»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #1
»
Have You Ever Seen Poverty?
| Critical Analysis #1 |
|
Have You Ever Seen Poverty? |
|
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania 
|
Have You Ever Seen Poverty Have you ever felt empty Helpless and weary Shivering alone in the heat of the night Have you ever seen youngsters In poverty’s corner Jumping to music in utter delight Have you ever seen sunrise Casting a shadow Onto the faces preparing for day Gathering water Gathering courage Saying a prayer that’s not easy to pray Have you ever been happy Clapping to rhythm Looking poverty straight in the face Have you ever wondered What is the answer What is the purpose for all this disgrace Have you ever uttered Phrases of beauty Something to light up the face of a child Bringing a smile Making her giggle Letting her revel in life for a while Have you ever noticed All of the young ones Floating on moonbeams that blanket the earth Stripped of inherent Innocent feelings Innocence taken the day of their birth Have you ever discovered A twelve year old child Going into the shadows to sell what he can Taken by hunger And cold desperation And men who would force him the mold of a man Have you ever waited For something to happen Down there in the darkening streets of the slum Holding a little one Tight in your arms Wondering if justice will ever be won Where is the glory Where is the honor Money flows quick to the hands of a few Here are the children Clapping to music Dancing to rhythms that I never knew Elizabeth Santos |
||
| © Copyright 2000 Elizabeth Santos - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Lizzy...you have asked some tough questions...questions people often hide from when it isn't in their scope of life. Where I live we don't see much of this. In fact here, I will admit, this kind of behaviour is viewed as the 'American curse' - though of course our society is by no means perfect!! This left me feeling rather sad and futile - which may have been two of your aims...certainly the first one! Now - you know me, I don't know what kind of critique I could possibly give you considering this is rhymed...arrrkkk! Me and rhyme! One suggestion might be to change the capitals through the verses...it may read better, let the lines flow on one to the other. Also one line that seems to jar is: 'Jumping to music in utter delight' - the utter appears a little forced - I feel the utter is unnecessary...but then maybe you need it for rhyme scheme...  Plus you use 'uttered' in your fourth verse.on the same token though I adore this line: 'And men who would force him the mold of a man' - strong stuff!! I like the questioning style of this - all of the 'have you's' - yes, a great way to involve the reader. Well done Lizzy - post a freeverse and then I will really babble on!! Hugs K 'Writing sharpens life; life enriches writing' Sylvia Plath |
||
|
haze Senior Member
since 1999-11-03
Posts 528Bethlehem, PA USA |
WOW- I have read and re-read this. Although I am not much for rhyme and poems that continue to "ask the question", I found this work remarkable. I ended up clapping a rhythm along with the words. Your final stanza (particularly the last line) delivered a message to me that went far beyond the idea of "traditional" poverty. A friend once asked me if I thought the poor people of the Rain Forest were happy. I said yes, until we tell them that they are not. Until we tell them that they must want. AH! Well-layers and layers in this discussion I understand you are addressing the modern gut wrenching scenes in city streets. Yes, it is terribly sad-But (having lived in both extremes) I can tell you that there is a freeedom in not that defies definition. This is the rhythm you have brought out to me. Thank you much. TA ~haze |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Severn, Oh, queen of free verse, nice to see you critiquing a rhyme. Thank you so much for your input. I liked your suggestion of eliminating capitals, at least some of them. I had never thought of it. But I do believe the poem would flow more smoothly in places, though this poem was meant to jump around a little , always coming back to the music and rhythms. Thank you for your comments. Liz Haze, You are amazing. I am surprised that anyone picked up the meaning of this poem so fast, the joy within the apathy, the constant rhythms, despite the suffering. The way they seem to enjoy life so much more than we who have so much. This is a description of a child's life in a Brazilian slum, where the day starts out by filling a large container of water at a community spigot and carrying it a long distance to home. And they are aware through television what wealth is out there, but that is so distant. And no matter what, there is that incessant samba beat that never stops, though you did catch my meaning of the last line. The whole poem is meant to carry a rhythm. You really surpised me. Thank you for your remarks Liz |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Liz, You underestimate yourself. I think it would be difficult to not catch your meaning, it was laid out so clearly the irony virtually dripped off. I liked the rhyme scheme and the rhythm very much. And I also like to begin lines with capitals (just a personal thing). Although it's true you asked many questions, and difficult ones at that, it is clear to me that they really aren't questions at all. They are very well posed statements, pointing out the problems, instead. I'm sure there is a name for that technique but don't know what it is. In any event, it makes one think and I think that was what you intended. Thanks for a stimulating read. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Pete, You are right, there are no question here, except the ones you ask yourself. I appreciate your reading and commenting. Thank you. Liz |
||
|
bboog Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303Valencia, California |
L~ I like the rhythm and message but the questions kinda made me think of Andy Rooney on Sixty Minutes. I don't know if you've ever watched his commentaries, but they always seem to start out with ...Have you ever wondered about? Then he goes on to talk about the subject. I think that this poem might work better if you eliminated the first line of each stanza. Except for the one that goes, "Have you ever uttered" and the very last one, "Where is the honor". Removing the questions, I think, make the piece a little more powerful by focussing the reader's attention on just a few points instead of so many. Overall though, I give you an A for effort. It's not easy to make poetry out of a topic like poverty. best regards, bboog Then again, that's just me. My wife is from Guatemala and we visited there once in the late 80's and I have seen the radiant smiles of children living amidst the poverty. [This message has been edited by bboog (edited 03-22-2000).] |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Dear bboog, Thank you for your comments. If you have been to Guatamala, then you know what this is about. Do you speak Spanish? I disagree about taking out the questions, though I didn't try to see how it would sound. I ususally write rather quickly, without forethought, and write as the thoughts come pouring out, and this one came out in question form. That's just how I was thinking at the time. I certainly didn't have Andy Rooney in mind when I wrote this, although I liked his commentaries on toothpaste and such. I suppose to some the repeated questions are boring, but this poem was meant to have rhythm and I think the repetition lends itself well to that purpose. Thanks so much for your remarks, Elizabeth Santos |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Liz, I thought this to be thought-provoking, and your poems are always so well-written...the meter, the rhyme, perfected so, that the words glide. Especially liked the contrast painted with these two lines: "In poverty’s corner Jumping to music in utter delight" Really got me thinking about how children can be happy most anywhere, as they have the innocence, playfulness, and imagination needed to not "see" the situation in which they live. When those traits are outgrown or lost, I think, is when they may come to believe they need something more than what they have (if they become aware of "what's out there"). Very nice, Liz Kris < !signature--> the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 03-21-2000).] |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Kris, Thank you for your comments regarding the rhyme and meter. I have only ever written in structured verse. Free verse is frankly much more difficult. I wish I could. Yes, they do seem happy, but often take on adult resposibilities from early childhood.Your remarks were lovely. Thank you Liz |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Liz wrote: "Kris, Thank you for your comments regarding the rhyme and meter. I have only ever written in structured verse. Free verse is frankly much more difficult." Interesting, I wonder if Jim read that!? P |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Jim read that and recognizes that free-verse is more difficult for some people to write than verse. Jim maintains that, FOR HIM, free-verse is generally easier to write than structured verse because TO HIM it is much more like writing prose, something HE has done much more often than writing poetry. Jim maintains that HIS personal opinion regarding the relative ease of writing free-verse v. verse is HIS personal opinion and is not to be construed as a blanket statement.  Yeah, Philip, always the trouble maker. Jim P.S. Elizabeth, this is a very moving poem and remarkably well written. I will try to comment at greater length a little later. [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 03-22-2000).] |
||
|
bboog Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303Valencia, California |
L~ Yes I do speak Spanish or rather try to. I'm about 90% fluent. Mi suegra vive con nosotros entonces puedo practicar con ella. In regards to writing poetry, I won a poetry contest in college when I was a freshman. Actually came in first and third and won a plaque and a book of poems. (One poem was free verse and the other was with rhyme and meter.) And the following day, I don't know why, I threw the book and plaque into the trash. Then I didn't write another poem for over 20 years. I don't know why. I guess I didn't feel like it. Only recently (a few months ago) did I start to write poetry again. I posted some poems on another web site and then moved to this one when the bickering over using curse words in poetry got to be too much. (It didn't matter to me, but some folks got really upset about it.) In any case, my suggestions to you or anyone else are only suggestions. You can take them or leave them- but at least you know I've thought about what you've written. And isn't that what you really want? best regards, bboog |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
"Jim maintains that HIS personal opinion regarding the relative ease of writing free-verse v. verse is HIS personal opinion and is not to be construed as a blanket statement" ... Jim can I translate that as "I'm sometimes wrong"? ... "troublemaker" ?! Moi ?! I'm just provoking debate .. huh .. ~sulk~ P |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
bboog, Yep, that's exactly what I want, honesty and suggestions. And I thank you for that. And I also thank you for the background on yourself. It's always interesting to know a little about the poets, and yours is an interesting story. Just imagine if you hadn't stopped writing all those years. I have a similar situation as yours, as my husband is Brazilian, unfortunately he's fighting for his life with lung cancer right now, and poetry is what keeps me on an even keel. It soothes the spirit. But I do speak Portuguese and understand some Spanish.And I have had a mother-in-law here on many occasions. But getting back to the critiquing, I do appreciate all of your comments and the time and thought you spent on my poetry. Unfortunately the written word has no intonation, and my dry humor sometimes comes off as being serious comment.(like the piranha jaws). But always know that your remarks are important to me and very welcomed. That is why I posted here. E um grande prazer em conhecer voce, como poeta e como amigo. Liz |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Elizabeth: Just for the record, I knew you were joking about the piranha jaws ... did you know I was joking about the slander thing? Just for the record, if I write anything and it sounds as though I'm offended or angry, 99 chances out of 100 I'm joking except of course when I'm dealing with ...Philip: I would never admit to being wrong ... come'on ... you know me better than that! Jim |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Jim and Philip, Free verse is difficult. Every word has to count.And eloquence counts. And intellect counts. I think a lot of poets who write free verse don't like structured verse. Is that the reason? Rhyme and meter is so easy.And it requires less effort, FOR ME. I feel more secure in a stuctured format.What I like about rhyme and meter is that the verse sounds like music. I wish I could write free verse. I love to read it, but I don't have the confidence to write. And I only posted three attempts at free verse and one attempt at prose. But I am in awe at the talent on this forum. If I read enough, perhaps I'll have the courage to write. Liz |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Jim, Just getting to know you. And I like what I know I like people who can laugh (But you know, that intonation thing can be a problem) Liz |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
And Jim throws a poison dart at Philip. But wait, Philip is quick and he ducks, picks up the dart and promptly throws it back at Jim, who is also quick, in his own right, and ducks too, then picks the dart up again and once more launches it and . . . To be continued. (Hope Trevor doesn't see those dotty thingys) Pete Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
"Just for the record, if I write anything and it sounds as though I'm offended or angry, 99 chances out of 100 I'm joking except of course when I'm dealing with ... Philip" >>> and then it's 100 chances outta 100 !! and Liz, where on earth did you get the idea that he had a sense of humour?? P |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Philip, Pete, and Jim Why do I get the feeling I'm going to be ducking water guns pretty soon? Is this normal behavior for this forum? Perhaps I should critique the dart throwing? Have fun, guys.. Liz |
||
|
redwriter1 Member
since 1999-07-22
Posts 480Franklin, TN |
I'm impressed. Very consise, well thought out. Reminds me of "And so I rise". you're making statements.. but they all. flow together in a very intricate pattern. Very good work.! (I I know.. it WAS work!.. lol) Kay-lynn **A dream is a wish your heart makes :) |
||
|
redwriter1 Member
since 1999-07-22
Posts 480Franklin, TN |
I would like to see this poem .. re-written in the first person. (just a suggestion, but it makes things more powerful).. I think sometimes as writers, it's easier for us to make up stories.. so we can keep a distance from our own pain, but .. in fact, it's the honestly of putting yourself in the story that make it that much more real, and personal. and.. well, that's the whole point of being a writer int he first place isn't it? (I know it's not easy, sometimes I catch myself doing the same thing.. and have to make myself.. ADMIT.. it's ME in the story) try it.. see what happens. )Kay-lynn **A dream is a wish your heart makes :) |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Liz, Believe me, this is very normal behavior for those three. It's as if we have a playground here, instead of the restrained, respectable atmosphere one would expect in such a forum of this caliber. I often have to scold them, and it's a difficult job keeping them on the straight and narrow. I could use some help keeping them in line....Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Kay-Lynn, Thank you for reading and commenting on this poem. You are the second person to suggest removing the questions. bboog had the same comment. I kind of like the questions, but perhaps I will try the other to see how it sounds. I like the repetition of the questions, but I'll play around with it a little. Thanks so much for your input. Liz |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Ohhhhhhh "Mistress Kris" .. soooo strict Hey Jim and Pete we never did get around to that initiation ceremony ! Later P PS "Calibre" btw Kris ..... lol Britannia Rules the Waives That should of course have been Britannia Waives the Rules .....lol [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 03-23-2000).] |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Kris, I think it's hopeless. I'm just going to dodge the water and the darts. Liz |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Elizabeth, Well, the water and darts aside, I didn't care for this one that much. The theme is valid of course but I would preferred one story in detail, one scene that shows the dirt and mud of the whole situation. Don't get me wrong, I think the concept is valid (and it's certainly along the same lines that I shoot for in my own stuff) but I think it can come through more powerfully with more detail. Also, it reminds me of, I think, Sting's song about the dancing women in Chile -- I think the repetition should have been avoided here or perhaps it should be put to music. Just an opinion, Brad |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Brad, Thanks so much for reading and commenting on this poem. I have already written the poem you speak of, with all the detail, etc. This one was meant to jump around. It's just recollections of various incidents that I recall. But I suppose that makes for a loose knit piece. I really appreciate your input. It all goes into the lesson book. Thanks Liz |
||
Mysteria 
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Well I loved the repetition of the questions as it takes it home. Not that I should ever critique, but I am inclined to agree and want to do it myself, and is eliminate some capitals in the content. I loved this poem, as I have known these people and the are happy with what they own, and unti told otherwise are happier than the wealthy more times than not. I thougth this read like a song, it had great rhythm. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, Liz, you know how I feel about your poetry but when I saw that you had posted something here, I had to take a peek!! So I'll pick this one apat and then you can take shots at mine  I agree that utter should be replaced...I would suggest childish, for example.. Innocent feelings Innocence taken the day of their birth.. ( I would say innocence repeated too closely together) I would suggest "Innocent feelings...which had been taken the day of their birth With those exceptions, my only problem is with the meter....saying that to the Queen of Meter seems ridiculous!!  But I'm afraid the syllables became a little too erratic to make the poem flow correctly.The syllable counts are as follows.... 7 7 7 6 6 7 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 6 5 10 10 9 10 10 12 11 10 7 5 6 4 5 5 6 5 6 5 5 5 5 6 4 5 10 10 10 10 10 11 10 10 Reading down, those are the syllable counts for the 6 lines of each of the 8 stanzas. For example, the third line of the sixth stanza jumps out with 12 syllables (going into the shadows to see what he can) and I think you can feel that it is an awkward line that fits poorly.."go into shadows to sell what he can" would have the right count and accents and flow much more smoothly. There aren't many deviations...just enough to throw the smoothness off a little. There are, of course, sentences where you begin with accented syllables and others unaccented but that is due to the syllable count also and would be corrected as a result. That's it, dear Liz...take it or leave it, I will still love everything you do... [This message has been edited by Balladeer (edited 09-28-2001).] |
||
|
Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Sharon, How you ever found thin, I'll never know. It goes back a ways, and I had forgotten all about it. Thank you for taking the time to critique. I know you know what this is about. Thanks for the suggestion. Liz My dear Balladeer, Thank you for your critique. In the first place, I'm not queen of anything except "Queen of the Dreamers" I'll accept that title in a minute. Now, obviously I wasn't counting syllables in this poem, according to your chart, which is accurate. I guess for this one, meter wasn't important to me. I was just thinking way back in time and revisiting pictures in my mind and trying to describe povery through pictures, not in any sociological way, but just things that happened. It's strange that I just happened to be looking at photographs I took of that place, which I haven't looked at for decades, and then this poem pops up again. It does really say what I feel, though I know it isn't a great poem. Sometimes you can get all the rhyming and meter straight, but the poem doesn't say anything. Your's, however, always have both elements. THanks again for your critique, and I'll see you at the parking meter. Liz |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
