virtue of posting in a public place like this. If You may not teach this person right now you are teaching another. But you may be surprised how much the person you think is nothing listening may in truth be taking note of almost everything... [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-14-2003 12:14 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Can some one help? I don't understand why this is a poem. It's not that I don't see it, it's not that I don't get it, it's just that I don't understand why |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
Yes.. Essorant is right...many come to read in here to learn..many of us may not post for various reasons, some of which can be found on this thread...the intentional insulting and egotistical attitude of some and what seems to be a personal agenda of some, will put many off...and as Hush said, its not hard to see how a new and naive poet would be discouraged. Places like poetry.com and so on tell anyone who posts they are worthy of publishing and give a false sense of talent. And according to some of you on this thread, so does all the open forums here in pips...and that attitude really does Ron, his forums and many a fine poet who posts there, a true disservice, as well as makes it sound like the Crit A forum is cliquey and inclusive. There are several times on this post alone where the Open forums are discredited as only being a social hang out where poetry comes second and references to those who post there not being honest in our replies and critiques. So I guess you guys here in CA have a lock on honesty and constructive poetic crit? Sorry guys, but last time I looked this was also an open forum and us "migrants" were welcome. I had a writing teacher a few years ago who taught us about the way to approach critique: "there is a fine line between constructive criticism and insulting potential" He also said: "Never offer your personal opinion as fact, a closed mind is like a closed book...little will be learned." "Ask your self do you want to teach, or do you just like to hear yourself talk?" I learned more from him than most all my other teachers combined. Yes...we all need to keep learning and developing and yes we all need to learn to take honest, hard hitting crit...part of writing is rejection and learning to be thick skinned. We will also have to learn how to crit our work and others but the key seems to be in learning how to do that without shredding self esteem and discouraging untapped into potential. No one sets out to deliberately write a lousy poem. ( NOT EVEN YOU TOAD) I have learned more from reading here in ALL OF pips than any class I ever took.... and yep Craig...that includes from you...so what does that tell you about your above crit of your talent? Most of all I have learned from Ron's examples of fair, honest, respectful interaction. Agree to disagree but leave the cruel intent at the door. Just a few thoughts from the bleacher seats... now I'll "migrate" back to open where some seem to think most of us should stay? Fine with me...there is some incredible talent there...many of which will tell you their first poem lacked greatly...but they were encouraged and were taught and reached deep to see what they could learn and developed a muse that found its own voice. I am grateful every day that I get the chance to learn from them. Welcome to pips to Persona and dorotheaellen [This message has been edited by Janet Marie (10-14-2003 01:44 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Geez, I hardly know where to start ... ummm.. so I won't. Maybe after a whisky or three. Later. P.S. Brad - pass. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Brad, this thread has long since stopped being about "the poem." Pete |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Nah Pete. I just got the answer Brad: "Line-brakes". |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Hush in case you didn’t notice I ain’t been here for a considerable while. I haven’t “bothered with [any] reply” for a heck of a long time. In fact the only reason I’m here now was because I saw an opportunity to have another go at righting an injustice which still rankles and which was pretty much responsible for my long break away. The truth is I like to critique poetry in a effort to help and even no-hopers I’ll have a go at in my own way. I used to accept the “wasted time” on the basis that maybe I was learning something along the way as well. That all changed I guess over the Radrook affair which felt for me somewhat like somebody might feel who has devoted a good while to, say, rehabilitating offenders (not that bad poets are necessarily “offenders” you understand..lol) and who then discovers the police are not only not on his side but not even neutral. Moreover they won’t even do one the courtesy of discussing the matter despite copious e-mails. So in my case you’re dealing with a special case right now, a very biassed case maybe. Best to ignore my current rants  ). Anyway I happen to think that your style of critiquing is excellent (as for that matter is Severn’s - both helpful and courteous). Still, I can’t help also feeling that in a forum without any restriction or parameters in relation to the quality of posts a few “Sid’s” are a great asset. [This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (10-14-2003 06:01 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Ess "initial interest" = please spend lots of time critiquing my poem which i wrote to my g/f in 2 minutes but which i feel nevertheless may compare favourably with the Bard's most famous love sonnets. i should however warn you that if you say one single negative thing about my poem then i will either: a Flounce out having thrown a hissy fit b Sulk in illiterate prose c Vanish [This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (10-14-2003 04:02 PM).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Rob, don't forget D: Come back under another username for revenge. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Deleted because I am in a bad mood today [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-14-2003 04:59 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Janet Nice to see you )Yep I have a personal agenda I freely admit it. But in my defence I’d say that I’ve put quite a lot into this forum over the years and my personal agenda centres around setting something to rights that prevents me from putting more into it in the future. Maybe it’s still wrong to air it in other peoples threads but I am trying to convince myself that “the end justifies etc etc” Perhaps you’re right, possibly discussions like this will put off newbies. Ask yourself why these discussions are happening. The truth is that CA, if it is functioning properly, will always come off cliquey and inclusive. Many (in fact I’d say most) of the people who post in CA want to have nothing to do with Open. The participants in CA while being in the “pip family” are nevertheless in a tiny minority - and yes “different” - look anywhere in the world where tiny minorities exist side by side with majorities and you’ll find accusations of cliquiness (sp) floating around. If that’s a bad thing, which I don’t necessarily accept, might it not be as much the majorities “fault” as the minority? “There are several times on this post alone where the Open forums are discredited as only being a social hang out where poetry comes second” lol.. now COME ON Janet!!! you don’t seriously suggest that Open is primarily about poetry do you!? Unlike some I don’t have any problem at all with the social interaction and friendship based dialogue which typifies all Open poetry forums. Quite the reverse, in fact I think they are wonderful meeting places and sources of great support for many people who are often lonely, in need or some kind of trouble. BUT about commenting on the poetry with some objectivity in mind they most certainly are not! Btw lest you misunderstand that isn’t to say that there aren’t very talented poets in Open forums; there most certainly are, balanced of course by a whole pile of gawdawful ones ... lol. As to CA being an Open forum - humm.. Yes - in the sense that anyone can post here. No - in the sense that too many “fluffy” comments of the type posted in Open poetry as standard should and usually do eventually earn the offender an invitation to desist and then to leave. This is one of my hobby horses as you’ll have gathered. I actually believe moderation of ANY critical forum should include an element of screening. I’m not necessarily suggesting outright banning or exclusion, but polite suggestion perhaps. Too big a topic to cover here though. ““I had a writing teacher a few years ago who taught us about the way to approach critique: "there is a fine line between constructive criticism and insulting potential"” I agree. “He also said: "Never offer your personal opinion as fact, ...........” Anybody who accepts anyone elses opinion in relation to poetry as “fact” is in my book an idiot. Everything I say about poems is necessarily subjective and I’d be horrified if anyone was to take it as “fact”. Sometimes when trying to teach I’ll research a topic and discover that most of the authorities I read agree on a point. I such an instance I might present it in a stronger fashion than if it was something I’d dreamt up myself. There was an example of this in my favourite thread with SimplyGold: /pip/Forum28/HTML/000295.html#29 In case you can’t find the relevant section I’ll copy it here; it was in reply 13 if you want to read the rest: “Electra I missed your reply because for some reason my browser is not updating this thread - it still says that the last post was on Oct 15 and it’’s way down the message board. Anyway no matter. Take your time if you need to, there’’s no hurry with this, however just a few points: 1 I am certainly NOT advocating the use of more adjectives! Adjectivitis is a major contributor to bad poetry whether they are used to describe ““feelings”” or ““things””. Overuse of adjectives waters down a good poem [administrative edit - subjective opinion] On the other hand I am not saying ““never use adjectives and adverbs””. Radrook is quite right, sometimes they can add essential information to a noun or verb. But be sparing!” Ok, now Janet you will note that some heavy handed over zealous moderator (I’d love to know who) took it upon themselves to insert the words “ [administrative edit - subjective opinion]”. Quite apart from being gratuitously offensive after all the effort I’d been putting in, the comment was entirely inappropriate given that I’d said many times that all my opinions are just that: “subjective opinions”. In this case it was doubly inappropriate however as practically every single textbook I’ve read in relation to creative writing says the same thing about sparing use of modifiers with regard to teaching novice poets. Hence my fairly assured mode of delivery. Anyway point made I think, lets move on. “No one sets out to deliberately write a lousy poem.” No-one here would suggest they do. Plenty of people however write poems for reasons other than trying to reach, affect or change a target audience. Mostly self indulgent reasons - mostly rubbish poems. “Most of all I have learned from Ron's examples of fair, honest, respectful interaction. Agree to disagree but leave the cruel intent at the door.” Totally agree with that. No cruelty anywhere. Also, no jealousy, no bickering, no pettiness, no lying, no misunderstanding, no egotism, no false modesty, no sycophantic behaviour, no hollow saccharine sweetness - geez, get me outta here, lead me to Open lol ... ) “now I'll "migrate" back to open where some seem to think most of us should stay?” Oiii wait! Stay and read what I wrote. Bfn R |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Severn Bother, "d" of course. Why didn't i think of that ... hummpphh, must be because I am such a oneusernametypeofguy ... lol. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Interesting discussion and me being too simple minded to use big words and all or follow form in its normal sense, got lost when the discussion came around to defending harsh critiques. Honest ones offered with honest advice would rarely place the writer in a position of being offended I would think. Still... there are many ways to tell a man to go to hell, the trick was to learn to tell him in such a way, he not only went, he smiled as he did and blessed you for the directions.. Some here it would seem... would rather hear them scream... |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
"Honest ones offered with honest advice would rarely place the writer in a position of being offended I would think" Capt ~sigh~ if only! |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Robert, it can be done. I've seen it happen, and on more than one occasion. |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
er .. What can be done Karilea? |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(chuckling) did you just tell me to turn left, go three miles, then take a sharp right turn to the bottom of the hill, robt? amusing... if you did.. but not quite what I was pointing out... well... you know... some of us like me aren't too bright and don't get things the first time around.. |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Nooo Capt Now I’m really confused. All I meant was that honest critiques don't necessarily guarantee no offence. Sid will tell you that, Trevor will say the same, I certainly do. - now on a not unrelated topic, that there Radrook fellow was sooo paranoiac he could take offence at the most honest of honestest critiques - oops, did i mention the "R" word again, so sorry Pete ... and so to bed |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I deleted my comment again. I'm sorry. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-14-2003 09:42 PM).] |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: No, but would you talk to your teenager the same way as to a small child? If you feel someone who posts here isn’t quite prepared for possibly harsh critique, why not simply direct them to OP? quote: Why not? I can remember grade-school teachers tougher than that. quote: This is where I feel the dishonesty comes into play. I’m sure there were others who've wanted to come out and say what I said, but they’re too concerned about making sure someone goes away feeling good about his writing, rather than tell him honestly that his poem is void of…well, poetry. quote: You know, I never even read critique tags. I tend to forget they’re even there. Just as well, why should they influence one’s comments on this type of forum? In fact I only happened to read IndigoEve’s yesterday because the comment was made by the previous critic regarding her age. (she really is a teenager.) Fortunately I hadn’t found the need to be quite as harsh in critiquing her poem, because she at least seems to have a basic understanding of imagery, meter and metaphor. If I had been any harsher, I’m sure I’d be having to defend myself there as well. quote: Even though I quoted you more, I generalized my comment because you appeared to be only the latest who seemed similarly offended. If you like, I can go back and try to even out the number of quotes for you and Essorant...maybe even a few from some other threads. Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Still lost here. critiques --Uh, say what you think. If the poet gets offended, apologise (unless that's what you intended to do). egos --those who critique aren't immune from this problem either. The way, the only way I know, is to talk through it. It does no good to say, "This poem is crap" and the poet gets offended and then you respond, "suck it up". Talk. Talk. Talk. Defending sound bites is like Arnold and Ariana debates. clique --that's what this forum is. Anybody can join, you just have to want to talk about poetry. As far as I can tell, and believe me when I say I don't understand what all this is about, except to say that offense is going to happen, work through it, don't dawdle over what has been said, say something different, talk about the poem, not about the judgement. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I fell in a hole with no depth nor space only distanced by time being shuddered by the wails of the lost (This is not a poem? scuze me? The first two lines introduce a "fall" beyond our grasp of physics--only distanced by time, being shuddered by the wails of the lost--purgatory?) Forced to recreat the days of the past (correct the typo in "recreate" please, it's a bit distracting--I just came back to edit my typo in "pergatory" GRIN) seeing familiar faces and familiar places (a concept familiar since Dante's inferno--NOT a poem?) lacking want to live I die constantly by suicide (interesting--brings to my mind scriptural reference here--the apostle Paul said "die daily" and then of course, there is the reference of being born again, which implies at the least a metaphorical death--this brings to mind the consistent exploration of just that topic--one which the late great Elia Kazan explored in several of his works--my latest favorite being "The Arrangement" in which the protagonist sabotages his cozy life in a symbolic act of "suicide"--because, in order to have a resurrection there must first be a "death.") suffering the same result I returning to this hellish hole (Nature of purgatory as self-examination of patterns--what is that quote that defines insanity? "doing the same thing over and over again — and expecting a different result!")<---Ron? you paying attention? JUST KIDDING!!  yikes, forgive me! Only seemingly getting deeper and all their voices and images grow faint (expresses the feeling of futility to which I'm sure we all relate) I fear that I will forget (I would add that I fear I WON'T forget) for I will become overwhelmed again no matter how hard I attempt I will always forget nicely summed up in the ending to which I already nodded an assent of understanding. In all, I like the representation of ideas, tho I think I would have written it differently. The meter faltered from stanza to stanza and although I tend to find that interesting at times, the flow didn't particularly maintain throughout. I found "Only seemingly" to be a bit awkward in the final stanza, and I think all in all, this is a courageous attempt at a timeless theme--but yes, it could do with some work. As could all of mine, m'friend. Take heart. Me? I'll just migrate...(an interesting thing about birds migrating is that the strongest of wing leads the pack, the "v" formation is a very practical means of traveling for the weaker birds--it's all about velocity...) serenity flutters behind...  [This message has been edited by serenity blaze (10-14-2003 11:23 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Jesus, woman, what do you expect me to write if I can't do any of those things? Or are you trying to tell me something? |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
Rob, I missed your very temperate response in post 24 and apologize. Good advice. I agree with it. The only problem of course, is that it was not the author who responded to my critique. And this thread continued because I felt the need to respond to an offended member who wished to give a “critique of my critique”. In any case, I can see this horse died sometime back and I've beat it enough. (And though tempted to resuscitate it once more, I’ve determined to do my best to allow it to simply remain dead.) Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I don't know...you can get lots of use out of a dead horse...carpet materials, bowls, spoons...rope...brooms! Er... yes K |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
BROOMS? WHO KNEW??? grinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.......... c'mere Kah-ma-lah... miss you lovie? whisk you were here...ROFL |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Severn..you forgot of course that a dead horse may be converted into fertilizer... but, I'm not sure we need any of that in here... lol |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hey, what about glue? Who believes we don't need fertilizer? Pete |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
lol.. a little glue might be good Pete... and I believe this place has enough "fertilizer spread around" to add much more is likely to burn any tender growth and leave only the more hardy weeds. one could of course always make a lamp out of a horse.. I understand Trigger was stuffed so adding a little wiring and a few bulbs shouldn't be any big deal. Of course there is the issue with where to put the switch... one doesn't want it to show, and there might be trouble with it being too camoed in here if it is put in the back. |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
"quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Totally agree with that. No cruelty anywhere. Also, no jealousy, no bickering, no pettiness, no lying, no misunderstanding, no egotism, no false modesty, no sycophantic behaviour, no hollow saccharine sweetness - geez, get me outta here, lead me to Open lol ... ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus, woman, what do you expect me to write if I can't do any of those things? Or are you trying to tell me something? " Brad You really need to pay attention yanno. That was me as in Rob, as in male as in trying to provoke a response from Janet. One whisky too many mon ami? R |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Oh, well, Heaney is God. Walscott is God. Stevens is God. Hey, does that make me a pagan yet? |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
I haven't read the whole thread, and I don't know if it's been observed, but I think it's hilarious that the author of this poem still hasn't said anything in response to you guys, but you've managed to fill two and a half pages of commentary and argument amongst yourself. Kind of like a bunch of hyenas fighting over a scrap of meat. It's cute. I thought this forum was about improving one's poetry, not bantering on and on about who's right and who's wrong about how bad the poem is. Faith is a fine invention |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Persona: Regardless of what the others think, I believe the poem has promise, but in order to bank on its strengths, and to give you an opportunity to exercise your creativity, I recommend that you distance yourself from it a little bit from this poem. quote: Although I don't believe it was your intent, I can read this stanza as the thoughts of a person paralyzed in a violent accident, and with a few adjustments, I believe this could get your poem moving in a different direction. The person paralyzed (i.e., who had fallen into a hole with no ability to move in space, but forced along by the passing of time). Perhaps using the September 11th events as a backdrop ... quote: Granted, this is the best I could do in a short time, but can you see how giving the reader more to identify with can make the reading experience more satisfying? By giving the reader images he or she can see, you can better convey the thoughts and feelings you want to pass on. I would certainly understand if you decided not to return to this forum. I personally believe everyone has the capacity to learn and the onus is on the teacher to identify a student's strengths and begin building on those. Being critical of a poem's shortcomings has its place, but doing so exclusively tends to give the student little reason to want to build on the discrete skills of writing poetry. Jim [This message has been edited by jbouder (10-15-2003 01:28 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Brad I agree about Heaney and Stevens, but Walscott!? .. humm.. definitely too much of the malted. All the pagans are in Open btw. Localparasite lol ... unfortunate name. “I haven't read the whole thread,” Well you should have. There is some good stuff in this thread. Make time. “and I don't know if it's been observed, but I think it's hilarious that the author of this poem still hasn't said anything in response to you guys” No so hilarious, and pretty typical. Note that it was at least 4 proper crits and 8 days into this thread before we started to “ignore” the author. What happened to the “thank you” for the positive crits and the discussion that should have ensued from the exhaustive negative crit that Sid wrote, eh? “ but you've managed to fill two and a half pages of commentary and argument amongst yourself” Commentary and argument is what this forum should be about. Preferably over poetry mind you. “Kind of like a bunch of hyenas fighting over a scrap of meat. It's cute.” Not half as cute as: “oh wow hugggs dear heart”, “omgg this is soooooo heart piercingly good”, “ohh myy sooooo beautiful”, “ohh wow and geez you make such beautiful music with your poetical words” and so on .. I’ll give you one guess where you’ll find that! “ I thought this forum was about improving one's poetry, not bantering on and on about who's right and who's wrong about how bad the poem is.” I thought that discussing how bad (or good) a poem is might help to improve it? No? Umm sorry my mistake maybe. Funny how once a thread in CA gets above 50 replies all these aliens appear. Jim I respect your attempt while at the same time feeling that it’s misguided. But there again I may be wrong .R |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
R Do you mean the attempt is misguided or the philosophy of teaching? If the former, maybe, if the latter, I'd say you are definitely wrong. Are the critiqued and critiquer the only beneficiaries of an analysis? The effort is only wasted when nobody benefits. I can only hope the writer appreciated the advice, but I'm fairly certain I enjoyed the exercise. Jim |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
"Funny how once a thread in CA gets above 50 replies all these aliens appear" LMAO... it would seem Robt... that with this statement you have set yourself on one side of the evolutionary chain and the rest of us on another... how self fulfilling.... lmao |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Jim The philosophy of teaching is of course fine, and I endorse it myself as you know. Its application in this environment is hazardous and in the specific instance you are trying to use it (given the history of this thread) I’d say you are totally wasting your time. Hence “misguided”. The ever reasonable ... Rob [This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (10-15-2003 04:10 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Capt Even for a poet that’s a pretty big leap - Darwin would be impressed! Just for the record, is it your hypothesis that aliens are above or below us on the evolutionary chain? Yoda Rob |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Yoda...lol... I would have no idea if they were above or below... but to simply classify anyone as an alien, would in some way imply they were not the same as you, which might then be taken as being on the other side of some border drawn in fact or in imagination... I didn't realize there were borders here. Now as for evolution... perhaps a bad choice of words... but alien again not being the same as the person speaking.. would imply that if the person speaking thought themselves someplace on the evolutionary scale..and the other is alien..then they are not in the same place on the same scale or are on another evolutionary scale. not such a big stretch..lol... |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Capt I take your point You need to get aligned with my horrid nasty but harmless (usually) sense of humour The serious point is that there really ARE borders in PIP. I think you are deluding yourself a little if you think otherwise. But some borders are ok, no? There are boundaries and borders everywhere. R |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The more the merrier. It likes me to come here more often as well, when there are more people and more activity. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-15-2003 04:36 PM).] |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
"The serious point is that there really ARE borders in PIP. I think you are deluding yourself a little if you think otherwise. But some borders are ok, no? There are boundaries and borders everywhere." there are always boundaries.. self imposed, imagined, or enforced. I have been called delusional..lol.. but usually pragmatic. how you view borders and whether or not you chose to use them to separate yourself or isolate yourself from others is in part the measure of the person who defines them... (laughing)... aliens... hmmm.. I may indeed fit that bill.... [This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (10-15-2003 04:47 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
...aliens... Ye better be wary; I heard sigourney weaver has a username here as well. She's pretty harsh with aliens so I would watch out for her critique-style. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-15-2003 09:37 PM).] |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Ess... her style as I remember was pretty brutal... but she was certainly not brutal to the eyes...lol... maybe she'll critique me personally... |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Rob: Perhaps "sabotaged" is a better word than "misguided." I think an overly harsh criticism too early in the learning experience extinguishes the desire to continue learning. Somebody mentioned the use of discretion earlier in the thread. By analogy, if I looked at a roundhouse kick by one of my whitebelt students and said, "That wasn't even a roundhouse kick. It was slow, awkward, off-target, and weak," the student would probably quit before learning to do the kick much better. But if I was to focus on one discrete element of the kick that was good, point it out to the student, and offer a correcting technique (e.g., pointing the knee at the target before kicking), the beginning student would be on the road to improving his or her roundhouse kick. On the other hand, if I told that same student he or she had a fabulous roundhouse kick, perfectly delivered, and that he might just be the next Bruce Lee, there would be little incentive for the student to improve. That's where I think the discretion comes in. We should try to match the instruction to the student. That was the reason for my original post (I think Persona is long gone by now) and that's the only way I know to get the best outcome. Jim |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Jim I DO see where you are coming from, of course I do. I just meant that you were being a little optimistic expecting results given the history of the thread and the non-response from Persona early on. Rob |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
*scratches head* So, I'm about to beat that dead horse again, since, y'know, I'm not around too often and I tend to fall behind in these conversation when about 2 millions posts get posted before I get back, but... Sid, how on earth is it dishonest for me to not reply to a poem I didn't like? Isn't that the easiest, most efficient way of telling an author "I didn't like your poem," to not reply to it? Contrary to what you seem to presume, I didn't have all these in-depth ideas about this poem, nor did I have a lashing criticism. I didn't refrain from replying to avoid hurt feelings. I didn't reply because I didn't like it. In fact, I didn't like it to the point that it bored me... and when a poem bores me, I find that I usually have almost nothing constructive or worthwhile to say about it. So why would I waste my breath (er... typing energy?), the author's time, and anyone else's time by posting something that I consider to be of very little value? I consider constructive criticism to be of value. You may not... or your definition of constructive is very different than mine, because in rereading your first post, I found nothing constructive. No suggestions, not even a curt "Read more poetry, take more time, post again when you get better" type of suggestion for if you thought to poem was unsalvagable. I thought it was unsalveagable, except for one line which I thought could be refocued and rewritten. Even if you think the entire thing ought to be scrapped, you can state it more politely for an early-stage writer. BTW, of all the "negative" critiques here, I thought Severn's was the best. She never praised the poem, or said it was good or anything... but she was constructive. That's the point I've been trying to make. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
There have been and will continue to be many who come here for their first post without reading and learning the forum first. Many of those appear to be absolute beginners. I was when I first came. Some of those learn quickly that they are probably over their heads and they opt to get out and not come back. I am obviously a slow learner. Some do stay around and some learn quickly from the criticism. Others just seem to want to defend their position in spite of the almost unanimous reviews. Who can explain human nature? In any event, regardless of what some others might say, I think this thread has been informative and, therefore, useful for most, if not all, of us. It probably has been a little unnecessarily brutal at times. I do absolutely agree with you Jim. We must all try to contain or own egos and teach at a level appropriate to the student. Rob, while saying that, I also have to agree that this may not be the best place for some to start. Pete Oops, looks like Hush posted while I was typing. I'm slow at that too I had to come back and second what she said. If you don't think a poem has any hope, it just might be better to ignore it rather than go out of your way to try to insult the poet (I use that term loosely)[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-17-2003 07:12 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I would like to point out that this is an intimidating forum for many. It took me a long time to brave a "hard critique" and when I finally did--I was virtually ignored. I also understand that it is a two-way street, and in a previous thread I also confessed my discomfort giving a critique--and asked for guidance in that area. And now I, and others, have been termed migratory and alien for the attempt. As a mere "deputy" moderator, I was taught to encourage and welcome new posters to individual forums. I found that welcome sadly lacking in this particular forum. Open forum is continually sniffed at as being "fluff"--as replies of no apparent constructive criticism ARE quite often offered there. I was also taught that no critique should be offered unless the critique flag was offered up by the author. (This particular point is obviously MOOT here, yes?) Therefore, when I reply, if no critique is asked for, I TRY to find something positive to say--or at the very least, let the author KNOW that I was there. I honestly thought that was part of the job of a moderator. I find it a bit ironic that Open forum is avoided by many as being "cliquish." And yet the only time I have encountered that is in the smaller forums. (Perhaps a "knee-jerk" reaction to cliquishness is to form your OWN clique? --oh..but-- "ours will be better, since we are so much SMARTER???") I do suggest we all maintain a sense of humor as well as humility. I offer this link, not in any seriousness, but as an example of ALL the things we can find wrong with each other's work, but, I think in order to grow, we must keep that discerning eye level at our OWN offerings. I am guilty of all forty on this particular list. http://www.speakeasy.org/~anitra/writing/humor/categories.html (But yes,I found #39 particularly amusing.) Now...I'll just adjust my the antennae on my head, and migrate back to my planet. leedle |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Thanks for the link Karen. It was great and almost too appropriate. I think you misjudged CA just a little in your comments but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Thanks, Pete |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: (Reluctantly getting back on that dead horse…) See, here’s where I possibly misunderstood the idea behind your post. I’m willing to admit that, since I don’t know everyone on the boards yet. However, my initial response was inspired as much by the first three replies to this “poem.” I feel such replies to poetry that (in my opinion) is not very good, is disingenuous and that’s the direction I thought you were inclined to take as well. I’m quite happy to be proven wrong by the way. quote: Now, here you seem to be “presuming” that I have an obligation to write a person’s poetry for him or simply make him feel good. I have no such obligation and neither do you or anyone else here for that matter. I certainly don’t like people trying to write or rewrite mine. And, I’ve certainly never attempted to elicit only positive opinions. "Read more poetry, take more time, post again when you get better?" Such responses are passed out on poetry forums ad nauseam. If they haven’t sunk in by now, why should I waste the time it takes to write that extra sentence in my own post? If you’ve seen some of my other critiques, you’d already know that I give advice as best I can, when I think the poem is really worthwhile. And, though I’ve never claimed to know as much about poetry as others here, I feel I’ve at least learned to recognize a potentially good poem. I’ve also learned how to recognize hopelessly clichéd poetry that can’t possibly benefit from equally clichéd responses. quote: Savern’s seemed to be posted mainly in an attempt to temper my response—as well as to possibly reinforce Essorant’s. If you read it carefully, you would have seen, she offered no more a “constructive” opinion as did I. Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: The problem with clever subtlety, Karen, is that the ones who should get it probably won't. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
b-but? Ron? #39 is the only thing that made it funny. That one is MINE. 'k?  |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Sid - just so you know. I don't post critiques to temper anyone else's. When I feel you need tempering - I'll tell you straight out. Oh, and it's SEvern, not SAvern. Cheers, K |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
SEvern, You forgot [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-18-2003 09:56 AM).] |
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garysgirl
since 2002-09-29
Posts 19237Florida, USA |
I edited myself out after reading Pete's post here....... /pip/Forum28/HTML/000857.html Thank you, Ethel [This message has been edited by garysgirl (10-18-2003 08:42 PM).] |
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BluesSerenade Member Patricius
since 2001-10-23
Posts 10549By the Seaside |
I think I'll just hang out here for a while and read. Gawd, I have so much to learn.... I feel like I've just sat through a 4 hour lecture, and it's about what???? |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Well, I thought it was about dead horses? Personally, Blues, I think it might be a plan to take what you can from it...something for everyone in here I think... Kps - Ess, I wasn't in the mood before... |
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Persona New Member
since 2003-10-03
Posts 9 |
hmmmmm....... coming back to the site just a few days it took me a while to read every post and I would have to say....... You guys are crazy.... Some of your posts were good but others think they know so much that nothing is good. Its like some of you try to hard to act knowledgable about poetry when poetry is ment to be form of expression, and creativity; however, I guess its human nature to make thing more difficult(in a atempt to progress) to add more fun to the situation or make it harder for other to be looked on as good, whatever they are trying to do(look at all the wars and hate that caused, even in this simple thread it has happend). All I can say is thank for your good(most bad/unrelated) comments. This was my second poem I ever wrote I was 10, trying to right like Edger Allen Poe, The Raven really influenced me to write. However that being 10 years ago I still see good poem, for I wrote note nowing the rules(which are out of control) and just writing to write because I was inspired. You guys are obviously older then 10 and grown used to the limitations that have been brought upon you by your own selves, surounded by your four walls and your selling made out of you knowledge,(more so poetry) only to have a little window with steel bars acrossed, (representing your ego.) Only allowing you to see out but never crawl out. Even though all can change and you can be free you decide to stay....why is that? Because you would rather be remembered as great poet(or whatever) rather then be free and looked at as abandoner. Emily Dickenson, or Edger Allen Poe never had that problem why becuase they didnt write for others they wrote for self....So I say this you read more poetry for you can be like them, so you can be in that prison you made for yourself, because you right to impress others then impress yourself(unless you do it by impressing others) That aint for everone just the bulk of people you know who you are. |
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