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Christians, What Do You Think?
| Philosophy 101 |
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Christians, What Do You Think? |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa 
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http://www.exposetheleft.com/2006/04/page/8/ Okay, Look at the Title: Troop Hating Church Confronted by H&C. You have to scroll down a bit. Here you can download or view the video. [This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (04-28-2006 03:20 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"The page cannot be found"  |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Try it now through another website. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
I was really hoping to hear the thoughts of Christians upon watching this video... I am quite curious to what Christians think about this particular denomination. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Still couldn't access it. Looks like a website of a Christian rock band. Maybe you could copy and paste what you want us to see. Jim |
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Ringo 
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Actually, Dream Theater is one of the best Progressive Rock bands on the market (for my tastes, anyhow.) and have not that much- if anything- to do with Christian anything. "... the rest is silence" |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
It is an interview with a woman from Westboro Baptist Church. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
I will try it again later. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Okay, I found another link for the video. the URL can be found on my original post of this thread. I am really curious as to what Christians and non-Christians think about this particular denomination of Christianity and its followers thoughts on God. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
It really works now (Scroll down a bit to find the video about this Baptist denomination). And Essorant provided a good link to find out more about this Christian denomination. http://www.exposetheleft.com/2006/04/page/8/ "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Clearly, God has revealed this to them. How can I argue with that? Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I think I know Jim well enough to tell when he's being facetious. In Ezekiel 33:11 God told Israel through the prophet Ezekiel "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?". As true as some of the observations of Fred Phelps may be about the sinful backslidden state of America, the difference between his and a genuinely prophetic voice can be summarized in the unrestrained glee with which judgement is not only described, but wished upon others. Though there are some very poignant passages in the Bible where God's anger seems to be so fierce as to hide his mercy at times ... I don't think I've ever heard such a tone of deriding, mocking, and ridicule come even from the staunchest Old Testament prophets. Even Jermemiah was known as the "weeping prophet", not the snarling prophet. And as for Christians, Jesus himself should be our example. Even when prophetically pronouncing judgement over a nation which rejected God, he was weeping as it were, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!". Does this sound like Fred Phelps? Paul warned in 1 Corinthians that one could possess much truth and faith, and yet be nothing, for lack of love. And I just don't see enough tears along side of what these people are saying. They are obviously what Paul describes as "clanging cymbals". Brassy, reverberating, and lifeless. And yes, as angry as that makes me, they too need prayer more than anything else. Because self-righteousness, scripturally speaking, incurs more divine wrath than the crude, more common, and less-religious sorts of "sinners". Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"Clearly, God has revealed this to them. How can I argue with that?" ~ I don't think you can. How can you? "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
JCP: quote: I don't get it. Are you saying that you agree with Phelps? It's quite easy to see that his approach, his "spirit" as it were, is not in line with the teachings of scripture. Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"I don't get it. Are you saying that you agree with Phelps?" ~ No, I am not saying I agree, yet I am not saying I disagree with (and I just don't believe in saying "Phelps"), but with this particular denomination. Afterall, all denominations have started by an agreement with ONE man. ~ And who am I to say that God isn't furious with a false christian nation? He is the same today as He was yesterday - and at times He has been downright furious enough to let His wrath be known. I mean, he even killed innocent first-born babies when a certain Pharoah batteld Moses. ~ And for any interpretation you provide to argue against what this denomination is teaching, there is other scripture that supports it (and no, I am not getting into interpretation of scripture with you, your mind is made up Stephanos  )."It's quite easy to see that his approach, his "spirit" as it were, is not in line with the teachings of scripture." ~ To you and to others whom have been taught and raised as you have. Not to others. A person's worldview definitely shapes his or her theological (among other things) thoughts. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: You may consider this a trifle, but it's not a "denomination". It's Waynesboro Baptist Church, an independent church. That's a much smaller phenomenon than a denomination ... and seeing the extreme and bitter nature of it all, it is easy to understand why. quote: Again, it's not a denomination. But that's exactly what I am asserting, that there is no body of scripture to support the character of that "ministry", without a proof text approach (taking things out of their whole context). And even then a lot of gall and acerbic "addition" would have to be made. quote: That's one problem, you don't seem willing to try to defend what you say from scripture in a comprehensive way. Rather you're painting a picture (not with scripture, but with surface "brushings" of paraphrased bible) which would suggest (to the non-reader) that the bible is too ambiguous for certainty. But that only works as long as you can keep things nebulous. quote: Do you deny the possibility that a person's theological thoughts may also shape his worldview? And also that the Bible may have an independent theology of it's own, to be apprehended by us, rather than constructed by us? Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (04-29-2006 10:39 PM).] |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"You may consider this a trifle, but it's not a "denomination". It's Waynesboro Baptist Church, an independent church. That's a much smaller phenomenon than a denomination ... and seeing the extreme and bitter nature of it all, it is easy to understand why." ~ All denominations start out in the same manner as this one - as a small denomination. And as for their nature, let me ask you this... have you ever attended Baptist or Pentacostal services in the Bible Belt? "Again, it's not a denomination." ~ Again, it is a denomination, albeit very local as of now. "But that's exactly what I am asserting, that there is no body of scripture to support the character of that "ministry", without a proof text approach (taking things out of their whole context). And even then a lot of gall and acerbic "addition" would have to be made." ~ Your way of interpreting the Bible, may be the mainstream's truth, but it is based on man's interpretation, and a majority opinion does not make for - It is our way or the highway. "That's one problem, you don't seem willing to try to defend what you say from scripture in a comprehensive way. Rather you're painting a picture (not with scripture, but with surface "brushings" of paraphrased bible) which would suggest (to the non-reader) that the bible is too ambiguous for certainty. But that only works as long as you can keep things nebulous." ~ Brushings of paraphrased bible? Most christian churches where I used to worship paraphrased the bible all of the time. "Do you deny the possibility that a person's theological thoughts may also shape his worldview? And also that the Bible may have an independent theology of it's own, to be apprehended by us, rather than constructed by us?" ~ I will answer that question by telling you this... A particular tribe in Africa has their own truths, their own God(s), their worldview about all matters of life are completely foreign to yours. If a missionary is sent to that particular tribe in order to save them from themselves, and some become scared of the thought of burning forever in a hellfire and therefore accept the missionary's theological position, then I would answer, yes to both of your questions. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
JCP and Stephan: I wasn't being facetious - I'm simply cutting to the chase. Many people claim direct revelation from God to support their theological positions. The problem is that, almost without exception, God seems to say one thing to one person and then says the opposite thing to another. Special revelation is most certainly a very, very rare thing and, for that reason, I believe most people who claim to have received such direct knowledge from God are most often self-deluded. This self delusion provides a convenient escape from reason. "You do not have the Holy Spirit" or "You are not a true believer" so "How could you understand?" Who knows. Maybe I do and maybe I don't. How can you know one way or another without putting my assertions to the test and encouraging me to explain my positions clearly and honestly? How can I know the same about you? So, in truth, I can "argue with that," I simply cannot persuade those who have allowed themselves to be deceived in such ways. So if I choose to engage such folks in debate, it is for the benefit of the audience, rather than my interlocutor. Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim, I understand your point of view. However I think the litmus test for "special revelation" is whether or not it is essentially harmonious with the general teachings of scripture. For example, I believe that the wrath of God is real and is at work in America today ... The premise is correct. However, Phelps as a prophetic voice is doubtful. Why? Because in spirit he "looks" nothing like the biblical prophets. There are patterns which will never change. Even when Jesus came, he honored the prophets, and affirmed them. I've read that Fred Phelps constantly compares America with the apostate Israel of the Old Testament (not a bad comparison in many ways). But could you ever imagine even one of the prophets saying "God hates Israel"? Or, more incredible still, how about Jesus saying that? So I guess I'm not as doubtful about you, about the possibility of cogently refuting such tendencies, using scripture in its context. How effective will that be in changing their minds? That's not my part to worry about. The true prophetic voice was called to simply say it, heeded or not. And I'm confident that the bitterness of heart, (what kind of people they are becoming) proves that they really know that it's not a right approach ... that they do so against the whole counsel of scripture. But it's not consistency they are looking for anyway, when sinful human anger is their fruit of choice. But yes, this thread is definitely for those who are curious themselves about this form of heresy. Stephen. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: That still doesn't make one church a "denomination". Actually the name "Baptist" in "Westboro Baptist Church" indicates (whether formal or informal) an association with a definite denomination. But the practice and teaching of this church is only a caricature of what usually denotes Baptist faith and practice. But if you insist on calling it a "denomination", I won't argue the point any longer. Because more importantly than this church not being in accord with Baptist standards, is it's prominent deviation from a biblical pattern ... the wrath of God and the austere words of the prophets notwithstanding. quote: Yes, I live in the Bible Belt. And the very worst examples of Baptist or Pentecostal services, don't even come close. quote: I really don't think it is. Actually the mainstream interpretation as of late seems to go light on speaking of sin and judgement. Feel good religion, and political correctness seem to be gaining too much ground, to be honest. There is much out of balance on both sides of the truth. So I wouldn't say that my interpretation is necessarily "mainstream". But even if it were, the question would still be whether or not it agreed with scripture in its wider context. You can't debunk something merely because it's popular or unpopular. And you haven't heard me criticizing Westboro Baptist Church on those grounds either. While you do see the fallacy of judging according to size alone (sometimes ... for you have slammed the majority for being itself), you don't have any replacement standard with which to judge rightly, as long as you insist on spiritual agnosticism. [Edited to remove personal questions not relevant to the thread. Please limit comments and questions to the post and not the poster. Ron ] [This message has been edited by Ron (05-03-2006 02:32 AM).] |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ron, Can I at least ask Mike what his response would have been if I had agreed with and defended Fred Phelps? I think that's very relevant. When someone tells me my answer is wrong, I want to know what he thinks the right answer is ... or whether he is trying to say (through one more thread) that there are no right answers, in which case I ask "Why post in the first place"? These questions I raise are related to his views, not merely his person. Stephen. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
"Why post in the first place?" is exactly the kind of question I'd like to see avoided, Stephen. People don't need to have their motives questioned, and when push comes to shove, it doesn't matter why an issue is raised. Short of trolling to purposely pick fights, we shouldn't care. The thread isn't about Mike or about Mike's views versus Stephen's views. It's ostensibly about Fred Phelps. So talk about Fred Phelps or any issues that relate to Fred Phelps. I haven't and probably won't follow the link, so have little idea how wide an umbrella is needed to cover the issue, but let's please avoid making it about the participants of the discussion. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Really? I thought it was about "Christians What do you think"? Seriously, very little has been said about the subject matter of Fred Phelps, except by me. Mostly (if you'll kindly review) Mike's replies have centered around my lack of grounds for "what I think". The ambiguity of the title, coupled with the kinds of responses thus far, I think you can at least appreciate my confusion about what the purpose of the thread actually is. I can understand your insistence here, but it should go both ways I think. If Mike wants to talk about the subject matter of the video, or WBC, or Fred, then I'm in. Otherwise I think I'm done. Not meaning to be disrespectful to you Ron, just want you to see where I'm coming from. Carry on ... Stephen. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Questioning grounds for comments is still acceptable in a philosophical discussion, Stephen. That's not the same as questioning motivations. And it does go both ways. You just don't see the numerous posts completely deleted because, unlike yours, they couldn't be salvaged with an edit. If you feel the thread is ambiguous or poorly focused you can choose to not participate. As I said previously, I decided to not even follow the proffered link. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Impersonality and not questioning any motives is something for robots, not humans. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
~ What do other Christians think about this particular denomination is what I meant. ~ I corelated the film clip to the thread about respecting others religious beliefs even though when not in front of those faces the respect is not to be found. ~ It appears that this particular Christian church is indeed truthful and honest about their beliefs, which I find refreshing. Too many times while living in the south and attending either a Baptist or Pentacostal service, the preachers would lambaste all religions other than Christianity (also included some of those too were included, like the Catholics). I simply call it being two-faced and lying. ~ Besides that, I believe God, in this day and age, is sick and tired of the killing of humans by humans and just may using this church to prophesize is anger. Who am I or anybody else for that matter to judge? "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I haven't read the entire thread but am wondering... why are you only concerned about what Christians think???? I am not a Christian. Are my views/thoughts therefore less relevant? I am not being facetious here, just wondering....as I have sometimes been ignored in the past when I have mentioned I am not Christian, not Jew, not Muslim, not Hindu... am I therefore nothing to you? Just a curiosity Q, as I am fine with who I am..... |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
JCP: quote: If you think that God is "sick and tired" of any behavior and is therefore revealing his anger at sin, then haven't you already "judged"? I'm still wondering why you feel it necessary (especially after saying things like that) to play the relativist. In other words, why make reasoned-out statements, and then end up refuting others and inadvertently yourself with the "who are we to say" line? Aside from that, what about the distinction between communicating truth out of love, versus communicating it out of spite? I have two young children, and believe you me, I can tell the difference between an honest informant, and a tattler. When I was in school, I could tell the difference between the classroom jerk who would jeer me to shame for an unzipped fly, and the friend who would rather pull me aside. You can tell when someone's got your best interest in mind. The clues usually lie in mannerisms and methods, and sometimes just a look into their eyes. Such clues are sometimes subtle, sometimes not. But they are usually plainly seen if one is patient. It's that kind of thing that gives the Phelp clan away. So Christians can believe in divine judgement against sin, and even a state called "hell", and still share them with true concern, without the revilement. That doesn't make them dishonest. I for one believe in such things, and have never attempted to hide it. But I hope I have held such beliefs responsibly rather than wielding them like a stun gun. But regardless of what your opinion of me is ... I would like to see you address this distinction in the thread. Is the problem always with the "truth" or with the spirit behind the announcement thereof? Action aside, there's still a right way and a wrong way to do anything. And it's exactly the same with beliefs. (I'm not saying however that beliefs are unimportant) Stephen |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Although all you who claim to be christian exist in the world of your own, why can anyone tell me is it that hypocrisy exists within you? Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Are you asking why Christians still encounter the problem of sin, in their own lives? Stephen. |
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Slater1987 New Member
since 2006-08-02
Posts 2 |
why you ask in your own lives. what about the lives of others , what of the life that we are supposed to live. we live in a single solitary world of deception and lies that surround our lives, why are you so blind sighted (no offence). kitherion believes that we are blinded with all these so called promises and truths and he is right to believe so. when last has there been a miracle that is recorded and not judged |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
" Are you asking why Christians still encounter the problem of sin, in their own lives? " Why do you think that this question relates to sin? I was actually refering to the fact that Christians in general are blinded to the real world. They seem to exist within themselves and forget that reality is somewhere out there. If Christians are so eager to help people, pray tell inform me why they believe in a firery eternale hell, for someone who was not Christian? I am not trying to insult any specific religion (especially not Christianity) but I am just curious as to why a lovong God would send you to such torment. Blessings Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Kitherion quote: I don't believe so (although, lets try and keep in mind, that no human is perfect)and here's why... what is it that makes a person a Christian in your eyes? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Kitherion: quote: You're right that this is a gross over-generalization, as the behavior you describe probably has it's roots in selfishness and individualism, which the Bible itself is very critical of. To what degree Christians or non-Christians are self-absorbed and "blinded to the real world" is debatable, and actually I decline, lest this discussion lapse into childish ad hominem. quote: Why would "helping people" and believing in the doctrine of Hell be antithetical? That doesn't make any logical sense. The question is whether Hell a reality or not. Christians assert that it is, based upon the teaching of Jesus. Presumably part of the Christian responsibility, in addition to humanitarian efforts, is to "help" people escape the reality of hell (on Earth, and in eternity) by preaching the Gospel. There are several reasons why Christians might believe in Hell ... 1) Biblical teaching, especially the words of Christ. and 2) human conscience and premonition of "Judgement Day". Many many cultures outside of Christian have anticipated and expressed a belief in a day of reckoning. If the Christian teaching that we have "sin" is true, then the human conscience is a testimony of the possibility of hell, since a large segment of humanity has experienced the raging of the conscience in an accusatory tone. Countless sleepless nights of regret, Lady Macbeth's bloody hands, and the gnawing guilt of Dostoyevsky's characters, are just a few examples where the agonies of hell have been (knowingly or unwittingly) anticipated. quote: Believe you me, the teaching is not palatable, nor easily digested, but it is certainly not as simple as thinking "God would send everyone to Heaven if he really loved them". The kind of teaching we have is that it is our sin, which makes us deserving and destined for such an eternity. It is God who has gone through great pains (remember the Cross of Golgotha) to redeem us, and make sure we know that we don't have to enter that awful state. It's good to think we might be able to decline "Digitalhell's" invitation to "abandon all hope". You must understand that if salvation only comes through the goodness and mercy of God (who is the author, source, and creator of all good things), then it is absurd to think it could be done without him. It's like wanting your thirst quenched, as long as H20 isn't involved. I can assure you that the Christian doctrine asserts two things ... 1) God will allow no one to such a fate, lightly or glibly. 2) God has a desire for all men to repent, and believe the truth that they might be saved. These truths allow us to "trust" God with those who have never heard the Gospel (and so have never consciously rejected it). For though we do not know God's plan with such as them, we can know that he is merciful. Stephen |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Stephanos: I still cannot believe that I loving God would do such a thing. I do not believe that all good people go to heaven either as you see that in the bible (Reveleation 14 : 1 to 4)it says that only 144 000 go to heaven ("and I saw and look the lamb standing upon mount Zion and with him was a great crowd of 144 000 having his name and the name of his father written upon their foreheads") and no where in the bible does it mention anything about hell. Blessings Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Kitherion quote: Actually the teaching is that all penitent sinners who believe in and recieve the grace of God go to heaven ... not "good people". I think we're all ruled out of that elitist category. quote: So why don't you likewise believe that Jesus' parable about the wise and unwise virgins teaches that only 5 people will be saved? A book like Revelation is rife with symbolism. and 144,000 is symbolic either of the literal nation of Israel in the end times, or the larger "Israel" of God's people Jew or Gentile. For Israel came from 12 sons of Jacob or "Israel", had 12 tribes. Jesus chose 12 Apostles, etc ... 12 is a number that speaks of the Government of God. Multiply 12 X 12, and what do you get? 144. And thousands, in a symbolic use of numbers, is augmentation ... a way of stating a very large, but unspecified number. This is a group of people whose character is revealed by their particular number, not their literal head-count. Stephen. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim, sniff sniff, do I smell someone who hasn't been around here in a while. Or is it my imagination? Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I just realized what you mean  [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-04-2006 06:19 PM).] |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Not only is your reply implicating your own ideas into the bible Stephanos, but you also seem to belive that the bibles figuarative meanings posses no relavance. Since you belive this, pray tell inform me why Jesus refered to his other sheep? And what about the Great Crowd mentioned in Revalation 14? This is something that I feel strongly about, so apologies for my abrasiveness. Blessed Be Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"sniff sniff, do I smell someone who hasn't been around here in a while. Or is it my imagination?" ~ It was your imagination. Think again. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Stephanos: "God (who is the author, source, and creator of all good things)...." I just could not resist, Stephanos. God is indeed the creator of all things........ALL THINGS......it is humans who have formed the judgment of bad and good. God is the source of all creation. ALL. And weren't we informed....."Judge not, lest ye be judged." *smile* Indeed, if God only created good things.....then either God did not make any evil or there was a god who did.....get my drift? (Under your supposition, that is.) And if that is so, then God created that god, right? However, if God only created good things....then you see, everything is good. *wink* |
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icebox Member Elite
since 2003-05-03
Posts 4383in the shadows |
"...madness doesn’t come from staring into the face of God, it is caused by the awareness of what is staring back." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Iliana: quote: The belief that God created all things good, and that the spoiling principle of sin was brought into creation by others, does not necessarily mean that God created evil or that he is to blame. In fact I know of nothing intrinsically evil, only good things used in wrong ways. Evil is not original, it is perversive. And perversion can be a problem for those who are given the choice to do so if they wish. God does take responsiblity for evil, however, as evidenced by what was done on the Cross. This is not God's true blame, but substitutionary responsibility which acts as if he were. I believe that Biblically, we have the distinction between "good and evil" which is determined by God's own nature in contrast to that which is unlike him in character. However the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was a temptation for humanity to decide for themselves right and wrong, apart from the character and authority of God. So ... scripturally speaking, making distinction is not our problem, but autonomous distinction which always goes askew. And taken in context "Judge not lest you be judged", certainly doesn't mean for us to make no distinctions of evil and good actions. It does, I think, mean to do our best to hate the sin while loving the sinner. (I'm not glibly suggesting that that's an easy thing to do- impossible I think apart from God's grace). It also means for us to be careful not to hold others to standards we wouldn't dream of holding ourselves to. Hope that clarifies. Stephen. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Kitherion, As a "sorcerer" and a practicer of Wicca, why do feel so strongly about what Jesus said, or about the Revelation? I'm just curious what angle you are coming from. I guess I'm just wondering why you seem zealous for a certain "interpretation" of a text you don't accept as revelatory. Of course I may be mistaken about your beliefs, that's why I want you to clarify. Thanks, Stephen. |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Stephanos, As I said in my topic "Sorcerors Unite" sorcery and Christainity have a lot in common. Wiccan's on the other hand still believe that all the religions have a place and that they should not be misrepresented. Blessings Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: I don't take that much for granted. There are glaring differences which forever separate the two. However, even if I granted you that, what does that have to do with any particular interpretation of Revelation, or of the words of Jesus? Are you trying to equate other "flocks" with things like Covens or Neo-Pagan religious groups? If so, then I now understand your interest. Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
[Deleted: decided it wasn't relevant enough] |
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