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Judgment Day
| Philosophy 101 |
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Judgment Day |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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Is there any situation that you can see where you would tell a perfectly healthy man to go kill himself? John |
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| © Copyright 2004 John Pawlik - All Rights Reserved | |||
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
During the Columbine slaughter, I did find myself actually praying that the perpetrators would commit suicide before any more murders were committed. I have struggled with that one ever since, so I'll be watching this thread with interest. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
No. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Poet deVine, Not even Hitler? John |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
are you suggesting Hitler was healthy? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Kacy, Physically yes; probably could run a marathon and never break a sweat. You knew what I meant. Answer. John |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I think it's a really lame question, John. Though I do recall telling a neighborhood bully 'go off yourself' and he understood exactly what I meant. It's still a lame question, dude. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Not even Hitler. If I did that, I would be acting just like he did. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
This is the same mistake as the Aztec question and the time travel one. 1. Is it moral to ask someone to kill themselves. No. 2. Can I commit an immoral act? Yes. Doesn't make me happy, but I've done it before. 3. Can I think of a situation where I would commit that specific immoral act? Sure, I can think of a few. It's an easy one to answer once you get out of the false dichotomy that the solution to a dilemma must always be moral. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Does anyone remember Richard Speck, one night broke into a dorm and slashed seven or eight nurse trainees to death? Would you tell him to have a nice day? Poet deVine, “Not even Hitler. If I did that, I would be acting just like he did.” That deserves expansion on the equivalence. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Never; no man's life should be made out as the evil that deserves to be stopped. EVIL IS EVIL--the thinking and the doing. Not a man, not his life. The thinking--moving yourself, or moving another--the questioning, making something that you know is evil out as a question; splitting your mind about something that needs onemindedness; and the doing, the foul doing as a deed over someone or something. Only when you stop thinking, questioning, doing what is evil, by thinking, knowing, doing, good do you vanquish the evil. There is no being that is evil itself; but evil is what we are doing. The only way we may stop the evil, is stop what we are doing evil. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Why not? After I locked him away, so he couldn't ever hurt anyone again, I would hope Speck would have a long life full of very nice days. You would prefer vengeance, perhaps? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Yeah. I edited. I tried.  I really tried. I'll not be doing that again. [This message has been edited by serenity blaze (11-07-2004 07:35 AM).] |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron “Why not? After I locked him away, so he couldn't ever hurt anyone again, I would hope Speck would have a long life full of very nice days. You would prefer vengeance, perhaps?” What would you tell the parents, and others who loved them? John |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
John, I do remember Richard Speck...I was a single girl living in a dorm-like home with other single girls. Murder is a crime and should be treated as such in a court of law. If we went around killing people who WE thought deserved to die, what kind of life would that be? What if someone thought YOU had killed their daughter and without benefit of a court of law and evidence and the presumption of innocence, they took matters into their own hands? There are many instances of men released after years in prison because new DNA evidence has proven them innocent. What if the 'shoot first' theory of yours was the norm? These innocent men would be dead. As for Hitler? He caused millions of people (men, women and children) to be murdered. He was basically a coward who couldn't face up to what he'd done, whether it was a sense of guilt or not, and committed suicide. If I told him to do it, then I would feel guilty the rest of my life. I am not here to judge anyone. Therefore, the judgement that someone must die is not mine to make. I don't care how many serial killers you reference. I wouldn't do it. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
serenity blaze, Toward the end of the war my father was being transported from the camp where he had been and away from the approaching allies. He figured the guards were taking him and the others where they could be disposed of, so as to leave no witnesses of what had occurred before. Their convoy came under an artillery barrage, and seeing his chance he leaped for his life out the back of the truck past the German guards, (who were just as terrified), running into the forest. He stayed there for two weeks while battles raged around him surviving on whatever nuts and berries he could find. Then starving, he decided to go out and surrender to his fate. He heard a clanking on the road which he knew could only be tanks, yet, still resolved, he came out of the woods. Indeed there were on the road tanks, but to his surprise they had a star on their sides instead of the familiar German cross. He ran across the field waving his arms and shouting that he was Polish. He was very lucky, not only because of his striped camp uniform and emaciated appearance, but because on the tank he was approaching there were two ethic Poles from Milwaukee who understood what he was saying. Encountering my manner, (to some degree deliberate), is like that of meeting a soldier; you have to be attentive to what colors he wears before you decide how to respond. I sincerely hope my way of approaching my subject is the worst adversity you ever experience. Since I am reminded, I will also relate: that having survivors for parents may have made my upbringing different. For example, they never hid death from me; my first funeral was when I was perhaps three, which I remember because they had the corpse laid out on a low bench, (which was the custom), and I, at my height, looked directly at his face from the side not two feet away. There are other stories but we’ll leave them. My parents did not believe in shielding me from the harsher realities. That was not uncommon in our neighborhood which was composed almost entirely of emigrants who had survived. Still as I said, it may have been different. I’m really not that bad. John |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Poet deVine, Fair enough. Now we know. There's no best answer, only different ones. But let’s have some more fun. Say you or someone you loved were being attacked by an assailant with an axe, and you saw another man, (me perhaps (-  , aiming a shotgun at theassailant and knew with absolute certainty that if he fired the assailant would be killed. Would you shout to the man not to shoot? Oh look, a smiley face! See, serenity blaze, God says I'm ok! John |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Not knowing you I would shout for you not to shoot....you could miss the assailant and hit my loved one! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Poet deVine, I was very clear: “knew with absolute certainty that if he fired the assailant would be killed. Would you shout to the man not to shoot?” The only physical danger to you or your loved one is from the axe swinging assailant who is intent on murder. (Besides you’re saying rather than risk the possibility of the gun you accept then the certainty of the axe) Now again: “Would you shout to the man not to shoot?” John |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Why must it be a shot to kill? Wouldn't it just be as effective to shoot the axe from his hand? Perhaps I'd shout "don't kill him!" and hope that your aim would then only wound him. You cannot make me say I'd want someone dead. (Since we cannot reference family or loved ones as per your original question, I think you weren't playing fair here!) |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I would tell them I was sorry for their horrible loss, John. If pressed, I would tell them taking a life doesn't restore one already lost, and any satisfaction they might gain through vengeance would be hollow and last but a moment. I would tell them their lives would be richer for remembering their love and forgetting their hate. I notice you didn't answer the question, John. quote: That is a very different question from your first, John. "Should you wish someone dead simply because you can?" isn't nearly the same things as "Are you willing to kill someone if that is the most viable way of stopping them from hurting others?" The title of this thread was an interesting choice, John. Do you perceive yourself as a judge of others? quote: The colors he wears, John, are of less import than his actions. Friend or foe won't ultimately be determined by a uniform, but rather by the respect for others he is willing to demonstrate. Caustic soldiers, who seeming go out of their way to irritate or provoke those around them, soon find themselves standing on the side of the road, very much alone as those around them continue trudging forward. Sadly, being left behind is rarely the worst adversity they experience. It's just the most common. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Here, John. Have another. And I kinda figured that life had given you quite a ride. Whenever I see a person blatantly angry, I think: "Now there's a person who's in a lot of pain." Here, have a hug too.  I hope you didn't find that too annoying.  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: I see your point Brad, there's always more to consider than just "morality". And yet, the kinds of decisions that John is referring to cannot be totally divorced from the moral dimension. When it comes to killing someone (or not) there's probably no consideration higher than the moral question. Don't you think so? I know that Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who made an unsuccessful attempt at assassinating Hitler, and ended up dying at the hands of the Nazis), did what he did out of a moral conviction. Whether what he did was right or wrong (morally) is no easy question to answer, but the question was doubtless foremost at the time. Stephen. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron, My answer to my own question is colored by the experience of my parents and their friends. I would have no problem killing Hitler. John |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Everyone's answer is colored by the past, John. That's not the same thing, though, as an answer determined by the past. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron, If my experience with the Holocaust was merely the “World At War” series instead of first hand accounts as well, I still would have no problem killing Hitler. Hitler scorned the peaceful. His hatred, his willingness to exterminate millions of innocent men women and children who had done no harm to him or Germans was conscious and deliberate. He was without remorse. And I would kill him. John |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Would you kill him without remorse? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Poet deVine, “The man who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself" Friedrich Nietzsche The remorse would be for myself not him. Even if you avoid "too long", yet you are changed. He had millions like you killed all over Europe. They did not stop him; he felt no need to. John P.S. Read the poem: “After Experience Taught Me...” by W. D. Snodgrass http://alienoreo.homestead.com/experience.html [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-08-2004 01:54 AM).] |
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Cloud 9 Senior Member
since 2004-11-05
Posts 980Ca |
I could think of a few people!! (ex-husband) LOL Just kidding. Have a great day everyone. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
It seems to me there are multiple issues, based not on the question "Would you kill Hitler?" but on the question "Why would you kill Hitler?" To stop him from hurting others? Or to pay him back for hurting others? The first answer leads to issues of qualifications and rights. Does any one person have the right to unilaterally make those kinds of decisions? If so, who is qualified? Lee Harvey Oswald may well have been operating under the same premise. Why should we accept your judgment as superior to his? The second answer, I think, leads to much simpler issues. Vengeance is no less self-serving than world domination. Killing someone because it makes you feel better is the same as killing someone to feel good. Both are sociopathic. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Perhaps you're right there Ron, But killing someone to stop them from killing others, out of a moral conviction, is morally superior than doing it just to save your own skin when / if it happens to you. You have a sturdy case against moral vengeance, but not one iota against moral action. Stephen. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
You have to be one million percent sure that 'someone' is going to commit that murder before you can kill him first. How can you ever be sure that at the last moment he decides NOT to commit the crime? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I think a serial killer in the middle of a rampage would be one example. John's example of Hitler, after the concentration camps were in swing, is another. There is such a thing as catching a fish midstream. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Poet deVine “You have to be one million percent sure that 'someone' is going to commit that murder before you can kill him first. How can you ever be sure that at the last moment he decides NOT to commit the crime?” This raises another question: what kind and how valuable is a love to a loved one that would allow the overwhelming likelihood, (but not absolute certainty), of his or her murder rather than risk the killing of an overwhelmingly likely, but not absolutely certain, assailant intent on that murder? John |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Killing to try and stop killing, is killing. It doesn't stop the next man; it doesn't stop him from most likely having a gun. The same situation shall happen over and over again. Until someone has a better mind; or is simply not able to get a gun ever, and instead finds help and ability to grow healthy again. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with that, Stephen. Not as long as there are people flying airplanes into crowded buildings because of their moral convictions. Or does the superiority only arise when they're your convictions? quote: I'll tell you want, John. I'll answer that question as long as you agree to abide by my determination. Might be someone has to fire the first round before I'll call them a legitimate threat. Or, alternatively, I might decide you are already enough of a threat to warrant action. You won't really know, though, until I answer. You game? Thought so. Does it surprise you terribly that I'm not willing to leave the determination up to you, either? Each of us, I think, has to be prepared to make that call for ourselves. Often within the time between two heartbeats. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron, "I'll tell you want, John. I'll answer that question as long as you agree to abide by my determination. Might be someone has to fire the first round before I'll call them a legitimate threat. Or, alternatively, I might decide you are already enough of a threat to warrant action. You won't really know, though, until I answer. You game?" Yes. John |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Why ask a question only to question the answer? You asked, I answered. Explaining and expounding won't change the answer. Give it up John!!  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Stephen: quote: Ron: quote: But since when was flying an airplane into a crowded building an example of stopping someone from killing others?! You always throw up an extreme particular bad example, to deny the general point that there is at least the possibility of good, or at least better examples. It's a classic false analogy. Why not stick to John's own example of using arms to stop Hitler? Probably because the reality of it doesn't easily lend support to your philosophical point? I think you either need to go ahead and say it was wrong to use arms against Nazi Germany, period, or quit throwing up Terrorist acts as straw men to make your argument. Stephen. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Why, I thought that's what philosophy was all about. Stephen. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Actually Stephen, perhaps you didn't understand Ron's comment about the planes? The fanatical fundamental Muslim terrorists that hit the towers did believe, heart and soul, that killing Americans would eventually stop Americans from killing Muslims. That doesn't mean they were right, any more than it means we are right about our expectations, or that either side is more justified. I find it ridiculous that everyone seems to believe God is on their side. I've never met anyone yet who had a more direct line to God than myself. And I'm not really a firm believer in the entity you call God. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: They certainly thought it was, Stephen. In their minds, there was a direct correlation between what Israel does and the United States. The terrorists thought they could make a difference and felt morally obligated to do what ever it took to stop the deaths of Muslims. Or did you think they all just woke up one morning and decided to do something evil? If you prefer to restrict morality to just assassinations, that's fine, too. Why did Booth kill Lincoln, Oswald kill Kennedy, or Ray kill King? Do you think for even a moment that any of them believed they were morally wrong? As to Hitler, we'll never know for sure in this life, but I have to suspect even he felt he was morally justified in everything he did. For the greater good and all that crap. No, I certainly don't think we had any moral right or duty to kill Hitler because he was a monster. We did have a right to help protect others from his soldiers, however. Sorry, Stephen, but I don't award people extra bennies for their moral outrage. I just get real worried about what they'll do next. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Would you care to contrast the Terrorist attacks with military action to stop Hitler who's professed goal was to take over the world, and was killing Jews by the thousands in places like Auschwitz? It's too easy to deny distinctions. And recognizing them is a far cry from saying "God is always on our side". Do you think Hitler should not have been stopped? No one wants to answer that question. Everyone wants to keep on asserting that ALL military action whatsoever is always equatable with the most barbarous examples of agression. Before you pigeonhole me, just know that I don't think we should have gone to Iraq. I'm not a warmonger. And I agree with Jesus when he said "Those who live by the sword will die by the sword". But why should I believe that war is ALWAYS unjust? Even if I feel that I could never kill a man with arms ... even if I have a personal conviction of the futility of war to ultimately solve the problems? I think God created national authorities, Kings, Presidents, Generals, etc ... and gave them the power of the sword for a reason. They can wield it justly or unjustly. That's my only point. quote: Don't really know what to make of this. What then is the entity that YOU call God? How can you have a direct line to God, if you don't believe in him? Stephen |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: And just how might have that been done without killing someone? Why do you draw such a sudden distinction between Hitler and his soldiers? Because I was referring to Hitler, of course, and your response is a smokescreen. You're still avoiding the question. Protecting someone from his soldiers usually means to kill his soldiers, or at least some of them. quote: There's much gone wrong in the world because of an anemic LACK of moral outrage as well. And you don't have to worry about me Ron. I tend to pray, not to take up arms. Stephen. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron, “We did have a right to help protect others from his soldiers, however.” How and why was there a right? These others were an ocean away and unrelated. The soldiers were equally far and posed no imminent threat. What right justified actions as might and did cause deaths among them? Protect the king, kill the pawns? John |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I think you misunderstand my intent, Stephen. I'm not arguing the sanctity of life, but the futility of playing god. Killing to prevent great harm is a huge step, but I recognize it is sometimes a necessary step. Killing as pay back for great harm is neither necessary nor wise. The great difference between the two seems to be in knowing when you're done. Killing Hitler to stop his soldiers is "potentially" justifiable. Killing Hitler because he was a monster isn't. quote: I have one sister, John, living eight miles from my house, and another living 2,500 miles from my house. I have a friend across the street I see every day and another in California I haven't seen in seven years. There are charities I support who help people I've never met and never will meet. What was your question again? |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I'm so confused. I thought this was a thread about telling people to kill themselves. And, no, I would never tell somebody to do that, because I had somebody say that to me once, and I don't think there's anything more horrible to hear than "You're worthless and you make my life miserable, so why don't you just kill yourself?" I take it back. I just might say the very same to the person who said that to me, if I ever ran into that person again. And Brad's got a point... we don't always do what's moral. We could at least admit to being imperfect, instead of justifying it. Telling a person to commit suicide is never a right thing to do. Neither is killing someone, and I don't care if it's murder, war, or self-defense- it's never right. Justifiable at times, but never right. And I don't think I ever would, but let's see- a few years down the road, if I had a young daughter and found out that she was being molested... I don't know. I just don't know. Ron's right- moral outrage is a terribly dangerous thing... actually, any kind of outrage is. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron, "The soldiers were equally far and posed no imminent threat. What right justified actions as might and did cause deaths among them?" John |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: And moral considerations are not limited to "killing as pay back for great harm". There's a good argument to be made that that's actually a morally inferior choice. Maybe we agree more than we disagree here? Stephen. |
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