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On Constructive Critiquing--Discussion
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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On Constructive Critiquing--Discussion |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I was wondering if a critiquing reference wouldn't be a bad idea to help poets and commenters consider certain things when toward posting or critiquing a piece in the Critical Analysis forum. Things like structure, symbolism, type of meter, rhyme, metaphor, spelling, grammar, cliche, originality etc. What makes constructive free vers? What makes successful form vers? A platform or paradigm just to assist or remind fresh critiques or established critiques of some of the most important elements to constructive writing, reading and critiquing. Perhaps we could put this together right now...what questions and elements do you think are most important? [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-26-2003 02:58 PM).] |
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Munda Member Elite
since 1999-10-08
Posts 3544The Hague, The Netherlands |
Essorant, What a coincidence. Sunshine has requested for a class on critiquing for September classes of the Poetry Workshop. Personally I would love to learn how to give good and constructive critisims, without leaving the poet with a bad feeling. A critiquing refenrence would be a great help to me and perhaps people like yourself, Pete, Local Parasite, to name a few, would like to help out in the workshop and teach us the how, what, where, why and when? I'm sure will gladly leave it to some of the experts.  Munda /pip/Forum22/HTML/000758.html |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Essorant, here are two links that our local poetry group worked on this month. We found the information to be of great help, and I think a review of these two links would assist anyone not only in what to expect, but also in how to administer a constructive critique. http://www.blehert.com/essays/critique.html http://www.patchword.com/original/articles/critique.html Munda...feel free to take these to the poetry forum if you wish...  |
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Legion Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54 |
I think it’s a good idea, where do I sign up? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I'm in too. Love this. |
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Tequilia_Sunrise Senior Member
since 2003-02-19
Posts 612Lochalsh, Ontario, Canada |
This will be very help full, i would love to see it. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Poets, I think we should all have shared liberty to express our most honest censure and feelings whatsoever but there are frames of manners we must uphold us in and constructivity that we certainly must pursue and impress as our purpose for a critical forum I believe and that's why I suggest a reference. But while shall be critical we should be wary all how we bestow us, our approach, tone of voice and way of wording, and never be overbearing or insensive of the poets personal mood. A Critical ettiquette must be observed in every critique and always we should work as fellows ammending never as arrogant findfaults. I am express against hectoring and arrogant smites. Our purpose should be to ammend not to exploit flaws; And cast our best speculation and judgement on what we find. How do we do this? I wish I were knowing and expert enough to convey the susbstance of critiquing. But there are people who have been critiquing long time here and perhaps we may call on them to to work with this a bit... and we may help them along the way. Why do we critique? What makes a good critique? May any type of piece be posted here? What should we consider before posting a poem in critical analysis? What should we look for first? How should we go about critiquing in a manner that won't make the poet feel bad? Just a few initial questions to consider... [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-27-2003 03:30 PM).] |
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Legion Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54 |
Essorant, Did you post this because of a specific critique you’ve read here? If so which? |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: If you wish to only hear positive comments, why post here at all? If you already believe your poem to be beyond reproach, why even look for a critique? Why not just post on the Open Poetry forum where there seems to be an abundance of positive “fluff?” I was under the impression that this was a forum for more in-depth analysis, and I’d prefer to hear someone tell me that my poem is bad—as long as they can qualify their statement. If they can’t, then it’s very likely they will have to listen to my analysis of their opinion. I think healthy, logical debate—short of name-calling of course—is a good thing and some folks just need to thicken their skins in order to partake. In the end, these are all someone else’s personal opinions anyway. Yet, if someone’s opinions are backed up with examples or references, they’ll of course carry much more weight than one who merely opines simply that a person's work is "bad." |
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Legion Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54 |
I agree entirely with cynicsRus. Comments posted in CA are in general just honest reflections of each readers opinion and being such they could be right wrong or just plain indifferent. My advice would be that if you don’t agree with any of the comments simply ignore them or better still ask for clarification or more information. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
We have to realize the criticism is an art as well as a science. Over the time I have been here we have had a few people who were very good at it. The rest of us can reasonably only hope to be mediocre, I'm afraid. I learned from reading those who were good that it is hard to do a good job. But the heart of this forum is criticism so it behooves us all to do the best we can. The more we all contribute to the cause, the better the forum and the experience for us all will be. Just as reading poetry is one of the best tools for learning to write poetry, reading critiques is an excellent tool for learning hw to critique. By studying what a critic has to say whether good, bad or indifferent, one will gradually absorb some knowledge of how to go about it and will soon be able to distinguish good from bad. Having a discussion of this nature can do nothing but help that cause. Any ideas, thoughts or suggestions will certainly be more than welcome if it furthers the cause of the forum. I hear that Nan is considering such a topic for next month in the Poetry Workshop too. It can't hurt to check in there. Pete |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Is there a way we could devise a model or skeleton of the general good critique that could be appointed for a companion reference to the doubtful critiquer? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Essorant, and Lisa...one of the things that I have learned to do is mentally adjust my way of thinking when coming in to Critical Analysis. I tell myself to look at it MORE like "Constructive" Criticism. In that light, I will be the "lamb" and offer up this link, which will show what I felt was "good, constructive criticism, breakdown and feedback" on a poem I had worked up. I'm not asking you to give any analysis to what has already been said in that link; but, I do think it offers up a very good, overall picture of how a good analysis was accomplished. While some of the remarks could be considered "harsh", overall, everyone was quite helpful, considerate and kind. But most of all, I looked at the "time and passion" in which everyone replied. /pip/Forum28/HTML/000277.html As for me, I'm still learning "how" to give constructive criticism, which is not the same as "editing" for spelling and grammar. Lisa, to "unmember" yourself would simply require your not coming back in to Passions. I hope that doesn't happen. Each and every one of us sometimes run into a member that rubs us the wrong way, just as in real life. You learn to either accept or avoid them, and press on with the other members. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I think those are many excellent examples in that thread. Thank you Sunshine. [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-06-2003 04:19 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Let's start the first Capital: Please fill in the blanks if you will  A good poem is ___?____ A critical approach looks for____?____ A constructive Reader should at least read a poem___?____ times before assaying a critique because ___?____ Some things to avoid when critiquing a poem are___?____ A good critique should always__?____ |
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Errandghost Junior Member
since 2003-09-10
Posts 17Thoroughly Abroad |
I am by no means very expert at critique but I will try express my opinion as it be. A good poem is Graceful. A critical approach looks for Grace A constructive Reader should at least read a poem: a few times before assaying a critique because it is necessary! Some things to avoid when critiquing a poem are: Abruptness--no matter how intellegent a critique, if abrupt, it is nothing becoming this art and practice. Abstruseness -Don't be indirect. A good critique ought to be candid and earnest. A good critique should always be (above all) graceful. Aet Feawum Wordum [This message has been edited by Errandghost (09-10-2003 11:10 PM).] |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: Well, there you have it: It’s all relative! You’ve simply reinforced the point that was made several times earlier; that critiques are matters of opinion. Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com [This message has been edited by cynicsRus (09-11-2003 01:07 AM).] |
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Errandghost Junior Member
since 2003-09-10
Posts 17Thoroughly Abroad |
As long as opinions stay within grace. Actually I think they are matters of opinion and matters of necessity for the art itself. Every art needs a grace [This message has been edited by Errandghost (09-10-2003 11:42 PM).] |
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Errandghost Junior Member
since 2003-09-10
Posts 17Thoroughly Abroad |
And though An angel may still be an angel if it takes off its halo, it must face for sure being very much less recognized as an angel without it. So must modern poetry today by poets who are doing away with the chief crown and compliment that most certifies poetic grace; the sure buoyancebringing aspect amd attribute that people know poetry and its grace best by. This is taken off for an intellectual knobbiness of style in poetry that readers simply don't recognize as well as poetry...including me. Perhaps it is caused by trying to be too critical? [This message has been edited by Errandghost (09-11-2003 03:31 AM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
A critique is: 1 Honest 2 Potentially of use to the writer of the piece scrutinized That's all. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
I remember a critique Brad offered one of my early poems that read to the effect that he knew I "could do better than that." Not graceful, certainly, but both honest and useful. In fact, I think his directness was more helpful to me in that case than a critique that beat around the bush would have been. Although I think it's implied in Robt's opinion, I would only add "thoughtful." If you don't take the time to think about what you're reading, you're certainly not going to be able to offer a good critique. I, for one, prefer having my feelings hurt justifiably than having my ego pumped up when I don't deserve it. If you want to learn, you have to be willing to bear the consequences of failing from time to time. But maybe that's just me. Jim |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Also, if a critique is within the above parameters it is necessarily "constructive" if by constructive you mean helpful to the author in providing feedback about his/her poem and possibly how it might be improved. Thus a commentary which runs: "You have succeeded in writing a "poem" about the death of your boyfriend which is merely a load of cliche-ridden tripe, pockmarked with misspellings and grammatical errors such as those in S2L5. My suggestion is that you rip the thing to shreds and start out again with the short phrase at the end of S6 which reads "elemental as carbon shards" and build on that" may not be polite or tactful or sensitive, but is certainly "constructive" in so far as it represents the critiquer's honest suggestions for improving the poem. Whether such a blunt assessment is the best way of grabbing the author's attention and making him/her listen to ones views is another matter entirely. But then maybe a writer who posts to a critical forum should be sufficiently thick skinned to look past the style of a critique to it's substance. No? And btw, I totally agree with Sid and Legion that in a critical forum there is little place for Open forum type platitudes, or allowances for each poster's peculiar sensitivities. |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Like old days Jim :o). Yep thoughtful is implied by "useful" I think. I was trying to get away from the "Trevor-hate" of: "Grate peom, gud job" |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ah but "grate peom, gud job" says a lot about who you are appealing to. |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Brad Quite. Blair for President nite nite |
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Errandghost Junior Member
since 2003-09-10
Posts 17Thoroughly Abroad |
What you think is honest and useful/mindworthy may seem all utterly paltry to someone if it isn't conveyed through a little grace. . The critique needs to try to enhearten and impress the poet as well. Don't be afraid to use all the persuasive craft you may rear to move the poet. Give him your argument with grace; show him the truth with grace. He was moved to write poetry trying to pursue a form of grace now let him wit well you understand grace and eloquence too in your observations and practices. The poet will appreciate a beholdness of this more than a mathematical keycold calculations of faults. I think no matter what the pinches and smites about the art and language, the pursuit of grace is something that the Poet and Critique should always share in common. [This message has been edited by Errandghost (09-13-2003 12:18 AM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
"What you think is honest and useful/mindworthy may seem all utterly paltry to someone if it isn't conveyed through a little grace." I agree Errand. But this misses the point. "Grace" isn't a necessary ingredient for a critique (take Bloom, for instance ... lol). Persuading the writer to take notice of what you write as a critic is another issue entirely as i tried to point out earlier - and in that respect "grace" may well be helpful. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Most often it takes me much toil to get words to flow even just normally let alone eloquently. I make ammendments, edit and delete so often that by the time I am done the critique the seeming grace and soundness I have found now feel to unnaturally raised to convince me that I should post it as a critique. Only too rarely do I find a brightwhile of expression where I feel an actual grace in my nature. This is one of the reasons why I have come to the belief that true grace is necessary. And one of the reasons I have decided I probably shouldn't pursue writing or critiquing Poetry. Grace is not true grace if it is more aspired, desired and forced than natural, it is artificial. The best expressions are graceful because they are able, the worst are unnaturally and forcedly graceful. [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-13-2003 12:20 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Blah. You either write or you don't. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Brad - coward (see, I finally remembered how the winky smilie thingy worked after all these years).Ok Essorant/Errant Lets do it! “Most often it takes me much toil to get words to flow even just normally let alone eloquently. I make ammendments, edit and delete so often that by the time I am done the critique the seeming grace and soundness I have found now feel to unnaturally raised to convince me that I should post it as a critique. Only too rarely do I find a brightwhile of expression where I feel an actual grace in my nature. This is one of the reasons why I have come to the belief that true grace is necessary. And one of the reasons I have decided I probably shouldn't pursue writing or critiquing Poetry. Grace is not true grace if it is more aspired, desired and forced than natural, it is artificial. The best expressions are graceful because they are able, the worst are unnaturally and forcedly graceful” Blimey! Where to start. Perhaps with the “probably”. Seize on the “probably” Rob. The probably means you are still open to persuasion yeah? ... I’ll take that slight pause as a “yeah”. So first off, let’s have a straightforward plain english/american definition of “GRACE”. Or maybe several. Any takers? |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Grace = unmerited favor Sounds like Open! Jim |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
lol - tssk tssk Jim .. I was trying to be serious for once .essorant I’m trying to understand where you are coming from on this, as in why you feel that lack of spontaneity or "grace" should be a bar to composing a useful critique. what exactly do you mean by "grace"? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Rob, I think grace is a naturalness of artfulness. I don't know for sure. It just makes me feel bad sometimes. Someone said to me directly once: You won't ever get very far in this world if you may not communicate well. That is such a truth. Studying english and poetry for me have also been an attempt to salve communication aches that I've lived with all my life. But really the same aches and inabilities just rear their ugly forms some more and make me to notice more how when the space to edit and ammend isn't there, the ability to communicate with any grace isn't there either. Oh well. I feel a bit better to have confessed my artificialness. [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-14-2003 12:55 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Essorant “artful” - relevant definition = “performed with art or skill” Grace = “performed in a natural i.e. unforced, way with art or skill” I can buy that. Leave it aside for a minute. I don’t know you, but I’m assuming from your comments that English isn’t your first language or that you have struggled for some other reason to express yourself in written English. It’s puzzling though that you seem to be making some kind of linkage between your difficulty with English, your ability to critique other’s work and the more esoteric concept of “grace”. I think frankly that you are making things too complicated for yourself. Try this: Simplicity - Clarity - Grace None of these imo are mutually exclusive. In fact I’d go further and say that they are complimentary. I think you should cease to worry about your inner being and simply WRITE (as Brad said). Forget about editing and amending. Forget about using unusual vocabulary and syntax. Forget about “confessions” of inadequateness. From what I’ve seen you are more than capable of putting together a straightforward commentary on a poem. You might just find that if you simply write what you feel in a CLEAR SIMPLE way then your words will come over in a natural way with skill i.e. GRACEFULLY. What is ungraceful about writing: “I like your poem because of the wonderful image in line 4 which reminds me vividly of holidays in the sun”? Oh and by the way - your friend who made the comment about communicating well and getting on in the world forgot to tell you that you get much further even if your communication isn't perfect if you communicate SINCERELY and HONESTLY. Which is why in this forum I think generally people would prefer to be told the plain unvarnished truth rather than silly platitutes however well dressed in flowery language . |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
lol hilarious After i posted above i checked caterina's poem to find a clear concise useful critique by you! So what was so hard about that!? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Simplicity - Clarity - Grace" Thank you. I think you are right. And some favorite passages of works I have read express similar things. Gertrude to Polonius in Shakespeare's Hamlet: "More matter, less art" "........truth and clarity need little art in delivery" (I forget where I read this!) "Reason, however able, cool at best, Cares not for service, or but serves when prest, Stays 'till we call, and then not often near; But honest instinct comes a volunteer, Sure never to o'er-shoot but just to hit; While still too wide or short is human wit; Sure by quick nature happiness to gain, Which heavier reason labours at in vain. This too serves always, reason never long; One must go right, the other may go wrong." From The second stance in Epistle III of Pope's "Essay on Man." Perhaps I was just reasoning about it too much. [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-15-2003 02:28 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Essorant Well then - if Pope and Shakespeare say it then it must be right! ... but tarry yet awhile - Shakespeare at least says more or less everything so why take any notice of any particular thing he or his characters say? And yet, and yet ... he is probably right, at least my instinct says he is ... lol. Enough! Just write what YOU think is right. Right? R |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Yea, who knows, they might've had the most unnatural and picky devices for getting to their graces sometimes. I don't believe many poets of old didn't keep history books wide open, poems by other poets, notes, dictionaries, grammar-books, maps, letters, and curiosities of all kinds right about them while they wrote in their studies, or chambers etc. They wanted all those direct influences and references very intimatly with them. Some times I think not of a poem but just a phrase or line that seems very poetic to me and I write it down and keep to use if I feel it has relevance when I write a poem eventually. That seems a bit unnatural and odd to me sometimes but that is the way some things come; Not all at once. Do you have any oddities like that? Any you may admit? [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-17-2003 02:23 AM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
"Some times I think not of a poem but just a phrase or line that seems very poetic to me and I write it down and keep to use if I feel it has relevance when I write a poem eventually. That seems a bit unnatural and odd to me sometimes but that is the way some things come; Not all at once. Do you have any oddities like that? Any you may admit?" I have plenty of "oddities", but none I'm about to admit to you in an open forum or anywhere else for that matter . However writing down phrases and lines for later use I regard as perfectly normal, and I'd be surprised if most poets don't do it all the time.What seems very "unnatural and odd" to me is the idea of a poet sitting down with a blank sheet of paper, writing a poem and then posting it off for publication! (Ted Hughes' "Thought Fox" doesn't count!) R |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Look at Virgil; It is said he commenced his epic The Aeneid around 32 BC. After five years Augustus requested to see some of his work and couldn't because it was still considered too inchoate in its stages of creation. Virgil visited all the places described in his work to perfect it and still wasn't completely finished when he died (19 BC), which must've been why he requested it be burned. Back then, poets were able to be poets more wholly, and were determined more wholly to be poets. They dedicated them more completely to the art. Today neither the lifestyle nor mentalities put poetry on a pedestal high enough for it to flourish anything like it did in earlier times. Many poets simply go to hastedly. Some actually do well hastedly but if they took much more time, imagine they would do surpassing well. I have a hard time with the rest of my life being the way it is ever to get that hurriedness out of my system when I sit down and write. But I must always if I want to write anything decently. I hope someday poets are able to be poets more devoutly. Today it becomes very flippant and superficial and sometimes based on the best route of getting one's work published. What poetry needs is more time to study and practice without being so divided. When it find that again it I believe it will gain an altitude it deserves much more. [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-17-2003 01:07 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
The whole world seems in a great hurry today. There is too much emphasis on having material things which causes us to spend too much of our time earning the money to purchase same. I have seen that change much even over the last 30 years. I don't know that poetry will ever be very important generally again. Times and attitudes have changed too much for that. I absolutely agree though that if you are going to write then you should take the time necessary to do it right. I see way too much posted even in this supposedly Critical Analysis forum that was done very hastily. It irritates me when I spend my time to review one of those and the the author brags that he didn't invest any of his own time writing or perfecting it first. I am not a very good writer but before I present anything for others to read, I do make every effort, to the best of my ability, to make it as good as I can. I salute anyone who does the same. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Just bumping this back up for more discussion? |
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