As Witnessed By My Own Device (or: Izzis a sonnet?)

How to Join	Member's Area	Private Library	Search	Sanctuary		Login
Main Forums	Discussion	Tech Talk	Mature Content	Archives	A home without a wall, Our haven without ends, A circle we all call Our Family of Friends!

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

0 posted 2007-08-30 07:44 PM

For whatever reasoning or sport of program so ingrained
malicious or mad vigilance is accurate and more acute
than the bull's eye winked in rent by the deft of archer's aim
an aria of movement tuned into a moment's trace of loose
bough of silent awe of grace bequeathed to what an eye beheld
from behind the foot of paced measurements as scratched in ink
as perfect as the tear that fell from the eye wherein this dwelled:
darkness as eclipsed the moon to correspond in time to blink
as the Sun lobbed His foray as if to mock the Eastern Star
a spear of firestorm in block felled Her quiver in mid-flight;
compelling mankind's warriors to praise the bloody might of Mars
raging muscled fortitude to win the praises back from night.

A testimony to attest as witnessed by my own device:
"Damn the Sun to damn us all for simply, blinking twice."

* * *

Uh Uh Uh...

Not without at least ONE question.

Can punctuation serve as a "beat" or pause, or, whatever one of those awkword words are?

Came back to add, please, feel free to tear into anything I post here.

It's OKAY. I know where I am. *laughing*

(clean up edits--found an extra "s"

)

[This message has been edited by serenity blaze (08-30-2007 08:56 PM).]

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

1 posted 2007-08-30 08:13 PM

Serenity

Can you scan the first three or four lines of your poem, to show us how you yourself are interpreting the meter of your poem?

What are you going for here?

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

2 posted 2007-08-30 08:30 PM

Scan.

Probably not? *wince*

(I was tapping on my desk, I confess.)

And what I am going for is to have the ability to write this kind of stuff in a natural flow. So I did my homework until I thought I was thinking in meter, and wrote this. (I really do find the language of scansion awkward--I wasn't poking fun.)

What I am trying for is to keep my natural rhythms and hopefully a little passion and fire and some of my normal speaking voice (granted, not all of this is that) but that's the bull's eye.

If I think in trochee and templates I feel like I am typing while wearing a girdle.

?

I hate girdles. Now a bustierre...? okay

But is this a sonnet, and is the meter too bad for comment? And should I remove the comma that divides these two:

"simply, blinking"

???

What am I going for here? A better understanding of meter. And punctuation.

And...how to take all of what I learn and incorporate that into my own expression.

Isn't that what everybody's after?

Came back to ask, I had an alternate title--

In Her Majesty's Service

?

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

3 posted 2007-08-30 09:04 PM

I don't recommend trying to write free from meter in some "natural flow" and trying to write in meter at the same time. It overcomplicates it, and seems a contradiction that will just end up reducing the quality of both in the confusion. Why not just go for a specific meter or not?

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

4 posted 2007-08-30 09:09 PM

With all respect, Ess, show me what's wrong with what I've written, k?

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

5 posted 2007-08-31 07:33 AM

quote:
Can punctuation serve as a "beat" or pause, or, whatever one of those awkword words are?

.

No.

moonbeam

Member Elite

since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

6 posted 2007-08-31 07:37 AM

Whoaaaaaa Karen

That's exactly what Ess is trying to do.

Ess can't really help you much more unless you have a go at scanning the poem (or part of it) yourself.  That way we can see whether you are "hearing" the same things we're hearing.

Do you see that?  Not trying to be difficult or rude or anything.  Just trying to help.

So looking at the first line:

For whatever reasoning or sport of program so ingrained

Just taking the word "reasoning".  Say it aloud, and try and hear which syllables you stress.  When I say it I hear:

RE  son  ing    i.e. "RE" is stressed and "son" and "ing" not so much.

"program" is easy for me.  PRO  gram, but I know you over there have weird ways of saying things so it might not be the same for you.

and "ingrained" would be:  in GRAINED.

Now, if you don't want to try and scan the whole thing right now.  Just take a few words like that in the rest of the poem and show us how you "hear" them.  Honestly, that would be a great help in trying to assist you.

All the best.

M

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

7 posted 2007-08-31 11:26 AM

Brad--Dickinson did it.(I'll find the textbook, or is it a guidebook that says it is okay too.)

and Mb, I undestand why he asked me to do it, and I took no offense. Escecially with a word like a malicious (which is like, three syllables in my head, not four) and I'm not sure if the way I say it follows the reasoning here--MA--lish--US...and for the most part.

and shudder

I really, really hated doing just that much, I did.

Nost of the others are basic pronounciations--I used a lot of one syllable words deliberately though.

I need coffee, guys. I really don't see what the trouble is--the majority of my longer syllabled words followed suit with the major emphasis on the first syllalbe (I'm pretty sure, but I really do need coffee.)

But I don't understand why I have to hop through these hoops. If I was dead, it wouldn't stop a discussion of the meter now would it? No one would care if I read in an "accent" in my head. I feel a bit like Eliza Doolittle putting marbles in my mouth as per instructions of Professor Higgins.

Seriously.

I don't want to have to tell others how to read my poem. I don't want to have to stamp an imprint reguarding meaning on it either.

AND WHY AM I JOINING YOU ALL AGAIN IN NOT ADDRESSING THE POEM?

And I took no offense, I'm just wondering why no one will address the poem...?

Now. Coffee. REALLY.

moonbeam

Member Elite

since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

8 posted 2007-08-31 01:38 PM

quote:
But is this a sonnet, and is the meter too bad for comment?
What am I going for here? A better understanding of meter.

But Karen, I thought you were asking about the meter? Wanting help with it?

What I mean to say, is that I wouldn't blame you if you wanted nothing to do with it

, but if you set out to write a sonnet then it helps I guess if you learn how to write iambic pentameter?

Incidentally I'd probably scan malicious, ma LIC ous, which makes your iamb perfect just there.

Don't give up, you're doing ok.

Seriously.

M

ChristianSpeaks
Member

since 2006-05-18

Posts 396
Iowa, USA

9 posted 2007-08-31 03:23 PM

What is it called when you start a line or have a line stressed as such:

"for what EV" - the first 3 syllables of the piece? unstressed unstressed STRESS

Question only - I know nothing about meter.

Dane

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

10 posted 2007-08-31 03:46 PM

It's a good question Dane, and it addresses my concern too.

In my head, I hear "For whatEver"

? *shrug*

I dunno either.

and Moonbeam? I am walking around my house whispering the word "malicious" now. It's still three syllables, but now I'm confused as to which syllable is stressed, but even if this isn't helping my poetry--walking around whispering "malicious" is making people leave me the hell alone!

moonbeam

Member Elite

since 2005-12-24

Posts 2356

11 posted 2007-08-31 04:25 PM

An unstressd unstressed stressed foot is an "anapest" Dane.  But really, I wouldn't get too hung up on names right now.  Just concentrate on trying to "hear" the stressed and unstressed syllables. Once you "get" it it's not hard because it's simply how you speak the language anyway.

When you say "whatever", surely the first WHAT is the stressed syllable, no? The "ever" kinda peters out into two unstressed syllables. (Unless of course you were being sarcastic with someone then you might say "what EV er" I suppose).

"for" is usually unstressed.

So we have:

for WHAT ev er REA son ing or SPORT of PRO gram so in GRAINED

but that's a hard one, and I'd be interested to hear what Ess thinks.

...........

Karen

Seriously, if you want to "hear" stresses, perhaps it would be better if you quit writing whole poems for a moment and just practice simple lines.

the CAT   is CLIMB   ing UP   the TREE

4 iambs.

Have a shot at doing that.

Tail up!

M

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

12 posted 2007-08-31 07:02 PM

The ambiguity in whatever is from secondary stress again.

Here are some helpful points from my favourite book on meter, Attridge's Poetic Rhythm:

"Occasionally words with secondary stress can undergo a shift in stress under rhythmic pressure (this happens in speech as well as in poetry). Many speakers of English would find it normal to say: [the x's are added by me]



  x  /   x  /  x         /   x   / x  x
Sixteen believers  but  sixteen anecdotes

[...]

Some function words, like some words with secondary stress, can shift their stress according to the needs of the rhythm. In the first of the following sentences, "without" is stressed on the second syllable, as is usually the case, but in the second it's possible for the first syllable to take the stress in order to avoid successive stressed syllables:




 x  /   x   /  x    /
A home without a hearth

 x  /  x    /  x    / x
A country without justice

The net effect of these properties of polysyllabic function words is that,
unlike content words, they are extremely flexible, and can be used by poets with a considerable degree of freedom."

When all else fails though, you may still find the standard pronunciation in a dictionary. Dictionary.com indicates that the main stress is on the ev of whatever: whatever.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

13 posted 2007-08-31 07:39 PM

Got it.

I completely screwed up the meter.

Curious though, I put a lot of thought into some layered symbolism--this was inspired by the lunar eclipse near dawn, btw, and there was a reason I put a comma in that last sentence too.

Does anyone address content here? Or is this just about mechanics? Don't read hostility into that--there is none--I just had some fun with the last line, and I alluded to one of the meanings already, but I'm wondering if anyone else got the intent of my wordplay--

"simply, blinking twice."

(and yes, I flat out told some of you the first meaning via e mail, but I am really curious now to see if anyone understood in entirety, why I was emphatic on that comma?)

I realize I've already taken up a great deal of time too--so I will completely understand if I'm asking for more than my fair share of critique.

Thanks, all of you, for your input and advice.

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

14 posted 2007-08-31 09:17 PM

Hi Karen. It's good to see you hanging about in CA again.

"Is this a sonnet?" Well, by the generally accepted definition, no. I realize that some may accuse me of usurping way too much authority with that statement but that generally accepted definition has been around for several hundred years now. All right then, I'll moderate it a bit a say by the generally accepted definition, it is not a very good sonnet.

quote:
Does anyone address content here?

Of course we do, some moreso than others. I suspect, however, that when you present something that appears to be an attempt at a specific form, that form typically takes precedence over the content. And a sonnet is one of the most easily recognizable forms. After all, content is subjective whereas structured poetry adheres to specific rules.

If you want to write a sonnet, you just can't bend those rules very much or you no longer have a sonnet. Its content may well render it an excellent poem but it still is not a sonnet. Bottom line is, if you want a sonnet then write a sonnet following the generally accepted sonnet rules. Once that is done, I can pretty well assure you of content critique. Even though it may be a proper sonnet, its content could well render it a crappy sonnet.

One suggestion for this one is either trim the feet, correct the meter and perfect the rhyme. Another, just as valid suggestion is add a couple of lines to make it three quatrains, make no mention of sonnet and work on content. Either way works fine.

JMHO, of course.

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

15 posted 2007-08-31 09:31 PM

Thank you Pete.

I think I "get" this too--I introduced it as my attempt at a sonnet, so that must be addressed first and foremost.

(I'm just not sure of etiquette or anything, so I thought the content question was worth pursuing.)

So okay, I'll attempt to iron out the wrinkles--or, I'll just beat it on the rocks by the river and make it totally free verse--but either way, I hope to be back with this one.

It's been a great experience too. (Not at all boring!)

Again, I'd like to express my gratitude to you all--so, thanks!

I like what ya'll did with the place.

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

16 posted 2007-09-01 11:56 AM

I suggest simplifying the expression and expressing it in a clearer way. Right now it is just heavy and confusing, especially in such long lines.

A simpler and more compendious approach shall make muchel improvement.

Allysa

Senior Member

since 1999-11-09

Posts 1952
In an upside-down garden

17 posted 2007-09-01 12:18 PM

Malicious is a three syllable word to me. That's all I've got.

Marge Tindal

Member Empyrean

since 1999-11-06

Posts 42384
Florida's Foreverly Shores

18 posted 2007-09-01 01:12 PM

~*The sound of a kiss is not as strong as that of a cannon, but it's echo endures much longer*~
Email - [email protected]

	⇧ top of page ⇧
All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format.