Your thoughts on this, respectfully requested

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serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

0 posted 2007-02-22 08:56 AM

quote:
one cannot have both compassion and innocence

from:
Marigolds
By Eugenia W. Collier

And to save some time--

from dictionary.com

compassion: com·pas·sion

Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhm-pash-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.
–verb (used with object)

And?

innocence in·no·cence

Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-uh-suhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the quality or state of being innocent; freedom from sin or moral wrong.
2. freedom from legal or specific wrong; guiltlessness: The prisoner proved his innocence.
3. simplicity; absence of guile or cunning; naiveté.
4. lack of knowledge or understanding.
5. harmlessness; innocuousness.
6. chastity.
7. an innocent person or thing.
8. bluet (def. 1).
9. blue-eyed Mary.

So are these two qualities actually incompatible characters, mutually exclusive of one another and  incapable of co-existance in one entity simultaneously?

I am having some difficulty remembering the "innocence" portion of my life, so it's hard for me to base this one on personal experience.

Thanks in advance.

And oops, perhaps someone could help point out some distinction between innocence and naivete':

and yep, from dictionary.com:

naivete  na·ive·té

Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[nah-eev-tey, -ee-vuh-tey, -eev-tey, -ee-vuh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the quality or state of being naive; natural or artless simplicity.
2. a naive action, remark, etc.

Also, na·ïve·té, na·ive·te.

Okay.

I'm done now. (I think.

)

Ron

Administrator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-05-19

Posts 8669
Michigan, US

1 posted 2007-02-22 10:06 AM

Is compassion possible in the absence of empathy? Can you feel sorry for someone without first having felt some semblance of what they feel?

I don't know. I suspect, following that train of thought, that innocence thus would end, if not still in the womb, certainly very soon after exiting it. Pain is pervasive.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

2 posted 2007-02-22 11:20 AM

I'm confused too.

I'm remembering an incident, actually, they were recurring incidents with my son, who, at the age of about ten or eleven months would cry when we watched Mr. Bill cartoons.

I'm not sure if his was an empathetic response or not--but I'm pretty sure Zach's head was never knocked off, or his body smushed, or his mouth washed down a drain while he said "Ooooooooooooooooo Nooooooooooooo".

?

So I thought, maybe that was just, well, he liked Mr. Bill and didn't like to see him go away.

But then soon after, my husband I realized that my son couldn't tolerate watching football either. He cried. I mean, this was one very sensitive baby. (Things have changed since then. Nod.)

I'm never going to know if his reaction was an empathetic response, or sympathetic, or a hypersenstivity to violence--or WHAT.

I've asked him, but he doesn't remember WHY he cried, and um, he couldn't speak back then to let us in on it.

Anyhow, this is something that I thought about all night. (Granted, it doesn't take much to keep me awake all night, but still...)

I think it is interesting.

but I could use a nap, m'self. (I have been broken off the bottle feeding for the time being, and this Ferberizing technique really sucks.)

I wouldn't mind a cuddle and a "noo noo" either. *laughing*

Read me a story...

sing me a song? Rock me to sleep!!!

Mysteria

Member Laureate

since 2001-03-07

Posts 18328
British Columbia, Canada

3 posted 2007-02-22 12:16 PM

Karen I have an 8-year old here that would prove that lady just so wrong. Time will change it I suppose, but for now, she would sure show that you can indeed display both innocence and compassion, at the same time. I believe she is a fan of yours as well.

Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis

since 2002-12-27

Posts 8348
Florida

4 posted 2007-02-22 01:41 PM

Since Autumn was around 9 months old whenever she resisted my hugs I would pretend to cry and she would hug me to make me better.

Compassion...

She is innocent...

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

Stephanos

Member Elite

since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

5 posted 2007-02-22 08:38 PM

I think that empathy and innocence are two different matters.

The only relationship I see, is that those who have "lost their innocence" can sometimes be more sympathetic to people whose suffering is connected with their own enslavement to vice or personal failure. Of course this is no guarantee, just a tendency I have seen. Sometimes very "non-innocent" people are very harsh toward the faults of others too.

But, to get back to your question ... I would like to ask you, 1) How would innocence impede compassion? and 2) How would guilt increase it? I'm not getting the relationship here. Ron said pain was pervasive, and so it is ... But does guilt always accompany pain?

Stephen.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

6 posted 2007-02-22 11:10 PM

My question wasn't exactly a question.

I was asking for thoughts on a premise espoused by an author.

(And there ain't nothing wrong with a premise Ed Grimm)

This is just one of those statements, that when said with a certain tone of authority sound TRUE, but I question everything.

And I didn't mean to bring out the defensive nurturers--egads, I know they are tough--I'm one of 'em!

But I'll think more on this. Hopefully not all night this time though.

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

7 posted 2007-02-23 06:51 AM

This one went over my head

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

8 posted 2007-02-23 09:38 AM

Caring for others, wanting their pain to stop -- that's seen at just about any age I can think of (utter insensitivity at any age as well, but that's a different story).

So, innocence just another word for self-centered here?

Poet deVine

Administrator

Member Seraphic

since 1999-05-26

Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley

9 posted 2007-02-23 02:39 PM

Oh my yes you can! Compassion is at it's purest when the compassionate person is also innocent because there is no 'background' for the compassion..it's without prejudice or previous experience. I think compassion is in all of us when we're born. 'Don't be a sissy' is told to many young boys when they cry about something (feeling compassion) so in that instance I think they are made to feel compassion is a wrong feeling to have towards anyone/thing.

There 2 cents! And now I've only got a penny for your thoughts. It's a threepenny day!

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

10 posted 2007-02-23 05:55 PM

I think I've misread it. Yes, showing concern for others is possible in infants (My six month old showed that last night), but compassion, while we don't necessarily have to equate it with empathy, is perhaps dependent on an understanding on the complexities of life?

If one understands the complexities, contradiction, temptations etc. of real life, then doesn't innocence disappear by definition?

Kitherion
Member

since 2006-08-01

Posts 181
Johannesburg

11 posted 2007-02-27 03:31 AM

Well, if i've ever been confused, now is the time...

But, still a really interesting subject. I suppose it's like saying that ignorance is bliss (or something similar anyway), and that knowledge without power is nothing?

But, since I'm supposed to behave and stick to the thread

I'll try and be usefull ion my addition of comments. Firstly, by all of you using your own children as examples (thinking of writing Y'all, but then thought against it) you are actually becoming biased.

I say this because others might not view your children persay, and innocent. For instance should you take your child to a sub saharan (spelling I know...) country and raise him/her there, they would not be considered innocent becuse they have not performed/conformed to the certain social standards that one is expected to keep. This however, is not to say that the child is not compassionate...

CONFUSED< CONFUSED< CONFUSED

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallwed be thy name..."

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

12 posted 2007-02-27 11:33 AM

Thank you all for your contributions on this, admittedly very general assessment, which was indeed taken out of context from the story.

I've come to the conclusion that the innocent are indeed capable of empathy, but the part where I am stuck, is that I know of more than a few adults who seem incapable of compassion or empathy.

So now I'm left wondering the argument of nature and nurture again.

I think that some people are born with the capacity of empathy and compassion. I don't believe that everyone is, though. I also think that circumstances of life and upbringing can eradicate that particular personality trait as well.

So I think I'm stuck in the middle again.

Nature AND nurture.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

13 posted 2007-02-27 07:08 PM

But the quote doesn't say that the loss of innocence leads to compassion, it says that one cannot both be innocent and compassionate.

Necessary but not sufficient.

The more I think about it, the more I think it doesn't have to do with empathy at all. It has to do with an appreciation of complexity.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

14 posted 2007-02-27 07:33 PM

I think that's pretty much the gist of the story too. (It's a quick read, and online somewhere.)

It's just after a few days of thinking on something, I'm not sure if I still appreciate the complexity. And it's always the smallest things that vex me.

Which in itself, is admirable. I actually like things that are deceptively simple, yet intricate. Or vice versa.

Tell me to shaddup.

I quit making sense years ago.

*laughing*

Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis

since 2002-12-27

Posts 8348
Florida

15 posted 2007-02-28 09:52 AM

I realize that sometimes things sound so much better in my head...

With that said, I didn't mean to imply that MY grandchild was innocent..my point only being that a child, usually considered innocent, can be empathetic..in my opinion.

I find it odd at times that I have to clarify that something in this kind of venue is my opinion. Very little that comes out of my mouth/head/heart is anything but my opinion.

That, I think, is why it can be so difficult to understand something such as the topic..there are no hard and fast facts.

I honestly don't know how I managed to botch my point but I hope that clears it up...

and Karen??? I miss you...just update me please???

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

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