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Madiocrity
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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Madiocrity |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash 
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Ubiquitous chitiny of lunatic clicks So persuasively did they speak The facts? The facts confuse me Don’t confuse me With the facts My mind is made A made mind A mad mind Made sophisticated mad How you, O Athenians, have been affected I cannot tell, I cannot tell So persuasively did they speak I almost forgot who I was Who I am Who am I? I know! (Mad sophisticated made) I know not? The facts confuse me Don’t confuse me With the facts My mind is made A made mind A mind made mad I know! Ubiquitous chitiny of lunatic cliques Yet hardly an uttered word of truth. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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bboog Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303Valencia, California |
Jim: I am editing this message because coming home from work today it dawned on me what you might be trying to say in this poem. "Madiocrity" is a play on the work "mediocre" and the "ubiquitious clicks" perhaps refer to the sounds of the keyboard and "cliques" at the end of the poem refer to little groups of people. In other words, often little groups of people whose minds are made up will decide what they want or what they consider proper or improper conduct. I wonder if this ever happens in poetry forums? Perhaps Athenians relates to censorship? (What is good for the public or common good) It reminds me of the story of the crabs in the bucket. When one crab is above average and wants to try and get out, the entire group at the bottom of the bucket will pull him back to the bottom. They want him or her to continue to be mediocre or ordinary. They don't want to upset the status quo, thus keeping everyone mediocre. best regards, bboog [This message has been edited by bboog (edited 03-16-2000).] |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jim Now it’s my turn......lol. First the detail of the form and individual lines. To convey the idea of disjointed thought and uncertainty, the desperation of lucidity trying to break through a barrage of aggressive persistence, I thought that you chose an excellent way of setting out the poem. The repetitions and the back to front sentences also worked very well to convey this. I’m afraid though I haven’t really bottomed the meaning, although I do wonder whether this piece hasn’t been prompted somehow by what i wrote the other day? The opening line was quite evocative for me. It recalled hot sticky nights on the shores of the Mediterranean with the scraping of the cicadas in the thick air .. used to drive me mad! The words ubiquitous, chitiny (from chitin?) and clicks all engendered the swarming insect image. Very good Jim. And while I’m with that line you again proved yourself the master of “double meanings” with “cliques” at the end of the poem ... good again! “Chitiny” btw seems to be a combination of chitin and litany ... is that what you intended? As to the overall intention of this poem, the title immediately puts me in mind of a sage philosopher being interrogated and being driven “mad” by the mediocrity of his accusers and tormentors and by the inanity of their utterances. I’m afraid that once I got this idea into my head I just tried to make the poem fit!! Exactly what I was accusing you of before .....LOL sorreeeee  .I guess I am probably wrong, but the arrest and trial of Socrates springs to mind. In 399BC, as you will know, he was arrested and tried for “corrupting the morals of Athenian youth and for religious heresies”. I’m not sure whether this interpretation quite fits with: “How you, O Athenians, have been affected I cannot tell, I cannot tell So persuasively did they speak” but as it’s all I can think of I’m going to run with it as generally it seems to work pretty well. And btw Jim if you say I’m wrong, I’m afraid that it will be pretty obvious that you’ve misinterpreted your own poem ......  bye for now Philip |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey Jim, Guess its my stab at the cat... "Ubiquitous chitiny of lunatic clicks So persuasively did they speak The facts? The facts confuse me Don’t confuse me With the facts" Excellent opening especially the first line. My interpretation of "chitiny" was chitin, as in a shelled creature or a tough covering or being covered. The first line really has a splendid flow to it and the last few lines really gives a feel of a dog chasing its tail. "My mind is made A made mind A mad mind Made sophisticated mad" I like the first three lines, again it has a circular effect but I couldn't corelate the "sophisticated mad" to anything. "How you, O Athenians, have been affected I cannot tell, I cannot tell So persuasively did they speak I almost forgot who I was Who I am Who am I?" I interpreted this part as the witch hunts of ancient Greece where if you questioned the existence of their gods you would be tried (and most likely convicted) of a crime against the gods(the name of the crime I forget) and sentenced to death. Didn't that happen to Plato? Now with that info I think you were saying oh how the believers were affected by the non-believers or another belief system and how the speaker was almost lead to question his/her faith by new information. "I know! (Mad sophisticated made) I know not? The facts confuse me Don’t confuse me With the facts My mind is made A made mind A mind made mad" Again I couldn't find solid meaning with your use of "sophisticated". Are you trying to say that every belief system is snobby towards other beliefs? Normally I frown at repetition, especially in a poem this length but I thought it did fit and worked well especially with the little subtle changes at the beginning. Also I thought in this stanza you were trying to show how the speaker's mind is slowly beginning to question their beliefs and how that is making them feel insane. "I know! Ubiquitous chitiny of lunatic cliques Yet hardly an uttered word of truth." Good solid ending which wrapped up the poem tightly. Also I interpreted this as a full circle come around type of thing. He/she once thought the crazy people were the ones against his/her faith and now he/she thinks that the crazy people were the ones he/she used to be like. Am I close? If my interpretation of it is correct than I think you did a really good job of portraying the mental burden one feels with the changing of a belief system. It's a tough thing to question the very thing you lived your life by. If my interpretation is incorrect than your poem sucked J/K. It's nice to see you experiment with formats, I think you've done a good job here in both topic and wording. Very thought provoking, thanks for the read,Trevor |
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Tony Di Bart Member
since 2000-01-26
Posts 160Toronto, Canada |
Hey Jim I have to agree with the others, in that the circular feel of the poem adds the sense of insanity...doing the same thing over and over. My mind is made A made mind A mad mind Made sophisticated mad I enjoyed this set of lines the most. It reads great and the last line Made sophisticted mad is wonderful. I like the way in which each line leads to the next. This reminds of a philospohy course that I had taken in university. Each line build on the first and then the conclusion. sort of like if a, then b, if b then c, if c then d therefore if a then D. This ties in nicely with the athenians, after all it is them that developed deductice reasoning. That's my interpretion and i'm sticking to it. Thanks Jim. |
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Ted Reynolds Member
since 1999-12-15
Posts 331 |
I can point out that "How you, O Athenians, have been affected I cannot tell, I cannot tell So persuasively did they speak I almost forgot who I was" is, as some guessed, directly quoted from Socrates' "Apology" at his trial for corrupting the youth of Athens. And that after several attempts at saying "Ubiquitous chitiny of lunatic clicks" rapidly, my tongue is temporarily in two half-hitches. Jim has pleasantly surprised me again. He'll try all sorts of things, and pull them off too. |
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Diana B Member
since 2000-03-10
Posts 97 |
"Sryed shumnovo bala, sloochaino V tryevoge miskoi sooyeti, Tyebya ya uvidei, no taina Tvoi pokrivala chyerti... Lish ochi pechalno glyadeli A golos tak divno zvuchal Kak zvuk otdalyonoi svireli, Kak morya igrauschchi val." (Tolstoy) |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well Jim, You got me with this one. It was fun to read and pretty to look at with the structure and line layouts. But I didn't understand much of it. I got a feeling of disjointed thought and circularity as mentioned by Philip and Tony and the reference to Athenians obviously is critical, but not much else. Of course, that is my shortcoming, not yours. Maybe Diana summed it up better than I can. I liked the title. At first, it just looked like a typo (or, heaven forbid, a misspelling) but, of course, it fits perfectly with the content after reading. < !signature--> Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 03-13-2000).] |
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Master Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867Boston, MA |
Well, first of all I'm not even going to try to critique this one, but I find it totally original and refreshing. Nice one! And DianaB, how about... "Otpusti mne grehi, ya ne pomnu molitv Esli hochesh stihami grihi zamoly No obyesni ya lubly ot togo shto bolit Ili eto bolit ot togo shto lubly..." (Bashlachev) |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Hello everybody: Philip, the ever-present, oppressive "scraping" effect was exactly what I was going for in the first line both in word meaning and sound. I'm glad I was successful in communicating this. You were also "spot on" in your understanding of "chitiny" to be a combination word of "chitin" and "litany". Good eye. Philip, Trevor and Ted, you were all right in spotting Socrates as being the speaker to the Athenians and Ted rightly pointed out that several of the lines are a quote from Plato's account of the "Apology [Defense] of Socrates." Pete, I don't think grasping the "Athenians" line is necessary in order to get a gist of what I am talking about here but it does, admittedly, help. I chose "sophisticated" for two reasons: (1) to provide a link to Socrates (his foes the "Sophists") and (2) to give the impression of adulterated thinking that, as a defense mechanism, ignores the facts. "The facts? The facts confuse me Don’t confuse me With the facts My mind is made A made mind A mad mind Made sophisticated mad" I intended these lines to give a visual impression of the "descent" to madness that begins with ignoring facts and clinging to absurd notions, whatever they may be (Tony, you rightly pointed out this progression). I wanted to preserve a broad applicability so I tried to stay away from specific cases. Trevor, this is why your interpretation is not incorrect. It is certainly one valid interpretation of the poem. The declaration "I know!", when affirmed in spite of the facts, represents the bottom of the pit of rational despair. Psychologically, the darkness of this "pit" of mediocrity may be comforting but, realistically, while growth can be unsettling, there is no growth or self-improvement where ignorance is justified and encouraged. I may not have done a wonderful job of explaining this so I apologize ahead of time. Again, the applicability of this one was intended to be broad even though I had specifics in mind when writing this. Nobody had it wrong here. Jim [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 03-14-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Hi Jim, I know I am late getting to this, but couldn't be helped. You did a superb job with this one, Jim ... but then you usually do. The manner in which you chose to place the words was perfect ... demonstrating thought process impairments, i.e. blocking, circumstantiality of thought, neologisms, tangential thinking (the stepped form fit this particularly well) and also a disturbance of sensorium. Word salad and punning could also be applied, but I don't think that would be accurate, as those usually reflect incomprehensible connections of thought. I feel the speaker is, being especially intelligent, able to convey his thoughts cohesively in the face of impending psychosis (he can feel it). "Yet hardly an uttered word of truth" could mean either that he still has the ability to grasp reality, or that he has fallen in to persecutory delusions. I loved this piece, Jim...and quit saying you are not adept at free verse...this piece certainly proves you are. Kris A Marrowless Assembly, Is culpabler than shame ~ Emily Dickinson |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
bboog: Just happened upon your edit. That is an excellent application of the message I was trying to get across with this one. I originally intended "clicks" to liken the voices representing continued mediocrity to the maddening scraping of certain insects but I think computer keyboard ticking works well too. Interesting. "It reminds me of the story of the crabs in the bucket. When one crab is above average and wants to try and get out, the entire group at the bottom of the bucket will pull him back to the bottom. They want him or her to continue to be mediocre or ordinary. They don't want to upset the status quo, thus keeping everyone mediocre." This is an excellent illustration of my point. Thanks for thinking about this one more. Kris: Ummm ... thanks? Seriously, this is a refreshingly different way at looking at a poem. Once I realized you were not calling me crazy (you were not call me crazy, right?) I began to see what might be the reason you and I interpret different poems the way we do. We'll have to discuss this later (I have a meeting to go to now). Thanks for the reply.Jim P.S. And this is not free-verse ... it is prose. J/K |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jimteach, I do not know a great deal about definitions of forms of writing, but what you wrote was not prosaic in its format. It was in the form of free-verse, even if the nature of the language was that of prose. The format in which a poem is written is, to me, more indicative of its type than the actual content. The placement of words, as you did with the "steps", is a common practice used in free-verse to emphasise or make a visual statement. JMHO You can tell me where I'm wrong, and I will appreciate it. Always learning....Kris A Marrowless Assembly, Is culpabler than shame ~ Emily Dickinson |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
I was just kidding Kris. Didn't you see the winky face? Jim |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jim ... Didn't even notice the "J/K" ... and then even with a "winky face", I was still not able to tell whether you were kidding or not ... an unfortunate feature of this type of communication. Now I feel like an idiot ... and, no, I was not implying you were mad. I am now (mad) ... (at myself). Later, Kris P.S. Anything stupid I've written in the last 12 hrs. or so I attribute to a major case of jet lag. < !signature-->A Marrowless Assembly, Is culpabler than shame ~ Emily Dickinson [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 03-17-2000).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Ok Jim - so I am way late here... Wow - this reminds me of Poe..a Modern kind of Poe - in theme at least! That first line - it is so cramped with syllables that it is confounding - and to me it is a great way of introducing the element of madness - like a representation of the clutter of a mad mind... Basically I am just very impressed with the intellectualising in this - I don't really write about intellectual things and it is refreshing to read them all here! K'Writing sharpens life; life enriches writing' Sylvia Plath |
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Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Jim, And now here comes the passionate poet, with not an ounce of intellect, but a lot of experience in life. I loved reading the critiques of this poem, which were way over my head, but what I did understand is that no one had the same thoughts that I had as I read it. I have lived in a military dictatorship, and I have often paused in wonder at how so many followed in the Pied Piper footsteps of Hitler. When I read your poem, it reminded me of how easy it is to follow the "lunatic cliques" out of some feeling of desperation, and how one can lose his identity in the madness of the hour and so "I almost forgot who I am, Who am I, Who am I". Lost in the repeated lies. "So persuasively they speak", and if lies are repeated long enough, they become the truth, except to the "mind that is made". So you see, one reads poetry according to his heart, his culture, or his experience, and can be interpreting the lines quite distantly from what the poet intended. Does it really matter? I think not. What matters is that your poem touched me deeply and to me , that is a powerful piece of writing. The words laid on the page in such a way as to conjure up these thoughts, and though I can't analyze them in a literary sense, I know that it is superb poetry. Liz |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Piece of advice Kris ... "If in doubt assume he's kiddin'" You'll be quite safe with that approach ..lolP |
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haze Senior Member
since 1999-11-03
Posts 528Bethlehem, PA USA |
JBouder- It's been hacked and figured to death so I'll just tell ya' FREE VERSE?! and ELUSIVE MEANING Word Play and Spinning Syllables & FORMAT *gasp* *fan* WAY BRILLIANT BROTHER WAY BRILLIANT |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Kris & Philip: "'If in doubt assume he's kiddin'' ... You'll be quite safe with that approach ... lol" Wise advice from the jester/sage. Lady K: Thanks for the Poe compliment (I enjoy much of Poe's work). Any influence you saw may have been in my attention to word sounds, especially in the first line. The hard c's, k's and qu's were intended to reinforce "clicking". Thanks for noticing. "Basically I am just very impressed with the intellectualising in this - I don't really write about intellectual things and it is refreshing to read them all here!" That's us ... just a bunch of brainiacs at play (Trevor is, by far, the smartest among us). Haze: Way thank you. See what happens when you go away for a while? Jim starts writing more free-verse! Elizabeth: Last, but not least. While writing this poem I intended to portray the frustration the "Don't confuse me with the facts" crowd cause those who see past vanity. I had specifics in mind but, again, I wanted the application to be broad. There are many false facts that people enslave themselves to but I think the emotions experienced by those trying to understand the mad willingness of people to subject themselves to blatant lies is somewhat universal (that is, the same for just about everybody). Thanks for your reply. Where are you from, btw? Jim P.S. Intellect, btw, is measured in understanding and wisdom (application of understanding). These are not disciplines that can be easily taught and, more often than not, life experiences are as valuable (if not more valuable) in teaching this than all of the writings of Plato and Aristotle. You understood and applied this poem perfectly ... I just don't see the "lack of intellect" you mentioned. [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 03-21-2000).] |
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Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
Jim, Thanks for such a detailed response to my critique. I am from Pottstown originally, but during the sixties I lived in Brazil, during the times of the death squads and the "disappeared ones", among whom were some of my dearest friends. My husband is Brazilian. Thanks again for your remarks. Elizabeth |
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