The Alley |
Al Gore's all wet |
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
He said New York would be under water in 2050. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Is that a joke? lol Or are you suggesting that the idiot is right about climate change? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The statistical models were obviously too conservative and underestimated the impact rate of climate change. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
One swallow does not a summer make. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
If you think this is one swallow you aren't paying attention. Let's start with the name of the storm.... SANDY. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atlantic_hurricane_records#Number_of_tropical_storms_and_hurricanes_per_season |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, Gore was a genius.....concerning how to make millions on his own fabrications. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
What's in a name? Sandy is the 19th named storm this season, there were 19 last year and 19 the year before. So far this season there's been 10 storms large enough to be classed as hurricanes, three more than last year but two less than the year before. There's only been one major hurricane this season though – that's three less than last year and four less than the year before. As I said – one swallow... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Trend |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Proverb one swallow does not a summer make 1.One instance of an event (such as the arrival of a single bird) does not necessarily indicate a trend http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_swallow_does_not_a_summer_make |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Trend. The data is right in front of you. Proverbs are not science. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. And the full moon? . |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
A Global Warming a day Keeps the Ice Age away. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. And produces less deaths. . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: http://www.climatecentral.org/news/new-evidence-that-hurricanes-are-tied-to-global-warming-15114 Dated 10/15, just prior to Sandy. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'm not as cynical as Mike about Gore's motives, but I do think he jumped on a bandwagon - and he isn't alone in doing that. We can argue till the sun burns out about climate change. Of course there's climate change going on(as there always has been), and yes, the consensus seems to be that human activities are possibly speeding up, or even slightly altering, a process that might naturally have occurred. The worry for me is the growing evidence that greedy and unscrupulous people and companies all over the world are exacerbating the fear of change for their own ends, thereby potentially (no definitely) diverting valuable resources and time into schemes and ideas that do little more than make them more wealthy. There's FAR too much on emphasis on the supply side - producing more or producing differently is only really a solution if there is a seismic change in technological knowhow and very quickly, or if we can somehow very quickly start to tap into off-planet resources. Neither of these seem likely, so we really need to be focussing on the demand side. To people like Al Gore and all those guys who are hoping to make a killing out of global warming this is very unpalatable. Basically it means less growth, smaller populations, less consumption, less greed, and a simpler way of life for a smaller number of people. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: The emphasis is on the supply side because that's where the problem is. Consumers are stuck with the products that are available to them, unless you're expecting ordinary clerks, farmers, medical service providers, car salesmen, et al, to become backyard engineers and start providing their own solutions. The solutions already exist, are already efficacious, and already being deployed. If Al Gore wasn't investing in them can you imagine the howls from climate change deniers that he didn't believe in the solutions or he'd be investing in them. On the other hand, if Al Gore's motive is profit then there is a far easier path for him to follow, the Koch brothers would be more then happy to admit him to their ranks so the hydrocarbon billionaires can merely continue to profit from the monopoly they hold over consumers. But, since Al Gore puts all of the profits from his alternative energy investments back into solving the global climate change problem, personal profit is ostensibly the last thing on old idiot Al's mind. And, it's rather a good thing that we can't get resources from other planets because that would exacerbate and accelerate the problem. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"But, since Al Gore puts all of the profits from his alternative energy investments back into solving the global climate change problem, personal profit is ostensibly the last thing on old idiot Al's mind.".....LR Al Gore also talks to investors. Since 2007, the former Vice President in Bill Clinton's administration has been preaching the benefits of putting your money where his mouth is: Alternative energy. But if Al Gore has any message for investors today, it might very well be this: "Stay the hell away from alternative energy!" Gore's company files a quarterly report with the SEC that tells a different story about the 30 stocks in its portfolio. His company's public investments in wind, solar, biomass and other alternative energy to combat climate change are practically non-existent. But his portfolio is top-heavy in high-tech, medical instruments, and even more pedestrian investments in companies such as Amazon (AMZN), eBay (EBAY), Colgate Palmolive (CL), Nielsen (NLSN), Strayer University (STRA), and Qualcomm (QCOM). He is also big in China, with stakes in a big Chinese travel agency, CTrip, and China's largest medical equipment manufacturer, Mindray Medical. And if you want a piece of the natural gas pipeline game -- heavily dependent on the environmentally suspect fracking -- you can find that in Gore's portfolio as well with Quanta Services (PWR) http://www.thestreet.com/story/11727215/1/al-gore-walks-away-from-green-energy.html |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Reb Sorry to be flippant about Gore earlier. I'm cynical about him just as I am about practically all politicians where climate change and resources are concerned. But I admit, at least he tries to engage in the only way he knows how, unlike the Palins and Romneys of this world who are actively trying to destroy it. Fact is though many well meaning politicians and the majority of ignorant people are driven mainly by the fear whipped up by radical greeens and corporate vested interests. The "investment" in renewables is very largely tragically mismanaged, and panic has allowed profits to be made out of technologies that should never have been developed in the way they have. By far the most important facet though of this debacle is the way in which the emphasis has been on the supply side rather than tackling demand side expectations decades ago. I'm short on time now, could go on for pages This is a good article though: http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/Energy-Voices/2012/1102/Obama-Romney-avoid-hard-truths-about-energy "Neither candidate wants to inform Americans that we need to get used to living with less energy, or that we must adapt to being less mobile. Neither Mr. Obama nor Mr. Romney is willing to help the national conversation evolve from “How can we grow energy production?” toward “How can we shrink our appetites to fit what we can afford and what nature can sustainably supply?”" |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/wind_energys_ghosts_1.html "This whole wind energy mess just further illustrates how the American people have been played by their elected officials who bought into the "global warming" hysteria that spawned the push for wind energy in the first place. And now that the renewable energy tax subsidies are gradually coming to an end in some places, the true financial and economic viability, or lack of wind energy, is on display for the world to see. "It is all about the tax subsidies," writes Don Surber of the Charleston Daily Mail. "The blades churn until the money runs out. If an honest history is written about the turn of the 21st century, it will include a large, harsh chapter on how fears about global warming were overplayed for profit by corporations." Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034234_wind_turbines_abandoned.html#ixzz2BHp55p25 |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
LR, I agree trends are important and shouldn’t be ignored but the devil is in the detail, for instance if you look at the trend of major hurricanes per year since 1950 the number has decreased. In the face of that particular trend the argument that global warming increases the frequency of major hurricanes runs into a bit of a problem. That problem gets a whole lot worse when you look at the data in more detail. As each year passes scientists are a getting better at detecting tropical storms in remote parts of the oceans. They’re definitely more proficient than they were in 1950, so the increasing trend in tropical storm detection and non-landfall typhoons is expected but the expected increase in major hurricanes is conspicuous by its absence. Does global warming exist? Undoubtedly. Is that increase in global temperature likely to cause changes in weather patterns? Almost certainly. Do the historical accumulated cyclone energy figures and tropical storm frequency figures show a clear increase in hurricane frequency and strength? Unfortunately not. That’s not to say that they won’t later on down the line, it’s just that at this point there’s not enough comparative data to show a clear trend. That’s why those articles you posted aren’t full of scientists all confirming what Gore predicted, most of them have seen the first swallow but have no conclusive evidence that there’s a flock of them around the corner. Moonbeam, While reducing energy demand makes sense on paper I seriously doubt it’s going to happen, if you look back through history man has simply replaced one outdated or depleted energy source with another and I can’t see the future being any different. As oil runs out the cost will increase but the demand won’t diminish, alternative energy sources will become more viable and people, scrupulous and not so scrupulous, will rush to fill the demand and their pockets. The really clever ones will already have a toehold in the market and really clever governments will be doing everything they can to encourage them to do so. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Grinch, not quite sure that I agree with your data, because I don't know what you're looking at.. But if you look at this table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atlantic_hurricane_records#Seasonal_activity And the bar graph I posted before, it runs counter to what you're suggesting. Sure, there are outliers along the table, but the trend is obvious. The existence of outliers and randomness are important considerations in trying to evaluate any particular sample. Statistics don't give us ANY information about an individual sample, only about probabilities. Any credible statistician or in this particular case, climatolagist, has to say there are no fingerprints of global warming at the crime scene called Sandy, but the trend line clearly indicates Sandy is exactly the kind of storm that is probable. Moon, I completely disagree with any notion that any part of the solution calls for a downgrade in quality of life in regards to the conveniences we've become used to circa mid 20th century onward. I think there are certainly expectations of higher efficiency, but not reductions in kind. Now, as an engineer, I've been completely opposed to solar cells for 30 years, but not to solar power. In fact, we have enough solar power in a small patch of desert here in the US to power our entire country, if it's done properly. Solar cells are one of the least efficient methods, both in production and in deployment, because they only utilize the photons coming from the sun, and ignore the suns natural thermal radiation. Solar thermal is the way to go. Winds challenge is a grid that's a hundred years out of date. Because of the nature of capitalism, politics, and physics, it isn't surprising at all that early stutter steps have occurred. I'd point you to Tucker and Studebaker though. This is why the impetus is on governments and not markets to blaze these trails. Now we're looking at private sector space missions because of the early support for technological development . Besides that, fossil fuels ARE going to run out, climate change be damned. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. China, India and the rest of the developing world could care less. . . There was a NASA official who was pilloried for asking a simple question; who are we to determine the planet’s optimum environment? There are to be nine billion people on the planet and not because of the native West. They will need to be fed. Does a warmer or colder world facilitate that? I for one am all for global warming since apartment management denies me the opportunity to raise the temperature in my rooms having installed a thermostat which sets a max that means my wearing layers of clothes beginning in late September.. Also, as I understand it, increasing livestock passing gas is one of the primary contributors to the problem. . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-will-climate-change-impact-world-food-supplies |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. So doesn't this all translate into the developing world having too many babies? . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
No. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
No Huan - it translates into the developing world having too many babies and the developed world having too many babies and the developed world being irresponsibly greedy, wasteful and materialistic. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I think we should complain about the birthrate and population of automobiles that take up a lot more space than humans, especially when they are moving, and cause a lot more destruction to life and to the enviroment than most other means of getting around, before we complain about the number of humans themselves. Too many automobiles are what are taking up too much space in our cities, not too many humans. Likewise all the streets, parking lots, garages, car-dealerships, etc we need to try to accomodate this mechanical population alongside our own. The human world will be able to accomodate the humans better when we no longer corner ourselves into accomodating these machines so much, when we discover a much less world-overwhelming form of transportation. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I agree Ess. But WHY are there so many automobiles? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: You are of course right Grinch. But each replacement energy source has been bigger and more sapping of earth’s resources than the one before, and has been required to support a larger and larger demand. Resources are finite, unchecked demand isn’t. Illogical humanity, like any other plague or pest, won’t voluntarily decrease its demand – we will presumably eat and destroy ourselves back to a sustainable level. Logical humanity will need to intervene to ration resources compulsorily. That effectively means a global body tasked with putting in place a “fair” system of resource distribution at an individual level. You’ve read it in SciFi, our technology is reaching the point where individual actions can be closely monitored and some form of energy use rationing is, in some scenarios, inevitable imv. Alternative energy sources may become “more viable” but unless more resources are focussed on developing and enhancing a nuclear future instead of tinkering at the edges by wasting subsidy on “heath robinson” renewables, we won’t even dent the surface of the next century’s energy demands. quote: Being American Reb, of course you disagree with any sort of downgrading of lifestyle. Your nation is the most profligate on earth. But whether you like it or not, it’s coming, I don’t understand your problem with PV. PV may ignore thermal radiation, but panels are becoming more efficient, and more importantly much cheaper. If you can produce electricity for next to nothing use just part of a natural resource, what does it matter if you don’t use the remainder. Would you object to a small water turbine in a large river, purely because it doesn’t use the whole river? Anyway, how will solar thermal help? Doesn't it just produce hot water? The grid is the main problem in the US maybe, there are many other problems with wind in smaller countries. Intermittency is certainly an issue, but in general wind is probably the best example of the world effectively wasting resources enriching a few individuals for very little gain. Certainly not enough gain to make any impact on our energy problem. I agree about governments blazing trails – I agree about the sense of blazing trails into space. The trails they blazed in relation to renewables were however largely driven by fear and panic, and now we are paying for that mistaken trail blazing. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote: Because our culture is addicted to them and we set things up to increase the addiction instead of overcome it. Humans don't naturally need automobiles anymore than ants do, but people choose dependency on them and therefore pay a large price for it, giving far too much money and resources to a population of machines; money and resources that could be used a lot better helping provide nourishment and shelter to the poor people in the world. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ess I don’t think “addiction” is the reason any more than it is the reason we consume and buy a lot of other things. Humans, by nature, are quite greedy and innately selfish. If we can have something desirable, whether it is more food than we really need to sustain us, more electronic goods, more land, more clothes, better houses, more vacations, more entertainment, more and better automobiles, we will generally take it or buy it. So long as politicians and economists continue to pursue the holy grail of eternal economic growth, and so long as such growth is consumer driven, there will more, bigger and better of everything – until we ravage the planet and raw materials run out of course. Consuming bigger or more automobiles is no different really to dining out more and more frequently and eating more and more food which you don’t really need, or buying your kids more and more gifts. It’s all part of this ridiculous cycle of consumer driven growth. So yes, you are right, it is an addiction, an addiction to growth, not merely to automobiles. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
PV just substitutes one form of finite resources for other forms of finite resources, which in turn are energy intensive to manufacture, and degrade over time. Hot water has lots of uses, very powerful uses, like powering steam turbines. Coal, nuclear, just make hot water. A parabolic reflector can last a couple of hundred years, and a water pipe can last 50 or more. It's a simple, elegant, efficacious design. We have no need to downgrade anything. My objections to this viewpoint are not American, they are engineering/scientific. The Luddite viewpoint is as counterproductive as the denial of climate change. One day we may even have dilithium crystals. But I'll settle for solar thermal power plants and wireless induction vehicles, and preferably a lot more high- speed trains. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. http://www.photius.com/rankings/world2050_rank.html The only reason there any increases in the developed countries is immigration from the developing countries. . |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote: But they are quite different Moonbeam. We smother the landscape with concrete so the metal on wheels can go almost every where; they probably take up more surface space in the form of traffic, streets and parking lots than almost anything else in a populous city; they pollute; they are the means of hundreds of thousands of deaths every year; everything about them costs too much in enviromental sacrafices, resources and money; they clutter and dirty the surface of the earth; they result in the mindset of try to get everywhere in a big rush because people use them as their main mode of getting around instead of something on the side, etc. Automobiles and the culture and conditions that come with them, taken to such an extent as they are today, I believe are one of the most destructive aspects of our human world. It will be a blessing when we are able to find a technology that can replace them with something far less harmful. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I agree with everything you say Ess except the part where you say they are quite different. The passion for motor cars and every bad thing that derives from them is merely one example of a broader malaise imv. Ok, granted, a very visual and aggressive example, but nonetheless just part of it. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
"The only reason there any increases in the developed countries is immigration from the developing countries." Kinda misses the point. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
“PV just substitutes one form of finite resources for other forms of finite resources, which in turn are energy intensive to manufacture, and degrade over time.” Yes, just like the material used in solar thermal and many other so renewable technologies. As you probably know, in the PV industry, as in many others, great strides in recycling are being made. This is not an argument for not using PV in favour of other technologies. A better argument would be to question the viability vis a vis the prospect of a significant contribution to world energy demands of ALL the new so called renewables technologies. Are they not just the technologies of the playpen? Making a few people a LOT of money at the expense of the poor, until something realistic is found? “Hot water has lots of uses, very powerful uses, like powering steam turbines. Coal, nuclear, just make hot water. A parabolic reflector can last a couple of hundred years, and a water pipe can last 50 or more. It's a simple, elegant, efficacious design.” Smoke and mirrors eh Reb! I didn’t think you were serious about solar thermal as a major contributor to the grid, sorry. We are talking high pressure steam and LOTS of it, not hot water. Do you know what the biggest solar thermal plant produces right now? And how many there are of that size? Have you worked out how many there would need to be to make a significant dent in base load requirement? Or what happens at night? “We have no need to downgrade anything. My objections to this viewpoint are not American, they are engineering/scientific. The Luddite viewpoint is as counterproductive as the denial of climate change.” If it’s “Luddite” and counterproductive to emphasise the need to recycle and to match supply and demand then I’m happy be to be labelled so. It is however a largely Western and American viewpoint that regards changing a way of life as a step “back”. “One day we may even have dilithium crystals.” Heh. If only! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power 100x100 miles of useless desert in Nevada can power the entire US with solar thermal energy moon. CSP materials may wear out over time, but they are not 'consumed' like fossil fuels or PV. If you're talking about "downgrading" lifestyles, that's not merely adopting innovation or becoming more efficient. It's a denial that we have the capacity to solve the problem. /pip/Forum6/HTML/001287.html /pip/Forum6/HTML/001518.html#2 |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'm talking about a better match of human consumption to available resources. That means recycling and yes it may mean, for some who are wasteful in their habits, eg Westerners with 3 SUV's and detached heated houses with 10 rooms, "downgrading". For others, eg Africans in mud huts it may mean an upgrading. Production costs of PV have plummeted in the last few years and recycling is gradually making your argument about PV materials being "consumed" redundant. PV technology is much more elegant (fewer monolithic moving parts), less breakdown prone, less maintenance greedy than solar steam where there are still real problems to be solved in terms of the technical issues of turbine size and energy storage. Neither technology is however imv a "solution", but both are a LOT better than windmills. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
All energy sources should be used in a compromise between them to get the most efficient and safest use of them all, without becoming too dependent on and overdoing any of them individually. Where one has a weakness, another should be used to compensate for it. The sources of energy need to be put together as pieces of a puzzle that when put together well can last for the longest term possible, not segregated into pieces where we only use one piece and therefore become too subject to the weaknesses of it, the harm in using too much of it, running out of it, etc. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The price drop in PV's is temporary, a gimmick perpetrated by China moon. This is a technology that's dependent on semiconductors, which means mining operations and dangerous manufacturing chemicals. Recycling is actually less likely as the price of panel production continues to plunge. Still, they are better than fossil fuels, but not as efficacious as CSP long- term, which will be as cost effective as conventional coal-fired / natural gas plants by 2050, or sooner. I expect innovations to continue in both technologies, and there are applications for PV's, but long-term, the renewability of PV's is as problematic as fossil fuels. The shorter, greener path is CSP. The price drop in PVs has scared private investors, like google, out of the CSP market, which, again underscores the need for public/private investment until we can grandfather out conventional and nuclear production. But at least you now know what CSP is, and what it's capable of. There is no need to downgrade anyone's lifestyle. That's the good news! The bad news is, it's already too late. Sandy's are the new normal for generations to come. Further innovations will be required to deal with that, and solve food shortages. This is another conversation though. I really don't feel like discussing genetic modification. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Hi Reb, I think you are perhaps a little out of touch with advancements in PV recycling. Nearly all the materials can now be successfully and commercially recovered. I think the Germans (as usual) are leading in this. Like I say,from what I've read CSP is a very long way from making a serious dent in global enery requirements. In any event the discussion is only partly about electricity and energy generation - lifestyle changes are likely to be needed whatever, because as you say, it's too late. We may not agree on exactly why it's too late! but we sure as heck aren't going to be able to carry on as we are. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Nearly all, is how much money a gambler recovers in a casino. And, unless governments force recycling, it ain't gonna happen. CSP requires billions of initial investment. But that's pretty minimal when you consider a land mass the size of Lake Mead can produce ALL the electrical requirements for an energy hog like the US. And, we can do it all with electricity. Don't need anything else! |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
It just did happen, lol: http://pvrecycling.com/ and while I'm about it - on solar thermal: http://papundits.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/the-problem-with-solar-thermal-power/ and on windmills: To the nearest whole number, the percentage of the world’s energy that comes from wind turbines today is: zero. Despite the regressive subsidy (pushing pensioners into fuel poverty while improving the wine cellars of grand estates), despite tearing rural communities apart, killing jobs, despoiling views, erecting pylons, felling forests, killing bats and eagles, causing industrial accidents, clogging motorways, polluting lakes in Inner Mongolia with the toxic and radioactive tailings from refining neodymium, a ton of which is in the average turbine — despite all this, the total energy generated each day by wind has yet to reach half a per cent worldwide. If wind power was going to work, it would have done so by now… In a wish to be seen as modern, (politicians) will embrace all manner of fashionable causes. When this sets in — groupthink grips political parties, and the media therefore decide there is no debate — the gravest of errors can take root. The subsidising of useless wind turbines was born of a deep intellectual error, one incubated by failure to challenge conventional wisdom. It is precisely this consensus-worshipping, heretic-hunting environment where the greatest errors can be made. There are some 3,500 wind turbines in Britain, with hundreds more under construction. It would be a shame for them all to be dismantled. The biggest one should remain, like a crane on an abandoned quay, for future generations to marvel at. They will never be an efficient way to generate power. But there can be no better monument to the folly of mankind. http://papundits.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/wind-power-madness-little-pow er-huge-bills-scarred-landscape/ |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Your PA pundit is laughably misinformed moon. the ability to store solar energy to operate when the sun goes down is the hallmark of CSP plants. TonyfromOz is about as sourceable as using one of these pip threads. quote:http://greeneconomypost.com/concentrated-solar-power-answer-intermittency-concerns-13949.htm |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I didn't know about this form of storage. If as good as set out here it could indeed make a difference. I still think though that you have an engineer's love of all things unecessarily mechanical! Mirrors, steam, turbines and windings seem so much more complicated and prone to mechanical failure and maintenance problems, than just erecting PV arrays and cleaning them once in a while. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I understand your perspective moon. I just don't feel you're including what it takes to get that panel manufactured, transported, erected, decommissioned, and recycled. Its' moving parts are invisible. |
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