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Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

0 posted 2006-02-16 04:50 PM

Some one I was talking to today expressed a strict opinion that pride in such things as race, gender, sexuality, religion, culture, etc is always by its nature elitist and implies a belief or treatment of something as "better" or "superior".

Just wondering what your thoughts are about this.

Is it right to have pride in these things, or does pride only make us more given to prejudices and discrimination?

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-16-2006 09:47 PM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

1 posted 2006-02-16 07:35 PM

What does pride mean here?

I wonder if the difference isn't between the descriptive and the prescriptive.

A change in tone if you will.

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

2 posted 2006-02-16 08:15 PM

Supposedly pride is the love of one's own excellence. And having pride in something or someone is derived from association with the self, and the inflation of sense of selfworth. If we have pride in something as a community, culture, religion, etc, or factors of birth such as race, skin colour, gender, sexuality, supposedly this is all from association with self and an inflated sense of selfworth.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-16-2006 09:43 PM).]

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

3 posted 2006-02-16 09:19 PM

Are people really "better" or "worse", more "good" or more "evil" than each other?

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

4 posted 2006-02-16 10:15 PM

Ask Hitler

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

5 posted 2006-02-16 10:35 PM

Was Hitler "better" or "worse", more "good" or more "evil" than any other human?

Ron

Administrator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-05-19

Posts 8669
Michigan, US

6 posted 2006-02-17 06:28 AM

Godwin's Law

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

7 posted 2006-02-17 10:08 AM

From Godwin's law:

"There is a tradition of protocol in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread in which the comment was posted is over and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress."

Now I can't say for sure that this is record time for this particular forum, but it was pretty fast!

Thanks Ron, for the interesting link.

I have protocal problems.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

8 posted 2006-02-17 03:07 PM

Hitler is like a corpse
thrown on the floor of a reading room
where armchair sages are discussing the nature of death.
And that in an environment where such realities are
inconvenient to debate is always unattractive.
Please guess what my parents would think of:

“Are people really "better" or "worse", more "good" or more "evil" than each other?”

being seriously asked?
It’s almost as obscene as Holocaust denial.

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

9 posted 2006-02-17 04:34 PM

I don't believe people are better or worse, more good or more evil than each other. Am I wrong for believing that?

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant

since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

10 posted 2006-02-17 08:27 PM

Invoking Hitler AS Hitler isn't the same thing as making a bad analogy. I don't find Godwin's Law to be in effect. He's only used as a comparison to himself.

quote:

Godwin's standard answer to this objection is to note that Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a reference or comparison may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued, that hyperbolic overuse of the Hitler/Nazi comparison should be avoided. Avoiding such hyperbole, he argues, is a way of ensuring that when valid comparisons to Hitler or Nazis are made, such comparisons have the appropriate impact.

No foul this time.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant

since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

11 posted 2006-02-17 08:29 PM

quote:

I don't believe people are better or worse, more good or more evil than each other. Am I wrong for believing that?

It's your choice to believe as you believe. But, by your own chosen beliefs if someone believes that some people are better or worse than others... they are.

jarrett
Member

since 2006-05-10

Posts 72
Ut, USA

12 posted 2006-05-11 11:16 PM

I know that many people quote from the bible, and if i'm wrong let me know if I shouldn't quote from other scriptures. But in D&C 122 verse 8 It quotes
"The son of man hath descended below them all. Art though greater than he?" We all chose to come down on earth to learn and grow. We all make mistakes therefore no one is better then any... that is my belief.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

13 posted 2006-05-11 11:33 PM

quote:
I don't believe people are better or worse, more good or more evil than each other. Am I wrong for believing that?

But you think it's better to believe that than something else. Otherwise, you wouldn't believe your own belief.

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

14 posted 2006-05-12 01:05 PM

Brad

That's like saying I can't use my own feet without thinking they are better than other peoples feet!

I think I can!

Stephanos

Member Elite

since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

15 posted 2006-05-12 03:13 PM

Essorant,

Still, in a river, cement shoes will never work as well as scuba-fins

Stephen.

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

16 posted 2006-05-14 04:36 PM

What about a bridge? It may wear cement shoes to help it stand stronger in place at a river. If it wore scuba fins it would slip out of place.

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

17 posted 2006-05-15 09:18 PM

Did you know your website is not working?

Stephanos

Member Elite

since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

18 posted 2006-05-16 12:31 PM

Thanks Essorant,

I'm actually working on a new website.
that was only a prototype.

Stephen.

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