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Alwye
Moderator
Member Elite
since 1999-06-16
Posts 3850
In the space between moments

0 posted 2000-08-27 12:39 PM


*deep breath*  Okay, this is my first time in here, but I thought it was time...so here goes nothin!  

Lavender morning
dappled in dizzy swirls of
diamond sunshine
which crown your soul
in dustings of light.

A seraph in my eyes,
you are...
But shaken, vulnerable
skin of your spirit torn
leaving a gaping chasm
that is chilled by
the ice in your tears.

Phantoms now hang behind
your granite walls
howling of the unspoken words
and pounding on the glass
of your stoic eyes.

A wounded angel, yes...
But what has become of
the gentle laughter,
the light?  

Surely you have not forgotten
the puffs of iridescent cloud
or smatterings of crystal rain
which we once knew
together.

For I loved you then
as I love you now...
Not with regard to what should be
or what has to be
but to what simply is.  

So, my precious one
leave your fear to yesterday...
Let the sunshine fall in
dizzy swirls once more
and with me by your side
bask in the lavender morning
eternally.
  



*Krista Knutson*

"You never lose by loving. You always lose by holding back."
-Barbara DeAngelis

© Copyright 2000 Krista Botterill - All Rights Reserved
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354
Listening to every heart
1 posted 2000-08-27 09:48 PM


Shall golden shadows make your lavender mornings eternally!

Krista, I'm sorry. I could find NOTHING that I would change in this, and have bookmarked it to remind myself to tell you to submit this for the next book!

Well done!

Dark Angel
Member Patricius
since 1999-08-04
Posts 10095

2 posted 2000-08-28 02:46 AM


Yep same, love it all   Beautiful Krista!
Honeybee
Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-26
Posts 5372
Ontario, CANADA
3 posted 2000-08-28 09:38 PM



As always, Krista, your talent is amazing and ahead of it's time!    Simply beautiful with perfect imagery, I love the thought of lavender morning.  You should share more of your poems in here, you will wow them all as you do with us in open poetry!  

Take care,
Melissa Honeybee


The beauty of poetry gives me wings to fly


Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
4 posted 2000-08-29 02:10 AM


Hello Alwye,

Now I'm going to be honest and it might come off as mean but please don't interpret it as so.

"Lavender morning
dappled in dizzy swirls of
diamond sunshine
which crown your soul
in dustings of light."

Lots of pretty words but I don't see their point? You are saying a lot but telling us nothing (that's not meant as harsh as it may sound but more in a truthful opinionated manner).

"A seraph in my eyes,
you are...
But shaken, vulnerable
skin of your spirit torn
leaving a gaping chasm
that is chilled by
the ice in your tears."

You haven't really told the reader very much by this point other then its a beautiful lavender morning (I'm guessing because you are with the person you love) and the person you consider to be like an angel is in pain.

"A wounded angel, yes...
But what has become of
the gentle laughter,
the light?"

In my opinion the light is a veeeeeeery cliched way of saying the goodness or happiness. What has become of the gentle laughter and the light? Excellent question, please inform the reader of it....sorry, that was a little sarcastic but I just had to say it.

"Surely you have not forgotten
the puffs of iridescent cloud
or smatterings of crystal rain
which we once knew
together."

Not sure but I think iridescent has two "r"'s.
I really don't see the whole connection of this stanza or its imagry with the rest of the poem....One minute you are saying what happened to that person I once knew, next you are saying don't you remember the clouds and rain we once knew??? Personally I don't understand it, perhaps you could elaborate.

"For I loved you then
as I love you now...
Not with regard to what should be
or what has to be
but to what simply is."

For I loved you then as I love you know has probably been copyrighted by ten thousand songwriters and five thousand poets....and now that I just wrote it I have to send them all a ten cent cheque. However, on a positive note I kinda like the last three lines of this stanza....nice way of saying unconditional love.

"So, my precious one
leave your fear to yesterday...
Let the sunshine fall in
dizzy swirls once more
and with me by your side
bask in the lavender morning
eternally."

A gem is precious, perhaps you could do more justice to this loved one by analogically (is that a word) expanding on precious. You talk of fear and pain but we have nooooooo idea what is bothering this person.....so why should we empathise with the relationship.....for all we know he/she could be sad because of a lost rubber ducky. The ending came off as a little hokey in my opinion, sorry but that's just my honest feelings on it..."Basking eternally in something" is kinda overdone IMO.

Anyways, sorry I didn't like your poem, you can't please everyone. And please remember that in no way should you talk this as a critique of you but only as my current thoughts on this particular poem.
Thanks for the read, take care,
Trevor


****on a side note I'd like to pose a couple of questions to the others who have already responded.


Sunshine:

First off,
"Shall golden shadows make your lavender mornings eternally!"

If you know what a golden shower is you wouldn't be wishing for one. j/k
Secondly,
Just wondering if you caught the whole of the poem, if so, and time permiting (and with 5000+ posts I know you have some time on your hands), could you possibly break the lines down for me and maybe explain some of Alwye's analogies and their corelation to the story? I'd really appreciate it, thanks.

Dark Angel:

I was wondering if Sunshine can't do me that favour then maybe you could. Now maybe its just me but are you sure you couldn't find anything you'd consider changing about this poem?

Mellisa:

I'm all for encouragement, but honestly Melissa would you consider this groundbreaking work...ie, ahead of it's time, if so perhaps invest in a library card. If you really want her to write groundbreaking work then stop patronizing her. Maybe you could explain her analogies and their relation to her story.


Can anyone of you three tell me what

"Lavender morning
dappled in dizzy swirls of
diamond sunshine
which crown your soul
in dustings of light."

....actually means????and what it means to this poem.


Sorry Alwye but I just have this feeling that these three either didn't really read your poem or aren't being completely honest. I for one know that every book, poem, letter, or goddangit thing I can think of I have at least one idea for change...now I'm not saying that it's a better idea then the original but hey, at least its more inspiring then "Great Stuff!!!" and gold stickers. Now if a simple minded man like myself can find things he'd consider changing in Shakespeare's writings then surely at least one of these three ladies can find tid-bit of advice to pass on to you...well other than ignoring me.

Thanks, take care,

Trevor


Dark Angel
Member Patricius
since 1999-08-04
Posts 10095

5 posted 2000-08-29 03:36 AM


Trevor,

In all honesty.... NO, I loved the poem, it made me feel good and I loved the imagery and the pretty words. I wouldn't change a thing!  

Thank you
Maree

oh except for irridescent, it is spelt with two r's and I had missed that.  

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
6 posted 2000-08-29 04:57 AM


Well, um, er, gee, guys, I pretty much have to go with Trevor on this one -- with the exception of dream you pretty much use every emotionally laden word in the book.

I do have an idea though. What about alternating these stanzas with images of the pain involved -- not too graphic, I think innuendo might be better here or if it's a relatively trivial matter (failing a test at school or some such thing) try to show the pain, stress, and horror that a child goes through. I don't necessarily mean to turn this into a sad, depressing, or violent piece but to balance it.  If a poem goes too far in the opposite direction (and I just came from a site where I saw a lot of that), it's just as bad as a poem that's too "nice".

Then, (and this would be the really interesting part because it'll show the personality of the person being addressed)
try to show what the reaction to the words are -- does it help or does the listener rebel?

Just an opinion,
Brad

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
7 posted 2000-08-29 11:33 AM


Hello everyone,

Dark Angel:

Isn't "spelt" spelled differently?

Okay Dark Angel, I'll bite, maybe you did love the poem, but now I ask why? I personally have no real idea what the poem was about (honest) so maybe if you have a few moments you could explain it to me. Even the imagery was confusing for me. Please if you have a few moments, tell me what the poem was about and relate that to what you thought of the poem. Thanks.


Also Alwye,

Just wanted to add that I hope my comments don't inhibit you from posting at CA. In fact I hope it does just the opposite. CA is a place of not only posting one's work but also of being able to speak somewhat freely about people's poetry. If you had a hole in your pants and certain "things" were being exposed and you didn't know it and you asked someone how you looked, would you rather have them say, you look fine or tell you there is a hole in your pants? Anyways I think you understand what I'm saying. I'd also like to add...sorry I'm starting to ramble on and this is directed towards the three ladies who first responded to your  poem.....that you can never know if one is being honest about something, like a critique, unless the back there statements up with an explanation of why they liked or disliked something.


For example:

Sunshine:

Why was the poem great for you? What did the poem mean to you?

Dark Angel:

Same questions.

Honeybee:

How does this showcase Alwye's visionary style? What makes this groundbreaking work for you? What made it beautiful and how did the author's use of words make allllll the images perfect? You may love the thought of a Lavender morning but what the hell is a lavender morning and what relevance does it have with the story in the poem? Last but not least, did you really think this is "wow" material and are you being completely honest with the author?...oh one more question...directed at all three of you...do you think your comments helped in the growth of Alwye as a writer or do you think it hinders her growth?

Thanks,

Trevor



Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
8 posted 2000-08-29 12:05 PM


Well, I won't say that I didn't like your poem (and I don't think Trevor meant exactly that either). It's certainly nice enough and you used lots of pretty, poetic words and images. But it really doesn't say a lot either. I think that's what Trevor meant or was trying to convey, in his own diplomatic style  

Actually, he always does a great service for this forum in reminding us that the purpose of posting here is to receive honest critiques, from which we may actually learn something. If the only comments we ever receive are those telling us how wonderful our writing is, we may eventually begin to believe that. The real pitfall there is that we may no longer feel the need to improve our work.

Well, I also begin to ramble. But I did want to add another opinion and, in some small way, possibly encourage Trevor to continue his efforts to maintain the credibility and intent of CA.

Thanks all,
Pete

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
9 posted 2000-08-29 02:31 PM


Hello again,

PETE:

"Well, I won't say that I didn't like your poem (and I don't think Trevor meant exactly that either)."

Actually Pete I didn't like the poem...however that does not mean I don't like some things about the poem nor does it mean I don't like the person. I didn't like the poem as a whole and other than a couple of lines I found the poem to be poorly written. Now that also doesn't mean it is a good or bad poem, my opinion is just that, my opinion. Nor does it mean I think Alwye can not write poetry I'd appreciate or that she should stop writing. It simply means that this particular piece of poetry did not suit my taste or desire for what I consider to be good poetry...more clarifying that for anyone else who may read this and not so much for you Pete....we all have to try and justify our words  

Should I feel bad because I don't like a particular poem, no of course not...do I feel bad I don't like this poem, yes I do, but not as bad as I'd feel in lying to Alwye by saying that I liked this poem. I wish I could like everything written by everyone but its just not possible.

"It's certainly nice enough and you used lots of pretty, poetic words and images. But it really doesn't say a lot either. I think that's what Trevor meant or was trying to convey, in his own diplomatic style."

I have a diplomatic style???  

"Actually, he always does a great service for this forum in reminding us that the purpose of posting here is to receive honest critiques, from which we may actually learn something."

Thanks for the compliment Pete. I believe that type of thinking, honestly conveying thoughts, should extend into everyday life and not just critiquing poetry.

"If the only comments we ever receive are those telling us how wonderful our writing is, we may eventually begin to believe that. The real pitfall there is that we may no longer feel the need to improve our work."

Couldn't agree with you more Pete. Not only does it often feed complacency through arrogance but such a way offers no new knowledge to feed from, to grow from and how can one become a better writer, or even a better person without new influences, new knowledge, new food...and I'm not talking about Wendy's new Double Swiss Bacon Burger....but now that I think about it...that meal sounds damn good  

"But I did want to add another opinion and, in some small way, possibly encourage Trevor to continue his efforts to maintain the credibility and intent of CA."

Thanks for the support Pete. I figured it was about that time....rant time...where I get up on my soapbox and preach the beauty of opening up to one another honestly. As painful as it may be, honesty is the most long-term benficial way to communicate with one another.

Take care,

Trevor

Alwye
Moderator
Member Elite
since 1999-06-16
Posts 3850
In the space between moments
10 posted 2000-08-29 11:38 PM


To Sunshine, Maree, and Melissa- I'm really glad that you guys enjoyed it and I appreciate the kind comments.  I do believe that you were all being honest with your opinions, contrary to what Trevor may believe.   And Trevor, Brad, and Not A Poet, let me try and explain myself a little here...

"Lavender morning
dappled in dizzy swirls of
diamond sunshine
which crown your soul
in dustings of light." --The point is that there is no huge ground breaking event happening.  It's meant to paint the scene, not to be overcrowded with having a specific "point".  

"A seraph in my eyes,
you are...
But shaken, vulnerable
skin of your spirit torn
leaving a gaping chasm
that is chilled by
the ice in your tears." Trevor, you responded with "You haven't really told the reader very much by this point other then its a beautiful lavender morning (I'm guessing because you are with the person you love) and the person you consider to be like an angel is in pain."
Yes, what you said is exactly what I meant by that verse.  Do you really need to know if they lost a loved one or their job or whatever?  I don't think that is an issue.  One just needs to know that the other one is hurting, IMO.

"A wounded angel, yes...
But what has become of
the gentle laughter,
the light?" *sheepish look* Okay, so I agree with you here...but I liked how it sounded, even if it was very cliched, which it is.  I simply could not think of a better way to put it...


"Surely you have not forgotten
the puffs of iridescent cloud
or smatterings of crystal rain
which we once knew
together." With this I was trying to remind my lover of the good times, basically.  The rain and the clouds are meant to represent an earlier time, and therefore a different person than what that person has now become. Oh, and I fixed the spelling error...gosh, I usually find those things too...


"For I loved you then
as I love you now...
Not with regard to what should be
or what has to be
but to what simply is." Yeah, "For I loved you then as I love you now" is indeed a wayyy over used line.  Any suggestions to help me out there?

  
"So, my precious one
leave your fear to yesterday...
Let the sunshine fall in
dizzy swirls once more
and with me by your side
bask in the lavender morning
eternally." I simply meant for precious to mean beloved...I purposely did not expand on it because it was meant to be more as a name for the person, not an adjective for them...(if that makes any sense, lol). And I know the "bask in the lavender morning eternally" is a little "hokey" as you put it Trevor, but once again, I wasn't quite sure how to end it and still tie in with the beginning.  Not to say that I don't like it, which I do, I just think that it could possibly be changed.  

PHEW!  I made it through so far!  I realize that not everyone likes every kind of poem, and that's fine with me.  I also was somewhat taken back by the fact that attacks were made on Sunshine, Dark angel, and Melissa because of their preferences.  Aren't they entitled to their opinion just as you are to yours, Trevor?  Anyways, I won't frequent this forum, because it's kinda rough on this 16 year old who still has a lot to learn, but I do plan to poke in from time to time and post here and there.  Thank you to all who replied to me, regardless of your opinions.  
< !signature-->

*Krista Knutson*

"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." -Confucious


[This message has been edited by Alwye (edited 08-29-2000).]

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
11 posted 2000-08-30 03:27 AM


Hello Krista,

"The point is that there is no huge ground breaking event happening.  It's meant to paint the scene, not to be overcrowded with having a specific "point"."

I'll buy that explanation. If you're intent was to only just give a pretty fluffy picture then that stanza is more effective then I first thought. Because I found no real meaning, only non-secular images.

"Yes, what you said is exactly what I meant by that verse.  Do you really need to know if they lost a loved one or their job or whatever?  I don't think that is an issue."

But how can you expect to draw a reader in if the reader can not relate to what is or has occured. The guy is in pain....well I think we all suffer pain on a daily basis so for me as a reader to really care about the characters involved I need to have some degree of feeling like I know this person and understand their pain....I need them to step out of the realm of facelessness. For all I know this pain was brought about by something bad that he did. There are different emotional pains, not only in degrees but in uniqueness as well. I guess you left me wanting to know more about the scenario because you fall onto cliched territory with " skin of your spirit torn
leaving a gaping chasm
that is chilled by
the ice in your tears"...left me wanting to know how this event is an event experienced by you and not just another tumultous love poem. Being more specific also gives the reader more of you to feed off of, more to digest and think about.

""For I loved you then as I love you now" is indeed a wayyy over used line.  Any suggestions to help me out there?"

None from me, been racking my brain out trying to think of one but they all come out cliched. Hard not to sound cliched in a love poem.

"I also was somewhat taken back by the fact that attacks were made on Sunshine, Dark angel, and Melissa because of their preferences."

I don't see how asking questions regarding their opinions is considered an attack. If one is afraid to have their statements challanged then why speak. Am I supposed to take everything one says as the truth? If there is truth to their words then they should easily be able to give examples of why they felt a certain way. All I'm really asking is why they loved your poem? And if they truly loved your poem they should be able to effortlessly give references as to why. I'm trying to communicate with people, I'm trying to light a fire under asses and get people to start discussing poetry and related things and challenge each other and learn from each other. The more exchange of ideas and thoughts, the rounder the people we will be. Why must people always call it an attack when questioning something? Those three can prefer what they want, I have no quams with that and even keep those preferences to themselves but when they post at a forum whose purpose is the discussion of poetry then they should expand on the reasoning behind their opinions. Once you openly state your opinion you should be ready to have that opinion scrutinized....just as mine is being by you. The beauty of it is that it is a very effective way of understanding ourselves, others and the world we live in. I don't know how much knowledge I would have been lost if I hadn't opened my big mouth only to have someone challenge me. Things are learned not from being right nor having an opinion agreed upon but from the exact opposite.


"Aren't they entitled to their opinion just as you are to yours, Trevor?"

Can't say I remember ever saying they weren't, but just as they are entitled to an opinion, so am I, even to the extent of having an opinion of their opinion.

"I won't frequent this forum, because it's kinda rough on this 16 year old who still has a lot to learn, but I do plan to poke in from time to time and post here and there."

I sincerely hope you will reconsider that decision and stay at CA. We all have a lot to learn, I hope you haven't interpreted my words as me thinking I know something....because I honestly don't know much, that's why I discuss things, so that I may learn. It is the very fact that I have so much to learn that keeps me from posting in Open Poetry (not meant as a slag against OP, all forums here serve a purpose). I believe CA has more to offer in terms of learning different writing techniques. Open Poetry does showcase different styles and formats and techniques however I rarely see them discussed. I'm not trying to be mean with this upcoming statement but I feel it necessary to say this, even though compliments make one feel good, do you really think all readers mean what they say when they only say things like, "Wonderful poem" or "Terrific work", etc. after they read a poem of yours? If not, doesn't it bother you that these people are lying to you? Telling you one thing but meaning another....what is their motive...probably looking for a compliment handout....dirty beggars Would you believe me if I told you I was a twenty foot giant that lives in a cloud? Of course not, why because I can not use references to prove this point. IMO credibility is often lost without at least a little detailed explanation.

Anyways I'm carrying on a little too much. Once again I hope you reconsider and post more at CA. I think you'd be doing yourself a dis-service by only searching for back-slapping comments.

Take care,

Trevor

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
12 posted 2000-08-30 11:18 AM


Krista,

I also hope that you were not really serious, or that you will reconsider, and continue participating at CA. IMO you have a lot to add to this group. I also firmly believe there is a lot more to learn here, in a much shorter time, than elsewhere. So I eagerly anticipate more of your contributions.

Pete

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
13 posted 2000-08-30 11:57 AM


Trev .... :

"SPELT" - chiefly British past and past participle of SPELL

hummm... i thought you lot over there were meant to be part of the Empire ... no?  

P

PS I have stuff to say about this thread btw ....lol  ...... later

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
14 posted 2000-08-30 06:09 PM


ok "later" is now .......lol

Krista .. Hi, i don’t believe we’ve met?  My name is Philip (with ONE “L”) and i don’t like being called Poertree (silly name)...... ok that’s over ... i hope you don’t mind if I kinda hijack your thread seeing as it seems to be creating some discussion about the forum - a subject close to my heart right now ......

“iridescent” has one “r” Trev .. is that what you meant?

quote:
I have a diplomatic style???”
... nope you don’t, lol, you have a truthful and undiplomatic style ..  

quote:
"If the only comments we ever receive are those telling us how wonderful our writing is, we may eventually begin to believe that. The real pitfall there is that we may no longer feel the need to improve our work."
Couldn't agree with you more Pete. Not only does it often feed complacency through arrogance but such a way offers no new knowledge to feed from, to grow from and how can one become a better writer, or even a better person without new influences, new knowledge, new food.


I couldn’t agree more as well.

First to Krista:

Krista I have to agree with most of what Trevor said and also I thought brads ideas were pretty good as well.

You’ll notice though that when brad made his suggestions he didn’t confine his advice to just tinkering with odd lines or words such as the phrase “For I loved you then
as I love you now”, instead he made suggestions for a reforming of the entire poem, and a new way to approach it.

In a different way I think trev was making the same suggestion, and it won’t maybe surprise you to hear that that is my advice as well.  

I’m assuming here that you posted to CA not just to showcase your work, but because you wanted something more than just a big “WOW” from your friends.  I’m assuming in fact that you want to try and write better poetry.  Certainly your excellent and constructive responses to trev’s critique suggest to me that you are serious about learning - if that’s the case you mustn’t just confine yourself to learning about the faults in the poems you attempt to write, you must try to open your mind to a wider spectrum of possibilities, and look at what you actually choose to write ABOUT. Consider your subject and theme carefully before putting pen to paper or finger to keyboard or whatever.

By this I mean that if all you want to do is write poetry as some kind of spontaneous conduit for your particular emotions of the moment, that’s fine, but its fairly unlikely that you’ll progress very far in the art and craft of writing poems if that’s what you choose to do.

Think about what “good” poetry is?  

Do you not think it should try and make some impact on the world, or at least upon your target audience?  Do you not feel that in your poems you want to do something new,  something to raise real emotion in your audience, preferably in a way they have not been roused before?  

If the answer to any or all of those questions is “yes”, then in picking the theme of “love” to write about you virtually guarantee failure unless you are a very very talented poet indeed.  The reason?  Well, simply that its been done a billion times before, and there’s only so many words in the English language - and most love poems scream cliche before they even get past the first line...lol

So to put it bluntly, changing a few lines in this poem is unlikely to produce something original or new ..or something that will galvanise a close reader of the piece.  That’s why brad is right to take a fresh look at the whole poem and what you are trying to achieve and communicate.

HOWEVER..... and it is a BIG however ...... you have, despite the odds stacked against you, come up with some interesting images AND, i don’t care what brad will think, I like your bit of alliteration in the first stanza

“dappled in dizzy swirls of
diamond sunshine
which crown your soul
in dustings”

its kind of fun and light and fits the mood.   And yes i think you DO create a mood .. the problem is though as trevor identifies, you don’t actually do much with it ... which is kind of a shame because there are some good moments in the poem.....

I would add my voice to pete and trev and ask you to carry on posting, and replying .... you answered trev’s points well in your response; and thanks for the original post and an interesting thread.

Now a general observation or two ........ or three:

trevor tries to promote debate and discussion in CA ...

CA itself is one of the few forums on the net to my knowledge that actively encourages discussion of the critiques themselves (see Brad’s thread) with VERY good reason ... quite often i feel you learn more from having to defend or argue your views than from the original reply.  

Thus trev was absolutely within the guidelines to query Melissa Maree and Sunshine.  He is, as he always has been, anxious to preserve the learning process in the forum, a process which can all too soon die if people don’t not say WHY they like or dislike something and if challenged are prepared to defend their view.  If the learning and debating element goes from the forum then we become little better than Open (in fact worse, because the diversity of poems is lacking in CA.  Open of course has different and equally important objectives).  We need people like trevor with ability and talent prepared as he is to put in the hours it takes to thoroughly review and write about a poem, and if his enthusiasm spills over into trying to encourage other people to do the same then that in my view is to be praised.  

Challenging another critic to defend or explain their position is certainly NOT an attack of any kind upon the critic themselves.  All three of the people trev questioned had either made very vague statements or, in Melissa’s case, a very ambitious one.  It is quite wrong in my view to suggest that any one of the three might have been dishonest, but on the other hand it is absolutely legitimate in CA to wonder why, for instance, Melissa thinks that the poem showed talent “ahead of its time”.  None of us will make progress in our poetry unless we explore WHY we say what we say thoroughly.  Maree has already had a shot at answering trev’s queries, how about you Sunshine and Melissa?

One final word to Krista .. your age is entirely irrelevant.  If you feel you had a “rough time” maybe that’s a sign that you care enough about your poetry to try and write better and progress, please believe that people here want to help you do that.  IMHO you have already demonstrated a maturity way beyond many I’ve seen here, your poem did indeed to my ear have a very pleasing tone and atmosphere, and i truly hope you might post some more soon...

Anyone who hasn’t already done so might check out Brad’s thread on critiquing the critiques.

Hugs, luv, kisses etc etc to all

philip


Alwye
Moderator
Member Elite
since 1999-06-16
Posts 3850
In the space between moments
15 posted 2000-08-30 09:13 PM


Trevor,
I do guess that I see why being more specific about the kind of pain and degree of pain of the subject in my poem could make it easier to connect with.  I shall think about what I can do to fix that.

As for the matter concering Dark Angel, Sunshine, and Melissa, I think I misunderstood your questions to them.  I thought that you were questioning why they liked the poem because you felt that they shouldn't like the poem.  Now, in hind sight I realize that you were questioning them because you want to know the reasoning they had behind liking it.  

And Trevor, the reason I came to CA was to escape the "good work" responses, because I know that I have things to learn and although nice responses make one feel good (not that I don't need that from time to time, which I do, as do we all I suppose...), they do little to help me improve.  What I meant by not frequenting this forum did by no means mean that you've seen the last of me.  After having a day to think on it, you've actually inspired me to try harder and see what kind of stuff I can come up with for you to rip apart again.   You will see me, just not all the time because I enjoy open as well and I have that teen forum to moderate too.  

Philip,
Hello!  I don't believe we've met either.  I'm Krista, which you've already figured out, lol.  

Okay, to address what you've said, I am indeed here in CA because I want more than "WOW". I want to learn how to write better poetry.  

"if that’s the case you mustn’t just confine yourself to learning about the faults in the poems you attempt to write, you must try to open your mind to a wider spectrum of possibilities, and look at what you actually choose to write ABOUT. Consider your subject and theme carefully before putting pen to paper or finger to keyboard or whatever." --Ah, that is one of my problems and I am quite aware of it.  (although the reminder didn't hurt). I do need to  think more about what I want to say before I say it.  

"in picking the theme of “love” to write about you virtually guarantee failure unless you are a very very talented poet indeed.  The reason?  Well, simply that its been done a billion times before, and there’s only so many words in the English language -and most love poems scream cliche before they even get past the first line."  Yeah, I agree with you here...a new theme is probably a good idea and I shall think on that also.  


I think everything else you said I've already answered in my response to Trevor, so I'd like to thank the both of you for your responses yet again and rest assured that I will be back again.  


*Krista Knutson*

"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." -Confucious

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
16 posted 2000-08-31 01:23 AM


Hello,

Philllllip, or is that Philip with one "l"?

""SPELT" - chiefly British past and past participle of SPELL."

I did not know.....you see someone once told me that spelt was not a word....how was I to know? That's for also correcting my blundering attempt at spelling iridescent.

"hummm... i thought you lot over there were meant to be part of the Empire ... no?"

No, we are the empire!!!!  

"It is quite wrong in my view to suggest that any one of the three might have been dishonest, but on the other hand it is absolutely legitimate in CA to wonder why, for instance, Melissa thinks that the poem showed talent “ahead of its time”."

There you Brits go, trying to get all diplomatic and stuff   Actually your quite right, it was wrong of me to suggest that the three Macbeth'ian ladies j/k were lying...but on the other hand none of them defended what they said or rebutted my statements. All I was trying to do, and I think you know my undiplomatic style by now Philip, was bait them into a discussion on their views of this poem.

But I think an apology is in order so to Sunshine, Dark Angel and Mellisa I apoligize for implying that you might be lying about your feelings towards Krista's poem.

Philip, thanks for bringing that up.

"One final word to Krista .. your age is entirely irrelevant.  If you feel you had a “rough time” maybe that’s a sign that you care enough about your poetry to try and write better and progress, please believe that people here want to help you do that.  IMHO you have already demonstrated a maturity way beyond many I’ve seen here, your poem did indeed to my ear have a very pleasing tone and atmosphere, and i truly hope you might post some more soon..."

I just wanted to say that I second that statement.

Krista:

"I thought that you were questioning why they liked the poem because you felt that they shouldn't like the poem.  Now, in hind sight I realize that you were questioning them because you want to know the reasoning they had behind liking it."

Yepper. I have no problems with anyone, including myself, liking your poem. I'd love to love your poem but its just not my cup of tea. For posterity's (sp?mning?) sake I'd like to say, I don't believe that people should like the same things as I do or have the same opinions, that would truly be a boring world. When I critique I'm not trying to get anyone to like or dislike something but rather just venomously   present my feelings on a piece of writing.

One of the biggest let-downs I felt in writing was when I began to show my work roughly around a year after I started writing. I was so eager to show as many people as I could and I honestly don't think any of them said a bad word. A couple years went by and I was looking over past work and I noticed something magical....almost all my poems had turned to crap-ola. Amazing because everyone had told me I was the next Robert Frost This led me to believe that at least a good portion of the people I showedmy work to lied to me.... at least a little bit. They all couldn't have liked all my poems because honestly....they were reaaalllllly bad....I'm mean take some of the worst poems you've read and then drop it down one more notch and you'd find my early stuff...and some of my recent poems too . I felt kinda betrayed even though I realized the intent behind their back slapping comments. I didn't start showing my writing again for at least a couple years after that....so their intention was to not hurt my feelings by telling me how great my awful writing was but in the end it hurt even more because not only did I find out how bad my work was but I also felt lied to. Sorry for the long story but just thought you'd might like to know why I take a stance on honest critiquing.

"After having a day to think on it, you've actually inspired me to try harder and see what kind of stuff I can come up with for you to rip apart again."

I'm sharpening the talons as we speak Glad to hear that you'll be around.

Take care,

Trevor

    

Dark Angel
Member Patricius
since 1999-08-04
Posts 10095

17 posted 2000-08-31 07:47 AM


Can anyone of you three tell me what

"Lavender morning
dappled in dizzy swirls of
diamond sunshine
which crown your soul
in dustings of light."

....actually means????
and what it means to this poem.



Sir Trevor, may I call you Sir Trevor??????

Ok going to tell you (because you asked so nicely)   what picture this stanza paints in my mind?

Lavender Morning, describes to me an aromatic and pleasing smell of the morn, a freshness and maybe spicy scent
Marked with
dizzy swirls of diamond sunshine…. Have you watched a sunrise and see the sun sparkle it's glory, especially on the ocean. I have seen it and yes, I would describe it as diamonds sparkling. And I suppose that's how she sees his soul,
which crown your soul
in dustings of light
. ….. Possibly an Aura around him, an atmosphere.

so this stanza tells me that this persons  to her is as beautiful as lavender aroma,  it's fresh it's glorious, it sparkles like diamonds

On another note
you mentioned something about "expanding on precious" is that necessary? I mean we all know what precious means and says, or are you saying …. Not to use the word "precious" and replace it with words to give that meaning?

Well Sir Trevor, I sure hope that this is what you were looking for from me  

As far as why I like the poem?……… I have already explained that    

Look forward to another discussion with you hehehe     

Thank you,

Maree




[This message has been edited by Dark Angel (edited 08-31-2000).]

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
18 posted 2000-08-31 09:32 AM


Hello Maree,

"Sir Trevor, may I call you Sir Trevor??????"

Sure, but only if you explain to me why you'd like to call me Sir Trevor instead of just Trevor. Honestly, and maybe I'm just ultra-sensitive today or reading into this too much but that Sir Trevor comment hurt my feelings. My interpretation of it is that you at least partially think that I consider myself somehow above or more righteous, etc. than other people, which is not the truth. Perhaps you'd prefer to call me Captain Trevor or King Trevor or His Lord Majesty Trevor? Perhaps you've misinterpreted my suggestions as commands? Is there any other way you'd like to belittle my efforts at getting people to give a critical analysis in a place called "Critical Analysis"? Am I just wasting my time here?

"Ok going to tell you (because you asked so nicely)    what picture this stanza paints in my mind?

Lavender Morning, describes to me an aromatic and pleasing smell of the morn, a freshness and maybe spicy scent
Marked with
dizzy swirls of diamond sunshine…. Have you watched a sunrise and see the sun sparkle it's glory, especially on the ocean. I have seen it and yes, I would describe it as diamonds sparkling. And I suppose that's how she sees his soul,
which crown your soul
in dustings of light. ….. Possibly an Aura around him, an atmosphere.

so this stanza tells me that this persons  to her is as beautiful as lavender aroma,  it's fresh it's glorious, it sparkles like diamonds."

Thanks for taking the time to give me your interpretation of it....honestly I was having a lot of trouble figuring out how it related to the rest of the poem and could only come up with them just being pretty sounding words put in there just to sound pretty.

"On another note
you mentioned something about "expanding on precious" is that necessary? I mean we all know what precious means and says,or are you saying …. Not to use the word "precious" and replace it with words to give that meaning?
"

What I was trying to say is not to use the word precious, expand on the idea instead. "Precious one" isn't very descriptive and its been used many times.... And usually by expanding on a thought, more originality comes through and a more precise idea, image, etc. is formed. This often more effectively draws the reader into the poem. It's like when someone uses the phrase, "I love her so dearly"...well we all know what the person means but does it make it a good phrase? In my opinion no, because its extremely cliched and holds no real depth.

Why is the person precious? What does he do that makes him precious? If Krista were to answer these questions it might tell the reader that the person is precious without having to say it. Make that character precious to the reader as well. Show the reader, don't tell them what is happening in a story. Another example would be if I were to say "and I love her because of the things she has done"....obviously you understand I love her because of who she is but it would probably work better if instead of telling them that I love her, I show the things that made me love her and let the reader discover on their own that I love her.

But like I said earlier, this type of poem isn't really my fav. The theme has been done so many times and unless it's completely fresh and original it doesn't really grab my goat... but I do respect the fact that you like it and I do appreciate you taking the time to come back and go into more detail on what you thought this poem was about.

"Well Sir Trevor, I sure hope that this is what you were looking for from me"

Yes Maree, this is what I was hoping for.

"As far as why I like the poem?……… I have already explained that"

Yes and in great detail  

Thanks again, take care,

Trevor

    

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
19 posted 2000-08-31 10:08 AM


yep Trev ..you are being oversensitive, what you don't seem to realise is that these antipodean women just love to call us handsome fair skinned (you are fair skinned...? ...lol) Northern Hemisphere  lads "SIR" ... ‘specially the more intelligent ones of us.... .... I mean look at the excellent Lady K or Special K as you prefer to call her ... Sir P this Sir P that .... and do i mind ? ...nope ..  of course i don't ... and why not? .... well becoz it shows respect of course ........ er.....umm.......

it does ........................... doesn't it!!!!!!!!!!???

the pensive gullible Brit ..........

Dark Angel
Member Patricius
since 1999-08-04
Posts 10095

20 posted 2000-08-31 10:38 AM


Hello Maree,

"Sir Trevor, may I call you Sir Trevor??????"

Sure, but only if you explain to me why you'd like to call me Sir Trevor instead of just Trevor. Honestly, and maybe I'm just
ultra-sensitive today or reading into this too much but that Sir Trevor comment hurt my feelings. My interpretation of it is that you at
least partially think that I consider myself somehow above or more righteous, etc. than other people, which is not the truth. Perhaps
you'd prefer to call me Captain Trevor or King Trevor or His Lord Majesty Trevor? Perhaps you've misinterpreted my suggestions as commands? Is there any other way you'd like to belittle my efforts at getting people to give a critical analysis in a place called
"Critical Analysis"? Am I just wasting my time here?


I'd like to call you Sir Trevor or maybe even Sir T because as Sir P put it ( btw I don't call Philip Sir P, because thats Kamla's call hehe so to speak) it shows respect, and for that reason and because I like it   I did not in any way use sarcasm( just clearing that up) in case you assumed I was  

And MP....yes dear it does show respect, well it does here in Aus   you are correct again ok tell me which are you going to choose ??? the Money or the Box

oh Sir T, I don't like the sounds of ....
Captain Trevor or King Trevor or His Lord Majesty Trevor hehehe so if it is ok with you, I'll stick with Sir T or Sir Trevor   ok?

Peace

Maree  

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
21 posted 2000-08-31 01:31 PM


Also Krista I should have said thanks for your response, and look forward to your next post  

P

Dark Angel
Member Patricius
since 1999-08-04
Posts 10095

22 posted 2000-09-01 01:44 AM


Hi Sir T  

Another thing which I forgot to mention.....

I had no intention of hurting your feelings, which I have managed by the looks of things, so please, accept my apology. Like I said I had no intention of hurting your feelings.

on a lighter note..... ahem...
If you prefer I didn't call you Sir T, would Sir Trevor do?  

ok I am going to put a sock in it now  

talk to you later
Maree

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

23 posted 2000-09-01 08:44 AM


I opened this wondering why the deluge of response and now I see why!

Establishing the whys and hows of CA it seems...

lol

you guys, I have to say, all express yourselves very well...

Big hugs all round hey???

Anywho - having read the thread in its entirety (well nearly...) I see my name mentioned - well, two of them - Lady and Special K  

Trevor - you have nothing to fear...Sir Trevor is a respectful name I assure you. I might even start calling you that myself (except dear Sir P would get jealous and ~snarl~ at me...)

K

P.S - Not to ignore you Alwye...if I have time I will actually come back and comment on this...lol...



"He looked across the
silky surface of the Severn...
it was a famously difficult
river with fierce tides..."


From Jack Maggs

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
24 posted 2000-09-01 10:37 AM


Hello,

its just lil'ol'sensitive me again .

I guess my confusion on your intent of calling me Sir Trevor or the now version, Sir T lays in cultural differences. A somewhat common insult in these here parts is to sarcastically call someone Sir or Captain etc. Well I don't know if I should say its common anymore, people nowadays seem to lack flair and just go straight to the cuss words.

Anyways, sorry about misinterpreting your words and thanks for clarifying what you meant by them and the apology.

Thanks,

Trevor

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