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Maricel's Graduation [revised]
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Maricel's Graduation [revised] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
We talked about it, said I'd try, I thought Myself a busy man twelve years ago. Arrived in time to see the last few stages Of this American rite, important to be A little late, an idiot once said. I knew she wouldn't be looking for me, But I moved to the grass and searched this mesh Of suits and gowns and Sunday church dresses. I scanned and judged without a gown These brothers, sisters, parents, friends. I thought myself a better man twelve years ago. Then, the crowd parted and part of me Stopped being angry. She stood about fourteen feet away; A half-smile, a glance of leg growing Clearer as I stood and she moved In slow, confident steps. She breathed, "Hey --" Joe came at a right angle. He grabbed her And tried to kiss her, she flinched, he said, "Your parents are over here, come with me." She went. I sighed and looked at the sky, I grabbed My face, saw her best friend, hugged her instead. Your college boyfriend is so nice I would Later hear she said. A secret to most Parents with a daughter in Catholic school. Nothing more to do, I walked to my car And heard my steps on the sidewalk blocks Reverberate these pounding questions: Why not "Bye"? Time to leave? I'm bad for her? She's good for me? How'd she know where my car would be? She sat on the hood, legs crossed, hands behind her, That half-smile as she finished: "Hey you. Let's go home." [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 07-08-2000).] |
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Elyse Member
since 2000-04-16
Posts 414Apex (think raleigh) NC |
hey brad!  i liked this much. I'm big on the graduation theme of late  you really do have a thing for legs though, dont you? I liked the way you handled this, and the way you told it - all the info given, but not neccesarily in linear order. my graduation was just like that, all jumbly and people everywhere. the only thing im still confused about is the "twleve years earlier" stuff. kinda whacks out the timeframes i had figured. some 'splainin please? luv Elyse |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks for reading,Elyse. What's wrong with liking legs? Yeah, the time thing's a bit tough I guess. Basically, I'm trying to show that the significance of an event is not always recognized at the time of the event. This is a true story but, at the time, I didn't recognize all the things she was doing to be with me. I was expecting it. I guess you could say I'm trying to contrast my college arrogance with her, uh, well, magic -- but I couldn't do that if the narrator still had that college arrogance. Thus, it has to be a narrator in the future looking back and seeing the foolishness of his attitude. The only problem is I'm still a fool and still arrogant. At least I know it now. Brad |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey Brad, Thought I'd read this one again....I think the revision count is up to about five on this one isn't it I liked what you have done with the first two stanzas, especially the second one. Thought "believed in God again" was a tad cliched. "He grabbed her And tried to kiss her," Consider losing the first or second "her", it was a noticeable repetition...maybe something like, "He grabbed at and tried to kiss her." Dunno just a suggestion. Also in that same stanza consider starting a new line at "he said". "I grabbed My face," Consider using something other than grabbed, you already used it as a descrip. in the previous stanza. "Nothing more to do, I walked to my car And heard my steps on the sidewalk blocks Reverberate these pounding questions: Why not "Bye"? Time to leave? I'm bad for her? She's good for me? How'd she know where my car would be?" I can't remember exactly how you had the lead in towards the ending on the other versions but I do think I liked them a little better. The questioning part didn't flow well in my opinion or at least not vocalizing the actual questions asked. The last couple lines are still solid and from what I can remember are the same as in the other versions. All in all I still like this piece. Thanks for the read Brad. Trevor |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hey Brad, nice read. I thought the first 2 stanzas were particularly well written. I have to agree with Trevor (BTW, it's good to hear your voice again Trev) a little on "believed in God again". I don't know about the cliche but it just felt awkward reading it. Didn't seem to fit for some reason. Well, I also think "grabbed" just isn't a very good word, particularly when used twice and close together. I don't know that I have a suggestion but I'm sure you could find a substitute, that is, if you are so inclined. Also, I want to support you a little at the end here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your well known leg fixation. Don't ever change that Thanks, Pete |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Sorry, but I don't critique. I liked this one very much..it has a flavor of honesty about it.  |
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Forrest Cain Member
since 2000-04-21
Posts 306Chas.,W.V. USA |
Brad first read for me, but having been there four times I can relate. I liked the easy simply stated flow and mostly happy ending. forrest |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
all i have time for brad is to say that this stanza is very nice: "I knew she wouldn't be looking for me, But I moved to the grass and searched this mesh Of suits and gowns and Sunday church dresses." grass - mesh - dresses ... liked it .... and the image conjured up ...well done! actually i have more to say about the poem (and, as you might guess , the legs) but no time now ..later, philip [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 07-01-2000).] |
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Paula Finn Member Ascendant
since 2000-06-17
Posts 5546missouri |
Like Ms. deVine I dont critique...but I do read, and I like what you write and how you say it. It has the feel of innocent dreams |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Philip, Anxiously awaiting you further commentary. Sharon, Thanks. I know we work from different poles of the aesthetic spectrum but it's nice to know I can still engage you now and then. When I posted the first version, Nan said that poems written about true stories have an authentic feel to them. I guess you agree. Trevor, I agree about the God line. I think I'm still too attached to the old version -- this, of course, means still another rewrite but, hey, I don't have to do it today. Trevor and Pete, I'm not persuaded yet that I should get rid of grab or her. Both were intended (that doesn't mean it works). I was shooting for an emphasis of what some French thinkers now call metonymy (spacial association as opposed to metaphorical association). Grabbed twice is meant to link the speaker to Joe and her is intended to emphasize the woman as object -- still, if it doesn't work for you guys, then maybe I just screwed it up. Forrest, Thanks, my nickname in college was 'child molester' and we had a party when she turned eighteen. I have a lot of memories from this time in my life (some of which will no doubt show up in future poetry). At one point, someone asked me, "Brad, why can't you get into a normal relationship?" I don't know; I still don't know because I ended marrying a Korean. Paula, Thanks for reading. I think it's interesting that you say 'innocent' when I was actually engaged in an illegal activity (to some extent this means I got the idea across which makes me happy) but I don't encourage anyone to pursue a clandestine relationship if they can avoid it. It's very hard. But who really decides who they're going to be with? Brad PS I'll try to get back later and read some more poems but the wife has just gotten up and she's giving me that funny look that means, "you love the computer more than you love me". See ya. |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
I haven't forgotten Brad .. just been to busy to do it justice .. later (honest) p |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
brad your poems always leave me with the sense that I’m missing something... which is probably because i am! .... actually this was somewhat of an exception, although my ignorance of the “rite” (being a Brit) ..put me at a disadvantage i think.. First a more general point... i guess your poems seem almost always to be a simple recounting of an incident in the speaker’s life, or more accurately a detailed snapshot of a short period of time ... I’m not logged in so I can’t quote Titles, but i seem to recall .. a man half drunk in a room in a rainy eastern city, a man looking at a girl on a subway, the violent break up of a riot in and eastern city, sonnets about family and wifely matters, a man walking through a felled wood to a construction site, a woman beating a man in a race for a train, and now a walk into a graduation ceremony and then out again. Such simple everyday life kinda incidents, only made interesting by the story line and by the fact that the reader becomes the speaker in the sense that the reader is given sufficient information in the poem to relate closely to the speaker and to “see” the incident through his eyes...... One of the problems I’ve had with enjoying your poems is that they rely heavily on the reader being able to “enter into” the experience .. whether or not the reader then empathises with the speaker or not is immaterial .. however in order to do this the poem must be fairly readily capable of understanding .. In other words I think it is fatal to my enjoyment of the piece if the playing out of the snapshot is interrupted by obscurity of language or meaning ... this has sometimes been the case .. certainly it was with the “man in felled wood” poem and indeed there are parts of M’s Graduation which made me stumble for this reason.. Unlike say, the poems of Haze and Rox (remember her!!!) where “feelings” are what matter and obscurity is almost a given, your poems i think rely on clarity, and pleasure is derived from, amongst other things, the acute observation of minutiae and the interplay between the speaker’s mind and the experiences that are bombarding it in such a short space of time... I often look for “more” in your pieces, some universal message .. some hidden layer or clever allusion making a subsidiary point or observation .. I have to say though i rarely find it !! Now whether this is because of my shortcomings as a reader of poetry or whether simply because there is in fact nothing there ....I’m not sure ..lol... Having said that, with the hint contained in your reply on this current poem, I have managed to pick up the possibility that the poem is less about a day on a lawn, and more a commentary perhaps on the way the poet perceives his character, perception and experience has altered over the 12 year span? Certainly the first three stanzas seem to be devoted almost exclusively to a kind of denigration of the speakers mode of behaviour at that time .: “I thought myself a busy man” ........ pompous “Arrived in time to see the last stages” ......rude “An idiot once said” ........ stupidly rude and pompous “I thought myself a better man” ....... conceited “Stopped being angry” ...... impetuous and the remainder of the poem then goes on to suggest the naivety of the speaker. Bits i liked .. bits (as I say) were slightly obscure maybe and broke the flow: First the “obscure” bits: “The crowd parted and part of me stopped being angry” ... Ok .. maybe i understand the anger ..but why “part of me” ... is that merely an allusion to a “permanently angry young man”? “Part of me” bothered me..lol “Fourteen feet” ... ok ok i know you like detail but wow.... WHY fourteen feet? why not 15 feet or fourteen and a half feet ... or fourteen feet two and a half inches .... how do you KNOW it was fourteen feet ... what does it matter? ..... it distracted me because i felt that there must be some reason for it to be fourteen feet .......IS there? “Joe” ........ who is this Joe? fine ..perhaps its enough to know that he came in and grabbed M .. that makes him a rival? perhaps that’s enough. Yeah i think it is ..but see below... “A secret to most parents ...” .. i interpreted this to mean that the speaker was kept secret ... it’s hard for me to understand this... am i right? It was bordering on the obscure ...and also why if the speaker has to be secret is Joe not secret as well ....??? I’m missing something here ..i know it... something to do with college and why the speaker appears to be in a job with a car and yet is referred to as “college boyfriend” ... yup I’m missing something ? And now the bits i liked: i already said about the second stanza ... great ..loved “mesh”... “Joe came at a right angle......” I like this .. it has connotations of an interceptor fighter plane cutting in from a flank ... a flank attack.... BUT i keep reading “IN” ... “Joe came IN at a right angle.......” ..in fact i can’t read it without the “in”.......lol You have something great going with: “half smile” is to “glance” is to “leg” “Grabbed” is to “hugged” is to “face” “Steps” is to “pounding” is to “questions” if you don’t follow what i mean ..i can explain more ...LOL (running outta time here!) (And “glance of leg” was in itself a great phrase) so i liked it brad a lot thanks philip later the same day ..lol...... i just got around to reading trev's comments and your replies to the others: "I'm not persuaded yet that I should get rid of grab or her. Both were intended (that doesn't mean it works). I was shooting for an emphasis of what some French thinkers now call metonymy (spacial association as opposed to metaphorical association). Grabbed twice is meant to link the speaker to Joe and her is intended to emphasize the woman as object -- still, if it doesn't work for you guys, then maybe I just screwed it up" I meant to mention this before ... i noticed the duplicated "grabbed" and YAY !! .. it did precisely as you intended to it to do for me... as i say i meant to include it in my list of likes ... Also in itself "grabbed my face" is a pretty funny and convincing phrase ... ok that's all for now ..lol [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 07-09-2000).] |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
After you've ploughed through my wittering above there's something else: "You make a good point concerning my impressionistic reading. I was concentrating on sound and feel rather than trying to understand the whole piece. I'm looking for a tension between syntax and line breaks, between short and long words, and between the use of words and their meaning in relation to other words rather than to the whole. I've also been spending some time at other critical poetry sites (just looking for some new ideas) and find that my above critique seems to be the standard way of reading a poem in most places. I think there is some value to the writer in this type of critique but also agree that this is not the type of thing I want to encourage here -- it avoids the 'meat' and too often obscures any discussion of meaning and form together which is really what it's all about." your last phrase here says it all Brad .. I too have looked into other net poetry sites and find all too often the "impressionistic" critique .. it's lazy when practised exclusively and only partially helpful. In fact for some poems positively unhelpful, and also i often think sounds a little pretentious and arrogant ... Many poets seem to think there is something almost demeaning in seeking to probe meaning, but i firmly believe that if you want to grow as a poet this is a very necessary (often arduous) process (LOL...now I sound pompous) .. i could go on for a while about this .. but just to say that the day CA starts to become an exclusively "impressionistic arty farty forum" .....is the day i exit ..lol... and that's a promise btw not a threat ... i love this place brad .. just thought i should say thanks to all who put in the hours and hours to make it possible ...philip |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
First, thanks for the comments. I do think we have something going here that is different from the usual critical forum, and I do like to think that I had a small part to play in that. However, I'd like to thank everyone who is doing the real critiquing (and you are a big part of that). Robert Frost said that a poem always involves risk and I believe criticism involves it too -- the risk of being completely wrong, of looking like an idiot, of showing yourself. It's easy to say something is good, it's just as easy to say something is bad, but it's hard to try to explain why you feel that way. I believe that is why so many people hide behind the 'it speaks for itself' line -- it absolves them of any responsibility. I was talking to a friend of mine who had visited and art exhibition and asked the artist what a particular painting was intending to convey. The artist replied, "It speaks for itself." My friend replied, "Yeah, but in what language?" This, of course, is not always the case. Others simply do not want this type of conversation and that's fine -- there is certainly a time and a place when it's appropriate and when it's not. I don't think a wedding, for example, is a good place to discuss metric theory with the bride. As long as I'm moderator (and I believe Jim would agree with me), we will continue to encourage this 'risk' in criticism quite simply because we think it works better and is more satisfying for both the writer of such criticism and the reader. Okay, the easy part's over. Now, I've got to get to the hard stuff -- talking about my poetry. Talk to you later, Brad |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad: I liked the revised version but, if I remember correctly, there was little I disliked about the previous version. You are right ... I do agree with what you are doing here and I am 100% in agreement with you on this subject (that's right ... 100%). The slice & dice does have a place ... but if it is done I think it is important to remember that you are also slicing and dicing complete thoughts. A professor of mine in college illustrated (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) the trouble that can be caused by disregarding complete thoughts in interpreting the meaning of a line: "What you are going to do, do quickly" (John 13:27), "Judas went and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:5), "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:37). His point ... disregard the context of a line and you lose the meaning. Lose the meaning enough and you won't even have a clue. The "risk" or criticism is certainly a risk worth taking. While it is true that reading poetry is a key to better understanding poetry ... it is important to distinguish the difference between reading poetry and REALLY reading poetry. I can read most of Dylan Thomas's selected poems in a sitting but I won't even begin to have an understanding of them unless I take the time to think about what the writer was thinking at the moment the poem was written, or notice his use of alliteration and assonance, the length of syllables and the rhythm of the lines. I think taking the "risk" of criticism encourages the daring soul to discover something of the depth of poetry and appreciate it for the art form it is. I'm still finger-painting but I've read some Monet's. Thanks for bringing the subject up, Brad. Jim |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Right now all i've time for Brad is ... "I couldn't agree more", i think fear has a lot to do with why people won't say more openly about the poems they read .. i think they miss something... having said that many environments (specially on the net) are very hostile to this type of critique and the critic often ends up being ridiculed ... it's largely down to what Ron and you and jim etc etc have created here that it's possible to open up and say what we think ... some will say that this "protected environment" is "bad" .. it feel it's very refreshing and innovative ... hi jim... liked the finger painting Monet bit... when you've understood dear Dylan please tell and also if you know where i can get a copy of "The Collected Letters of DT" Dent 1985 ed Paul Ferris ...or "The Notebook Poems" Dent 1989 ed Ralph Maud ...lemme know please ta philip [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 07-11-2000).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
It's interesting that it takes a 'protected environment' to say what you think and feel, isn't it? I think part of this comes from a certain belief in language as a transparent medium and the insecurity that this belief inherently reinforces because language is never direct communication. The amazing thing is not that so many people misunderstand each other but that people actually do understand at times. But what does that have to do with my stuff? Jim has also mentioned with a poem of mine -- 'Your Body' -- that he spent some time looking for some universal truth or some deeper meaning to the piece and he was just as disappointed as you were. I'm not surprised because I usually try to avoid such things. My poems are anti-universal in that they focus on the mundane, the trivial (although often accompanied by hyperbole or fabulist imagery to accentuate how really important these things can be -- 'The Importance of Lethargy', 'My Center Cannot Hold'). What I find amazing are not universal abstractions but these trivial moments -- a girlfriend finding a car after her graduation ceremony and my inability at that time to realize how miraculous that truly was (this poem). I often try to show how we judge others and how that judgment falls apart if we apply those same standards to ourselves (some of the sonnets you mentioned, 'Knobby Knees' -- even this poem). I wrote an unsuccessful poem about a trek through the woods to a construction site to show the connection between nature and human manipulation -- that they are both part of the same thing (I've got to get back to that one. Trevor had some good ideas on how to rework it). 'Let me be with lightning' describes a moment after an argument, a moment where language and emotion fall into each other in such a way that both lose anything resembling sense -- that is, if it worked. 'In Unison' is a rant on the vacuous nature of certain phrases and the danger of not realizing that they mean nothing. I attack media in several poems but at least try to show that the media wouldn't be the media if we didn't watch it. Are you seeing the pattern yet? Contradiction, self reflection, and the gap between what people say and what people do -- that pretty much sums up my interests I guess -- at least for now. I don't think I write in a formula, I hope I don't write with a formula -- but I do try to follow certain guidelines: first, a poem has to have an epiphany, a moment, a turn, or something that makes the poem move and moves the reader. Second, no surprise here, sound is very important. I try to write a poem that it can be read aloud and read at only a slightly slower pace than regular speech (I hate spitting poems where the reverse is usually the case -- get it out as fast as you can). I use the same tricks as everybody else and am always trying to learn new ones. Third, I detest symmetry (the strength of the sonnet form is that the octet and the sestet are of differing lengths) but also believe that asymmetry must be contrasted with the potential for symmetry -- it's almost there so to speak. If you attempt to get rid of form altogether (impossible in my book) or if you try to ignore form as inconsequential , you'll find yourself writing the same thing over and over again -- I've seen people who do this (and scream individuality at the same time) at other sites. None of this means you have to like anything I write for that involves the application of these ideas and I'm still working on that. I definitely consider myself a part of the tradition that considers Hallmark an insult. If a reader responds with 'so true' or 'I can relate to this', I wonder why I bothered to write it. I am not only interested in having a reader relate to my stuff although that's part of it. I am interested in expanding the reader's mind, of showing he or she something different. I want "I never looked at it that way before" rather than "this is lovely" -- but I don't mind that too. I don't think this has to be for everyone though. For example, there used to be a person who wrote country songs and posted them at another site. I hated them, many people hated them, but he finally responded with a devastating argument -- I write catchy songs with universal themes, I make money at this. What do you do? He was right, I don't make money at this. And I think he believed in his stuff as much as I believe in mine. I have often said that modesty and writing don't mix because it takes a tremendous ego to say something like the above. A writer actually believes, indeed has to believe, that he or she can do these things before attempting them. Two more points before I close this rather long winded exercise: David Lehman relates an anecdote concerning James Tate when they were working on the Best American Poetry series together (I paraphrase): DL: So does this one go in the 'in' pile? JT: I guess so. Tentatively. Everything in my life is tentative, Dave. Well, that's not true. Sometimes I have had fiercely decisive moments in my life. But this isn't one of them. In other words, I reserve the right to change my mind on any of the above. Second, James Tate, again, said that there comes a moment when anything and everything around you becomes poetic, when a poem can literally written about anything. I agree. At least, I do today. Brad |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
k ..i have a few things to say about all this, but 'tis late here and the AOCD (automatic online cutoff device) - the wife is about to intervene so all i've got time for now is: "Second, James Tate, again, said that there comes a moment when anything and everything around you becomes poetic" i agree as well, if the moment is always back soon p |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Great mini-lecture, Brad. I will have to get back to this when I have more time ... I have a few questions. Jim |
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