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After Lunch
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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After Lunch |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
"Resentment? Seriously, must you feel That everything relates to money, say Directly that because he's forced to kneel To make a life, our life's in disarray? Yes, I know how much he hates my fashion Taste and my family's elegance and grace. Yes, he drinks too much and has a passion For cards but doesn't have a poker face (Or so his friends have told me once or twice). You know, who do you think you really are? You work the same position for your price And others that are even more bizarre." She left her brother's wife and closed her eyes To figure out how to apologize. Note: sequel to 'Hobbies' and 'The Carpet Layer' |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Heya Brad, Looks like I'm the first one to take the blade to this..."shhhhhhriiiikkkk!"...that's the sound of me unsheathing my Katana  First off, I picked up that it was a continuation (or I suspected, wasn't sure till I read your note at the bottom) after the first few lines, and that's a good thing I think. It's nice the way you have gone from them, to him, and now to her perspectives. ""Resentment? Seriously, must you feel That everything relates to money, say Directly that because he's forced to kneel To make a life, our life's in disarray?" The only suggestion I have for this part is the doubled up use of "life". Thought it jammed up the meter, also "life's" didn't compliment (in sound) the word "disarray". "Yes, I know how much he hates my fashion Taste and my family's elegance and grace. Yes, he drinks too much and has a passion For cards but doesn't have a poker face" Excellent part of the stanza. I especially liked the poker face part....it seemed to have layers in it. Also the flow was very smooth. "(Or so his friends have told me once or twice). You know, who do you think you really are? You work the same position for your price And others that are even more bizarre." This is where I got a little confused. Now I think I get the context but the content seemed off. Are you trying to say that she is telling her sister in law that "look at yourself, your job is no better?". The last line "others that are more bizarre", I'm taking it as she works even worse jobs for the money and kisses more butt than her brother does?? Okay so maybe I'm not all that confused, just feel that you maybe you should consider an alternate line....plus bizarre sounds like she has a job as the "Bearded Lady" at the local Carnival Maybe something like: "(Or so his friends have told me once or twice). But think, do you really feel you have glory? You work the same position for your price And others that are even more boring." Ya I know it's not a perfect rhyme but I'm just trying to get the synapses firing , that is if you feel this part might need a little tweaking."She left her brother's wife and closed her eyes To figure out how to apologize." Nice ending. For me a good ending is one of the most important things in a poem. It is the last thing a reader will think of and often it is the twist tie of the poem, sealing all of it together. I also like how it leaves it open for another sequel. My guess is that you are planning another one, and since we share the same brain I'm even going to guess about it. The sister of the main male character, is going to visit her brother, and apoligizes cause she never realized how hard he works or why he works. And he says, "It's okay, no blood no foul" type of thing. Am I close or did I just walk out of my hotel room naked and without a key??? Anyways I enjoyed this poem, but I still wish you would have tackled this whole thing in a free verse....bing!...light buld went off.....Just a suggestion, but have you considered changing the format with each new perspective/section of the story? It's just I'm usually a little disappointed when sonnets are presenting subjects of depth because they are so limited by number of lines, length and rhyme. So with that in mind, I enjoyed the poem and the trilogy but it still left me wanting for a little more detail, especially about the sister, wanted to know how she "sold out"....kept thinking she was a prostitute for some reason??Well thanks for the read Brad, take care, Trevor |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Trevor, Follow your instincts on this one. She indeed labeled her sister-in-law a prostitute (don't forget the position of the husband when he works). Now, think about all the implications that would mean and I hope you get where I'm going with this thing. I suppose I'll write a few more actually -- the situation has become a gold mind for me to explore the complexities of language in relationships. I like using the sonnet format thought because it limits me to single moments instead of some overpowering narrative design. Yes, it would still work if I modified the sonnet format (and then didn't call it a sonnet) but, for now, it's kind of fun doing it this way. You may have a point about 'life'. In order for it to work for me, I have to stress the second life a lot more strongly than the first: To make' a life', our LIFE'S in dis'ar ray' Thanks, Brad |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey Brad, Was thinking about this poem a bit at work tonight and there's something I've noticed, a trend within a lot of your poetry. It's very voyeuristic, it usually has a lot of detail but sometimes it seems to lack emotional description of the events. I'm not saying it's good or bad, for some poems it works and for others it doesn't, but I was wondering if that was a conscious thing or subconscious? Now what got me thinking about it all was this poem/trilogy. I thought maybe it could have used more emotional detail. I know you're very interested in the study of language (for me it seems the more I discover about language the more I realize how little I know about it), but one of these days I'd like to see you write something just brimming with emotional detail rather than analitical flavour. One of the poems that I think you moved towards more emotional content was "Marciel's Graduation" (I think that's what it was called), it was more "that is how I felt", rather than, "that is how it happened". Am I making sense here? Cause I don't really know anymore...brain has been working a little OT lately???!!!??! : "You work the same position for a price", makes a lot more sense when you enlightened me. I wonder if I would have totally picked up on it if I had the other poems in front of me for reference? "I like using the sonnet format thought because it limits me to single moments instead of some overpowering narrative design." Both the beauty and the beast of the sonnet Maybe I'm just not keen on the sonnet because I usually suck at writing them. Maybe I should try again...see if I can crack that sonnet nut open and put out a half decent one. "Yes, it would still work if I modified the sonnet format (and then didn't call it a sonnet) but, for now, it's kind of fun doing it this way." What I meant was not just modify a sonnet but jump into a completely different format for each person's perspective. The man, free verse (he's more easy going), his wife, a sonnet (more structured), the sister, an experimental haiku style (cause she's funky???Couldn't think of a better reason why ). Now I think you're feeling its too late to turn this ship around, and maybe you're right about that but I just thought it would be interesting (though unnecessary cause its already a pretty good thing ya got going here). Originally that was what I was going to attempt with "A Father's Son, A Momma's Boy", but I found I didn't have enough characters nor "scenes" involved to really do such a thing successfully.Anyways, I look forward to seeing the direction you take with this one in your next step. Take care, Trevor |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad: I thought I'd sit back an wait a little while for others to comment but it seems that patience is not one of my virtues. "'Resentment? Seriously, must you feel That everything relates to money, say Directly that because he's forced to kneel To make a life, our life's in disarray?" A sonnet with dialogue ... I like the idea. The meter and rhyme scheme in your first four lines are right on mark. "'Yes, I know how much he hates my fashion Taste and my family's elegance and grace." You've taken some liberties with the sonnet format with Line 5. It appears to be written in trochaic pentameter. This is an unusual variation of the normally iambic meter in sonnets I have read. I've read sonnets that have substituted the first iambic foot with a trochaic foot (like what you've done in Line 6) but I can't think of any examples of the meter in a line being completely reversed. I think that feminine endings are, traditionally, the eleventh beat in a line also. Why do I suddenly get the sneaking suspicion that you planted this one here for me?  Actually, I think the trochaic pentameter comes across as more forceful than iambic pentameter and this forcefulness is very appropriate here. So, though it pains me to say so, I like the liberties you've taken here and think you choice of meter was the best to accompany the subject matter of the line."Yes, he drinks too much and has a passion For cards but doesn't have a poker face" (Or so his friends have told me once or twice). You know, who do you think you really are?" I know Line 7 is written the way it is written so that the meter is parallel with your choice in Line 5. But I don't get the same sense of indignation from the words of Line 7 as I do from Line 5. The trochaic seemed a little too forceful to me for the content of Line 7. Just my opinion. "You work the same position for your price And others that are even more bizarre.'" I actually think you ought to try for the trochaic pentameter in these lines, but suggest adding 11th syllable masculine endings to preserve your end word choices (actually an accented first syllable would be an anacrucis, right?). It seems that these lines would have been spoken as (if not more) forcefully than both Lines 5 & 7. "She left her brother's wife and closed her eyes To figure out how to apologize." I like the "snap-shot" effects your poetry evokes and I like to see you messing with sonnets. I find myself looking forward to the next chapter in the life of the carpet layer. Later. < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 02-07-2000).] |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Why do I, after reading Gym's response, feel like I know very little about sonnets GYM: DO you have a book on sonnets and/or different meter forms that you could suggest for me? I've been trying to piece together from your critique what trochaic pentameter is or where the stresses are...etc. and I can't. It would be nice to have another light to view a sonnet in. See ya Gym BouLder |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Trevour: Brad actually recommended an excellent book called "Meter in English: A Critical Approach". It is basically a bunch of English egg heads debating/discussing different issues relating to verse and free-verse. I don't have the book with me now but Brad can give you the name of the editor. I've enjoyed it emmensely (of course I AM clinically insane). A good book you should be able to find at Barnes & Noble is "Creating Poetry". The author's last name begins with a "D" I think. This has been a useful quick reference tool for me. Brad would poo-poo on this but I enjoyed reading one of Edgar Allan Poe's articles on meter. I'll try to relocate the link (it is published online) and I'll email it to you. P.S. The "BouLder" thing doesn't bother me. Most people make that mistake and I actually like "Boulder" better than "Bouder". Sorry to disappoint you. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Brad, I really like the content of this one but I feel you have really taken some liberties with the sonnet format. Unlike Jim, I just can't get the first line to flow right. I can't read it any way but re-SENT/-ment SER/-i-ous-ly MUST/ you FEEL or something like that. If there is another way, please enlighten me. I also have a similar problem with the 6th line. After reading the 5th (BTW, I don't have a problem with the trochaic line but I have been accused of butchering iambic pentameter several times here) I can't help but read the 6th as TASTE and my fam-i-ly's EL-e-gance and GRACE Again, I just can't resolve it. Finally, the last line makes me stumble a little too. I either read it as to FIG/-ure OUT/ how TO/ a-POL/-o-GIZE whereas the content seems to dictate that it be read as to FIG/-ure out HOW/ to a-POL/-o-GIZE Brad, I really liked the content and the rhyme much more than I did the rhythm meter of this one. Of course, this is just my humble opinion. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
brad-- another interesting one, i like this series you're on. this one, though, kind of eludes me. the first word poses a question, or a problem, that is only implicitly resolved, in a way; in fact, it turns out not to be so much of a problem, it seems. i read it as the sister-in-law saying, just before the sonnet opens, 'don't you resent your husband (for being a lowly carpet layer)?' or 'don't you feel resentment towards him?' the answer: 'resentment? no.' but that 'no' is never really acknowledged, and there doesn't appear to be any struggle, really, in coming up with it. i hope i am missing something here, in fact i'm almost sure i am but can't figure it out. recast for the clinically blonde (yep, that's me ), i see the sonnet as going like this:(1) do i feel resentment towards my husband because he's a low-paid carpet layer who works on his knees? [no.] why is everything always about money with you? i know how he hates my fashion sense, and my family's elegance and grace; of course, he drinks too much and is terrible at poker. [but i don't resent him.] (2) and anyway, who do you think you are? you're no better; you are (literally or figuratively) a hooker, for crissake, you get paid to work on your knees, and on your back and in a lot more bizarre positions, too. (3) now i have to figure out how to apologize to him, for all the things i said before. i guess i just don't see the connections here between these three parts, especially what the relevance of the sister-in-law's occupation is; i don't see what made the wife realize she had to apologize. it seems like the wife has already made up her mind on the question of resentment, and also on whether to apologize to her husband (she pretty much defends him and circles the wagons throughout). perhaps seeing that the sister-in-law resents or is critical of the carpet-layer, this has caused the wife to reevaluate her own attitude? but i really don't see that here, in the sonnet; it happened sometime before the sonnet opens, perhaps just before, but still it leaves the sonnet without any kind of motion or life of its own, in my opinion. one more thing, i didn't have any problem with the meter here; i don't see anything wrong with the trochaic lines 5 and 7, in fact i thought that was a nice touch. line 6 works pretty well, too, in my opinion. the last line i read "to FIGure OUT HOW to aPOLoGIZE"; i have no idea what jim would call this, but it works for me, lol. anyway, there ya go, tell me what i'm missing here please? thanks, as always, for a challenging read, lol. jenni [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 02-08-2000).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, one of the reasons I like these things is that you can take just one scene from an ongoing 'story' and let the reader fill in the details. Jenni, You're right on on the background but not on the people she's actually referring to. In 'the carpet layer' I alluded to her frustration with her husband (but maybe the problem here is that I kind of expected, assumed people would remember that). Here, she goes to lunch with her sister-in-law to complain to her about him. The sister-in-law finally asks "Do you think he resents your money?" Now, the wife finds this a ridiculous idea and immediately starts defending her husband (thereby trying to show much of the contradictory nature of her feelings). Eventually, she accuses the sister-in-law of marrying for money (the prostitute part) to her brother. She walks away from the table immediately realizing what she has done. I guess you could say I'm trying to show a "I can complain and say bad things about my hubby but no one else can" kind of thing. Personally, I see this type of reaction all the time. The vehemence in her response is a way of transferring her unconscious fear that the sister-in-law is right. Jim, I wondered what you'd say on the trochaic lines there. You may have a point on line 7 though -- perhaps I got too caught up in symmetry. Pete, 'seriously' has a secondary stress on the third syllable. 'family' should be read as two syllables -- FAMly I sweated over the last line but finally decided to go with feel here. and FIGure OUT HOW to aPOLoGIZE so there's a mid-line trochaic substitution there. What's interesting though (to me anyway) is that the 'a' of apologize almost completely disappears when I read this so I don't think I've lost much in way of rhythm here. Trevor (and Jenni), I'm not sure what to say about the emotion right now. If two people see this as too static than maybe it is too static. I was hoping, though, that the emotion comes through without actually having to say anything about emotion. I think, when it works of course, that this creates a far stronger image than just telling people what happens. Maybe I just didn't get it on this one. Nobody's perfect. Except Trevor. Brad |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
brad-- see? i told ya i was missing something, lol. actually, i thought about the possibility that the antecedent question was "does the carpet-layer resent you?" i did remember the wife's frustration with him, and the chip on his shoulder, lol. but the wife's comments, i don't think, really go to that issue, and that started me down the road to frustration. i just don't see how lines 7-9 -- "Yes, he drinks too much and has a passion for cards but doesn't have a poker face (or so his friends have told me once or twice)" -- have any bearing on how the carpet-layer feels about the wife, whether he resents her or not. the other things the wife says just previously do address that; "Yes, I know how much he hates my fashion taste and my family's elegance and grace, [but i don't think he RESENTS me for my money, honey.]" maybe those lines (7-9) could be revised to bring it home a little better? anyway, the stuff addressed to the sister-in-law make sense to me now, lol. the more i think about this, the more i'm inclined to agree with trevor that the sonnet, which really is a kind of lyric form, may not be the best form for what you're trying to accomplish. put another way, your exploration of the complexities in language in relationships is a deep theme that requires a deeper vessel to hold it. with another form (or multiple forms) you can still take the "snapshot" approach and let the reader fill in narrative details (i generally like that approach anyway), but you might be more effective outside of the sonnet cage. i agree with you, btw, about the feeling of emotion being stronger when it just comes through naturally. the sonnet form, though, with it's 14 little lines, doesn't leave much room to sketch a story, build great characters, and have those characters interact and implicitly create that emotion. on the other hand, it's an interesting experiment you've embarked on, and if anyone can do it, i bet you can, lol. thanks, jenni |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Brad, Thanks for your explanation. I'm really glad to see that I'm not the only one who sometimes "bends the rules" of sonnet writing. Maybe in time we will prevail. BTW, one must agree with Jenni that the sonnet format severly limits the ability to develop a character or theme. After all, that was not its intended purpose. But I also find it fascinating to do just what you are doing, stretching the envelope a bit. So keep it up sir. Thanks. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad: I don't have a problem with variations but I think the reasons for the variations should be good ones (effect, sound, mood, etc.). I think you are right about the "length" of the "a" syllable in apologize that immediately follows "to". Some scholars whose papers I've read (take note Jenni ... scholars say this ... Jim is NOT making this stuff up) might describe "to a-POL-" as a bastard iambus. The only problem this presents for me is that your line becomes a syllable short. Something like: "To FIG- / -ure OUT / a WAY / to a-POL/ o - GIZE" I don't see what you did here as bending the rules (with the possible minor exception of Line 7) but, rather, I think you have worked within the rules, using acceptible conventional variants well. Just my opinion. Nice work on this. I disagree with Jenni and Trevor that a free-verse format would be better suited for this type of poem. The short, compact sonnet format is a perfect medium for these little shap-shots into the carpet layer's life. Free-verse would be easier to write so where, I ask, is the fun in that? < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 02-09-2000).] |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
jim-- a "bastard iambus" now, huh? seems to be alot of bastards around these days, lol. i'll add it to the list of "jim bouder's acceptable variations." and what is this about free verse being "easy"? since when is writing in any format about a complex theme in an interesting, thought-provoking, and beautiful way easy? lol your comment reads like one scoffing at someone who climbed mt. everest: "yeah, but try doing that with a piano on your back." jenni [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 02-09-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Jenni: LOL. You're not going to bait me in with such an obvious Straw Man argument . "E-A-S-I-E-R", Madam Prosecutrix, spells "easier" NOT "easy". The word "easier" at the very least implies a comparison (the sonnet being free-verse's comparison in this case). Free-verse allows the poet to relax some measure of attention to detail (metrical rhythm, rhyme and, in the case of a sonnet, a thematic turn after Line 8). Free-verse, therefore, would be an EASIER (take note, Jenni, "E-A-S-I-E-R") endeaver for my esteemed colleague to undertake when compared to his chosen, Shakespearean Sonnet format.Your Honor, I hereby move for a directed verdict on the grounds that the lady Prosecutrix has failed to establish her case. Besides ... if some DID climb Mount Everest with a piano on his (or her) back THAT would be a story. Thanks Jenni. I needed that. Jim |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Brad sorry about this, I stumbled upon a debate between Jim and Jenni and that’s why I'm "replying to your poem" but while I'm here I might as well say I liked the complexity and ingenuity, and everyone else has said everything else that I would have said. Jim did I hear you say that you thought that free verse was "easier" to write than "sonnets" ...? Someone recently told me that Frost it was I think said that structured poetry was to free verse what tennis played with a net is to tennis without a net. Perhaps it would be even more accurate to say free verse is like tennis without a net OR court markings. As you rightly state: "Free-verse allows the poet to relax some measure of attention to detail (metrical rhythm, rhyme and, in the case of a sonnet, a thematic turn after Line 8)." I think before we go any further with the argument we have to agree that what we are talking about here is "good" free verse and "good" sonnet writing. In other words poetry that pays more than just lip service to "the rules". Next we have to agree what we mean by "good". And seeing as you seem to be intoxicated by legal terminology "I would submit" that for the purposes of this discussion "good" should be something that appeals to as wide and broad an audience as possible ie both academics (scholars) through to the man in the street. Provided you accept the above premises I really find it quite difficult to understand why you should suppose that free verse is any easier to write than the sonnet form. You may argue that the form of the sonnet is so closely prescribed as to make it difficult to write well within those limits ... I would argue the exact opposite, viz that the strict pattern laid out for the sonneteer is rather akin to painting by numbers and shapes. The artist, however unskilled, can hardly go too far wrong and provided he keeps to the guides will produce something half tolerable. Conversely tennis without court markings could and would be chaotic .. the freeing of all guidelines and barriers enables all but the most skilled and inventive to produce mediocre and even ludicrous work. Fine, a poem may strictly be “free verse”, but is it likely that such verse selected at random could come anywhere near to competing with a sonnet, also randomly selected in terms of popularity/ “goodness” ...... I think not ............ Philip PS Hey maybe you should be careful what you say in reply to this Jim .. don't forget you're in the free verse workshop this month and i have my ink pellet at the ready [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 02-09-2000).] |
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sirreen Junior Member
since 2000-01-16
Posts 19OR, USA |
I like this poem! Alot! I don't teach or study poetry, I write it. I won't try to analyze your piece line by line, but I will say this--it is damn good poetry. Thank you for the read. sirreen |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
philip-- that "someone," you may recall, said she read that frost described free verse as "tennis with the net down." got the quote now? jim-- yes, if someone climbed everest with a piano on his (or her) back, that would be quite a story, but he or she couldn't play much beautiful music on it up there without getting frostbite, and the piano would almost certainly be out of tune from the experience. and, i don't know, even in comparative terms, i don't think writing free verse is even any easIER than writing a sonnet, the challenges are just different, that's all. yes, the poet may relax some attention to SOME details, but other details, other challenges, rise in their place. motion for directed verdict denied. lol jenni |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Oh and another thing Jim lad, before you reply I think you should read this, from the most eminent prof. of them all :"...... Jim thinks free verse is easy but it's only as easy as the writer decides to make it. It's completely up to you to decide what is wrong and right and why. Think of it this way: It's twilight. You are alone, naked, standing outside in a brisk, freezing wind, you have no past and no future and a pen in your hand. Your goal is to write something other people like AND will say that it's original but you have no standards to follow and nothing to fall back on." ... oh sooooo wise .... P |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
FOUL! FOUL! I'M BEING MOBBED BY STRAW-MEN!! I NEVER SAID WRITING FREE-VERSE IS EASY!!! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!! In my own experience (and I think yours too, Philip) writing a sonnet or a sestina on a given subject has been much more difficult than trying to write about the same subject in free-verse. Would the chess piece you wrote have been EASIER to write if you were not shackled to the sestina format? If I've committed a secundum quid here, I apologize (so uncharacteristically illogical of me ) but I don't think I have.These analogy arguments, by the way, are unproductive in helping anyone reach a decision. Think of it this way: You are standing at the penalty kick line in front of a soccer goal (naked or clothed, at your pleasure) and the goalie has been removed from the game. But NOW kicking the goal is as hard as it was WITH the goalie because now you have to decide which part of the goal at which to aim your kick. Right? Of course not. It's still possible to miss the goal (free doesn't equal good) but it's a heckova lot easier. My point is that an analogy can be communicated in any number of ways to voice support for a position without even touching the subject. This might be influential but is it wisdom? (No offense, Brad ... I know you have thought this out much more than I have ... I'm just trying to catch up). The best way to get at the answer is to ask people who have written sonnets, sestinas and villanelles (and other structured poetry) (1) how much effort it took and (2) if they were as likely to sink as much effort into a piece of free-verse on the same subject. Some may end up agreeing with you and others with me but it will be a result of personal experience rather than who told the most clever analogy. See ... ya had to go and lure me into a debate. And Jenni, btw, a Prosecutrix cannot deny a Defendant's motion for a directed verdict. Where did you go to law school?  Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Jim, Okay, you got me going on this one. FOUL! FOUL! I'M BEING MOBBED BY STRAW-MEN!! I NEVER SAID WRITING FREE-VERSE IS EASY!!! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!! --I knew I was going to push your buttons on that one. Nevertheless, your argument is that we are misrepresenting your argument but 'easy' and 'difficult' are comparative by definition. You may have been more specific in your word choice but I, and everybody else I think, knew what we were saying by implication. The context was clear. If anybody misunderstood what I said -- perhaps thinking that 'free verse' is easier than say, oh, I don't know, boiling an egg, I sincerely apologize. In my own experience (and I think yours too, Philip) writing a sonnet or a sestina on a given subject has been much more difficult than trying to write about the same subject in free-verse. --You're assuming premises that I was actually trying to dislodge with my comments in the workshop. I was making a case that 'free verse' can be far more difficult than structured stuff. I was trying to make you look at free verse differently. Here, you are assuming that the term is self-evident (something, you yourself have pointed out is not so on occasion), I argue that it is not. Would the chess piece you wrote have been EASIER to write if you were not shackled to the sestina format? If I've committed a secundum quid here, I apologize (so uncharacteristically illogical of me ) but I don't think I have. --Who knows? It would be a different poem though. If he followed my premises, he would have to research chess in poetry to see what had already been done, examine his own inner priorities, be aware of subliminal influence of his own culture, and make the attempt at writing something original. These analogy arguments, by the way, are unproductive in helping anyone reach a decision. --How so? They are unproductive in reaching the one proper and correct decision but not in trying to see things in different and unusual ways (again, I refer to Ezra Pound -- make it new.). Think of it this way: You are standing at the penalty kick line in front of a soccer goal (naked or clothed, at your pleasure) and the goalie has been removed from the game. But NOW kicking the goal is as hard as it was WITH the goalie because now you have to decide which part of the goal at which to aim your kick. Right? Of course not. It's still possible to miss the goal (free doesn't equal good) but it's a heckova lot easier. --I disagree. By using the term soccer, you've already made assumptions about the 'goal' and at least certain rules. Free verse can be (but doesn't have to be) seen as inventing a whole new game everytime. My point is that an analogy can be communicated in any number of ways to voice support for a position without even touching the subject. --Yes, it can. This might be influential but is it wisdom? (No offense, Brad ... I know you have thought this out much more than I have ... I'm just trying to catch up). --How do you define wisdom? If you realize what I'm trying to get across here (perhaps I'm just not doing this very well ), how does 'wisdom' influence the creation of the truly new?--Jim, why would I take offense at people who disagree with me. It helps me to learn and see things in new and interesting ways. That's what I want, at least partially, from poetry and poetic discussions. The best way to get at the answer is to ask people who have written sonnets, sestinas and villanelles (and other structured poetry) (1) how much effort it took and (2) if they were as likely to sink as much effort into a piece of free-verse on the same subject. --so the majority is always right? There's a latin term for this fallacy but I forgot and I'm not going to look it up. Some may end up agreeing with you and others with me but it will be a result of personal experience rather than who told the most clever analogy. --this is an everybody's right argument but does such thinking help or hinder personal growth (or perhaps expansion is a better term). Again, I am trying to point out a different premise with which to see free verse. See ... ya had to go and lure me into a debate. And Jenni, btw, a Prosecutrix cannot deny a Defendant's motion for a directed verdict. --Depends on the legal system both of you have decided to agree to. Anybody for tennis, Brad [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 02-11-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
LOL. I think the term you are looking for is Argumentum ad Vercundiam. Brad, the reason I didn't want to be lured into a detailed debate on this is because my thoughts on the subject are still in the formative stages. I was merely speaking from my own experiences. I've written a sestina that took me over 10 solid hours to write and I've written free-verse of similar length in 5% of the time. Now I've also written free-verse (like the Kamikaze piece) that took a much longer time because of research and what-not. I just don't think most people put all that much time into their poetry ... free-verse or not. But for now, let's put this debate on hold until I have a chance to research the subject a bit, deal? Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Sure. You do the work and I get the benefit. Sounds good to me. |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
jim-- my experience has been exactly the opposite. the sonnet i wrote a little while back, "the quill", took me about an hour, an hour and fifteen minutes if you count the time i spent on the post to jerome's poem (where i initially got the idea). i wrote another poem and posted it out here a while back, called "sunset", coincidentally a 14-line poem (it just turned out that way), in free verse, and it took me WEEKS. the sonnet was way easier to write, in part because for alot of it, i could work out the rhymes first and then work 'backwards' to get the lines right, and in part because the structure dictated exactly how long i had to dwell on something before moving on (gotta be done with the first part by line 8, make some kind of 'turn' around line 9, be essentially done by line 12, then add a snappy couplet). "sunset," on the other hand, was alot more difficult, because there was simply nothing like that to guide me. like i said, it just happened to turn out to be 14 lines, just like a sonnet, but it went everywhere from 10 lines to more than 20 at different times. and i'm still working on it (yeah, it needs alot of work, lol). granted, the subject matter was a little different from the quill, but even "the shark tank", another piece i wrote, 12 very short lines of free verse, took me longer than "the quill." i'm not holding up either "sunset" or "the quill" as any kind of great poetry; my point is simply that you can't say writing free verse is easier than writing in a structured format like a sonnet. i'm not saying sonnets are easier, either; it just depends on what you're trying to say. i agree with brad here; if philip had written his chess poem not as a sestina but as something else, it would be a different poem entirely, and who knows how long it would have taken him? some of the greatest poetry we have in the english language is written in free verse, and i think you do it disservice to say it's "easier" than the structured stuff. and if you'll read carefully, i didn't deny your "motion," but was merely passing along the judge's ruling, lol. ok, i'll shut up now, lol. jenni |
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