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Out on a limb...
| The Alley |
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Out on a limb... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738
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Okay, okay, I know everyone means well. But once again, I find myself scratching my head, at replies of encouragement, that urge me to seek "HIM." Perhaps it's a quibble, but I think my beliefs and religious inclinations are well-known enough, that such reminders are actually becoming, in my perception, the "back-handed" solicitation. Sigh...and I do know that there are others, that have found this to be slightly annoying to say the least. I don't think of this as being hyper-sensitive. I do not mind the good wishes and prayers from any perspective of good intent--be it Allah, Buddha, or Goddess or Christ. But the persistance of some is starting to work my nerves. Do you know how many Christmas cards I got reminding me to "keep Christ in my Christmas?" as if I couldn't find the root word there? Did I remind anyone to keep fire in their solstice? Grumbling a bit...sorry...(serentiy exits, muttering to herself) |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
(Allan enters, an inquisitive finger raised, and hands Serenity a ginger snap and a glass of milk) Hey, I know where you're coming from, babe... and I know how difficult it is to have to be subject to such demeaning treatment. I'm sick and tired of people comforting me with things that they know are not my beliefs, but still rub into me constantly. And you're right, it even occurs right here in Passions in Poetry. I remember one reply I recieved didn't mention much about my poem, rather it congratulated me on being a good Christian (funny, isn't it? The first Atheist to be a good Christian). You know, Serenity... I can't offer you much in the way of advice. I have kind of an "insensitive" coping philosophy: Be amused, not annoyed. It doesn't just work for these instances of Christians constantly reminding us that Big ol' JC is pulling for us... it actually works for any situation that would otherwise make you feel uncomfortable. Although I agree that you shouldn't have to tolerate such comments if they are unwelcome... the most that you can do is make it well-known that such comments are unwelcome to begin with (which you're doing here! nice work). And to everyone else reading this... please think before you try and give someone divine guidance. It's not always appreciated by the "unsaved" parties... Thanks for bringing it up, Serenity. Something I feel quite strongly about. Don't think you're alone. ~Allan [This message has been edited by Allan Riverwood (02-19-2002 01:56 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you Allan, I love gingersnaps and milk.  and yes, I agree with your philosophy, normally. It just got to be a bit maddening. I feel better now. So...blessed be!  |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
it amazes me how people can continue to try to push their beliefs on others when it is so clear to me that by doing so, they push others farther and farther away from even taking a look at various religions with an open mind. if people really want other people to consider their faith as truth and explore it since they truly believe it holds answers and solace, then the best advertisement they have is their own lives. i frankly find it very disconcerting to be told by anyone that the way they believe offers the only true answers to life's struggles and journey ....and believe me, Christians are not the only group who profess this... this type of rhetoric is prevelant in many groups, from eastern religions such as Buddhism to western religions such as Mormonism and 7-Day Adventists. If people really want others to listen to the tenets of their faith, the best way to go about it is to simply live their lives in their own communities and among their own family members and friends, showing that their lives reflect the value of their faith, both in their character and the way they handle struggles in their lives and deal with other people. When people preach to others, trying to convert or convince them to believe the way they do, ESPECIALLY if their lives reflect less than positively back on their faith, it is like watching a poorly produced ad on TV for a product you're not interested in.... the louder it gets, the more likely you are to turn the channel. ------------> thanks, serene-one... i needed to vent today.... later, i'll be back to write a little gripe on an entirely different subject about my take on fakes, phoneys, frauds, pathologocial liars, and manipulators if i ever can uncross my eyes (i bolded that because i didn't want anyone to think i was referring to this same topic about religious tenets... text is so much fun.. i need to be clear because this is the internet and text is all we have and i'm rambling again) ..... lol... a little plug...go ahead, change the station.. oh and btw, you may not know this but my faith is Christian, but i'm certainly not going to push it on you or anybody else but i would also like to encourage you to be just like me and be open minded to discover the value in all spiritual quests and faiths because i gaurantee you, you won't be sorry...!!! rofl.. hehe... geesh... but anyway, you don't have to if you don't want to ... rofl.. and you don't have to read my upcoming rant, either, because i trust you will make the right decision on your own to read it or not and i may not even write it after all, because maybe i just did! peace, love, happiness, and the continued freedom to speak your mind adios! [This message has been edited by doreen peri (02-19-2002 03:06 PM).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Once upon a time, not too long ago, I was very active in a Christian Church. VERY active. I don't do things half way, I'm either IN or I'm out. So I typed the Sunday bulletins, taught the 5 year old Sunday School Class (loved that!), organized and served the monthly Senior member dinner, taught the Woman's Missionary Union and worked with the teen girls... And then one day, the church deacons decided to fire the minister. Without telling anyone or getting any input. Well, that may have been their right, I don't know. But the result was the most vicious backbiting, unChristian like behavior I have ever seen. I live my life in the way I think God would approve....I do no harm, I care about my fellow man and I try to understand and be compassionate of others trangressions. We all live our lives differently and as long as no one is hurt, there is no harm in that. Preach to me if you want, but don't be offended if I don't reply. Actions speak louder than words. And Doreen? I await with bated breath the next rant!!!  (can we have it NOW?) |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
quote: KA? ... you are the fire in my solstice "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I would like to clarify something here, because I have volunteered for a rotation in the spiritual forum. I do not mind, in fact I LOVE conversation and discussion about the differences and similarities of various religions. But lately there seems to be a prevalent tone of scriptural quoting in replies in Open forum--and I think that some should be gently reminded that this forum is located on a WORLD WIDE WEB. Please stick to the poetry at hand. I might also remind all that our poets often write with allusion to mythical gods, which does not always denote an author's leaning toward Paganism or Pantheism. Save discussion of these potentially sensitive topics for discussion forums, or as I do when I have a question, ask via e mail. sigh...Love and peace to you all. |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
sharon.... i might write it into a poem... dunno yet serenity - i applaud you!! that was soooo well said!! |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
i'm a heathen, a admit it. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
or maybe satan... been called that too... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thanks all, and Chris? A HEATHEN? yer lucky yer cute! |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
also, i think... some people push because outside acceptance equals affirmation. many are not satisfied with their own answer - ther require the confirmation from others. (these are the ones that really bother me - those who truly believe [my aunt] don't bother me as much for some reason) |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Chris? and Satan too, no less...grinning |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
hey...I LIKE that, C...this is what I'm talking about, I love exchange of ideas, but resent a "push" of biblical quote, (and their chosen interpretation no less) hmmm... grin...we should talk! |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
hey christopher!! lemme see your pitch fork!!! |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
aww damn, i don't believe it, that's what i'm trying to say! If Christopher's Satan, then I'm Eve in Disguise! but anyway... carry on... sorry to interrupt.. i was just here and saw all the stuff you guys wrote conversing with each other and thought i'd participate in some way but if i said anything wrong... Please PLEASE do not damn me ... aww hell, i'm just me again, carry on... i went out on a limb, maybe ... *grin |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
one more thing, btw... that comment about "affirmation", christopher, was quite brilliant |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
i agree, serenity, it is annoying. i had a summer job once with a girl who was absolutely one of the nicest people i have ever known in my life, and i really liked her, but i finally had to stop hanging out with her; she was born again, and hardly a day would go by without her trying to save me. i agree with doreen; she would have been more successful, i think, if she had simply tried to lead by example. (i, meanwhile, remain a hopeless spiritual mess in the "undecided" category.) but she did help me understand something important. she utterly believed in the "good news" of jesus christ as her personal savior, and it genuinely upset her, bothered her, that others whom she cared for -- me among them -- had not undergone the same spiritual transformation. but why get in my face about it? i said to her once. just let me be, i'll take care of things my own way, in my own time. because, she said, it was like watching someone about to walk blindfolded off the edge of a cliff; she didn't feel like she could simply stand by and not say anything, content in the knowledge (or belief) that SHE wasn't going to walk off the same cliff. she honestly felt like she had to do or say something, the dangers, to her, were very real. if you think about it from that angle, her persistent efforts were actually pretty nice. it's just one of life's little ironies that they also happened to be pretty annoying, lol. oh well. jenni |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"but why get in my face about it?" That pretty much sums it up for me. Thanks. And... "but i finally had to stop hanging out with her; she was born again," I was born okay the first time. [This message has been edited by serenity (02-20-2002 04:44 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Christopher? "also, i think... some people push because outside acceptance equals affirmation" I keep this quote close to my heart. I have missed you, lovie! |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
I find it very hard to reply to poems about God or religion, because I'm a 'not-believer'. Still I can recognize a wellwritten poem if I see one, so if I say 'it's a good poem', that doesn't mean that I have the same feelings about the subject. Does that make any sense??? I don't mind if I get responses as "God bless you" or something like that, because I know the writer is, as a believer, entitled to write that, it's what they truly believe. However, when they're trying to convince me that my way of living/believing is wrong and that their's is the only right one, well they loose me on the spot, for I won't accept that attitude. That has nothing to do with being 'worried', or 'concerned', that has everything to do with power. Those people are determined in trying to change you into thinking exactly as they are. Their desire is: to have control. I have a colleague who is the most strict believer I've ever met (no tv and such), but he is the most adorable colleague I have, simply because he is who he is and he lets me be who I am. Every year I design the windowposter for his Christmaschoir(?)(singers) performance and we discuss what should be on it, but never ever he has urged me to come and listen, because he knows I'm a not-believer. If he should do that, I wouldn't be able to do the designing anymore. Ah, well, I've spent my two pennies here. Live and let live is what I believe in. Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
My first instinct was to say that we, those of us who aren't Christian, just have to put with it. A kinder, gentler Allan R.'s point if you will. But I get annoyed and uncomfortable with this stuff just like everybody else. In the most general sense, it's not the conversation and comments themselves which are perfectly legitimate, it's the sense that they're not appropriate at all times and all places: they're sneaking in a particular agenda when we're not looking. Doesn't it seem, sometimes, that certain overzealous Christians have ulterior motives for everything they do? Jenni points out that her friend really does care about her, but in a very real sense is that how it sounds or does it sound like she's not really seeing you, not recognizing you as a person. You become a thing to be molded, melded, and metamorphized into something else. You become a project. Believe it or not, that's okay (we all do it sometimes; we all believe in somethings that we want other people to believe.). I don't mind being manipulated (I read poetry to be manipulated) but if you're going to manipulate me, you can probably do a better job than creating the feelings mentioned above. It's just poor tactics. Brad |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Brad, I think you hit on some personal insight for me, so I must thank you. I abhor becoming anyone's "project"--a different thing from mentorship, too, I think you will agree. It's both demoralizing and de-humanizing. Well, that is how it makes me feel anyway... And also, I too had the attitude of "put up with it"...until now, and for all of the reasons you said! |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
A project huh? Let me play the devil's advocate here (no pun intended) for a moment folks. Say you're a Christian...let's all think like Christians right now..(ardent ones) and this isn't a judgement - this is about inserting the foot into the shoe. Let's say I'm a Christian: I go to church (oh and I have done this too, the whole church thing, long ago). I go to fellowship meetings. I learn about Jesus. I learn about salvation. I learn about how 'the only way to the Father is through me (Jesus).' I learn I am a saint and a disciple. I learn that my MISSION is to help people see the light of God. I learn about evangelicalising. I learn that if I do NOT encourage people about God, then I am weak. I learn that if I stay quiet, in the face of such opinions as the above, then I am weak. I am not a good Christian. I am a house built on sand. True Christians REACH OUT to people - regardless of how those people feel at the time, because reaching out is 'planting seeds' to bring people to God. God does the work, not me. GOD speaks to the people, not me - I am but a messenger... I do not see people as projects..I see them as lost souls who are missing out on the true meaning of life. It is rational for Christians to plague other's with their beliefs because that is the whole point of being one! I don't believe that those wholly endorsing Christian beliefs (or any others for that matter) see people as projects - in fact, I find that idea diminishing to the idea of people's faith. In my opinion it might make it a little easier to bear if we could just UNDERSTAND where these people are coming from, and find ways to gracefully walk away, or ignore it. Everyone has their own rational system, right or wrong to our own way of thinking. In fact K, I don't even think it's done out of a desire of 'meaning well' much of the time..it's done because it's NECESSARY for the plantation! jenni makes that point with her story of her friend. It HURTS these people to watch the unsaved - although of course it isn't wholly altruistic...being humans, that's impossible. As for the affirmation theory C...I agree (gag) that many do it to be accepted, to follow the lead...but that fact remains, no matter their motivation people are still bible bashing with unsaved souls in their mind...the needy ones just think of themselves a little bit more in the process.... But it is something unavoidable for Christians, because it's inserted into their thinking processes. We will have to continue to put up with it. And accept it philosophically I think.  K[This message has been edited by Severn (02-21-2002 07:18 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I can tear this a part, you know. Nevertheless, I agree with much. If that is what you feel is necessary (not you personally), then do it. But learn how to do it well!!!!! I don't mean to diminish the belief, I mean to diminish the technique. Brad |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Of course you can tear it apart. So why don't you? Technique? They don't NEED technique - it's up to God to fertilise the seeds remember...so who CARES how the message is going to be delivered if God has it all under control in the end. Honestly - Christians (well the one's I've met anyway) don't seem to care about HOW just that they DO get the message across. It's like...sigh...they are infused with a belief that God can conquer even the hardest non-believer, so who gives a damn how it's said as long as the message is given. Why should they care, if in their rationale, the message and not the delivery is the most important? K [This message has been edited by Severn (02-21-2002 07:27 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
"Honestly - Christians (well the one's I've met anyway) don't seem to care about HOW just that they DO get the message across." --Of course they don't. But if they want to talk to those who don't believe, shouldn't it matter? --It's not that they're wrong, it's that they don't care about what the people who they're trying to convert actually think. I believe Christians, if they believe what they believe, try to do things that do nothing but hurt their (Christian)religion. ==Albeit, it does work sometimes. --They don't look at the person, they look at themselves and assume that what worked for them will work for me or for someone else. --And that is a mistake. --Why not look at what I say? --Why not tear me apart? Brad |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
"Honestly - Christians (well the one's I've met anyway) don't seem to care about HOW just that they DO get the message across." --Of course they don't. But if they want to talk to those who don't believe, shouldn't it matter? ***Perhaps it should, but tell that to the Christians who are indoctrinated about the message, and only the message. The other day I walked down the street, through crowds of people, and walked past a man in an impeccable suit, crying out 'it's meant to be Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve! There's too much of this going on...ra ra ra' and on and on. How many people do you think heard the man, or just laughed at his spectacle? He didn't care - he was doing God's work, assured of a place in heaven. Laying seeds in the souls of the needy, trusting God to reach through the hardened shells... --It's not that they're wrong, it's that they don't care about what the people who they're trying to convert actually think. I believe Christians, if they believe what they believe, try to do things that do nothing but hurt their (Christian)religion. ** You're wrong - they do care what the people think. They just want them to think another way - that's still caring about their thinking. If they are hurting their religion, it certainly has nothing to do with viewing people as projects...rather...a naive trust in the powers of God to fertilise the seeds...nevermind the psyche of the individual at hand, and the way in which their religion is perceived as a consequence. Those things are incidental...and also, Christians are taught that they've already won they great battle...small losses are nothing compared to the glory of the second coming. Nevermind the image NOW, it's what to come that matters. ==Albeit, it does work sometimes. --They don't look at the person, they look at themselves and assume that what worked for them will work for me or for someone else. ** Of course - we're all God's children to them. All capable of the same salvation. 'There is no jew, no gentile, no slave or free, no man or woman - we are all one in Christ Jesus' - well that's how I remember it. --And that is a mistake. ** but not to them, hence their inability to deliver the technique. K |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
"He didn't care - he was doing God's work, assured of a place in heaven. Laying seeds in the souls of the needy, trusting God to reach through the hardened shells..." Interesting point: So as long as you talk, it doesn't matter what happens? Is that what Christians think? You make some very good points, and Interloper, for example, has said much the same thing. If that's Christianity (not Christ), maybe I give it more respect than it deserves. I'm thinking, Brad |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
I agree that Christians work to convert people because it is their holy mission, and not because they genuinely care about others. I mean, it must be hard to express genuine concern for someone who your God wishes to torture eternally. That already creates a bias with which Christians looks down upon the unsaved... imagine worshipping a creature who has a list of people that he will torture in Hell for eternity. And you still worship this creature? If you do, then you must not be nuts about these people... Although maybe some Christians don't like to think of that very much. It's about "love," after all. The point is, they try to convert people because they are "doing a good thing" in the eyes of their God. Everything is imperfect except God, and all evil comes from humans. God can do only good things. (which is funny, considering he made humanity when he was bored one day) I don't consider anyone who believes that my creed makes me deserving of hell to actually care about me. [This message has been edited by Allan Riverwood (02-21-2002 08:58 AM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Most of what has been said here can be applied to just about ANY human pursuit. Teaching immediately comes to mind as a case where most practitioners are their own worst enemy. For too many kids, the only thing they ever learn in school is to hate learning. Does that make teaching wrong? Or is it, rather, a condemnation of Sturgeon's infamous ninety percent? I doubt it matters which field you examine, it's always easy enough to find fault with those who do it wrong. Perhaps more could be learned, however, from those who do it correctly? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Anything? There are some things we all agree on. No, I'm not changing my position, but don't play around here. Explain, why you're a Christian or don't bother contributing. Admittedly, you don't have to. But don't use your strength here. C'mon, Ron, you can do better than that. Enough, Brad |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I can't even count the number of times a 'well intentioned' person who saw me as 'lost' tried to convert my way of thinking, or who have bashed on what I believe, or have tried to get a reaction from me by denouncing my personal faith as a sham...or worse. And since friendships derive from mutual respect, I can't say I still consort with them. Just because I forgive, doesn't mean I have to like. BTW, I'm a Christian, one of the quiet ones with the rarest of spiritual gifts: the gift of works. And the ones who persecuted my personal faith (and me in the process) were a medley: Atheist, Agnostic, Pantheist, Wiccan, Pagan, and one egomaniac who created his own religion as he went along. And lets not leave out fellow Christians...one only needs to look at the history of Christianity, from 1000 AD to Present, to see how poorly people of the same basic faith can treat each other. I'm an odd one though, I know...I don't get offended when someone tells me Blessed Be, Merry Yule, Happy Beltain, Amen, Pax Christu, or any other religious acknowledgement/slogan. I know what they're trying to say, and leave it at that. I also know there are some who will read the above and come to the conclusion that I can't be a Christian, or a 'True' Christian, since I don't fit the mold. And that's OK. Judging others has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with being people...it's called choice. Well, I think I've rambled enough Pax Poeticus  “It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most |
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Interloper
since 2000-11-06
Posts 8369Deep in the heart |
Brad ~ You KNEW I'd have to jump in here I don't know if you invoked my name or if it is being used in a pejortive manner You said"--It's not that they're wrong, it's that they don't care about what the people who they're trying to convert actually think. I believe Christians, if they believe what they believe, try to do things that do nothing but hurt their (Christian)religion." You know, I don't actively proselytize. I don't feel comfortable with that and neither do many thousands of Christians. However, if I were to be drawn into such a discussion, the single most important thing to me would be what the other person thinks. Otherwise, how could I intelligently interact with that person? So, how could that hurt my "Christian religion?" You also said"--They don't look at the person, they look at themselves and assume that what worked for them will work for me or for someone else." I am disappointed in such a statement from you. Such a generally presumptive statement is beneath your intellect. I am certainly the exception to that assumption. Each person is unique and their motivation, or lack thereof, is uniquely generated. What worked for me probably wouldn't work for many other people I have met. I have found that it is far better to "walk the walk" and let others observe. Does that mean I don't make mistakes; HUGE mistakes? NO! I do, however, try very hard to live up to my beliefs and set a good example(my temper is my biggest challenge). [This message has been edited by Interloper (02-21-2002 04:54 PM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Brad, your last post confuses me. YOU haven't explained why you're a Christian, and one might even guess that not everyone in this thread IS a Christian. Besides, since when should that be a criteria for contributing to a discussion? Don't use your strength here? I'm unclear (again) what that means, but my immediate reaction would be, "Why not?" If you wanted to discuss writers instead of evangelists, I suspect we would end up talking mostly about the good ones. Not the ninety percent (at least!) who get it all wrong. I'm not suggesting we can't learn from bad writers, because we can. I AM saying that bad writers shouldn't be representative of the craft. Human endeavors are defined not by the majority, but by the accomplished. What can we learn from the ones doing it poorly? Proselytizing isn't limited to religion, but is a facet of human nature, and exists largely because most of us unconsciously assign our own expectations and assumptions to others. I want to be healthy and live a long life, so I figure you do, too. That's an assumption. If I believe that red meat leads to an unhealthy life, I might just try to point that out to you. Especially if I believe it strongly. Especially if I care what happens to you. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, nor do I think it would do me much good to try to change it. It's far too deeply ingrained in who and what we are. HOW I go about pointing it out to you, however, is another matter entirely. If Joe in the next cubicle eats lunch with you every day and harps every time you order a burger, that's probably going to get pretty irritating. If Joe swings by at the end of the day to tell you how good he still feels after that big plate of soy salad, it's probably going to get pretty irritating. If Joe buys you a pork chop for your next birthday, that's likely going to be about the last straw. But does Joe represent the entire health industry? If you actually wanted to find out more about the effects of red beef on the human digestive system, do you think you'd ask Joe about it? There is still no conclusive evidence, and you are NOT going to find an unbiased source, but I nonetheless suspect you would look to a doctor, a nutritionist, an athlete you respect, or just about anybody EXCEPT Joe. Let's reverse the situation a minute. If you believed red beef was dangerous, would you feed it to your kids? If you believed marijuana too often led to drug exploration, would you introduce it to your little brother? If you believed vitamin C and beta-carotene could prolong useful life, would you give your mom a bottle of vitamins on her sixtieth birthday? If you believed reading could extend personal horizons, would you make sure your children saw you with a book occasionally or would you sit in front of the television all night? Now, why would you do any less for a friend? Or even a stranger? EVERY SINGLE TIME we try to help another human being, that help is predicated on our assumptions and our beliefs in what is good or bad. I would certainly agree that we should more closely examine our beliefs before we hoist them on others, but I doubt that's really the big problem. The big problem, I think, is that almost no one ever examines their assumptions. You cannot assume that because you want to lead a long and boring live, everyone else does, too. You cannot assume that because you want to learn more sophisticated writing techniques, everyone else does, too (or that they should want to, which is just a different kind of assumption). Unless someone has explicitly asked for your help, the chances are somewhere between excellent to damned sure that your assumptions about what they want are NOT going to valid. (You're probably wrong even if they do ask, but at least the odds aren't quite so badly skewed against you.) In the short term, your ability to spread your beliefs can be based on several things, including social power (parents and kids, as one example) and even - once in a great while - merit. In the long term, however, your success is going to depend on correctly accessing motivations. Those who are unable to do this reasonably well are just going to irritate the dickens out of us. They are going to harp and harp on things we don't care about, little realizing they should instead be finding out what we DO care about. I don't think that necessarily means their beliefs are wrong. Maybe red meat really does clog arteries and other less mentionable orifices. But I don't want to hear about that while I'm eating a nice rare steak. It really doesn't matter whether Joe is preaching to you about red meat, about monogamous relationships, about using the word "soul" in a poem, or about Christianity. If he does it poorly, with no reference to your own agenda, it's going to be irritating. That almost goes without saying. The real question, I submit, is whether your reaction would be different if it was done correctly. Put another way, would you have the same beef with Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I humbly submit my belief, that spiritual enlightenment, is only "done correctly" alone. But granted, Ron, if Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King had something to say to me today, I would listen, MOST respectfully, considering that they are deceased, and should have a bit more information than I.  But I did not miss the point--and yes, before I listen to someone regarding anything, I do look at the entire situation, including whether their own advice has worked for THEM-- I started out here, just venting, but as always I ended up thinking. As I stated earlier, normally these things don't bother me...as Ron pointed out, it was the persistance of it all that "got my goat" (no wiccan pun intended )I would like to re-iterate that I am always open to conversation. And I am enjoying this one, as well. Thanks. |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
Ron? I've been watching and reading this thread when I can. I haven't had time to contribute very much to anything here at Passions lately... but may I just say that your reply was awesome, and although I don't agree with all of it, I agree or at least see your points more clearly on MOST of it? I'll keep reading. This is getting interesting. and I had to come in and reply so I could add it to my library. Did I ever say that I LOVE observing people and their behavior? I do...so..lol..everyone..I'm watching you.  For all who watch.Dare you say hello? Come in and ask the questions that are on your mind, but spare me your judgement until you truly sipped of me. [This message has been edited by Temptress (02-21-2002 08:45 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Interloper, Certainly not intended as pejorative. I was, however, referring to two comments you said rather close together that while taken separately were quite reasonable, taken together seemed contradictory. You quoted the duty of Christians to spread the gospel but then asked why you should worry about converting me. I liked everything you said here but still don't understand your obsession with intellect and intelligence. Ron, I thought you were dodging the whole point. If the goal of a Christian is to convert, isn't it their duty to worry about how they do it in order to be effective? The argument, as I understand it, is "no, as long as they speak, the results aren't important." This is a concern with self, not the people you preach to. And that seems to go against the whole point of preaching in the first place. In writing, teaching, [preaching] veganism, or whatever, if you're goal is to get other people to like it, to change someone, then it matters how you do it (you concede this), but you seem to assume that some people can (the most accomplished) and some people can't. Fair enough, but the argument, however, is that those who can't don't have to try. As long as a teacher teaches, it doesn't matter what happens to the students. As long as a writer writes, it doesn't matter if anybody reads it. As long as I tell you red meat is bad, it doesn't matter if people die. True, if your goal is simply to write for yourself, to teach for yourself, to tell other people what to do, this is correct. But in all these cases, it's almost always the case that the very reason for doing it is dependent on the reaction of others. And that means you can fail. But does that mean you shouldn't try to succeed? More later, Brad |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I wasn't trying to dodge the point, Brad, so much as I was trying to be brief. Not a lot of time these days. But, of course, brevity has never been my greatest strength, and now you can perhaps understand why I so seldom try it. quote: Yea, I think it means exactly that. Bad doctors shouldn't kill people, bad teachers should ruin kids for the rest of their lives, and bad evangelists shouldn't preach to anyone except other bad evangelists. It is a very common misconception that all Christians are spiritually required to spread the Gospel. Ali alluded to that, I think, when he mentioned the gift of works. Yes, some Christians are called to be evangelists. But not all. And, in my opinion, not even very many. (1 Cor. 12: 27-31) Do you happen to know what the criteria is for being a prophet? Or, put another way, how does the Bible tell us to distinguish between God's prophets and false ones? The criteria is actually pretty simple. A prophet of God is NEVER wrong. Catch a prophet in even one mistake, one small lie, and you've stripped them of their divine origins. Now, I'm not sure the standards are quite that high for evangelists - but I think they should be. If preaching turns people away from God, then you have not a false prophet, but a false evangelist. Being a Christian, good or otherwise, doesn't automatically make someone an infallible prophet. I can't, for the life of me, understand why so many people think it should make them a good evangelist. Except, of course, it's human nature to preach. About religion, about red meat, or about how cute their grandchildren are. Twenty years ago, I often made the horrible mistake of correcting them. Sorry, but some of those little kids really DID have big ears! I might have scared a few old ladies, but I don't think I ever convinced anyone they were wrong. I guess I still regress from time to time, but mostly I just smile vacantly and keep walking my own path. After all, we can't really hope to change human nature, can we? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
One of these days, I'm going to have to figure out why this one is getting me going so much. Perhaps, I still have a certain residual Christianity popping up in this head of mine. Ron said: "The real question, I submit, is whether your reaction would be different if it was done correctly." --But that question makes no sense to me. "Correctly" is defined by the result, not some perfect form that's out there. When I said 'explain why you're a Christian', I meant don't step back and generalize the whole thing as human nature or whatever, but give me something more interesting than the usual guy who knocks on my door with glazed over eyes and a certain overzealous smile. Get in the argument as a Christian (which you have said you were -- did I misunderstand this?). When you generalize as you did, you end up privileging Christianity because teachers, writers, and vegans do not, on the same level, do the same actions that Alicat describes. --And if they did, we would generally see them as, well, strange. Wouldn't we? --I think we should see certain Christian actions just as strangely. "Put another way, would you have the same beef with Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King?" --Ah, the ultimate ad. hom. argument (Are you sure you were that puzzled by my earlier post? ). I can't say that ad. hom.'s are always wrong since they seem absolutely necessary to make judgements on who or what to listen or read to and deciding on reputation is a good bet.--But relying completely on it, again, defeats the whole purpose of reading or listening in the first place. Can I find something to disagree with in Martin Luther King's writing and life? In Mother Theresa's? --Of course. --It seems fairly clear that King was no saint and Mother Theresa (who'll probably become a saint) used funds to start Catholic Churches, funds that were intended to help the poor in India. According to Christopher Hitchins, anyway, Mother Theresa is guilty of fraud and hypocrisy. --Does this take away from the good things that they did? --No, and the only reason anyone would think that it did would be to think of them as gods. --I don't believe in gods. Brad PS I hope it goes without saying that I am not talking about Christians as a whole, just the type who told my friend once that he was going to hell because he was Jewish. We were in a subway, he came up to us, a cross in his hands, and proceeded to ask us our religion. We didn't ask him. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: It may surprise you, Karen, but I essentially agree with that statement. But only "essentially" because I think there are a few over-simplifications hidden between the words. The first centers around the word enlightenment. Certainly, I don't believe that anyone can "know" God through the efforts of another. I can write hundreds of thousands of words about my sister, and you may learn a great deal about her through my eyes, but you won't really know her until you meet her. Close-up. Personal. Long term. On the other hand, if you're cruising around Michigan looking for her, I just might be able to point out you're in the wrong bloody state. Enlightenment, in that sense, can be helpful. Personally, I think if you really wanted to meet my sister, you'd find your way to California even without my enlightenment. All I really did was save you some time. But that can be good, too. More importantly, though, I question whether any of us are ever really alone? Brad, I didn't cite Mother Theresa and King as authorities, but as examples. Because I strongly disagree that "correctly" is defined entirely by result. That theory leads to compulsive gamblers and others who keep doing the same thing over and over just because it worked for them in the past. It's how most parents raise their children, repeating the mistakes of their own parents because "I didn't turn out so badly." It's why dogs salivate at the sound of a bell. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. If you don't analyze WHY something works (or doesn't work), you've turned a key and disabled the mind. Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King are examples of the right way to evangelize because, no matter what else you can say about them, they cared about individuals. Notice I didn't say they cared about people? Most of our Members, and I suspect most writers in general, care about people. Caring about people is actually pretty easy. If nothing else, your conviction will probably never be put to the test. Caring about individual is very, very different. Much harder. And, sadly, exceedingly rare. I am not suggesting that the Sister or the Reverend could have necessarily changed your own personal convictions. Their RESULTS may have been no different than the jerk on the subway. But I do believe, had you met one of them, had you listened to one of them, you would not have been in the least bit irritated by what they had to say to you. Even in disagreement, you would have sensed and I think respected their motivations. Finally (for this morning), when I generalize religion and compare it to teaching, writing, or nutrition, I do so very deliberately and for what I believe is a good reason. Christianity is not about Christ. It's about people. It's just another human endeavor, another human invention, and I want to emphasize with my generalities that it encompasses ALL of the failures of history. It really is no different than teaching, writing, or scientific discoveries. People make mistakes. People do dumb things. The faults lie not in the foundation, but in the walls humanity has erected upon the foundation. Want to hear an interesting dichotomy? I think the most common mistake people make is inadvertently humanizing God. The second most common, and what I alluded to above, is that people tend to deify the Church. Both, I think, lead to terrible confusions. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Hmmm...I guess it just boils down to a definition of "enlightenment?" If this is argument, isn't our personal definitions what this is about? I know that I over-simplify. It's a necessity in my case. I like the analogy of your sister. But hopefully, if I were to meet your sister, close-up, personal and for the long term, I would no longer think of her as YOUR sister, but as MY friend! And I totally agree with you Ron! In fact, you made me very happy today! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks, Ron. I thought you were moving in a very different direction. I was wrong. Perhaps I should have had a little more faith? I still disagree on a number of points but I'll save those for other threads. I really like the people versus individual distinction, I think it captures what Elison was getting at in 'Invisible Man'. |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
Very sorry I came so late upon this discussion! Very interesting. The biggest flaw of Christians is they forget their humanity and that God gave all humanity the freedom of choice. Which only proves how so many Christians make bad choices. And if a sincere Christian who thinks he understands the gospel can make such bad choices he should assume that everyone is capable of bad choices. I'm just a servant and can't do the Master's work for Him. It isn't my job. And finally, nobody has a monopoly on God. |
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Interloper
since 2000-11-06
Posts 8369Deep in the heart |
Brad, You said "I liked everything you said here but still don't understand your obsession with intellect and intelligence." I'm usually suspicious of a compliment followed by a "but" which cancels the preceding words I doubt seriously that I have an obsession with anything. You also said "One of these days, I'm going to have to figure out why this one is getting me going so much. Perhaps, I still have a certain residual Christianity popping up in this head of mine "Could that be a "small, still voice" deep inside Serenity, You said "Hmmm...I guess it just boils down to a definition of "enlightenment?" If this is argument, isn't our personal definitions what this is about? I know that I over-simplify. It's a necessity in my case." I have a slight problem with your "enlightenment" and "personal definitions." To start with the second term, there are no "personal" definitions. You cannot redefine a truth. You cannot call it "your" truth. There is only truth and untruth. You can call a car a spade, if you wish, that does not make it a spade or anything other than a car. With respect to "enlightenment," I, like Brad, like to use the dictionary: "enlighten. v 1: make understand; "Can you enlighten me--I don't understand this proposal" [syn: edify] 2: give spiritual insight to; in religion [syn: irradiate] 3: make free from confusion or ambiguity; make clear: "Could you clarify these remarks?"; "Clear up the question of who is at fault" [syn: clarify, clear, clear up, shed light on, crystallize, straighten out, sort out, illuminate, elucidate]" Which, specifically, do you mean? Larry, Wow! What a statement! How all encompassing! Just how do Christians forget their humanity? I believe Christians remember their humanity maybe more than others ... after all we believe we were saved by God becoming human and dying for our sins. We know we sin and we have a freedom of choice and that we, like all humans, made and make bad choices (sin). We understand that. Yes, we do. The difference is we can ask for, and receive, forgiveness for our bad choices. Quote ______________________________________________________________________ I'm just a servant and can't do the Master's work for Him. It isn't my job. _______________________________________________________________________ Is that your statrement or what you believe a Christian might say? I, for one, believe I am a servant of God and I will do whatever work He leads me to perform. It is my job to do as he has told me to do and I will do it to the very best of my ability. Finally, I agree that nobody has a monopoly on God. Everybody has the ability to speak to Him, follow his Word, reject Him, or reject His Word all of which is a part of the free choice we all have. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Interloper, why can't I have all of the above? You say there is simply truth and untruth. My perception of what you perceive to be the truth may (and probably does) differ. Using Ron's analogy again, his sister is (I am presuming) one person, known to others in many different faculties. She is somebody's sister. She is somebody's daughter. She is still the same person, but perceived by others differently. And I don't particularly have a problem with how she is defined by others. That is all I have really been trying to say. And Ron could call her "sister" until the cows come home, but that will never actually make her MY sister. Peace. |
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Interloper
since 2000-11-06
Posts 8369Deep in the heart |
serenity, You make my point for me. You, and anybody else, can call Ron's sister anything you wish (sister, mother, daughter, cousin, etc) but that does not change who she is (the truth of her,if you will). People have many roles in life and they may be described by any and all of them but that does not change WHO they are; The essence of their existence. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
chuckling...so glad that you agree with me! |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
Serenity, After a long drawn out reply, I changed my mind. Check your email! ~Sheri |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you so much. Big hugs and you are a living testimonial--no need for words of witness from you! Made my night, you did! |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
Okay.. I'm often very reluctant to enter huge discussions like this since I believe what I believe and state simply that.(which some believe is "pushing" from me just because I state my faith firmly  never will understand that)Anyway..bear with me. Reading back over this thread, a few things that disturbed me a bit that I wanted to clear up if I could. Severn said: "It's like...sigh...they are infused with a belief that God can conquer even the hardest non-believer, so who gives a damn how it's said as long as the message is given." Yes, Christians are infused with such a belief. Some of them are infused with it because they have faith that it can happen, and some believe in it because they have actually witnessed such a thing. I know many who have witnessed it just like I have, so I have a firm belief that even the most hard non-believer can become a Christian. If you had something wonderful to give someone who you thought could benefit from it and you had seen it work before, wouldn't you go out and try to give it to someone else who you thought would benefit from it? As far as the "not giving a damn" how the message is delivered. I think you should know that not all Christians have a terrible presentation method when it comes to their faith. Yes, screaming, "You're a sinner and you're going to hell" in someone's face and beating them over the head with a bible is going to make a person a very afraid and reluctant or it might even cause them to let their stubborness for being confronted in such a way stand in the way of what they are curious about. (I hope I'm making sense) I believe the best way and the most non judgmental way for a Christian to present their faith and "win souls for God" (which...yes..is their mission, and who could begrudge anyone for standing up for what they believe in and offering it to others)is to simply ask, "Do you know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior..etc.." Usually if the person says no the Christian might ask if they would like to know Him or would like to hear about Him. This is one of the best ways I have been approached, so I've seen it work..which would make it something I believe can work for someone else. Then, there is always "alter call" at a church where a person can listen to the message and make their own decision without being personally and individually confronted. (still hoping you can make some sense of this) Really, I just wanted you to know that not all Christians have the attitude that you state above, so it isn't fair to judge a whole religion based on what only a part of the people (who could very well be hypocrites..because I believe there are people in every religion that bring that particular religion a bad rep)have done or failed to do. How do I know this? Its because I've seen it. Perhaps you haven't come across the right people or the right people haven't encountered you. I certainly wish I could introduce you to my family for proof that not all Christians have the approach you speak of. Severn said: "Why should they care, if in their rationale, the message and not the delivery is the most important?" Like I said, that kind of rationale doesn't belong to every Christian. The message and the delivery are both important. As far as why should they care? They care because it is their job and duty as Christians to care. They are required to lead both by example in actions AND by spreading the Word by voice. Let us also be reminded that Christianity does not equal perfection as a person. Christians slip "or backslide" just like everyone else does. So, if a Christian makes a mistake in presentation of their faith then we really shouldn't be so quick and harsh to judge them individually or as a group. In the end, the test is whether or not they keep turning to God for their faith and for strength to live by His teaching the best they can. Alan said: "Alan I agree that Christians work to convert people because it is their holy mission, and not because they genuinely care about others" Again, it is not fair to judge the whole group based on what only some are doing wrong. As I told Severn, I wish I could introduce you to some members of my family, who are Christians,(and in addition..to some of the Christians I've met) to prove to you that there are Christians out there who wish to convert people BOTH because it is their mission AND because they genuinely care about others. I have seen it work, so I believe fully in the existence of Christians who have that balance. As far as discussion quality..I don't know if I've done any good here. While I consider myself to be an intelligent person, I've never been able to make a presentation of example and discussion on here like some of the better ones here (like Brad and Ron..who do it amazingly). I've always been better with poetry and getting my point across with my creativity than speaking or discussing "out loud". So, yes, I'm being self conscious as usual, but that is just the way I am. LOL! I may have just gotten in over my head here, but I noticed things that disturbed me and felt moved to comment. I use the third person because although I have a Christian background, I cannot rightly say that I am a Christian at this point. I make my statements based no what I've been raised with, and what I would live by were I to make a full committment to my faith. Lack of full committment isn't because I don't believe in the things I speak of, but is perhaps a laziness on my part to do what God truly requires of me(there are things I am reluctant to give up it seems that I know I would have to)...but that is left for God, whoever he decides to send as a messenger to me, and myself to discover and deal with. To all who take the time to read and really understand what I'm saying...thank you. *Jenn* For all who watch.Dare you say hello? Come in and ask the questions that are on your mind, but spare me your judgement until you truly sipped of me. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Could I possibly be that person, Jenn? LOL Actually, your commitment to God is not what makes one a Christian. It is simply what He has done for the sinner, ie, on the sinners behalf. All He asks of the sinner is that the sinner appropriate to himself/herself what He has already done through faith, ie, to just take God at His word, to be "fully persuaded" that what He says is true, and He is able also to bring to pass what He has promised. For example, "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness". (Emphasis mine). It is a gift, pure and simple. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." (Emphasis mine). Issues of commitment, good works, repentence, perseverence, etc. are matters after one has first received the gift in all its glorious freeness, motivated by a heart of gratitude and love for His "unspeakable gift". I have several good Christian links on my site in the middle of the page if you want to check some of them out. They explain it much better, I'm sure, than I can. The Gospel message is simple and easy to understand. Some people just can't believe that it is that simple and therein lies their problem. It's not easy for folks like me who had been indoctrinated in a "works salvation" to just "let go and let God", so to speak. But that is the Gospel message. It's not about what we do, it's about what He has done. That's what makes true Christianity different from all other religions in the world. It's the only one that offers man redemption totally apart from man's work and effort, by His grace through faith in what He has done. Hope this helps! http://artisticwords.homestead.com/home.html |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Well...I have found those that are most secure within themselves and their belief system find no need not shout it out but keep it close to their heart. Amen! and If you are going to preach it, discuss it or disagree with it - move it to a discussion forum and remove it from a poetry section, but what do I know, I see it, and if I don't like it I push the "X" in the corner of my screen. |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
whats wrong with writing poetry about it? Just because its there doens't mean anyone has to read it. The poetry is fine, but when the discussion starts it should be moved to a discussion forum. We may not agree with everyone who posts religious poetry here, but then again, we don't have to read it. Why read something if you think you're not going to like it? For all who watch.Dare you say hello? Come in and ask the questions that are on your mind, but spare me your judgement until you truly sipped of me. |
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Auguste
since 2000-02-16
Posts 3953By the sea |
Jennifer, as a Christian, it is my duty to bring others to know Christ. I have always thought it best to lead by example. I don't and won't push my beliefs on anyone, but if they're willing to listen, I'll share my faith and how it's changed my life. The liberal news media likes to bash Christians and looks for the fanatics among us to show the world how narrow-minded and radical we are in our beliefs. Every religion has it's fanatics and fools, but not EVERY religion is regularly attacked by the liberal press. How often do you see a report on the good things Christians and Christian organizations are doing for people in this country and for countries around the world? It's almost as rare as hen's teeth. I'm weary of seeing Christianity bashed and bad-mouthed! Find another group to pick on, or better yet, get a life! I'm talking to the news media here. Michael Auguste~ |
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Interloper
since 2000-11-06
Posts 8369Deep in the heart |
Right on Michael! We seem to agree on how to live our Christian lives Heck, we Christians are really happy that atheists and polytheists no longer throw us to the lions (just kidding, Brad and EVERYBODY else ) |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Interloper, You're not going to let me wiggle out of this one, are you? The 'but' in my compliment does not void the first clause (It's only that people tend to place more emphasis on any perceived negatives than they do positives. "Too many notes" as the emperor said to Mozart after praising him.). You're not the only one who does this, but I don't understand it. Everytime I read "with a person of you're intellect" or "I'm not the smartest kid on the block" I'm always thinking, "What does that have to do with anything?" I'm sure we both agree that the smartest person in the world can make mistakes (I think the record IQ is 226, from a person who has led a remarkably undistinguished life given that number -- or so we're led to believe and expect). I'm sure we also agree that we can learn many things from children and from those who are slow learners. We have an entire literary tradition of the fool/child/innocent as truth teller. So why worry about it? True, we have to make choices about what to read and who to listen to but reputation is based on more than intelligence. If you remember the anti-intellectualism thread, Tim made the excellent point that academics place too much emphasis on intelligence when choosing politicians. I agree but it does seem that not only academics, but everybody sees intelligence as some sort of determining factor with regards to respect (anti-intellectualism just means it determines you're disrespect). If you've decided to read me or anybody, read the argument, the poem, or whatever. If I make a mistake, call me on it (not worried you won't, of course), if you disagree, tell me and give your reasons. But I simply see no point in extrapolating my IQ from whatever I say and then using that as a point to disagree with that specific argument. This goes as well for "I'm only of average intelligence". Why does this matter? If you have a point, make it, and let me try to decide its value without having to worry about YOUR IQ level. Paradoxically, I see nothing wrong with claiming a lack of knowledge in any specific area. This is something you can change. As a result, you're essentially telling someone that you're in an inferior position and that you wouldn't mind learning more. At the same time, if you claim superior knowledge without proving it (the secret, my experience, after years of study, I know -- I was watching Fox news yesterday and Holbrook was doing this), you pretty much force me to say, "Prove it." True, there are certain situations where this is necessary (national security, the promise of secrecy and so forth), but if you have to rely on the "I know" arguments to make your point in a free forum of ideas, it's probably best not to say anything at all. See the distinctions? Now obviously this isn't all meant for you, but you gave me the opportunity and I took it. Jenn, I agree with just about everything you say, and I don't think Allan meant all Christians either (and if he did, that's easily enough disproved). Auguste makes a distinction between fanatics and Christians and my own example is certainly that of the fanatic, but that's not quite the appropriate distinction for me. I suppose the easiest way to understand this is to find an Indian Islamic newspaper in English and read it. Don't read it as if they were different from you, read it as if it were a newpaper in the United States and, I hope, you'll be able to glimpse the feeling that troubles me. Officially, the United States is a secular nation; unofficially, it's hard to see it as anything but a Christian country -- a point lost on most Christians for some reason; perhaps they simply assume that their rituals, their thinking, their language is the natural one? Aside: Auguste, I disagree, the liberal media do not bash Christians, they bash anything outside of their own (largely Christian inspired) views of what is natural. Christians ARE the majority, the rest of us are in the minority. Secularism is not really a religion; it is a tool of language and action to avoid confrontations that most of us neither have the time nor the patience to endure in our everyday (quotidian) lives. Religion, at its best, is a difficult subject, full of passion, energy, thought, and ideas that can literally change your life. A conversation such as this should not be taken into lightly. The Christians I refer to are the ones who break the rules of secularism and attempt to engage in conversation at the wrong time and in the wrong place. If someone comes up to me and asks me on the street, while I'm walking to work, on a date with my wife, or discussing last night's soccer game with a friend, "Do you know Christ?" How am I supposed to respond? I do not want to enter into this conversation at this time, it should have been clear from the context that I am not interested in this particular conversation at this particular time. The rules of secularism do not hurt the freedom to believe or to speak, they channel them into the appropriate time. I fail to see how their motivation should be seen as a reason for this break in what we can call, not misleadingly, a 'social contract'. I believe that it trivializes the importance of religion. A long time ago, a question was posted in this forum (although it would be in the Lounge now): Who was the most important person of the last thousand years? Inevitably, someone said Jesus Christ. Now, believe it or not, I think a case can be made for that answer but no case was made, it was assumed that it was the correct one -- no explanation needed. While the rest of us were stuck wondering if the question was simply misread, "Who was the most IMPORTANT . . . .", one can imagine the defensiveness of a person who takes the position that how the message is presented is nothing compared to the what of the message. If I got the question wrong, who cares, the only thing that matters is the message. It is an argument by assertion, by authority, and by arrogance. It is what I called an "I know" argument and, if you read my response to Interloper, you already know that I consider this to be superfluous, frivolous, and annoying. Thus, you end up trivializing the very thing you want to promote. Inevitably. Brad PS Thanks for the compliment. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Interloper, I like this: "Heck, we Christians are really happy that atheists and polytheists no longer throw us to the lions (just kidding, Brad and EVERYBODY else )" I was afraid that you were taking my comments more personally than I intended (see above). Glad you're not. Of course, it should be pointed out that, like the Christian persecution in Tokugawa Japan, Christians were never the only ones being persecuted. Brad |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
This is going to be my last post in this thread. It was never my intention to further aggravate the situation. I simply wanted a little respect for my beliefs. The constant helpful correction of my beliefs got to be a bit insulting. I just thought I would say something about it. So it's said. The people who know me, know my heart. Never my intent to offend, nor do any harm. And seeing how this is going, I truly wish this thread would just be locked. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Thread locked on request by author. Alicat Alley/Lounge Mod |
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