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Local Rebel
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0 posted 2012-08-08 03:47 PM



quote:

It sounds like a hoax, but it's apparently true: The Loch Ness Monster is on the science class syllabus for kids at Eternity Christian Academy in Westlake, Louisiana.
As reported by the Herald Scotland (which must track all Loch Ness-related news), a school that will receive tax-payer dollars, will teach kids that the mythological sea creature is real in order to debunk the theory of evolution. So pay attention: That will be on the test.
Eternity Christian Academy uses the  fundamentalist A.C.E. Curriculum to teach students "to see life from God's point of view."
According to the Herald, one textbook, Biology 1099, reads, "Are dinosaurs alive today? Scientists are becoming more convinced of their existence. Have you heard of the 'Loch Ness Monster' in Scotland? 'Nessie' for short has been recorded on sonar from a small submarine, described by eyewitnesses, and photographed by others. Nessie appears to be a plesiosaur."
Starting in the fall, thousands of schoolchildren will receive publicly funded vouchers to attend private schools, some of which are religious. Religious schools in Louisiana will receive public funding as part of a push from Louisiana's governor, Bobby Jindal, to move millions of tax dollars to cover tuition for private schools, including small bible-based church schools. Money will fund schools that have "bible-based math books" and biology texts that refute evolution.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/loch-ness-monster-used-debunk-evolution-state-funded-190816504.html




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Ron
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1 posted 2012-08-08 05:56 PM


The real question, Reb, seems to me to be the same as it's been for the past thousand years: Who decides what our children will be taught in school? Or, different side of the same coin, who decides what our children will NOT be taught in school?

Either way it's phrased, that's a whole lot of power to give to anyone.



Local Rebel
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2 posted 2012-08-08 06:24 PM


Provided they don't use tax dollars to peddle their religious beliefs, I don't care what they teach their kids.
Ron
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3 posted 2012-08-08 11:12 PM


Sorry, Reb, apparently I didn't make my point very clear.

There is a very long tradition in academia granting tenured educators a LOT of leeway in what and how they teach. Most, I think, believe that freedom to educate, even when what is being taught sometimes goes against public opinion, is every bit as important to democracy as freedom of press or freedom of speech. When you put a tether on the teacher you quite literally control what future generations are allowed to think.

I'm not trying to defend the Eternity Christian Academy. My point, rather, is that I'm not entirely sure where a line in the sand can be drawn. I'm quite sure you feel very confident in your condemnation of a Nessie curriculum in Louisiana, but I'm equally sure a lot of other people are just as confident of their opinions. Who gets to say what our children will (and won't) learn in school?

I don't have an answer.



Local Rebel
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4 posted 2012-08-09 06:18 AM


Is confidence a marker for validity Ron?  Many are confident the white race is superior.  Others that the earth is flat.  It's absolutely their constitutional right to teach their own children what they want.  But not with taxpayer dollars.  

There are also textbooks in Louisiana that say slavery wasn't that bad and the Klan was a force for good.  Do we need to have children taught this to protect democracy?
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/07/photos-evangelical-curricula-louisiana-tax-dollars#

Ron
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5 posted 2012-08-09 11:29 AM


quote:
There are also textbooks in Louisiana that say slavery wasn't that bad and the Klan was a force for good.  Do we need to have children taught this to protect democracy?

Actually, Reb, yea, I think those two particular points you decided to address directly should indeed be taught in school. The alternative is to demonize people for the evils they inflict on the world. Slavery was evil; those engaging in it most often were not. The founding premise of the KKK was evil; those who followed it were still capable of doing good. Recognizing the humanity of people shouldn't be seen as an excuse for their actions, but their actions should never be used to characterize the whole of the person.

All of which would be entirely beside the point if it didn't illustrate the very real potential for difference of opinions.

Reb, you keep coming back to the "taxpayer dollars." Isn't that something of a red herring? I mean, don't you think we could go to ANY public school curriculum and find something about which we could disagree? Surely, you don't believe that everything taught in the publicly funded school system is sacrosanct?

Again, Reb: Who gets to say what our children will and won't learn in school?



Local Rebel
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6 posted 2012-08-09 03:29 PM


quote:


5. Slave masters were nice guys: "A few slave holders were undeniably cruel. Examples of slaves beaten to death were not common, neither were they unknown. The majority of slave holders treated their slaves well."—United States History for Christian Schools, 2nd ed., Bob Jones University Press, 1991



Taxpayer dollars are not a red herring, they are the main course.  Exactly how much beating of slaves does it take to cross the cruelty threshold?  Or, is just owning another person not bad enough on it's own?  It's in the Bible, after all. Must be good.   Right along with the four corners of the earth.

Bob Jones has as much right to teach this point of view as a Madrasah has to teach that America is the great Satan, 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the American government to make Islam look bad, and that Jews eat babies and the  Holocaust never happened, but not with tax dollars.

The problem of public school textbooks is open to discussion because it is public, and the influence the Texas Board of Education poses to the rest of the country on that front is a similar subject.  Private, religious schools, are not open to debate until my dollars are used to fund them.  And there is that sticky problem with the establishment clause.

Huan Yi
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7 posted 2012-08-09 05:02 PM


.

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm


.

Local Rebel
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8 posted 2012-08-09 05:21 PM


The last person who missed the subject that badly John, was Dick Cheney shooting a lawyer in the face instead of a duck!
Huan Yi
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9 posted 2012-08-09 05:39 PM


.


“Fogel's and Engerman's research led them to conclude that investments in slaves generated high rates of return, masters held slaves for profit motives rather than for prestige, and slavery thrived in cities and rural areas alike. They also found that antebellum Southern farms were 35 percent more efficient overall than Northern ones and that slave farms in the New South were 53 percent more efficient than free farms in either North or South. This would mean that a slave farm that is otherwise identical to a free farm (in terms of the amount of land, livestock, machinery and labor used) would produce output worth 53 percent more than the free. On the eve of the Civil War, slavery flourished in the South and generated a rate of economic growth comparable to that of many European countries, according to Fogel and Engerman. They also discovered that, because slaves constituted a considerable portion of individual wealth, masters fed and treated their slaves reasonably well. Although some evidence indicates that infant and young slaves suffered much worse conditions than their freeborn counterparts, teenaged and adult slaves lived in conditions similar to -- sometimes better than -- those enjoyed by many free laborers of the same period.”

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/wahl.slavery.us


More interesting tangents

.


Local Rebel
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10 posted 2012-08-10 03:40 AM


Ok John.  Noted.  You're on the record in the Lincoln was misguided camp.
Huan Yi
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Waukegan
11 posted 2012-08-10 08:21 AM


.


My parents were slaves . . .


.

Ron
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12 posted 2012-08-10 09:16 AM


quote:
The problem of public school textbooks is open to discussion because it is public, and the influence the Texas Board of Education poses to the rest of the country on that front is a similar subject.

And THAT exemplifies my point, Reb, which remains the same whether education is public or private. Should the "problem" be open to discussion? Discussion by whom? Should I grant you the power to decide what my children will learn?

Again and again: Who gets to say what our children will and won't learn in school?

Local Rebel
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13 posted 2012-08-10 09:47 AM


If it's public school or receives taxpayer funding, we do.
http://www2.ed.gov/policy/fund/reg/fbci-reg.html#75532

Local Rebel
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14 posted 2012-08-10 10:12 AM


quote:

Take the politics out and put the teachers back in – that was the message Rita Haecker, president of the Texas State Teachers Association, delivered to the Mexican American Legislative caucus in Austin on Wednesday. The caucus, 44 members of the Texas House of Representatives, held a day-long session to hear concerns about the new social studies standards written by the state board of education (SBOE).
The standards, preliminarily approved by the SBOE on March 12, sparked a controversy that has reached far beyond Texas borders. Led by a powerful bloc of conservative members, the board made a series of changes to the curriculum that critics deride as a right-wing ideological assault on the state’s public schools.
Specifically, they argue that the standards skimp on historical contributions by minorities, trumpet an overtly Christian perspective, and aggressively promote conservative political figures and “American exceptionalism.”
Because Texas is the largest purchasers of textbooks nationally, the changes, if approved, could be felt across the country.
With the standards due for final approval on May 21, the Mexican American Legislative caucus invited interested parties, including academics, educators, and publishing groups to testify about the changes. Although the committee cannot take any specific action to derail the revisions, members hoped that the profound concerns raised during the meeting will help build public opposition.
Throughout the process, TSTA President Haecker and others repeatedly spoke out against the SBOE’s enormous power in rewriting the standards and, by extension, social studies textbooks.
“The ultra-conservative members of the board have a narrow ideological view that not only ignores history but also ignores the changing world,” Haecker told the committee on Wednesday.
For example, Haecker said, these members “are constantly painting Hispanics in negative terms as foreigners and illegal immigrants, and they are discounting the roles of African Americans as well.”
Many historians agree. In a joint letter to the SBOE on April 13, a group of Texas history professors accused the board of  “distorting the historical record and the functioning of American society.”
Don McLeroy, outgoing board member and leader of the conservative bloc, believes the revisions are unpopular merely “because they challenge the ideology of the left … which is diametrically opposed to the our founding principles.”
With the final approval date looming, however, opponents of the standards are urging lawmakers to ask the board to start over and implement a more inclusive review process.
“We must develop a system,” Haecker said, “ that is based on the best thinking of our teachers and scholars, not the small political muscle of a small group of people.”


http://neatoday.org/2010/05/01/texas-educators-speak-out-against-new-social-studies-standards/

Ron
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15 posted 2012-08-10 11:38 AM


quote:
If it's public school or receives taxpayer funding, we do.

We, Reb? You mean, you and I? Or is that a larger we? The public? The government? Can you, perhaps, be a little more specific about who it is you want to determine what my children and grandchildren will learn? What if "we" disagree?

Never mind. It's really just a rhetorical question. I don't mean to put you or anyone else on the spot. I just want to make it clear that I feel this is a very dangerous issue and I think everyone should be aware of the dangers.

Educators need to be protected from both politics and public opinion, each of which are fickle and frequently wrong. As I said before, I don't have the answers. But I feel strongly that instead of limiting what our children learn to just things we agree with, we should expand their curriculum widely enough to encourage free thinking. Mostly, though, we just need to be very, very careful.



Essorant
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16 posted 2012-08-10 02:08 PM


I think it is a shame in many cases.  But no matter how much "freedom" they have to teach such things,  consequences will be dealt out.  If an institution doesn't listen to legitimate claims the world around it brings up, if it doesn't correct errors or things that people have strong evidence to show are misleading or false or unduly biased, then less and less people will trust it and it will earn a bad reputation for teaching such things.  People will choose to use better institutions, as they should.  

Essorant
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17 posted 2012-08-10 02:37 PM


From the Creationism Museum:



A match made in heaven


Local Rebel
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18 posted 2012-08-10 02:56 PM


You and me unless we disagree, in which case I get to cast the tie breaker

WE, on the other hand, do get to debate the matter and vote.  Whatever is public will always also be political, but as we do with our other public policies our selection, that is to say the public's, needs to be limited to which professionals we want to entrust in conjunction with local elected school boards, you might be familiar with it, it's our current system.

I'm not calling the system into question, only the NEW voucher plan  Jindhal put in place.  I don't think it's legal, or wise, to be investing in a generation of morons.  If their parents want to make that investment tis fine by moi.  And the flying spaghetti monster.

Huan Yi
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19 posted 2012-08-10 04:28 PM


.


"People will choose to use better institutions, as they should"


Not if the NEA has anything to say about it.


.

Brad
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20 posted 2012-08-14 05:20 PM


quote:
"Are dinosaurs alive today? Scientists are becoming more convinced of their existence. Have you heard of the 'Loch Ness Monster' in Scotland? 'Nessie' for short has been recorded on sonar from a small submarine, described by eyewitnesses, and photographed by others. Nessie appears to be a plesiosaur.


Really?  This is great news. Next step, we've got to get a copy of its DNA. How many are there?  What does it eat?  Mating habits?  What kind of ecology? Is it indigenous or did it come from somewhere else?  How could something so big be hidden for so long?  How does it get along in those murky depths?  What is the relationship between a live plesiosaur and the fossilized ones?  How many plesiosaur fossils do we have?

Most people of a Darwinian bent would be very excited by this, but people of the same stripe wouldn't be excited that it was a dinosaur.

We see dinosaurs all the time, we call them birds.

Who should say what children learn?  I don't know, kids tend to learn what they need and what they want.  Instead of learning, what about motivating students to question?

Brad
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21 posted 2012-08-14 05:47 PM


I knew I forgot something.

A plesiosaur is not a dinosaur. Marine reptiles arose before the dinosaurs.  There are no marine dinosaurs (as far as we know).

Ooops, I stand corrected: penguins can be considered marine dinosaurs.

Grinch
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22 posted 2012-08-14 05:59 PM



quote:
How many are there?

There’d need to be a fairly substantial number to maintain a viable breeding population, in the high hundreds at least – to maintain genetic diversity and long term survival there’d need to be a few thousand.

quote:
What does it eat?


If it’s a plesiosaur predominately fish, about 100 – 150lbs a day which means it would struggle to live in Loch Ness given the low fish stock. Of course it could have evolved vegetarian tendencies but Loch Ness is also a bit sparse in that department too.

quote:
Mating habits?


Anybody’s guess but they’d give birth to live young if they’re related to plesiosaurs.

quote:
Is it indigenous or did it come from somewhere else?


It had to come from somewhere else; Loch Ness was only formed 10,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.

quote:
Who should say what children learn?


The children – just give them access to all the available facts and the tools to interpret them and they’ll sort it out for themselves.


Brad
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23 posted 2012-08-15 10:19 AM


Grinch,

Great stuff!

Let's find out.

Local Rebel
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24 posted 2012-08-15 04:23 PM


quote:

It had to come from somewhere else; Loch Ness was only formed 10,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.



Nonsensical, the world is only 6000 years old!


Local Rebel
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25 posted 2012-08-15 04:24 PM


Brad, I thought of you when I saw this story.  Glad you browsed in!
Grinch
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Whoville
26 posted 2012-08-15 06:44 PM



quote:
Nonsensical, the world is only 6000 years old!


I’ve never met anyone in the UK who actually believes that the earth is that young, I guess there could be some but there can’t be more than six of them, the same goes for the ‘created in six days’ stuff too. Hang on.. 6 thousand years, 6 days, 6 people who believe it..

666

That’s freaky – and the evidence mounts - NESSIE has 6 letters, Loch Ness is an average of 600 foot deep and I’ve been there 6 times!

Doesn’t the bible talk about a beast whose number is 666 – could that ancient text be a reference to the mysterious ‘beast’ of Scotland? If it mentions it in the bible it must be true.

I’m starting to believe, I mean you can’t ignore the evidence when it’s right in front of your eyes.


Tim
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27 posted 2012-08-31 11:01 PM


"But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say they can put knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes."

Random thoughts here- Are we dealing with morons because the school is in the deep south run by "white trash"?  Does it make a difference the school is ran by a black female pastor? Is it easier to call poor white folks morons rather than poor black people?
We have a lot of Amish around here.  I know quite a few.  Are they morons?  They have some pretty radical religious views.
Not many orthodox Jews around these parts, are they morons also?
Just thoughts.
I can't say that public education in many communities in the US, including the deep south, is something to write home about.
Why is it a problem in a number of Catholic schools that some Catholics believe there are too many non-Catholic students?  Is it safe to assume non-Catholic students are not being sent there to be converted to Catholicism.
Why are so many highly educated professional people home schooling their children?
Is it wrong for a parent to not want his or her children indoctrinated by a educational system viewed as failing its basic mission, i.e. education.
That being said, one of my children is a public school teacher and all four went to public schools, I just question the use of the term moron being utilized.


Local Rebel
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28 posted 2012-09-02 02:56 AM


quote:


moron  (ˈmɔːrɒn)
 
— n
1. a foolish or stupid person
2. a person having an intelligence quotient of between 50 and 70, able to work under supervision
 


Essorant
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29 posted 2012-09-02 03:30 PM


Ever since Earth put her profile on spacebook all kinds of oddities have been seeking her out, and unfortunately, sometimes finding her.  They can't resist such a young, flat, supermodel-shaped planet, especially those extraterresterial plesiosaurs and morons (a race of rons from the planet Mo)
Local Rebel
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30 posted 2012-09-02 08:04 PM




Stephanos
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31 posted 2012-09-03 12:49 PM


I still don't think many make a distinction between a "Young Earth Creation" position, and an "Old Earth Creation" position, which is still critical of Darwinian Evolution.  I don't think the former is tenable, but I happen to think the latter is usually denied expression based (not upon lack of peer-reviewed articles, since virtually nothing about Darwinian Evolution beyond small scale variation among species, which ID proponents already agree with, is in the Peer Reviewed articles either) the upsetting of a kind of orthodoxy.


Still, I don't want the state telling me what I have to teach my kids (within reason- anti-semitism would be worthy of some kind of intervention, I think, though I'm not sure how).  Nor do I really want to tell others what to teach their kids (within reason).  I guess the questions surrounding evolution aren't as important to me as they once were, though I'm still critical of it.  The creation premise certainly isn't invalidated were Evolution to be a true description of things.  It only answers a subset of questions, leaving others quite untouched.      

Brad
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32 posted 2012-09-03 06:52 PM


Stephen,

In this case:

1. Nessie exists.

2. Nessie is a plesiosaur.

3. Plesiosaurs are dinosaurs.

_____________

4. Therefore, evolution is debunked.

Does the conclusion follow from the premises?  

Are the premises true?

Does a sonar reading constitute reasonable evidence?

"3" is untrue by definition.  Plesiosaurs are not dinosaurs.

Is the logic sound?  I'd love to see someone work that one out.  It is only possible if one starts with untrue premises.

I suppose we'll eventually have to get back to the who as in "Who decides?" (wow, we're all postmodernists now) but is this argument, is this example, really one you want to defend. Does it buttress your own position?

How's it going?

Stephanos
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33 posted 2012-09-06 03:46 PM


Brad, of course I'd rather not defend those particular views.  My only point is that there's a wide spectrum of views diverging from the main-stream, and not all of them are bereft of reason and evidential support ... but yeah, who gets to decide for me and my family, or you and yours?  If you take Darwin to an extreme (and many do), then it's the stronger who get to decide, and truth of theory becomes peripheral.  That's why the mainstream view, that all of life arose through an impersonal process, is just another narrative that is too large to be troubled with a lot of verification.  In that sense, Darwinism, reminds me somewhat of String Theory.  There's some valid ideas there, but ...


Doing well, Brad.  How have you been?  

Stephen  

Local Rebel
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34 posted 2012-09-07 11:28 AM


The problem Stephen, is that you're conflating the words theory, and theory

String theory isn't a theory.  

Stephanos
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35 posted 2012-09-07 10:51 PM


LR, long time no see!  

having read over your wiki, I noted statements about the different kinds of theories, and of the varying strengths of respective theories ... So I can't mine your exact point from the link.  I imagine it has something to do with the varying strengths of the Theories we've mentioned, and how the stronger is more justification for being called a "theory".  I could be way off here ...  you should elaborate.  

Stephen

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (09-08-2012 12:00 AM).]

Local Rebel
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36 posted 2012-09-10 12:43 PM


quote:

Both scientific laws and scientific theories are produced from the scientific method through the formation and testing of hypotheses, and can predict the behavior of the natural world. Both are typically well-supported by observations and/or experimental evidence.[23] However, scientific laws are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[24] Scientific theories are broader in scope, and give overarching explanations of how nature works and why it exhibits certain characteristics. Theories are supported by evidence from many different sources, and may contain one or several laws.[25]
A common misconception is that scientific theories are rudimentary ideas that will eventually graduate into scientific laws when enough data and evidence has been accumulated. A theory does not change into a scientific law with the accumulation of new or better evidence. A theory will always remain a theory; a law will always remain a law.[23][26]
Theories and laws are also distinct from hypotheses. Unlike hypotheses, theories and laws may be simply referred to as scientific fact.[27][28]




This is the relevant passage to the discussion Stephen.  The "Theory of Evolution" is a falsifiable, tested, scientific theory like, electromagnetic theory, for example.  Most people are confused by the word theory in this context though and think it means that it is an unproven hypothesis.

Essorant
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37 posted 2012-09-12 03:39 PM



"Well, evolution is a theory.  It is also a fact.  And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty.   Facts are the world's data.   Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. "

Stephen Jay Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory

Local Rebel
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38 posted 2012-09-12 03:58 PM


Yep!

And we don't call it music theory because we're not sure whether or not pentatonic scales exist.  

Stephanos
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39 posted 2012-09-13 12:13 PM


LR, sure small scale change within species is falsifiable and conversely proveable, but the wholesale origin of organ systems and common descent really isn't.  Ancient origins as such, spanned across billions of years is anything but problem free, and anything but demonstrable.  Though Gould is among the faithful, I can quote him as well.  There is simply honest disagreement about what is doubtful and what constitutes fact.  I personally feel that String Theory and Neo-Darwinism are similar in one sense ... In being a malleable narrative that no perplexing data can thoroughly disrupt,  Punctuated Equilibrium, since Gould was mentioned, being a prime example.  I find the comparison of Evolution with Electromagnetic Theory to be incredible.  One has certainly lacked, even if by an imposed necessity of conditions, the rigor of the other.

And the obvious difference between Music Theory and Darwinism is that an E blues scale can be demonstrated, not in theory but in fact, by any second year guitar student.   ;-)

Stephen

TreasureFort
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40 posted 2012-09-13 09:31 AM


maybe tangential but

Is school/schooling needed in the first place?

Animals (except humans) don't go to school and they seem to be doing fine in animal kingdom. They radiate intelligence and also flash happiness (that is how it seems on Discovery and National Geographic anyway). They fight and get over it. They look for and find the things they need to survive and in the end they die. Somewhere between life and death they pass on life to the next generation. No difference there with educated humans.

Agreed they don't build iPhones, Dreamliners and central heating systems, but their aim is well and truly met.

ponder on or dismiss this thought... a choice exists therein!

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