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eminor_angel
Member
since 2003-05-22
Posts 323
Canada

0 posted 2003-09-03 07:22 PM


I hate to be annoying, but seriously, what's with this forum? I've critiqued at least five poems so far, but my poem hasn't gotten a single one. Some people seem to just be posting poems, even several of them, and not critiqing others. That's just not cool. So there's my rant, tell me what you think, or better yet, so critique some poetry.

© Copyright 2003 eminor_angel - All Rights Reserved
warmhrt
Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563

1 posted 2003-09-03 08:07 PM


I tend to agree with you...the rules of the forum are seemingly being ignored. That is, if the rules are still the same as when I joined. Then, you were to reply to at least three poems when you posted a new topic. It did make for a much more interesting and lively forum. We need a few words from our moderaters on this one. Pete! Brad! Severn!

Kris

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
2 posted 2003-09-04 12:01 PM


Sadly, I have to agree. "Never have so many owed so few so much." Well, that may be a little over the top but it does seem like the is a small group doing all the work here.

We all have different abilities. It is probably a natural fact that those better equipped to do so will provide the majority of the usefule analyses. Everyone should, regardless of actual ability though, do their best to contribute.

I think newer members may be a little timid about jumping on another's work. After a time though, most do gradually come around.

Thanks for bringing this up. We just need a reminder from time to time.

Pete

Always Lisa
Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133

3 posted 2003-09-04 07:30 PM


Well, darling. (May I call you darling?) I got a bad taste in here when it comes to one of the moderators. Consider that as a contributing factor for my absence in offerings. Too many hands in the cookie jar and you'll always find a crumb that thinks he's a big chip.

I'm still reading a couple of you though. Happy writing.

Regards,
Always Lisa

cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
4 posted 2003-09-05 02:14 AM


quote:
I got a bad taste in here when it comes to one of the moderators. Consider that as a contributing factor for my absence in offerings.



Which brings up another possibility: Either some are afraid of having their opinions challenged, dismissed or simply belittled. Or, they simply tire of debating those who are too full of themselves to offer anything really substantive in the way of real help. (I’m speaking mainly of my experience on other sites.)

Then, there are the others—beginners, mainly—who simply don’t think their own opinions amount to very much. Thinking that because they’re new to the forum, their opinion surely can’t be as valid as someone who’s posted close to half a gazillion times; not realizing that half of those half gazillion posts are simply fluffy little one or two word comments, i.e. “Nice job!, Love it!, Wonderful!, A keeper!, Great poem!,” etc, ad nauseam. My point here, being that, the main purpose of the “comments rule” seems to be about stacking the forum with new posts—not necessarily about helping anyone to grow.

You might also consider that certain poets don’t really feel all that comfortable yet in critiquing every aspect of every poem Where someone may feel compelled to only critique another’s punctuation, someone else may feel he’s/she’s more knowledgeable in matters regarding meter, or rhyme scheme.
I personally had never participated in critiquing poetry before joining this site, but was really desirous of getting helpful feedback on my own work, so I had to force myself to participate more—to give an honest opinion at the risk of possibly hurting some feelings, or deflating someone's ego. But, that's what I look for in someone else’s feedback of my work.


Sid@cynicsRus.com

[This message has been edited by cynicsRus (09-05-2003 02:16 AM).]

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

5 posted 2003-09-05 02:52 AM


I'm liking this thread.

I think that in every aspect it shows the need that there be some sort of instruction in just what constitutes a HELPFUL critique.

I've been here awhile and still don't know how to respond properly--and that fact HAS kept me out of this particular forum.

I do hope that can be remedied for many of us. I do believe that in order to learn to write well I must first learn to READ well.

I look forward to participating in a workshop or even just a discussion of just that topic.

*tank-you-veddy-much*

curtsey and exit...

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
6 posted 2003-09-05 06:00 AM


Serenity I am the same...
I hope someone will find the latest question I ask in the "On Constructive Critiquing" thread...

[This message has been edited by Essorant (09-05-2003 06:02 AM).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
7 posted 2003-09-05 12:22 PM


That is a weak excuse, Lisa.

Sid has pretty well described the situation. Some have more experience and some even have more skill than others. Newcomers are likely to be a little timid at first. The point is though that regardless of your skill level, if you make an honest effort to critique then it will be useful. Often it will not be a positive comment but it will still be useful.

warmhrt
Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563

8 posted 2003-09-05 01:40 PM


We all have to remember that this IS Critical Analysis, where one expects, or should expect to get their poem critiqued. Our moderaters have had a lot of experience, and when one takes the time to critique your poem, you should be thankful. They are only here to help poets learn and develop their skills. Yes, what they say is their opinion, but it is also an opinion based on a level of years and skill. People who post in here must have a little bit of a tougher skin than most other posters.

Kris

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu

Always Lisa
Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133

9 posted 2003-09-05 04:54 PM


>That is a weak excuse, Lisa.

Weak hm...Just the facts sir... Now how in the heck do I un-member myself? I'd hate to make you suffer though any more of my weak offerings.

Happy penning.
Always Lisa

Robtm1965
Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263

10 posted 2003-09-05 06:15 PM


Sadly, I have to agree. "Never have so many owed so few so much." Well, that may be a little over the top but it does seem like the is a small group doing all the work here.


And I wonder why that is?

Could it possibly be that CRITICAL ANALYSIS suffers from the malaise of rampant committee governance with the vast majority of the committee having little or no interest in serious and honest critique and the effort it involves, nor any patience with, or understanding of, the tensions thereby generated?

Some might argue that with a main site entrance portal like that of PIP there is little chance of any “analysis” let alone a “critical” one.  

I don’t hold with that view.  I’ve seen enough over the past 4 years to convince me that CA COULD work if the current moderators of the forum were given more or less complete autonomy to run it as they wish without the interference of other so called “senior” non-CA forum moderators, and, absolutely crucially, without the constraints of the overall PIP policy in respect of personal behaviour.

As long as the present situation pertains this forum is destined to remain a trendy “must- have” add-on to the main site; a sop to the more intellectually inclined; little more in fact than a dreary slow Open forum: too undisciplined for serious debate and advancement, yet too rigid in areas which hardly matter if all you wish to do is to learn how to advance your writing and help others to do so in the process.

In short, a shameful waste of resources.

[This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (09-05-2003 06:22 PM).]

cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
11 posted 2003-09-05 08:17 PM


quote:
In short, a shameful waste of resources.


I’d stop way short on calling it any kind of waste. I think it is indeed far different from the other forums, in that honest debate is at least tolerated.
Heck, I fully expected for someone to call me on some of my comments which have been none too kind at times—I’ve at least tried to be honest though.
I must also say, I’ve received some very helpful suggestions in the past that I’ve since used to revise and improve certain writings of mine.

I’m not really sure what goes on with the politics of this forum, nor what, if any the “constraints” are. But, I can see that members such as yourself could join in and offer a helpful critique every other day or so. (I haven’t seen anyone try to squelch the debate.) If that would happen more often with others as well, I think there probably would be no need for this particular thread. The premise would be academic at best.

I do think it’s possible to put too much stock in the opinions of “senior members” and the like. In the end, such titles only mean that they might have way more time on their hands to post all those extra little cutesy comments that may or may not endear them to the average poster; who has maybe a few minutes a day to add to one or two threads, and oftentimes is looking for serious critique.


Sid@cynicsRus.com

[This message has been edited by cynicsRus (09-06-2003 06:43 PM).]

wandering glider
Senior Member
since 2001-04-04
Posts 501
aloft
12 posted 2003-09-05 11:46 PM


Assuming that a "Critical Analysis" forum is to be taken seriously, and for the purposes of this thread, a critic is ???

Can anyone answer that question?
Names?
Qualifications?
Experience?
This might be a good place to start.

The definition, description and code of this forum is not easily found, making it difficult to understand what is supposed to happen here.  Can someone tell me where to find this information?

Thanks.

glider

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
13 posted 2003-09-06 12:43 PM


*shrug*

It comes in waves, much like anything else. Sometimes, this forum is just full of interesting threads, and productive commentary... and sometimes it's slower. I used to read and reply to at least one or two a day in here... but I have tremendous writer's block right now... and that kind of bleeds over into the critique quality. I'm sure I'm not the only one...

Plus, there's real-life to contend with, and work, and school, and... *sigh* I'm happy to ahve enough time on the computer to get my scanty e-mail anymore.

BTW Lisa, coming from a non-moderator point of view... I agree with Pete. I assume you're talking about the exchange you had with Brad recently? He's a blunt person, and he usually says what he thinks without modifiers like "I think". (Brad, am I being fair so far?)

But so what? Why should that keep you from enjoying this forum, if you really want to?

cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
14 posted 2003-09-06 12:56 PM



quote:
Assuming that a "Critical Analysis" forum is to be taken seriously, and for the purposes of this thread, a critic is ???



A critique forum is only as serious as its participants. And, usually one derives as much or as little as they wish to accept. If you come to such a forum expecting that no one knows what they’re talking about and therefore has nothing to offer, then you’ll leave with nothing. If you’re willing to accept another person’s opinion, (because that’s all they are after all: Opinions) then you can leave, possibly having found a means to improve—even if only a little. No one expects that everyone here has all the answers, but if enough members participate, it’s possible you may find enough answers among them.


quote:
Names?
Qualifications?
Experience?
This might be a good place to start.


Research the forums; learn which poets and writers have the most experience, based not only on the amount of posts, but also on the quality of what they post.
Notice whether their critiques are substantive and based on a thorough or somewhat limited knowledge of poetry—but bear in mind, even those with limited knowledge will often offer a cogent analysis.
Then, you can judge for yourself.
But, then again this will have to be based on your opinion as well, won’t it?

Sid@cynicsRus.com

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
15 posted 2003-09-06 04:30 PM


Hello Robt. It's good to hear from you again. You have presented some interesting observations, or questions. Most of your analysis, of course, I don't agree with. In fact, I would strongly disagree with most. For example:
quote:
Could it possibly be that CRITICAL ANALYSIS suffers from the malaise of rampant committee governance with the vast majority of the committee having little or no interest ...

Critical Analysis is not governed by any committee other than its own moderators. There are overall guidelines (rules if you will) with which all PIP forums comply, rules primarily relating to unacceptable poetry and/or behavior. Opinions of other moderators may be requested if a situation develops where the CA moderator is undecided whether it is necessary to step in.
quote:
... CA COULD work if the current moderators of the forum were given more or less complete autonomy to run it as they wish without the interference of other so called “senior” non-CA forum moderators,

As I said above, CA is not "run" by "so-called 'senior' moderators." It is not even run by the CA moderators. It is run by and for its members, the group as a body as opposed to any particular individuals. The moderators are here only to ensure that discussions are within bounds. More on that later.

In spite of what some may think, it does work and quite well. Yes, it is slow but that is a good thing. Activity does fluctuate but I think that is the destiny of any "slow moving" forum, especially one with a technical objective.
quote:
... and, absolutely crucially, without the constraints of the overall PIP policy in respect of personal behaviour.

Well, that just isn't going to happen. There are plenty of sites out there that allow any unsavory personal behavior. If anyone really wants that kind of interaction then I would encourage him or her to go there instead of here. PIP has always and will always demand that its members treat one another with respect. Boorish behavior and personal attacks will not be tolerated at all. Harsh critique, however, is allowable but it must be done properly, with due respect and tolerance toward the author. That usually implies some constructiveness but not necessarily. The same, of course, is true of comments on any critique.
quote:
... In short, a shameful waste of resources.

Well, Sid has covered this one quite well.




Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-06-2003 04:38 PM).]

Robtm1965
Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263

16 posted 2003-09-06 07:34 PM


Pete

Ok so I was being a tad provocative but nonetheless I’ll stick to my guns and suggest that you are being, probably unconsciously, a little economical with the truth.  Over the years since Brad first dominated the moderating of the forum I’ve watched standards fall (what I mean by falling standards is another debate).  In those early days for various reasons (which again I won’t elaborate right now) Brad seemed to be able largely to do his own thing, and while frivolity reigned, alongside it so did a good deal of serious debate from some clever people.  Time wasting show-casers were given short shrift and people who wanted to learn and put in some effort (like myself) were not patronised and were encouraged.  

The reason I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying that you are “unconsciously” bending the truth is that the incremental invasion of the Open forum mentality has been slow and insidious as Passions has become home to so many “recreational” writers who often view  writing poetry more as a conduit for social interaction with their friends than a process of artistic creation.  Nothing wrong with that at all, but it’s meant that the administrative back up on the site has correspondingly become slanted in that direction, and whatever you say Pete I know that over time this attitude change has permeated CA and the way it is moderated.  As for the influence of “senior” Mods this is somewhat inevitable given the propensity for problems and discussions in the forum to be aired on a communal board in the Mod forums.  This attracts comments, opinion , advice and less desirably (and I know it happens) gossip and sometimes heavy handed “interference”.  None of these - even the more positive feed back is healthy in my opinion from people who have no direct involvement in the forum.

As for your contention that the forum is not “run” by the Mods but by the members you are both right and wrong.  Unfortunately for some time the moderation of CA has followed, as I have intimated, the pattern of moderation for an Open forum.  Basically - jump in when the site rules are being apparently violated and not otherwise.  This is simply not good enough in a serious Critical forum which is in the sorry state that this one is in.  Somebody must provide guidance and help for new members who wish to learn, somebody should also referee debate and somebody should sit hard on posters who waste other peoples time with inappropriate posts.  Ideally, I agree, that it is far preferable that these functions should be carried out by responsible experienced members, and indeed this used to happen a while back.  But by moderating the forum as an Open forum such members are discouraged and disillusioned until there are insufficient carry the load of work.

The “speed” of the forum is irrelevant.  Slow can be great if it is slow quality.  Slow and fluffy (and I don’t mean a disabled bunny) which is what it is most of the time, is horrendous.

I never suggested I was in favour of unsavoury behaviour.  Quite the reverse, I abhor it.  That doesn’t mean to say that CA should be subject to exactly the same constraints as other parts of the site.

I agree with most of what Sid said - and if everyone was like Hush we wouldn’t be having this discussion at all :o).  I certainly didn’t mean to imply that all in CA is a “waste”.  What I did say though, is that resources are being wasted.  

I stand by that - they are.  


cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
17 posted 2003-09-06 09:11 PM


Forgive me for possibly speaking out of turn here.
As I said before, I don’t presume to know the politics behind this site, nor would I dare make any implications as to the biases therein. And, where I’ve found Pete to be one of the most even handed, temperate moderators on any forum, I do however feel that Rob made a very compelling case. I base this on experiences gained visiting many other forums before coming here.
I can’t help thinking he’s only desiring the same thing I’ve desired since coming here: Honest critiques and opportunities for open debate.
I don’t mind being required to post so many comments for every post I initiate, but if it means I’m forced to either dole out countless “atta-boys,” or limit the poems I post—I’d rather hold off and post fewer times.

Sid@cynicsRus.com

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
18 posted 2003-09-07 01:28 PM


It truly is a shame we can't all be as good at criticism as Hush. She certanly is one of the best. I, along with many others, i'm sure, have long admired her talent and abillity. Some of us could certainly try a little harder and doing so would certainly improve the experience for everyone here.

I have to agree with you, Rob, that there was a time when the overall quality of the forum was better. But it has always fluctuated, even when Brad "dominated the forum." I never claimed to have his knowledge of poetry or his ability to critique poetry. I agreed to help moderate some time ago and, since this was the only forum that interested me, it was the logical place to work. I can't say whether that contributed to the good or the bad of the forum.

It probably did seem the Brad was able to set the mood of the forum without outside intervention but I believe that was due to the personal constraint of the members. You may not see it so but this forum still operates in much the same manner. It is a rare occasion that an outside moderator interferes here. And then it is only in an extreme case. The regulars do have a life outside PIP, after all.

There are precious few restrictions on the PIP forums and CA does even tend to excuse some minor "pushing of the envelope" beyond those. There are a couple of things that are simply not allowed at PIP. I don't pay the bills so I didn't make the rules. I, along with others do have some input but I don't expect them to change much.
quote:
Time wasting show-casers were given short shrift and people who wanted to learn and put in some effort (like myself) were not patronised and were encouraged.

This could be interpreted to mean those whose writing ability you do not respect. I don't think that was your intent. I think I know the ones you mean. Yes, there are some who post poetry here that obviously should not have been posted. Today, they are largely ignored while Brad may have had a little more gruff way of suggesting they were wasting our time. As I said before, maybe he posessed enough knowledge to handle it that way. I'm not so sure that I do. I guess I have a milder style than Brad.

As for the rest of it, well, everyone has an opinion. I'm not saying there is no truth to your argument. There certainly is. As you have compromised somewhat with me, I feel I must do so too. To some extent, resources are being wasted. As this is recreation for the vast majority of us, I believe as certain amout of waste is inevitable. I'm not sure it is a completely bad thing.

There is one point we appear to be in total agreement on though. I too would like to see more in depth discussion. Maybe threads such as this will get that old spark going again. Who knows? It just might work.

Pete



Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
19 posted 2003-09-08 08:03 PM


Personally, I quite like Pete's lighter touch. But people are crying out for more in depth discussion -- great -- let's talk about it. What do you want to talk about?

Hmmm, what cracks me up is that I come back and I've already scared at least one person away (and who makes it very clear that the reason she no longer posts is I). And yet, and yet, the irony is clear to me and I hope to anyone who actually read that discussion that there is a difference to those who wish to pass judgement sans criticism and those who wish to discuss poetry. And the difference is simple:

1. Is this a good poem or a bad poem?

2. How can it be better?

If you don't ask these questions, if you don't accept the presuppositions already present, you aren't ready to discuss poetry.

What do you want to do?

Robtm1965
Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263

20 posted 2003-09-10 06:36 PM


Sorry for the delay, been away a few days.

Pete and Sid there’s a lot I agree with there and some I don’t.  I’ve no time to ramble right now so I’ll just say that in general IMO the line between a personal attack and an attack on a person’s writing has become too porous in recent years in this forum.  It’s very easy to fall into the “Open forum” mentality (especially when open forum moderators have an input) of interpreting an adverse criticism of a poem as an attack on the author (or more usually a veiled attack on the author).  This is in itself insulting, tedious and demoralizing for the guy or gal who has often spent a while putting together the critique.  At risk of mentioning the unmentionable pffa I’d say that they have this aspect of their moderating right, or at least a lot more logical than some of the moderating I’ve seen hereabouts.  On the other hand the stifling of debate in pffa and the effective ban on discussion and any defence of a piece by it’s author is unbelievably short sighted and Brad and Pete’s completely contrary approach towards encouraging debate is one of the really good things about CA.  More often than not it breaks down in practice though for some of the reasons I’ve already mentioned (more on that another day).

And Brad put his finger on it in his last reply - a discussion started - a member left.  Fine.  She shouldn’t have been here in the first place with a congenital deficiency in her ability to debate like that.  Maybe that sounds harsh, but if more people took (or were allowed to take) the lines Brad took, and has in the past taken, then maybe a more serious and open minded set of debaters would be attracted while those with inbuilt “Radrook type” prejudices would be discouraged before they even started - and yes, Pete that was a sort of personal attack on him :o) and yes, I am still kind of annoyed about it all :o).

As for Hush, I figured out long ago that this front of a college kid is all wayy phoney; she is far too stable, mild-mannered and Brad-proof.  My money is on her being a grey haired poetically talented spinster with an old cat call Tabby on her tweed covered lap, or some-such ......lol.  

Legion
Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54

21 posted 2003-09-10 07:18 PM


Rob,

I feel a re-enactment of melt coming on.

I’m still trying to tie string to motherboards btw.

The Radrook reference will be lost on most people and in all probability even those who know what occurred will have their own version of events which no doubt won’t be the same as yours and mine.

It’s good to see you around again though, it’s only been about four usernames but it seems somehow longer.

Craig

Robtm1965
Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263

22 posted 2003-09-11 05:04 AM


Craig

Legion suits you ~grin~

It's not choice that kept me offline, rather two house moves and a big dose of reality.  It's still busy, but that ain't gonna stop me wielding a big wooden spoon :o).

Anyway no time now.  Hope things are better for you though.

Take care.

R


hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
23 posted 2003-09-12 10:16 AM


Rob, you found me out... heh heh. 'Cept the cat is two cats, named Little Vicious (it's a black cat and my boyfriend has a love affair with the Sex Pistols) and Junior (because we couldn't come up with anything lse to call ehr except "cat junior" or "other cat"... lol).
warmhrt
Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563

24 posted 2003-09-12 11:06 AM


I don't want to cause any animosity, but I've noticed this since I've been here...
there seems to be a bit of a "Good Ole Boy's" club type of thing that goes on in here, and, sometimes, it is annoying.

Kris

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu

Robtm1965
Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263

25 posted 2003-09-12 12:15 PM


Hush

Black cat! Broomstick? B/f into Sid Vicious! - should we start worrying?

And shame on you, an accomplished poet unable to think up a cats name.  Er... umm.. how about "whiskers"?

Warmhrt

Long time friends meeting in an alien environment. Annoying!?  

Tough.

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
26 posted 2003-09-12 01:47 PM


Kris:

You can't spend considerable time participating in this forum without forming some friendships.  I think of you as one of those good ol' girls.   What's wrong with that?

Regarding the original question (the topic of this post), I think people commenting here need to devote more time to their responses.  This forum is as much about discussion as it is about commenting.

Besides, when life affords me a small window, I enjoy reading poems written with some effort and discussing what I've read with others here.  In my opinion, btw, "nice poem" and "good job" do little to prompt discussion.

Jim

Always Lisa
Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133

27 posted 2003-09-12 02:51 PM


>And Brad put his finger on it in his last reply - a discussion started - a member >left.  Fine.  She shouldn’t have been here in the first place with a congenital >deficiency in her ability to debate like that.

You have no idea of my ability to debate based on one thread nor do you have any right to say where I should not be (meaning, in this open to all forum of all skill levels) If you trip, then am I to assume you don't have the ability to walk correctly? A deficiency? Perhaps you should stay out of the street... Don't walk at all. If you stutter, then am I to assume that you have nothing of worth to say? A deficiency? Maybe you shouldn't talk at all. Perhaps I'm ugly... Deficient in looks but to whom? I think that I look cute today but you might not. Let's pass out the paper bags.

I brought up one contributing factor for my absence in offerings here. Contributing factor being the key word but there are many factors attached to that. Some were clearly stated by others here.

I'm no stranger to poetic debate. Sometimes my views get me cut at the knees (and rightfully so) sometimes I cut back and come out looking pretty goosh dang good. Is there room for both. There sure is because I am human. In the end, I have very little history here in these parts; with my own set of reasons for not caring to add to the view displayed here.

The label you have giving to me; remember me the next time your trip.

Lastly why did I come back? Well, besides reading one of you and this thread, I was hoping that one of those flashing ads at the top of this forum would say that I won a crockpot or something. Sigh* No such luck.

Regards,
Lisa


Legion
Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54

28 posted 2003-09-12 02:57 PM



quote:
I don't want to cause any animosity, but I've noticed this since I've been here...
there seems to be a bit of a "Good Ole Boy's" club type of thing that goes on in here, and, sometimes, it is annoying.


Kris,

Could you explain why you think that and what aspects of this “Good Ole Boy’s” club are so annoying?

I think you’re probably right by the way, at least in part but I’m a little concerned that your description infers the type of favouritism associated with the term “clique” which I just don’t see.

There’s always the chance of course that I’m included as one of the “Good Ole Boy’s” and my perception of what’s happening is clouded by those proverbial rose tinted spectacles we all wear from time to time.

Robtm1965
Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263

29 posted 2003-09-12 03:10 PM


Jim

Unqualified "here here!" :o)

Lisa

Oops I thought you'd gone!  I apologise for what obviously looks like a slight on you personally.  It was not really meant to be such.  Your thread was a handy example of what can happen and really shouldn't, and perhaps (thinking you'd gone for good) on reflection I shouldn't have used it so directly.

Nevertheless, now I've got your attention I did wonder why you appeared to spoil what was shaping into a promising debate by getting into a huff which arose, so far as I can see, from your personal dislike (maybe too strong?) of someone?  

All I'm doing is pleading for mature rational debate and discussion without hissy fits, teen type tantrums and multiple flounces.  Is that too much to ask?

R

PS I agree, those adverts are sooooo annoying, almost as annoying as old boys together clubs in fact... lol.  DO something Ron or I will flounce myself - so there ... lol

Robtm1965
Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263

30 posted 2003-09-12 03:15 PM


Craig

~does the special handshake~

You one of them/us! ~shock~

temperamentally certainly a "boy"

definitely "ole" ... lol

"Good"? ... hummm

:o)

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
31 posted 2003-09-12 07:45 PM


quote:
Lastly why did I come back? Well, besides reading one of you and this thread, I was hoping that one of those flashing ads at the top of this forum would say that I won a crockpot or something. Sigh* No such luck.


Ah, those ads do have a use after all. They made Lisa come back.



warmhrt
Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563

32 posted 2003-09-12 09:35 PM


"I think you’re probably right by the way, at least in part but I’m a little concerned that your description infers the type of favouritism associated with the term “clique”.....

You said it, I didn't.......
Well, I did bring it up, and I am not talking about friends meeting...I'm talking about how the forum runs.

Kris  

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu

[This message has been edited by warmhrt (09-12-2003 09:38 PM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
33 posted 2003-09-12 09:58 PM


Well, how do you think it should be 'run'?
warmhrt
Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563

34 posted 2003-09-13 01:24 PM


Now I am sorry I brought this up. I am but one voice, and one, or two or three, would never change such ingrained behavior.

You could say that on some level this forum is somewhat like a microcosm of the western world. Some time ago, in a place where I worked, I tried to tackle the "good ole boys". I implemented some change, but I'm sure that to this day they are operating as usual, and I paid a very, very dear price.

I wish to withdraw my statements concerning this subject.

Kris

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
35 posted 2003-09-13 01:37 PM


A simple question is answered like that?

Young lady, do you not remember where I live? The non-western world is no place for you. You would be laughed at here. I ask you a question. How do we make it better?

I live in Korea.

warmhrt
Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563

36 posted 2003-09-13 09:59 PM


I know you do, Brad, but you were raised here, right?

Laugh if you want to, but I still wish to with draw my statements...pretend I never said anything.

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu


[This message has been edited by warmhrt (09-13-2003 10:04 PM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
37 posted 2003-09-13 11:03 PM


Nuts!!!
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
38 posted 2003-09-19 10:40 AM


Bumped this one too.
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

39 posted 2003-09-19 09:49 PM


Well...this almost makes me want to end my self-imposed PIP hiatus...almost.

'the line between a personal attack and an attack on a person’s writing has become too porous in recent years in this forum'

I'm quoting someone and now I can't remember who...my apologies.

Awhile ago - well over a year - a person started critiquing in Open. He indiscriminately critiqued poems and was railroaded for it. Out and out, sometimes vicious, attacks from members.
He left.

In that case, there was a blurred line between personal attack and critique. For those who had no wish for critique, and had had no experience in receiving one, his words were most definitely personal attacks.

What I found personally amusing is that members were actually attacking this man for attacking them - at least perceptually.

Simply, that blurred line exists. This is a place where people utilise poetry as a means of social connection. I've come to accept that that is the main thrust behind this site. I don't believe that will change. Arguably - why should it? A lot of people are happy here. Hell, it even changes people's lives. We have the proof that it's difficult to prevent that from bleeding across into other forums.

Even the lofty and removed CA forum. (Said lightly).

This thread is proof to me that those who take critiquing seriously are present in CA. And that's good. Here you all are. Carry on as you are I say. Critique - give the forum what it needs.

And perhaps accept that you are - and here is a truly loaded statement - a minority.

I'm going again, see you in a few months I suppose.

K

Robtm1965
Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263

40 posted 2003-09-20 10:10 AM


lol .. well! Someone silly or brave enough to critique Open forum poetry I would like to meet; or maybe I wouldn't.  The man should have stuck to critiquing in lofty CA then all would have been fine .  
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
41 posted 2003-09-20 11:32 AM


Good to hear from you K


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