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The Land of Make believe (Formally "Comfortable Liars")
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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The Land of Make believe (Formally "Comfortable Liars") |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
Here is a differen't version of the previous posted poem, and I eagerly await all responses (Especially Brad's  ).Here I am, Among these comfortable liars. Leaning with them, Whispering together in false tones. They are one, in their narrow thinking, And in their gestures, without meaning. This is the way we follow the leader Yet still, I stumble over broken columns. I am fabricated as they are, enveloped in my own contempt, And upon their will, Mine is bent. Solemnly, I trade my thoughts for echoes, mere replications of a collective mind. I cannot react or motion, Without a force not my own. This is our reality This is our fantasy These are our dreams, These are our waking moments. Life is none but a fallacy. A pointless endeavor , of which we play no part. For together we are, alone, We are not. I am a prisoner among them If one dies, We all die. So if I, So will they. And the midnight hour , I hear their voices calling: “This is The Land of Make Believe, This is The Land of Make Believe This is The Land of Make Believe” And if this is so, Then why does it not Believe in me. |
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Skippyrick Member
since 2006-05-16
Posts 150Rohnert Park |
hi: I can't believe I read the whole thing. what a mess. A jumble of contridictions from the start this poem is a lie, nasty and needs to be filed away never too be seen agian. Sorry I just did not like any part of it. Rick |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I actually like the wording and the cadence of the first stanza... but after that it unravels. Tripping over broken columns? Huh? Everything after the first stanza is circuitus and goes nowhere, seeming like a random collection of thoughts and images with no real point. |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
I think you're be a little harsh. Apparently this forum has no place for people who want to create their own, unique style of poetry. Anytime anything unconventional, or seemingly misunderstood is done everyone falls over eachother to sink the poem. Truely Sad. |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
Also, simply because you don't understand something doesen't mean you should criticize it. "Tripping over Broken Columns" is a reference to the crumbling support of society as individuals slowly conform to one another. Maybe if you thought about thing a little more you'd see deper meanings. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
First, if you're going to write stuff like this, some people aren't going to like it. Get used to it. Second, even if they don't like it, both Hush and Rick have added a little more, a reaction, a visceral reaction perhaps, but nevertheless a reaction. Both comments speak volumes -- use them. Third, it does you no good to tell readers what they should or shouldn't do, you may be correct, you may not be. It doesn't matter. What does matter is that you've got two posts. Thank them and hope for more. Fourth, if you're striving for something truly unique, if your own assessment is true, the reactions above are inevitable. Fifth, I think you're still too close to Eliot. You're own voice needs time to breath. Give it some time. the poem: Here I am, Among these comfortable liars. Leaning with them, Whispering together in false tones. They are one, in their narrow thinking, And in their gestures, without meaning. Hush liked this. As an introduction, it's okay, but you let it stand on it's own. Why? Instead of thinking in human terms, why not animal terms (dogs and primates huddle together for warmth, do they not?)? If you take this angle, the gestures, the narrow thinking and the rest take on a whole new angle. quote: And this could continue in that direction if you wanted to. It's just an idea. quote: But now you've switched scenes. I don't have a problem with that, but it is jarring. Is that the effect you want? Fabricated as the colums, as the comfortable liars? It's probably be better to detail what you mean here. quote: Why do you feel contempt? Because you succeed in leaning with the liars or because you can't match their skill? You've got a dilemma here. The narrator calls himself a liar, does this mean that this contempt is also a lie or is he telling the truth about lieing. The liars are bending your will. Same dilemma. This is not a bad thing, you have a lot of potential here. quote: All understandable thought are replications of a collective mind (We call it language). quote: 'react or move'. In a very real sense, nobody moves with a force that is their own. Think in terms of physics. And, of course, you cannot react without some action occurring first. quote: Unnecessary, unless, I don't know,you want to allude to Don Sutherland's voice in Final Fantasy. I laughed out loud when he said something like that. quote: Anti-Shakespeare? I could be wrong here, but I think this is what Hush means. Look at all the things that pop inside my head in the first few lines (and much, much more), but by this one, nothing happens. quote: I'm curious here, do you think Eliot gets aways with stuff like this? I don't. I think this is a weakness of 'The Hollow Men'. At least if or as long as one reads it in isolation. quote: This strikes me as another poem. I hope you write it. You know Robert Heinlein wrote a first novel that was never published until now. In it, apparently, he has most of the things that we have come to believe as characteristically Heinleinesque. In essence, he wrote an outline for the rest of his career. I wonder if that's what you've got here. But you've got to learn patience, and you've got to learn to breath. General advice: 1. The surface meaning is the meaning. 2. Allusions should enhance, never distract. 3. Contradictions should be used when you have a way of making them non-contradictory. Now, if I could just follow my own advice, I might turn out something decent someday. |
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Skippyrick Member
since 2006-05-16
Posts 150Rohnert Park |
Brad: You make some great points. funny thing though- my faveret line is (I cannot react or motion) not even a wave or blink without the help of others. Something about poesting. I never post a poem untill I have re-writen it at least 6 or 7 times. and then they go through maybe twice that many re-writes plus. I think most good poets would agree with me. I hope? Rick |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, you can use 'motion' as a verb, ie. 'I motioned him over here', but it strikes me as awkward. Rewrites: people do what they do. Some are quite proud of the fact that they wrote a poem in five minutes, some boast that they've done thirty rewrites or whatever. The moment of truth is when the reader reads it, how you get there seems irrelevant to me. With that said, rewrites for me are often the funnest part of writing. |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
at last, some useful critique. I'll go through it and take what you said into consideration. By the way, "I cannot gesture or motion without a force not my own" means the person is being controled by other people. |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
To me it seemed rough.. I agree with Brad but I think you should try connecting it together a bit more. Where you switch scenes from WE to I , maybe find something on level ground so it doesn't jar so much . Let it flow. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I am afraid there may not be much progress in your poetry if you continue writing in this awkward style. |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
At least I have a style. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Someone that has a house built on awkward and shifting sands may say that at least his house has something to stand on. But someone that has his house built on a fixed foundation may say that at least his house has something to stand on that is strong and stable. |
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Skippyrick Member
since 2006-05-16
Posts 150Rohnert Park |
hi: I would like to chime in hear to say something about style. Style is something that a poet devlopes over time. It is devloped as a poet learns first the basics of writing. Things like using lanuge properly, understanding rhyming, mettaphors and similes. Becoming comfetable with you tone and voice. Being aware of your reader, that is who you are writing for. Now something about this forum that I have noticed. It is the poems that need a lot of work or the one that are too personal that get alot of attention. Not poems that have been polished. Ofcoures there are exceptions to this I think becouse that as we get comfertable with ones style we begin to eather enjoy or pass by those postings. Just a thought: In as though I don't seem to get a lot of respones to the poems I post. MMM Is it that they are no good? I think not? Is it becouse no one reads them? Again I think not. What ever is it is when comment do come I take them in and let them inprove my writing. Rick |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
A style is no good if the style isn't producing accomplished poems. Challenge for Russel Write three stanzas with four lines each. Pick a theme, that is sold. For example: Spring to symbolize birth ,new life. Use metaphor to describe the theme. With a max. of 10 syllables per line. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Accomplished poems" See here |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
I cut the poem down some, as to flow a little better. See what you think. Here I am, Among these comfortable liars. Leaning with them, Whispering together in false tones. They are one, in their narrow thinking, And in their gestures, without meaning. Solemnly, I trade all my thoughts for distant echoes; mere replications of a collective mind. I cannot react or motion, Without a force not my own. For together we are, alone, We are not. I am a prisoner among them If one dies, We all die. So if I, So will they. And in the midnight hour , I hear their empty voices, Calling me, Calling me, Call me away. “This is the Land of Make Believe, This is The Land of Make Believe.” And if this is so, Then why does it not Believe in me. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Apparently you don't take subtelty well, so let me try this one more time. Your poetry isn't hard to understand. It's not unique or unconventional, either. I wrote this kind of poetry when I was 15 or 16. I doubt anybody here is struggling to grasp your meaning. In fact, you make it painfully obvious. Yet, your poetry is so vague as to not even ahve any meaning, like countless Hallmark platitudes or throw-away expressions. Trading thoughts for echoes? Follow the leader? Dude, I get it... but it's hard to swallow. 'And the midnight hour , I hear their voices calling: “This is The Land of Make Believe, This is The Land of Make Believe This is The Land of Make Believe” And if this is so, Then why does it not Believe in me.' I just think this is cheesy, and hammy, and trite inverted wordplay. And the poem... it's boring. The reaction is more interesting, if only to see what will pop out of your keyboard next. Oh, I know, you'll ask how I could possibly "not get it" when you've "explained it so many times..." but defending a poem to people who don't like it isn't going to make them like it anymore... and acting like a defensive child isn't going to make anyone look more critically at your poetry- it's likely to scare people off because they don't want to deal with your unjustified Prima Donna attitude. |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
If you are comparing my work with a fifteen or sixteen year olds then you are quite mistaken. I don't really care what you think, nor do I like your pushy, negative posts on my thread. If you have nothing valueble to post here, then don't post at all. |
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Alone in the dark Member
since 2006-02-10
Posts 105On the edge of an abyss |
Hi Russell! I am about as far from a critic as it's possible to be. I'm afraid I'm one of THOSE people who let their heart and emotions overrule their sense of structure and stanzas, and whatnot. While those things ARE important, I personally, believe that when your words begin to come from your head instead of your heart and soul, you lose something in the process. I, myself, loved your poem. I thought the lack of structure added to the dreamlike concept of "the land of make believe". I also enjoyed your scarecrow poem. I thought it was original and imaginitive. My opinion doesn't mean squat on this forum, but I have a sinking feeling they're going to eat me alive for it anyway! So, here's one last thought. Listen to the opinions of others, benefit from their knowledge if possible, but always, ALWAYS,stay true to yourself. ~*~Angel~*~ |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
Thank you so much for that. That was truely encouraging. A real breathe of fresh air. The reason that you enjoy this, and my other work, is that you do not devote all your time to breaking down poetry, and thefore have a more open viewpoint. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is people like you who I want to read my work. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Russell, have you tried the Open forum? That's where one goes to consistently get that kind of response. What we try to do here in CA is "break down poetry" and try to discover an communicate what works, what does not work and why. quote: Sorry but Hush has as much right to comment as you do to post. You certainly can't expect positive comments all the time, especially if you insist on posting this kind of stuff. As for valuable, she offered essential advice though maybe not in a form you might find palatable. You are not T.S. Eliot and likely will never be unless you give up this pretense, swallow your false pride and go back to the basics. Learn the tools of writing and of poetry, as so many here have said, before trying to experiment or emulate. The result will surely be much more acceptable. This is not a good poem and I don't think it can be salvaged. True, there are a couple of pretty good lines as has been pointed out but it just rambles and says essentially nothing of significance overall. Maybe try a less heroic subject. You can't solve or even adequately present humankind's deepest shortcomings or emotions in writing without excellent writing skills. You don't yet have those skills and are unlikely to attain them with your attitude that you are already there. There are a few critics here who could help a lot toward that end. But, you have to get over yourself and be willing to at least listen. Otherwise, you'll still be writing this same piece, in whatever form, forever. |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
I do not see the huge problem with this work, nor do I intend on on putting all my time and effort into pleasing the people on this forum. There is a certain way I like to write and, while there much room for improvement, I am simply not going to change that. I will take what advice is given and apply it as I see fit. [EDIT personal content] Even if she does not like what I write, there are better ways to say it, instead of spewing out insults such as, "I wrote this kind of stuff when I was fifteen or sixteen." Please. I highly doubt anyone at that age would care to craft poems about the complex conformity of society and how it relates to our inner conscience. I think the main problem I'm seeing is, in laymens terms, everyone needs to lighten up. I do not posess any superior poetical abillites, nor have I claimed to have such. I am merely getting my feet wet at this and nothing more. If this poem does not work, then so be it.I'll move on to the next one and try again. I assure you, on of the days I will get it right, and when I do I will be sure and post it on this forum. [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (01-04-2007 12:00 AM).] |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
Sorry I have to be insulted! (well kinda) Russel while I am not that great of a writer, I try to write stuff about important stuff..For instance sierra leones blood diamonds(which I am working on a rewrite of).. There are plenty of really good writers who are young.. I may not be one of them but Russel, I am 13 and i write about important things....Yes I make mistakes but if I keep listening to Essorant and all the amazing people on this forum and the readers who read my poetry slowly I will improve.. and these poems about whats going in the world will start to mean something.. Russell , as writers .. we write..our readers read.. If we want to get better , listen to the readers because that is all we have to go on. We don't really know how it sounds to other people.. but they do and are willing to tell us. SO let them.. If you want to learn you have to learn.. and learning isn't having everyone tell you, that you are special and everything is ok and telling you to ignore your mistakes... learning is making mistakes but learning what not to do and understanding then going on to apply that to what you are doing. You are welcome to go ahead and take what you want from our mixed oppinions about how to write. Just be prepared for us to speak out about whether we think you did the write thing.. YOU posted in the Critical analyss forum not us.. Accept that there is going to be pit falls and negativity in anything you try to accomplish. If you can't get over that..um,you are screwed in life! |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
Sorry, I had to chuckle on that one. How is it that a girl of only thirteen can lecture me on life? I find that very amusing, but I do take what you say seriously. |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
HeY.. if you didn't already know that then I have no more pointers.. you are doomed.. but if you already knew that then why are you chuckling? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
One definition of the 'poetic' is to make the familiar strange. Perhaps everybody should stop trying to be important but to write about something seemingly trivial and make it seem important. Ex: What's behind the door to your room? An insect? dust? |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'I highly doubt anyone at that age would care to craft poems about the complex conformity of society and how it relates to our inner conscience.' LOL... I did... but, like yours, they just weren't very good. And hey... 13 year old girls might surprise you... ever seen "The Virgin Suicides?" |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
There are many other people who think the poem is very good, not only on this forum but in my sphere of influence as well. If you're going to be rude and brash when you voice your opinion, then take it elsewhere. |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Oh my dear Russell He/She with one hand on a pen the other in a glove. Shall I be beaten by words or by the pen? I take my chances in the ring of words that mean nothing. I think that you are like Moonbeam in reverse. Learn grace, then post. CS |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
Wow you are so right. Moonbeam was harsh in crittique and refused to take crittiscmn for what he wrote sometimes, he kinda improved though. Russel doesn't like it when he is told he is wrong. Russel post in open if you don't want us to break down your poems. |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
Unless I know of the others not in this forum who think its very good and can respect that they know what they are talking about,their oppinions don't mean anything to me. I can't do that because I don't know these other people. If they are in this forum then I respect what they say. I do like this poem better though in terms of content ,length everthing. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"break down your poems" Actually, this forum is for breaking up poems, not down: Analysis (ana "up" + lysis "a loosening, a taking apart") Breaking down poems would be Critical Catalysis (cata "down" + lysis "loosening, a taking apart") Even though we break things or take things apart, we should keep them in an upwards (positive) direction |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
??? "but in my sphere of influence" Dude... you don't get it. Your sphere of influence? Just the wording you use shows how full of yourself you are... Sorry... if you were less abrasive I'd be able to leave it alone, but as is, it's like a scab I can't help myself from picking at. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Hush That is getting a bit personal. Our criticism should always be aimed at the poem or arguments, not at the poet or any other person. |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
So I'm starting to create a theory, that Russell is actually Moonbeams alter ego. Discuss.. Oh and another thing: quote: She can lecture you when she can write about it with more grace and style than you AND you ask for critique in an "open" forum as this. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
CS I doubt it. But even if it were Moonbeam there's no way we may prove it. |
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Russell8624 Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99Minnesota |
That is a ridiculous statement and I do not appreciate you making it. I will, in fact, not even dignify that comment with a response. This is no longer about poetry. It has become a circus of egos and childish games, and I will have no part of it. I will no longer post anything on here, as it is now immposible to obtain any useful critisim in the future. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: But when you pick too often, don't you end up being infected? Don't worry about who he is or isn't. Worry about the poetry and the rest will take care of itself. I'm not saying it's easy, but my hope is that as long as we play by the rules, as long as we talk about the poems and not do guessing games about the people behind them, most of this stuff will take care of itself. It's worth a shot. |
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