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Responding to ones own poetry.... Marina and Marina 2 ???
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Responding to ones own poetry.... Marina and Marina 2 ??? |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
Am I the only one who is not sure that I like the new feature, which will no longer allow the originating poster to reply to their own posts; and this will then in return put it back to the top of the forum??? I post my poetry in the forums here so that I may share my thoughts and feelings. When another poet takes the time to respond to my work I wish to express my gratitude by posting a reply. I feel it is unfair for a fellow poet to search the entire forum to read my response. With this in mind, I have wondered whether it is now necessary to have "Marina and Marina 2". I shall post as always under my user name, but do I need Marina 2 just to post my responses to my poetry and thus placing it back to the beginnning??? Also, the forum moves far to quickly and I feel that some of the extrodinary poetry that is posted at Passions on a daily basis will be very quickly shuffled back to the pages of "No man's land". OK.... I am done! Anyone else have a similiar opinion to this problem??? Thanks, Marina It is a blessing to have wings for words, and passion in pen Marina Crossley [This message has been edited by Marina (edited 02-03-2001).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I think Ron will be working on something, Marina....I am not sure what, but please don't adopt an alias just now....thanks.... [This message has been edited by Sunshine (edited 02-03-2001).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
How about an opposing opinion? I see three different attitudes on this issue. I see the people who never go back and thank those who have responded to their work, and I think that's a little sad. This place thrives on interaction and dialog, and I feel it's just plain nice to voice a simple thank you. I also see people who withhold their thank you's as long as they can, trying to catch their poem when it's already at the top, because they feel guilty when they thank everyone - knowing they are bumping their poem whenever they do. And, of course, there is the third group, those who try to manipulate the system and use thank you's to keep their poetry at the top as long as possible. The new unbump feature was implemented so no one need feel guilty for saying thank you and otherwise keeping the dialog flowing. It has the added side-effect of thwarting those few who would manipulate the system. I only wish it could also encourage the more silent among us to step forward, but hey, two out of three ain't too shabby. I certainly agree with you, Marina, when you express a concern that the forums move too quickly and some of the extraordinary poetry gets shuffled to the back. But that's really the whole point. Thank you's are important and I want to do everything I can to encourage them. But are they as important as the poetry? I can understand you want others to know you thanked them, and I sincerely hope everyone is reading "deep" enough to find your thank you. But for your thank you to move to the top, that means a poem MUST drop off the end. And, personally, I don't think that a better solution. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Marina! Hi. You said: quote: I for one like the 'unbump' feature though it seems a few members do not. You can still reply to replies..but yes, the post remains where it is in line until another member replies. quote: I feel the same way, but I hated having to 'bump' my poems to do so. quote: With the library right at hand, I can keep on top of my poems and see when someone has replied. And if I like a poem and want to keep track of the conversation with another poet, I put THAT poem in my library. quote: This is nothing new, members have done this before - what gets them in the end is forgetting to switch profile identities!! quote: This will always happen here..it's because we have SO many members. But now, being able to have 50 or 100 posts on the first page eliminates that 'passionate plummet' somewhat. But if you read from 'Today's Topics' as I do, you will see the poems as they move up and down with replies...it's really an effective way to read all the posts. And Sunshine is right, Ron is considering something to 'fix' this. Personally, I'll hate to see the unbump go away. But it's his call.  [This message has been edited by Poet deVine (edited 02-03-2001).] |
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CocoBaci Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 3043 |
I am going to speak my mind on this issue even though I'm a newbie here and really only come in to read with the odd time a poem I post but in all the time I have come to this haven that gives me peace I gotta say I'm relieved & smiling bigtime at the system for the 'unbump' feature... Perhaps you can label me a shyone so I'm probably somewhat guilty in not replying as often to a poem I've posted as others have done, but that's who I am and I know the friends who I have acquainted with do not take offense to this position I have and if anything they cherish more my replies made to their own poems... So I applaud Ron for seeing all the angles in this sticky situation and for this remedy... But I have read somewhere within these forums that maybe an added color code to a folder indicating a response by a poster has been made could eventually implemented... This being said that would be an indication to ALL readers/posters that the poet has added commentary to the thread without bumping it rite back to the top again... I trust I haven't disappointed anyone in sharing my feelings on this and if I have then feel free to email me... coco You get a lot more lesson mileage when you lose in some situations than always winning... |
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CocoBaci Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 3043 |
Oh, one more thing, Marina I'm glad you raised this point ~coco~ |
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Dopey Dope
Moderator
Member Patricius
since 2000-08-30
Posts 11132San Juan, Puerto Rico |
Good point here........regardless of anything......I thought the old way was a better way. At least with this.  I was born myself, raised myself, and will continue to be myself. The world will just have to adjust. I'm in love with my shadow I admire it daily |
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Krawdad Member Elite
since 2001-01-03
Posts 2597 |
I'm so new here that I hadn't fully develped my habits or actually figured out how to do some things when the changes were made. But I had figured out how to use "Todays Topics" and my "Private Library". The latter, in particular, can help a lot in monitoring your comments and in responding to comments. The only problem I have with it is that there is no "alert" to tell me that there is a new comment, especially to an older piece. I have to remember how many comments there were the last time I logged in. The more work I submit, the more difficult that will get. A fix for that would be nice, but otherwise I think we should wait a bit to see how well this works for most people. At this point, and with so many contributing members, I think Ron is headed in the right direction. I don't have a lot of time to devote to this site (tho I wish I did) and I suspect that the "unbump" is giving me a better view of the variety of contributers and contributions during my short visits. Thanks for letting a newbee babble on.  |
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insect Senior Member
since 2000-04-22
Posts 1014 |
Ron said, “Thank you's are important and I want to do everything I can to encourage them. But are they as important as the poetry?” ________________________________________ I would have to say I think they are as important ________________________________________ I would like to see that bump feature back in Passions Some Thoughts If a new poet gets only one or a few replies then they are gone down pretty far on the list. I think that extra bump from themselves will help make a difference because they may get more replies just by being back at the top. *I think most of us live on the first page near the top because we all return automatically after a read and we want to see what’s come up from below for numerous reasons ~Sometimes we have threads that all the replies are verses of poetry and the originator of the thread will get left out from the bump every time they try and get back in with a new verse.( there own response is poetry if it’s part of a continuing thread and deserves a bump) ~Sometimes a poet lives in the replies like me (but I only respond after a reply) (And not usually right away) all though there has been a few times when I and most other poets have given themselves a free bump. *Once I had a poem where all my responses to my poem were small poems to each person, that was in “The Gatekeeper”. ~If a poet goes away for a few weeks and returns and then responds to their replies they may never be noticed. The “Today’s Topics” area is almost as long as the first page and will get longer as we go. ~Some poets respond to mega poems they will have to check all of them again but if they see the poem at the top they can check right away without the big search *I think that the longer pages with the self-bump will work well together and maybe the moderators could warn people who abuse self-bumps. *Maybe a “New Forum” that only has poems from a newer poet with a certain number of posts but everyone else can still reply to them. Then after they reach a higher post number their poems automatically start showing up in the more active forum. ( Lower originating posts keeps your poems in the “New Forum”) *I think some of the excitement is lost if you can’t bump your own poem after your replies *The top of the list gives you instant information about what has happened to a poem and I think that’s important for someone who likes to click “refresh” every once in a while. *By the way Ron I love everything you’ve done here especially “Smart Search”. [This message has been edited by insect (edited 02-04-2001).] |
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Paula Finn Member Ascendant
since 2000-06-17
Posts 5546missouri |
Im kinda split on this(forgive me Im a Gemini LOL) But here goes...I understand the aggravation of having someone reply just to bump their poem back to the top...but as an intelligent discerning person(I hope)I can choose who I do or dont read and respond to...Just because a poem is on top doesnt mean Im gonna read it...as far as my stuff goes...Im in here at such odd times that sometimes by the time I get the chance to reply my poem may have slipped back to page two or three or four LOL...I like being able to bump them back up top...by saying thank you to my fellow poets who took the time to say nice things about my poems. Like I said no one can force anyone to read a poem...so what difference does it make if ya bump it once or a hundred times? Maybe Ron can figure out a way to let the individual authors decide whether they want to bump a poem...ya know like choosing a font? Click it if you want to respond but not bump a poem back up top...that way the author has the call...I have poems that are very important to me that I like keeping up top...and others that well yeah I wrote it buuutttttttt!!!!!! I think we all have those....ok ok Ive said my rambling piece...if I hadda vote I'd vote the bump back in...maybe you could put a limit on the number of times the originating post could bump it? |
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Colin Senior Member
since 1999-06-05
Posts 596Callington, Cornwall, England |
Tricky issue here. I'm inclined to favour the "right to choice" option of letting the post originator chose if their replies bump or not. Another option could be to let the originator bump if the number of replies are under a certain amount, say 10 or 20? Bump abusers could be warned for a first offence, put on bump parole for repeated abuse or bump banned for continually ignoring warnings. Is this possible? Is this practical? Is this popular? Find out in the next exciting installment of "Bumpmania xxiv: one bump too far" Colin. Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them. - Bill Vaughan [This message has been edited by Colin (edited 02-04-2001).] |
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Marsha
since 2000-07-10
Posts 7423Maidstone Kent England |
Marina I'm glad you posted this query, and like Paula I'm sort of split on this. I do think that the new stuff is absolutely fabulous. Really well done Ron! I think on reflection I like the option of choice, to bump or not to bump. Which would probably be the best idea. Also giving you the chance to see those that do manipulate the system for themselves. I really do appreciate all the new features, I think though I have some sort of problem on mine because I keep getting shut out of viewing my posts. And being that I've tried everything else I think it might be a problem with my computer. Anyway that is neither here nor there. Thank you Ron for the hard work, thank you everyone who tested, and thank you Marina for giving me a chance to add my fourpence worth. Take care Mushy  Take back the hope you gave,- I claim Only a memory of the same Robert Browning |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I vote Colin as BumpPatrolLeader..... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
There's poetry here?  |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
LOL @ christopher... hehe .....i use today's topics ...... and if you respond to your own poem to thank people, even if your original post was on another day, it will appear in today's topics, so people can find it and read your "thank you's ... hehe... finally i figured it out... [This message has been edited by doreen peri (edited 02-04-2001).] |
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Colin Senior Member
since 1999-06-05
Posts 596Callington, Cornwall, England |
LOL Sunshine! Do I get to wear a plastic sherriff badge? If so, I'll take the job *8) Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them. - Bill Vaughan |
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Tamma
since 2000-01-17
Posts 794In His Arms, Harpers Ferry, WV |
I, too liked it better the other way, to me, it felt like the users had better communications with it like that. but If Mr. Ron leaves it as is, you can reply to their poetry, and thank them there (Did I just say Mr. Ron???) Oh, my I think I may need some more sleep www.angelfire.com/wv2/poetrycorner I'm just a girl looking at a guy asking him to love me |
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Rex Member
since 2000-06-29
Posts 482Houston, Texas |
Congratulations to Ron on the new forums. I for one like the "unbump" feature. I always respond to comments on my poetry and do so through E-mail. I have always used the E-mail reply in order not to take up board space to say thank you. |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
I have an idea or two that could possibly resolve this matter. One is, I don't know if it is possible or not, but if there was a way to put some kind of "time sensor" on each thread, so that after a certain amount of time the originator, or maybe for all replies, of the thread could throw it back to the top or atleast have the choice of it. The other idea which is along the same lines is that once the poem hits a certain number, ie. it becomes 87th on the list then a thread could then be bumped by its originator. Again I don't know if any of these are possible or even worth the trouble but I just thought I would bring it up incase it hadn't been thought of already. Well that is my two-cents worth. The White Wolf |
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Acies
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665Twilight Zone |
I do like the old way, but in a sense do understand the reasons for taking it off. I think this is a good discussion so we can all see everyones opinion about it. I see no changes, wake up in the morning I ask myself, "Is life worth living or should I blast myself" TUPAC SHAKUR |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Well. . . it would seem that a lot of bases have been covered here. . . but you know me Marina. . . I can't resist to give you my two cents. . . I love the un-bump feature. . . I could have really used it when I was working on my "Passions Gallery" series. . . posting two poems a day sometimes. . . and trying to keep up with all the responses. . . it made it look like I was the only poet here at Passions somedays!! LOL But, I used e-mail too, like Rex, to make sure that everyone was able to be seen on page one and to make sure that I thanked those that read. Now though, with the new feature that makes the pages as long as you want, you'll never have to worry about falling off of page one, becuase you could be there indefinitely if you do it right! And, why do you want to move your responses back to the beginning? If I respond to someone, I go back and I look for the poem that I responded to, and see if there's a comment back. There usually is. . . and then, I move on. . . sometimes, I even respond a second or a third time if there's something there that makes me want to reply again. . . I too, believe that it's important to thank people for taking the time to read and comment on your work. . . it's good to see. . . to know that my writing is reaching people is wonderful. . . and gives me a good feeling inside. . . but I don't really want to take up space at the top when there are so many other wonderful writers and poems to be read. . . Ok. . . there you go. . . I hope that this feature doesn't go away. . . I really like Coco's suggestion about making the folder a different color when the poet has replied to their own post. . . I don't know if that can be done. . . but I'd really like to see it. . . Good point Marina. . . thanks for stopping by. . . drop us a line again soon ok?? We'd really like to see more of your stuff soon my friend. . . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. [This message has been edited by Sven (edited 02-04-2001).] |
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insect Senior Member
since 2000-04-22
Posts 1014 |
Since March 22/ 2000…..I have had a lot of fun at Passions in the Forums…. ……Because of the way the Forums bump a poem up to the top when there is a response. That feature made poems drop farther to the bottom (everyone knows that) and that was unfortunate to the poem at the bottom. But now you have the option of making your first page bigger. I think the solution is here right before our eyes. This option is the solution to a self-bump because now the lower poems are still on page one. I like to be in Open because that is where most of the interaction is on poems. I also like to check out other Forums too. When I’m in a Forum like Open 12…I get the pleasure of knowing what has happened to a poem instantly because I’m already there and when a poem has been bumped to the top that indicates immediately a response from either the author or a fan of the author. This I believe is the essence of interaction in Passions. Now when I’m in Open 12… I have to leave or search to get the same information that was automatically done for me from a bump or self-bump because I’m already there I find this constant search a little stressful……probably because it wasn’t something I had to do before…….mind you when you want to search for something it doesn’t feel stressful at all….maybe this extra clicking is just something to get use to but I would rather hang out in Open 12 near the top of the page catching everything that’s happening while I’m there, instead of hanging out in “Today’s Topics” or my “Library”……..Sorry! I think if someone gets a lot of responses to their poem they deserve to bump it because it’s a great poem and it should be viewed more in the top of the list. Well…this is all new and new things take time to get use to and they deserve a chance of course so this stress may be a little premature. One more thing if someone responds to there own poem at 11:59pm does there poem disappear from “Today’s Topics” a minute later? [This message has been edited by insect (edited 02-05-2001).] |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
I've just got a sore finger from scrolling and wobbly eyes from seeing so many entries...ROFL HUGS |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
Well I would also like to see the bump feature put back in. I tend not to put out a lot of poetry but I do like to have it read and I love the interaction that comes with this process. I also like to hang out in open because it's where I started and its like my home local... at passions. I visit other area's and may on occasion post or comment but feel the draw to open. So that's where I live. Since I found passions I've changed my writing focus, before it was just my poetry for one individual. Now its the poetry I write at passions for my friends and fellow poets here. I want it read by them, I love to see their comments and I want to thank each and everyone for taking the time….. If my poem disappears into oblivion then it wont get read, it wont be noticed by the poets that like my stuff And I’ll be very sad and alone…..  I feel that there is a great need in us to be read, to share our feelings, express who we are, show our bare souls to our fellow poets, and in my case try to flirt shamelessly with as many of the wonderful women at Passions as is possible in the life cycle of my poetry.  I really don’t know all the new features that well just yet, so I don’t know what can replace the old in and out tides that occurred in open with the bump, but I do think maybe there are ways to make it less abusive. I like the idea of replying to everybody that last replied to my poem in one reply grouping. So if I’m away for the day I’ll catch up on everybody at once. I know that submitting separate replies to each person will just cause unnecessary bumps and I feel that would seem abusive and is deemed abusive by many. ** a solution to this compounded reply bumping would be to only have the poem bump up if your own reply was not the last reply. ….. so you can’t submit 5 separate replies every xx minutes just to bump if you were the last reply. Only if somebody else replied to your poem since you last replied would it bump up. ** similar to a suggestion up above, maybe you can’t boost your own poem unless it gets past a certain point say page 5 or 100 positions …. Etc etc… (yes ladies I know hundreds of positions )Its late can’t think anymore….. catch you on the next bump. Parker…. PS… if none of this made sense it was purely intentional. [This message has been edited by Haleyja (edited 02-05-2001).] |
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Robert Joseph Member
since 2000-10-07
Posts 491South Carolina |
I may be overlooking some key points here, but isn't having to navigate between more than one board defeating the purpose of having the numbered Open Boards to begin with. If I'm being led to follow the progression of postings on ''Today's Topics'' it stands to reason, that I and others will be spending less time on the main board. I never felt as if I were being rude or self-promoting by thanking someone for reading and replying to my work. And, in fact follow what I think is excellent board etiquette, as do the majority of talented and respected individuals who participate here. I agree with the reasoning, that says -- just because a piece is moved to the top by a reply, doesn't mean it has to be read and replied to. (mine included, of course) I believe each participant should use their own discretion in the matter. I for one know that I've seen pieces move to the top after having the author thank any number of folks responding, and basically have the piece to run its course and be found any number of pages back in a matter of hours. So my final point and opinion is that the bump-up feature should be reinstated, thereby making it less of a chore to keep up with postings. While poetry and the sharing of it are wonderful, there are outside interest as well. Time is valuable, making the swiftness of my involvement here an important aspect. I'll conclude by saying, I love the board, and by passing my thanks along to you Ron for creating such a healthy environment for the sake of our art. Thanks, Robert Joseph |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
never mind *S* [This message has been edited by suthern (edited 02-05-2001).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I have removed about half a dozen "chit chat" posts, as I consider this an important topic. Banter is great in its place, but I think serious discussions deserve serious responses. Let's stay focused on the issues, guys. |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
Well, I guess my only real suggestion was no doubling up on your replies .... one right after the other... sure would eliminate extra bumps..... had some more ideas... but I have brain lock....i'll be back. Parker |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
I agree with Parker's suggestion. I feel that no one here can dispute the fact that if your poetry is bumped back to the top, it will be read more than someone sitting in the 100th spot. Most of us here would wait until we have several responses and were on at least page two, before we would respond. This to me is reasonable and not abusing the system. I think there is a simple solution for this problem. It is a matter of personal choice. Either you respond in the post and have it bump, or people can e-mail there thank you's and not respond in their poetry. I have been a member here now for exactly one year. I have always enjoyed the poetry and the new friends I have made. I received an e-mail today in regards to my "issue" with this new umbump feature. it starts as follows... What is the deal with you and the "unbump" feature?? You haven't written anything in the past god knows how many months. . . not that it's important or anything. . . but you act like it's something that affects you. . . and since you haven't been or written at Passions in forever (or at least a couple of weeks) why are you taking that feature to task in such a manner?? It is true I no longer post as much as I once did. This is for personal reasons and certainly nothing to do with Passions. I enjoy Passions just as much today as I did a year ago. However, I AM still a member and so therefore I AM intitled to express myself as I have done in the past and will continue to do so when I feel it necessary. I stand firm on the unbump feature. In saying this however, I must also say that I am very grateful for all the work Ron has put into all this "new Passions." Ijust HAD to say all that.... Marina |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Marina, while I certainly didn't write that letter to you, I nonetheless apologize for one of our Members doing so. EVERY person who visits this site, whether they register or not, whether they post poetry or not, has a right to voice their concerns and opinions. And they will be heard. Frankly, this is one reason why I have very seriously considered removing email addresses from public view. Too many people seem to feel email is a viable way to circumvent courtesy. But that, I suppose, is fodder for another thread. |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
Ron, Thank you very much for your quick response in regards to this matter. Though I most certainly apprecaite your apology, it is not necessary. It was indeed NOT you who sent me this e-mail as you have stated and therefore it is that persons place to offer an apology. Although I completely understand as Webmaster to this wonderful place, you have responsibilies to the members, however I feel the onus lies with the member in such cases as this. Thanks again, Marina |
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Jesse Jaymz Senior Member
since 2000-01-24
Posts 708Youngstown, ohio |
Marina, i completly agree with you on this subject. i love the bump up feature we once had. in some forums like adult it moves slow and you dont need it. but in places like open you post and its gone in a half hour. and with more and more people joining everyday the forums are moving alot faster. great peices of poem are just falling. and personaly i dont like that. i think the replys are just as important as the poem. when i get a reply it makes me feel so great. and i love thanking that person and that person seeing that thank you. as much as we would like to, not all of us go back to the poems we read and read the replys. especialy if it is on the 5 or 6th page bye the time we get there. it would be inmpossible to do hat all the time. so i love the bump feature we had. true i dont post as much asa i would like to anymore. alot of it is personal probloms. but like ron said we are all member and can voice our opioin. thats why i love this place. and i do thank ron so much for having this place for all of us to gather and for all the things he has done. and i hope to see it running for many more years. thank for letting me vent Jesse True beauty is often hidden in darkness... |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
i have placed a couple of questions or suggestions on this issue in Q&A for those who would like to know more... /pip/Forum13/HTML/000598.html Thanks, Marina [This message has been edited by Marina (edited 02-06-2001).] |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
Thanks Marina for the link, I'll check it out. Parker |
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dgvarner Member Elite
since 2000-05-13
Posts 3552High Springs, Florida |
so..my two cents (and that may be all its worth..haha) goes something like this... i love this place..but i dont have a LOT of time to spend here...the bumping of my own poetry gives me a chance to at least let people know i appreciate their reading me and leaving their key-prints on my post...even when i dont get the chance to read many of their posts (which i hate...  ) sometimes all the time i have is to say thank you..and if a lot of people have stopped by my post since i last got to visit passions, that can actually take me a good bit of time, as i'm slow and thoughtful...and i dont want people to think i dont give a rip, while my post is lying stale on page 5 or 6 because it didnt go back to the top with my appreciation..i dont always make much sense..getting from my head into words...so..i may do best just to say..i agree mostly with paula, insect, and haleyja as far as their "arguments" FOR the bump..and theyve got some good ideas...i understand that some people do abuse the bump idea where their own posts are concerned...but as has been said, they could rcv a warning..and a penalty for the abusive nature of their bumping.. i like best the idea of a specific button for those who would wish to/not to bump with their thank you replies... btw..love the new smilies! shutting up now...i'm the ramble queen..sorry..  hugs, g |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Okay, I'm refrencing back to the thread in Q&A for this reply. . . check it out if you'd like. . . thought that my reply belonged better here than there. . . quote: This is totally wrong. What the unbump feature (or should I say, "The removal of the Bump Feature"?) does has been explained before, so I will not go into it again. quote: I'm not picking on Marina, she started the thread, she gave her opinion on the subject. I was speaking to her directly. I even sent an e-mail apologizing to her if it seemed like I was doing as such. That was not my intention. And if she is speaking for those "silent voices" then perhaps we need to hear more from them. We have from some of them already, but if there are more of them out there, perhaps they need to make themselves more known, as well as those of you who like this feature (or rather, the removal of this feature). I don't know about anyone else, but I look at the bumping of other poet's poems by me as a chance to say to other people, "Please look at this poem that I've found". Sure, that might sound a little crazy, but it's how I look at it. And yes, when that happens, other people (including myself) do get bumped down. And yes, the author will indeed reply less than the other poets (although I don't know why we need to state that). But I see it as part of the interaction. The sharing of other people's poetry. Which is one of the main reasons that we're all here. . . we not only like to write poetry, we also like to read poetry by others, and yes, have our poetry read as well. It's not selfish to want to be read Parker. . .it's normal. We all want to be read by others and told that our work is good, I know that I do. But that doesn't happen all the time. Not everyone likes my work. Not becuase they don't like me, but because they just don't like what I write. And that's to be expected. You can't please everyone. It's life. And yes, I am a prolific writer, and yes, there are days where a lot of my posts will be on page one at the same time. Which is why I spend a lot of time replying to other poets, especially the ones that took the time to read and to respond to my work. But I don't stop there. . . I try to read as much as possible. . . by as many people as possible (and yes, I know that not all of you have that luxury. . . I am merely speaking for myself) But wait a minute. . . what happens when I respond to so many other people?? You guessed it. . . I bump myself down. . . If someone wants to read my work, they'll find me. . . if I want to read someone else's work, I'll find them. . . if anything, another effect of the removal of this feature is that it makes you go back (beyond page 3) to look. . . which in turn, I hope, lets you see other posts by other poets that you might have missed. . . But, there are writers here who are more prolific than I. . . would you also limit them? Would you impose rules and regulations like I've seen on other Forums (some that limit you to only 10 posts per day!). . . or would you rather Passions be the kind of place that it is. . .where anyone can come in at anytime and know that they're going to read some of the best poetry and prose by some of the best writers in the world??? Thanks. . . I love all the new features too. . . they're excellent. . . keep it up Ron. . . Thanks for reading. . . and for letting me give my opinion. . . -------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
Just to quickly respond again.... quote:Sven Since its still early since the change over and removal of this feature…. I can only state my opinion with out any hard core stats. But I’ll stick with my belief. Poems will disappear into oblivion faster without that feature. This will hit the new poets harder and they will see, oblivion sooner. The regular poets will get recognized and responded to more often, this is reality …..(or my opinion of it. ) Time willSoon tell or maybe already is….. quote:Sven You've stated it Sven.... all your replying is just going to bump yourself and all the ones you don't reply to down to oblivion.... there is no stopping them there going down. So maybe you should reply to everybody. The only fair thing to do is to remove bumping altogether…. Do I want this….NO WAY. The other options I mentioned don’t thrill me too much either. I put them in as alternatives and mostly to show, that if you really want to be fair…. Then be fair all the way. I don’t want too many restrictions put on us, either, I don’t want Passions to be like the other places, if you’ve read that into my comments Then reread them again pal, cause that is not what I meant. As for the issue on Marina, well I don’t want to really get into it too much, but its my opinion too. I judged it by all that I was privy to read. Anyway, she is speaking out for those that won’t and so are you. It just seemed like you were more concerned on putting down her opinion on this issue, when others have the same opinion. So enough said, it probably shouldn’t be part of this discussion. So I wont say anymore on it…. Unless you bring it up again…..  So lets not… KI guess we need to agree to disagree on this issue. There is always going to be two sides and that is what makes this place so diverse. Whatever happens Passions will go on and still be great…… Oh, yes… I know its been mentioned but whats to stop a poet who creates an obvious second alias username…. Say “PoetGuy” and “PoetGuy2” from just replying to his own posts with the second username, wont that defeat the unbump feature. This will be obvious, they’re not hiding or disguising themselves, will that become against policy. Just a thought cause its bound to happen. Parker I have no poetry to write…. So I’ll write this trash…  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I don't have a lot of time, but I would like to add a few points. Those who frequent the Philosophy forums will know that I am a strong proponent of "natural" systems, and believe we interfere with them at great risk. Capitalism, as just one example, works because it's based on natural "laws" like supply and demand, laws which can be quickly destroyed when governments start meddling (i.e., fixing prices). On the other hand, we need strong antitrust laws against monopolies, else Capitalism will inevitably plunge into injustice. Okay, enough economics. My point is that I believe we sometimes need to intervene in a process, while still trying very hard not to interfere. Unbump was my attempt to intervene in a process that was becoming increasingly unfair to many. When you reply to another person's post, you are essentially saying "This is a good poem." The post shoots to the top of the page, to get a fresh start at being read. The more people who respond to that poem, the more people will get a chance to read it. In theory, the best poems get the most exposure. It's a fair, very "natural" system, and every Member here is on exactly the same footing. And, yea, I know a response isn't "always" motivated by the quality of the work. It's often motivated by the popularity of the Member, but that's just another way of saying the poet has spent their time replying to others - something we ALL want to encourage. A response can also be motivated by theme, title, time of day, and I guess whether there's a full moon or not. But, again, we're all on the same footing where those are concerned. Bumping your own post has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the work. Neither pro nor con. I wouldn't even have a problem with that, if everyone still remained on the same footing. But the perception of politeness prevents us from all being equal in this regard. Some refuse to bump their own post, preferring to email their thanks or offer none at all. Some withhold their thanks as long as possible. And some, because they have the perception nothing is wrong with bumping their own posts, will reply to every second or third post. NONE of those reactions are inherently wrong! But neither are they equal, and they certainly don't have anything to do with the quality of the poetry. Those who are either too meek or too polite are being punished by a system that should instead be centered around the poem and not the personality of the poet. Sadly, there will never be a perfectly equitable system. There are people here who write poetry with meanings on several different levels, much more difficult to read, much more difficult to understand, and they typically receive fewer responses even though their very depth adds to the quality of the poetry. There are some who pursue sensationalistic, ego-enhancing themes that garner more responses than quality should dictate. But while the system is, and will likely always remain, imperfect, I do think it's pretty fair. I also think it rather closely mimics real world publishing, where buying your own book probably isn't the best way to establish high sales. Personally, I would hate to see these forums turn into little more than a popularity contest. I'd like to think we are here to share poetry that is meaningful to us and, perhaps, to learn to do it better. We all want to be read, else we wouldn't be here. But posting at Passions is almost a guarantee you will be read, and probably appreciated, often by many more people than you realize, certainly by more than take the time to respond. Those who are seeking higher number, who are seeking popularity, have a very simple solution, one that is on an equal footing with every other Member - you need but write better, more popular poetry. In closing, let me tell you first what I won't do, and then what I will do. I won't make an unfair system more unfair by letting some bump and other choose to not bump. People shouldn't be put at a disadvantage because they want to be polite. Nor will I add a whole bunch of rules about how many poems you can post, or how many thank you's you can extend, or whether a post on page three should be automatically brought forward because it has too few replies, or whether the third thank-you on an alternate Tuesday should be allowed to bump the thread. One of the things that has made me the most proud of our family is that our Members care as much about people as they do poetry - new people never fail to get responses and everyone watches for those occasional zero-reply posts to insure they don't get ignored. Courtesy, in my estimation, goes a whole lot farther than rules. What I will do, however, is continue to listen. I'm under the gun right now and don't have time to respond to every argument, but I assure you I'm reading them. I honestly haven't heard one person yet tell me why they should control the destiny of their post, rather than leave it to the majority, nor has anyone suggested why their thank you is more valid than the poem it MUST replace at the top of page. But the Unbump isn't carved in stone. When everyone has had more time to accustom themselves to it, and when I am under a little less pressure, I'll try to come up with a fair way for everyone to vote on the issue. All I really want, after all, is a system that's fair to everyone. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I would like to take this moment to thank all involved in this discussion for being very mature and responsible with their responses. This had made this thread, which I at first thought to attract many attacks, one of the most intriguing ones to read. And this is all due to you, the participants. This is what the Alley is for, disputation, as well as rants, raves, and complaints. And though there have been several differing opinions, the poets thus represented have offered their arguments with the highest respect towards all others. For this, I salute each and every one of you. Alicat, Alley Moderator [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 02-07-2001).] |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
After reading the comments placed in here today I feel I must respond once again. Sven you said: _____________________________________________ "I'm not picking on Marina, she started the thread, she gave her opinion on the subject. I was speaking to her directly. I even sent an e-mail apologizing to her if it seemed like I was doing as such. That was not my intention." ___________________________________________ The ONLY reason you sent me an e-mail with your paper thin apology, was because you had originally sent me an unsolicated, nasty e-mail, with your "I am the heart of Passions attitude." In which you said, and I quote " You haven't written anything in the past god knows how many months but you act like it's something that affects you" Well here is a newsflash for ya... IT DOES!!! it affects every single person here at Passions! I have stated all my reasons why I prefer the "bump" feature as have many others. I 'm not going to waste everyone's time by repeating myself. How you can still ask why I feel as I do, I have no idea! Perhaps you simply haven't been paying attention. You also said: _____________________________________________But wait a minute. . . what happens when I respond to so many other people?? You guessed it. . . I bump myself down. . . _____________________________________________ Every true!!! So then why is it then that you always respond to others first and then yourself?? If you respond to yourself last, doesn't this put your poem on the top??? The Alley is a place to state your opinions and voice your concerns. It is also for mature adults. This issue is not suppose to be based on who you are, how often you post, or how often you post to others. We all just want to be read....that's all. In the words of Forrest Gump..." And that's all I got to say about that." It is a blessing to have wings for words, and passion in pen Marina Crossley |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
As I had placed my previous post prior to reading Ron and Alicat's, I would like to say thank you to Ron for reading and listening, and also for being patient with my ravings!! Thanks, Marina |
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pegasus111 Member Elite
since 2000-07-27
Posts 2219ocala, fl, usa |
I'll wait to see how it works and what changes are made, if any, to help resolve the obvious differences of opinion. I'm sure we haven't heard the last of this. the woods are lovely, dark, and deep, but I have promises to keep, and many miles to go before I sleep...Frost |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
i agree entirely with insect.I liked the old way best. First of all,thank you's are very important,and they also provided an opportunity to answer any questions from commentors,and i thought the old way was beneficial in keeping conversations going. And i also think that having the opportunity to bump your poem back up was a good thing,poems can be easily missed because they go down to fast. I confess sometimes when i've been away for a day i don't always go back to read things from the day i missed,but when the poet replies with a thank you and zips it back to the top the poem get's another "round" so to speak,then i may see it,and get the chance to reply. That's the method i use with my own poetry.i usually let the poem go until it's at the very bottom before i do a thank you,that way i can do it all in "one whack" and reply to all those who have posted comments in one reply. However,i often find that after doing so i get more comments from people who hadn't spotted it,or were gone. thanks for the chance to share the opinion sammi Do i contradict myself?Very well i contradict myself.I contain multitudes.~walt whitman |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
The reason that I sent you that apology Marina was that I did indeed feel that I had taken you to task far more than perhaps you deserved. . . but, I do feel that you reacted quite strongly for someone who hadn't been here in a while. . . that's my opinon and you or anyone else doesn't have to like it. . . again, I apologize for taking you to task . . . Now then. . . If you would have quoted the rest of my e-mail to you. . . (and I chide myself for not saving a copy of it). . . people would have seen that I said that you were a member, that you'll always be a member no matter what, and that you're entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else. . . including me. . . and I also encouraged you to begin posting more and said that you were missed here, not only by me. . . but by other members of Passions as well. . . you're an excellent writer Marina. . . I've always felt so. . . you've come a long way from your beginnings here at Passions. . . as have we all. . . and it would be a shame to let that gift that you have go to waste just because you don't feel that your writing is being seen by enough people. Let me say something else. . . some of my poetry gets a lot of replies. . . most of it however, gets more moderate amounts. . . do I feel bad because I don't get as many replies as some of the more (for lack of a better word) popular members of Passions? No, I write what I write. . . and if someone likes it, if someone is inspired by it, if someone takes the time to tell me that they've enjoyed it. . . that's all that I need. . . even if no one responded. . . I'm sure that someone will have at least read. . . for there are lots of people here who read, but don't reply. . . and I reply to as many poems as I can. . . I love everything that I read here. . . daily I am moved to tears, laughter, joy, and so many other emotions by the superb and talented writers of this site. . . I feel honored and humbled to be here with them. . . I have learned much from them. . . and I will always be grateful for the lessons that I have taken from them. . . thank you People of Passions!!!!!! And I have never responded to other people first and then myself. . . in fact, I've responded to myself first and then to other people. . .but you know what Marina?. . . it doesn't matter if I did or if I didn't. . . because Passions moves so quickly. . . even if I did post to myself last to put myself on top. . . I didn't stay there long. . . Now then as for your words on my "I am the Heart of Passions attitude". . . let me just say that I love Passions. . . it's a part of me. . . I love the people that I've met here. . . I love the community that we have here. . . I love the poetry that I'm honored and blessed to read here every day. . . I love it as much as anyone else here. . . but probably not as much as Ron. . . if any one person is the "Heart of Passions" it's Ron. . . this is something that he has put his heart, his soul, and his life into. . . and he does it without being paid for it. . . without making us pay for it. . . and with very little fanfare. . . he does it because he knows the power of the written word. . . he does it because it's a part of him, it's his dream. . . he does it because he loves this place and everyone in it. . . and we all know it. . . I am not the heart of Passions. . . I'm just someone that's lucky and blessed to be a part of it. . . as are you. . . and everyone that's ever been here and will be here. . . thank you Ron!! And now. . . having had my say. . . I will leave. . . thanks to Alicat for letting us conduct this discussion here. . .and to Ron for listening and watching. . . thanks also to you Marina, for bringing up this point that has a lot of people talking. . . and for taking the time to respond to me. . . you have my utmost thanks. . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. [This message has been edited by Sven (edited 02-07-2001).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
As I said before, I think this is an important topic. Let's return to it, please, and try not to get side-tracked... |
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Lone Wolf Member Ascendant
since 2000-03-16
Posts 5842Lansing, MI USA |
I for one feel that the new unbump feature is wonderful and I hope we keep it. Why do I think this? Because it puts the focus back where it belongs on the poetry, not on the replies. Now, I agree with Ron that interaction among the membership is a positive thing and is important. But, I do not feel it is more important than the poetry. If I write a poem and it drops to page four with only three replies, then so be it. I am glad that I can thank those people for replying without dropping someone else's post from page one just for the simple reason I wanted to say thank you to three people. If I like a certain poet's writing, then you can bet I will take the time to search the pages and look for their work. Then again, if I want to be sure not to miss anything they write, I will just add that poet to my library. It is simple and hastle free. I do not, however, agree with Parker that Marina's plea to bring back the unbump feature is in the majority. I think many of us, including me, have been reading these discussions and following along silently. God only knows what their opinion really is. I just chose to make mine known here. The only way we'll all know for sure is if we can somehow vote on this. Ron, is there a possibility of voting like we have voted on the main page for the new features we like? Except, make it so that you have to sign in to vote? That way you could ensure only one vote per member is cast and that only members have a say in this. Just a suggestion. Thank you for listening. And I will go on record as saying I agree with Sven!  |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
Well, just to defend myself.... Lone Wolf. I said that there were others that like that feature, but nowhere did I state that it was the majority. For all I really know I'm in the minority, but since I don't have stats who knows. I just know based on the replies that their are members in both camps. So please don't quote me if your going to get it wrong, because I would not make such a blatant fact less remark. Anyway, Ron has spoken… and he made way too much sense as always. I enjoyed being apart of this thread and arguing my point. If I said anything to offend anyone, it was in the heat of the moment, and I apologize if I stepped out of line…… The bump is dead…… long live the bump.  Parker |
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kaile
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146singapore |
hi everyone, i know i declared my departure but i have been lurking every now and then and have been following this thread with interest... i decided to make my opinion known because Lone wolf did and i just thought more voices should be heard? i preferred the bump option...i agree with you, ron that a good poem is sufficient to attract readers on its own merits and that bumping wont be necessary... but in the forums where everything moves rather fast, poetry gets dropped to the fourth or fifth page an hour or so just after you posted it.... personally, i feel no one is going to search hard for my writings if they are on the back pages and bumping just offers me another chance for my writings to be read.... the amount of responses that one gets is rather dependent on whether the person has established good relationships with the fellow poets in pip....i believe some of us have the habit of just responding to our friends or people we have come to know and just ignore the rest, for lack of time or other such reasons.... nothing can feel worse than seeing something you put in a lot of effort into drooping into goodness knows why while something written by a fellow poet recevining lots responses because he/she is popular, has established his/her voice, has formed cliques etc.... its very well to say that people feel embarrassed about bumping their own posts...they are either well loved for their unique brand of poetry(just like you, sven ) or have built up strong ties with others, so they dont have to worry about their posts being relegated to the backwoods...what about struggling poets like me who dont really write awe-inspiring poetry and dont really get to know the poets here personally? if i see my posts in the fourth or fifth pages, do i just ignore them or do i bump them up, hoping for them to be read? i chose the latter because comments are important to me...after all thats why we all write...i understand that improving my poetry will generate me more replies and we are all in the process of striving to better oursleves but does that mean that our writings should not get attention just because they are cliched and amauterish?.... i guess i sound blunt and harsh....i apologise...but though i bump, i do think that i do not manipulate the system..i reply more than i post or i post a new poem in an old thread(now, surely thats a good reason for bumping a thread..so that people may read the second poem ), wary that i take up unnecessary bandwidth....in fact sometimes i just post a second poem under an old thread because i feel insecure about the writing and dont have courage to post it under an entirely new thread....its my humble opinion that moral judgements not be imposed on us bumpers...firstly, people get more responses becuase their friends will read and encourage them...secondly, we all want to be heard, thats all.... i agree with ron though either bump or unbump...no middle option..thats only fair and i believe we virgos always strive to be fair,(LOL, Sven) just a humble opinion and i hope all is well [This message has been edited by kaile (edited 02-08-2001).] |
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Acies
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665Twilight Zone |
Ron -- I see this thread is still going on. Can I make 1 suggestion? here it goes Why don't we allow members to be able to bump their poems only once or once every certain amount of time, just to satisfy everyone. This allows the poet to wait till others have really stopped replying to their post before they reply back. After this, they can only bump it back up again after a certain amount of time. This gives poets the chance to tell others that they have replied back to their questions about his poem, at the same time, it will prevend others who only bump their poems up each and every time out of selfish reasons. I see no changes, wake up in the morning I ask myself, "Is life worth living or should I blast myself" TUPAC SHAKUR |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I think we should keep the suggestions coming and personally, I'd like to see more conversation from more people here..we haven't seen a lot of other members discussing this. So if you know of someone who hasn't put in their 'two cents' please encourage them to do so. And I can imagine some of these suggestions would be difficult to program with this software..hmm? |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
I too would like others to voice there opinion on this issue. It is a very important issue, as Ron has pointed out and obiviously I am not the only one who would like to know just where people stand. Passions in Poetry is a very interactive site. If people did not want to know if they were read and what people thought of their poetry, this site would be no different then any other. THIS is what makes Passions unique and why poets desire to post here. It is because of this interaction with other poets that I post here, as appose to any other place. In other words, I like to know if I am read, what do people think of my writing, how can I improve (C.A.), and just as importantly, I enjoy reading and responding to other poets. To me, these are the very reasons to post in Passions. The very reason that I enjoy the "bump" feature. I would very much like to see Passions remain a desirable and preferred place for poets. So please everyone tell us what YOU are thinking. Thank you again, Marina |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
I agree deVine. . . we need to see more points of view on this. . . thanks to kaile for his response. . . he brought up some very good points. . . Okay "Silent Voices of Passions". . . we'd like to hear what you think. . . Please step forward. . . Thanks, Sven ---------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
My personal opinion - bump or unbump Passions WILL always remain the ONLY poetry/prose forum on the internet that has HEART! |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
i agree with acire,some kind of middle ground would be nice if that's possible and i have no idea what IS possible,but i think somthing that gave the poet an option on whether or not to bump their poem(without looking like a heal) would be handy dandy. As for the argument that thank you's and comments detract from the main focus which is poetry,well i think that's a bit unreasonable....When i think about the forums i think poetry,"i'm going to go read lots of poetry" i have never been know to say " i'm going to go read everyone's comments to poetry,but i really don't think i'll read much poetry". That doesn't really jive,i mean the forums are here for poetry,and if i'm not mistaken everyone seems to know that. The option to comment is just an under lying facet to the poetry,and i do think it's quite important. Again thanks for the chance to share an opinion. swamp Do i contradict myself?Very well i contradict myself.I contain multitudes.~walt whitman |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I had put my two cents [and some change] in other forums....and have received e-mails about this very matter....as the very second post in this thread, one can see that I was not advocating aliases as a means to bump one's own poems. I go back to the "Thanks!" To that I will add "dusting off". E.g.: A poet posts what is a really, really good poem, however, picks the busiest time of day. The poem gets, 1, 2 or 3 replies, then gets buried. The poet in the meantime has taken a day or two off and is away from Passions! [I don't know how THAT could happen, but I have heard of some folks taking cruises and the like....gasp!] The poet comes back to do a search to thank folks after a week or two...and the post is buried somewhere on page 26, 37 or 41, depending on how one has their page counter set. WOW...s/he has received some really wonderful comments, and would like to reply in one gesture to those who commented. In one gesture means not having to reply to each and every poet who responded by e-mail. Uh-oh....no BTTT for that poet! MAYBE the response will be seen in Today's topics [towards the bottom]. Well, better than nothing. BUT...to me, my thank yous are very important. I noticed a long time ago that it was rude of me to try to reply to each and every post as it was given [not to mention time-consuming]. So I learned to wait till 3, 4, 5 or more comments were made, or in some instances, a day or so....to see if the poem would revive on its own. If it did not of its own accord get noticed, I took it that the poem was a dud [I can write duds, believe me!] In the very beginning, yes, a dud even got bumped back up by me, just to see if it was really duddy, or just needed a dusting off....and either people were just truly taking pity on a pathetic poet....or simply because of the nature of Passions, it was missed the first go around. Now, when I have time, I'm a duster. I see a poem that is sitting on page 26 with a zero or a one! I go in to check and wow...if I'm swept away, I'm wondering why this little critter isn't back on top. So I bump! I've been known to bump especially good pieces of poetry back up, even if they have had a good number of replies....perhaps it is because that particular poem needs to be seen by someone....or even a better reason, just because! I know that once the new features hit at the beginning of February, I was asking Ron right off the bat "how come when I respond I'm not moving back up?" Well, I've tried very, very hard to get use to it. This is Ron's house, Ron's rules [for the good of all] and yes, I would like to see the bump go back in for nothing else but to acknowledge the responders....and in that regard, [if you have read this far] I would also ask ALL PiP members to let your poem accumulate a few responses before jumping back in....just so everyone can have their chance at the number one spot for more than a few moments.... we can leave the Alley and/or other member forums for the ping-pong games that we sometimes partake in. Whew! Thanks! |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
Okay...Okay.. I've been quiet, but since you need those silent voices, I'll be saying my piece now. I LIKE the unbump feature. A few have been running around here acting as if no one would possibly ever consider abusing the "BUMP" method that we had before. Reality check. There ARE people who abused and would still abuse it. I like it simply because it makes the ones who once abused it not be able to abuse it anymore. I think if everyone has to work a little harder to find their poetry and thank the ones who have replied, then everyone shall just have to work a little harder. Ron has worked hard on this move and all the new features, and I'm sure he had his reasons for creating the "Unbump". I trust Ron and his knowledge of what goes on around here, and in his ability to know what is best for these forums. If he chooses to do away with the "unbump" then it will ultimately be his own decision, although I am sure he will consider as many people's opinions as he can. I'd like to add that we do have a fantastic Search ability now. I'm sure that can be useful in locating posts. That is how I locate my own if they fall to where I can't see them. On the issue of creating another user name just to bump up your own poetry, I don't think it is a good idea. Now....Only read what you're seeing...I said that creating another name simply for the use of bumping/thanking/etc is not a good idea. A lot of people here have multiple user names, but I don't think many of them created them for raising their poetry to the top. Thats all for now.. *Jenn* [This message has been edited by Temptress (edited 02-08-2001).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
As some of the 'old-timers' can tell you, way back when there were 2 forums, one for discussion of a poem, and the other for how the poem made you feel, with regards to the poetry posted on the main Passions site (been there lately?). Then, when the first model of these present forums was created by this absolutely wonderful feller in Michigan, again Feelings was for how a poem impacted you, though that quickly changed, for the better, I feel. Perhaps I was one of those poets who would post during busy times or something, for regardless of the actual merit of the piece, more often than not, after a day or even a few hours sometimes, I would have to trawl the forum to find it, usually after page 10. Perhaps, too, I'm still too 'old-school', recalling other boards where 5 replies was very very good, and more than that phenomenal (anyone remember Open Scroll before the rot set in?). And in my more cynical moments, I would think it a conspiracy of chronic bumpers to relegate my work to the darkest dustiest corners as quickly as humanly possible. Now, I know this wasn't actually the case (I think) but it happened, more often than not. With bumping, or course, doing such automatically displaces someone else's work. Replies from others are one thing, but replies from self? And no, I'm not saying that thank-you's are a bad thing, far from it. It's nice to thank someone, or to go back and see what they thought of your reply. But personally, I always had to think about it: Is my thanking others more important than the work my thanks will be displacing? Does basic courtesy justify nudging someone else from the lime-light? Of course there's the possibility that someone else will reply to that topic just bumped down, bringing it back up to the top, but such is not always the case. Then there are those who do not feel their poem received the attention they thought it deserved. Can any of you honestly say 'My poem is so much better than that one there, so it's quite alright to move it elsewhere?' When you reply to your own piece which didn't meet your personal quota, that is exactly what you're doing, by design or not. For these reasons, and a few others, I prefer the un-bump. And before anyone decides to take me to task, please know that the above statements and situations are not targetted towards any specific person. Pax Poeticus Alicat “It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” Charles Darwin |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
If one of the complaints is about the 'fast moving' poetry dropping from the first page, then if the way poems are lined up is slowed down, would that make you happy? Let's call it the unbump! In fact, that's what happens. If you look at the Open Forum page, you will see who's poetry is being read. If you look at Today's Topics, you'll see what the OLD way looked like..in there, even replies to your own poetry bump it to the top. |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
BUMP for President  vote for BUMP at your nearest voting booth. Just to comment on abuse… Temptress… the sweet poet that you are…  Here’s a reality check for you dear… removing the bump feature is not going to stop abusers. Like you said people have alias’s and some keep them completely secret… right Dr. Freud. the abusers will use this loop hole. That said I’m sure they will be a very small subset, nothing really to worry about. But abusers will find way’s. Here’s a trick for you… your private library put your own username in it with a large number of posts and you won’t have to go searching for your own poems anymore. Just click private library and presto, no searching. Just to comment on Ron’s big reply…. Its hard to argue against most of it, so I’ll make this feeble Attempt at something… quote:RonI think this comparason of the bump to buying your own book, is just a little off in my opinion.. I see the bump more liking to going to the book store to do book signings and to help get your hard work read. quote:RonI think that not everybody that wants a response is doing it for popularity, (although a few may) Some people think if there is no response in their poem, then its either not liked or was not read. But, I would surmise that most do it just to be read, the reason we post here. Well, that’s all I got to say about Ron’s reply…. He’s tough to argue with, even his spelling is Flawless… Alicat: I just want to make a quick comment on your reply too…. We seem to keep coming back to this argument that replying and bumping your own poem Displaces others… But, isn’t the reality that all type of bumping does this, or even posting a new Poem. Who’s to say that my new poem should even get posted, why should it be allowed to Displace another. I could have written a really lousy piece (I have many times) This lousy piece is going to displace a really good poem. So anyway I just think this argument on displacement is maybe a little weak. If we consider your argument, you may reply to a poet your familiar with.. but the poem, (say my lousy poem) isn’t good at all. Why should your reply to my poem bump it up and displace another better one. Why, should you have that ability? Anyway this is my angle on it…. Just to be fair. Poet deVine, I just tested the today’s topics with a reply to my post in Q&A and it does not get bumped to the top of todays topics but instead goes to the bottom of the area its from in todays topics, but it does display their none the less which is great. Now For a commercial break…. BUMP for President vote for BUMP today. Vote for BUMP he’s your man Vote for BUMP better then spam Why BUMP is your man…… -if your feeling down Bump will perk you up again -Walk into the party with Bump and even strangers will say Hey! -Bump goes good with bop.. -You can always have Bump in the middle of the night -If you’ve missed all your friends Bump will call to tell them your home -You’ll never feel alone with Bump at your side -Bump is a nice way of saying thanks to your friends -You can also share Bump with your friends. -Bump will give you lower taxes…. (well, it’s what all the other politicians say) This Advertisement is brought to you by the friends of BUMP BUMP for President vote for BUMP today. Why BUMP is better then girlfriends or boyfriends…. er.. ah… oops wrong forum.  Parker… wants Bump.. (ok, ladies that’s your que )[This message has been edited by Haleyja (edited 02-09-2001).] |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Coming back in to state that after watching for a while - I am still very much in favor of any original poet being able to 'bump' their own work. *Sharon, you said - quote: If I interpreted your statement correctly, that simply is not the case at all. (at least not on my computer) Nothing at the moment 'bumps' a poem to the top, except a reply from someone other than the originating poet. In Today's Topics, not only does a response from the originating poet not bump the poem - the time visibly displayed in the Last Post column only reflects the time someone other than the originating poet posted a response. Am I incorrect in my observations ? Or am I incorrect in my interpretation of your post ? *This is a very interesting subject of differing opinions. Thanks for reading mine. It will be even more interesting to see what the eventual outcome will be. ~*Marge*~ |
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Ryan Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 297Kansas |
I just read what Marge said about the Today's Topics page, and decided to check it out. I found poems that were active, and whose last response was by the author, yet the time given on the Today's Topics page was for the last non-authors comment (Does that make sense?). This makes me curious. If the only response to a poem during "today" is by the author, is it still considered active? It's also this way in the forums. I've gone into CA at once, and seen the little star saying there are new posts, but there isn't a single new post listed in the forum. I guess you could use the private library, but it seems that for some people, there could be so many threads they want to track of (and of course, more coming up everyday) that soon their library would become bloated and weighed down (also there's something about the library I just don't like...call it a hunch, but I get the feeling it's eeeeevil *grins*). And if anything, I think that the "bump" (this is starting to sound so cliche to me now...it's become a term like email) should be allowed in the discussion forums. These forums often have a lot of bantering and discussions (obviously, hence the name discussion forums) that often include the author. The author is not just thanking others for posts here, but making a worthwhile contribution to the discussion. It's a completely different story here. Ryan (Alicat, I remember that place called the Scroll, a nice place it was) "ah, little girls make shadows on the sidewalk shorter than the shadow of death in this town--" - Jack Kerouac |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
I'm going to make another one of my weird analogies.....so bear with me......There are people who abuse alchohol,but does that mean that everyone should not be allowed to drink? There are people who abuse the bump feature,but does that mean the feature should be banished? Kind of like the whole class "suffering" (yes that's a bit to strong isn't it?) for one trouble maker. And as those who have been through high school already should know......the trouble maker will ALWAYS find a way...no matter what!! Okay ow that wasn't TOO strange was it?? sam Do i contradict myself?Very well i contradict myself.I contain multitudes.~walt whitman |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Awwww......my 2 cents got deleted I'll be back when I have something intelligent to say...well, it could happen!  I feel so out of control without the bump  Really, I do. I liked having that power Really, I did. But I think I could get used to the unbump...change doesn't come easy for me but I can see a benefit to it...I can see both points of view, actually. It is messing up the time displays, though...there is a later time listed on the main forum list than what actually is showing up once you enter a forum...for example......11:52 listed on the main forum page for The Corner Pub (just an example) but when you click into the Pub the last listed post is 10:30 (?)No post or reply corresponding to 11:52, by anyone (?) [This message has been edited by Denise (edited 02-09-2001).] |
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Paula Finn Member Ascendant
since 2000-06-17
Posts 5546missouri |
OK...we all know people abuse the system...if you pay real close attention you can see it being abused even without the bump... I said this before...no one can force you to read a poem...and its very easy to push someone down to oblivion if you choose to...just because I reply to my own poem doesnt mean anyone else is ever gonna read it again...sure by replying I push someone else down...but so does posting a new poem...like Parker said...is that new poem BETTER than the one it displaced? No...is it more worthy of being number one? No again...but thast what happens... I post very early in the morning...I reply to lots of poems...thereby putting some on top...and pushing others down...and I dont always have a lot of free time to spend. I just like being able to highlight poems by putting them back on top...not just my own...and why is it fair to be able to do that? I mean...I could choose one or two poets and by replying to their poetry keep them on top...forcing other poets down... I have grown as a poet since I joined Passions...a big part of that process has been from reading and replying to what others thought of my poems...the more who read them...the more opinions I saw...the stronger and more confident I became in my ability to touch someone with my thoughts... Ive had poems that just drifted away...thats fine...but there have been those that when I replied and moved it back to the top...touched so many more hearts...and I LOVE that...I LOVE that chance to ease an ache, to make someone laugh, to cry, to think... I dont think I abuse the system...my own responses are NEVER half or more of the total responses to a post...LOL unless it only recieved one response...but you know what? Again what difference does it make? YOU choose who you read...not the position the poem is on the board...and YES thats an arguement either way...I just like the bump BUMP FOR PRZ!!!! LOL PARKER |
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Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
I like the unbump. And that's all I have to say. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Um....what Parker said is what I had wanted to say but I get so wrapped up in what I'm saying I forget to sometimes sound INTELLIGENT.... so from now on when there is a discussion, I'll just wait for Parker to post and then probably "ditto" it... unless Christopher adds something really neat, I might ditto his too.... great discussion, folks! Now, back to being a wallflower.... |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
My 98 thousands cents worth (in $NZ of course - essentially worthless then lol.) I like the Bump on a personal level. I'm one of those hang-out-to-the-last-second-then-thank-people persons... all in a nice big long list where I pretty much bump my poem up once. Now with the Unbump I honestly don't think people are really going to read my replies anymore. I hardly post any poetry at the moment. So, on a personal level I guess Bump is great because it puts a long forgotten poem lol at the top for a little while so all those people can see the replies I made - IF they happen to be around while the poem is on the first couple of pages. Here is an example of how frustrating the Unbump is for me right now. My last poem garnered around 20 replies...then sank. I was busy yadda yadda didn't do the reply thing. The next day my h/d crashed...spit boo hiss... Then I of course did the whole plane trip thing. Now my leetle poem is sunk so far into the depths it almost no POINT going and replying. IN FACT I had completely forgotten about it until having a serious read of this discussion. Even if I had written the replies the day after I arrived the poem would still have been on page 10090 (if you get my meaning lol.) So - if I reply now - who's going to know? Who will read the thankyou's I give? NO ONE I honestly believe. And I just feel damn rude. I might in this case go and personally email people - but it's been so long they have all likely forgotten anyway hehe. Personally - I post so few and far inbetween now that I guess I will have to monitor it closely and change my thankyou habit so that I post a separate reply to nearly every person. Not my preference, but then people will likely see my thanks. Blah blah blah. However...I appreciate the issues raised on a general level. Overall, the Unbump WILL mean less replies per person. This WILL likely ensure more poems are read. I like that idea. I have watched Open in the last few months and I haven't liked what I have seen. I might offend some people with this next comment but oh well it's my opinion. Frankly, I haven't liked what I have seen Open turn into. IMHO, It evolved into a great big giant MUSH house. So saccharine sweet I stopped feeling that my style of poetry AND replies were welcome, or fitted in. I don't write loving tributes to all or sundry or about how great everything is. That is not me. I don't write glowing replies that overflow with positivity. I try to be absolutely honest - and I am a critical person when it comes to poetry. So more often than not I felt like my 'this is good work, I like it' really almost sounded negative. There is such a huge turnover there and I too noticed unknowns or 'different' types of poetry sinking away. So, on the rare times I venture into Open I focus on replying to - yes, my friends, unknowns and those who write 'differently.' The Unbump is an excellent feature I believe for ensuring a fair rate of drop and exposure for all types of poetry. I hope that as a result of it personal conversations that go on in the threads can occur without those jumping up to the top constantly and knocking down the poems that slide away with few replies. I love that passions is my home, and I could never deny how much the friendships mean to me - I mean look at me! In America MEETING people from this place. However, mush I do not enjoy and neither do I enjoy the thought of new poets getting a huge response on their first poem due to the blinking envelope who then watch their next poems dribble away. I do hope the Unbump will help to remedy that somewhat. SO I guess over all - the Unbump just has to stay. And I'll just have to say thankyou individually to people ~sulk~  K[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 02-09-2001).] |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
quote: I always go back to see if the author has responded to a reply that I gave. No matter how long it's been or where the poem is. . . I don't know if I'm the only one, and again, I'm speaking for myself. (and we all know how strange I am anyway. . . )Anyone else?? And tell us why you do it. I do it just because I like to see what the author says back to me. . . even if it's just a "Thank you for reading". And another general question, not directed at anyone or anyone's situation or anything like that, just a question to keep the discussion going. (I shouldn't have to say that, but sometimes, it's necessary) Is it too much effort to use "Today's Topics" and to put things in "Private Library" and to just use the other features that are built into the system rather than having the poem bumped up? I look forward to more discussion on this. ---------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. [This message has been edited by Sven (edited 02-09-2001).] |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
Before Parker starts another commercial I would like to respond to these comments...============================================= And another general question, not directed at anyone or anyone's situation or anything like that, just a question to keep the discussion going. (I shouldn't have to say that, but sometimes, it's necessary) No you shouldn't have to say this, but let's face it. There are those who are whinner then others and those who "suck-up" more then others, now aren't there. ( I shouldn't have to say that, but sometimes it is necessary) ============================================= Is it too much effort to use "Today's Topics" and to put things in "Private Library" and to just use the other features that are built into the system rather than having the poem bumped up? Maybe it is and maybe it's not. Those features are great features and no doubt a lot of members use them. I personally don't. Not because I don't find them useful or easier, but because I choose not too. When I log on to Passions I go directly to Open. I scroll down the page and look at everything with the little red box. This tells me what is new since I last logged on. If I want to look at any other forum, I will know if something is new or some post has been responded to because it has the little shining star. I only use the "Private Library" when I come across a poem which I have so enjoyed I wish to keep it. I have very few poets in my Library collection. Although I have certain poets which I make sure not to miss a single post, not all of what they post I may want to keep. For instance, If they have posted a question or in C.A., most likely I don't feel the need to keep it. Personally, I find it so much easier to just look at what has been responded too by looking quickly at what has the red box to indicate this. Fast and simple. Then when I respond to my own post, back to the top and whamo! New little red box for all to see. As far as using the other features instead of the "bump", well that would stand to reason that they all don't have bearing on the "bump or unbump" feature. Each of us here are individuals, and as such we "use" Passions features differently. What I do when I log on will be beyond a doubt different then someone else. So in saying that, is it fair for you to say: Is it too much effort to use "Today's Topics" and to put things in "Private Library"....ect... Marina And now for that commercial break... Hey, how about a Spam one?? |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
Well, it looks like Marina, beat me to the punch here, damn I’m such a slow writer….. lol quote:svenConsidering you high post count, you must be a superman to keep track of all your replies Mr. Sven., and no matter how long its been you will go back and check constantly waiting for them to thank you. Some poets never respond to the people, who comment on their good work…. It must take allot of time keeping track of these, cause they might one day…. Your right your strange. lolquote:svenAs you can see with this thread its moving along very well on its own, so we don’t have to worry about the discussion dying a quick death. But, thanks for bio informing question on this. Its an Interesting insight into Sven methodologies. I myself like to put a little related humor into a topic if I can, just to keep things a little light. quote:sven I still, noticed that Today’s topics can grow to a considerable size, by 5:00 PM, and my LAN connection to the internet loads it up fairly slow. I know my phone line connection is even slower. Based on responses I got to my recital poem on load times via phone…. I’d bet this will be a little annoying to some in the evening. For these large page sizes or 200 plus poems in today’s topics in the evening, I think cable or a fast LAN connection makes them a little better. Also loading up yesterdays topics, is even slower, because it has all the poems and allot of duplicates that you have to sort through to find difference. Just an observation here. I have a concern about the UN-bump and something Severn brought up. One of my fears is that the sink down process may affect new or lesser known poets more severally. The more well known and popular poets will get replies and be searched out by the regulars and then replied to and thus this bump will push them down to a quicker lesser read death. Its unlikely that all or most poets are going to scan continually for new or lesser known poets….. and you can’t do a search of somebody new if you don’t know their username or are unfamiliar with their work. The only way to find them on other pages is to manually scan through each page. Unless they reply and then appear in today’s topics at the bottom. So in trying to make the unbump fair, we may just be relegating them to oblivion and only pure luck and diligent scanning by Sven will ever find them to bring them back to life…. Well, at least all is not lost, Sven to the rescue. I apologize if it seems like I’m picking on you Sven, just adding a little humor to this thread and it was just done in fun. Don’t want that armor you wear to get too shiny.  Parker |
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ATelamon Member
since 2001-02-06
Posts 328Purgatory, Last Staircase, Up |
Interesting read... [This message has been edited by ATelamon (edited 02-09-2001).] |
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Jesse Jaymz Senior Member
since 2000-01-24
Posts 708Youngstown, ohio |
ok i would say i am throwing my 2 cents in here but i did that one page one. so would this make this my 4 cents?? anyway. i see alot of this falling along the same lines. the popular more established poets like the un bump and the less popular ones dont. now thats not enterly true. but it is seeming to fall that way. there are people like paula finn, marge, and others that are very popular and like the bump. alot of us either dont have the time to search and search. or get on at odd times and our stuff gets burried. like me i would love to post in open. and i started to before the unbump. but now i am very leary to cuz it moves way to fast. perfect example. i just replyed to a poem in open. and then i went to post a poem there. i posted it and the poem i replyed to was 8 posts down already. it only took me 5 mins tops to post. and alot of posts get burried. plus i too tried useing that todays topics. and it moved really slow on this line. and it wasnt very conveinite. i know i cant spell. but it brought up stuff and forums i didnt even know we had. i didnt like it. so before this turns into a rammble i will end this. thanks for listening to me yall. and long live the bump jesse True beauty is often hidden in darkness... |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Marge! I tested the Today's Topics thingie and I was wrong in my earlier post! Though last week, I was sure it showed up on top. I replied to the first poem I wrote in Open 12 and though it bumped it to the bottom of the list of Today's Topics it still had the time from the LAST reply other than mine..so...you were right. Glad I took the time to recheck it! Thanks, Marge. Now, I'm going to sit back and keep my mouth shut! LOL |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
LOL! Parker, Thanks for being gentle! I think you've got a case of mistaken identity. See, this is not Mr. Bump this is Mr. Bounce, and he is the leader of my empire of the little green bouncy thingys...Geesh...And I thought I cleared that up from the beginning! oh well..some people just never learn! Soo..Anyway.. You have a point. As I said there are people out there with other aliases that we don't know about who also abuse the system. Although I said I didn't think ALL of them abused it, I can assure you I'm not gullible enough to think that none of them abuse it. (did that make sense? LOL! I do have a migraine here) Geesh..a girl can hope can't she? As for finding my poetry, I like reading now more than I do writing (or at least posting writing), and its healthy for me to have to search for my poems the hard way because sometimes back there on those pages, I find excellent poetry that I missed at one time or another. Thats not for everyone though. I understand that. Thats all again for now. I'd like to add that so far no one has really been at each other's throats about this in an irritable fashion (not unless I've missed something), and I like that about this discussion! Now I'm off to conference with my assasins to find someone to take care of that pesky little bump guy who wants all the votes. Laters! |
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dgvarner Member Elite
since 2000-05-13
Posts 3552High Springs, Florida |
i'm with jessejaymes on the inconvenience issue...when i'm in open, i dont want to have to go to another forum to search for things...i want to be able to find them where i am..without having to go thru ALL the pages till i FINALLY find it because of that darned unbump feature having been set in....why forum hop..i just dont have the time with a 2 yr old running around..passions is part of my sanity..i dont want it to turn into my stress because i have to spend all my time searching for things...and as far as putting things in the private library--i think it was ryan who mentioned the whole bloat and explode thing..(i know, i probably didnt quote it quite right..sorry..but you get the point..) i dont need anything EXTRA in my library..thats where i put my "special interest" stuff..and certain poets that i like not to miss ANY of their stuff.. and i have another question while i'm here..(this will probably get deleted too...) how come parker gets to cut up and make jokes in this thread and i get deleted when i make jokes...jeez!! LOL (enjoyed the commercial breaks by the way, parker..lol) |
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Poeminister Senior Member
since 2000-02-26
Posts 1862Regina SK; Canada |
I too hope bump will be put back. I think its a matter that we just need to make sure not to over-bump ourselves the same as making sure not to over-post in the forums, if we follow that like a rule, things could be fine with the bump. Poeminister [This message has been edited by Poeminister (edited 02-10-2001).] |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
I have been following this thread all along with much interest ... so many valid points ... so many different opinions ... so much to think about. Particularly Ron's posts of reason and explanation. I don't think there will or can be a right or wrong choice on the subject of "bump Vs unbump" I also don't think that there will ever be a way for complete fairness and equal footing for all. Thats life...reality ... so we try to find a middle or common ground and compromise. I too feel that there has been a bit too much focus on the thank you replies, the expectation that we must take the time to write out longer witty thanks yous... When I first came here that was not the norm ... a polite group thank you was more than acceptable ... now we (myself included) apologize when we don't have time to do individual thanks ... Please don't get me wrong....I love the interaction and the one on one contact, but it can get time consuming and involved, and frankly its time that could be used to reply to more poetry...of other poets. I also think that we are putting too much emphasis on the number of replies ... and being "popular" ... Personally I would rather see the focus be on the reply itself ... its quality..not the final count of quantity.... I would rather have less replies over all in trade for replies that really focus on the poem, Like Severn pointed out ... I prefer (and this of course is me speaking for only me) ... to have replies that mention the structure, or cadence or rhyme scheme, that critique and notice the work and effort that went into the writing of the poem. I TRY to always include something like that in my replies... while encouraging and complimenting. That's how we learn and grow ... that's the point or goal to me...to keep growing... BUT yes....encouragement is always a positive thing....we just cant learn much from "nice poem." BUT, in the end ... time dictates all of our participation and that's why I say we will never really ALL be on Equal ground ... because in here it comes down to time...and participation ... That is why I have somewhat of a concern with the statement of: ----------------------------------- "Those who are seeking higher number, who are seeking popularity, have a very simple solution, one that is on an equal footing with every other Member - you need but write better, more popular poetry." ------------------------------------ I dont know if that is a fair assessment ... Higher numbers and popularity don't always come from "better" poetry....those things come from higher level of participation in the forums..more replies to other peoples work ... Some of us have or make more time for here ... but there are many who don't due to their busy life, work and family obligations and other interests .... I don't know if its fair to say writing better poetry will get you higher numbers ... I see OUTSTANDING poetry in here everyday by "quiet" lesser known poets..fall away sometimes hardly touched ... because for what ever reason, they don't do many replies ... A perfect example of this would be our esteemed Michael Anderson (please forgive me for using you M, without asking) ... Michael's life has changed and he at this time does not have the time to spend here as much as he once did....his posts once got the numbers of a "popular poet" ... now in a huge forum with so many new people his name is not as recognized ... does that mean he needs to "write better poetry." I don't think so.... his work is undisputedly some of the finest to ever be posted ... It all comes back to participation ... the more you reply to others...the more your work is going to get read ... for those who cant "live here daily" as some of us do... its going to be harder to have equal footing. That's the reality of Passions ... I personally think the changes and "bump" is a loss ... these forums have grown so much ... and we have so many posts and forums to read in, no one can keep up anymore ... for the lesser known poets bringing their work back up with an occasional thanks will be the only way their work will get a chance to be seen.... There are just too many posts to keep track of now ... And honestly ....I can only think of a small handful of times when I saw the thank yous being "abused" to keep posts at the top" and I don't believe many of them do it deliberately .. they don't realize till someone tells them ... so wouldn't an E-mail from a moderator or Administrator be a way to put a stop to the abusers or help teach a new member who intentions are only to be polite? Rather than take the feature away from those who used it in the fair way? many things come into play here... Poet ego being one ... some people will not read someone else who does not reply to them ... and in a now way too busy forum that's understandable ... Naturally we are going to use our time here to reply to the ones who take the time to reply to us...so again...those with less time here....lose the equal footing ... Those of us who have more time will read the poets who might not reply back... Personally If I like a certain poets style and know when I read his or her work I will be "blown away" ... I will read their every post and try to reply ... whether or not they regularly read me... BUT common respect and courtesy should be returned once in a while ... RESPECT should be the key word. So have I proven that we need to control the destiny of our own posts ??.. NO I'm sure I haven't ... Im not sure anyone can ..I think its simply coming down to a matter of opinion and so there shouldn't be a wrong or right. What's fair? I don't know if anyone will agree on that either ... but I also know that for a lot of poets... the thank you bump .. DONE with moderation and respect and NOT poet ego ...is going to be the only way to be seen in too fast moving Open ... But if the "unbump" rule stays... then I would like to see the folders or posts be in some way be marked to show a thank you reply.... because I don't wish to go searching for the many in a day I reply to ..to find them..that is time away from replying to others ... and I don't think I should have to fill my library with the 20-40 or more poems that I sometimes reply to in a day. Please correct me if I am wrong on any points here and if I have misread or misunderstood anyone's points. We can learn from our mistakes ... and I make lots of them thank you for your time.... and the opportunity to voice an opinion. Thank you also to the several poets who wrote (from both sides of this issue).. and asked me to participate, I am grateful my opinion matters. Please forgive my inability to be brief.It's a gift I have not yet received. take care JM [This message has been edited by Janet Marie (edited 02-10-2001).] |
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rosepetals25
since 2000-05-31
Posts 3076PA |
I just had to stop in and give my view point on this topic. I realize that I will probably end up repeating what many others have said already so bare with me. I will try to keep in short and to the point. The reasons I don't like the new "unbump" feature are because poems get over looked way to easily. The newer poets won't have stand a chance with all the posting that goes on in the Open Forum. And I like to thank the people who reply to my poetry, and I like to think that they see them. I also like to read the responses to the poems that I reply to. At this time I am only capable of using a computer once a week.. and I know I will forget certain poems that I want to go back to.. and to take the time to go looking for the poems 10 pages back.. and try to keep up with the new poetry.. I would have to be at this library all day! lol. I don't know. Maybe it is just that I don't like change and I'm stubborn in my ways.. but I like the old way of doing things. It just seems easier to me. |
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Mark Bohannan Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-21
Posts 7269In the winds of Cherokee song |
I have to confess that when the move happened, I was happy to see the unbump feature for a number of personal reasons. First off, I don't like to keep bumping my own poems at all and I sure don't like to increase the number of posts to it by replying too often with my thanks. I typically will wait until I have at least ten or fifteen replies to one of my poems just so that it doesn't seem as if I am trying to keep it on top. I also don't like to have more than one poem up at a time to close to the top and with the bump there were times when I would type my thank you's and by the time I posted them I found someone had brought up one of my old ones. I could never complain about the number of reads I get as I get more than my fair share. My poet ego of course would like to think that all of them are because my poems are good enough to get that many but in reality I know that some of them are because of friendships or alliances formed. Either way, you won't ever find me complaining about that. I hold off on posting a new poem until I believe my last one has died off and many times I have waited days to do so. I just don't like to see more than one of mine at a time. I prefer to read more than post anyway. That is how I learn and that is also how I unwind from my day. *************** Now for the kicker.......there are those that have multiple identities that will of course fight the unbump feature by bringing up their own poems in another name just to give it light. I don't believe there is any way of stopping this without punishing the ones that act with responsibly short of individually contacting the abusers and asking them to practice a little fairness to the others. I know there are legitimate reasons for some poets to have more than one name and I am glad that option is left open for us though I don't believe I will ever use it. The real concern here is just plain out politeness or rudeness. For a handful of poets to purposely abuse the system by replying to their own post in an alias to prove a point is ruining the system for the rest of us. We all know that it can be done, so why bump your friends down unfairly just to prove a point. That is where the system falls apart and for that reason I am now in the mindset that the bump should be brought back ONLY if there is no way to control the abusers. It may be the only salvation for the poets who try to play by the rules of fairness but are shoved aside by those who would rather see their name at the top than to read and reply to the ones they say they are trying to protect by protesting the unbump. I do see a need for something to let us know that an originating poet has replied in thanks short of trying to remember how many posts were on it when it was last on top and then trying to notice the one added number in the middle of a page. I would like to see the time posted just as it is when someone else replies and that would make it easy to spot most of the time when we read down the page and see a time out of whack with the one above and below it. Simple solution to knowing without clicking on it but it won't stop the poem from being buried by the heavy posters and abusers. Just my two cents worth. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Without the bump, don't you think the lesser known/lesser read poets are now on page one longer? |
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Mark Bohannan Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-21
Posts 7269In the winds of Cherokee song |
Yes I do....and I like that feature as long as we find a way to control the abuse of the system by the ones that want to prove their point by blatently burying the poets who participate fairly. As I said........before the abuse started I was enjoying the non bump feature tremendously.....I still do but I see a need for some sort of fix to salvage the original intent of it. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I certainly hope so Sharon. |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
Just a quick response to deVine... the number of replies to your own poetry is usually allot less then other people replying. So the reality is that allowing the bump by other replies will just bump up other poems and push down that new poets poem at a faster rate then an author bump. This is a fact it can't be disputed. There are a minor few that will reply to their own poetry as much as they get replies from others but they are in the minority. New poems cause the new poets to disappear, Frequent poem additions by regular poets cause a new poem to disappear, Replies to a popular poem cause new poems to disappear. Unless we just reply to a new poets poem its going down. Authors replying to their own poem and bumping it up are not the only culprits of this dastardly deed. If you reply to a popular poem, or a poem other then a new poets poem, you are pushing new poems down. You… you wicket person you. How dare you. We all contribute to poem movement by our replies, more so then the author. Compare as many poems as you want. The numbers are their, its verifiable, it’s a fact, bumping by other poets then the author to his own poem is more frequent. So we really can’t just blame the author for this whole controversy. I put a suggestion in the suggestion forum…. I don’t know if it’s a good one. I know its probably possible. But, don’t know how much work it would be for Ron…. Its just simply choosing the display order of the poems. This would give each poet the option of seeing author bumped poems or not, or even just seeing poems as they come in. But, I don’t know if Ron likes the idea or if its too much work for him. But, it gives everyone the choice and eliminates the controversy. /pip/Forum19/HTML/000118.html Parker [This message has been edited by Haleyja (edited 02-11-2001).] |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
Now your beating me to a response Parker!  What Parker basically said was part of what I was going to say. However, I have something else to add. (as usual!) Yesterday as I was just logging out, I noticed a poet post a new poem which I was interested in reading because the title caught my eye. Being as I had something else I needed to do, I decided to log out and read it when I returned later in the day. On my return, I went into Today's Topic to find this poem. Easy enough right? After all that is why it is here. Well after looking through Open 12 Today's Topic's, It was nowhere to be found. So I naturally thought I must have missed it, so I searched again. It simply just wasn't there. So I had to go into Open 12 and search all the way through it till I found it. I found it alright and it had replies to it from earlier that day. So how did Today's Topic save me time?? Shouldn't this poem have been listed?? This is why I normally don't use Today's Topic's because I have noticed that not all poems show up on the list. Now since that poet was the last to respond, I would have very easy found it on page one if the "bump" was still in place. To me this is just another reason for the "bump" to be returned. If Todays Topic doesn't always work, how is this means of finding a poem useful??? As far as I can tell, the people who are against the "bump" feature returning are those who feel it is abused. I have no doubt at all that there are some people who do this. But, aren't these people in the minority as Parker said?? I believe that they most certainly are. I believe that no one here at Passions can disagree that those abuser aren't that significant that we need to change an ENTIRE FEATURE just for them. Wouldn't an e-mail from a moderator or even from fellow poet remind them that to bump their poetry for the sake of a bump to the top, is NOT what Passions is about and certainly WOULD be shunned upon by fellow poets?? I believe that the people who post here wouldn't be foolish enough to continue to abuse the system after a reminder such as that. Especially if people no longer post to their poetry because of their need to BEND Passions rules just to suit them. Even though it is an "unwritten rule". I don't like having my small pleasures in life turned up side down to eliminate a very small percentage of people who abuse our system. As of this post, we have 4,896 members. I don't believe for one moment that out of this number we have such a high number of poets who are abusing the system. Why should those who respect other Passions poets have to have a feature removed?? Marina |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Define "abuse," Marina. From my first post in this thread: " The new unbump feature was implemented so no one need feel guilty for saying thank you and otherwise keeping the dialog flowing. It has the added side-effect of thwarting those few who would manipulate the system." The worst abuse is not from those who bump, but rather from those who respect their fellow poets too much to displace a poem with one of their own. As Mark pointed out, those with no such respect will try to find other ways to circumvent the intent of the system - and get posting privileges for their alias suspended, as I've done to several this morning (next will come suspension for their main name, as well). Those who refuse to play on a level playing field will find themselves out of the game. And that's exactly what the unbump does - it levels the playing field, so that everyone moves up and down the page for the right reasons, not simply because they think it's time for another go-round. I have yet to hear anyone give a single reason why their poem is more deserving than another, or why they and not the other Members should control the poem's destiny. I have, however, heard that it can sometimes be difficult to know when an author has responded to their own post, because the colored folders can effectively hide that response, and I think that's a very valid complaint. I spent several hours yesterday working on a possible solution, and I hope to have something ready in the next few days. Frankly, I'd much rather spend my time working on solutions than spend it tracking down people who think a second Username should somehow give them special privileges. Forgive my ire. I find myself sorely disappointed this morning in some people's seeming lack of a sense of fairness. |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
I'm still a bit indecisive because there are things I like about both the feature and the lack thereof... but I'm back with my dithering. *S* First, I admit that I once created an alias. At that time, I needed to be someone other than suthern for several reasons... Some of those reasons are very personal, but they didn't include promoting suthern... on the contrary, I wished to see if my poems were good enough to stand on their own without anyone knowing my identity. I got my answer, and was glad to accept Ron's kind offer to merge that alias into suthern. I know there are a lot of aliases created strictly in fun and I don't have any problem at all with that... but I find the idea of creating an alias to respond to your own poetry absolutely abhorrent and inexcusable. Second... bump v. unbump. I'm not a prolific writer and I'm not an incredibly talented writer, so people aren't exactly waiting with bated breath for my offerings except in my daydreams. *G* And whether it's fair or not, the simple fact is that the attention a poem gets depends a lot on the time it's posted as well as who posts it. I can remember posting a couple of poems early on that got exactly 2 responses... Toe's reply and my thanks to him. But I reposted some of those poems months later and got many responses... the poem hadn't changed, but more people knew me and my work and took the time to read. My initial response to the bump feature being gone was "Thank heavens!" I knew it wouldn't be as easy to know when a poet had replied to my response... and that interaction is important to me... if PIP responses were limited to poetic critique, I'd be somewhere else. *S* And I knew that many times, my poems had garnered a much greater audience after I'd bumped it up with my thanks than it had initially received. But months without the type of search feature I craved had taught me well how to look for poems I'd read and wanted to re-visit... (I even resorted to taking notes *S*) and now I don't have to remember anything but the author (which isn't that difficult even for a blonde if the poem impressed me *S*) in order to search for their reply. And losing a way to bump my own poems made it easier to extend my thanks without embarrassment... even if there might be fewer to thank. When I thought of those who aggravated the dickens out of me blatantly bumping their own poems time and again, it was a worthwhile trade-off. But it seems the abusers won't be thwarted. Personally, I avoid reading their work.... That may sound mean, but my time is limited... I'm human. As I've read these forums for over a year and a half, I've found favorite poets... and if time restrictions force me to make a choice, I will choose a known treat for myself over reading something by a stranger... and I do so without guilt because when I have time, I wade through as much as 30 days worth of poems from the back forwards... whether old-timer or newbie, whether 50 replies or one... and I respond to those that touch me, regardless of who authored the poem... In the process, I find new favorites. But when I encounter a blatant bumper... I figure they're giving themselves enough attention without my help. *S* I start skipping their poems. Since some people won't play fair no matter what, I guess I'm leaning more towards restoring the bump... It's a shame that people want the attention so much they don't care how disrespectful they're being. But it's easier to avoid them if I don't have to figure out aliases. *S* |
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Parker Member Elite
since 2000-01-06
Posts 3129ON |
Well, Ron you haven't commented on the suggestion for the ability to have a display sort order option. Would this satisfy both camps, give each poet the choice, by setting a default order that they like. For poets that love the interactions that go along with the replies (including the authors) they would see the poems in last reply order.... For poets that just want to see poems in new topics, they see all the poems as they come into the site always new poems at the top. and I’m sure there are a few more ordering possibilities .... say first post order or funny icon order, or female poet order... (hmmm I like that one) or even god forbid high reply order or the more evil high author reply order.. on the other side of the coin it will help us shuffle to the bottom those poems we don't want up front for whatever our own reasons may be. Although I believe brand new shiny posts should always appear at the top as they come in.. (but that’s my preference...) Since we are an interactive site in many way's. These choice may even be enjoyed and preferred. What's you take on it... Parker [This message has been edited by Haleyja (edited 02-12-2001).] |
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Poeminister Senior Member
since 2000-02-26
Posts 1862Regina SK; Canada |
I didn't know when the bump-factor was in that I was doing something I shouldn't have been doing when I replied frequently in my posts to repliers, everyone seemed to be bumping in the same way so I didn't think there was any unfairness. I just know that if the bump were put back I would minimize the amount of replies I make in my posts to a certain number a day and make sure not to bump myself more than that number a day--- wouldn't that solve the unfairness with the bump if, we desgnated a certain limit for everyone as to how many times you can bump yourself a day altogether?? [This message has been edited by Poeminister (edited 02-12-2001).] |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
In response to Poeminister... and because I've drawn a breath since that last binge of verbosity *G* - This is just my preference... I don't pretend to speak for anyone else. *S* But it honestly didn't/doesn't bother me when someone is thanking others for responding to their poems... even if it means that every other post is from the poet. At most, it's a minor annoyance. Some of us just have more time on here than others and we're never going to level that particular playing field... and part of any annoyance is that I don't have the playtime. *S* But I would sincerely hope that anyone who had lots of "thank you" time had just as much time for reading and responding to others. Bottom line: It doesn't bother me if someone comments on my poem and pushes it down as they comment on 40 other poems, even if some of those poems are their own! I guess the deciding factor for me is whether they're participating or preening. *G* But I have encountered some poets who weren't even disguising their bumping with thanks to others... they were blatantly stating that their poem didn't have enough responses... and they weren't spending all their agonizing waiting time reading other poems! I'm sorry, but we all write duds (on second thought, I think I must write Balladeer's, Janet Marie's, Martie's, Marge's, Mark's, jellybeans', E. Santos's, Toe's, LJA's, Nan's, Hoot's, PDV's and several other peoples duds, cause I never ever see a dud with their name on it! LOL) But if you've given the poem a couple of chances at the top and no one responds, it could be because your timing was lousy... or it could be because people are too polite to say "this stinks." *S* Without bump, no one can toot their own horn quite so easily... but no one need worry about how often they respond to the people reading their poems. And personally, I like thanking people for taking the time to read and respond to my poem... I feel it's only courteous when I know that they could have spent their time elsewhere... even if it's two simple words "thank you." But I can't manage to cut myself the same slack I allow others... and I know I'm not alone in having to resort to email or feeling discourteous when I don't thank people after I've sent my poem to the top a few times... I've been on the receiving end of some of those "I wanted to let you know I appreciated your response... but I don't want to bump my poem back up so I'm sending this" emails. [This message has been edited by suthern (edited 02-12-2001).] |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
I would like to present this as my final word on the subject. . . I've read this whole thread again. . . and I have noticed that a lot of people have said, "I just want to be read" as their argument for not liking unbump. . . not all of them, and not in these words, but this is the essence of what they have said. . . The following used to be on the top of all of the pages where you would type in your reply. . . now, it's just on a selected few. . . but here it is. . . quote: Thank you again for your time. ------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I find it sad though that there has to be a personal motivation...ie - if you reply, then you'll GET replies... such is the way I suppose K...and I have found that a lifetime can be lived in one moment... T.G.M. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Whoa....Ron, I don't know how you do it...must have the patience of Job, but I've seen some wonderful additions here. 1) The green folder. Shows, as far as I can tell, a topic where the poster replied, at least when viewed from Today's Topics. 2) Responding to your own Discussion thread bumps, but responding to your own Poetry thread does not. Parker, you had some really good suggestions, and some of them, so it would seem, have been implemented. Ron, I truly don't know how you do it, I truly don't. But I'm thankful you do. PS: Didn't mean to steal your thunder, Ron. Alicat “It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” Charles Darwin [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 02-13-2001).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Amen |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
After just replying to my own poem (heh, heh, three, maybe four times? don't know) just want to say that I love the addition of both the unbump AND the flag for critique. Previously, I might not have been comfortable addressing that critique so quickly---so yeppers, RON---I like both...THANK YOU...you do think of everything! |
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jellybeans Member Elite
since 2000-10-13
Posts 2298 |
ok, i was undecided about this feature, and have read much of this here, and lots of people make sense, at first i didn't like it and i did like it......lol.....sybil here reporting for duty...no really, I didn't like it because I am not around much and my poems just slip off the page...I did like it because it make the interaction between the poet and the readers easier, and takes away the guilt of the bump...but the real reason I came was to say RON HURRAY FOR THE GREEN FOLDERS ...I LOVE THEM GREAT IDEA!!!!! |
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CocoBaci Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 3043 |
Once again, many many many thanks for the recent changes... [This message has been edited by CocoBaci (edited 02-13-2001).] |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
Before I take my leave of absents from Passions..... Link from Announcements... /pip/Forum3/HTML/000880.html I wanted to know if anything at all has been decided or no changes at all?? Is there still the possibility of a vote?? I do like the coloured folder for the poet's own response. I guess I am just looking for an update if there is one. Thanks Marina |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Marina, I don't even have time for an update, let alone time to organize a fair vote right now. Besides, when there's a vote, I want it to be based solely on which system works best, not on what people's dislike of anything new and different. That means giving the unbump some time. We'll wait for you… (but get well soon anyway!) |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
~*Irie takes a deep breath*~ Ok, here we go..... I'm torn on this whole subject, and I have read as many of the replies as I could and I do feel that everyone, for the most part, has a valid point. Why am I torn? OK.... I think the "unbump" is a good idea for those who choose to abuse the "bump" feature. What do I mean? Well, there are those who reply to every single reply that comes in on their post instead of waiting for at least a few before extending their thank you's. That was certainly annoying to me, as I'm sure it was to others. HOWEVER, I am disappointed to see the feature removed as I for one liked it. Why? Well, for several reasons. I for one do not have the time being a working mom and a having a very SLOW server, to email everyone who replies to my poetry. Though, as I have been left with no other choice, I am forced to do so. It was nice to be able to wait for several posts, as Marina stated, and then reply to fellow poets comments, saying thank you's and basically keeping in touch. Yes, is there is A LOT of poetry that flows through open at a very rapid speed. Just another thing I'm torn about. On one hand, your poetry does drop out of site rather quickly. But on the other hand, if we're bumping our own poetry back up, it's just shoving someone else's lower. So, as for now, I'm still torn on the issue, though I am leaning towards having it back. But that is only for my selfish reasons of having very limited time on my hands. And I have to say this, I tried really hard to just keep my mouth shut. But I found it amusing that a few members who are for the "unbump", have bumped their own posts more than one time, and at times, not even posting replies, just stating that they were bumping it. And most of us who wish to see the feature back, are not one's that would "abuse" the feature. I wonder why that is? Just wondering..... Ok, there are my two cents worth, ok, so maybe I gave three! hehe~Sheri "The things that come to those that wait may be the things left by those who got there first" |
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brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
ok first off I have not read through all four pages of this, I just trying to catch up on lost time (college getting in the way) personally I see Ron's points and I think they are very valid however in a fast moving forum like Open, especially during holdiays when there are less people on line, poems can vanish very fast. Very established memebers can easily get many posts on their poems without responding themselves but it is harder for less regular memembers. So I feel this unbump system may even the odds. I guess it there is no easy answer. You can't make everyone happy. I always repost to my posts and it is there I thank people. Sorry the whole thanking everyone through e-mail thing, I guess it never sunk in with me. in concluding I think some people do rely on that bump system in order to get their poems read. but which ever way it goes it goes. Either way Ron you are doing a great job. "difference between love and comfortis that comfort's more reliable and true |
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xShUgArHiGhx
since 2000-09-26
Posts 3150tRyIn tO fIt iN2 mY oWn ShoEs |
I liked the old way a lot better. I agree with Marina..i think its annoying to have your poem get lost in the crowd and not be able to bring it back to recognition...there are so many poems posted a day that poems get pushed down so fast!! I liked the old way better where you can bump your poems up...Im glad you brough this topic up Marina |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
WHOA... I seem to be quite a bit of a latecomer here... Can we consider this situation... I do not have a computer at my apartment. One may ask why not? Well, simply because I am away from home (In India) working on 3 monthly contract basis (in Belgium) which luckily has been extending since the last two years. and the cost of buying a computer would be equal to the custom duties I'd have to pay to get it to my official residence in India, and that is just one of the reasons. I work 5 days a week and am bound to my computer at work for 10 o 12 hours and I need the weekends to play catchup with relaxing, food, social activities, local friends, sport ... so basically I surf from my place of work, typically before and after working hours... believe me, that makes it a long day. Then consider this, I post a poem on a friday, and maybe get a couple of replies, and then it gets plunged because there are many users during peak hours. Please remember the world times also, I am in belgium, so I am about 7 hours away from most of you who post from USA etc... so when I shut my PC down usually earlier than on other weekdays, it is just the best part of the day starting elsewhere. Well, I come back on Monday and check my work back. It is not in the library, since the library is not updated that frequently. It is not in today's topics either. So I search back in the forums and glance through each of those lovely blue pages. This gives me a great view of all posts gone by, and a chance to read, but that is what I might have done even otherwise. But, since I surf from work, I cannot abuse my work privileges and surf all the time, that's against my work ethics. So even before I got to my poem, I am out of time, so I simply rush to my previous post, sometimes neglecting other posts, and respond for I feel the urge to thank each one of you for reading and commenting; and I always try to combine my replies in one post. Sometimes, some writers leave behind a wonderful poem as a response, others simply say what they feel etc. So while thanking I think, maybe more should read this work, since this has affected atleast one reader, and since I understand the "plunge" effect, I assume most people have not read that particular one. But my response doesn't send the thread back to the top. I dislike calling this a *BUMP*. I have had this situation in the earlier way of working, quite often that readers who manage to read the poem 'on the second run', comment, "how did I miss this one?" etc. Does that not create a doubt of maybe the sending back the thread to the top should be re-introduced? A poet/writer craves for some attention. But, mostly he/she craves to gain the knowledge that someone else was moved by his/her write in a certain way and for precisely that reason, it is essential that the "attention span", as some might wish to call this, is more. When I had more time at my disposal, i.e. when my room-mate had a computer in the apartment that I shared, at weekends, I used to be reaching out to posts with very few replies 0, 1 or 2 in that order and try to encourage the writer to write more and not give up, and that has worked in many cases. All constructive critiques and remarks were of course sent by e-mails, as some members here would be ready to acknowledge. But, since life is not the same at all times, the time that we have to do what we like most is also not the same quotient. Well, that is philosophy and not part of this discussion, and I have already spoken a lot. I still read about 20 to 50 poems a day and try to respond to about 15 to 40 of them depending on how I feel about the poem and when I type my "thank you" response is not with respects to how many I might still reply. But, there is a tendency with me (as is with all) to post a poem (If I have one) when I leave the site and check back the next day, when these days, I find that post laying in the pages far away read by a few members who happened to be there at the same time, while others couldn't reach the post, who might get a chance the next day if the old feature were restored. Whatever, I am rambling away too much, wasting much of all of your precious time. And it is getting to a 14 hour work day today… so all I will say is that I prefer the "back to the top" way of working for the open forums, and no aliases, please unless it is because of particular reasons other than to be read or to cheat the system, for that will soon be spotted and … Of course, Ron has the final choice and I appreciate his wonderful way of dealing with issues in a concrete manner taking all opinions on an equal basis. Thanks for reading what I ramble, I hope to catch up with this thread later, Regards, Sudhir. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Hey there Sudsy...  Wow, it's been a while since I've seen you around...guess I tend to stick to the discussion forums a tad too much. And don't worry...since many of the more social threads were moved to the Lounge, posts tend to stick around a bit longer here in the Alley.  <--ain't this cool? You espoused yourself very eloquently, but I have the feeling that you used a lot of your PiP time formulating this reply. By doing so, I know that the poem/reply discussion has touched you deeply. I'll be sure to hunt your work down when time permits. You have a good one, Sudsy, and try not to wear yourself down too awfully much. Pax Poeticus, Alicat |
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Dr.Moose1 Member Elite
since 1999-09-05
Posts 3448Bewilderment , USA |
Whew! I just read through all of the above , and all are good points ( for or against )however, the one that caught my attention most was the " todays topics " solution . This is probably one of the most user friendly poetry sites there is . Ron has done a wonderful job of making this a fact . All the necessary tools are in place to provide each individual with that which they desire . Personally , I find it hard to comprehend the nature of this discussion . We are poets , not politicians . We write because we have to . After that , who cares ? Doc |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
I was just reading Irish Rose's remark on "posting" to other people's poetry. And well, I am sorry but I do see something fimiliar about both these topics. Im fact I feel in a way they are connected. Mow granted I, myself, am guility on not responded enough to other people's work as I should, but if one does ( as we all should at least try) why can you then not have the right to "bump" yours back up. You have done right by others, so why can't you do right for yourself???? Just my thoughts for today... Marina It is a blessing to have wings for words, and passion in pen |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Now isn't this a trip? I just thanked people for replies on three of my poems..(I tend to neglect that sort of thing when pressed for time I shamefully admit it) and? THREE OUT OF FOUR poems bumped to the top!!!! me going crazy! |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
I think the same discussion is going on on different forums. One in Suggestions, one in Feelings and here in The Alley. I think I don't see about 3/4 of the submitted poems, just because lack of time. Internetting is quite an expensive business for me because I have to use the phoneline and phoning costs a lot in the Netherlands. I live too far out in the country for kabelinternetting. (Gosh, we got gaz for cooking, heating etc. only a few years ago) I have the same problem as Sudhir, I'm always posting when you have your dinner, that is on a late hour for me (it's 1 AM now).You probably post your own poetry first after dinner and after that read some other poems, well at that time my poem will be on page 2 or 3 already, so out of sight. I read a lot, more than I reply to, not every poem affects me in the same way, but I miss a lot too. So if you don't get a reply from me, it's not always lack of interest, but just lack of time. Lately I just walk through former pages and look for poems with few replies because I think those deserve to be looked at more closely instead of the poems that already have 10 to 25 replies. When I have to reply to all the poetry from people that replied to me, well, I think I do need a second job to cover the costs and I won't see my bed at all. As for alias... I learned about their existance only recently and I don't approve at all (some private exceptions excluded maybe). I felt a bit 'taken by the nose' as we say overhere. That means that I welcome somebody at Passions who's poems I replied to just before. I think that's not fair. No wonder poems are moving fast to nowhereland. Well, we all have comments on this subject, but I don't know the answer neither. I only hope Passions is not turning into some contest of gathering the most replies. I reply to words, not to names, at least I try to. My count on open #14 = total posts 482, original posts 50. Don't know if that's good or bad. So my time is up, it's half past two AM, want to take a quick look at open #14 and then it's bedtime, full day work tomorrow. See you all at open #14 I hope. Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... |
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rascalx Senior Member
since 1999-08-25
Posts 590Florence, SC, USA |
I think my brain has turned into mush after reading all of the previous replies, but as they were well written and presented many valuable points, I just had to follow the thread through to its "completion". As for my own 1.3 cents (taxes and inflation, ya know ), I will go on record by saying that I agree with Ron. While I find it frustrating at times that a poem I'm quite proud of has slipped into the "lost realms of page 6+", I can not think of a better way to make sure that all of the writers here are fairly represented. Yes, we all want to be read..thus, irregardless of talent or popularity, we should all get the chance to be read. While no system is perfect, if the readers and writers here utilize the tools that Ron has so wonderfully provided for us, our poems as well as our responses WILL be read in a manner that benefits everyone.Thanks, - Jeff |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
I just want to explain that for quite some time I thought that I was being rude if I didn't answer every reply I got on my poems. It took a lot of time doing that resting lesser time to read and reply. Then I saw others replying once in a while and that's what I'm doing now too, most of the time that is. Am I glad that the BUMPING UP is not available, for you must have thought of me doing that on purpose, while I thought I was just being polite. I really don't know what's best. I never knew the bump up time so I've no experience with that. Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... |
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Dusk Treader
Moderator
Senior Member
since 1999-06-18
Posts 1187St. Paul, MN |
Wow.. I just managed to read through this entire thread, and boy there are a lot of arguments. Forgive me if I've missed some past point or decision, as there was a lot of information and it's getting late. I am glad to see that the bump "feature" has been removed. I've always felt like I was cheating other people out of the spotline when I replied to my own works, but I also wanted to extend my thanks to the wonderful people who commented. I agree with Ron, especially when he says (and I paraphrase) why should any author have the right to decide their work deserves another go around? That just doesn't seem right to me. We have the nice silver folders now that tell us when a post has been replied to, and if you really want to know if the author replied to our reply we'd remember and be able to do a quick search for him/her. I do this all the time. I don't like "bumping." I think the important thing here is the poetry. On a semi-related note, I wonder how the replying would change in Open if only the poem's title was listed on the forum list. Poet's name and the number of replies it has would all be inside. People would be attracted by interesting or creative titles instead of a poets name or the bandwagon appeal. Okay, shutting up now "They that start by burning books will end by burning men." -- Heinrich Heine |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Ron Perhaps this has already been suggested ( I haven't the time to read through 5 pages of responses ) but, I was wondering if it was technically possible to add an e-mail notification to thread responders -- at their election of course. This would seemingly allow fellow poets to know when they have been 'thanked' without scouring the back 40. |
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The Lonely Stranger Member
since 1999-06-18
Posts 361Upstate, NY, USA |
Hi all .... I guess I'll pipe up here. First on a semi related (Posting Etiquitte) topic, I want everyone to know that I read about two screens of poetry a day. I do not, however, comment a lot. To be honest I don't understand every poem and I don't want to cheapen the value of a reply because I clearly didn't understand their poem. So please know that if I don't comment on your poem .... I almost surely read it. Would anyone be able to suggest a way for me to make a comment that says that I took the time to read a poem even if I didn't understand it? I'm all for learning new people skills. Now to the topic at hand. I originally responded to each and every response to my poems ..... then I saw a more polite way which was to wait and reply to several at once. And I even try not to do that more than twice. Perhaps we simply establish an etiquitte that says you may bump your poem back up with thank you's only once or twice, we are all adults and surely could abide by a standard ... yes ? No one ever listened themselves into trouble. |
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The Lonely Stranger Member
since 1999-06-18
Posts 361Upstate, NY, USA |
Suggestion : If the "autobump" stays dead .... a possible solution to the "author thanks" issue is this : 1) When a non-author responds in a thread, his/her e-mail addy is combined with a thread number to form a record in a file as in the example below .... 000520LonelyStrgr@aol.com 000520Member@aol.com 2) Add an "e-mail all responders" button that will read all responder names from the file and put them in the "mailto" portion of an e-mail and present the e-mail window for the author to type a "group reply" in which he/she can cite individual replies or do a group thank you. 3) After each "e-mail all responders" is executed, the program could delete those responder records from the file to prevent repeated e-mailing of thank you's to people who have only replied once. Only the responders who are new will get the e-mail each time. So what do ya think??? No one ever listened themselves into trouble. |
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Tracey Member Elite
since 2001-08-29
Posts 2808where insanity meets breeding |
Lonely stranger, one way of letting people know you've read their poem, is to do like Vandana does, she simply says "enjoyed", without going into an explanation. I know she's read my poem and enjoyed it. Something like that would let people know that you liked the poem and read it. Just a thought On the topic of e-mailing someone everytime the author responds to a response: I personally wouldnt like that feature. I usually respond to anywhere from 10-30 poems a day, so if all those people responded to my response, that would be an awful lot of e-mails in my in-box. wouldnt be so bad if there was just one e-mail sent at the end of the day, listing all the authors who responded to my response, but not one each. Just my 2c worth If she who dies with the most toys wins, then can I have some toy boys please? |
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rosepetals25
since 2000-05-31
Posts 3076PA |
I'm not sure if I already responded to this or not... I didn't see my name when I scanned the pages... which surprises me because I'm sure I would have responded by now. I also like and miss the bump feature. It had it's problems.. authors abusing the self-bump.. but over all I believe it was a good thing. It gave a chance for lesser known poets to be seen more often. Alot of people respond to names. Which is understandable. If some one has a lot of posts you see their names often, and they becomes friends. Familar. New faces get passed with out a second glance, usually. I also like the feature for.. .well... selfish reasons. *chuckles* I know writing is suppose to be all about just that writing, not the replies. The reason I look for replies aren't for acceptance to see a large number of replies by my name, but to see if anyone offered a suggestion of what could be done better. Learning from the other poets has helped my writing improve more than I could ever say. I don't think we are forcing people to read the poems that are bumped back to the top. I think I read someone say in this bundle of replies, that they have their own mind..they know what they want to reply to. Seeing the poem back at the top wouldn't make them suddenly want to reply. And that is fine. But, I know that I miss some poems. With the bump feature I have a second chance to find the pome. Today's Topics is a brilliant idea, and it has helped much, but I still miss some poems, not being able to be here as much as I would like some days. Over all I like the self bump. I thought it was a good idea.. and I miss it. I also liked an idea I saw, about the "newbie forum" This would give the new people a place to stretch their legs, get to know how things work... I don't think they would have to post there.. but they could be given the option. Have everyone under 500 posts be able to post in there. That way, their name will be known, at least to a few. And everyone else can stop in and read and reply to the poems. I really like that idea.. and I would gladly volunteer as moderator if it would come to light... Ok.. I'm done now. lol. Thanks for reading my rambling ramble Tara "My heart is like an open book, for the whole world to read" |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
As commented above by The Lonely Stranger, my suggestion was to bring back the "unbump" feature but you have to have so many replies say 5-7 BEFORE you can bump yourself and only to a max of twice. Just saving those who don't have the time to read through 5 pages of the issue which has been going on since I orginally posted this. Thanks to everyone who is still putting in their thoughts on this issue, we are all members of the Passions family and as such we are all intitled to our opinions. Thanks, Marina It is a blessing to have wings for words and passion in pen. |
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RosePetal
since 2001-08-26
Posts 2985South Florida |
I agree with Paula...Maybe putting a limit on how many times the original poster can bump it up will be the best way to handle this. It doesnt really matter to me either way because my poems wind up on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th page after 30 mins of me posting it. It's all good, no matter what decision Ron comes to. [This message has been edited by RosePetal (edited 11-26-2001).] |
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Bec Member
since 2001-02-23
Posts 475Canberra |
Hi All... This certainly makes for an interesting read. However, I do have a question about how this works. I know many members, including myself, encourage constructive criticism. If another member were to read my work, and make suggestions that I don't agree with, and I post a reply to say so, how are they to know what I've said if they don't come back to my work? Although the originator of the work is made aware of replies to their post, people who post replies aren't made aware that the originator has then responded to what they have said. Please please please don't think I'm trying to start an argument, because it seems there are some people losing their cool over this thread, I'm just asking a question. Does this make sense? I'm almost finished semester, the ol' creative juices are going into hibernation for a while... Bec The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there ~ Unknown |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Howdy Bec. To answer you question, when you reply to your originating post, it will show that in Today's Topics. Notice the timestamp when you reply to your own work...it may not show up in today's Today's Topics, but in yesterdays (easily checked with a click on the yesterday link on TT's page). Note, this will not 'bump' your work, but it will show in TT with a muted folder color, indicating that the originator has replied to own work. Hope that helps. Alicat, Alley/Lounge Mod |
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