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Syllable counting
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Syllable counting |
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Sue Member
since 1999-08-04
Posts 383France |
Why do so many people think that counting syllables is all you need to do to make a poem flow? Meter is not only dependent on the number of syllables, but on where the accent lies - so many good poems I see here would be great poems if everyone remembered this. Compare the two following verses, and you will see what I mean: Skies are turning grey Nights becoming chill Migrants fly away Their summer song is still Skies are turning grey Nights becoming chill The birds fly away Their summer song is still Perhaps if our poets were to read their poems out loud to themselves they would be able to feel the difference? |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
I see perfectly. Not just the accented syllables but where the syllables are grouped and placed, balancing the syllables toward one end or the other or even the middle of the line changes the effect profoundly. It is a technique I'm working on now. ------------------ Shall I indulge in flights of fancy hampered by clipped wings? DreamEvil© |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
All righty, guys - You know I can't stay away from this one..... (All of my wonderful free-verse friends - block your ears - um....eyes!!) Poetic meter is not just a matter of syllable count - A poem that is written with a rhyme scheme, but still sounds "forced" is most likely not in proper meter - Conversely, a poem that "sings" to you will most likely be written with both intact - "rhyme and meter" So, how to assess your meter? Here's a brief synopsis: There are two elements to proper meter - the number of "feet" per line, and the pattern of stressed syllables (ergo the syllable count thingy). Let's start with the pattern of stressed syllables - It's much more than just counting to make sure you have an equal number on each line. The patterns are? ...iambic - (short/long) - (e.g. - re-PLY') ...trochaic - (long/short) - (e.g. - REA'-son) ...anapestic - (short/short/long) - (e.g. - in-ter-FERE') ...dactylic - (long/short/short) - (e.g. - SYL'-la-ble) ...spondaic - (long/long) - (e.g. - HEART'BEAT') ...pyrrhic - (short/short) - (e.g. - darned if I know, this one's tough) So, combine a rhythm of iambic, trochaic, or the like - with a specified number of "feet" (repetitions of stressed pattern) and you have a poetic rhapsody. ...monometer - ....One foot per line - (e.g. - "Be-HOLD!" - iambic monometer) ...dimeter - ....Two feet per line - (e.g. - "Re-FLEC-tions FOUND" - iambic dimeter) ...trimeter - ....Three feet per line - (e.g. - "Yes, it AL-ways takes TWO side by SIDE" - ......anapestic trimeter) ...tetrameter - ....Four feet per line - (e.g. - "TWIN-kle, TWIN-kle, LIT-tle STAR" - trochaic tetrameter) ......one syllable shy - btw - ...pentameter - ....Five feet per line - (e.g. - "Our VI-sion NOW be-STOWS the BLIND with SIGHT" - ......iambic pentameter) This format is used for any properly written sonnet ......(along with a specified rhyme scheme in 14 line format) ...hexameter = six feet ...heptameter = seven feet ...octameter = eight feet...... So, my dear friends... if that isn't sufficient, hang around and we'll get into the use of imagery.. and you free versers had better listen on that one!!!!!!! Nuff said - Go away now, Nance......  [This message has been edited by Nan (edited 08-20-99).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I believe Nan's comments will be posted in an upcoming newsletter for everyone to enjoy. -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/- That's how I count the syllables.... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Thank you Nanners for the 'fresher course. Sure beats having to open another window to follow poetic primer links.  Alicat |
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JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Thanks Nan. I copied and printed that lesson for further study (sadly, that was the first real less in poetry that I have ever recieved - isn't public education marvelous?) Waiting for the lesson on imagery now... ------------------ Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. JP |
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Lucie Senior Member
since 1999-06-20
Posts 1077Houston |
ummmm.... huh? hahah.. lost again. |
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elvira Senior Member
since 1999-07-06
Posts 936California |
[This message has been edited by elvira (edited 08-22-99).] |
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Angel Senior Member
since 1999-07-02
Posts 551Pennsylvania |
I am confused! I never had any of that stuff in school, actually we never even really wrote poetry other than this year. I usually have trouble with my meter, too. I just can't do it! |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I never took poetry in school...there was a little bit about how it's constructed in Senior English... |
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Sue Member
since 1999-08-04
Posts 383France |
Thanks, Nan, for the quick digest - I knew some of it, but by no means all. I always find that the more theory I know about something, the easier it is to do. Any time you have anything to add, I'll be there with my tongue hanging out. |
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LngJhnAg Member Elite
since 1999-07-23
Posts 3508Boot+Kitty=Poetry in motion |
Nan I understand the idea of meter - but I have a lot of trouble with the difference between long and short - for example: your example of iambic (short/long) was the word "reply." I would have thought 'reply' was long/long (phonetically speaking). Am I pronouncing 'reply' correctly? I say it as 'ree-ply' - is it really 'ruh-ply'? Is that where I'm going wrong - my diction? HELP!!! |
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Sue Member
since 1999-08-04
Posts 383France |
Diction. Definitely. It has to rhyme with 'the fly' |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Don't tell Long John to rhyme something with a "fly". God only knows what kind of poem we'll get!!!! LGA, in answer to your question, it IS: re-PLY REE-fer RUG-RAT |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm new here. But, I'm just amazed that people are actually interested in talking about meter. Nan's primer (and where have I read that before?) is a great, concise way of remembering all those patterns (I have this problem of forgetting big words). I've got a couple of additions to what has been talked about before: LngJng: I think maybe this is a problem with the terminology we use to describe stressed and unstressed syllables: 'long' and 'short' come, not from phonetics, but from the poetics of Greek and Latin where the actual duration of the syllable counted (I guess, I don't know but that's what people tell me). English speakers adopted the terms to describe our poetry but it's confusing for some of the problems you mentioned. It's where you put the accent that really counts: conTRACT (verb) versus CONtract (noun). 2. Elvira: If you're a non-native English speaker you may have problems hearing the subtler stresses in English. Many of my students don't see a difference between say university and universe city (even if you say it fast, there is a difference). If you actually practice listening, you'll get it in time. At the same time, you probably notice things in English that a native speaker generally doesn't -- not a bad thing for a poet, don't you think? Okay, there's my two cents. But, if anyone's interested, I'll try to talk about the three different types of English stress later. Well, I hope somebody found this interesting. Brad |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Hey BradIt's about time you got here - I've had the coffee on forever, it seems.... Welcome to the Big Leagues (don't be telling secrets out of school, either). Thanks, I can use your help on this one for sure. So, put on your pedagogical pallium and dig in....  ------------------ Nay, if our wits run the Wild-Goose chase, I am done: For thou hast more of the Wild-Goose in one of thy wits, Than I am sure I have in my whole five. ~ ²1592 Wm. Shakespeare ~ Romeo & Juliet ~ ii. iv. 75 [This message has been edited by Nan (edited 08-20-99).] |
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Sue Member
since 1999-08-04
Posts 383France |
I found it very definitely interesting! Welcome, the more experts we have here the happier I will be! |
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Majere Junior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 32 |
Um... Nan? I know I am not an English teacher or anything like that but shouldn't Brad put on his Andragogical Pallium and dig in? There are more adults around here than children aren't there? Just wondering.... ------------------ Such is the way to immortality ;) |
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Sue Member
since 1999-08-04
Posts 383France |
Or gynagogical, us adults aren't all males, you know! |
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LngJhnAg Member Elite
since 1999-07-23
Posts 3508Boot+Kitty=Poetry in motion |
I feel as though I have found the Lost Dutchman Mine of poetry. Thanks for the help, Brad. I can't believe how lucky I am! man! Time for me to get started. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, I tried to do this in depth but got kicked off the internet so I'll have to give a quick definition of what I was talking about. By the way, I am not an 'expert' in poetry -- I am a student/teacher of language and communication strategies. Poetry is a hobby. Anyway, here are the three types of stress: semantic stress: this one's easy. Any two syllable or more word has an accent on one of the syllables. If the word has more than two syllables it has a primary and secondary stress (generally, both are considered a stress in poetry). If you have a problem, check a dictionary. grammatical stress: important words are stressed more than unimportant words concerning meaning. What is an important word? You tell me --ex: Life and death are important. rhetorical stress: This is based entirely on the context of the conversation and/or pattern of the poem (this needs examples but I can't give them right now). Quickly: i LIVE in KoREa. (this is normal) I (stressed) live in KoREa. I live IN KoREa. i live in KOREA. Sorry, I can't do more for now. I will continue later. But, these are some of the things you can play with as a poet. Please, have fun with this, Brad |
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CrAyZeD Junior Member
since 1999-08-03
Posts 45 |
HUH? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'll assume you really didn't understand what I said (and if you were being facetious, please have a good laugh at my expense). I'll begin at the beginning, not because I think you're stupid but because we may actually disagree on the basics. What is stress? Stressed and unstressed syllables are a way of describing the different emphasis, pitch, duration (and others) that two English syllables have in relationship to each other. Outside of a context, any one syllable word has no stress -- 'life' 'man' 'tree' The moment you have two syllables, you have one that is stressed more than the other: 'woman' 'a man' 'lively'-- Can you hear it? Potentially, there is an infinite amount of variation among stressed and unstressed syllables; poets use a binary system to describe what they do because it is the simplest way to explain what they do. It is not a science; it is not absolute; it is relative. Believe it or not, all this is is a way of describing how you speak in English everyday. The terminology may throw you off but you do it every time you speak. And next, I'll talk about meter. Hope this was necessary and that you're not laughing too hard, Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Hey, is anybody interested in meter? If I have inadvertantly offended anyone, I apologize. I'm just trying to show that meter's roots come from the everyday language we use (yeah, I watch TV and listen for this stuff sometimes). Even if you write free verse, an understanding of stress can help you at least control your language. Was this too easy? (Brad, I KNOW this already) Was this too boring? (your eyes glaze over and you think -- who cares, I just want to write). My own experience in high school and college when it came to the teaching of meter was less than satisfactory (more confusing than enlightening) but maybe not for everyone? So, where are people on this subject? If you don't care, please tell me. If you thought my comments were superfluous, tell me. I want to talk about this but not just to myself (I can do that without a computer). Thanks, Brad |
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traveler Member
since 1999-08-17
Posts 119 |
Go on Brad ... just following along |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, if someone's actually reading this, I'll continue. Besides, now, we finally get to poetry. So, what do we mean when we meter a poem? Go back to Nan's comments above (I think it is one of the simplest and concise explanations I have read). These are the basic terms you need to talk about meter. To meter a poem is to arrange stressed and unstressed syllables in a predictable pattern that when combined with other factors like rhyme, alliteration, line length and so forth creates a rhythm to the poem. So, how do you figure out the meter of a poem? You do what people call a scansion. This is just the marking of stressed and unstressed syllables usually above the line in question. (x and / or - and / or some other marks) There are six rules to scansion. (this is really the same thing as the three types of stress - from Robert Hass - but this if from Lewis Turco). And I'll put that in my next post. Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The six rules for scanning a poem are the following: 1. In every word of the English language of two or more syllables, at least one syllable will take a stress. If one cannot at first hear the stressing, then one may consult a pronouncing dictionary. 2. Important single-syllable words, particularly verbs and nouns, generally take strong stresses. 3. Unimportant single-syllable words in the sentence, such as articles, prepositions, and pronouns (except demonstrative pronouns) do not take strong stresses, though they may take secondary stresses through promotion or demotion, depending on their position in the sentence or the line of verse. 4. In any series of three unstressed syllables in a line of verse, one of them, generally the middle syllable, will take a secondary stress through promotion and will be counted as a stressed syllable. 5. In any series of three stressed syllables in a line of verse, one of them, generally the middle syllable, will take a secondary stress through demotion and will be counted as an unstressed syllable. 6. Any syllable may be rhetorically stressed by means of italics or some other typographical play. Anybody see any problems yet? If everything here is 'correct', what do we do with pyrrhics and spondees? How does demotion and promotion work? And the joy of metered verse: the substitution? So, do I keep talking? Brad |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Y'Ain'Lost me yit!!  ------------------ Nay, if our wits run the Wild-Goose chase, I am done: For thou hast more of the Wild-Goose in one of thy wits, Than I am sure I have in my whole five. ~ ²1592 Wm. Shakespeare ~ Romeo & Juliet ~ ii. iv. 75 |
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traveler Member
since 1999-08-17
Posts 119 |
Just sittin waitin for the next lesson ... |
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PhaerieChild Senior Member
since 1999-08-30
Posts 1787Aloha, Oregon |
I'm waitin' for the test. Hope I can pass it. ------------------ Words lay dormant in the recesses of the mind til called forth to a labor of love. By WildChild |
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wayoutwalt Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 4870TEXAS (it's all big) |
this is what i needed yes thank you brad! |
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traveler Member
since 1999-08-17
Posts 119 |
Ok ... I think I am following along ... just posted my third poem ... the first were ... well it would be kind to say rough ... would you take a look ... see if I'm on the right track ... I think my limited talents would be better suited to free or blank verse ... maybe prose ... but I am persistent if not stubborn ... Thanks |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Gee, thanks for all the replies. Nan, thanks for the support but it never even occurred to me that you would have any problems with this stuff. wayoutwalt, thanks. WildChild, a test? Everytime you read a poem, you can test yourself (later, I will put up examples). traveler, well, I haven't read your poem yet but if you want to do 'blank verse', you still have to be familiar with this stuff. Now, I want to talk about spondees (two stressed syllables) and phyrrics (two unstressed syllables). By the system so far outlined above, there aren't any. We're working in a binary relationship were one syllable always has to have more stress than the other. In Nan's explanation, she uses 'heartbeat' as an example of a spondee but when I say 'heartbeat' I actually hear a trochee. My dictionary gives the primary stress on 'heart' and a secondary stress on 'beat'. She can't give an example of a phyrric because, well, there aren't any. There are professors of English who argue this (they also want to use a different type of scansion system). There are professors of English who argue against phyrrics but for spondees (it's a long story). I think they're useful because while we're using a binary system any two syllables we're talking about are still in a line within a poem and given the almost infinite amount of stress variation, it just doesn't make any sense to avoid using them. For example: on a green hill it seems silly, to me, to argue that 'on a' is a trochee and 'green hill' is iambic (or you could argue it is also a trochee) so that 'on' has the 'same' amount of stress as 'green' or 'hill'. Simply put, it's a phyrric - spondee combination and this is quite common in poetry and how we speak (and if you want even more terminology, it's called an ionic minor foot -- don't think that's all that important though). Okay, I'll stop here but I will say from hear on in, we'll probably have people who disagree with what I say (this is a good thing). So, let's have some fun. Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I was in a bar last night (my wife still lets me out now and then) and I ordered a drink: I'd like a Gin 'n Tonic, please. The bartender didn't know what was in it. So what's the meter of my request? At this bar, I met a few guys there and I (not very subtly, mind you) brought up poetry and Milton came up. One guy (from New Zealand) argued that Milton wrote in free verse. He may have a point (but I'll talk about that later). Anyway, promotion and demotion -- what are these things? In any metered poem, there is a creation of a pattern that can predicted, that can anticipated by the reader. The writer, then, can put words that normally you wouldn't stress in a position that, according to the pattern, should be stressed(promotion). "I know you are but what am I" Pronouns are generally not stressed but how can you read the above sentence without stressing that final 'I' -- what's the meter in this sentence? The reverse is true with demotion: "Two roads diverged in a wood" Within the context of the whole poem (which is iambic) 'Two' is demoted to an unstressed position. That's a pretty famous line in a pretty famous poem -- look it up if you don't trust me (I'm doing this from memory at the moment so I might have made a mistake). But, you may wonder, are those last three words -- what's an anapest doing in an iambic poem? This is a substitution, a tri-syllabic substitution, and a lot of people, even today, do not like these. But that's for next time (and I'll talk about Milton as well), Brad |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
...I know - I know...... Iambic Tetrameter short-long/short-long/short-long/short-long i'd-LIKE/a-GIN/'n'-TON/ic-PLEASE |
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Sue Member
since 1999-08-04
Posts 383France |
This is fantastic! I've been away for a while, which is why I haven't responded. Brad, please don't stop! |
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traveler Member
since 1999-08-17
Posts 119 |
I have a question as you continue ... Brad I hope you continue! .... Promotion and demotion, are these accepted conventions or are they frowned upon ... should I try to avoid their usage or are the frequently employed ... LOL ... I guess what I am wondering is if you employ them is there the chance the the result is a 'forced' sound to the rhyme and meter ... thanks again ... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks for your support (and, gee, no one's made fun of my spelling and grammatical errors errors yet -- it's pyrrhic, Brad, pyrrhic. Not phyrric as in fyrric.) Traveler, as far as I can tell, they are accepted conventions by most people interested in this stuff. But, be careful, it still should sound natural to your ear. I think I made a mistake in a poem a while back (which I'll post here as soon as I get through substitution) of trying to use promotion where it just sounded stupid (simply, I was trying to ryhme ring with lightning) You can do this, of course, but in my poem, I don't think it works since every other rhyme is in a stressed position, lightning's natural stress is put out of whack -- LIGHT NING versus LIGHT ning. I still like the poem, just have to change that. If you're just beginning (aren't we all?), use them sparingly and make sure that your meter is very CLEAR in other lines. Remember, it is the predictive pattern of meter that allows us to do these things. Lewis Turco's rules concerning the three syllable thingey are based on iambs. This is fine because that's what most of us write. One professor (Robert Wallace) has argued that iambic is the stress pattern of English and all others are substitutions or experiments. I write in iambic (although I do experiment) and just about everyone else does too. Except for one little thing. The most famous poem in America (sorry, I don't know about other places) is not written in iambic. Does anybody know what it is? Does anybody know the meter? It begins: 'Twas the night . . . Brad |
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Sue Member
since 1999-08-04
Posts 383France |
Hiawatha? Trochaic. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
I know... I know.... Let's see if you guys can get this one... figure out the stress pattern... Then Refer back to my breakdown of those patterns... I know someone can get it... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Before I talk about trisyllabic substitution, I thought I'd talk about Sue's little poems: 'x' is unstressed. '/' is stressed. / x / x / Skies are turning grey (same) Nights becoming chill (same) Migrants fly away x / x / x / Their summer song is still / x / x / Skies are turning grey (same) Nights becoming chill x / / x / The birds fly away x / x / x / Their summer song is still Are they in a meter? Well, as I read it sounds pretty regular to me so I would have to say yes. In the first poem, we have three lines with five syllables beginning and ending with stresses. Right? The last line, however, starts with an unstressed syllable, has six syllables, and ends with a stress. If we divide this last line up into feet, Their sum // mer song // is still we have three iambs. The last line is in perfect iambic trimeter. The other three lines, however, begin with a strong stress but then follow the same pattern (iambs) and most people argue that scansion should be done in a binary system of two syllables. How is this problem solved? You add a silent syllable at the beginning of each line: (x) / x / x / Skies are turning grey and if you do this for every line that needs it, we have a poem in (if not absolutely perfect) regular iambic trimeter. There are a lot of names for this but I like 'headless iamb' because it's easy to remember. To my ear, this poem reads very similarly to other poems in iambic trimeter. (Don't forget to read these poems out loud; it's much easier to see how this stuff actually makes sense). This is a fairly common variation to the regular pattern of iambic. Let's move to the second poem. We have one line changed and it's only a reversal of one foot so it seems logical that the basic meter of the piece hasn't changed. We still have iambic trimeter but, for me, that third line does sound different (or is it just me?) (caution: this is getting a little academic because I'm trying to follow the rules. In a nutshell, the poem is still iambic trimeter with a weird substitution in the third line. Poets do this all the time. From a poet's point of view, do you really need to know anything else? Only if you want to.) rule 1: feet have to have at least two syllables (debatable) rule 2: if it's regular trimeter, it should have three feet. (broken all the time) If I break up the line this way: x / / x / (x) The birds // fly a // way we have three feet -- one iamb and two trochees. The trochee is just the mirror of an iamb and is generally considered to be a legitimate substitution. The imaginary last syllable is called truncation but to my knowledge it only works at the end of a line, not the middle (perhaps, in this case the more common sensical spot to put an imaginary syllable but only because we know the first poem and what Sue was trying to show us.) So what am I trying to say in this rather long involved explanation: That a poem in regular iambic can and often does have trochaic substitutions. Poets do this. That a line in a trimeter poem can have 5,6,7 or even more syllables and still be counted as trimeter. You can have an odd number of syllables in a metered poem. Tetrameter--same deal just with a different base Pentameter-- same deal just with a different base Why does this work? Because the rhythm's strength comes from the STRESSED syllables, not the unstressed syllables. And I'll give a concrete example of this next time. Are we having fun yet? Is it confusing? If all of this is immediately clear to you, then you are far smarter than I am (of course, that's not saying much). Brad [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 09-08-99).] |
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Sue Member
since 1999-08-04
Posts 383France |
Yes, we are having fun. Yes, it is slightly confusing. With a bit of effort I do understand it, but that isn't intelligence, it is interest. I didn't know the poem, but I think I found it. " 'Twas the night before Christmas when all through the house..." If I counted right it is anapestic tetrameter. Thanks, Brad, for the hint which made it possible to find it. [This message has been edited by Sue (edited 09-08-99).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Hey, Brad, is class over so soon? I rather sensed you were just getting warmed up... More, please! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks Ron. Actually, as people get to know me, they'll realize 'class' (I prefer conversation) is never over. There are only breaks in a long process of trying to improve. I'm sharing my ideas and some of what I've read, nothing more. I just wish more people would share too . Don't whine, Brad, it's unbecoming.Sue, you win a genuine almost gold Australian boomerang key chain with the USA flag plastered on it (made in Taiwan). You'll get it as soon I meet you in person and so soon as I can find it. Let's see what's next: Why stressed syllables are more important than unstressed syllables? Why trisyllabic substitution is okay in a metered poem? How does meter enhance meaning? (I just found a really good, simple example for this one. It's by Irving Layton. Does anybody know who he is?) Maybe when we get into individual poems, we can actually get some disagreements going Brad |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
WOW.>Geesh...I'm printing this one for later reading everyone. Thanks for the valuable input Nan. Now I'm off in search of a creative writing class to enhance my abilities and drive at this whole poetry thing I do so enjoy. : ) Seriously, I have been wanting and feeling the need to do so for a while now. I took creative writing in high school too, and paid careful attention when we covered poetry in English. He he..I'm an English nut. I loved it. : ) |
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Ladycat 
since 1999-07-05
Posts 782At the edge and a doorway,TX |
Ladies and Gentlemen, If I knew nothing before I sure know something now.. I feel like I have just been through the Brad school of intelligent writing.. Wow Nan, I have seen someone that can talk like you.. hehe.. Thank you all.. To remember all of this I had to print it out.. Love, Lady ------------------ Live in my world just once and you'll find yourself enraptured. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Sorry for the delay. It does seem that some people are reading this and if that's the case, I'll keep throwing out ideas and seeing what happens. The following example comes from Derek Attridge's POETIC RHYTHM -- a book (Ron?) someone called controversial. It is different and, to my mind, very useful. Anyway, stressed versus unstressed syllables: Read the following sentences out loud keeping the two strong stresses at equal intervals. Start with a very slow beat (and tap your hand or foot to keep the beat): CARL TENDS CArol TENDS CAroline TENDS CAroline inTENDS CAroline interFERES CAroline is interFERing CAroline is an interFERer Now, try to do the same thing with CAroline JONES TENDS. If this exercise works the same way for you as it does for me, you'll see how stressed syllables are more important than unstressed syllables. Trisyllabic substitution should not be a problem. However, 'Caroline is an interferer' with a regular beat should have been a little difficult to say (for me, anyway). So, stressed syllables are the important ones but that doesn't mean you can throw in all the unstressed syllables you want. It just sounds wierd. More later. Hope everybody is having a good time, Brad |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I finally had to print it out to keep up...  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Okay, this is for people interested. If you don't care, no big deal. |
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Iloveit Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 1121NM |
well brad, even though I joked in critical that I didn't care, I came and was interested, thank you for sharing your knowledge. Don't know if I will be able to incorporate it into my poetry as I write free verse, but I find it very interesting and love to learn I think free verse uses its own rythm and accents, it doesn't have any rules, but when I write, I just know when a line sounds wrong or is hard to read, and so adjust the line length or reword entirely.... glad you are here am anxious to learn more about poetry |
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rachana.s Member
since 1999-09-16
Posts 55madras,tamil nadu,India |
brad, this sure is reading material for the day. thank you. I'll get back. rachi |
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JTF Member
since 1999-08-09
Posts 319France |
Brad , wow !!!! .... that's a brilliant lesson ... ... It will probably take me a month to get through it though ... LOLSomething you said made me smile : "If you're a non-native English speaker you may have problems hearing the subtler stresses in English. Many of my students don't see a difference between say university and universe city ... Definitely !! ... I'm French and I could give you about a hundred other examples ... LOL I have a question for you ... something I disagreed about with my "English teacher" ... ... Do the 3 words tears, fears and years rhyme ? |
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Marilyn Member Elite
since 1999-09-26
Posts 2621Ontario, Canada |
Brad...I find this very useful. Please do not stop the lessons. It is a lot to take in all at once but I will print and keep trying to figure it all out. I need these lessons and appreciate them. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks to those who have read and are reading the above 'stuff'. Glad some of you are taking Nan's class. Even if you want to write free verse, the formal aspects of poetry (and indeed how the English language works) can help you control your language and create the poem you want to create. Is everybody getting comfortable with the terminology yet? At the very least, you can impress friends with your erudition (or in my case, force them to gag me when I start talking about this stuff). Remember: iambs and trochees are mirror images. iamb -- x / trochee -- / x anapests and dactyls are mirror images. anapest -- x x / dactyl -- / x x spondee and pyrrhics are opposites. spondee -- / / pyrrhic -- x x Let's see years, tears, and fears -- sounds like they rhyme to me. But what really counts is how you say it. I think there is plenty of variation in the language to argue it if you so choose (in English, there are no rules, only general guides). Robert Frost said 'flower' as one syllable; I say it with two. I've had debates with other teachers on the syllable count of 'orange'. And meter, while some of it is pretty set, is certainly open for discussion and differences of opinion. It's all how it sounds to you and how well you can describe what it is you actually say. Have fun, Brad |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I love Robert Frost. Really, I do. No, I mean, really... But I find it physically impossible to say flower as one syllable. Same with Orange (and I lived there for twenty years ). |
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Larry A. Tilander Junior Member
since 1999-10-04
Posts 13Belleville, Ontario, Canada |
Syllable counting? You mean it doesn't come naturally? Write prose then. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Larry, the only things that come "naturally" are an urge to suckle and a fear of falling. Everything else is learned... |
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Sally S. Senior Member
since 1999-06-07
Posts 847Ohio |
I've learned that as soon as you feel you've grasped a subject, something else is added to the mix and confuses you once more! Honestly, this is terrific! I too will have to print this out to study, study, study.....whew!!! You know, when I began writing poetry I simply let the words flow together. If it "felt" right, I let it go. (I still do that) I recently posted a poem in the Open Forum and was told the poem was a "good example of anapestic tetrameter". Now, I didn't even know what that was until I read the explanation here. The poem just came together that way. (Yes, I'm brave enough to admit it...LOL) Now, I'm going to take a much more in-depth look at my work. I just hope that in doing so, it doesn't take away from the poem. I've always let the words come out. If I start to analyze...oh man, I'm scared just thinking about it. Wish me luck....LOL |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Just thought I'd bring this out of the woodwork for those who are new and might be interested. If anybody wants to continue the discussion of meter, I'll probably try to start another thread at the Philosophy forum. Two more points: I certainly don't want to label anybody but I think it safe to say that Nan can usefully be described as a strict metrist (and there's a brand new book out that defends that point of view) while I am a loose metrist (when I write in meter). Both positions have traditions and both have valid arguments. Of course, if somebody wants to debate . . .  Brad |
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hoot_owl_rn Member Patricius
since 1999-07-05
Posts 10750Glen Hope, PA USA |
Wow, I got in on this a bit too late...LOL. I'm going to have to print this off and take about two days to read it before I can even begin to comment, because as it stands I must have nt been doing my homework because I am totally lost. I just write, tap it out and hope it works...LOL |
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Munda Member Elite
since 1999-10-08
Posts 3544The Hague, The Netherlands |
Wow ! Thanks for bringing this back out of the woodwork ! |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
I know I am very, very late to this thread but I would appreciate any insights into a question about meter that, perhaps, was not addressed: How can different metrical types be choosen to help communicate a particular mood? I've been reading Poe, lately, and have noticed his metrical genius, particularly on how he uses it to re-enforce a specific mood. Any insights from the collective genius of Passions? See Philosophy 101 for my posting of this question < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 12-17-1999).] |
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crosscountry83 Member
since 2009-07-30
Posts 345 |
I just thought this could help a lot of people although it hasn't been posted on for a decade... *bump*  Rileigh |
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