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Critical Analysis #2
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| Critical Analysis #2 |
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the spoils |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738
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Here we are and we are here. I take the stick and dig a smile. I hand the cross of fire to you-- and watch you dig a deeper frown. No homilies no platitudes just the two of us in tune watching fire spit the runes of a pine cone that I tossed just because I like the sparks and the way woodflower wilts and sighs like rotting flesh let loose - rancid in denial...truth is waiting at the podium in silent dignity, she takes the cloth of blue flame as her mate strength around her shoulder bound she testifies: "Now I know hate." She placed the bead on her forehead-- the mark of widowed maidenhead: "namaste" prayer hands in nod sacred as she walked the way of the life that led her here like the flames that lick the night and stay as traces of the knife burning maps of humankind upon our eyes and to the sky as we look across the fire before we look away - before-- we recognize our selves and stay... wishing dark sparks of a pyre beating loyal fists to life upon the armor of our chests. We hear murmers of "The Quest" we look away when our eyes test truth of what a widow said as we burn her husband's head and a pine cone sparked. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Sati -- with a twist? More later. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Gertrude Stein immediately comes to mind, "There is no there there." Can you almost here the groans already? "Oh, it's going to be one of those kind of poems -- what's the next one on the list?" Or perhaps the reaction might be something like, "Oh how cute, she's playing around with three different words and saying the same thing twice. Let's jump to the next line." But say we don't jump to the next line or the next poem, is there anything of interest in this one line? I think so. "Here we are" -- We use this phrasing when we want to show, not that we are here, but that we have finally reached our destination, it's the phrase your mother uses when we get to grandmother's house after interminable repetitions of "Are we there yet." It's also used when we're looking for something and finally find it. Where are my keys? Not here, not here, oh, here we are -- under the cushion. "We are here", on the other hand, is a simple declarative and while it might be used in the grandma's house scene -- with added stress placed on here, "We're HERE!" it can't be used in the second scene at all. 'We are here' might also be used, say, when looking at a map, pointing, 'we are here.' And so we have several different meanings attached to the same words as long as they are switched around a bit. But if you put the two together, is there anything we can say without, say, arguing that the two 'here's' are referring to two different place (geographically, metaphorically, drug induced, or whatever)? As far as I can tell, the rest of the poem only takes place in one location so I'm inclined to believe that both 'here's refer to the same place. "Here we are and we are here." Well, it seems to me that the speaker is going for a duel reaction here. The first clause creates the idea of culmination, climax, perhaps even relief that the work is over. Immediately following, however, is the sense of disappointment, a belief that the work is not finished but just begun. Think of that last scene in 'Finding Nemo' where the aquarium fish finally make it into the ocean but are still stuck in the plastic bags and the big guy says, "Now what?" There are no doubt other ways to read this line, but I'm going to stick with that one. Why? Because this reading, I think, fits into the rest of the poem rather well. It's a prologue for the whole thing. But I bet most readers got that without my longwinded comment.  Hey, I had some free time on my hands. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
That's pretty good Brad. Actually I was one of those readers who naively forged ahead. Stephen |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: The first sentence, presumably, is to counterpoint the seriousness of the event. I admit I don't get 'cross of fire' -- at first, I thought it was some kind of shovel but KKK images kept flowing through me head, but then I though it must be some kind of an amulet -- on a necklace or something -- and it signifies the transference of power or duty. I'm still not sure -- this is usually a sign for me to spend, I don't know, a good ten or fifteen minutes on the internet to see if there's some symbolism that I'm missing here. I haven't done it yet, but since it's still bugging me, I suspect I'll start pushing those buttons soon enough. Still, we have 'crosses to bear' and fire is often considered a purifying agent so I suppose, without doing any homework, one can see the gist of what's going on here. On the other hand, and to some extent this intrigues me more, is the use of the smile and the frown (the drama comedy/tragedy mask immediately comes to mind). We have two curves that are opposites. What's interesting to me is that if you see these two placed either parallel or opposing each other, they form a kind of symbol. Again, I haven't done my homework (yet), and so don't have any idea what they might mean, what that might mean. On the other hand, if I remember my "DaVinci Code" correctly, this kind of symbolism is very important to early types of religious/spiritual groups and they represent male/female. Knowing Karen, I'm certainly inclined to think in that direction. Of course, the symbols in the Code were not curves but angles, right? quote: Personally, I think this sudden change in style works very well. As my mind is working on crosses of fire, tragi-comedy masks, and why Dan Brown is not a very good writer, she hits me over the head (with a shovel?) and says, "Hey, boy, stop playing around, this is serious." Anyway, that's how it worked for me. Since Stephen actually read my last post, I'll add something here: Did all of this come on a first reading? No, not all of it, only some of it. Poetry is meant to be read more than once (there's a reason they tend to be short) and so this is really the accumulation of several readings. I suppose some people get really annoyed by the whole idea of multiple reading and, well, multiple 'readings', but that really is one fun part of reading this stuff. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: On the face of it, this seems like a clear image: Two people watch a pine cone thrown in a fire. The pine cone agitates the fire and throws out 'runes' -- either actual sounds of a chant or spell or as the pine cone breaks down signs, a kind of writing, to be interpreted. I suspect both. The tricky part is the combination of nonchalance and significance. "just because I like the sparks/and the way the woodflower wilts" implies a kind of unconcern. Also, I tried to look up woodflower but there is no such designation -- at least in the dictionary I used. Fair enough, a pine cone on fire kind of looks like a flower so I'll take it as that. But then she brings in "and sighs like rotting flesh let loose". I do not know if a burning pine cone gives off a sound like a sigh but the rotting flesh give us a bit more of the signs to be interpreted. A corpse, I'm pretty sure, does give off a kind of 'whoosh' sound when opened. At some point, at least for the speaker, the connection has been made. I have the same problem with 'rancid' -- does a pine cone give off a rank odor when burned? I'm not sure. What seems clear, however, is that somehow this image for the speaker has shifted to that of a corpse. And then we have a shift: "in denial . . . truth" Is this a comment on the preceding image? Is this a transition to the next part of the poem? Is it pointing out that there is truth in denial (don't get me start on that one)? Or all of the above? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
You're doing so well with this, I almost hate to interject, but I did have a lot of fun with imagery and wordplay here. woodflower...well, you got that one, so you must have burned a few pinecones in your time (mesmerizing, aren't they? Like watching dead roses in resurrection wilt) (There's also an old song too--The Wild Wood Flower, but that's just me having fun again) in denial...truth? shrug. I suppose it depends on how much the man doth protest? (grinning again) a woman's husband's head is burnt. (Do we really need Freud for this'n?  )As for the source of any detail regarding the particulars of meat, flesh, and hair being roasted, if you are questioning the accuracy of my sources, I *ahem* will now attest that I have attended many cochon de lait, not to mention other festivities involving meat on a spit.  And pinecones make noises too. And yes, both contain oil that smells rancid as it warms before it burns. Why, next, you are going to tell me my punctuation sucks! *cracking up*  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Now, now, don't go away mad, Brad. I'm actually gratified at the amount of time you spent on this for me. I know I mucked up the punctuation--I honestly hadn't given it a second thought. I happen to love using punctuation to my advantage too, so if you (or anyone else) would feel inclined to do so, show me how you'd do it. And don't ask why I double-spaced, because I don't have a good answer other than I wanted it read slowly. And that's not a good enough answer. But I didn't mean to ruin your fun, Brad. I'm sorry. *sheepish here* It's okay by me if anybody wants to tear this up--I did put a lot of thought into the wordplay and images, but it was just a bit of fun for me. It ain't exactly my Taj Mahal. *laughing* I mean, I don't hate it, but I don't love it either.  |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
God, I just love the hell out of this, K! Criticism? Nope |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Karen, I'm not done yet. Yes, you mucked up the punctuation. Oh, and why did you double space everything? (Hoping she doesn't have a shotgun near the computer.) |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
It's a .38 snub. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Note to self: must finish this, must finish this But not now. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Karen! My only real question is "why the swith to rhymeY You kind of ease into it, and then hit it hard. I presume this is on purpose. I just don't understand the purpose. It's not bad rhyme. It just seems...odd. Why do you denigrate your own poetry? Why not just accept the fact that you write well, and sometimes your work is extraordinary? Oh, everybody edits themselves all the time and is unsure whether they have hit the mark. At a certain point, that becomes of secondary import. IMAO, ePoetry is a lot of fun and is the only way most poetry is every going to be seen. Still, there is a certain amount of acknowledgement from the "world" in seeing one's poems in print. So it's time to select, collate, and submit again. Maybe this is old fashioned thinking. A well received book of poetry, say something from the "Yale Series of Younger Poets," might reach 1,000 people tops, and a chapbook sale of 100 copies is a breakthrough. So maybe a homepage e-thing is the answer in terms of exposure, because, I think, poets write to communicate with other people, and home pages tend to get more views just by dumb luck than pamphlets on a very few bookstore shelves. For you, I think it's time to stop "practicing" and open up a practice. I would say the same to Brad, Grinch, Allicat, Moonbeam, Jennifer Maxwell, Bobby in Open, and Regina. I'm not putting down anybody else, and certainly haven't read everything and everybody in PiP, but there's a lot of good stuff in few forums I have time to read. Odd thought: Maybe PiP could create a section of e-thologies which contain a small body of a poet's work. The trick, then, would be to create an attractive internet heading to draw attention to the work and the site. Or maybe there's enough traffic already. Just ramblin. Hope the creek ain't rising at your house, and the fires don't reach my house. Best, Jim |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: This is one of the crucial moments in the poem, but I'm going to leave it and move through the rest. If people get interested in this one again, I'll bring it up again. There is a scene change here: quote: 'she' is 'truth' here. She waits at the podium in silent dignity: a lecturer, a priest, a politician, a witness. Aha, a witness: quote: I do wonder if 'over' (a sari is draped over one shoulder) might be better here. But the image, if not completely clear, clearly implies a ritual fire and burning. Before the next line, I know where you're going: quote: And it's clinched here. Honestly, I don't know enough about the ritual to argue the accuracy hear, but I'm not sure how important that is at this point. Even if it's not, the image is clear: A woman who joins her dead husband in cremation. quote: A transition point. The walk to the altar (is that the right word? Is pyre right?) of cremation, a final walk and yet, at the same time, the walk through life that led her to this moment. But this image is a vision, a vision in the previous fire, the one with pine cones and stuff: quote: because the main idea, as I see it, is the recognition of hatred as hate, not as union. Union is the cause of hate. It is the bind that helps us travel to the path to hate. This is not the hate of racism, it is not a passive emotion, present or just under the surface. It manifests itself in ritual. quote: A scream, a moment, a rebellion. quote: And yet at the end, there is a turning away from ritual, from screaming, from 'sisterhood', from comparison, from all the things that I was trying to deny earlier -- it looks-like-this-but-not-really kind of feeling. It was almost as if my earlier reading mimics the very process that the speaker is going through. Yes, life leads to these moments, we walk the path, we find ourselves in similar positions, but the answer, I think, is not a turn to another path, another road, another cause. It is to turn away from the comparison itself. Oh, I liked the poem. PS I may change my mind tomorrow. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
I shall not be thought as personal attack here. But Truly, SB is a lady. she rarely writes little feminine tune and light romance. Her unsaid feelings are much more than what she has wrote down. Her poems has certain depth that I am not able to reach unless she tells her thought herself, which is too much for a poet to say. "Here we are and we are here" Sir Brad, I read this as a impatient, nonchalant, carefree tone to the rest of her poem as to say "yes, I wrote it done but I do not really care what has happened"..or simply hiding a true strong emotion behind those casual words. I have to say I have to read several times to get some understanding of your poems and also with the help of other people's comments. ====="I hand the cross of fire to you" I read as "I" concentrated my two eyes on "you". I like your poem because I like to read them again again and again. Love Ya dear SB |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you so much TM.  (um, was I really attacked?) Cute, tho. But thank you, that's sweet. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm guessing here but if TM's reference is to me, I wasn't attacking. C'mon, how much time did I spend on this thread (and for all I know, I'm not done.) quote: Well, I was trying to be lighthearted, I suppose, but never confuse that with callousness. I've told you this before, be very careful trying to read through the words to some essential point. Read the words first. A simple point but one that I have to remind myself of all the time. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Brad, be fair! You shall focus on SB's poem not my comment. "you just don't get it." AS You can see, SB sent me a hug! If you prefer read words first but not the meaning first, then you do have enough time. I read them at same time. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
so take THAT, Brad! *cracking up* TM--you are very sweet, but I am very apprecative of the time every one has spent on this poem. I really do like to know how I can make it better. So it's all good, but it's lovely to know you've got my back! Brad, Jim, I'll be back to read your comments now that I am only seeing double. I appreciate you ALL, very much.  |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
"Well, I was trying to be lighthearted, I suppose, but never confuse that with callousness. I've told you this before, be very careful trying to read through the words to some essential point." My dear Sir Brad, To be honest with you, no matter how many times you have told me, the reality is that some words are obviously beyond telling a simple image. I can not lie to myself. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
OK Brad and Dottie: If we're doing Jung-ian meta-meanings and like that, when I read "wood flower," my mind went straight to "Hawaiian Wood Rose," Specifically, good old "Hawaiian Baby," and offer up the following: Seeds of the Argyreia nervosa (Wood Rose, "Hawaiian Baby") were used in sacramental rituals by priests to, ah, talk to sharks, gods, and ancestors. Locals still use them to get stoned. Downside is you will more than likely puke. Upside is the poem will be easier to understand. Consumption of these seeds is illegal, but hey, what'cha gonna do? Purchase/possession isn't. I ain't claimin' to be a shamain -- subtle reference to the site, here. From your friendly fountain of trivial information who lived for a year in Makaha and once got passed a joint at a baby luau from the old one armed bandit himself, Senator Dan Inouye. Sharing from my heart, Jimbeaux [This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (12-01-2007 12:26 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*laughing* Sometimes a wood flower is just a pine cone? (It's still layered, though. )Lawsy, Jimmy-beaux, Jungian? Wait till you see where I went with Brad's! (I can't sleep either.) But thanks lovie, for your time and the tip. |
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