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Why does this work?
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Why does this work? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Why does this poem work, or doesn’t it? http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178638 Also Altarwise by Owl-Light is often held up as an example of an unfathomable poem, does anyone fancy taking a shot at interpreting the meaning of the first stanza? |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Grinch, this is a hasty read, but unfortunately all the time I had. I must admit I was intrigued. Maybe I'll even get a little close to what old Dylan was thinking. quote: Looks like he's praying - furies are accusers ... in other words, his conscience won't stop pursuing him - and he can't run anymore. quote: Abaddon is the demon of the abyss, isn't he? "Cracked from Adam" ... perhaps an allusion to the Fall. quote: Wow. How many symbols of death can you cram into a few lines? Not sure about the "dog among the fairies", but the image I get isn't a pleasant one for the fairies. The mandrake is poisonous and "penny-eyed," the dead had the pocket change necessary to pay the the boatman, Charon. And it doesn't seem to stop there. quote: These are a little tougher. The first line of the second stanza gives us a hint ... "Death is all metaphors ..." You could probably say "That night of time under the Christward shelter" is referring to eternal rest in the presence of Christ. quote: And finally it looks like we get to the start of the prayer. Apparently the gentleman is dying. Sharing his bed with Capricorn and Cancer ... probably means he is a sailor (familiar with the constellations) and perhaps that he is dying of the disease cancer. All I have time to do for now. Interesting post. Poem works for me, after some effort. It's one of those things where if you don't take the time to dig into the material, you don't realize how rich it is. Great stuff, really. I imagine more than one Master's thesis was spend trying to interpret some of Thomas. Jim |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I believe Yvor Winters took a shot at the whole poem, image by image, line by line. You'd probably have to check out a Winters bibliography to dig out the publication details. I did read the essay long ago. It is simultaneously a brilliant success and a dismal failure. In terms of sound, the poem is a lot of fun. As I recall, Thomas always said he meant the poem literally. The poem, which is one solid string of compressed symbols is about as literal as a Chopin Nocturn. There is no room for denotation in the text at all. Thomas had an appalling weakness "pour epater les bourgoisie." (I haven't mastered accents on this system yet, or italics) At least in part with this poem, we bourgoisie have shown an alarming attraction to show how we can go about sticking it to ourselves. My opinion. BobK. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Um, okay. I want to give it a shot. Next time, talk to me first, okay? I mean e-mail me. CA is still an original poem first thing. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Brad, maybe I don’t see what you mean ? What is the difference in your post on ” what makes poetry work “ than Grinch’s ? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Go through me first. If not, I start pushing the moderator button. Is that clear? |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Brad, it could not be any clearer. Thank you, |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Not really, can you explain the new rules Brad I’m a little confused. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I just want to manage it better. Keep it focused. Right now, we have Service, Wordsworth, Longfellow, and Thomas. Too many at once. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’m still confused. I can understand trying to mange it but what exactly is the ‘it’? What are you trying to achieve and how do you see it working? If I’m confused some of the newer members must be tearing their hair out, you post a couple of classic poems. Then Chop posts one then I post one and suddenly we’re faced with the cryptic hand of Mod threatening doom and destruction at the push of a button. Off the top of my head I’ve a few questions. How frequently can we post or propose a post? Are you going to decide what gets posted and when? Do we forward proposed links to you? What’s the scheduling process, is it first come fist served in a queuing system? How are you going to disseminate the rules to new and existing members? What happens if the rules get broken? What are the rules? [This message has been edited by Grinch (01-16-2008 04:50 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: You can propose as much as you want. You can't post it without permission. There's no need to change the rules. Those are the rules. Or, technically, you're not supposed to this at all. quote: Yes. quote: Yes. quote: No, it's at my whim. I have a plan. quote: Not going to. The rules haven't changed. quote: I take it off the board. That's it. quote: The same as before. You are now officially on parole.  |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Aww, go ahead an put him on Double Secret Probation |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks so much for starting this thread, Grinch. I love Dylan’s poems but some, like this one, are very difficult to understand so I sort of skipped over them. Your thread is just the spark I needed to get me going on a little research that should, hopefully, make them more accessible, Found a couple of articles about this particular poem online. Not sure how credible they are, but you might give them a read and see what you think. http://www.welshpedia.co.uk/literature/redowl.shtml http://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/489/1/Wourm_Dante.pdf I also ordered a copy of “The Religious Sonnets of Dylan Thomas” by H. H. Kleinman, Seemed like a good place to start and one that it might shed some light on this poem. You’re welcome to borrow it when I’ve finished, if you’d like. I think this poem "works" because even if you don't quite understand all of it you can enjoy it simply because of the richness and beauty of the language. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Two quick impressions: 1. It is a quest. 2. It reads like part of the American tradition (Eliot, of course, but also Pynchon) and not simply because we have 'two-gunned Gabriel'.  Sorry, added impression: Cormac McCarthy, especially "Blood Meridian". Still American (or if you want, the American tradition after 1950 seems to have stolen a lot from this poem). |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
This is from Astrology.com: quote: Now, I don't want anyone to see this as the key to the poem, but it's interesting that the 'gentlemen' lies with both. Do we see this as an abomination? Do we see this as the Trinity or perhaps the poem is using trinity or multiple trinities to make a point? As an aside: If you've been reading in the Alley today, one might think that Ron would jump in at this point and say, "Yes." |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Thomas answers you in SII: quote: ----------------------- quote: from Wikipedia: quote: |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I feel so silly. I strained my brain trying to understand "Subjugating the Beast and the Angel: Suggestions of Dante’s Inferno in ‘Altarwise by owl-light", even printed it out so I could read it again on my lunch hour and now I find out all I really had to do was check out Astrology.com |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
some interesting points in this book starting on page 15: http://books.google.com/books?id=9cvNjSGLtkkC&printsec=frontcover#PPR1,M1 |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Wourme helps a lot, but I'm not sure I buy the dual 'I' thesis. Nor am I convinced that it is a retelling of 'Inferno'with Thomas as Virgil (that creates its own problems). The 'I' is still a problem. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Fascinating, isn’t it, to read all the conflicting opinions on just one poem. This article gives a slightly different perspective - social and political influences as well as the artistic: http://www.dylanthomasboathouse.com/download/essay5.pdf |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
I printed them our and read the whole thing and again and again. I have not got a clue yet. Only the first word is a name of a Ship and halfway could mean the ocean. who knows. But Grinch does, does write like him. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Starting at about page 100: http://books.google.com/books?id=DV9_6DAOSscC&printsec=frontcover#PPA93,M1 |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Jen, If DT painted it might look like this: http://www.aiwaz.net/panopticon/garden-of-earthly-delights/gi540c85 If you click on the individual panels you can search for some of the characters - the Owl and the man-egg are easy to spot. Personally I think Bosch is another untamed anser, but I feel DT would have been tickled by the hunt. PS No, that isn't a spelling mistake. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I'm sure it would, it is, he would be and it isn't. I was worried you wouldn't come back and am so pleased that you have and even posted a new one. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Jen, Sorry I was busy trying to work out the best way to reply, but I have been following the thread. So which interpretation is the right one? I like to believe it’s all and none, Thomas had a talent for using words and phrases that conjured multiple images and meanings. In most of his poems he ensured that at least one of them shone through. This poem I believe is different, I think Thomas wanted to hide the original intent under multiple layers of possibility and for two very good reasons. The first is that Thomas wanted to create a paradox - a poem that was so obscure it allowed every readers interpretation to be correct. Thomas didn’t write one poem - he wrote multiple poems using words that when mixed with an individuals life experience and knowledge produced sparks of recognition and thought, his poems should contain hyperlinks they contain so many references. And share my bed with Capricorn and Cancer Astrology? Opposites? Two women? Plenty and pain? Geographic symbols 23.5% n 23.5% s? I think that the second reason is that Thomas couldn’t allow his poem to give up his original intent, which, if I read it right, started as a very private joke shared perhaps only with Edith Sitwell. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I think the Bosch adds a lot as well (it also fits with his comment that he meant the poem literally.) He was writing about or with a painting or paintings as well as Dante, as well as Anatole France. Still, I am bothered by a couple of points: quote: and quote: You may well be right that it is a joke, but I'm still stuck with the feeling that the obscurity (of syntax as well as allusion) isn't Dylan just being Dylan, it is also because the poem actually poses a controversial view of religion. At this point, however, it is still nothing more than a hunch. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks, Grinch, for the fascinating topic. I've really enjoyed reading this thread and doing research on the topic. I've learned so much in the last week not only about Dylan but also about language, poetics, criticism and interpretation. Since it was you who inspired me to really dig into the topic, I'm sure you wouldn't mind coughing up a few pounds to help pay for all the books I put on my Mastercharge. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Jen, You could have borrowed mine, I’ve shelves of books on DT, unfortunately none of them explain the poem. Will you take my interpretation of the first sonnet as full payment? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
That would be lovely! And when you have time could you give me a few book recommends? I did the other Thomas guy from the misty land last summer/fall and would love to spend the next year or two reading Dylan. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I would honestly steer clear of the explication\interpretation books, they raise some interesting points but they’re all third hand opinions and raise more questions than answers. Besides he didn’t write for them, he wrote for you, and you can interpret them at least as well as they can if not better. I’d have 5 items on my desert island: Dylan Thomas: The Biography by Paul Ferris Get this to get a feel of DT Dylan Thomas: The Collected Letters This to peek a little more inside Dylan Thomas Reading His Poetry: Complete & Unabridged This is essential Collected Poems, 1934-53 (Everyman) Good book of his poetry to read along while listening to him I can’t make my mind up on the fifth, I’m wavering somewhere between Jennifer Love Hewitt and Cote De Pablo, which isn’t a bad place to waver. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I'm sure Dylan would be pleased with either on the fifth. I'm really looking forward to reading your interpretation of the first Sonnet. I've heard Dylan reading several. Was interesting to find out his voice sounded exactly like it did in my mind when I read his poems. Honestly, and don't be offended, but it's not a voice I care for very much, RS was more to my liking. But I love reading Dylan's poems now that I've learned to fine tune my mental audio and make him sound a bit on the Irish side. Thanks so much for the recommends. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
OK, now I’ve dropped myself in it I better work out how to approach this and make something up, and quick! So what do I know? Well I know it’s a sonnet, that means it’s complete in it’s own right - it stands as a poem regardless of the additional sonnets. That tells me that the chances are that Thomas wove the intent, or at least the seed of it into this sonnet. I also know DT wrote multiple meanings into his poems, hyperlinks into possibilities kicked off by keywords or phrases, so what are the keywords? Altar wise Owl-light Halfway house Graveward Furies Abaddon Hangnail Dog among the fairies Atlas eater Mandrake Penny-eyed Wounds Old cock Heavens egg Salvage Christ ward shelter Capricorn Cancer There are others but these will do for starters, now all I have to do is to find the one thing that connects them, to do that I have to find the one keyword that has the least possible meanings or to be more precise the most likely meaning of one word\phrase. Luckily I read a lot of DT and throughout his work he has used one word consistently as a metaphor for “words, writing or poems” that word is “wounds.” So maybe the penny-eyed gentleman is a man of words. So are words the key? It doesn’t look like it to me. Oh well, I’ll try another, maybe if I go for one in the same line I might get somewhere- penny-eyed - this seems a fairly straightforward metaphor for death, or approaching death or maybe a yearning for death. Then approaching death, the gentleman of words. That could fit but could penny-eyed mean something else? Something literal? seeking wealth, the gentleman of words A writer hoping or looking to make money? Now all I have to do is try to fit that to the lines around it. Bit out the mandrake with to-morrow’s scream: This is a little easier than it seems, mandrake and screams are part of the same legend. The mandrake is a root that supposedly screams when it’s unearthed and the screams kill any mortal fool enough to dig one up. So the scream leads to death, it’s a consequence of unearthing the mandrake. Whoever bit it out knew full well the consequence but was willing to pay the cost when he had to - “to-morrow’s scream” tells me the payment is deferred. He grabbed his chance, knowing he’d have to pay: seeking wealth, the gentleman of words, Now I have to work out what the line below means: Old cock from nowheres and the heaven’s egg, Well it’s an additional description of the man of words I know that much, Dylan often painted something with two brushes, the first to put down an undercoat, the rest to add a finishing coat. Old cock has sexual overtones, but that doesn’t fit too well with my brave man of words so lets go for the obvious. The gentleman is strutting, but he’s come from nowhere. Yet it isn’t nowhere it’s “nowheres” - he literally hasn’t come from lots of nowhere places - or to be more precise he’s come from none of the ’somewhere’ places. The strutting man from the wrong place And the heaven’s egg? I think Thomas could have substituted ‘heaven’ with ‘golden’ if he wasn’t intent on sprinkling religious themes about the place to allow other interpretations. Heavens egg is a gift, a bestowed gift, a prophesized gift but this gift is prophesized by someone else so other people are saying our gentleman is the heaven’s egg. He grabbed his chance, knowing he’d have to pay: seeking wealth, the gentleman of words, The strutting man from the wrong place with the claimed gift Any of this make any sense? I’m not surprised, this is MY interpretation., it probably isn‘t right but it‘s definitely not wrong either. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Well I might not be right but I’m having fun so here I go again. What have I got so far? He grabbed his chance, knowing he’d have to pay: seeking wealth, the gentleman of words, The strutting man from the wrong place with the claimed gift I’ve now got a reference to compare with some of the other lines and the very beginning is apparently a very good place to start so here goes nothing. altar wise I already have a writer from the wrong place and altar wise suggests, at least to me, that this is another reference to my brave writers non-literary beginnings. Thomas could be using the word to depict a direction or a movement by evoking ‘clockwise‘. He’s mixed it with a whiff of wrongness by also suggesting ‘otherwise’ but he’s added altar, another word with religious connotations which also suggests a movement away from the norm. Thomas is saying my writer was wise in a different way. Owl-light This is darkness but a darkness that my hero is able to see in - just as the owl does - he sees despite the darkness. Half-way house One foot in the world he was born in and one foot in the world he finds himself in. A provincial writer, with gifted sight, straddles two worlds Gentleman This has to be put in context, imagine the scene our writer from nowhere lying drunk on the floor of a high class hotel bar, the manager approaches the mans friends and asks “would the gentleman be requiring a room”. That’s the tone that should be used, it’s both polite and a rebuke, it’s two opposites together. Graveward This could be death, but I don’t think it is, I see it as a man viewing something in a grave way. The thing he’s considering with such gravity is his furies, those that see him as the man from nowhere - his critics. Abaddon If you say this to almost anyone from England or Wales in this context: He’s Abaddon They’ll hear this “he’s a bad un” meaning he’s no good or of questionable character and that’s what I believe Thomas may have been relying on. A hangnail is an unwanted pain Cracked from Adam is a flawed man His fork is Adam’s loins A dog among the fairies - now we can name the writer thanks to this ‘portrait of the artist as a young dog’ - the writer is DT himself. The fairies are poets, not very flattering, but if we insist on wearing frilly shirts and dancing through daffodils we’re bound to attract derogatory names questioning our leanings towards femininity. The atlas-eater, is a reference to Dylan’s avid book consumption, a jaw for news harks back to his first job as a journalist on a local paper. Anyone convinced yet? Nor me. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Actually, almost so don't stop now. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
You’re a glutton for punishment Jen, everyone else yawned and left ages ago. The final six lines: With bones unbuttoned Thomas is open to attack, he’s out there unprotected and open to ridicule, they can cut him to the bone and he’s got no defence. The half-way winds. Winds can be both warm and chilly and he feels both being half-way between worlds but here’s where the turn comes. Thomas accepts the position and is re-born coming through the storm of criticism recognising he has at least some support - one leg- he has at least a leg to stand on - his skill as a writer and his supporters! Scraped at my cradle Thomas scraped at his cradle, he drew on his life, the thing that defined him, and saw that writing easily compensated his questioned pedigree, the walking word is conformation that his writing works, it moves people. Christward shelter is simply the sky . The final couplet sees Thomas resigned to his lot. He is the long worlds gentleman (the politely abused type of gentleman) and shares the bed he’s made and sleeps in with Capricorn and Cancer - two opposites - those that like his work and the dissenters who claim he’s a poet not a Poet. The long world? The longest way around the world is to travel the equator which just happens to sit exactly between the tropics of Capricorn and Cancer. I think DT chose the sonnet form to prove his skill to the dissenters, incidentally I think it was the same drive to show his skill with classical forms that produced probably the finest villanelle ever written. Also, if I were sticking my neck out, I’d say the additional sonnets that make up Altarwise were exactly that - added at a later time- to emphasis, drive home or prove his ability to write form poetry but written in a way to offer a raised digit to the critics of his style at the same time. Well that’s one interpretation for what it’s worth, which probably isn’t much knowing the source. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I'm very impressed, Grinch. Your interpretation makes more sense to me than anything I've read so far. I think, as you said, the key is the two brush thing. Focus on the undercoat or the finishing coat exclusively and you're bound to go astray. Thanks so much for taking time to go over this in detail. You've made a Dylan fan out of me for sure. |
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