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Philosophy 101
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No immortal soul for man
| Philosophy 101 |
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No immortal soul for man |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
While the idea of man living on after death, in some other form, body or spirit, has been spoken of, philosophised by many peoples and cultures for unknown centuries, I unequivocally say, that only the God inspired Bible has the answer. And it is: MAN IS A LIVING SOUL. A soul does not enter man upon birth, or before birth, for that matter. Gen.2:7 reads, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" AV. "Being" is used for "soul" in many versions. After reading all the places in the Bible where the soul of man is referred to, one will find that the Scriptures relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, distress, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the soul. SOUL could be said to be the consciousness, the feelings, the desires produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body. Many times man is called a "soul" in the scriptures: Gen.12:5 "Abram took his wife and the souls they had gotten in Haran." 46:26 "All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt..." Acts 2:41 "They that gladly received the word were baptized: and the same day were added...about three thousand souls." 2:43 "And fear came upon every soul." And we say that today, like, "that poor soul." Many times the soul is said to die or be dead: Lev.24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul) shall surely be put to death." Num."Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous." Josh.10:28 "And that day Joshua.....smote it with the edge of the sword and the king thereof....and the souls therein." See also: Josh.10:30,32,35,37&39; 11:11; Jer.2:34 The soul can be destroyed, taken away: Lev.23:30 "And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, that same soul will I destroy from among his people." See 1 Ki.19:10; Psa.31:13; Prov.1:19; Ezek.22:27, 33:6; Acts 3:23 Since the soul is the sensation, the desire, the thoughts, the feelings and all that comprises consciousness, when man dies, the body is said to return to the dust, the soul is said to go to the unseen (Sheol or Hades), and the spirit returns to God who gave it. While Hades is equivalent to Sheol (see Acts 2:25-28, quoted from Psa.16:10), Sheol is translated "grave" half the time in the AV. All for now, Arnold |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I believe there is no life after death, that there is no God and that the bible is a book written by men for men without any supernatural intervention. I’ll either never know that I was right or I'll find out I was grossly mistaken, shortly after drawing my final breath. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
If the end result is the same, then the intermediate state question really isn't all that important. Jim |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"If the end result is the same, then the intermediate state question really isn't all that important." ~ Says whom and by what authority? "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Anyone afraid of dying peacefully in thier sleep? |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
I am not afraid to die at all. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Then you've never seen anyone die long and in pain. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Huan, I believe the long and in pain part is suffering, not dying. Someone could be afraid to suffer and not afraid to die. Also... I'm not sure I see the point of the original post, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does, either, since nobody's really talking about it. So you believe in God. Good for you. What are we supposed to be talking about? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Soul sleep...I'm tending more toward that point of view as oppossed to the more traditional understanding of a never-dying soul, a seperate entity, that lives on between the here-and-now and the resurrection. It seems to have more backing in scripture than the traditional view. Rest in peace...how many times have we seen that on tombstones and in funeral programs? Maybe they really do. Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God, but only he who sees takes off his shoes. |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
I'd like to continue on: The importance of understanding that man does not have an immortal soul; that he is a living soul, soul being the perception, the senses. When man dies it is said his body returns to the soil from which it came, his soul(his experiences, feelings, senses)is said to return to the unseen(disappear), and his spirit(power of life) returns to God who gave it. Therefore, when man goes to the grave, he goes to silence, where there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise. To live again he must be resurrected. The soul doesn't sleep. It is 'man' who is said to sleep the sleep of death. 'Sleep' being a metaphor for 'death'. See Job 14:12-12; Psa.13:3; Jer.51:57; Dan.12:1-2; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor.15:16-18. 51-57; 1 Thes.4:13-18. And, the most important point: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CONSCIOUS ETERNAL TORMENT of the unsaved. All for now, Bick |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
Arnold, What if the Bible is fiction? "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Unless the authors meant and acknowledged the bible to be fiction, it is not fiction, as simply as we are not the authors. [This message has been edited by Essorant (01-26-2006 12:42 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Modern men seem to have a hard to time fathoming how fiction, myth, truth, history and science may all be treated fairly equally in the same work. Today we tend to segregate and work things according to a predominate characteristic of only fiction, myth, truth, history, science, etc. but such segregation is not something that many early peoples necessarily did, or if they did, anywhere as fixedly as we do today. For them learning was learning. Everything contributed to it. And there was and still is a very strong virtue in that, without removing the virtue of segregating it sometimes too, that we today are so knobby about. The mistake to me is saying that only one gets to have any virtue at all, and the other gets none. That approach I think is weakness and disrespectful to other beliefs. [This message has been edited by Essorant (01-26-2006 02:42 PM).] |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: What does "authority" have to do with this particular question? Thoughtful Christians disagree as to the nature of death ... whether the soul is one and the same as bodily life, or whether it is distinct and separable. I tend to think that the weight of scripture leads to the latter (though I do believe in a bodily ressurrection). But like Jim, I am wondering what is so important about the question? Two believers could disagree on this, and yet be in agreement about the final corporeal ressurrection, Christ, piety, love, and a host of other things. It's an interesting debate (if it can be done peacably), but it's not very practical. And we've had the conversation / debate SO many times. It's a bit wearying, to be honest. But, if you would like to debate the reasons why we should even consider it central, or greatly important to Christian faith and practice ... we could do that. We haven't really had that discussion yet.  Susan: quote: Excuse me for answering (I know you addressed Arnold) ... But my first observation would be that, there would be no hope (other than bare philosophical speculation) for any life or existence beyond death. That's a bitter pill to swallow. And I know that some would say that my belief in Biblical Eternal Life is simply a childish denial of reality (no matter how dismal that reality turns out to be). But wish-fulfillment, as an explanation for Christian faith is suspect for two reasons. 1) The desire for life and purpose beyond the grave is so prevalent to our psychology, emotions, and general human make-up, that it almost seems like it was properly "meant to be". 2) Wish fulfillment can just as easily be applied to atheism. If there is a general awareness of God among people, and a general awareness of his moral law, then "wishing him away" would naturally be the response of some. The Judgement of God, and post-mortem consequences of living a sinful life, are at least as frightening as the prospects of final irrevocable death. Of course these aren't infallible "proofs", only clues in my mind. Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Maybe Arnold can answer why his thread's topic matter is important to discuss... "What does "authority" have to do with this particular question? Thoughtful Christians disagree as to the nature of death ... whether the soul is one and the same as bodily life, or whether it is distinct and separable." ~ Well, if the Bible is correct, false christianity is widespread as Satan deceives the whole world. So, there has to be Biblical truths and Biblical falsities, and the understanding of belief of either that separate the true Christians of the little flock and the false christians whom are deceived by the false angel appearing as a minister of righteousness. ~ And it is obvious that the immortal soul doctrine is based on pagan philosophies and doctrines of men, as those who worship believing these doctrines are worshiping in vain. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Susan, I would challenge you to read a book or two in the New Testament, say John, or Romans, and then after reading it, if you can still say it might be fiction, I would be surprised, and would like to know. Stephen, we did discuss this subject to some extent on the UR thread, but all you brought up, (against the many, many verses pointing out the soul, man's experience, his feelings, can die, be killed, because, man is a living soul), is the account of Saul talking to the apparition of Samuel, and the vision of Moses and Esias seen by Peter, James and John on the mount when Jesus was transfigured. You say that thoughtful Christians disagree as to the nature of death. That may be true, but as "thoughtful" I wonder. How can all the verses attributing "death, dying, destroyed, etc" to the soul (because man dies), be ignored? Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my research, I've concluded that the belief in an immortal soul was argued and promoted, primarily by St.Agustine. He accepted the Platonic philosophy wholeheartedly because, he argued, if the righteous are to enjoy eternal bliss, then the wicked must suffer eternal torment, and therefore, their soul must be immortal. Evidently, by his time, "aion or age" had become "forever" in most cases, and the adjective "aionios--age lasting, or pertaining to the ages" had become "eternal or everlasting". Why am I posting this topic? Because, in so many of Topics in this forum, the question of heaven and hell comes up. And how could a loving God send someone, say, who has never heard of Jesus, be sent to suffer for eternity? For those who know the Bible: In Romans 9, as well as other places in the OT, God is likened to a Potter and mankind the clay. He makes vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour. The vessels of dishonour are called "vessels of wrath fitted for deatruction". Did these 'vessels' choose to be this? Of course not. And the 'vessels of honour'. Is it because they willed to believe, to be saved? NO. Paul, in Rom.3:10-12, tells us, "There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." etc. Apart from God's mercy, no one would be saved. And what of the wicked vessels of wrath? They will indeed face God's wrath and power. On those on the earth during the last half of the tribulation period, there will be poured out the woes and plagues described in the book of Revelation. And, at the Great White Throne, Christ will judge all the wicked there, and as Paul says in Romans 2, Christ will judge according to truth, rendering every man according to his deeds: on them will come tribulation, anguish, indignation and wrath. And those whose name is not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. And I conclude with this: If the Potter can make vessels of dishonour, He can certainly remake them into vessels of honour when He wants. Bye for now, Bick |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
JCP: quote: What gain would Satan have in deceiving people into believing that the soul can be separate from the body ... when either way, ressurrection seems to be the Biblical focus of the end? The difference seems trivial. And as one who studies the Bible, I don't see the "gravity" that you see. The "true" church versus the "false" Christians, is a hard angle for you to argue from, as a non-believer. For, if I take your view seriously, ALL the Biblical doctrines become suspect. If no one can claim exclusive truth, then no one can say whether a man even has a soul ... much less what the nature of the soul is. Remember how absolutely you believe that truth is truly relative ... that "your truth" can never be "my truth", etc ... etc ...? From your perspective, what does authority have to do with it? If you say that you are merely arguing about the Bible, from it's own claims, (which I would still ask why? if you hold no vested interest in absolute Truth) I would reply that the Bible never makes such peripheral doctrinal points, central to one's salvation. Even Arnold feels, (in spite of his enthusiasm on this point) that there are Christians who disagree with him, who are going to be saved nonetheless. So if believers, in general, do not assume such an "extreme" gravity, concerning this doctrine (and NO, scripture has not been shown to do so either), why do you? If you say that the Bible is very sober, and grave, when speaking about the soul, I will agree. But a man's philosophical undertanding of the exact nature of the soul ... is not put on that same plane. The Savior of the soul, is much more important than surmisings about the soul. Arnold: quote: I really don't think I ignore them. I interpret them, and measure them in view of a larger context of scripture. I certainly don't deny death. I would like to ask you how you ignore all the verses which present the soul as separate from the body in certain instances? quote: If I'm being "thoughtless", I'll at least reserve the right to doubt as Paul did, when he mused "whether in the body or out of the body, I know not ... God knows" (2 Corinthians 12:13). Your view would make Paul's division of body and soul to be an error, and muddled thinking. Was does that do to apostolic doctrine, in your opinion? quote: How is that "Platonic"? Augustine's thinking differed from Platonism significantly. quote: Believing in "soul sleep" does not guarantee that someone will share your universalism. There are those who believe in soul sleep, who still believe that God will resurrect the righteous and unrighteous at the end of the age ... unto an eternal state of reward or punishment. There are also those who believe in a "soul" which can be separate from the body, who believe that God will save everyone. My point? Universalism and soul sleep are two separate issues. You mix them, all the time, moving from one to another without warning. One does not support the other. Now, if we get back to the issue of "soul sleep" alone ... why is it so important? It is an intermediate state between here and there. If your universalism isn't the issue (and it really can't be since the two are not logically or doctrinally co-dependent) then what IS the issue? Try to answer without universalism. Let's pretend I'm a universalist who still believes in a composite nature of man, body and soul. And don't tell me there aren't any ... I know one personally. Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Susan, I would challenge you to read a book or two in the New Testament, say John, or Romans, and then after reading it, if you can still say it might be fiction, I would be surprised, and would like to know." Arnold, She could just as well come back and challenge you to read other parts of the bible. How do you accept your loving God plaguing people and destroying new borns as in Exodus, and other violent acts attributed to God in the bible, as "facts"? Personally I may never accept them. But I don't let that overwhelm me from appreciating the things I do accept in the bible. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"What gain would Satan have in deceiving people into believing that the soul can be separate from the body ... when either way, ressurrection seems to be the Biblical focus of the end?" ~ Just as in the OT, one lamb was the truth and one was Azazael the Goat. The same as why Satan would want people believing in vain philosophies of men. Of course, the immortal soul doctrine is just one piece of puzzle in how Satan goes about deceiving the whole world. "The difference seems trivial." ~ It seems trivial to those who are deceived. "And as one who studies the Bible, I don't see the "gravity" that you see." ~ Many followers of false christianity study the Bible. "The "true" church versus the "false" Christians, is a hard angle for you to argue from, as a non-believer." ~ I already explained myself on that matter. It is quite simple to understand. "For, if I take your view seriously, ALL the Biblical doctrines become suspect. If no one can claim exclusive truth, then no one can say whether a man even has a soul ... much less what the nature of the soul is. Remember how absolutely you believe that truth is truly relative ... that "your truth" can never be "my truth", etc ... etc ...?" ~ Absolutey, I remember. I have already told you and many others, I have been truly called, but have not lived up to the call. One can't just say, "Save me, Jesus!" A preacher can't say, "Come and be saved." God has to call, and He is not trying to save the entire world now. He is only calling a select few at this time. "From your perspective, what does authority have to do with it?" ~ The authority comes from those who are truly called by the Holy Spirit of God and understand the truth, and don't rely on believing in the philosophies and doctrines of pagan men, like the overwhelming majority of the false christian church. "Even Arnold feels, (in spite of his enthusiasm on this point) that there are Christians who disagree with him, who are going to be saved nonetheless." ~ Well, I can't speak for Arnold, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Bible teaches that vast overwhelming majority of ALL MANKIND will eventually be saved, including the many who are followers of false Christianity today. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Mandamus Junior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 13 |
quote: It really seems quite simple. If resurrection and eternal life are the end result, then it doesn't matter if the soul sleeps or exists in some conscious, disembodied state during the interim. If all that faces us is oblivion, why argue about it? It seems our time and energies could be directed in so many more productive directions. Mandamus |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Maybe that is what Satan wants people to think... "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Care to try and give a reason why? If not, then what we have here is a naked article of faith, on your part. What I mean by "naked" is: unlike most faith claims of the Bible, it has no obvious "reasons" supporting or surrounding it. If what jbouder says is true, about the final destination, then why would Satan gain so much by propagating this "heretical" notion of a disembodied soul? And in answering this, try not to just restate your view that Satan wants to mislead people on this issue (a reiteration of the faith claim itself). Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Respond to my direct reply to you first... part of the answer you seek here can be found there. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
JCP, There's nothing there in way of reason, other than "The deceived will not see the gravity" ... and "it's just part of Satan's deception". I did go back, you did not answer my question there. That's why I didn't repy directly to those statements. Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Any answer I give you, you would not understand, so why even bother? You shouldn't. Obviously, you were not elected. In the OT, 2 lambs were led for sacrifice, both unblemished to the eye, unless the Spirit of God was upon a person, one was sacrificed - a prelude of Christ to come, and one was driven to the desert; Azazael, the Goat. This is a very important and completely misunderstood passage by the false christian church, along with Ezekial's vision of the Vally of the Bones.... The entire immortal soul philosphy is pagan, and a falsity of the devil. The immortal soul doctrine has many tangents, all which lead to a false christianity. It is quite logical to those called, and it is right there in the Bible... If the Bible teaches that Satan deceives the entire world and that there is a false christian church, in which Christ says that in vain do they worship me believing in doctrines and commandments of men, and that the true Christian church is called the "little flock," then quite obviously, the majority of christians are worshipping in Satan's, who appears as minister of righteousness, church. But like I said, don't bother with it, no matter what I, or any truly called person would say to you, would not make a difference - you have to be CALLED. And like I said, that doesn't mean a preacher saying, "Come accept Jesus, brother." That is not being called. The Bible clearly teaches that practically all of mankind will be saved, and that only the few incorrigible wicked will be lost forever, not to suffer forever, but to be put to, as Paul called it, the second death. You may as well just put me down and call me a loon. It doesn't matter to me. EDIT: I'd be in good company, indeed! "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Mandamus Junior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 13 |
quote: LOL. Not the first, nor (I suspect) will it be the last time I've been likened to Satan. I'm more inclined to think, however, that the Great Deceiver would get more pleasure out of our getting embroiled in a time consuming and purely theoretical debates. After all, imagine all the good we could do in this world without being distracted by trivial pursuits like discovering whether souls are immortal, the number of angels that would fit on the head of a needle, or whether God could create a rock He could not lift. What, really, is more important? Winning an argument about abstraction, or picking someone up when they've been knocked down in the real world? Loving your neighbor, if I recall, IS one of Jesus' more weighty commandments. You seem to know quite a few verses of the Bible ... more than I do, for sure. So where does Jesus rank refuting the immortality of the soul? Mandamus |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"LOL. Not the first, nor (I suspect) will it be the last time I've been likened to Satan." ~ Your "LOL" was all for naught, for I never likened you personally to Satan. You must of misread what I stated. "I'm more inclined to think, however, that the Great Deceiver would get more pleasure out of our getting embroiled in a time consuming and purely theoretical debates." ~ And there is the problem, when a carnal mind is inclined to think, it is not thinking with the power of the Holy Spirit, and therefore cannot comprehend these matters. "After all, imagine all the good we could do in this world without being distracted by trivial pursuits like discovering whether souls are immortal," ~ They call that in critical thought, the slippery slope, and I am not sliding down that chute. "the number of angels that would fit on the head of a needle, or whether God could create a rock He could not lift." ~ If you choose not to read the entire debate on this subject matter, or without an objective mind care to understand the entire reasoning behind why an immortal soul doctrine is of the devil, then you will come to the conclusion that you just came to, by comparing it to angels and rocks. "What, really, is more important? Winning an argument about abstraction, or picking someone up when they've been knocked down in the real world? Loving your neighbor, if I recall, IS one of Jesus' more weighty commandments. You seem to know quite a few verses of the Bible ... more than I do, for sure. So where does Jesus rank refuting the immortality of the soul?" ~ I spoke too soon about the slippery slope, because here it is again. Are you saying that just loving your neighbor gets you a ticket for immortality in heaven? If so, Stephanos will most certainly correct you on how good deeds mean nothing without Jesus. ~ You seem not to be open-minded on this subject matter. Good luck to you. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You're not a loon, Mike. You've just been deceived by Satan. You've been fooled into thinking you were called when clearly you have not been, tricked into thinking you arrived so you might never realize, for you, the journey never started. The false victory you claim, unlike any true triumph, is reflected in neither word nor deed. You can't possibly see it, won't ever admit it, because your eyes are blinded by the lies you call truth, but Satan's sword has drawn your blood, and the name of the blade is Hubris. WAIT A MINUTE! I don't really believe any of that crap, of course. If I did, I certainly wouldn't offer it as support for an argument. Like any other Call to Authority fallacy, what Satan "wants" or "does" is completely irrelevant. "Satan wants you to believe that" is neither an argument for nor against Truth. It's just an assumption, and an unsupportable one at that. I have to admit, though, that stuff sure is fun to write. Easy, too. A lot easier, perhaps, than silly things like logic and evidence. Getting personal, questioning the motives of other posters, telling others what they can and cannot see, attacking the person instead of the post, those are NOT the reason this forum exists. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Ron, I understand your point, completely. However, there are a few areas I would like to address... Firstly, I am just answering the questions asked, honestly. I could not be honest and lie or be honest and state what I state. You tell me what is the best way to go? Secondly, and most importantly, although it may seem that I am telling Stephanos, Jim, and others that they cannot see or understand the truth, the huge, and I mean huge difference between what Stephanons and Jim believe in, although they may not be honest to admit, is that at least from what I believe, they will be saved... they and the vast majority of mankind, which would most likely include practically everone on this site... now if that is a bad thing or something that this forum is NOT about, then I don't get it. You ask for evidence, Ron... but once again, people's minds are already made up, so no matter what evidence is offered, it wouldn't make one bit of difference. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
JCP, “You ask for evidence, Ron... but once again, people's minds are already made up, so no matter what evidence is offered, it wouldn't make one bit of difference.” If you don’t offer any evidence how are you expecting to convince people? Saying it wouldn’t make a bit of difference doesn’t make any sense – given sufficient and irrefutable evidence a difference is almost inevitable. “Firstly, I am just answering the questions asked, honestly.” Great, here are some questions I’m honestly interested in finding the answers to: 1 Does God exist and if so how do you know? 2 Does Satan exist and if so how do you know? 3 Does the soul exist and if so how do you know? 4 Does heaven exist and if so how do you know? 5 Does hell exist and if so how do you know? 6 Is the bible the word of god if so how do you know? [This message has been edited by Grinch (01-29-2006 02:00 PM).] |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"If you don’t offer any evidence how are you expecting to convince people? Saying it wouldn’t make a bit of difference doesn’t make any sense – given sufficient and irrefutable evidence a difference is almost inevitable." ~ I already offered evidence in the past. I am just weary of providing it again. Besides that, it is a fact that most people will not change their minds on religious views, especially when the person who is providing the evidence is an "enemy" to the person receving it. Biases and subject thought happen to rule within the human mind. "Great, here are some questions I’m honestly interested in finding the answers to: 1 Does God exist and if so how do you know? 2 Does Satan exist and if so how do you know? 3 Does the soul exist and if so how do you know? 4 Does heaven exist and if so how do you know? 5 Does hell exist and if so how do you know? 6 Is the bible the word of god if so how do you know?" ~ These are questions for a different thread and are not on topic with the subject matter. The basis of this thread is presuming that there is a Christian God and that the Bible is the Word of God. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
JCP, “~ These are questions for a different thread and are not on topic with the subject matter.” If the subject matter is the soul, god etc. how can the questions not be relevant? “The basis of this thread is presuming that there is a Christian God and that the Bible is the Word of God.” Well there’s your problem! You can’t supply unequivocal evidence that’s built solely on two presumptions; all you end up with is another presumption. You can ask opinions, request educated guesses and assumptions based on a presumption, and to be honest that seems to be pretty much what you’ve got, but they’re all fairly useless until you prove your original presumptions correct. Lets presume for instance that nursery rhymes are actually true, let’s also presume that the bovine population of the USA have serious intentions to enter the space race. Given those two presumptions is it true that a cow could reach sufficient velocity while jumping to leave the earth’s atmosphere, orbit the moon and then touchdown safely back on earth. On the basis of the evidence in the nursery rhyme I’d have to say no, the cow could perform the task up to the point of actually jumping the moon but there’s no clear evidence in the text to suggest that a successful re-entry and landing is feasible. However some sources would interpret a ‘jump’ to consist of an initial leap and a subsequent landing as a single action, in which case it may be possible. See what I mean. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I suspect Euclid would strongly disagree with you, Grinch. I honestly doubt there is anything that doesn't start with and firmly rest upon a foundation of assumption. Logic has little to do with "proving" the truth of our axioms, but rather with exploring the internal consistency of those assumptions. You can argue all day long that trisecting an angle with naught but straightedge and compass is possible, but your arguments are unlikely to find willing ears if you adamantly refuse to start with the same assumptions as everyone else. The goal of critical thinking has never been to eliminate assumptions, but rather to first agree on them and then explore where that road goes. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Ron, Assumptions are indeed necessary but evidence to prove the validity of an assumption can’t be another assumption alone – at some point fact must validate fiction, even if the evidence is proof of usefulness, otherwise all you end up with is at best an unverifiable theory and at worst a series of useless assumptions. "... a hypothesis is a statement whose truth is temporarily assumed, whose meaning is beyond all doubt." Albert Einstein The key word is temporarily; this infers that at some point the assumption or hypothesis will be tested and either accepted or rejected based on verifiable evidence (fact). (Euclid’s fifth postulate is beyond me – I’m still trying to fathom the Birthday Paradox) |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"Well there’s your problem!" ~ It's not my problem at all. Like I said, the questions you ask are for another thread and subject matter. We are discussing the question or validity, if you will, of whether the Bible teaches that man possesses an immortal soul or not. ~ In critical thinking, keeping issues separate, as in this case, is a must. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Great, here are some questions I’m honestly interested in finding the answers to: 1 Does God exist and if so how do you know? 2 Does Satan exist and if so how do you know? 3 Does the soul exist and if so how do you know? 4 Does heaven exist and if so how do you know? 5 Does hell exist and if so how do you know? 6 Is the bible the word of god if so how do you know?" Yes, the same way we may know anything exists: evidence. |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Stephan, I'm sorry if it sounded like you and others are 'thoughtless.' Wrong way to say it. Of course, with any Biblical doctrine or teaching, to arrive at one's opinion of the truth, requires a measuring and interpreting using the complete context of Scripture. Another point. I do not believe the 'soul sleeps.' There again, this shows how you read my inputs and concluded, wrongly, I believe in 'soul sleeping.' No where is that term used. Man is said to 'be asleep' when dead, not his soul. In John 11:11-14 Jesus, speaking of Lazarus who had died, 'Lazarus is sleeping". And there are other passages. Yes, Paul couldn't say whether he 'was in the body, or out of the body,'for only God knows. And he says in 2 Cor.12:1, "I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord." NIV. I interpret his being 'caught away to the third heaven' as being in a vision or dream. My statement about St.Augustine accepting the Platonic philosophy 'wholeheartedly' was wrong. Since rereading "The City of God", I must correct myself. My copy is by Image Book, translated by Walsh, Zema, Monahan and Honan. In Book VIII, Chapter 7, page 155, Augustine says, "Certainly, the Platonists, whom we rightly prefer to all others..." But, I didn't read anywhere that the belief in an immortal soul came from Plato. Seemingly, Augustine was familiar with all the philosophies of his time. Actually, his argument is that an immortal soul, and a body that will never die, is based upon a number of verses such as Matt.25:46, "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." And others speaking of "everlasting torment". IMO, Augustine's views were based on the Latin Vulgate, not on the Greek Scriptures, where "aionios" is interpreted as "eternal" instead of "age-abiding". All for now. Arnold |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: I think what Mike was getting at, is that this thread is not meant as another thread to debate theism. That would be reinventing the wheel, for the purposes of this thread. Arnold, like myself, is a Christian. And there are questions / debates within the context of Biblical Theism. This is one of those. Mike's "problem" is not that he presumes the Bible to be the word of God. The problem is that he is debating vehemently as if he did. One thread, he is an atheist, post-modern thinker, for whom truth is relative for everyone, insisting that no one should have the audacity to claim to know anything for sure, and impose it on others. The next thread, he is "truly called", a remnant believer, and one of the "elect" who knows divinely revealed truth more than others who are blinded and deceived. He seems to suggest that he believes some kind of definite truth about the nature of the soul ... but it doesn't fit his relativistic thinking, as expressed elsewhere. I would love to discuss with you, why I consider atheism to be just as problematic and even as fanciful as a fairy tale, when it comes to basic beliefs ... but that's for another thread. Arnold: quote: To me "sleep" is an awkward metaphor to apply to non-existence, or non-life. At least, with a soul, there is something there which may "sleep". Stephen. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Arnold: Check Plato's "Phaedo" for a discussion on the immortality of man's soul. Jim |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
We're all going to find out eventually; that's certain. |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Replies: Essorant, at this time I do accept all the accounts of the flood, the plagues, the deaths of whole cities, etc, as being true. And God would not be the loving God I believe He is, if all the humans destroyed, were than judged and sent to a place of conscious eternal torment. BUT, from my studies of more accurate, literal translations, I believe that the "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" will be judged at the Great White Throne, where God's vengeance, through Christ the judge, will be repaid. And at the end of the age-times, all will be made alive and be apart of the universal acclaim that Christ Jesus is Lord. And the kingdom of God the Father will have no end. I know, I'm back to UR, for I don't know how else to answer your question. All for now. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"Check Plato's "Phaedo" for a discussion on the immortality of man's soul." ~ Was Plato a Christian - speaking with wisdom derived from the Holy Spirit of God, or was he a pagan of carnal mind? "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Stephen, It is true that Christians from every denomination or interpretation of the Scriptures, should all fellowship together in our common salvation through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. One of my purposes is to show from the scriptures, that in death, man is non-existent until resurrection; and therefore, since 'the wages of sin is death, man after death will not suffer in hell eternally. And another purpose is to encourage all to search the scriptures concerning this subject, to then form an opinion. I realize my view is quite small compared to all Christendom. Maybe you would be willing to show from the scriptures, how this belief in an immortal soul was developed. Or, if you are willing, what are the many scriptures that uphold that position? I wish to know the truth. Arnold |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Hey Arnold (no pun intended), I have to admit as some others have... what purpose does your belief in this matter serve if you believe that it doesn't make a difference with regards to salvation during our lifetime? I don't get it. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Opeth: If you want to know what Plato taught regarding the immortality of the soul, you shouldn't "ask" Augustine. You should "ask" Plato. I cannot know whether Plato's wisdom was moved by some Divine hand anymore than you can. But given God's propensity for using pagans to advance His plan, it certainly isn't outside the realm of possibility that God used Greek advances in rhetoric and philosophy to further His plan (e.g., Pharoah, Balaam and Balaak, Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Xerxes, Caesar Augustus, Pontius Pilate -- and nations in general - the Phillistines ~read 1 Samuel, 1 Kings, et al.~, the Assyrians and Babylonians ~read Habbakkuk~ and the Medo-Persians ~read Nehemiah and Ezra(?)~). Surely, if you know anything about Paul of Tarsus, you'd realize that he was both a first-rate philosopher and letter writer familiar with the rhetorical tools made available to Roman citizens in the academies. Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and his other letters have training in classical rhetoric "written all over them." Paul even makes use of direct quotes from Epiminides and other Greek poets in the divinely inspired Scripture you seem to idolize but refuse to interpret it beyond treating it as a magnetic poetry kit of non-contextual verses and phrases to arrange and rearrange at your "Holy Spirit" inspired whim. Further, Your mystification (Bushism: mistake-ification) of the Holy Spirit's activity demonstrates your poor facility with the notion of Divine Providence - especially the notion of concurrent providence. I like Ron's illustration. Your retreat to "Holy Spirit" guidance isn't a demonstration of piety. It is an escape from reason. And the ability to reason is certainly an attribute of the image in which God created us. As long as you fail to recognize this, I don't believe you'll ever get past the line of scrimmage. Jim |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
With all due respect Jim, The Bible states on numerous occasions that a carnal mind cannot know God, but only a mind of a person elected by God and filled with His Holy Spirit. Plato was a pagan and not full of the Spirit of God. Any belief he has and any beliefs of his believed by others is therefore of carnal mind. If you think that keeps me at the starting line or whatever it was you said, that is your opinion, but not factual. And, if you are not one elected during this lifetime, it doesn't surprise me why you would think so. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
But JCP, your election is just "your" truth right? ... not Jims. How is your concept of election, compatible with your relativism? Or you are just arguing as if you believed election were anything real? Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"But JCP, your election is just "your" truth right? ... not Jims." ~ Who is to say? "How is your concept of election, compatible with your relativism? Or you are just arguing as if you believed election were anything real?" ~ Pharisees of Christ's day used language liek that. Keep it simple, as Christ did. The Bible that you believe in states that a person has to be elected, not me. One can't elect themselves, as the so called christian leaders portend. Only God can do that, and who are you to say that God hasn't called me to preach His truth to you, as well as others, on this message board? You, Stephanos, actually put me in pretty good company with regards to that specific matter. PS ~ Many are called, but few are chosen... maybe I am not to be chosen, but I certainly was called. And God isn't calling everyone at this time, and most certainly not all called will be "elected." But, that is up to God to decide, not you or Jim or any other person. "If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: That's my point. According to your usual stance, who is to say? But according to your present stance, YOU are definitely the one to say. In fact you have been saying that Jim isn't elected, therefore it doesn't surprise you that he doesn't agree with you. Leave the concept of election for just a moment ... can you see how inconsistent you're being in your arguments? quote: Right. I don't claim relativism either. But I also at least try to "give reason" rather than just tell others that they can't understand because they aren't elected. I believe in the doctrine of "election" by the way, I just don't use it as an argument for truth. If only God knows someone's "election", why did you seem to indicate that Jim isn't one of the elect, in order to bolster your views? Going back to the "pagan" argument you were making ... If all pagans were of "carnal mind", does that mean that they knew nothing true? Why do you think Paul quoted several pagan poet / philosophers in the New Testament? I can quote and cite them if you wish. Funny that Paul would quote such carnal minds, if everything they said was wrong. Maybe it's not so cut and dry as you make it out to be. I'm not saying that they were saints. But I am saying that God has been liberal with his truths, enough that the apostle Paul would recognize common wisdom when he read it, regardless of the source. at least be as charitable as Paul (who was definitely one of the elect), when it comes to Pagan thinkers. Stephen. |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Stephen: I agree with you that truths, noble ideas, etc, regardless of where they originated, are to be meditated on, as Paul writes in Phil.4:8, RSV, "Finally brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." Arnold |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Stephen, anybody: Here are some verses that I have trouble understanding, if man has an immortal soul: John 3:36, "He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." Q. If believers have everlasting life, and they die; does this mean Jesus is speaking of their immortal soul? But, if the soul is always alive, why does it need everlasting life? And, if unbelievers shall not see life, does this mean literal death, just of their body, for their soul is immortal? John 5:28,29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Q. Jesus indicates people are in the graves to be resurrected. Why wouldn't he call down the believers in heaven (i.e. their souls)? And, if believer's have a soul which has all it's senses, and therefore, some kind of a body, that can be in the presence of God, enjoying all the delights of heaven, why then would they need another body? John 6:39,40, "...all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." "...every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." Q. If Jesus is speaking of those given him by the Father, and that even though they die, he will raise them up at the last day, why does he think he could lose them, if they are alive because their souls are immortal? Q. Again, since these believers have died, does 'everlasting life' not mean their souls? But, if immortal, why do they need everlasting life? And why do they need raised up? All for now, Arnold |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
~ You had no takers for your last line of questions, Arnold. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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