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for curiosities sake?
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for curiosities sake? |
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Syneq Junior Member
since 2002-07-28
Posts 40 |
This is but a question... In regards to afterlife, the hereafter, the possibility of none, etc. etc., do you ever find yourself saying "What if were wrong?" Why would you? Disintegrated to materialize in reformed delight. |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
Even in any other context, most of us face a moment or two or more where there is a natural dilemma as to if the thing we are doing is right or wrong... the "what if" governs us, and hence also acts as a controlling agent for austerity in our lives, somehow... WHY? probably because DOUBT is such an integral part of life just like BELIEF... A good measure of both seems to be healthy... Good luck with wisdom gathering...  Regards, sudhir |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"In regards to afterlife, the hereafter, the possibility of none, etc. etc., do you ever find yourself saying "What if were wrong?" ~ I don't understand what you are asking. "What if we are wrong?" or if I or you are wrong, as different people have different beliefs. Why would you? ~ Why would I what? |
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Moon Dust
since 1999-06-11
Posts 2177Skelmersdale, UK |
because none of us are perfect and there is a possiblity that each of us inderviduals could be wrong about certain beliefs If your afraid of the dark, then why did you come? |
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The Napkin Writer Member
since 2002-06-28
Posts 70 |
I’ve had a thousand and one thoughts of the afterlife over the years. I’m not even sure what my last vision was; in fact, I don’t think I’ve given it much thought up to these past couple weeks. I guess initially, everyone thinks of whatever place we were first taught. My teachings gave me thoughts of there being a magnificent Garden of Eden. I think the belief in the afterlife can in someway justify a “flip-side” to ones life. Similar to the biblical story told of the rich man, who dies and goes to hell, and sees Lazarus lying in Abraham’s bossom, and even ask that Abraham send Lazarus that his brothers not suffer the as he himself has. We know what Abraham answer was to him, but the scripture tells us more then a story of being the opposite of how we have lived. It becomes a story of stewardship, of our deeds in life, and not having to do with what we have gained in life, but what we have given each other whole heartily, open heartily, and with love. I often think of what contributions I like to give to the world over the coming years, of whatever years I may have left on this earth, and I think farther, of whether those contributions would be enough to outweigh the sins I have committed in my earlier years. This subject you speak of, “the afterlife,” burdens my heart when I retrace my life, knowing the truth of where I came from, the hate I held inside. How my life had to be beaten down in the pits of what I had become, confined to live in this pit of evilness in my heart, so that I know there is no more excuses for not knowing, that only Christ could have brung me back from where I once lived, and what I once believed. So maybe I do, deep inside, hope, for just a glimmer of what I have perceived the afterlife to be. No! It’s much more deeper than that! I dream, I imagine, and I pray that there is an afterlife, a flipside of what I’ve known in life! You know years ago, the fear of standing before Jesus, being condemned to hell, and never to find that peaceful paradise, stopped me from committing suicide! Funny thing this afterlife you speak of, reminding me of the secrecy I’ve held onto, wishing, praying, hoping, that I’d have a place there! Good topic, it made me stop, sit down and take out a pen I looking forward to hearing more responses on this subject Originally Yours, |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Syneq, It, like everything else, falls under the umbrella of faith. The evidence is out there for all to examine and to either believe or disbelieve based on one's peception of the "evidences". Questions and doubts are good as they lead us on to investigate until we come to a satisfactory conclusion that answers the deepest needs within. We've all had our questions and doubts. Without them we would never learn or even care to learn. Napkin Writer, I relate to much of what you have shared concerning your fears and your struggles. I've come to realize through years of searching that our contributions or good deeds could never outweigh our sins. Entrance into heaven requires perfect holiness, and none of us qualify. We don't owe God church membership, commitment, promises of obedience, submission, giving of money, baptism, etc. We owe God the death penalty for our sins, even if we had commited only one sin. That's where Christ comes into the picture. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16 God loves us soooo much that He provided the only possible remedy for our wretched situation and offers it to us as a gift to be freely received through faith in the substitutionary sacrifice of His Son. Jesus died our death for us and its benefit is appropriated, personally, through trusting in the sufficiency of His sacrifice on our behalf. When one is convinced of that fact, for themselves personally, they have assurance that they will enter heaven, not on their own merits, but on the merits of their Substitute. Any contributions or good works come into play after salvation out of a heart of love and gratitude and to bring glory to God in the hope of winning others to Christ and not as a condition for salvation. God is far more gracious and loving than most people know or could dare to hope. But for those open to checking it out, they will find Him to be more than they ever dreamed possible. I would suggest starting in the Gospel of John and then read through Romans, Ephesians, Galations, and the other Epistles. I would also suggest that one should wipe the slate clean of any preconceived notions or ideas one may have from their upbringing or from their church, etc., as they could be incorrect and lead to a faulty interpretation. I read a good description of saving faith once: "What do you believe and how do you believe it?" 'This is what I believe: That God is satisfied with the sacrifice of His Son. And I am satisfied with it: This is how I believe it.' I just came upon a great link that I will go look up and post here for any who care to check into for further insight. Be back in a bit. Here's the link. I hope it proves helpful. There is a whole list on the left hand side of the page for different topics. http://www.e-grace.net/salvation.html And here is another link that I just remembered. This guy preached at my church two Sundays ago. He was very good. http://freddiecoile.org/ [This message has been edited by Denise (07-30-2002 09:03 PM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
My thoughts on afterlife are: http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/afterlife.htm To say that I wonder if I may be wrong wouldn't encapsulate the broader knowledge that I cannot possibly be right. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
and a great one from walker http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/eht.html |
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The Napkin Writer Member
since 2002-06-28
Posts 70 |
Everytime I post anything, my thoughts, my opinions, my poetry, is forever being attacked. I wonder why? To tell you the truth, I'm getting sick and tired of hearing my name, so I'll keep my opinions to myself. I changed my mind, Holwwwwwww!!!! [This message has been edited by The Napkin Writer (07-31-2002 08:30 AM).] |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
Of course we all have those doubts. But when we're dead, we probably won't have them any more, one way or the other. And N.W., calm down. This forum is meant for deep, probing discussions. Those might feel like attacks, but they're attacks on the question posited, NOT on the poet posting said question. Said if I only could ... -KB [This message has been edited by bsquirrel (07-31-2002 02:58 PM).] |
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MidnightSon Member
since 2002-05-15
Posts 312between the gutter & the stars |
i have doubts about afterlife because no one's ever come back to give us the low down. i hope there's not an afterlife... this one's hard/strange/fun enough isn't it? but if there's a hell...well at least i won't be lonely. it's our struggle for identity that leaves us all unknown |
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Toad Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161 |
I don’t have doubts about the afterlife basically because I don’t have any strong beliefs either way, after all it’s hard to doubt what you don’t know, that would be doubting doubt so to speak. (If anyone understands what I’ve just written would they please reply and explain it to me so I at least look as if I know what I’m talking about if anyone asks me to elaborate) Thanks for the chance to read and reply |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
MidnightSon, If you find the time, read the gospel of John (and the other three also... Matthew, Mark, and Luke). There has been someone in History who "came back" to give us the low down... Jesus Christ. Of three things I am sure. 1) There is a Heaven. 2) There is a Hell. 3) Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again so that we would be able to avoid the latter and enjoy the former forever. But to agree with what several have said... who of us knows exactly what Heaven is like... or Hell? I do know that Heaven will be more glorious than anything imaginable. Stephen. |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
I really thought that the original question was In regards to afterlife, the hereafter, the possibility of none, etc. etc., do you ever find yourself saying "What if were wrong?" Why would you? and Stephanos, in my honest opinion, I don't believe you and nor can I comprehend how you can know.... maybe I am a moron, but when I read/hear some of the preachings here and at other places, I would rather be an uneducated, illiterate, imbecile... and I am sorry to myself to let this vent out ... Regards to all of you, Sudhir |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Sudhir, It's good to be honest. No offense taken that you are venting. It is a difficult subject altogether, and strong feelings are there no matter what you believe. Even those who believe that we can't be sure of anything in regard to the afterlife are irritated when anyone says that we can. I can relate. Until I was assured for myself, whenever someone talked about such things as if they knew, it struck me as arrogant, self-righteous, or just child-like foolishness. But as to what you said about the original question "do you ever find yourself saying "What if were wrong?"... My whole point is that we are wrong, all of us to some degree or another. But in History there is one who died, came back (literally) to tell us about it, and then ascended into the Heavens. So I am not trusting my own ideas about Heaven as much as I am hanging on the words of another, ... Christ. And even then he doesn't give me all the details (all the books in the world couldn't contain that), just how to attain it ... by trusting and believing the Good news of his salvation. It may sound like arrogance, but in reality I have counted my own ponderings about eternity to be very insignificant in light of what Jesus Christ teaches. . . I have given up for myself. Because in my own human evaluation I am always wrong. As to you, I would pose the question back again also. You feel that in regard to the afterlife, that no one can really know ... but what if you were wrong? What if we can know? And I am telling you as best I can, that we can indeed know. Isn't it attractive for just a moment to imagine that we can have some certainty about such weighty questions, and not always live in the maelstrom of human ideas and opinions? Just something to ponder. Respectfully, Stephen. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
From personal observation... the flipside to 'there are no atheists in foxholes' -- is I've never seen a dying person who wasn't afraid -- at least a little. [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (08-07-2002 12:05 AM).] |
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CwboyAtHeart Senior Member
since 2001-04-14
Posts 541Selah, WA, USA |
I believe very strongly in God and I have strong Christian values. I definitely believe that there is a heaven and I plan on going there in the afterlife. However... If I were wrong, which I have faith that I'm not... I believe that we would simply seize to exist after death. If I died and there was no heaven, then my life still would have been lived very well, with great values, a family that loved me, a great church "family"... I would have lived believing in God, so I would have no fear toward death. I think that if the afterlife isn't what I believe it will be, that my life still would be well lived, and my faith in God still being very good for me to pull me through tough times. - Cody - |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
there is a possibility that were wrong? I always thought I was right.  J/K I guess as humans nothing is a 100% unless proven otherwise. We need proof. Personally, I go by my faith and hope that holds me. I guess if I was proven wrong, I would be dead so it woulden't matter. But if for some reason they prove it now, me being a human, I would still question it. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
I am sure that there is no hell or heaven. The concepts of both hell and heaven are man-made and can be traced as far back as archeology and history can reach. That people tell others that if they do not believe in or live a certain way, or believe in a certain being, that they are to suffer forever in a hellfire for not believing...disgusts me. |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
does the concept of afterlife have anything to do with christianity or any other religion for that matter? just aimlessly questioning... for curiosities sake?  regards, sudhir |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Of course it does Man also created the concept of having a "soul." Many uneducated people believe that the idea of an immortal soul originated with Christianity and the Bible, however that is not true. The immortal soul doctrine, as we know it today, was derived through ancient Greek philosphy.[This message has been edited by Opeth (09-20-2002 12:17 PM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Opeth, I envy you your certainty. But not your need to justify it. Eating can be traced as far back as archeology and history can reach, too. So? Sudhir, life-after-death predates Christianity by at least a few thousand years and is a tenet in most religions. That, and a host of such commonalties, are often used as arguments against religion, but they can just as easily be used as argument for religion. What do you do when your stomach grumbles and you recognize the discomfort of hunger? You eat, regardless of your epoch or culture. And even if the food isn't nutritionally sound, it gets you through the day. If one presupposes a spirit side of humanity, it's not difficult to argue that separation from our creator has left a spiritual hunger we've been trying to assuage since time immemorial. Justification is a double-edged sword that cuts in any direction. It's still nothing more than justification, and only wears the mask of logic. In the end, we usually believe what we want to believe. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Question. Why do humans always have to have "proof" and a trail of paperwork to "believe" Can't faith be enough? [This message has been edited by Miah (09-20-2002 03:56 PM).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
"Can't faith be enough?" No. Gotta run. More later. Jim |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
jbouder, Why not? |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Miah: Because faith always has an object. For the Christian, the object of faith is the life, death, resurrection, ascention and, additionally, the promises to believers in Christ associated with those events. Faith is grounded in fact. In Christianity, faith wasn't considered a "blind leap" until the likes of Karl Barth and Soren Kierkegard entered the scene. It seems that your definition of faith has been influenced by the philosophies of these men. Besides, if you cannot ascertain the object of your faith, what is there to distinguish a spiritual experience from a case of hearburn? Jim |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Thanks, I never really looked at it in that light before. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim, indeed that is a good point and I agree. However I think it would be wisdom to consider something else in light of what you said about Faith not being enough, but rather faith based on facts. An important point is that Faith in those facts is enough, even when one does not have indisputable empirical proof about their occurrence. Even the abundant evidence supplied (and I agree with you that there is plenty) does not provide the absolute "proof" that many are demanding of God. In other words, the evidence still leaves a space ... a choice ... a question mark that can only be answered by faith. Perhaps that's why the apostles were instructed to "Preach the Gospel to all of creation" and not to prove the gospel to all of creation. The accounts are to be believed for their own sake ... for, if they are real, they have the power and sense of realism behind them. I'm just saying that not everyone needs the stringent arguments of the apologists in order to believe the gospel. They seem to be more for those who are having some intellectual difficulty believing. For those who are, apologetics and "proofs" are wonderful at helping to remove a haunting sense of implausibility so that faith may have a clear path to walk on. But Finding Christ as God in your own heart and mind (apart from historical, and philosophical proofs) is no small thing ... especially if he presents himself in such a way that only a God can. But having said that, I still think we agree ... Faith alone is not enough (hang on Martin before you shout 'heresy') ... but faith founded in the truth and supported by compelling facts is enough. And that is exactly what the Christian "Faith" is. Oh yeah... and let us not forget that behind the Christian Faith is a living God who can communicate and convey his truth in any avenue he desires... experience, science, history, art, allegory, emotion ... and the list goes on.Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (09-24-2002 10:52 AM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Opeth, I envy you your certainty. But not your need to justify it. Eating can be traced as far back as archeology and history can reach, too. So?" Certainty through studying history. Many people are mere parrots, repeating what is told to them. The key is to be able to rid oneself of the worldview in which one holds onto; To be completely objective in one's search. This is a very difficult task, indeed. It may cause one to become a piriah in their community. Through much research on the subject matter, after shedding my worldview and own beliefs, and with a completely objective mind, I too have faith, faith that what I have discovered is indeed the truth. I wrote a paper on Christianity and the Immortal Soul doctrine, and through reading the historical references, I have no doubt in my mind that the issue of the immortality of the soul was injected into Christianity through the philosophy of Socrates and Plato, in which Thomas Aquinas, Augustine and the other early church followers believed in. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Stephan: I thought I smelled a seminarian ...  I agree with most of your points, although (and I think you agree) the object of saving faith in Christianity can be reduced to the life and resurrection of the historical Jesus Christ. Acknowledgement of these facts is, after all, an element of saving faith. In most Christian theology, faith in an abstract "concept" of God is insufficient ... that is, it is not "saving" faith. As far as God being able to convey his truth through "experience, science, history, art, allegory, emotion" ... I hope you are not suggesting an "open canon" of sorts. That would most certainly be a minority view. In terms of General Revelation, I agree with you ... if you are suggesting Special Revelation exists through these mediums, I would have to strongly disagree. Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim, never been to seminary, but I'm very interested in the one whom seminarians say it's all about. I think we are in agreement. What I was referring to about revelation through "experience, science, history, art, allegory, emotion..." is either general revelation that will facilitate seeking in those who recieve it, or Christian expression which is more specific. General revelation can cause men to know that God exists... specific revelation causes men to know that God saves. The Christian expression I see as coming primarily through the arts. These are no new revelations but different ways to convey the gospel. If a man is a poet, and becomes a devoted Christian, he cannont in my opinion write poetry that will not reflect Christ is some degree or another. Why? Because Christ is in him. Even his poetry that is not overtly "Christian" will be reflecting the truth. Take for example J.R.R. Tolkien, a Christian who wrote The Lord of the Rings, which is not overtly Christian but reflective of a Judeo-Christian worldview and full of allegorical truth. Then you have more overt renderings such as Bunyan's Pilgrim's progress. I'm rambling, but my point is that the gospel is preached in many ways. But to ease your concern... No, I do not believe in any saving revelation to mankind apart from the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible. I don't believe any other books in history are "God-breathed" like those 66 are, though many works are blessed of God and have led men to the Bible to learn the truth more accurately. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (09-24-2002 05:06 PM).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Stephan: You know Tolkien adamantly insisted that the Rings trilogy was not allegorical (even though I think there are too many "coincidences" in his writing that contradict his assertion). An interesting read for you might be "Myth, Allegory and Gospel" ed. John Warwick Montgomery. Enjoyed the exchange. Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Opeth, you wrote: "The key is to be able to rid oneself of the worldview in which one holds onto; To be completely objective in one's search." and, "Through much research on the subject matter, after shedding my worldview and own beliefs, and with a completely objective mind, I too have faith, faith that what I have discovered is indeed the truth." To rid oneself of his worldview is only possible in the sense of slipping into another worldview. I doubt that anyone could do this so completely as to not be influenced by the culture of what they are rejecting. My point is, I think it is impossible for someone to become completely objective and stand "outside" of all worldviews and choose one arbitrarily. Because your worldview includes your values and ethics (something on which to base your judgement and choosing), you cannot dispense of it, or choose anything without it. If you could get completely outside of this kind of thing, what basis would have for choosing a worldview? What standard are you appealing to? You are now choosing a worldview from the standards of your worldview already. I don't really think you have "shed" all worldviews in order to choose. That would be as impossible as leaving your mind and history and thoughts in order to obtain something original. It would be kind of like plucking out your eyes in order to see them. All things of your past are part of your choosing now. I think what may have happened is that a great deal of what is your worldview has changed. Also, the idea of your worldview being original seems to me questionable. Nothing I've heard you say strikes me as new or novel in the world of ideas. I would suggest that the worldview which has been adopted by you has and is held by others. I'm not quite sure how your beliefs differ from atheism, or agnosticism, or secular humanism. If you think they do I would like to hear how. Even though I am a Christian I am aware that my worldview is not new, novel, or original. The Christian worldview itself was built upon the foundation of a monotheistic worldview held by the Jews. However, I am in no way saying that all worldviews are equally valid, or invalid. I just don't think there are any "new" ones to choose from. The ones that are here are basically the ones that always were ... with some expansions, contractions, and alterations here and there. (and Brad, yes this includes the possiblity of divine Revelation to augment what is already here by God's providence). It may seem to some, that by my view I am saying that truth is of humanity and wholly cultural but I am not. Opeth, for you to say that you shed yourself of all worldviews and that you discovered the "truth" is amazing. If this is so, you have to say that your present viewpoint has been held by none prior to you, and yet is the absolute truth apart from your own previous views. You are suggesting objective truth that no one else but you has seen. Is the truth that veiled? Or are you that priviledge to be the sole finder? Brad knows that I would also agree that there is objective truth (God's own)... but that doesn't mean that it is not obtained through humanity, history, and culture. My whole assertion is that it is impossible to completely extricate yourself from the arena of worldviews in order to decide on one. They are already here... and you and I both hold one or another of them. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (09-24-2002 09:53 PM).] |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim, you may be right in saying that Tolkien denied that LOTR was allegory. However I just read a biography of C.S. Lewis where Tolkien was described as persuading Lewis to the truth of Christianity. The way he did so was by analyzing Lewis' own love of mythology. He always professed that there seemed to be something "other", something "beyond", expressed through good storytelling... something he craved and loved. But his atheistic worldview told him that this was non-sense. He considered myths to be "lies". But Tolkien helped him to see that myths are not mere lies, but stories that reflect the truth. The "truth" they convey is their captivating power. He even referred to the gospel of Christ as God's myth... the one grand myth that was true and that truly happened in history. I guess this is a literary way of understanding and coming to Christ, but it worked for them. But even if Tokien denied that LOTR was allegory about the Christian faith (which I never thought it explicitly was like Bunyan), this would prove my point even moreso. A Christian man expresses Christ in his art, consciously or unconsiously. Because it is inside of him and his worldview. Interesting topic, Stephen |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"To rid oneself of his worldview is only possible in the sense of slipping into another worldview." ~ This statement alone could be argued. "I doubt that anyone could do this so completely as to not be influenced by the culture of what they are rejecting." ~ If that is true, that is okay. Because if one is still somewhat influenced by their own culture and in their search/study still find grounds to reject it, then they were still objective in their search. "My point is, I think it is impossible for someone to become completely objective and stand "outside" of all worldviews and choose one arbitrarily." ~ Difficult, but not impossible. "Because your worldview includes your values and ethics (something on which to base your judgement and choosing), you cannot dispense of it, or choose anything without it. If you could get completely outside of this kind of thing, what basis would have for choosing a worldview?" ~ Because this is the Internet, and because I myself lack the time to be as thorough as I would like to be when discussing these issues, let me quickly put this way...the worldview of religion/God that I personaly held, not really talking about values and ethics persay. Sticking with the issue of a worldview and religion/God/faith = my beliefs. "What standard are you appealing to? You are now choosing a worldview from the standards of your worldview already." ~ I was raised and taught that a Christian God is THE God = worldview on religion. I shed myself of that worldview and with a totally objective mind, free from automatically believing in what I was taught my whole life and went on my own spiritual journey. "Opeth, for you to say that you shed yourself of all worldviews and that you discovered the "truth" is amazing." ~ I beg to differ, far less amazing then christians proclaiming that Jesus is the only way to salvation. That one must believe and accept Christ as one's saviour and become "born again." "If this is so, you have to say that your present viewpoint has been held by none prior to you, and yet is the absolute truth apart from your own previous views." ~ I do not have to say that. I am not saying that. This isn't a one way or another situation. My truth may indeed be unique, but then again it may not. Others may have discovered the same. I do not make any such claims either way. Nor do I care to. [This message has been edited by Opeth (09-25-2002 09:25 AM).] |
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