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A home without a wall, |
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| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Today |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Today, not yesterday, tomorrow's dusk, a twilight zone of maybe someday, screams of future past or future present, time too slow to count, too quick to miss. The words, they parody my language, drift through missed allusions, tempos lost, intonations unvocalized. My friend, he is behind me, silent. Where is Mark? God, where is Mark? A word arises from the babble, "--k?" I stutter, mumble, grumble two: "I do." [This message has been edited by Brad (08-19-2007 08:46 PM).] |
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| © Copyright 2007 Brad - All Rights Reserved | |||
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Your poems always infuriate me, and this is no exception. It's like being on the edge of a cliff which, near the top, overhangs. Just below, but out of sight, you know there is a ledge with treasure on it. You lean and lean, daring the fulcrum, for just a glimpse before you fall, or withdraw. As usual there is little real music, and lots of philosophy meets poetry; cleverly constructed, with enough allusion to give a multiplicity of possibilities. Right from L1 - the ambiguity of "tomorrow's" it tantalises. In the light of the close the reader has to picture a marriage ceremony, and the simple hesitation of a groom looking for answers and support from his best man. But of course this metaphor is going somewhere much deeper (I hope!). Time, language, parallels, apostles, religion, the meaning of life ... I need a coffee quick - and time, time. M |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Brad wrote a poem. Very nice. I am very happy to read this and I like it. But you have the ability to make your poem rhyme better. http://www.rhymezone.com/ You inspired me to wrtie one. CA is welcomed by you and anyone. Dusk passes time to twilight through my pliable dreams day and night It is the Mark alright on the clock I slight to give a glance AM or PM though blinking bright is always out of my sight Today once again I am in delight Tomtoo |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: ROTF That is the funniest thing I've ever read here. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
grinning--I like that it doesn't rhyme, and I'm a chronic rhymer, m'self. I think though, that perhaps it could be restructured for a smoother read. (meter, maybe?) You did manage to capture confusion and tension though, but I would have loved it if there was just a teeny touch of an outsider's p.o.v. Your last line is the huge clue (Did you write this backwards by any chance?  )I just wish that there would have been more to this.(I'm voyeuristic--laughing) Still charming, though. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
moonbeam, Brad has no poems in Opens. Do you mean that Brad has published poetry books? Tomtoo |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
It's obvious, the poem isn't so much about rhyme as it is about meter: Near perfect Iambic Pentameter except for L6, which I can't help believing is intentional, given the writer's ability. Brad, I enjoyed it. What I didn't enjoy was seeing another's poem posted to the same thread. Somewhat distracting isn't it? Sid |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Is it really? (See, Brad? I don't know squat about meter) Thank's Sid, for correcting me, and all arguments about mentoring aside--would you mind if I wrote you about my problem with iambic pentameter? (I'm less leary of the private e mail thing--I just block people I don't care to talk to--shrug.) If you have time, or inclination, I'd love any help offered, and if you don't feel up to it for any reason, no harm no foul. And my apologies to Brad...for both side tracking his thread and offering unqualified advice about meter.  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Blank verse Karen. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
It seems clear that no one really found a clear message in this poem, despite its clean meter. Why not remove some of mist and let the message come out better? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: But Ess, as the poet says: quote: Do with your mind what you do with your eyes when you look at those 2D-3D pictures. Then tell me what you find please! M |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Moon's point: quote: and Sid's point: quote: Put the two together.  I'll let you in on some of the other stuff later. There is no message except perhaps that writing is like marriage and that both can be whole lot of fun. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Both can be a whole lot of frustration too  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
And you think I disagree? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Brad, Could you explain, from the author's perspective, the "I do"? and the word arising from the babel? I'm trying to learn to read your poetry Stephen |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: You obviously don't value your sanity. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Moonbeam, Do You think that "I do" only exists in marriage ceremony? One day, Brad, first time in his life, went to a poetry meeting with his friend Mark. The chair asked Brad if he worte good poems. Brad, so nevious, mumbled out "I do......writing is like marriage and that both can be whole lot of fun......And I'll let you in on some of the other stuff later" I think, although with a near perfect iambic Pentameter, the poem will be more sounding, emotional with a good rhyme. Tomtoo |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Tom Brilliant! The reluctant marriage of desire and duty, of words and intent, of language and meaning. quote: Don't be silly, I say it to my wife every day. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thanks for explaining it Brad--the writing as marriage thing. I'm afraid I just didn't "get it" on the first read. (I understand the concept of marriage a lot less too. *laughing*) and moonbeam? Thank you, too. I have been intrigued by your poetry, Brad, but always felt like I was missing something, so I never commented. (I don't mind being WRONG--I just didn't get it) But I guess sometimes all you have to do is ask, huh? Thanks for your patience, Brad (and everybody) and I guess I'll have to do some blank verse scribbling for a while to truly stamp it into my head. You guys are great, and the poem is still charming. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Moonbeam, and of meter and rhyme. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm out the door right now so don't have time to get to everybody: 1. Jim is about to undergo surgery. Please send him your thoughts and prayers. 2. Moon, check it with Pete, but I'm cool with it. Traditions die hard, but from the birth pangs . . . |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Jim has them. Thanks for letting us know, Brad. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Thank you Brad for the information about Jim. I wish Jim well and May the operation goes well too. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Thanks Brad. Pete, please check your e-mail. M |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Okay, let's see, what can I say? goal: write a 10 line poem (or thereabouts) in iambic pentameter -- blank verse. setting: my wedding (the unstated trick here is that my wedding was on Jejudo and conducted in Korean -- there was no English at all. There was one other native English speaker in attendance, Mark. A very good friend of mine who was in the audience. There was no best man -- though of course in a way he was -- no maid of honor etc. Different traditions). Karen is right that it was not written in a linear way. That's generally not how I work. I tend to work out lines with the above in mind and watch what happens. As soon as I see something come together I work out the rest. This is pretty much what I do regardless of the formal meter, free verse or whatnot. I do not write allegories. I have no taste for them (I never finished the Faerie Queen. I loved Animal Farm but find the endless comparisons to Soviet history irritating -- even if they do work very well.) I do not consider myself a difficult writer, but I do use allusion, association, and anecdote freely. This is the only thing that perhaps causes confusion. If you start with the question, "What does this mean?" You'll almost always get in trouble with my stuff. If you start with, "What's happening?" and then ask, "What else does that make me think about?" then you'll probably get a lot closer to what I'm thinking and therefore, if there is such a thing, the meaning. Because that's what I do. I'm going to try to do this in three parts: 1. Introduction (this post) 2. line by line commentary 3. weaknesses (what I think are the weaknesses of this poem) So, if you find this interesting, wait with baited breath for part 2. If not, go write a poem. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
  Jejudo Island pictures http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%E6%B5%8E%E6%B4%B2%E5%B2%9B&btnG=Search+Im ages&gbv=2 |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Jejudo is a magical place known for 3 things: roaring winds, magnificent rocks, and scores of women. and it is volcanically formed island. |
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guyoverthere Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58 |
“Today, not yesterday, tomorrow's dusk,” Nice first line. Nice little da-DA da-DA da-DA feel to it. And I get (at least I think) what you’re saying; namely that ‘yesterday’ is ‘tomorrow’s’ dusk. You’ve placed the emphasis on today. ‘Today’ is important. “a twilight zone of maybe someday, screams” While twilight zone naturally makes me think of the show and, thus, takes me ‘out’ of the poem, it does give the reader a clue as to how he/she should be feeling. “of future past or future present, time” I personally don’t like ‘of future past or future present’. It seems lazy “too slow to count, too quick to miss. The words,” I like this line. they parody my language, drift through missed” I like this line too. “allusions, tempos lost, intonations” Here is how I read this line: “alLUSions TEMpos LOST, INtoNAtions" And ‘intonations’ does not lead into ‘unvocalized’ very well. “unvocalized. My friend, he is behind” I like this line. “me, silent. Where is Mark? God, where is Mark?” This is how I read this line: “me Silent. WHERE is MARK? GOD where is MARK?” Is that what you intended? Or did you intend to stress the ‘where’ after ‘god’ and let ‘god’ have a weak stress? If you did intend to stress 'god' then is that an example of interior trochaic substitution? (for learning purposes) “A word arises from the babble, "--k?" I like this line. I stutter, mumble, grumble two: "I do." Nice closing line I liked your poem. I thought you could have used some more expressive words, but I still liked it. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Brad's Wedding Ah, azure sky leaned down his curious eyes The gentle magma stretched neck to peek Fairest Jejudo island twirled Cha-Cha To stir mist shading blue lagoon to green The agitated air tranquiled bird's songs to greet the noble passion, ocean deep Illuminated stars fluttered around Innumerate hearts deprived serene It was today, When Brad declared "I do" while Mark, again, garroted with octopus Aloof from the defiled chaotic world Magestic Orca cruised quiet side by side Contageous laughter squirted out arrogance Submerged two old lovebirds' giggling 're-do' (sky falls, volcano erupt, earthquake, tsunami, medias, other broken hearted ladies, wedding, Mark was eating live Octopus as other tourists did and choked, again. wedding held on aircraft-carrier, parents were there too) Jejudo is a place famous for honeymoon. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: But that's exactly where I wanted you to go. Why is getting 'out' of a poem a bad thing? Am I reading you wrong? I did have a few more lines going into specific episodes, but thought they were taking me too far away from the topic. Oh, the first line: I was thinking of time zones. and I did forget to mention that my parents were there. Not important for the poem, but nevertheless important. |
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guyoverthere Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58 |
You are reading it wrong. I was saying that putting 'twilight zone' in the poem clued me in on how to feel. But sometimes taking someone 'out of the poem' can be a bad idea. They might never get 'back in' - just my opinion. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Today, not yesterday, tomorrow's dusk, --As I've already mentioned, this is playing around with time zones. a twilight zone of maybe someday, screams --I wanted to bring in the TV show. The weakness as I see it is that twilight zone is overworked from a certain pov. or if you're not a fan of the show will sound silly. I would have accepted both criticisms as legitimate -- but not useful in terms of my goal here. In many ways, this was an attempt to lighten the tone if you will. If that didn't work, then it is a failure. of future past or future present, time --Lazy? Well, okay -- legitimate because I've completely ignored (or forgot, take your pick) that Moody Blues album -- but I was trying to get across three things: 1.Didactically, the use of symmetrical opposites is an important tool, use it judiciously and even abstraction can come across in poetry. I don't think it makes a poem, but neither does it break one. 2. This may seem a bit far out, but I wanted to echo Christmas Past and Christmas Present as in the ghost of. The idea of judgement, of judging and being judged. 3. Honestly, the whole idea of Heinlein's future history kept passing through my head. This makes sense because a wedding is an act of creation, it is the creation of a different future. Thus, the meat of the first sentence, both grammatically and thematically is "Today screams of future past and future present." The last part of the sentence: [time]too slow to count, too quick to miss. is impressionistic. Again, I use symmetrical opposites, but the interminable waiting before a wedding combined with the remarkable speed with which a ceremony takes place (for the actors at least if not the spectators). In other words, don't look at a clock, stay focused, it's not something you're supposed to miss. This first sentence is humorous to me. The simple fact is that while I believe all of the above, none of it, so far as I can remember, actually went through me head on my wedding day. A wedding is ultimately about the future, but on the actual day, I, and I suspect most of us, quite naturally, follow the Buddhist injunction to live in the NOW. Which leads to the second sentence. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Brad "[time]too slow to miss, too quick to count" will be more logic. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Perhaps it is logical, but it misses the point. When something takes a long time, staring or glancing at a watch makes it seem longer. When something is important, it tends to run by quickly so one must remain focused so that it is not missed. You're right that on a first reading, it makes more sense, but I wanted to have some fun too. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The words, they parody my language, --This was a tricky part. It is self-evident that another language does not parody one's own -- such a meaning is literally non-sensical. But again, I mean this in three different ways: 1. When a non-native speaker, untrained, speaks in English, it is often an unintended parody (don't worry, I'm sure Koreans feel the same way when I speak in Korean). 2. If one is not concentrating on the second language, it can often sound like one's own. This is a trick of the mind that I've experienced often enough. 3. I have, as Pete pointed out recently, repeatedly argued here that the concrete is more powerful than the abstract (what many of us mean when we say show, don't tell) and yet the first lines of this poem are abstract. Does that mean I can and you can't get away with it? No, but I was having fun with my own words within the poem. Now, of course, you can see that the poem is not, nor was it intended to be, an exact description of my wedding. The absurdity was a guide or an inspiration, nothing more. Therefore, while it is true that I do enjoy the lovely things that TM is saying about my home, it does little to add to the poem I was writing or trying to write. At any rate, the meat of this sentence: The words drift through missed allusions, tempos lost, intonations unvocalized. should be clear by now. I am trying to refer to the wedding in a foreign country and the poem itself. Actually, I think most of you got that already. But why break the meter on intonations? Truly, part of me wants to ask, "Do you really have to ask?" |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
--intonations unvocalized. I hope it is clear that breaking the meter on intonations is an attempt to make the meter of the poem clear. One of the reasons I wrote this the way I did was to try to show that a metrically regular poem is not a straitjacket, it need not limit your options any more than if you had no regular meter at all. And, perhaps most importantly, iambic poetry does not always sound the same. It can and does fit into the rhythms of natural speech quite nicely -- even moreso when you use substitution. A metered poem does not have to be perfect -- that in fact is a weaker poem, it is an exercise and nine times out of ten it looks like one (Not, of course, always.). The trick is to get the meter and the substitutions to work with the semantics of your poem to reinforce or counterpoint what it is you're trying to say. At the same time, things like pitch, stress, tempo, tone -- all of these are different in a foreign language. Believe it or not, most of the time you do not listen attentively to your own language, you simply know what they are going to say before they say it. Poetry usually tries to make you listen attentively, to shake you up a bit. I'm trying to do that here. Anecdote: I was reading a book in Korean and it ended with a exhortation to respect the West (He was talking about both America and Europe) because they have fought and died, toiled in blood, sweat, and tears to secure the blessings of liberty. I know the phrases and the speeches, but reading it in Korean made it more real for me. It almost brought me to tears. When I realized that it was really just a translation of something I had been told all my life, I laughed at myself. Poetry is kind of like that experience. Almost done, one more of these should cover it. Stephan, I'm getting to your question, I promise. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
My friend, --This was inside joke. I used to play around with that mythical listener, 'my friend', until a friend, a real friend, pointed that such an affectations were overused and trite. After thinking about it, I agreed. --What can I say, I was young. "he is behind me, silent. Where is Mark? God, where is Mark?" --Now, I have been told that the use of the proper name as something other than a proper name is frowned upon. Fair enough, but his name really was Mark and I really intended to imply meter. What're ya gonna do? Guy reads this "WHERE is MARK? GOD where is MARK?”" I read it as "WHERE is MARK? god, WHERE is MARK? In my reading the second where has more stress than the first where -- rising anxiety rather than rising frustration in Guy's case. But I think both are acceptable readings at this point. A word arises from the babble, "--k?" --babble should, among other things, be read literally here. I stutter, mumble, grumble two: "I do." --The anxiety of making a choice, of doing the work, of committing to something. To make it new requires that you know what came before. "I do" is the affirmation both of marriage and of a kind of fidelity to the English tradition and, specifically, the English poetic tradition. I read this in both the traditional, slightly nervous, response one hears in a wedding, and, at the same time, a more subtle commitment to tradition itself. ------------ Boy, glad that's over. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Just curious A poem about your wedding has not whatsoever a tiny bit romance. And the explanation...even drier for a poem. If only for the meter...then words get stressed for nothing. right? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Neither 'wedding' nor 'Jeju' appear in the poem. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
 [This message has been edited by TomMark (08-26-2007 05:18 PM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I don't understand why everyone had trouble with this- this is a positively easy Brad poem! (Yay! I read one of Brad's poems and didn't leave just scratching my head!) But, by easy, I don't mean simple. I love the wordplay here, and I was fine with the meter break (but 'unvocalized' trips me up- just doesn't seem to flow with the rest of the poem.) And I thought it was fun, too. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks Hush. That was all I was hoping for. Two people have tripped on 'unvocalized'. I'm not sure why -- perhaps it needs to be changed. |
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