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A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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simply posted for thought |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296
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Think About It This is a real eye opener. We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of America's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the name of Victor Davis Hansen talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream. Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'" "Here is how they do it," Lamm said: "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy. Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans." Lamm went on: "Second, to destroy America, invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. Make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal, that there are no cultural differences. Make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds." "Third, we could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity." As Benjamin Schwarz said, in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment, might have been achieved, not by tolerance, but by hegemony (domination). Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentricity (a belief in or assumption of the superiority of your own social or cultural group) and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism (the existence of groups with different ethnic, religious, or political backgrounds within one society) to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America, enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities." "Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group (human population) the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic (hostile) to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school." "My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity (cultural characteristic), and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' (the study of Victims in Criminal Investigations) I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population." "My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. (Western ROME) "E. Pluribus Unum" --From many, one. (Constantinople was the Eastern part of ROME (Muslums)) In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America as surely as Kosovo." (It will be run by poles/by grouping minorities, who end up fighting for the same power…they want to have the power to express their culture, hence you force the groups to argue with each other which break down laws and law and order) therefore depleting the constitution, hence, no longer recognizing the basis on which the U.S. was founded on. "Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. (Politically Correct) Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' (fear or hate of ethentic) halt discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them." In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Davis Hansen's book "Mexifornia." His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book." There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery" and "Ignorance is strength." Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream. If you care for and love our country as I do, take the time to pass this on just as I did for you. NOTHING is going to happen if you don't. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Sigh. When America eventually ends, as all things seemingly must, I suspect the certain survivors will be the cockroaches and bigots. They both appear to be impervious to everything thrown at them.  |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Okay, I've thought about it. I think it's much more furtive than it is made out to be. First -- grammar is destroyed -- simple things like the failure to distinguish between words like thier, they're, and there. Whole new languages are supplanted that SEEM to be English -- but full of slang terms designed to shibboleth out the 'older' generation. Music is subverted by base, carnal, rhythmic patterns that drive our children into a sub-cultural frenzy. Fashion is up-ended -- so that our youth hardly even look human any more let alone Protestant!  Does Orkin have Xenocides? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
ok, I forgot to write, if you don't agree with this...please explain why... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: What American dream are you talking about? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
awww, you guys, see I knew you were going to do that... Rebel, you ARE a hoot....  Ron, thanks...I always know I can count on ya...  Brad...what the heck,  I'll never tellOk, I'll just slip back into this cold and dark place that my mind lives in...  I thought it was interesting, even if you guys don't, wull, regardless...ahhh heck, I still luv you guys.... thanks, I think? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. My parents were Polish immigrants, slaves under Hitler, I was born in Germany. They were no part of a conspiracy; I, facing death or worst which was openly predicted, served my chosen country in war. When your red blooded born here wave the flag while sitting on the sofa American can show more I and other immigrants like me will stand down. . |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Lee, I read that same article, I think. The guy has his points. I'm glad to see everyone is keeping their sense of humor about all the changes which are beginning to manifest...just waiting to hear from the Canadians about the North American Union and also the impact Free Trade has made.  |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
This thread or email or whatever it is you posted is so ridiculous, it should be self-evident why I disagree with it. I think that's why all the answers you are getting are pretty much one-liners. I think it's a waste of my time to argue with this kind of racism and bigotry. It's why I just shrug when my father starts in about "those people." Not worth it. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I disagree wholeheartedly!!!! Ron! Cockroaches are NOT impervious to ME!  What is self-evident, Hush, is your condemnation of the speech. Much easier to just label something as ridiculous and comment that you refuse to comment, I suppose. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Bunk. Pure bunk. Been to California lately? Damn nice state. They have their share of probs just like the rest of us, but they're not Sudan, are they. Good grief, people. What's it going to take to STOP being bilingual, in the sense that we stop talking trash and start talking sense. In my opinion, this is what happens when people start feeling like they're missing out on something or their comfort zones are being imposed upon. The American Dream is supposed to be about Opportunity: Making something happen from nothing. Establishing one's self despite the challenges and the hardships. Banking on a thought, a skill, a trade. And having the ability to pass it on to one's children, the dog, or blowing every damn dime on a one way flight to the moon if one wants. If people feel their opportunities have been crushed by a band of foreign gypsies, maybe they should have invested more in themselves, in order to secure a better opportunity, such as education or training. Or maybe they shouldn't have taken their chances for granted. I refuse to believe or support any evidence that a foreign language or a different culture could stop "The Little Engine that Could." My momma rocked me to sleep at night, reading me that book, and sang me Bluegrass/Irish lullabies. No one can take those moments away from me. America was built by immigrants. Fear will destroy it. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. - Dick Lamm America was built by immigrants. Fear will destroy it. - rwood. You are falling into the same trap again, Regina. You speak of the immigrants who built America and he, and others, speak of the illegal ones who climb fences and dig tunnels to get in. Don't you see that there's a difference???? Do you think illegal immigrants sneak in because of their love for America?...or is it more likely they know it's a cash cow, a place where they can make more money that ever before and send it back to their families? I don't fault them for that but where is their allegiance? When legal immigrants receive their papers, they recite the Pledge of Allegiance....pledging allegiance to the flag and to the United States of America. Do they all mean it? Who knows but at least they recite it and were respectful enough of our laws to obtain their residency legally. Where is the illegal's allegiance? If the time of crisis came where America had to stand up and all Americans do their part to defend their country and way of life, would the illegals stand up also or would it be a "hasta la vista, baby" on their way outta here? Yes, Regina, America IS about opportunity. One could say there is plenty of opportunity for criminals to rob banks, too....does that make it right? I refuse to believe or support any evidence that a foreign language or a different culture could stop "The Little Engine that Could." Whether you refuse to believe it or not doesn't change it. I suggest you read The rise and Fall of the Roman Empire and see if your mind changes or not. The facts presented there also apply to every known "empire" that rose and fell. The United States will be no different. Fortunately, I don't think we will be around to see it. If people feel their opportunities have been crushed by a band of foreign gypsies, Interesting comparison. Let's ask the Italians how they felt about gypsies, or any of the other European nations that hunted them down and expelled them. Why? Because they were only takers who had no allegiance or feelings other than taking advantage of the countries for what they could take away. Perhaps you could have suggest to these countries that they should have invested more in education and training....but not to their faces and not from a close proximity. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
A country's fate is in the hand of its government. If the bloody fighting of civil war did not destroy our country then how does a tiny amount of illegal immigrants ruin the land of free? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
being for legal immigration doesn't make you a bigot or racist. There are gobs of people in Calif. now...and they say, it is theres, they are taking back Calif. which we at one time took from them, and they are stating the same thing about Texas....and they are illegals..made up of mostly Mexicans but also, Russina, Hatian, and other nationalities. Which are forming gangs and fighting over territory. I have no problem with anyone who wants to live here, but I do have a problem with people pouring into this country through unprotected boarders especially since 911, who are undocumented and unaccounted for. And yes, been to California...its changed extremely...all bilingual...oh yes indeed we come from a group of people who were immigrants, but they respected this lands laws and learned the language. I know a gal who is Russian...she has been here only 3 months...her English is better then all the Mexicans in her English class who have been here 3 - 5 years....your talking about a people who just does not care. We must adapt to their way of thinking? Try going to any other country and getting away with that...are you going to call them racists to? Because they don't adhear to your way of thinking. And I believe what you all fail to see is the fact that most of what this Lamm said, has happened already. Is he a bigot, or racist, I don't know, but my point is, illegal, means against the law, and once you start chipping away at the laws utter chaos begins. Our country cannot take the social deterroration and the ripple effect of what this is causing. I have a girlfriend, she came to this country from Thialand, learned the language, worked and put herself through college all legally and is now proud to be an American... Bigots???? I have never been biased against another nationality in my life...but this, this is not good...and shows just how above the law people believe they are...no respect for the law...that is what worries me, more so then the people themselves... I am not a cock roach neither am I a bigot or racist...but areas of Calif. are shutting down, and the people living there, in those areas have had to suffer for it. My aunt for one...immigrants go to the hospital for colds, flus, anything that ails them...they can't afford to pay for medical care....unfortunately 3 hospitals during the time of my aunts illness were forced to shut down completely. My aunt was old...and by the time they realized she had a malignant brain tumor, she was gone. The doctors stated, if she had received the right care, in the beginning, when it first started happening, she might have had a chance. I feel badly that illegal immigrants have had to live the lives they lived...but I also know, that I wouldn't go to another country and expect everything given to me... In the same, there are people here in the U.S. who should be ashamed of themselves for hiring them all these years to make more money and pay cheaper wages...cause in my mind, they've been treated like slaves. In the same 10 million people and counting, is going to restructure a lot of our country. And what this man Lamm said, has already happened. You have no idea what your doing to this country by allowing this...none? The repercussions will be devestating...it simply hasn't reached your doorsteps yet...not to the point of taking over your communites. Take a trip to Arizona, southern Texas or southern Calif. and talk to those communities...find out the real story about what is going on...what they're communities have lost...why, b/c people think that they are above the law. and yes, we were all illegals years ago, but we came together under one nation and set up laws to be abided by, including the Constitution... Many have fought wars since then, and lost their lives for what we have. And this all started many years ago...b/c we wanted cheap labor... You want your grass mowed, your windows washed, or work done around your home, hire an illegal immigrant, it will be cheaper and they are good hard workers but... its still wrong....it's against the law...regardless....and you can't bend laws to suit everyones problems....when you do, it is and will be your nation's demise and weakness. Regina, I'm sorry that you are upset...but Deer is absolutely right....and the minute people come out and try and explain what is happening b/c of this, they are called racists and bigots...????? RE read what Lamm said...it is politically inncorrect, and yet, it's ok to come into this country illegally, drain it's resourses and not contribute a cent to this nation. That is like you opening up your doors to me, a stranger and saying, come on in...and take everything I've worked so hard for...and leave nothing in return...when you have people working against each other and not with each other, you will have big problems when they begin to colonize. I am genuinally afraid of what is happening here... Ron, I'm very sorry you have to resort to calling me a cockroach...Reb...you guys are very smart great guys, but when you disagree with someone you can really be very rude and degrading...it's not about racisum, it is about obeying the law that is on the books...about illegal immigration...who else is filtering through Mexico and all our northern boarders? This is an issue that needs to be discussed, in a mature and very serious way...this is something we could all learn from...maybe? Sheesh...to get angry and call each other names is pretty kindergarden? I agree, there are people who hate these immigrants which is very sad...but there is another side to this that you completely ignore...the word illegal. That is not being a bigot or racist...not in the least...it's a word that people who are not white use to win their case/argument/or even when they break the law. and I for one, am not a racist. I simply wanted to discuss this...rationally, maturely. I'm sorry I posted this...I really didn't expect this. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Wow, Mike. I'll bet Ayn Rand was turning over in her grave as you wrote those words. An appeal to unselfish allegiance from you? That's always a good way to get people to do what you want. quote: Did we read the same book, Mike? The Rise of the Empire was due in no small part to traditions and policies that supported the very things Lee is condemning. Rome accepted the diversity of its territories and never forced people to change language, culture or religion. Through most of its long history, Rome was bilingual, too, teaching both Latin and Greek in their schools. The Empire didn't fall from embracing diversity, but rather from wallowing in fear and hate. quote: No, Lee, it doesn't. quote: That, however, certainly does make you a bigot. And, frankly, YOUR English in that statement is deplorable. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
How does that make me a bigot? If I move to another country and I want to become part of the community...why would I wait 3 - 5 years to study. I'm mearly making a truthful statement....there are 13 Mexicans in her class Ron...they have lived here between 3 - 5 years...she's lived here 3 months...why does she speak better...and why can't she understand them.... and why, when we are discussing an issue, to prove a point you must become insulting and rude? Does my opinion offend you that much? If I'm wrong Ron, then lets talk about it and prove me wrong but in a decent way and lets discuss it and try to teach me your point of view. We might learn something from each other? You, Reb and the others have some very good points of view, but getting nasty and calling each other names is not going to get us anywhere and I'm here to learn...not to argue or insult anyone...I sincerely would like to discuss these issues....and by the way, if you haven't noticed, I can't spell either...and I apologize, THAT was a typo.... |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
I think most of you have ignored all the points the writer has made and focused on the language issue -- there were many more points made. A Texas resident myself, I will tell you that every legal Hispanic/American I know is opposed to illegal immigration. I am not ashamed to say that I oppose illegal immigration either -- that does not make me a bigot to oppose the idea of people disregarding our borders and laws! If people want their kids in our schools and work in our fields and factories, then they should respect the laws of the land. I think it's pretty much a moot point anyhow because in a few years, this will not be the U.S. of A. This will be the North American Union if everything goes the way those in power would hope. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hey Iliana good to see you, it's been a while Iliana, can you explain what you mean by this... quote: thanks |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
An appeal to unselfish allegiance? I have no idea what that means or the reference to Ayn Rand....of course I accept that there are worlds of things I have no idea of, either. Selfish allegiance would describe my thoughts much better...and also be in line with Ms. Rand.If we read the same book, Ron, we did so with different eyes. I was referencing Rome itself, not it's territories. The territories were conquered lands. Rome itself took in a large amount of 'refugees' from other lands. Imports of cheap food, especially from the graneries of North Africa, as well as the growth of large estates run by slave labor now dominated the markets and created mass rural unemployment. Migration into Rome also resulted in a large urban proletariat which was hungry, often unemployed..... Rome was fractured into sections of different cultures and factions with little allegiance to Rome, driven there only by necessity. When it came time for Rome to defend itself, there were few to stand up. None of this rhetoric deals with the simple issue, though, that illegal immigrants are, well, ILLEGAL. People want secure borders and an allowance of illegal entrants into the country. Diversity made Rome great and, ultimately, killed it. Diversity has made the United States great......stand by for further news. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Lee, here are some links: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Security_and_Prosperity_Partnership_ of_North_America http://video.google.com/video play?docid=-7414624623426287413&q=Prosperity+%26+Security+Program&total=40&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2 Lee, I suggest you google the "Security & Prosperity Partnership" -- then read everything you can. So few people are aware of what is going on. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: No, Iiliana, it certainly doesn't. However, if your opposition is based on the notion that those people are less than you any way, such as Lee's blanket characterization of people "who just don't care," then I think you're standing on pretty shaky ground. Some folk are against immigrants of any kind, apparently like Mike (since he's arguing that Rome's legal immigrants were a bad thing), some folk are against illegal immigrants (even those, like myself, who think the laws need to be changed), and some folk sadly are just plain against people of different color and culture. The latter, which include most of the arguments in Lee's original post, are blatant and frankly offensive instances of bigotry. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I don’t think anyone here is a bigot or a racist; it seems to me that the real issue is that these incomers are illegal and has nothing whatsoever to do with their ethnicity. I’m sure that if the law was changed overnight to make the illegal immigrants legal this whole issue would disappear and everyone would unite as happy Americans. Or would they? Perhaps I’m wrong, maybe people just don’t want an influx of immigrants, legal or illegal, that don’t speak the same language or come from a similar cultural background. If that’s the case Richard D. Lamm could have shortened his monologue somewhat by simply saying,” we don’t want any foreigners in America,” instead of clouding the issue with fudged statements. Take this for instance: quote: Apart from being factually incorrect Lamm seems to ignore the obvious conclusion that this statement suggests. Lamm believes that the problem lies in the languages and cultural differences, that they are the cause of the demise of the nation but that isn’t true. Any nation that didn’t survive was destroyed by the tension, conflict and antagonism not the difference in language and culture and the root of that tension, conflict and antagonism can’t be called anything but racism. Without the catalyst of racism there would be no tension or conflict in fact any nation that didn’t display racist traits would survive. Lamm could just as easily, and with more honesty, have said: no racist nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. Lamm can keep all his methods of destroying America, he doesn’t need them, all he needs to do is to create a racist nation and oddly enough he seems to be doing a half decent job of it. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Let me try this one again. Immigration patterns are strikingly similar. The first generation tends not to assimilate very well, but by the third generation full assimilation almost always takes place. Almost always because there has been one exception in American history. Gee, guess who that group might be. No, they're not from Mexico. There is an issue here but I don't think immigration as such (Something, even you, Lee, seem to skip over), it's that the sheer number of immigrants in the last forty years have strained the system. I don't know if this is true, I don't think California is a valid example of a place under that strain (I didn't see it, I was there four months ago. Hell, around seventy years ago the problems were with Okies.), but it's the only issue that makes sense if one looks at the history of immigration. Or, it's the only one that makes sense to me. But perhaps the real concern here is not Mexifornia but Californication. (nod to Peppers) |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Ron, how can you say that, in the original post those things are and have already happened...it isn't against the people but what is being allowed to happen. Yanno, Ron, I told my son once, cuz the subject came up...I have never slapped you across the face b/c I don't believe in it, and I respect you, but if I ever hear you say the N word, your mouth, will in fact suffer the pain of my hand. As soon as someone tries to give their opinion, about and against illegal immigration....they are called a bigot, a racist...but that doesn't cut the issue... I don't mind being challenged...but I do mind be labeled something I am not.... What is going on, is unfortunately against the law.... you can opt to change the laws, but the laws in effect at this present time are to be respected and honored. My worry is that...and I am genuinly worried...you can't let millions of people into your home and expect not to have severe ripples which will effect you in a bad way...sometimes we have to do what is right by the entire community...and by allowing all these people to disrespect the law...is obscene and disloyalty to home. I understand your compassion for all of these people...but if you want to be a part of any community Ron, you have to join in and create a whole body...not expect free handouts...and I bet, there are many of them that do pay their own way...but unfortunatly, the majority are not and are draining our systems...and until we change the laws, we can't just ignore them and say..anything goes...we're talking millions of people, not 10 or 20. This has got to have an impact eventually. They are fantastic workers, some really marvelous people...every culture has it's good and bad...but my entire point is...when I posted this original thread...it shocked me, b/c to me, it seems like most of this has already happened and is in the process of happening and I wanted to have some clear cut opinion on it, b/c it really scared me.... I didn't post it to be mean, but to learn...and the moment I did, I was referred to as a cockroach and racist...and I don't like that very much, yanno? Challenge me, help me learn, but don't call me names, cuz yanno, I could turn around and say, your a bigot when it comes to some facts I laid out and asked for opinion. I respect your opinions guys, I've learned quit a lot from you in the past...but sometimes you can get really spirited and mean and nasty, because you disagree...well guess what, we're never going to agree all the time... Ok, can we have a group hug now? Please understand, when I post this stuff, I'm asking for your opinions... |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
iliana thanks for the links.... hey girl, my thoughts are with you and your family, you'll be in my prayers...please be well in spirit sending lotsa hugs and well wishes love lee j |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Some folk are against immigrants of any kind, apparently like Mike (since he's arguing that Rome's legal immigrants were a bad thing), Cute twist, Ron...you da man! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. A problem will arise if immigrants fail to assimilate, becoming American, and feel instead they deserve to remain as they are because America owes them like Americans. . |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Brad and Grinch, you've made some very good points thank you... in one of your statements you say, it's the way Lamm worded his statement.. well take me for instance....I get really passionate about the issue I'm talking about, I can't help it...and I tend to not word things right all the time...so there ya go...it's not that I mean harm, it just comes out wrong sometimes...my expression I mean...well, maybe he didn't mean it the way it sounded either? But I do understand what your saying, which also puts a strain on people who want to express but fear not being politically correct, which in turn, the name calling starts and people walk away hurt, angry...and nothing is learned or accomplished, not to mention walking on egg shells every time a body opens his/her mouth? Also, even though we're having a great influx of people of Mexican decent...there are also other illegals from other countries which I'm aluding to...and yes, the fact that there are a great number also scare me, but I realize, we fear what we don't understand, as well. Brad, my aunt and her friend told me, due to this, so many different nationalities who are illegal...forming gangs fighting for streets and drug sales...???? They were afraid to go out...they really were. I'm still for obeying the law...in this case especially, seems our judicial system is being eroded by so many who want to twist the law to their liking or political agenda and that is very dangerous, isn't it. thanks sincerly for explaining... You did good Brad...LOL |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
John A problem will arise if immigrants fail to assimilate, becoming American, and feel instead they deserve to remain as they are because America owes them like Americans. Yes, there ya go, there is another fear, wait...I am going to give you another example ok, I'm back...here ya go.... http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=2559§ionid=3510203 this is bad, very bad...and this is what really scares people, this kind of behavior.... a perfect example of what I mean, yet, if I speak up in fear, I'm called a racist...??? Yanno, I don't believe there are a lot of people who Like Bush, but I also believe not many people would act like this towards him here in America... I dunno, this just isn't right? Then why are they here? And again, I know some who are really wonderful decent people, but they are legal... I knew some who were illegal and they dealt drugs...and they scared me...they were very forward...and when they were in groups, they wolf hollored, yanno? Thats not right either. Oh, I forgot to tell you, I waitressed part time and of course they all worked there...some were very nice, and I loved them...but others scared me. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Huan Yi, ****If immigrants fail to assimilate, becoming American**** What is American? My friend from Thailand is working in JPL...has an important role in space shuttle launch. Her daughter went to West Point and served a year in Iraq. Her son followed her daughter (big sister) went to Iraq now for a year. They cook, eat Thai food daily and live in a Thai Culture. Is there a problem? My Irish friends have their own culture activates at weekend. Jewish friends enjoy their kosher food. Why a problem if they do not bother others eating hamburger and fries? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
LeeJ, quote: It’s not how he worded his statement it’s his suggestion that language and cultural differences are to blame when the root cause is plainly that one or more of the races involved don’t like the other. He is in effect promoting the very thing that is guaranteed to destroy your nation – racism – while at the same time trying to convince you that it’s the only way to save your nation. Being labelled a racist seems to be a little harsh I know but being racist is a little like being pregnant, you either are or you aren’t and when someone starts to argue against a group of people using generalisations like language and culture it’s hard to attach any conclusion other than the arguments are based on race and by definition racist. It’s unclear what you are arguing against if it’s not the immigrants’ race, you mentioned the legality of their entrance into your country. So if they all entered legally in the same numbers and paid taxes would your fears suddenly disappear? Or are you simply saying that you don’t feel comfortable with a load of foreigners, legal or otherwise, moving into your country? Put it another way, which would you honestly prefer illegal Canadians or legal Mexican immigrants? I said honestly. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
quote: well, I disagree and of course I'll explain why...language is a problem...it's difficult communicating with them...frustrating to say the least...they can't read when they drive, there are a lot of accidents b/c they can't read, they don't obtain drivers licenses that are legal b/c they can't read, and they of course don't aquire insurance (not good)...it costs this nation more money to appease them by printing bilingual directions and signs, and hire bilingual teachers, now police officers need to have Spanish, as well as our emergency care workers...it creates more problems all the way around. I mean, if I want to be in another country, that is the first thing I'd do, is learn the language...I'd have to? Again, how would my friend who came to this country have been able to put herself through college if she didn't learn the language, and she did, and she was so happy and proud to become a citizen...but the language barrier is just that, a great imposition and large cost and strain on everyone. On everyone that has to deal with them on some level, even in emergency situations.... quote: a little harsh to say the least, when I think of a racist, I picture Archie Bunker, and I am not even related. and no, my arguments are not based on race...I said before, illegal immigrants are from other contries, so naturally they are from many different cultures..there are many illegal cultures here, but not all of them are as fearless as the Mexicans. Some actually do possess guilt for what they are doing, b/c they are wrong...as we would be if we went to another country and did the same thing. Diversity is fine, as long as it doesn't give one rights over another...there is not equality with this...the best man doesn't get the job....yanno? quote: illegal = something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation, which in this case is against the law...years ago, people were actually deported if they didn't have a green card. They also respected the laws...when laws are ignored, people think they are above the law...which in turn causes big trouble for everyone. quote: I have no problem with it, if they go through the legal system and do it the legal way...no acceptions...and they must learn to speak english, read and write...why wouldn't you want to do that? Listen, here's an example...I got a traffic ticket for speeding. That is against the law...my son's a cop, I could have used him to get out of the ticket...it was against the law and I was wrong...it was early in the morning and I was not paying attention...so I deserved to pay the fine...and I did... quote: Canadian men would still wolf whistle, especially if they were in a group, instead of saying ahhhh, chica...they'd say...in French, something very romantic, but it would still scare me....meaning, neither...honestly...its wrong to be an illegal. maybe this will help you understand my culture...there is no way, I'd go to another country and expect to work without becoming a part of the community, the working community...there is no way I would not feel guilty if I didn't pay my way, and I would want to fit in...be a part of the community...be liked...so why would I want to break their laws...I just couldn't even be so bold as to have it any other way?????? It just wouldn't be right? I couldn't do it, no matter how poor I was, how hungry I was...I'd want to do my part...and give back to the community that was kind enough to hire me and give me that opportunity...it would be a great priviledge...and believe me, there was a time, I was thinking of doing it. Grinch, I do appreciate your patience and kindness in explaining...you've brought out some very thought provoking points, and this is what makes this issue so confounded hard...but in the end...I really do believe there are less racists on this subject then you'd like to believe...it's just that the issue is a heated one...and touches some very delicate spots on both sides... The reason I posted this man's speech was because it really scared me...cuz it is happening now...you disagreed, you made me feel badly, by calling me a racist, saying I was politically incorrect....and from the replys I guess everyone was thinking I was just like this man...when what I wanted was your comments on the events he was discussing.... another thing, you state that this problem exists b/c the races do not like each other...well, I'm going to tell you something...when you've worked all your life since you were 13 years old, you've gone by the book, paid taxes, paid medical expenses, and struggled like anything...and someone else comes in, and gets everything handed to them...gets a cut in taxes, doesn't have to speak your language, your culture starts creating things in his language...well, I start scratching my head, and yeah, people are definately going to get a chip on their shoulder, regardless of his nationality...after a while, you say, what in the heck have I been working for all my life, now I gotta appease all these other folks...you start feeling used...it doesn't fit right, yanno. Everytime I open my mouth to contribute to a subject or issue, like this one, I must be very careful that someone else may take it wrong, and stuff outa my mouth is usually taken the wrong way anyway.... this isn't fair to us either...and is in a way...racist against us...what I mean is, just because you don't always agree with me, doesn't make me right and you wrong, or visa versa, they are opinions...and if we sit down, and discuss, maturely, maybe this world would get jiggy with it? do I make any sense? |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: No Mike. I’m not in any trap. Check yourself. He stated: "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream. I read: LEGAL and ILLEGAL. Which means every known walk of foreigner in our nation. He didn’t differentiate. He culled. Now, about the people who are illegally here. If I break the law, I pay or lose my privileges. I earned myself a whopping $150 speeding ticket just the other day. I took it like a real Woman Driver should! I was clocked and caught and I will pay up or lose my license. Period. Those hiring illegal workers should pay or lose their licenses to conduct business or better yet, liquidate them and their assets if they are repeat offenders. Period. I can’t walk in and arrest them. It’s the Government’s JOB to do their job! I’m paying my taxes. We’ve all hired someone to protect our borders and to monitor the tables on employment. I feel like we're being tricked into a “weed em-out” mentality. It gets thing done cheap, by keeping us busy fighting amongst ourselves, while they put our money in places uh-like their pension plans. Cash Cow? Are we being milked and bilked by aliens? How about our own home grown government? Our defense is concentrated on foreign soil, right now. If we have so much concern about the drain from foreigners, then why are we out there playing world cop instead of concentrating on our own nation’s mismanagement? I’m not excusing anyone taking advantage of anything, I’m just refusing to make foreigners own up to all our problems. 0020,mmmmmmmmmmk’ My new puppy just typed that. He must have something to say, too. The Pledge of Allegiance? If that makes us united, then millions of Americans better go back and learn it. quote: We robbed this land to start with, if you want to focus on what’s wrong. What’s right is diplomacy. Not supremacy or discrimination bred forth in a lottery of fear. Americans should study well, the Roman Empire. In the end, diversity still managed to exist, culturally, but I believe it was the absence of the value of human life that did them in. They exploited the strong & brave to keep the starving poor, entertained! quote: If they are blaming any other people for crushing their opportunities, yes. I will face them. Because I would like to know how someone stopped them from utilizing their own mind to take advantage of the privileges provided for them. I’m not afraid to ask anyone a valid question. Maybe most are afraid of the answers. LeeJ~ quote: I’m not upset. I’m just challenging the attitude directed at foreign people. What ought to really upset everyone is how many Americans are draining our economy. What? We’re American, so we have a right to? People are people, not insects, even if we act like it sometimes. You’re a strong woman. Face your fears. Know who you are and know your worth as a human being who is just as important as the next. Stay abreast of proposed solutions and don’t become part of the problem by generalizing and spreading mass miscommunication in the form of discriminating propaganda and ill-proposed strategies. You're right. This is a serious problem that calls for serious action, not a wild horse posse crazed with hate. That's what worries me. I don't want people jumping on other people because they are "brown" and they must be Mexican, and they must be illegal! I bet many are accused of being here illegally when they aren't. How do we know? Do we go around like the Gestapo and ask for papers based upon their accent or racial profiling?? The article disturbs me because he basically states that people should shed their culture like dirty underwear. You first. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
LeeJ, When one talks about the impact of illegal –immigrant on US economy, social stability or reforming of culture, one must use solid figures to present the situation. If you use biased single or three cases to generalize a problem then it is very easy to get into the trap of prejudice. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Regina, your darn right I am a strong woman, and I have worked very hard to accomplish that... I have many friends who are legal immigrants even Mexican, and they all feel the same way I do except for one...and that one steals merchandise, from her boss....and place of employment...the others are very successful people.... I will fight for legal immigration and I don't care how many millions of them come here, as long as they come here legally and are documented and pay their share along with the rest of us? And yes, there are American's who also take advantage of the system which I written about no, been very vocal about, but Regina, two wrongs do not make a right...it is clearly unfair...and wrong... Would you do it? Would you abuse the system.... Would you expect to be able to get free services... Regina, you are a very intelligent woman, and I don't see you as a person who would take advantage of the system or if you had to, you'd pay back every red cent. I've read your poetry. This is not about racism...it is though about the way I was raised...and I wasn't raised to take free hand outs...from anyone... I have a neighbor, he's a low life...and If I were not living here he'd be taking money from my mom. Yes indeed, my mom is wrong...she has given away much money in her life and helped many a people, but unfortunately, she is very naieve, and believes everyone....this guy would be over here telling her sob stories and taking her money. She is wrong for giving it, as is our government wrong for not upholding our laws...so they make them dependent upon us...point being...I loath anyone who can take money from someone else and not pay it back. Everyone needs help at some point in their lives...but to depend on someone else to pay your bills is not a working member of the community and will eventually drain the funds or be it the systems. It can never work that way...nor could I ever do that...we were taught to work hard for what we wanted, and I don't resent anything...period...but I do resent the fact that I've obeyed the laws and if I didn't I'd have to pay the consequences...illegals don't. Not fair...to the community, or whole body... Thats not being racist, that is common sense... To boot maybe if you'd consider this has been going on now for years...and years...and after a while it gets really frustrating... Yes, go after those who are taking advantage of both sources, definately agree... Even though we don't agree Regina...good post...well done! |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Tom When one talks about the impact of illegal –immigrant on US economy, social stability or reforming of culture, one must use solid figures to present the situation. If you use biased single or three cases to generalize a problem then it is very easy to get into the trap of prejudice. No, I used facts...not generalizations, but facts...which everyone knows it's true..it's not rocket science...and the cases are strong...and draining the economy...closing 3 hospitals in CA is not generalization...and that's what I believe Lamm means that will spread across the country...we have no money Tom....America is broke...I don't think we have a lot of money for social services....for things like FEMA, like homeland security, etc...it's all gone...so how in the world can we continue to take care of all these people... Come here, work, but get youself legal, pay your share of taxes and earn the right to vote and be a member of the rest of the community. I'm telling you, I apologize for sounding ignorant...but I can't understand this free hand out stuff...where does that come from and how can people continue to believe it's not going to have an effect on everyone? Not to mention, all these illegal immigrants kids in schools, my God, they don't have to pay taxes yet we're building more and more schools, additions to schools...how long can the average citizen afford to carry this load on his own, and to boot, is it any wonder a lot of people are angry...this is money out of their pockets, and they've already paid for their kids. Again people, this is not about 10 or a simply 20 or even 100 people...your talkin thousands, now multiply that by 1 or two kids...???? Do the math? Taxes are unreal...why? Look at the building of schools going on...look at how many classes are being held in Trailors...it is incredible... I mean this sincerely, what can you be thinking? Whose paying for all of this? We are, and we're tired...and when we get to be old, what is going to be there for us...I'll still be working to take care of the illegals...(just kidding) but what's the average retirement age now...68? 72? We work all our lives...don't you think it's hard enough, let alone our taxes are going up and up due to population and illegals flooding to this country. And yeah, we came over here and took the land 200 years ago....but they didn't give handouts...everyone worked hard, and together and they learned one common language and it worked...and they were proud to be here and be American...I've heard all the stories from my grand parents...how my nana came over on a boat and was so scared, nothin but the dress on her back, and they hit a storm and the boat was delayed, they ran out of food and when she got here, she bought a pie off a vender and sat down on the street corner and ate the whole pie. She from that point on, worked very hard...very hard...she learned the language...her husband was a cobbler, he made shoes...they grew their own fruits and vegtables and canned everything...worked their 1 acre garden...manually...never took a red cent from the government... this is what we were taught...sorry, it's my culture...it's not racist...it's earning a fair and legal living...without straining someone else. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
http://www.borderwarmovie.com/main.html "The right sees this as cheap labor, the left sees this as cheap votes..." "What you've got is a perfect storm..." quotes from the trailer above. I'm trying to find now, the text from a documentary I watched last week that stated that illegal Mexicans alone, paid 5.9 billion dollars (I believe they said 2005 alone) into our social security system, via identity fraud. That's right. They paid into a system that will never pay them a dime. That kinda makes the "cash cow" moo both ways, don't it? (And hey? I'm also wondering how they can come up with a figure without knowing more--5.9--why not make it an even six, since we aren't prosecuting people giving us money anyway?)  And I am telling you all, those storm chasers? Kicked our homegrown roofing asses. We admit it. But this topic is meant for better minds than mine--but certainly, all should agree we can't have it both ways. Well, not for much longer... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: No, actually, I don't know, Lee. I guess that means I didn't work all my life, go by the book, pay taxes, pay medical expenses, yada yada yada? Gee, maybe if I work a little harder and sacrifice a bit more, I can get a chip on my shoulder, too? I spent about two hours tonight on the back deck watching hummingbirds. They're fascinating creatures, adorably cute and amazingly agile. Zoom, zoom! Hummingbirds are one of nature's true wonders, in my humble opinion. But they're also damnably aggressive and deplorably territorial. One bird, if he's able (or she, as females are just as dominating), will guard a feeder and run off any other hummer who dares to try using it. I've never watched a WWF bout, but I seriously doubt it would hold a candle to the battles that rage daily on my back deck. These birds are tough, mean, and unremitting. I remember a few years back, when I put my first feeder on the back deck. I would honestly feel frustrated when this little male (I nicknamed him Napoleon) buzzed in incessant circles, chasing off all the other birds. So I fixed him. I moved the feeder to one corner of the deck awning and put a second feeder on the other corner. There was no way, I figured, Napoleon could possibly guard both. Today, I have seven feeders hanging strategically on my back deck, and I go through almost five gallons of nectar every week. I play host to a LOT of hummingbirds. Here's the thing though. The thing I really don't understand. They have seven feeders on the deck, a few others spread throughout the yard, an eight by eight foot garden of bee balm planted just for them, a trellis full of honeysuckles, a whole yard full of daylilies, and I even run a sprinkler every evening just so they can have their nightly shower -- and every single one of those birds, young and old, male and female, is a Napoleon, a Caesar, a Stalin, a Saddam Hussein. Their greed seemingly knows no limits. From early Spring to late Fall, I refill my feeders every day, sometimes twice a day, and no bird ever goes hungry. Yet each bird seems deathly afraid that another might get more than they do? I guess I shouldn't expect birds to overcome the instincts that drive them. I shouldn't expect them to realize the resource limitations they apparently see are not real, that the fears they harbor are unfounded. No matter what they do with their lives, no matter what they don't do, there will always be more. I guess I shouldn't expect hummingbirds to understand a benevolence so apart from their small, tiny lives. They're just birds, after all. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
well guys, thank you, you have made a very good point Ron...incredible example...thank you One question Karen How did they pay 5.9 Bil into social securty? Can you explain? I ask you this b/c most of their employers pay them by cash and not checks...or am I being misled? I'll watch the video Karen thanks and thanks to all of you for a really incredible discussion. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: LOL. All this worry, Lee, and you don't even know how it works? Remember, now, I lived in Southern California for twenty some years? Running restaurants the first several years I was in San Diego? Aside from the odd instance of paying someone for a once-off quick job, no one is going to pay a permanent employee under-the-table cash. It's illegal and, frankly, it's dumb because you can't deduct it as a cost of doing business. Businesses don't hire illegal immigrants, they hire regular employees and just fail to run in-depth background checks. Every employee has a Social Security number, else they don't work. Granted, there might be three or four people using the SAME SS number, but they nonetheless have it. By the time the Feds get around to telling a business there's a discrepancy, the worker usually has moved on to a new job. Whether they wanted to or not. (I would guess those bogus SS numbers, Karen, are probably how someone out there guesstimated a six billion dollar figure. I suspect that figure is low.) Most illegal immigrants, at least in SoCal, are paid by company check. They have FICA withheld at the same rate you and I pay. They have income and disability taxes withheld just like everyone else, though they usually claim so many dependents and make so LITTLE money the deductions don't often amount to much. It's not like they can get a refund check at the end of the year, though. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I have a new puppy too Regina. She immigrated to my urban home from an Amish farm. She's been with me a couple of months now and she still doesn't speak the language.  Here's the quandry though -- How do you deport all the illegal immigrants? How do you create a guest worker program without creating a permanent underclass? Why doesn't anyone state the obvious -- that cheap labor in the pacific rim (cheaper than available Mexican labor) has siphoned off jobs that Mexicans could be doing in Mexico -- which was the original intent of NAFTA. We don't allow American businesses to be predatory -- why are we putting up with the practice when it's coming from China? When people emigrate to come here, legally, that adds to our domestic market -- it grows the number of people who need to buy cars, houses, furnishings, food, etc. --but if they're all made in China? That's the rub folks. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Ron, that may be true of Southern California, but it certainly is not true of Texas. Oh, maybe the restaurant business and some manufacturing, but not the hundreds of different day workers who stand on street corners waiting to be picked up and given a cash job doing manual labor of some sort....there is a lot of that here in Texas. It is a well known fact and I have to admit I've even been tempted to go pick up a couple of illegals to fix my roof, but I have not yielded and won't based on principle. The thing that most of you are forgetting is that subculture of illegals here. I don't see anything wrong with legal immigration. I'm not talking about the Central or South American countries alone. Here in Houston, we have illegals from every nation in the world. Many of them work for cash only and there are plenty of people here who are willing to help them. For years, it was known that various different limosine services here helped illegal Middle Easterners; also, the valet services at most nightclubs and restaurants worked on a similar basis. Don't believe me....well, I dated one of them before I was married; yes, he was looking for a green card. What bothered me more than the fact that he was illegal was the stories I would hear about the brawls that would take place in the valet parking lots between Lebanonese and Jordanians or Iraqi or Iranian employees. They literally brought their war here way back in the 80s and worked it out or not in our parking lots. When I was prepped to live overseas in a third world country, I was advised by my husband's personnel director that I would be representative of my country and that the example of my behavior while living there was important. They encouraged me to assimilate -- when in Rome, do as the Romans. I happen to believe the same respect is due our own nation. This is a nation of many cultures and we should appreciate and share our different cultures...however, I do not believe we should segregate over language in that language is the uniter. King James knew this when he had the Bible retranslated. Queen Elizabeth knew this when she had a common language drawn up for her empire with the assistance of Sir Francis Bacon. Language unites or it divides. I for one believe that anyone who wants to work or live here should do the same thing I was willing to do when I lived in another country, and that is to learn the predominate language. Okay....I'm done. [This message has been edited by iliana (07-28-2007 02:05 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*wince* I just popped in to thank Ron for explaining Payroll. (I failed FICA)  Well, it's prolly gonna fail me right back! pfffffffffffbbbbbbbbbllllt! |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LOL, Ser. Gosh, if there is that much money coming in through payroll (even with the use of fake IDs), I cannot even fathom the amount of money rolling around under the tables. But, whether or not it is spent here....well, one should check out the Western Union lines at Fiesta (a local international chain grocery here specializing in foods from Central and South America). Reb, you make some fine points. Yes, NAFTA.....bleep.......... |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hey Ron, thanks for the explaination... Karen and Ron, sit down.... I waitressed pretty near all my life as a second job. Up here in PA...and I'm not going to give you names....they pretty much pay these people regularly under the table....thats the truth...stick a needle in my eye, I saw it every week... great thread everyone...thanks so much |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No Mike. I’m not in any trap. Check yourself. Sorry, Regina. When you end with the "immigrants built this country" speech you are definitely missing the legal/illegal point. You are not alone since many of the comments dwell on immigration itself and not the illegality of those who shortcut and defy the system. Ok, let me get it straight then. Ron speaks of hummingbird comparisons and Reb speaks of his non-English speaking dog....so we're all a bunch of birdbrains going to the dogs? (trying to find the subliminal message here) |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
No probs, Mike. I’ve more than addressed the illegality issues, even in prior threads. I’ve stated that I don’t support illegal aliens or anyone who abuses the system. It’s wrong. What else can I say? Culling immigrants into a generalizing vein of system abuse is wrong, too. quote: We sure are if we base our realities on a person who wings it around a group of people as if they’re locusts, and if we don’t read the bottom lines: quote: He ended his speech with sincere support of a book that states, again: “Legal and Illegal immigrants were destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.” Do you support that statement, Mike? Lee~ Thanks, and no, I don’t take advantage or support anyone that does, as I’ve said, but I don’t waste valuable energy on things I can’t control. I’m hoping and praying for a solution that works without causing anyone any undue harm or pain. I suspect things will get much worse before they get better, because that’s the norm. I have to believe that our leaders will (eventually) do what they feel is best about the situation, while I try to keep my head on straight and not fall into some hysterical madness of fear and anger. Reb~ Aww, congrats to you. My puppy, Thor (what a name the girls gave him) will never speak or understand our spoken language, because he’s bilaterally deaf. He can’t hear a violent blast of thunder, hence the name. So I’m learning how to teach him sign language. I don’t know the answers to your questions, because each event would cost us more millions to act on than if they just stayed here and became tax paying citizens. Yep, we don’t make anything much like we used to. What to do, what to do, and who to see about it. Remember the saying “I’m gonna go see a man about a dog?” Haha. It's enough to make me wanna go see a man about a whole pack of dogs for about a month, but I refrain, cuz bootleggin' is still: illegal. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
LeeJ, I understand your fear and I understand that you believe what Lamm said. What does the ideal America look like in Lamm’s mind? If I say that American culture is that One came to live in foreign land. And one got helped in difficult time. Later he killed the helping hands and looted their land. Even smarter, he got cheap slaves from Africa. Do you think that every one who comes in US now (legally or not) wants to repeat that history? Esp. that illegal immigrant from Mexico. Why not? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Regina....no, I do not support that statement. I have no problem with legal immigration whatsoever. I salute them. (regardless of what ron labels me )Do I believe that factions will one day wipe out the USofA? Yes, but indirectly, not intentionally....and the fault will lie, not with them, but with the government, the labor unions and our own foibles. Hey, something will wipe us out. History is riddled with empires that were once..."the glory that was Rome". If it's not that, it will be the fact that we could not defend ourselves due to a shortage of oil, after having been cut off by the Middle East and because we were too stupid to drill for and refine our own oil resources for fear of killing the silver-tip winged cartuche fly. If not that, then something else. History is a great map of the future..... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Why is calling the US an 'empire' no longer a monopoly of the loonie left? Where's Mark Twain when you need him? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. By 2050 it is said that the United States will be at least 25% Hispanic. I won’t be around then to ask the question so I wonder what would the United States be like now if that were true? The thing that I most note for example is that Hispanics are overwhelmingly Roman Catholic and if they’re like the Slavic immigrants they wouldn’t be carrying any burden of domestic and international guilts some other Americans seem so fond of for themselves and others that effect national and foreign policies. . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: First -- we could have some kind of compromise plan that would bring them to citizenship as a goal -- and get them registered and on the books and at least know who they are -- but, oh, yeah -- the talk-right crowd sort of gutted that with the filibuster in the Senate. http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/186060.aspx Guess it's a good thing for them they didn't pursue that nuclear option they sabre-ratttled about so much when they held the majority eh? quote: Believe it or not -- there are answers Regina -- without resorting to dog shopping. In Constraint Theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_constraints one of the first things that we have to decide is what is the purpose of our enterprise. When we begin to look at our nation as what it actually is -- a collective economic enterprise -- or a super-corporation if you will -- then we need to decide what the ultimate goal of that enterprise is. (Fortunately for us -- we only have to look back to its' founding to figure that out.) Basically -- an enterprise can have one of three goals: 1. Make money 2. Satisfy Customers 3. Provide jobs/economic opportunities for a certain group of people. We know that every enterprise has to do all three things -- but any one of them can be the first priority. For example -- on Walton's mountain there was a family - owned and operated saw-mill. We can bet that the foremost consideration when it came time to make decisions was to make sure that certain people were employed. One of my customers opened her own pharmacy -- she is the only pharmacist that works there regularly -- the decisions that she makes center around providing a job for herself. A corporate take-over artist, on the other hand -- has the goal of maximizing yields for the shareholders. If we looked at the bottom line of the companies that decide to off-shore jobs -- the reason isn't because they're losing money or even because of competitive pressure -- it's mostly because the appearance of saving money drives up the stock value. On the other hand -- the very model of how we should be operating our own industries is right in front of us -- in the factories that have been built by foriegn-owned enterprises. They keep most of the primary processes in thier own domain -- and ship components un-assembled (secondary processes) to the U.S. for final assembly close to the market where the final product will be sold/purchased. We should be doing that to SELL products into the countries we trade with -- instead of outsourcing our primary processes (and thus decreasing the base of knowledge and skilled opportunites within our own economic collective) in order to BUY cheaply. (The question is -- who are the actual greedy hummingbirds -- the skilled workers who have learned trades and watched their careers get shipped overseas -- or the people who want to buy cheap goods at Wal-Mart?) The decisions that 'America Inc.' should be making must always be to: 'establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity' and not about maximizing profits for a priveledged few. Some of the decisions we can make; A tariff system that punishes systems that don't follow our own rules about environmental protection, standard wages, child labor, and slave labor. A tariff system that recovers an equivalent amount of FICA and Federal Income Tax based upon the labor content of the product. A tariff system that levies a premium on products that require significant capital investments (ie- primary processes -- injection molding, metal stamping, die-casting, etc.) and a fuel levy based on how much energy is absorbed by the transportation costs. Just a couple of suggestions. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Two Iraqi spies met in a busy restaurant after they had successfully slipped into the U.S. The first spy starts speaking in Arabic. The second spy hushes him quickly and whispers: "Don't blow our cover. You're in America now, speak Spanish." |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
"sheeeee, we are in New-England. speak English English. We don't want to be noticed as illegal immigrants...worse" |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Quote by TomMark quote: I'm still standing my ground on this issue, until the government decides what to do and my only reason is, it's the law...and you can't bend laws to suit everyone's personal problem...to do otherwise is breaking the law...period. Tom, I am sorry I missed this, could you explain more... If I'm correct, I'm thinking your referring to the fact that by not socially adapting, to reading, writing and speaking English, it costs the country so much extra by printing directions in different languages, making different road signs, etc. Especially since most countries are proven to be going English...on National Language...? I dunno, not prejudice, just to me it makes makes sense. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
LeeJ, What worries you is the illegal immigrant---from any other countries. You are right. They are illegal and against American law. Government shall deal with it. But is what Lamm and the book “maxifornia” talked about also your concern? There are many issues mentioned there “Mexifornia” Legal and illegal—Mexican takes over Californian …(is it true?) Lamm’s destroying America 1. One language (white English? or Black English?) 2. One culture (which one? English? Germen? French? Africa? Indian? Christian? Catholic? Quake? Or American Media?) 3. 'Hispanic Quebec' (where? is it true?) 4. Education to new comers (Bush’s “nobody left behind” would achieve it) 5. Minority failure(?) 6. Loyalty (to America, yes. But to which party?) 7. Political correctness (he is in it) 8. Again about book “Mexifornia” If Lamm had gut to be true to himself he would have talked about what a strong America looked like in his mind…. That would be too political incorrect and he would be in trouble…he is scared too. Why? We are all human ....…struggle to survive from all kinds of pressures, like all illegal immigrants. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
LeeJ, Are you saying that to be a citizen of America you should be able to read and write English and should not be, or have been, involved in anything illegal? If so I think that’s very reasonable and as long as you apply that criteria to all races equally regardless of language and culture I don’t think it can be classed as racist. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Reb~ Do you think we may not ever know who the illegals are? And maybe it might have something to do with the pot they're pickin' their identities from? I mean the illegals had to learn how to do it from somewhere? Graveyard politics? on the enterprise? All good points and this is sincerely poetic: quote: true, but many struggle with all the different languages. Legal, system, military, mathematical, constitutional, etc. And they'll never understand how important their own signature is, let alone their vote. Grinch~ Great point. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I am saying, illegal immigration of any kind is in fact illegal...and shouldn't be I think, it will be our demise and regardless of Lamm's political views...I've disregarded that, and have stated that I believe most of what he says has already come true.... now all of you that believe it's ok to break the law...fine, that is most certainly your opinion....but when you break down the laws...to fit purpose...whatever the situation is...you breakdown strength and order in the community... but it has gone on way to long... and yes, as I stated, they had to close down 3 major hospitals in Calif. which speaks volumns about their effect. and I understand your ideas and opinions about feeling bad for Juan and his family....but it is still against the law, and what scares me is the fact that this deteoriation of our law has been going on for a very long time...very dangerous....to us and for us... |
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JL Member Ascendant
since 2004-04-01
Posts 6128Texas, USA |
Great topic Lee J. “Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.” ~Theodore Roosevelt 1907 Great topic Lee J. My ancestors came here in the late 1600’s. Some were here much longer than that. My dad’s family as best we can trace it started in France - Whales – Ireland – Scotland. But there is Cherokee and Apache in the family line as well. My mom’s side is pretty mixed up too, German – Italian – and who knows what else. The difference is they all became Americans. Their heritage is first the Colonies, the Indian Territories, and finally the states. Ancestors fought to make this a country with borders and one common language, one main ideal: Freedom, Liberty, and Justice for all. All who becomes American. Sure we have laws that allow for immigrants to migrate here, but they should become a member of the most remarkable country in the world. Not Latinos, or Mexican-Americans, or African-Americans, or Italian-Americans, or German-Americans, but Americans all… There is plenty of room for anyone who wants to come here and be an American, speak English, and become a responsible member of the American Culture. Yes American Culture. Recently I was filling out applications for various things and I noticed that you have to denote “Race”, there is “White, African, Asian, Latin, Indian”, and sometimes “More Than One Race.” But there is no “American” selection to make. It’s as if America doesn’t count for a group of people to be considered. All other nations in the world are represented by “Race” why not the USA? Sure I understand that there are more than one Spanish speaking Nations, but that is because of Spain, not Latinos. I sometime wonder if all the Spanish-speaking nations consider all Spanish as the same. Then there is Portugal. Go figure. That’s another one that is excluded, or at least it’s clumped in with European Nations on the questionnaires. What about Brazil? Haahaa… We are such idiots to let the world of nations dictate our Heritage as Americans. I wonder how all those other nations developed? Think all the people originated from inside their borders? And why if they are so compelled to be such wonderful immigrant loving nations do they have such harsh immigration laws, and police and military guarding their borders? We would do well to mimic Mexico’s Immigration Laws. Oh, and try to get into Canada. Haahaa… People are really stupid here in the land of the free. I guess they have the right; after all, my ancestors fought in the Revolution; to free Texas; the Civil War; the Spanish American War; WWI; WWII; Korea; Vietnam; Gulf War, Afghanistan, Iraq. Those are my people those are my heritage and fellow countrymen. That’s where my pride is in America, and those who call themselves American, and those who would die for the rights of even the most ignorant citizen of the USA to be stupid. Thanks Lee J for a most wonderful posting. God Bless America and Americans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJfS1v-fU0 |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
JL what can I say other then BRAVO... Now why couldn't I say that? I know how I feel, it just never comes out the way it should. Seriously JL...thank you so much... Hugs, and love the link, thank you for stopping by, cuz your opinion counts... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Charles Simic, who spoke no English until his late teens, will be the second New Hampshire poet in a row to serve as U.S. poet laureate. Yesterday, the Library of Congress announced Simic's appointment to succeed Donald Hall glad he decided to learn English |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: --Charles Simic |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
If it weren't for patriots and poetry…there would not be freedom…for in a poets heart there is hope, passion, belief…and worship for devotion, and for a God of tenderness….human beings cannot always think for themselves…because society won't allow it…any ideas going against society's beliefs are scorned and turned asunder, amisdt decline of standards in education…the world is fastly becoming a people who are not able to think for themselves or problem solve. Most of their information is implemented by television…news media…and not challenged…due to an over powering storm of diversity... *************************************************** Definition of Diversity The concept of diversity encompasses acceptance and respect. It means understanding that each individual is unique, and recognizing our individual differences. These can be along the dimensions of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, age, physical abilities, religious beliefs, political beliefs, or other ideologies. It is the exploration of these differences in a safe, positive, and nurturing environment. It is about understanding each other and moving beyond simple tolerance to embracing and celebrating the rich dimensions of diversity contained within each individual. *************************************************** But diversity has to be explored by all, and quick changes in culture cannot be effected overnight, it must be a slow process…under one language…otherwise, how can cultural differences be understood, if not discussed. If there is no communication…there is then no understanding…on cannot be embraced without the other… Diversity can be an electrifiying tool, but all must come together under one home…in order for it to take a positive stance… yet diversity can be an evil fear...if forced upon a society...it takes time to change cultures, generations... cultures can collide...and become overwhelming, intimidating, resulting in animosity...who controls diversity? Who regulates it's laws, its every integration of one concept? anything else will be a tower of Babel... |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
...which is why God invented Babelfish. (Jim) Hola! Estoy apesadumbrado que si es ilegal el estado le ofende. Me ofende también. Mi madre es un ciudadano de Estados Unidos que habla solamente español. Mi hermano es un ciudadano de Estados Unidos que vive del dinero de mi madre. Soy el ilegal quién habla inglés y español y hace el trabajo que proporciona el dinero de mi madre y paga su Seguridad Social. Porque nací fuera de la unión en México, ella no me reconocerá formalmente. La desconcierto, incluso mientras que la alimento. Así pues, no tengo ninguna trayectoria a la ciudadanía como miembro de la familia. Considere por favor que el problema entero de la inmigración es avería de mi madre. (What Babelfish did for Laura) Or, the whole immigration problem is my Mother's fault. (Laura) Laura Salazar, Jim Aitken, and Babelfish [This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (11-27-2007 06:35 PM).] |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
В разі надзвичайних ситуацій, деякі вікі дозволяють перемикати бази даних в режим, коли вони доступні тільки для читання. Інші застосовують політику, що дозволяє продовжувати редагування тільки давнім користувачам, які зареєструвалися до якоїсь довільно обраної дати. Однак загалом кажучи, будь-яку шкоду, завдану «вандалом», можна швидко та легко виправити. Більш проблематичними є непомітні помилки, які вставляють у сторінки. Приклад: зміни в датах випусків альбомів співаків, їхньої дискографії. У крайніх випадках, багато вікі дають змогу захистити певні сторінки від редагування. Наприклад, захищені сторінки Вікіпедії можуть редагувати тільки адміністратори, які можуть також знімати такий захист. Але зазвичай вважають, що така практика суперечить основній філософії вікі, а тому її, як правило, уникають. Наприклад, англійська Вікіпедія водночас має, ну може, тридцять захищених сторінок — із понад трьохсот тисяч. [This message has been edited by TomMark (11-27-2007 10:27 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
TM, I think I'm the only one here who can read that. I like Thai food too. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Brad, is that talking about learning Spanish in Japan? Are you sure you read the right language? Are you drinking again? Have a wonderful day! Dear Sir Brad. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Now that's not fair! |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Brad http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~rkw/RKW_FOLDER/Fest2005.pdf http://the-mouse-trap.blogspot.com/2007/10/fairness-in-your-genes.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=17214308&cmd=showdetai lview&indexed=google |
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