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This really burns my biscuits...
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This really burns my biscuits... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648
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I heard on the news last night that the PC crowd is at it again. They want to prevent the celebration of Christmas in an effort not to offend anyone who doesn't celebrate it. They want it renamed Winter Festival, or some such generic name nonsense. Why? Do people who celebrate Chistmas demand that others not celebrate their chosen holidays? Of course not. Are we offended when other nationalities/religions/races observe their special days? No. One school actually had to cancel their planned class trip to see the "Christmas Carol" because the play had a Christmas theme/background and some parents objected and obviously had some political clout behind them. Come on. Couldn't they have just planned an alternative trip for their children if they felt so strongly about it, instead of thowing their weight around and ruining the trip for the rest of the class? I just don't get it. Maybe it's all just a power trip for some people? Well, it offends me that so many people are so easily offended by everything and have such a non-tolerant attitude, all the while demanding the very same tolerance that they are so unwilling to give to anyone else. I have a message for them. Christmas ain't going away, so deal with it. |
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Dark Angel Member Patricius
since 1999-08-04
Posts 10095 |
YAY Denise, you go girl!!! I totally agree with you. Maree  [This message has been edited by Dark Angel (12-01-2002 08:35 PM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Bah Humbug on them. Keep planning the Christmas Festivals, Denise...because there is more than commercialism driving the season, and you and I know EXACTLY whom to talk to! See you and your folded hands in a little while! |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I think having your own celebrations is good. But I like the idea of a general 'holiday celebration' that encompasses every religion and belief. We learn about each other more when we let down our barriers and learn about other celebrations. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
If you don't want to celebrate Christmas don't. I want to personally, it's not only my religion but I love the closeness I have with my family on that day. People who do not wish to celebrate it don't, simple as that. I respect people that have a different belief than I do, I feel they have a right to celebrate their holiday the way they want to. Just don't force the majority to cancel their holiday. If you don't want your child going to see a christmas play, then don't send them, maybe insted of being all huffy try working with the school to do something else, a general play or something. So everyone can be happy. so on that note Happy Holiday everyone! be it whatever holiday you celebrate CHEERS!!!  |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I think we need to let everyone have their own celebrations..if that group who didn't want to go to see the Christmas play, they should respect the Christians and just not go...it's a two way street. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
what makes these people that christmas means what it used to anyway? |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Poet deVine and Christopher, I do agree with you both. I admit, I do get swept up in the holiday rush I sometimes forget the true meaning of it all. However, come Christmas I remember why it is so special and how truly meaningful it is. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Denise, Are you a victim? |
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lildevil Junior Member
since 2002-11-21
Posts 47missouri,usa |
i totaly agree with a person should have the right to celibrate what ever holiday they want to with out some over opipioned hypocrite telling them not to and what really amazed me was just yesterday i found out in the state of missourithere cant be a manger scene at any federal location without representing every religion you could never beleive how taky the court house looks where i live |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
I agree with PDV... I personally like the idea of generalizing the mainstream terminology to include other religious (or non-religious) celebrations that happen to occur around the winter holidays. It's just more accurate that way. I'd venture a guess that less than 10% of all people think of Christ when they hear the word Christmas, which is kind of funny when you think about it... I do think that we should keep the word Christmas specific to those who mean it in a religious way. Right now Christmas seems to generalize all of the different religious holidays around this time of year, when it's really a specific term, and not a general one... I'd like to see use of the word Christmas related a little more closely to Christianity than it is now. Ideally, children who hear the word "Christmas" would think of Christ, and not just presents and trees and whatnot. This can definitely have positive religious implications for the Christian community, Denise. Think about how much more your children will connect Christmas to God than they would have, if they make the Christmas-Christ connection instead of the Christmas-Presents connection. Parasite Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
so called political correctness breeds dullness and inacceptance; under the guise of nonexclusion the philosophy and practice intrudes, refuses, alienates and angers, rightly so, this dangerous practice bland and denying, under a pretense of trying to assemble and unite, there instead, are slights and separation so sad the creation of right and wrong by those who claim to corner the market |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Alright. Christmas is too Christian? Change it all then. NO PASSOVER NO RAMADAN NO KWANZAA NO HALLOWEEN (yeah, I know this is mainly a candy thing, but isn't it still a Wiccan Holiday? Forgive my ignorance on this one) If you're going to change one religious holiday, just change them all. Most of us go to our grave with our music still inside of us. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I'm with you, Denise. Why the minority gets to dictate the rules is beyond me....consider my biscuits burned, too! ...and one doesn't have to wait to be a victim to speak out against stupidity or injustice...we will be soon enough. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Maree, You've always struck me as a common-sensical person! Sharon and LP, Well, I don't see anything wrong with having a winter festival in the least, if that's what people want. They should create a new holiday then. They just shouldn't take Christmas and change it into a sectarian holiday (Madison Avenue has dibs on that!) in order to accomodate themselves and others who are overly-sensitive about anything with any kind of religious significance, because religion offends them. Karilea, so true, so true! In the end, that's what makes all the nonsense bearable, isn't it?! Miah, May Christmas cheer fill up your heart throughout the year! Christopher, I think the PC crowd just wants to strip it of the last vestiges of sprituality that it has left, because they find Christ offensive. Brad, not in the least. Just fed up to my eyeballs with PC nonsense. It gets more nonsensical everytime they open their mouths, no matter the topic du jour, religious or otherwise. lildevil, I can see the point about not having religious artifacts on government buildings and property. I tend to agree that it isn't appropriate due to the separation of Church and State issue which I see as a real good thing in our Constitution. We'd never want to end up with a State sponsored religion or a church sponsored state. I think they should stay as separate as possible. We don't have to look too far in the world to see what kind of damage can be done by that type of situation. I, too, think it is totally ludicrous to try to represent every religious affiliation on City Hall or the Courthouse steps at Christmas or for any other religious holiday. I don't see that any of them belong on government buildings. Any such artifacts can be appropriately displayed on private homes and property, churches, synagogues, mosques, meeting halls, etc. LoveBug, Yep, if you want to get rid of one, then it follows that you must get rid of them all. That would only be politically correct, right? Doreen, I agree. I think that the division that they cause due to their suppossed attempts at providing a non-offensive environment for everyone is inevitable because inoffensiveness isn't their real goal. I see it as a power play to try to reshape society's thinking to their way of viewing things, so that they, the minority, can one day become the majority. They are just lusting for power. Balladeer, You and I come from a simpler time and place, don't we? I miss those days more and more. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
And what simpler time would that be? Isaac Asimov said that the golden age of science fiction is when you're twelve. I suspect that's the simpler time you refer to, Denise. Okay, I admit that I'm torn here. I find such things as stupid as everyone else, but I find the reactions just as annoying. While some are willing to generalize, let's all get together and call it a Winter Festival, we need to respect others' beliefs, some see it as an opportunity -- Make Christmas for Christians again, bring back spirtuality and all that. blah, blah, blah. America has a culture, it has a history, and it is not pretty, simple, or glorious. Both sides of this argument are trying to deny it. On the one, you have people believing that the past was simpler (The Cold War? Vietnam? Korea? Segregation? A Woman's Place? Slavery?), and on the other you have people attempting to turn America into a sterile dystopia. It's all so American. Right now, I can't think of a good reason to go back. Every once in a while, I remember the last time I was in the States and a friend said, "When are you going to come back to the real world?" Sorry, I live in the real world, you guys already live in a boring, sterile, dystopian fantasy world. The PC folks have already won because you dignify it. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, I was thinking more of a time when there was a bit more respect and tolerance, more of a live and let live type of attitude in general toward others and their beliefs and customs, not as much acrimony, not so much in-your-face type of cultural conflict, on the whole. Sure, America was not perfect, the world was not perfect, but I have seen a definite decline in this area in recent years (and this trend I see can hardly just be an American phenomenon). As messed up as it may have been a couple of decades ago, it was a gentler time, comparitively speaking. Some of America's history wasn't pretty or glorious, but by the same token, much of it was. We can't paint it all with black strokes or with golden ones. Neither paints the complete picture. I don't begrudge anyone from celebrating Christmas. For many it is just a secular holiday. So be it. It is what it is to each person. What bothers me are those who aren't content with that, who try to change it to suit their outlook and force their ways on others, usually through political means, threatening lawsuits, etc. Sometimes you just have to say enough is enough. I don't necessarily agree that we dignify those we don't agree with by verbalizing our disagreement with them. I believe that by voicing our opinion we let them know that there are others who have a voice and who don't swallow their viewpoints hook, line and sinker. I think it is a mistake to keep quiet when you feel strongly about something. Even the most outlandish ideas can gain a foothold in society when there is no discernable opposition to it. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Arrgh!!!! As trivial as I think this is, you have a point, Denise. Absurdity can take over. I still see it as another photo op for politicians though. As long as this continues, the Left will continue to play into the hands of the Right. Ah, but I still think your kinder, gentler world of yesteryear is an exercise in nostalgia. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Brad said quote: Yes, Brad, it probably is. But it would be what I would want for my children and their children. A kinder, gentler world. Was ours really that kind? Balladeer, Denise and I are all probably of a similar age. No, our world was not all that kinder. We had McCarthyism, we had the Korean War. We were coming out of the tyranny of one time and looking toward yet another that we could not even have anticipated, although the writers did, and wrote science fiction of what could come. See how close they were? What we see on the streets of so many nations, anymore, is the indifference of a vast majority of the future's younger leaders saying "it doesn't matter what I say or do - no one cares, and no one can change what goes on..." Oh? How do we know? Have we all really tried? Denise is doing one thing, as she always does, so well. She is standing up for her beliefs. If I may be so bold to speak for her for a moment, it is not about what we can present each other as a gift. It is more of giving ourselves as a gift to others. It IS in understanding that she brings this thread up - why is it she can understand the minority parents who think it's not politically correct to celebrate Christmas...where is THEIR understanding? Good discussion, people. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
As long as all the colors of the rainbow are allowed to shine, I don't feel any one colors is superior to the next, and religions colors everything in this world. Celebrate Christmas, celebrated the festival of lights, Ramadan, and all of them. But maintaining the separation between church/religion (or the lack-therof) and the GOVERNMENT is what keeps us all free to follow our own starlight. I celebrate with you, Denise, as well as celebrating the festival of lights, OM chanting, and circling 'round with the wiccans. There are so many beautiful traditions, and they should all be allowed to flourish when they don't invade another's free space. Thanks for an interesting timely holiday thread. Happy Holidays to all. |
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quietlydying
since 2001-06-10
Posts 935the wonderful land of oz |
'christmas isn't about the spirit of giving. it's about the spirit of obligation.' [anonymous] /jen/ i'm so bitterly disappointed. betty, i think it's time you leave now. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Hard to tell what you meant there but what's wrong with obligation? |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
Did she say there's anything wrong with it, Brad? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
No, but the question still stands. |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
touche... |
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quietlydying
since 2001-06-10
Posts 935the wonderful land of oz |
 /jen/ i'm freezing, i'm starving, i'm bleeding to death. everything's fine. [tracy bonham] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Brad, I agree with you. If you can't think of a good reason to come back, then don't. You have the choice. For all of the faults America has, many of us feel that that there are good points, too...points that make America a good place to live and enjoy the freedoms it offers to respect. If you are of the opinion these points don't exist, then it would be unreasonable for you to willingly subject yourself to such an unhappy existence. I would support your decision not to return to the fullest. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks, Michael. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: It's a wonderful country, ain't it? |
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Krawdad Member Elite
since 2001-01-03
Posts 2597 |
Interesting discussion, Denise. I don't know why we tend to get upset when our particular traditions get stepped on. Is it lack of confidence, ego, nostalgia or all of the above? Maybe it's fear. As I see it, winter celebrations, more properly solstice celebrations, are all about fear, fear of the unknown (or about hope, from another angle). "What's going to happen when the sun goes out?" (at least in the Northern Hemisphere for now) was the question probably asked in ancient times. One would think that earlier solstice events were conducted as either payments for or celebrations of the sun's return, which would allay the threat and fear of shortening and cooling days. Surely folks believed (hoped) that their efforts would make a difference, or at least pay homage to the powers "in charge". Is it that much different to fear one's personal lights going out? All religions play on that fear of course. The near-solstice christian holiday was deliberately scheduled to supplant those earlier solstice (and horrifically pagan?) celebrations. The idea of course is "if you can't beat 'em, overwhelm 'em". In any case, enjoy the Solstice, or Christmas or whatever allays your fears or gives you hope. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Krawdad, I agree with you quite a bit- Here's how I see it. November is quite possible the bleakest, ugliest month in the calender. But hey, you know what I get after November? I get Christmas, chock-full of trips to the mall, plans of what I'm going to buy people, putting up trees and lights- now I know a lot of people get really depressed during the holidy season- but I come out of my November foul mood. I thnk that's what winter celebrations are meant to do- alleviate the monotony, cabin fever, and depression of winter. |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
I can see why some non-Christians are anti-Christmas, they want the holiday, the presents, the family gatherings but resent the religious undertones that accompany it. Buying into the Christmas spirit is tantamount to signing up to the whole Christ in a manger, angels and halos trip that they spend 360 days of the year vehemently avoiding. The strange thing is that most Christians I know believe Christmas has gone in exactly the opposite direction, it isn't about Christ anymore, the manger, angels and halos have now become a Christmas Corporate marketing tool not dissimilar to the Golden Arches of burger fame. People, at least the people on this side of the pond, don’t associate Christ with Christmas at all anymore, ask them the one person they think about at this time of year and you’re more likely to hear Father Christmas or Santa Claus than JC. Personally I think everyone should get what they want out of Christmas, and I fervently believe that what that should be for Christians is a reflection and concentration on the object of their faith. In that respect the PC brigade should keep their hands off Christmas but, and this is a big but, the Christians shouldn’t try to monopolise the winter break and claim it solely as a Christian holiday, it is not nor has ever been. Celebrate your belief to your hearts content but leave everyone else to celebrate theirs in peace. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Karilea, You can speak for me anytime. The giving of oneself to those around us is the best gift that we can give. As for nostalgia, perhaps a touch. I do believe, though, that the world, though never free of pain and trouble has definitely made a nose-dive in recent decades. It is a more mean-spirited place, a more me-centered place, today than when I was younger. By comparison it seems that those days were gentle days indeed. Midnightsun, Krawdad, and Phaedrus, Christmas, as everything else, is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone brings to it their own history, worldview, sentimentalities, etc. And then, some celebrate entirely different holidays this time of year. Everyone is entitled to celebrate whatever holiday they want to celebrate, whether it be the Festival of Lights, Christmas, Ramadan, the Winter Solstice, whatever. For those who wish to have their own generic non-religious Winter Festival, go for it. As I said, earlier, what offends me are the people who are so easily offended at anything with a religious significance and try to force their views onto others through political means, lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, etc., demanding that things be their way or no way, in this particular case, the doing away with "Christmas" and the replacing of it with "Winter Festival". Does it really matter today, or was it so egregious a happening, that centuries ago the people took their pagan holiday festivals, which was all they knew their entire lives, and reinvented them, filling them with the meaning of their new found faith? I don't think so. I think the important thing was that they had a new reason for their celebrations. And I don't think this should lessen or invalidate the special signigicance that it holds for Christians today. Brad, Why such angst against America? I know we aren't the only country in the world that allows and encourages the free debate of ideas and issues, which often lead to dissention and controversy. That would only be inevitable, wouldn't it, wherever the right to free speech (that most of us are only too glad to exercise!), an important and necessary component of liberty, is allowed? Or am I way off base and something else is bothering you? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
How about this: http://www2.gol.com/users/coynerhm/background_on_us_tank_accident_i.htm Now, imagine Korea is Virginia. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, I remember that tragic accident. Heartwrenching, indeed. What specifically triggers your anger regarding the article? The accident itself, the presence of US troops in Korea, the indictment of the soldiers, the politics on both sides leading to the indictment, or the acquittals? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Actually, none of the above. What bothers me is that many will respond with, "Well, we're there to help them. What are they complaining about?" Or, "It's all political." It would still be political in Virginia. Or maybe they'll try to change the name of a national holiday. You help me. When my students tell me America is a bad country because . . . How should I respond? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, there are many things that we all get peeved about in life, some little, some big, and some enormous. It doesn't do any good to bottle it up inside. That only leads to frustration and bitterness. Sometimes after venting we see things more clearly ourselves and are able to put things in their proper perspective. I guess changing the name of a holiday is, for all practical purposes, no big deal. It still wouldn't change the holiday or what it means to those who celebrate it. That I understand. I guess my gripe was more about the whole PC nonsense, how rediculous, demanding and self-serving its advocates tend to be, in my view. That doesn't elevate it to a life and death type of problem though. Just something I had to vent about. Your response would depend on what follows the "because...". What are generally some of those reasons, and how do you currently answer them? I can't think of anyone more qualified to answer them than someone who has lived in both worlds. I'd be interested in hearing some of their statements and your answers, if you'd care to share them. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Tell your students there's no such thing as a bad country, Brad. There are only bad people. More correctly, of course, there are only people with their own agenda, some of whom are willing to sacrifice equity and justice to further their goals at the expense of others. Judging by the article and its interpretation of the current political climate in Korea, your students should be able to understand that. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
I have a wonderful recipe for cranberry butter that I'd be happy to share with you. We can put it on our burnt biscuits on Christmas morning. (I don't know the answer to the sugar substitute thing)... The majority of this country obviously celebrates Christmas. We already call our school vacation the "winter break," and I think that's sufficient to include non-Christian believers... I see no reason to downplay the fact that we have a major festive holiday in December. I'm happy to learn about others and their reasons for their celebrations. If they don't make me aware of them, of course... How will I know they exist? Christmas is a joyous celebration, folks... Enjoy it. Um.. Is Santa a Christian? I always thought he could bring gifts to EVERY child. He doesn't have to bypass non-Christian children, does he?... |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'I do believe, though, that the world, though never free of pain and trouble has definitely made a nose-dive in recent decades. It is a more mean-spirited place, a more me-centered place, today than when I was younger.' Denise- what do you think caused this, as opposed to when you were younger? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ron, But that also means there's no such thing as a good country. I'm sure you don't have any problems with that, but that's just not how people speak. And still, in so many ways, it's another version of the PC nonsense that bothers Denise and I as well. Is it true? Sure, but it's the wrong language game. For that to a successful counter, a number of assumptions have to be explained, and most of them are peculiarly American assumptions that Americans attempt to universalize. And then ignore. 1. All men and women are equal in the Creator's eyes. 2. Nations, collectives, and societies don't really exist, only individuals do.(Okay, I'm thinking of Thatcher now, let's call her an honorary American.) 3. Venting is a natural and healthy thing to do. 4. Corollary of one: the Strong can make mistakes just as much as the Weak. These are just off the top of my head, but one and two are directly countered by the SOFA. Americans do not accept that Koreans have the same right to justice that Americans claim for themselves. Many arguments have been brought out to secure a kind of 'equal partnership' agreement, but America simply doesn't want that. Let's put it more clearly, Americans don't want that. Koreans believe that American soldiers, the rank and file, have something like 'diplomatic immunity', the kind that Mel Gibson and Danny Glover fought in Lethal Weapon 2. Americans believe that it is impossible to get a fair trial and this immunity is necessary. Koreans see it as a power play, the strong Americans manhandling the weak Koreans. But, Americans see it as lone Americans (and therefore weak) against a sovereign government (and therefore strong). Both sides are playing the victim card. Both sides are playing politics. But Michael's general profundity is valid for Korea just as much as it is America, Korea has its faults but has many good points. I suspect that that can be said about any country that can reproduce itself after one generation. Can they get a fair trial in Korea? My answer is yes, provisionally, because I'm not sure what people in America mean by fair trial anymore. It would seem that it would mean as long as you agree with it, it's fair. I believe that even if a Korean court had handed down the exact same sentence, Americans would have seen it as unfair, biased, the result of jealousy on the part of the Koreans etc. But for all the Korean venting you hear, most are pretty good people, trying to get ahead, worried about their families, and, yes, would expect the full support of their 'Big Brother' (I don't know if this pun should be intended or not) in any act of war. Besides you can make a good case that, politically, it's in Korea's best interest to have a fair trial. All of this is brushed aside however. It was not my intention to go into Korean/American relations here, but to show a parallel between the PC nonsense that I think Denise is correct in her description: quote: I think that's exactly how they act. The problem is that the same description can be applied to the venting above: in Korea, in America, in Palestine. But a vent is a sign of powerlessness, it is to take the role of the victim by definition (Sorry, Denise, I know that you dislike this idea, but the rhetorical strategy is there even if you aren't conscious of it. Michael does it too. I've done it as well. I think it's a part of all of us to do this at times.) I just think we need to be aware that that is what we are doing. Why do we need to be aware of this? There's an old Star Trek episode, The Organian Peace Treaty, where Kirk explodes on the Organians for taking control of the weapons and ships about to go to war with the Klingons, "You have no right . . ." Organian guy: "Do you really want to see the deaths of countless thousands, of millions of innocent people?" (Or something like that, this is from memory). Kirk: (In a display of overacting that only Shatner can produce). Well, no one wants war. Denise, I like that last post a lot. But that venting has a down side to it as well and I guess instead of standing in solidarity with you against the barbarians who would demolish and sterilize and secularize American mainstream culture (I'm all for secular government.), I guess I just wanted to point that out. Playing the game of venting and counter-venting is a dangerous one -- it may be a release of rage but it can also stockpile righteous indignation in others. ----------------- What is my response to my students? Well, to be honest, when I hear some criticize America or when someone brings such criticism to my attention (and strangely enough they also bring criticism of Japan to my attention), I usually respond with, "Yeah, you're right. I hate them. The Japanese are silly. Americans are stupid. And Koreans are childish." And smile. Misanthrophy has its rhetorical advantages just as much as universal love. And it's just as meaningless. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
You can consider me in the "biscuit burning section" too. I just returned from my first of many Christmas concerts having heard the words to age old Christmas carols changed. I was horrified!  and a parent told me that even the television commercials are calling it "The Twelve Days of Giving" and not Christmas. (Radio Shack was one she mentioned). I had to speak to one of the music teachers after. She informed me that because of the large Iranian, and ESL student population of this school they had to make "minor" changes to accommodate all of the children and their parents. Well, I am waiting to see what they do at St. Thomas Aquinas on Saturday, this ought to be good! This is a private Catholic School where all races attend, and if I don't hear Christmas in those carols, I am going to start booing! Denise, I join you. I may not be the most religious person in the world, but I sure respect those that are, and that means all people. The very one thing that could pull this world together always seems to separate us and always has.By the way, Winterfest in Vancouver is wonderful and anyone can attend - and thousands do. That still doesn't mean taking away an age old tradition. And Brian, what is wrong with associating Christmas with loads of presents, I have been really good all year and can't wait  I realize this discussion will head in a political direction so I had to tell you I am very sad I didn't get to hear, the "Twelve Days of Christmas". I bet all those children of every color who sang that gets a present from Santa anyway, and says, "Merry Christmas" that morning. [This message has been edited by Mysteria (12-05-2002 05:22 PM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Hush, I would attribute it to the gradual decrease over time of moral absolutes in society in general, leading to, I believe, an increase in self-absorption/gratification, naturally resulting in a me-first attitude, often/even at the expense of others. 'Others' no longer hold equal footing with 'self', let alone, heaven forbid, given precedent over 'self'. Looking back, I guess I can see the beginnings of this in the late '60's, early 70's. Not saying it didn't exist prior to that, but I think this is when it came into its own as an accepted, wide-spread philosophy. Long held values were questioned, and in some cases, discarded as archaic, unnecessary and inhibiting to the 'realization' of the individual. Even simple things like 'manners' became devalued to a large extent. We wouldn't want to teach our children to be mannerly and respect their elders, for instance, why that might crush their little self-expressive spirits! (Was this the beginnings of the PC movement?) And so now, today, we have many young children walking down the street using language that would embarrass a drunken sailor, practically knocking you over to get past you, as the thought of 'sharing' the sidewalk would never enter their minds because of the, "hey, nobody else matters, only I and what I want matter" upbringing that they received. We have young people riding around in their cars with their 'base systems' blaring and shaking the windows of houses at 2 and 3 o'clock in the morning, booming out the endearing lyrics of "yo momma's a whore, yo sister's a slut, get out my face, mf'er, kill the man, kill the man". Charming, eh? (and I can't afford to move because the house I purchased 11 years ago has accrued a 50% negative equity due to the Section 8 housing program that has taken over my once working class neighborhood over the past 6 years...but that's another rant for another time.) We have spawned a generation, to a large extent, that has no concept of common courtesy and manners, let alone self-sacrifice. This is not all-inclusive, of course. As in everything there are the exceptions. When I was growing up the balance was tipped in the other direction. Nan, I'd love that recipe! Sounds absolutely yummy! Mysteria gave me her recipe for artifically sweetened cranberry sauce, (thanks again, Sharon!) and I improvised and tried using Splenda during the cooking process since it doesn't lose its sweetness when heated and it turned out great! Yep, Santa is for all the children! Absolutely!  (ya might want to check with the PC group though, they may not like him either!)Sharon, my point exactly. We don't have to do away with the traditions of Christmas in an attempt to be inoffensive. Whoever wants to join in can join in. The more the merrier! Brad, I can see your point about the victim thing, as you have explained it above. My perception of the word had a bit more negative connotation (i.e., whiney, cry-baby, boo-hoo, woe is me). In the sense that you are using it, it seems to mean anyone who believes they are agrieved in some way? And you're right, I wasn't conciously using it as a rhetorical strategy. (I don't think or plan that deeply! I just speak my mind.) And I can also see your point about venting having its downside. But since it is part of communication, it is necessary, isn't it? We just have to make sure that we aren't throwing barbs for the sake of throwing barbs, that we actually listen to the other side and try to reach some understanding or compromise, if at all possible. We don't just suck up all our grievances, do we, and try to act like nothing is bothering us? That's definitely not healthy either. What to do, what to do? As you can see from my rant about my neighborhood, I definitely feel like a victim of the Federal and local government regarding their Section 8 housing program. I wonder if the people who create these programs, perhaps with the best of intentions for helping the less fortunate, realize how many other folks that they are economically destroying in the process? [This message has been edited by Denise (12-05-2002 09:45 PM).] |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
you know what burns my biscuits???? Huh??? YOu wan to know??? ( leaving them and or any idea in the oven to cook to long) There.... now you know... |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Denise, I agree and disagree with you. This, of course, is based on my secondary education about the 60's-70's timeframe. (my mom was a little too young to be thinking about me way back then. )I have to stop and wonder is 'the gradual decrease over time of moral absolutes in society in general' is (at least in theory) such a bad thing. For example, my mom is a single mom, and I lived with her as a child, visiting my father on weekends. Had I been born maybe twenty years before I was, this would have been much less acceptable. Social pressure might have pushed my mom into marrying my father (and that would have been a recipe for disaster, believe me), or, considering that my father wasn't interested in getting married, she might have felt compelled to have an abortion, so that she wouldn't be socially outcast, or even fired from he job. The 'the gradual decrease over time of moral absolutes in society in general' allowed room for my mother to raise me on her own as she saw fit, which in many cases deviated from the standards her parents set (marriage, Catholic upbringing, more of a 'tough love' stance...) I consider this a decidedly positive thing. Now, of course, you have people like that Yates woman who drowned her five children and blamed it on post-partum depression. Anyway you cut it, whether or not she was really suffering that severely from the depression, it deviates from the norm of a criminal did-you-or-didn't-you trial. I, personally, think the PC movement has a lot to do with the broadening of definitions for 'insanity' pleas. I have a problem with this, because I think it encompasses normal human behaviors that humans don't want to take responsibility for... but the point isn't whether I agree, it's that a marginalized group has a say in something that's going to happen to them. On the whole, I think this is a good thing. While I agree that things like simple manners and courtesy have become afterthoughts to the wanton credit-card consumption we Americans engage in, I have to comment on: 'We wouldn't want to teach our children to be mannerly and respect their elders,' I have a problem with giving a certain group preferential treatment for a reason like that. When I listen to my father go on a rant against arabic peoples/Muslims because he thinks they're all terrorists and we shouldn't let any in this country, I find it hard to respect him for his age when he holds a comparably less mature worldview than I do. (Based on my perceptions, I know...) It's like me, as a white person, being nice to a black person simply because back in the day, my European ancestors exploited their African ancestors. Now, I'll be nice to black people, and old people, and whoever else, based simply on the fact that they are people- but any respect beyond the basic human respect that everyone deserves is gained or lost based on how somebody acts, not on how I perceive them socially. That, in my opinion, is the morally fair option. 'because of the, "hey, nobody else matters, only I and what I want matter" upbringing that they received.' I thnk this often has more to do with commercialism ("Have you had your break today?") and culture than family upbringing. We are constantly plied with credit card junk mail, everyone has a cell phone, marketing is everywhere- now I'm all for capitalism, but America takes it to a terribly self-indulgent extreme based far more on image and profit than actual product quality. You can't avoid it, the best you can do is to remove yourself from it as much as possible. I also think it;s a maturity thing- as kids get older, they realize that mom and dad can't buy them 80$ jeans at the mall every 2 months- so they get their own job. And they spend all their money. But eventually, as college or adulthood come nearer, I think we tend to learn more about the value of a dollar, about what's important- there comes a maturity in investments. Unfortunately, some people never reach this. Now here's where things get interesting in your post: 'and I can't afford to move because the house I purchased 11 years ago has accrued a 50% negative equity due to the Section 8 housing program that has taken over my once working class neighborhood over the past 6 years...but that's another rant for another time.) We have spawned a generation, to a large extent, that has no concept of common courtesy and manners, let alone self-sacrifice.' Where is your sense of self-sacrifice in the Section 8 housing development case? I'm not saying that to be mean, but rather to point out that self-interest is crucial to our nature. Of course you're pissed that your house has gone down in value- I would be too! But the spirit of self-sacrifice is to give up comfort for yourself to give it to others. We all strive to meet standards we set for ourselves, and this, in itself, is self-interest, whether it be economic, moral, or otherwise. It's useless to criticize a culture for its selfishness, because that's an inherent part of the human makeup- rather, we should criticize whether the selfish activities really contribute to one's self-interest, and how people can serve themselves while serving others, instead of the constant implication that it has to be just one or the other. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ron, Now aren't you glad you got that off your chest?!  Hush, There are many positive changes that have taken place in society. Feeling free to keep a child that is born out of wedlock is one of those positive societal changes. It is unfortunate that society felt compelled to shame those, or were ashamed of, those who had made mistakes (as we all do). That speaks more to people’s reactions to a violation of a value held by society more than it does to the validity of the value itself. I see those undesirable reactions as a moral failing as well. It is possible to embrace a set of values, while at the same time not ostracizing and shaming individuals who have fallen short of the mark. I’m sure commercialism does play a role in current behavior. That doesn’t negate the upbringing aspect. It is still the parents’ responsibility to insure that their children are given every opportunity to develop into responsible adults. If that means eliminating as much of the corrupting influences of commercialism as possible from their daily lives, then that is what should be done. No parent gets to scapegoat a child’s behavior on commercialism, in my opinion. Maturity isn’t something that just happens. The groundwork that allows for maturity has to be laid by the parents. Showing respect to others does not mean that we necessarily have to like them or agree with them. Yes, we should show respect to all people, regardless of age, not because of age. I was just giving an example, referring to children, as one aspect of changes that I have seen over the years. I also see it in adults on a daily basis too. I think that respect is something that should be given regardless of whether a person is perceived to be deserving. This idea of 'qualified' respect, "I'll respect you, if you are worthy of it", is precisely one of those changes in attitude that I am referring to that is a by-product of a relativistic societal standard. I don't see self-interest and selfishness as synonymous. As you've stated, we all possess an inherent self-interest. It is natural and it is necessary for our survival in this world. I believe that one can possess a healthy self-interest, while maintaining a concern for others, whereas I see selfishness as a perversion of self-interest, lacking completely, or for the most part, in concern for others. As for my problem with the Section 8 program...I don't think that the government should arbitrarily decide for me (I never had a say in the matter) that I should sacrifice my desire to live in a safe and desirable neighborhood (self-interest) that doesn't infringe on my concept of a decent quality of life. This doesn't even come close to being a sacrificing of "comfort" issue. I'd like not to hear gunshots from down the street. Do you know, or can you imagine what it must be like to suddenly pull a three year old child to the floor, fearing that a bullet may come through the window? I'd like not to see roving gangs of delinquents disrespecting others’ property. I'd like not to see adult men standing on the corner drinking 'Forty's' and smoking pot. I'd like not finding empty drug bags and condoms lying in the street. Until recently there was a drug house 4 houses down (very close when you live in a row house...about 50 feet) where folks lined up at one of the front windows…money went in and drugs came out. The house that I bought in a working class neighborhood, that I mortgaged for 30 years, is now located in a ghetto due to the government’s mishandling of one of its programs. And guess what? I still have to pay the mortgage. They haven’t offered to compensate me for my losses (hey, I’d settle for a 40% recovery of my losses based on fair market value prior to the decline of the area due to their program, since that’s the average here that the federal and local governments pay on a monthly basis to house people who qualify for their program). That won’t happen. When there are no political connections, when there is no political clout, nothing in it beneficial to the politicians, chances are nothing will be done to change things. The losses incurred are all mine, to have and to hold. I don’t begrudge anyone a decent place to live and if it means being subsidized by the government, that’s fine. The program has just been severely mismanaged, inequitably distributed (some neighborhoods have no subsidized units, some blocks like mine are now 90% subsidized units), and completely lacking in any type of community follow-up programs. I don’t think my consternation speaks to a lack of a self-sacrificial spirit, as much as it speaks to a healthy self-interest. And true self-sacrifice has to be an individual choice, it isn’t something that can be foisted upon people by political action groups or by the government. That’s just coercion, in my view. [This message has been edited by Denise (12-06-2002 09:45 PM).] |
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Magicmystery Senior Member
since 2002-02-13
Posts 821Windsor, Ontario, Canada |
In Toronto the "politically Correct" (now that I know what PC stands for ...not progressive Conservative, the oxymoron that I have come to recognize that abreviation to mean with being Canadian and all.) THEY have decided to "not offend anyone" and rename the Christmas tree that stands in the middle of Nathan Phillips Square (city hall) the "Holiday Tree" EEEEESSSSHHHHH!!!!! For Five cents!!!! it's not like it's actually a nativity scene (not that I haven't seen my share of minorahs on display... Gee I wonder what they could be for... H H H a Lidays??? I have no objections to any religion celebrating its most holy days... I am amazed and inspired by the diversity. I am not offended by any of their displays. There was once a time that if you objected to the Prayers or the National anthem, you could opt out by removing yourself to the hall for that brief portion of openning exercises. no one looked down on you if you did.... and now.... in an effort to not offend, we have caved in to all the various groups that have decided that this country and its principles were worth making their own. HUH??? We, and our Neighbours to the south founded our countries on certain principles. We shouldn't be pushed into ammending our comprimising them by every whim and whiner who ...I couldn't envision being raised here.... not in my generation anyway.... I celebrate Christmas... I know the reason for the season. I don't demand that anyone who doesn't share my beliefs join me.... anymore than I think those of other beliefs and backgrounds would expect me to join them. I just think that every other religious group out there is making an attempt to legislate Christians into keeping their religious beliefs to themselves... after all.... we were instructed to go out and bring the "Gospel" to the four corners of the world. Is everyone so afraid that they might just hear something worth believing in? I do believe it would be so much easier for everyone if we (Christians) would all just crawl passively under a rock and let them all tug and pick apart the holidays that were originally set aside to celebrate Christian events(don't anyone start whining now) What DO you think "holiday" means..... Holy Day... Day separated.... set aside ... something special.... I couldn't give a rats ___(aheM) if my celebration offends some....it shouldn't... I am not sacrificing live animals... etc... or breaking any laws... yet... (only maybe those imposed by such pc paranoia)... and I think for the most part those who are offended, for one reason or another, have went out of their way to be offended. I think they should find better ways to waste their time than sucking the joy out of what should be such an incredibly special and magical time of year... no matter what the religion or lack of it may be. I pray that the Season finds you joyful, reflective and at peace with your neighbours All of them.  Sherry Cherish the good memories of the past and look forward to the adventure called Tomorrow. But above all... be kind to yourself today. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
My favorite version of The Christmas Carol is the musical version of Scrooge with Albert Finney playing Ol' Ebeneezer himself. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Yeah my biscuits are burnt too.... as a proud Roman Pagan I'm really peeved about how that darn Constantine took our revered holiday of Saturnalia and co-opted it into the Christian religion and called it Christmas... what's the world coming to? Just Kidding... Happy Holidays all... and Merry Christmas too... |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
You might be kidding, but you are correct. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well I was kidding about being a Roman Pagan... I'm agnostic about those gods too... lol |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
What to do? What to do? But, Denise, I think you've already answered that. Telling someone that they shouldn't be offended, as Magicmystery mentions, is the wrong way to go. It's an infinite regress because the original complaint is that you shouldn't offend them. Why not ask why Chistmas is offensive? It's not part of my religion. And what religion is Christmas a part of? All Christian religions. But that's not true. The Greek Orthodox Church doesn't celebrate it on the twenty-fifth. The argument will continue and continue, but at some point the general concept that we can respect others' beliefs and still have our own can come out. At that point, we can discuss the lack or recognition of other religious holidays. Would you support tax dollars to subsidize the festival at the last day of Ramadan in a Muslim community? Sure, why not? I think we can argue, contest, and discuss many PC issues by giving them recognition (That is, listening to what they say and trying to understand the reasoning behind it.) rather than recoiling with, "I don't care what they say." Unless the very idea that you should care isn't important to you. The trick here is not however bowing down to principle or accepting a principle, but in figuring out if it pays to discuss this. In a general sense, I don't think it's worth discussing the renaming of Chrismas (It's absurd). In a specific sense, a community sense, it may be however, if kids can't go see a Christmas Carol -- because one atheist has never read that book and is offended by the title or whatever -- then that means it's time to start talking. There's a difference between feeling victimized because you are are Christian and then venting about it to a predominantly Christian crowd and acting on Christian values such as compassion, care, and commitment. I don't know, why don't Christians put there time and effort into compromise and conversation rather than resentment and insulation. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, quote: This is an easy one! Nope! I'm not in support of tax dollars being used to subsidize any religious festival. In fact, I'm not in support of too much spending when it comes to tax dollars. I'd like to keep much more of it in my own paycheck! quote: You're right. My anger got the best of me in my original post, stating that "Christmas ain't going away, so deal with it." That was a brusque and unloving remark. I guess heavy-handed behind the scenes tactics is a major trigger to my temper, no matter the topic, that has to be dealt with. Thanks for helping me see that, Brad. quote: You're absolutely right, Brad. My focus should be on compassion, care, and commitment, and not on other's actions that may offend me. quote: I'm sure most do, or try to. I'm afraid that I haven't represented Christ very well with my poor attitude. I'm sorry, everyone.  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ah, Denise, am I the one being heavy handed now? I thought I was just elaborating on what you said. On the other hand, do I think I have the same responsibility, being a non-Christian, secularist, as that of Christians? You bet I do. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No, I didn't think you were being heavy-handed at all, Brad. Your statements just made me realize that my focus had come way off course due to my own anger at a perceived injustice. I suddenly saw myself as Peter swinging his sword, lopping off the ear of the centurion. And then I saw Christ (in the face of real injustice), healing the centurion, and then allowing himself to be arrested. Then I remembered I Corinthians 11, I think, the Love Chapter, "Love bears all things, hopes all things, believes all things...". I was behaving like Peter and not at all like Christ and I certainly wasn't bearing anything very well at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing something that's bothering you, but there's no excuse to do it angrily with an unloving attitude, which I did, because I didn't stop to chat with Him about it first. Upon further reflection I realized that Christ cares more about the love we express to others (even to genuine enemies, let alone to people that we don't happen to agree with politically or religiously) than about the name of a holiday (duh!). Geeze, He never even asked for a holiday to begin with! So in that light, I can't think of a bigger non-issue to have gotten all worked-up over, anyway. Thanks again for helping me see the issue in its proper perspective, Brad. I guess I'm just a slow learner. I wonder if there will ever come a time when I don't have to keep relearning all the same lessons over and over again? Knowing me, probably not! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
note to self -- readjust Denise's respect quotient up 72 percent. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks for helping me a feel a little less schmucky, LR. Happy Holidays, everyone! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
now if only we can get you to apologize for defending Andy Rooney... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
ROFL  Probably the best I can do about that is to tell you that I'll always love you best, Michael!  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That works for me!!  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
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majnu
since 2002-10-13
Posts 1088SF Bay Area |
My Parents went to school in India. There many students get break for 3 different new years, Christmas, Easter, Eid, The Major Sikh Holiday (sorry I do not know what it is called), and for 2 other Hindu holidays. Sure their breaks were shorter than here, but that is not the point. The point is that rather than stop celebrating things they celebrate everything! Even here our Sikh friends and Hindu friends call to wish us on Eid, and we call to wish them on Diwali and other Holidays. Its these dumb buggers who need to be shut down. -majnu -------------------------------------- Timid thoughts be not afraid. I am a Poet. [This message has been edited by majnu (12-12-2002 08:44 PM).] |
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