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kings and gods
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kings and gods |
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roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
after he places the spare tire on all of us sighing with relief i don an evangelic tone and declaim "sweet jesus there is a gawd and if you don't believe me laydees and gellmen look right up there!" and i put my arms around my friends sheep's eyes turned towards the sky flakes of meager starlight that seem suddenly breath-taking because gods give us such scenes and salvation, and humility they personify spiritual anarchy with their glorified anit-aristocracy we drove home with the evidence of god, the radiating stars, above our heads and found at home on the computer desk the remnants of where a king had been a flash of nepotism, coupled with spite creating a din over which you can't hear the gods say "we are the ones who supposedly rule" but, kings, they govern with implied noblity while they wait to be thrown out when finally a revolution.... and the computer desk emanates there are still too few gods and too many kings completely unrelated to my poem, i would like to address the recent issue with the "harsh" criticism. i spoken to several people, and i have decided this is nothing to leave passions over, but i would like to say this: in the future, if someone doesn't want me to reply to their post, please say so. please tell me also if you don't want my honest opinion. in this forum, appropriately deemed Critical Analysis, poets must be able to obtain truthful, and helpful critiques of their poems. that is why they come here. that is why i come here. also, i would like to point out that there are several dedicated members of this forum who i believe were treated unfairly by this latest controversy. not only the people who were insulted, but the people whose poems received less attention while this fiasco got 30 replies, or so. and there are also some people who stepped into this forum to judge, and then quietly removed themselves. this is wrong, and i have a hard time tolerating it. i also suggest that we treat all members with respect, their poetry with honesty. none of us are parents to other members here, so we shouldn't be talking down to them, reprimanding them, and offering condescending apologies "on behalf of the forum". people will apologize for themselves, and they will take responsiblity for themselves, otherwise, there's no reason to even bother with them. having said all this, i want to forget about this whole mess. i don't want to see rules and imbroglios of what can and cannot be said ruin the forum. i'm only going to offer what our moderator once said to me as far as my expectation here: "One: I assume that you wish in depth exploration of the ideas and structure of the poem itself (not your life)." this means that any comments i make refer to the poem, not the poet, not the poet's family, not the life of the poet. "Two: That you are actively looking for the opinions of others that may or may not help you improve your poem." this means that i assume that you are looking for not only the good, but also the bad, and that you are seeking honesty, and prepared for it. "Three: That you enjoy this 'type' of conversation." this means i don't want any sort of "hit and run". you want to discuss my critique, you want to discuss your poem. you are looking for people who want to read and respond and talk about poetry. we are lucky to have here a plethora pf talented poets. we can learn from ALL of them. i don't plan on compromising that. i also expect that any comments realted to this poem, or this address will be posted, and any personal problems will be discussed via email. thank you, and i hope to be reading and replying to all of your poetry soon. |
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| © Copyright 2000 roxane - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I don't have time to go after the poem (you have no idea how angry the wife is at the moment) I will say that I stand by your statement and will always stand by those sentiments.  Brad |
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karneliann Junior Member
since 1999-10-28
Posts 44Baltimore, MD, USA |
i really really enjoyed this, roxane. i'm a huge fan of free verse, and in my opinion this is quite exceptional. the intertwining of nature and technology is really remarkable and relevant to our times; not to mention something that i wish i could do as well as you. beautiful! "My empire is of the imagination." -- She |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
roxane, Ya know ... everytime I write your name, I spell it with two "N"s. Anyway, the poem ... excellent free verse with a timely message. The message below ... here, hear!!! warmhrt |
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patchoulipumpkin Member
since 2000-01-01
Posts 196Bermuda |
Roxane, This is a really interesting poem, but in my opinion i didn't fully understand what you were saying. I understand the kings and gods paralell, but i don't quite understand some language you used to describe it. "they personify spiritual anarchy with their glorified anit-aristocracy" is that meant to say "anti", i'm assuming it is. I have a grasp of what you are getting at with this phrase but i think it may need more explaining. Spiritual anarchy on its own, to me, needs a bit more explaining. I just don't understand the line is all. Also i understand the comparison with the computer and the stars as kings vs. gods, but don't understand some of the language here. "a flash of nepotism, coupled with spite, creating a din", I don't understand the nepotism part. Lastly, at the end of the second stanza to me, it seems you trail of on a bit of a theoretical rant in regards to kings i.e. "but kings, they govern with implied nobility while they wait to be thrown out when finally a revolution..." and then go on to explain it in your last stanza. To me it seemed too rushed, and a bit too much of an editorial. I appreciate what you are saying, and its an interesting idea which you start off well with the tire being changed and the great transition to the sky. I think that's really well done. Its just relating kings to computers and the language that you use to do it, where i get a little lost. But the concept is a solid one, that just needs work on expression. |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
I won't ever get the chance to do this again .. sentiments and personal situation match precisely .... lol ........ : I don't have time to go after the poem (you have no idea how angry the wife is at the moment) I will say that I stand by your statement and will always stand by those sentiments. Philip PS More on the poem later [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 01-17-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Roxane: I thought this was very well done. I am, as usual, impressed with your command of the English language. The lines "and i put my arms around my friends sheep's eyes turned towards the sky" and "a flash of nepotism, coupled with spite" are particularly well worded. A few comments on wording. First, "they personify spiritual anarchy with their glorified [anti]-aristocracy." You have a typo on "anti" by the way. The stars personifying spiritual anarchy is difficult to understand. Aren't stars used for navigation and, therefore, more of a personification of order than of anarchy? Perhaps the planets (which confounded the unwary navigator) that wander across the sky could be those heavenly anarchists but this wouldn't be readily apparent from a casual gaze at the heavens. Second, "they govern with implied noblity". Implied doesn't seem to be the right word here, considering the subject of your poem. Perhaps "supposed nobility" in it's place. As to the second, totally unrelated matter, I can't wait until it all blows over. Later, lady. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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haze Senior Member
since 1999-11-03
Posts 528Bethlehem, PA USA |
Roxanne, I mirror your sentiments (almost exactly) and invite your critique and comments at anytime. Your writing is always well honed, the depth is always divined in layers. Unfortunately, I can find nothing wrong with this work and nothing to add a quip about. "after he places the spare tire on all of us sighing with relief i don an evangelic tone and declaim "sweet jesus there is a gawd and if you don't believe me laydees and gellmen look right up there!" and i put my arms around my friends sheep's eyes turned towards the sky flakes of meager starlight that seem suddenly breath-taking because gods give us such scenes and salvation, and humility they personify spiritual anarchy with their glorified anit-aristocracy" FABULOUS WRITING...FABULOUS IMAGERY You are an exceptional writer I much admire. I am glad you decided to stay. Til Again ~haze |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well, I also don't have time right now to really study the poem (your work can be pretty complicated and involved for a slow reader)  But I must fully approve of your unrelated comment. And please feel free to critique anything I write, good or bad, any time you feel so inclined.Pete |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Rox I did have a look at this tonight and apart from echoing Haze's comments I am at a loss to know how to proceed. I really thought i was getting to grips with your stuff and i could whiz through this with a snappy and informed critique ... no such luck .. I've printed it out and will be back tomorrow Philip |
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Kirk T Walker Member
since 2000-01-13
Posts 357Liberty, MO |
First of all, nice job. I really liked the dialog portion of this poem: "'Sweet jesus there is a gawd and if you don't believe me laydees and gellmen look right up there!'" A professor of mine, always said (he was quoting somebody but I'm not sure who) that if the stars only came out once a year, nobody would doubt the existense of God. But as it is, we take the stars for granted. (On a personal note, I didn't get glasses until I was a junior in high school and up until that point I had never really seen the stars as anything but little blurs. So I am constantly amazed by the beauty of the stars.) Anyway, for criticism: Unclear if the speaker is being sarcastic in the dialog (seems like it a little because of "don an evangilic tone" and because of the use of "sweet jesus" as an exclamation). The last line of the first stanza is a little over my head, I guess. Likewise, I don't follow all of the second stanza. I loved the concluding lines: there are still too few gods and too many kings Second, commenting on your later (and unrelated use) of the word "plethora": "we are lucky to have here a plethora pf talented poets" I have never heard or seen the word used except for El Guapo from The Three Amigos. (Until now, of course. ha ha) |
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roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
thanks all for the critiques and support. i guess i have to explain a little of this poem. it's inspired by last friday night, and being stuck out in the wilderness with several flat tires. the sarcasm of the evangelical tone was done purposely. that is because the poem refers not LITERALLY to gods and kings, but rather those roles in our society. the parallel is supposed to be drawn between derick, my friend who fixed the tire, and the traditional judeo-christian god who gives us nice things like stars and humility. the part about the anti-aristocracy refers to the "justice" of gods and their personifications. the personifying of anarchy doesn't deal so much with the stars as gods, as the fates will have us have many paths. a little confusing? the kings are people who don't do anything, rather they tell us what to do. the implied nobility, jim, you might be right, i don't know exactly what word i was looking for, but i thought it was implied. you'll notice that it is the computer DESK and not the computer that emanates the king. that is because there was a harsh and belittling note left on it by my mother when i returned home at 4 am. the nepotism has to do with a bit of jealousy i have for my brother who gets better treatment than i, and the "coupled with spite" has to do with the fact that she already dislikes me. the din blocks out the thoughts of how wonderful it was to have the tire fixed, to have the stars, but at least the kings will be thrown out, upon a revolution... (when i turn 18) i tried to make the poem pretty vague, as the specific details are pretty boring. i'm glad it was well received. thanks also for reading and understanding my "unrelated comment". |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Rox, Boy, am i glad i didn't attempt a detailed critique of this ..lol .. it could've been mightily embarrassing ... Anyway despite that, it was up to your usual standard .. a wonderful and unsettling read Thanks P. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Roxane, I rarely say this but I think the vagueness of your poem adds to its strength -- just call me Mr. inconsistent for the next few days I guess. Your explanation gives us the inspiration for the poem but by placing it in the words you did, it also creates several alternate interpretations. As soon as I get into work today, I'll give you one. However, do me a favor and change the typo as soon as you can (anit-aristocracy). The one thing I can't touch is the alternate spellings of ladies and gentleman. I think it's certainly one of your best. Brad PS Thanks for calling "Maricel's Graduation" one of our 'favorites'. I guess were both romantics as well as Romantics. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Hey, I'm back. Okay, finally, I can look at this poem a little more in depth. Basically I want to say that the metaphors you've used here create, in my opinion, a far bigger picture than your explanation. after he places the spare tire on all of us sighing with relief i don an evangelic tone and declaim --Your explanation certainly fits if you assume a pause in the first and second lines but if you don't you can see someone putting a 'spare tire' on people who then sigh with relief. The 'he' would be someone who doesn't need the tire -- a junk yard owner or something. This would have to be a pretty big spare tire but I began to see it as a large inner tube, a floatation device for a large number of people. Pretty common occurance for most Americans at least. This immediate fits because it allows the second part to come together much more naturally: "sweet jesus there is a gawd and if you don't believe me laydees and gellmen look right up there!" --Since you are lieing down as you travel down a 'river', it is far easier to make this statement. and i put my arms around my friends sheep's eyes turned towards the sky --this creates a feeling of botherhood/sisterhood here with the 'sheep' being a biblical reference to the sheep without a shepard. flakes of meager starlight that seem suddenly breath-taking because gods give us such scenes and salvation, and humility they personify spiritual anarchy with their glorified anti-aristocracy --This is a great turn in the poem because instead of the usual association with god and king, you separate the two and show that by simply showing the wonders of the universe, the need for 'aristocracy', for hierarchy, actually disappears (I can't think of a poem with a description of the sky that has worked as well for me as this one by the way). If you follow my interpretation so far (don't forget to see spare,not as in the back of a car, but as in unneeded, given away freely -- "Yeah, I have a spare."), the image is that of a group of friends sharing a night ride down a river only to feel a since of communal unity with all of them looking up at the stars. I loved this. we drove home with the evidence of god, the radiating stars, above our heads --the ride ends and they 'ride' home with this feeling still inside them. and found at home on the computer desk the remnants of where a king had been --the world of aristocracy enters but with 'remnants', of course, you alread hint that such so called monarchs are anochronistic. a flash of nepotism, coupled with spite creating a din over which you can't hear the gods say "we are the ones who supposedly rule" --the sense of communion is lost but with the use of 'supposedly' here you've again shown that the gods don't demand rule as such, they simply exist. There is no need to bow down in any other sense than a sense of awe. Again, you break with the whole Medieval 'Divine Right of Kings' thing as well as the gods being kinds of kings. but, kings, they govern with implied noblity while they wait to be thrown out when finally a revolution.... --if you know me at all, you gotta know I live this. and the computer desk emanates there are still too few gods and too many kings --While in a certain sense, you are almost making the argument against technology earlier with 'computer desk', you show here that technology also shows the problem. I think the use of 'emanates' almost personifies the desk, desperately telling you that we must be free of kings and free of authority to truly understand the gods. I know many people are afraid of technology but I don't see that here. I see technology (or rather tools) as one path to the gods, to union, to communion. It is the 'remnants' of kings that is intent on controlling that path. You don't have to buy all this, of course, but I think it works pretty well as a poem of ecstatic freedom. Roxane, your use of gods and kings is very different from anything that I can remember reading. Like I said before, in a different way, great job, Brad |
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