The Alley |
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Morons |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia ![]() |
quote: |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
The real question, Reb, seems to me to be the same as it's been for the past thousand years: Who decides what our children will be taught in school? Or, different side of the same coin, who decides what our children will NOT be taught in school? Either way it's phrased, that's a whole lot of power to give to anyone. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Provided they don't use tax dollars to peddle their religious beliefs, I don't care what they teach their kids. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Sorry, Reb, apparently I didn't make my point very clear. There is a very long tradition in academia granting tenured educators a LOT of leeway in what and how they teach. Most, I think, believe that freedom to educate, even when what is being taught sometimes goes against public opinion, is every bit as important to democracy as freedom of press or freedom of speech. When you put a tether on the teacher you quite literally control what future generations are allowed to think. I'm not trying to defend the Eternity Christian Academy. My point, rather, is that I'm not entirely sure where a line in the sand can be drawn. I'm quite sure you feel very confident in your condemnation of a Nessie curriculum in Louisiana, but I'm equally sure a lot of other people are just as confident of their opinions. Who gets to say what our children will (and won't) learn in school? I don't have an answer. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Is confidence a marker for validity Ron? Many are confident the white race is superior. Others that the earth is flat. It's absolutely their constitutional right to teach their own children what they want. But not with taxpayer dollars. There are also textbooks in Louisiana that say slavery wasn't that bad and the Klan was a force for good. Do we need to have children taught this to protect democracy? http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/07/photos-evangelical-curricula-louisiana-tax-dollars# |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Actually, Reb, yea, I think those two particular points you decided to address directly should indeed be taught in school. The alternative is to demonize people for the evils they inflict on the world. Slavery was evil; those engaging in it most often were not. The founding premise of the KKK was evil; those who followed it were still capable of doing good. Recognizing the humanity of people shouldn't be seen as an excuse for their actions, but their actions should never be used to characterize the whole of the person. All of which would be entirely beside the point if it didn't illustrate the very real potential for difference of opinions. Reb, you keep coming back to the "taxpayer dollars." Isn't that something of a red herring? I mean, don't you think we could go to ANY public school curriculum and find something about which we could disagree? Surely, you don't believe that everything taught in the publicly funded school system is sacrosanct? Again, Reb: Who gets to say what our children will and won't learn in school? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Taxpayer dollars are not a red herring, they are the main course. Exactly how much beating of slaves does it take to cross the cruelty threshold? Or, is just owning another person not bad enough on it's own? It's in the Bible, after all. Must be good. Right along with the four corners of the earth. Bob Jones has as much right to teach this point of view as a Madrasah has to teach that America is the great Satan, 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the American government to make Islam look bad, and that Jews eat babies and the Holocaust never happened, but not with tax dollars. The problem of public school textbooks is open to discussion because it is public, and the influence the Texas Board of Education poses to the rest of the country on that front is a similar subject. Private, religious schools, are not open to debate until my dollars are used to fund them. And there is that sticky problem with the establishment clause. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The last person who missed the subject that badly John, was Dick Cheney shooting a lawyer in the face instead of a duck! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “Fogel's and Engerman's research led them to conclude that investments in slaves generated high rates of return, masters held slaves for profit motives rather than for prestige, and slavery thrived in cities and rural areas alike. They also found that antebellum Southern farms were 35 percent more efficient overall than Northern ones and that slave farms in the New South were 53 percent more efficient than free farms in either North or South. This would mean that a slave farm that is otherwise identical to a free farm (in terms of the amount of land, livestock, machinery and labor used) would produce output worth 53 percent more than the free. On the eve of the Civil War, slavery flourished in the South and generated a rate of economic growth comparable to that of many European countries, according to Fogel and Engerman. They also discovered that, because slaves constituted a considerable portion of individual wealth, masters fed and treated their slaves reasonably well. Although some evidence indicates that infant and young slaves suffered much worse conditions than their freeborn counterparts, teenaged and adult slaves lived in conditions similar to -- sometimes better than -- those enjoyed by many free laborers of the same period.” http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/wahl.slavery.us More interesting tangents . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Ok John. Noted. You're on the record in the Lincoln was misguided camp. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. My parents were slaves . . . . |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: And THAT exemplifies my point, Reb, which remains the same whether education is public or private. Should the "problem" be open to discussion? Discussion by whom? Should I grant you the power to decide what my children will learn? Again and again: Who gets to say what our children will and won't learn in school? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
If it's public school or receives taxpayer funding, we do. http://www2.ed.gov/policy/fund/reg/fbci-reg.html#75532 |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: http://neatoday.org/2010/05/01/texas-educators-speak-out-against-new-social-studies-standards/ |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: We, Reb? You mean, you and I? Or is that a larger we? The public? The government? Can you, perhaps, be a little more specific about who it is you want to determine what my children and grandchildren will learn? What if "we" disagree? Never mind. It's really just a rhetorical question. I don't mean to put you or anyone else on the spot. I just want to make it clear that I feel this is a very dangerous issue and I think everyone should be aware of the dangers. Educators need to be protected from both politics and public opinion, each of which are fickle and frequently wrong. As I said before, I don't have the answers. But I feel strongly that instead of limiting what our children learn to just things we agree with, we should expand their curriculum widely enough to encourage free thinking. Mostly, though, we just need to be very, very careful. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I think it is a shame in many cases. But no matter how much "freedom" they have to teach such things, consequences will be dealt out. If an institution doesn't listen to legitimate claims the world around it brings up, if it doesn't correct errors or things that people have strong evidence to show are misleading or false or unduly biased, then less and less people will trust it and it will earn a bad reputation for teaching such things. People will choose to use better institutions, as they should. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
From the Creationism Museum: ![]() A match made in heaven ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
You and me unless we disagree, in which case I get to cast the tie breaker ![]() WE, on the other hand, do get to debate the matter and vote. Whatever is public will always also be political, but as we do with our other public policies our selection, that is to say the public's, needs to be limited to which professionals we want to entrust in conjunction with local elected school boards, you might be familiar with it, it's our current system. I'm not calling the system into question, only the NEW voucher plan Jindhal put in place. I don't think it's legal, or wise, to be investing in a generation of morons. If their parents want to make that investment tis fine by moi. And the flying spaghetti monster. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "People will choose to use better institutions, as they should" Not if the NEA has anything to say about it. . |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Really? This is great news. Next step, we've got to get a copy of its DNA. How many are there? What does it eat? Mating habits? What kind of ecology? Is it indigenous or did it come from somewhere else? How could something so big be hidden for so long? How does it get along in those murky depths? What is the relationship between a live plesiosaur and the fossilized ones? How many plesiosaur fossils do we have? Most people of a Darwinian bent would be very excited by this, but people of the same stripe wouldn't be excited that it was a dinosaur. We see dinosaurs all the time, we call them birds. ![]() Who should say what children learn? I don't know, kids tend to learn what they need and what they want. Instead of learning, what about motivating students to question? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I knew I forgot something. A plesiosaur is not a dinosaur. Marine reptiles arose before the dinosaurs. There are no marine dinosaurs (as far as we know). Ooops, I stand corrected: penguins can be considered marine dinosaurs. ![]() |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: There’d need to be a fairly substantial number to maintain a viable breeding population, in the high hundreds at least – to maintain genetic diversity and long term survival there’d need to be a few thousand. quote: If it’s a plesiosaur predominately fish, about 100 – 150lbs a day which means it would struggle to live in Loch Ness given the low fish stock. Of course it could have evolved vegetarian tendencies but Loch Ness is also a bit sparse in that department too. quote: Anybody’s guess but they’d give birth to live young if they’re related to plesiosaurs. quote: It had to come from somewhere else; Loch Ness was only formed 10,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age. quote: The children – just give them access to all the available facts and the tools to interpret them and they’ll sort it out for themselves. ![]() |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Grinch, Great stuff! Let's find out. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Nonsensical, the world is only 6000 years old! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Brad, I thought of you when I saw this story. Glad you browsed in! |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I’ve never met anyone in the UK who actually believes that the earth is that young, I guess there could be some but there can’t be more than six of them, the same goes for the ‘created in six days’ stuff too. Hang on.. 6 thousand years, 6 days, 6 people who believe it.. 666 That’s freaky – and the evidence mounts - NESSIE has 6 letters, Loch Ness is an average of 600 foot deep and I’ve been there 6 times! Doesn’t the bible talk about a beast whose number is 666 – could that ancient text be a reference to the mysterious ‘beast’ of Scotland? If it mentions it in the bible it must be true. I’m starting to believe, I mean you can’t ignore the evidence when it’s right in front of your eyes. ![]() |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
"But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say they can put knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes." Random thoughts here- Are we dealing with morons because the school is in the deep south run by "white trash"? Does it make a difference the school is ran by a black female pastor? Is it easier to call poor white folks morons rather than poor black people? We have a lot of Amish around here. I know quite a few. Are they morons? They have some pretty radical religious views. Not many orthodox Jews around these parts, are they morons also? Just thoughts. I can't say that public education in many communities in the US, including the deep south, is something to write home about. Why is it a problem in a number of Catholic schools that some Catholics believe there are too many non-Catholic students? Is it safe to assume non-Catholic students are not being sent there to be converted to Catholicism. Why are so many highly educated professional people home schooling their children? Is it wrong for a parent to not want his or her children indoctrinated by a educational system viewed as failing its basic mission, i.e. education. That being said, one of my children is a public school teacher and all four went to public schools, I just question the use of the term moron being utilized. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ever since Earth put her profile on spacebook all kinds of oddities have been seeking her out, and unfortunately, sometimes finding her. They can't resist such a young, flat, supermodel-shaped planet, especially those extraterresterial plesiosaurs and morons (a race of rons from the planet Mo) ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
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Stephanos![]()
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I still don't think many make a distinction between a "Young Earth Creation" position, and an "Old Earth Creation" position, which is still critical of Darwinian Evolution. I don't think the former is tenable, but I happen to think the latter is usually denied expression based (not upon lack of peer-reviewed articles, since virtually nothing about Darwinian Evolution beyond small scale variation among species, which ID proponents already agree with, is in the Peer Reviewed articles either) the upsetting of a kind of orthodoxy. Still, I don't want the state telling me what I have to teach my kids (within reason- anti-semitism would be worthy of some kind of intervention, I think, though I'm not sure how). Nor do I really want to tell others what to teach their kids (within reason). I guess the questions surrounding evolution aren't as important to me as they once were, though I'm still critical of it. The creation premise certainly isn't invalidated were Evolution to be a true description of things. It only answers a subset of questions, leaving others quite untouched. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Stephen, In this case: 1. Nessie exists. 2. Nessie is a plesiosaur. 3. Plesiosaurs are dinosaurs. _____________ 4. Therefore, evolution is debunked. Does the conclusion follow from the premises? Are the premises true? Does a sonar reading constitute reasonable evidence? "3" is untrue by definition. Plesiosaurs are not dinosaurs. Is the logic sound? I'd love to see someone work that one out. It is only possible if one starts with untrue premises. I suppose we'll eventually have to get back to the who as in "Who decides?" (wow, we're all postmodernists now) but is this argument, is this example, really one you want to defend. Does it buttress your own position? How's it going? |
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Stephanos![]()
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Brad, of course I'd rather not defend those particular views. My only point is that there's a wide spectrum of views diverging from the main-stream, and not all of them are bereft of reason and evidential support ... but yeah, who gets to decide for me and my family, or you and yours? If you take Darwin to an extreme (and many do), then it's the stronger who get to decide, and truth of theory becomes peripheral. That's why the mainstream view, that all of life arose through an impersonal process, is just another narrative that is too large to be troubled with a lot of verification. In that sense, Darwinism, reminds me somewhat of String Theory. There's some valid ideas there, but ... Doing well, Brad. How have you been? Stephen |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The problem Stephen, is that you're conflating the words theory, and theory String theory isn't a theory. ![]() |
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Stephanos![]()
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
LR, long time no see! having read over your wiki, I noted statements about the different kinds of theories, and of the varying strengths of respective theories ... So I can't mine your exact point from the link. I imagine it has something to do with the varying strengths of the Theories we've mentioned, and how the stronger is more justification for being called a "theory". I could be way off here ... you should elaborate. ![]() Stephen [This message has been edited by Stephanos (09-08-2012 12:00 AM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: This is the relevant passage to the discussion Stephen. The "Theory of Evolution" is a falsifiable, tested, scientific theory like, electromagnetic theory, for example. Most people are confused by the word theory in this context though and think it means that it is an unproven hypothesis. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. " Stephen Jay Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Yep! And we don't call it music theory because we're not sure whether or not pentatonic scales exist. ![]() |
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Stephanos![]()
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
LR, sure small scale change within species is falsifiable and conversely proveable, but the wholesale origin of organ systems and common descent really isn't. Ancient origins as such, spanned across billions of years is anything but problem free, and anything but demonstrable. Though Gould is among the faithful, I can quote him as well. There is simply honest disagreement about what is doubtful and what constitutes fact. I personally feel that String Theory and Neo-Darwinism are similar in one sense ... In being a malleable narrative that no perplexing data can thoroughly disrupt, Punctuated Equilibrium, since Gould was mentioned, being a prime example. I find the comparison of Evolution with Electromagnetic Theory to be incredible. One has certainly lacked, even if by an imposed necessity of conditions, the rigor of the other. And the obvious difference between Music Theory and Darwinism is that an E blues scale can be demonstrated, not in theory but in fact, by any second year guitar student. ;-) Stephen |
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TreasureFort Junior Member
since 2012-08-30
Posts 15 |
maybe tangential but Is school/schooling needed in the first place? Animals (except humans) don't go to school and they seem to be doing fine in animal kingdom. They radiate intelligence and also flash happiness (that is how it seems on Discovery and National Geographic anyway). They fight and get over it. They look for and find the things they need to survive and in the end they die. Somewhere between life and death they pass on life to the next generation. No difference there with educated humans. Agreed they don't build iPhones, Dreamliners and central heating systems, but their aim is well and truly met. ponder on or dismiss this thought... a choice exists therein! |
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