»
Discussion
»
The Alley
»
Apollo 8
| The Alley |
|
Apollo 8 |
|
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA 
|
Today is the anniversary of Apollo 8. For those of you who don't remember it (or were not yet born)... Apollo 8 was the first manned voyage to achieve a velocity sufficient to allow escape from the gravitational field of planet Earth; the first to enter the gravitational field of another celestial body; the first to escape from the gravitational field of another celestial body; and, the first manned voyage to return to planet Earth from another celestial body. One part that I find interesting - and my reason for posting this thread is this: During the ten times that they orbited the moon, they read the first ten verses of Genesis, which was broadcast to Earth. They also wished everyone a Merry Christmas. Would that happen today? If the space program were to complete some monumental achievement, would they be allowed to make religious references, read from the Bible, wish Merry Christmas to those listening on Earth...or would there be groups issuing complaints about separation of church and state, using the word Christmas from a government-funded agency, or non-Christians or Jews complaining about reading from the Bible? Should they have done it in 1968? Why didn't they? Why would they do it now? What does that say about the progression of our society? Would they astronauts be directed to say "Happy holidays to all", instead of Merry Christmas, so as to be politically corrrect? Are we more enlightened now or touchier? Is this good? |
||
| © Copyright 2008 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Personally I couldn’t care less what they recite but I understand the move towards trying not to alienate large proportions of the population by elevating one religion above others. Maybe they could go for ten recitations from ten holy books if there’s ever a next time, maybe throwing in a few more “happy *insert religious festival here*“ greetings after each revolution. Or they could simply stick to scientific data - though that might be seen as pandering to those darn atheistic types. I think it’s a bit of a moot point though. The reality is that they won’t be reading anything in future Mike, other than redundancy notices once Obama eviscerates NASA’s budget.  |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"but I understand the move towards trying not to alienate large proportions of the population by elevating one religion above others" Which ironically is particularly Christian . . . PS Son of God or one of history’s most extraordinary and influential men for good, Happy Birthday Christ. |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: And apparently very good at alienating people. Happy Chanukah |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I believe John's reference meant that trying not to alienate people is a Christian trait. therefore your rebuttal makes little sense, grinch....sorry to interfere with an attempt at controversy. Merry Christmas to all...and may we go through one night without sarcasm or argument. It will pass quickly enough |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
humbug!! I can be wrong once can't I, after all it is Christmas Have a nice one John and you too Mike. |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why Genesis? |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Perhaps it had something to do with in the beginning God created heaven and earth? Just a guess.... |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Happy New Year PiPsters! I think "space" travel requires an open mind into the infinite expanse of matter. I mean they were traveling in a space craft named after: "1. the ancient Greek and Roman god of light, healing, music, poetry, prophecy, and manly beauty; the son of Leto and brother of Artemis. 2. a very handsome young man." (dictionary.com) and no one was sure they'd make it home. So it makes sense to me that they would practice whatever faith they had for personal reasons whether anyone on earth objected or not. Not much different really than that of a seaman in treacherous seas and storms. A person will do what they feel moved to do in that moment, but Genesis was a poetic choosing, even if staged, being they were the first to see our celestial planet from a distance. My guess is the current space programs encourage crew members to be embracing of their personal/religious beliefs, if any, because each mission is still filled with perilous risk. So it seems highly unfair for outsiders to man any kind of judgment upon those that risk their lives for discovery. But again, there are those that thought landing a man on the moon would cause the end of the world. How many times have we failed to cause/witness the doom of the world now? I think the new doom date is 2012, isn't it? anywho, I wouldn't have been brave enough to sit in that pod and greatly admire the men that did. cheers to you Mike.  |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Regina! You are not taking into consideration the implications of the government using this opportunity to put Christianity on such a grand center stage, the callousness for the feelings of practitioners of other religions...or none. You're not taking into account the young minds being thrown into confusion, the defensiveness, or even anger, of middle and far eastern countries, the slap in the face to the muslims everywhere, or Taoists, or Buddhists, etc, etc, etc. The political incorrectness of the situation escapes you. You have simply keyed in on the bravery of a few of our greatest heros, making sincere statements of the faith they believe in while looking down at a sight few had ever seen. Thank God! Happy New Year, Regina  |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote: Maybe, but mind you the "earth" in Genesis is a translation of the Hebrew erets "land", referring to the solid and flat-like land under our feet as distinct from water, fire, and air. It doesn't mean "earth" in the sense of a celestial "planet" or "globe" named Earth. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
My guess would be that the astronauts didn't sit down to decipher the word erets and try to decide whether it meant dirt or a planet. My guess would be that the phrase "God created heaven and earth" was taken to mean what they were looking at....just a guess. I don't consider myself overly religious as far as organized religions go but I think it would be hard to be there, looking around at the galaxy and looking down at the beauty of the earth and not believe that it was part of some grand design. |
||
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
That may be true Essorant, but the Genesis account includes the creation of the "Heavens", and overall definitely describes an ex nihilo creation of everything there is. Are you suggesting that it only says that God created dirt? Sorry, I just wanted to point out the their usage of Genesis was cosmologically correct, even if politically incorrect by today's standards ... just a trifle. Stephen |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No, I am just saying I don't think the two correspond very well. For Earth, as the planet itself, was far from the beginning of the whole Universe. But the "heavens and earth" of the bible is meant to be just as you say "everything there is" and the beginning of all, the heavens being the "skies" and the earth being the "land" of the universe, not one particular planet as distinct from others or from the rest of the universe. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Hi, Mike, and sorry I haven't been more active. Holiday season for my retail biz & all ya know.... Let me try to simplify the answer: 80% of all Americans believe in the presence of 'God'. As far as I know, ALL religions believe in 'God. How is that a violation of church and state, if you define the 'violation' as preferring ONE religion over another? Jeff |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Beats me, Jeff. I'm with you! |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
It is important to stay honest with one's own internal value system. If that means wishing someone a happy holiday that happens to be your belief, then people on the receiving end of the wish should recognize it for what it is, and not try to project their own bias into some offshoot of being offended. The 'offense' is not tolerating the sender's wishes, if the wishes are given with good intent. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Don't know if you noticed, but the US Government has designated December 25th as a Federal Holiday named 'Christmas Day' holiday. States or fed or private businesses are NOT obligated to observe this holiday in any way. The fact that 95% of all business VOLUNTARILY close on Dec. 25th should speak volumes for the necessity of the Holiday. It is a re-affirmation of hope for many, for the upcoming year. Oh, I am wrong, on previous post: it is NOT 80% who believe in God. It is 92%. I stand corrected. 5% do not believe in God, 3% undecided. How in the flying heck this measly 5% got sooooo much power in dictating the hows/why of displays of religion, is beyond my powers of understanding. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
If that means wishing someone a happy holiday that happens to be your belief, then people on the receiving end of the wish should recognize it for what it is, and not try to project their own bias into some offshoot of being offended. The 'offense' is not tolerating the sender's wishes, if the wishes are given with good intent. Obviously you have not spent much time in the alley, Jeff. Let me tell you how this will go. You will make the perfectly good statement above and someone will come back that the right of one is just as important as the right of the other 99 and, if you don't believe so, you are a selfish, miserable human being. You will hear that people should not have to recognize it, or even be forced to ignore it when, in fact, they should not be subjected to it at all. Should you bring up the point that the vast majority should carry some weight, you will be reminded that majority has nothing to do with rights. Before long it will go out to so many tangents no one will remember what the topic even was. That's the way things work here. Welcome to the Alley.. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
I hear ya loud and clear, Mike. I'm no stranger to the arguments of 'being fair' to others. After all, I had a radio talk show for a few years. Opinions are as old as man, the only thing that changes is the updating of them. Having heard the 'pre-arguments' you have listed in previous post, my reply is a simple one: As a Libertarian who believes strongly in individual rights, I am also a believer in the 'will of the people' to prevail. We have far too much 'the will of the ONE' that serves as public record all too frequently. Call me selfish, then, I don't care. I believe that when the ONE needs backing, that true-good-hearted people will see it for what it is: important, and will make the correct decision that helps the minority in that situation. (Let it be said, that Congress does NOT constitute 'true-good-hearted people', imho.) |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
sigh I'm just finding it very hard to get worked up over this year after year. So don't mind me--it's not exactly my favorite holiday, or even a Holy Day to me. I send regards and respect to those who do, but Christmas and Wishmas has been confused for a very long time... |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Serenity, perhaps it is not your dilemma at all, and you only make it so. If you are not moved by the spirit of the Lord in this holiday, it may not be your fight at all. What I mean is that people fight fights outside of their own arena, frequently. This 'debate' if you want to call it that, is the right of tradition to exist. Go anywhere in Europe: I implore you: and tell them that their traditions are not politically correct, then listen to their reactions. Why are we, as a nation, so quick to dispell our own traditions?: as soon as a tradition is established, there are special interest groups that think their will should be imposed upon tradition as well as the will of the people. I find it appalling that the United States should somehow be ASHAMED of Christmas because it is a religious holiday. It exists for one reason: because the government realized that almost all of its people celebrated the birth of Christ and wished to give those people the day off in which to celebrate it without being penalized. How can one look at all the sentimental postings here at PIP and not see how important this simple day is to whole families? Traditions are critical because they are the bones of history upon which a nation is hung. There are whole groups who do nothing but tear down established traditions for no other reason than just to do it in the name of progressive change. One cannot simply exist without the other. Religious holidays are ALWAYS exclusionary to other groups, yet EVERY NATION in the world has at least one of them on their calendar. It agonizes me everytime I say Merry Christmas to someone, and they fumble for the PC response, especially if I tell some friend that happens to work behind some business counter. I wish I could count all the times they said: our management forbids us from saying anything other than 'Happy Holidays.' And I instantly say: '...or what? you'll get fired? for casually expressing your religious beliefs at work?" Their look of confusion, usually melts, as they stage-whisper back to me: Merry Christmas, as if in affirmation that what I am saying reaffirms their strongest convictions. Christmas is the finest of all holidays: people give generously, they seek out family, most say that they feel the Lord's Presence more strongly at Christmas. To somehow say the mere utterance of the words Merry Christmas is a bad thing, is the height of not understanding that Easter and Christmas are critical parts of a Christian's yearly life, like it or not. It simply is what it is. To make a Christian feel guilty for saying Merry Christmas is a cruel cruel thing to inflict upon the 'spirit' of Americans. They feel it. I see it in their faces when they are not allowed to say it. I look at this argument in the same vein as someone who is offended by the words: Have a Nice Day! (they claim that the speaker is TELLING them what KIND of day to have.) I think those kinds of people have sauer kraut in their ears that makes everything sound jaded somehow. That person just wished that another person have a nice day, and somehow that is bad thing. ~shrug~ |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
" Why are we, as a nation, so quick to dispell our own traditions" Don't include me in your we.  Our tradition is that our country formed a union that welcomed peoples of diverse beliefs. I see here, that what started as a freedom, became a mandate. I'm not telling you not to put up lights and a Jesus menagerie--but if we're going to talk straight turkey about our traditions, then let us not forget this country was formed with the idea of seperation of church and state. I find that particularly wise. I'd apologize for my belief, but I don't think that I will. I'd explain further, but last time I checked, OUR constitution promised that I would never have to do that either. I caught enough grief, tyvm. And smiling--someplace...way back in the archives of Philosophy, I really didn't understand how I offended some folks when I equated morality with a theological practice. I'm happy to report that Karma has bit Karen in the ass. Personally? I'll wish you a merry Monday if that's your day and I'm serious about that. But you see what starts happening here? Read above. Businesses that stay open on Dec. 25 are considered lesser than, somehow. I'd like to take a moment to thank the guys and gals who worked on that day so I could buy tin foil.  You can NOT legislate a belief system. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
yikes methinks there are stories behind stories behind stories here at the Alley. I'm in a 'good will' mood! hehehe For me, the invocation: Merry Christmas means something much deeper than 'Have a nice holiday.' It means: I understand that Christmas is a time for all our families, and I wish your visits with them goes well. I understand that Christ is important to your daily life, and hope you let the Lord's birthday brighten your spirits also. Merry Christmas means: you mean something dear to me, and I am sharing my happiness with you. Merry Christmas means: let us share the brotherhood of man especially during this time of season. Merry Christmas means to set aside feelings of business first, people second. Merry Christmas means that a person's soul is aflame with good wishes for others. If that gets in the way of someone's interpretation of government, then so be it. The spirit of the message of 'Merry Christmas' should be preserved at all costs. It's our nation's greatest tradition. Jeff |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
That is for you, Jeff. And I swear to you, I'd help you feast. I'd gather my corn and make an altar of plenty...I'd do nearly anything to give you a show of good will. Now why can't I have the same? I had to give my kids a pretty decent Christian education in order for them to question that. (And btw? I'm not an atheist--more likely described as "deist") I suspect my son became an atheist when he couldn't pray our family back to life. Seperation of Church and State. I think it's wise. Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzx2LGbMxiY |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
A Passionate Play by Jeff Feezle He bought a flower from her, thanked her then asked her what her name is. MARY: Mary Christmas SOCAS: Mine is Socas. Would you walk with me a while, Mary? They walked thru a crunchy snow, and stopped at the park when they heard the singing. In a crèche, joyous song was given out for the season. MARY: Lovely, isn’t it? So soothing. Makes a person forget the cold night. SOCAS: Yes, but excuse me, I have to make a quick phone call. Hi, John. It’s me. You better file an injunction in the morning. We’ve got a nativity scene in the public federal park. Shouldn’t be there. Right! Just let me know if I can be of further help. Bye. MARY: Did you just turn in those people, like they were criminals? SOCAS: But they ARE, Mary. They’re breaking the law. MARY: What law? SOCAS: The Separation Of Church And State laws, of course. These are more important than the holiday itself. MARY: But, Socas, everyone here is enjoying them. SOCAS: It’s for the greater good, Mary. In silence they walked until they met some of SOCAS’ friends. SOCAS: Hey, Mary, some of my friends are approaching. They aren’t religious. I’m going to rename you Mary Holidays so we don’t offend them. MARY: But it offends ME, Socas! And it bothers everyone who knows me well. My last name has God’s own approval for it. I don’t understand why... SOCAS: That is fairly selfish of you, Mary, to insist upon thrusting your offensive name upon non-believers. It makes them feel excluded. MARY: I think, Socas, that it’s better if we didn’t see each other again. SOCAS: But, Mary, we would make a great couple! MARY: You don’t even respect me enough to call me by my real name. How can we come together when you insist on demeaning me simply for who I am? SOCAS: These are modern times, Mary. The silent isn’t silent anymore. MARY: ...and the majority is no longer the majority, either. Goodbye, Socas: take good care, and, Mary Christmas. [This message has been edited by threadbear (01-05-2009 12:14 PM).] |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
and to all...a good knight! My computer's buzzing. (prolly a good thing) what am I gonna do now?  nuthin' probably I honestly wish that there were miracles, and crazy nice stuff happened on that date--but the truth is that it never did, and more than likely it never will. "A nice man in a big fat suit"... and I will never understand how nails through hands, etcetera? Well. I'll never understand. I suppose I'm going to Hell. But I ask you, how could you leave Hell with the people you love, so steadfastly behind? |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
It was Heaven all along. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
The Wikipedia article on Christmas is really very interesting. From reading it, I learned a lot of things, for instance: December 25 is not thought to be Jesus' actual date of birth, and the date may have been chosen to correspond with either a Roman festival,[6] or with the winter solstice.[7] According to popular tradition, the birth took place in a stable, surrounded by farm animals, though neither the stable nor the animals are mentioned in the Biblical accounts. Nativity scenes traditionally include the Three Wise Men, Balthazar, Melchior, and Caspar, and who are said to have followed a star, known as the Star of Bethlehem, and arrive at his birth. [38] However, this conflicts with Biblical accounts in that their names and number are never mentioned nor is their arrival at his birth. (Matt. 2:7–8, 16). In Colonial America, the Puritans of New England disapproved of Christmas. Celebration was outlawed in Boston from 1659 to 1681. Charles Dickens's book A Christmas Carol, published in 1843, played a major role in reinventing Christmas as a holiday emphasizing family, goodwill, and compassion as opposed to communal celebration and hedonistic excess.[31] In America, interest in Christmas was revived in the 1820s by several short stories by Washington Irving which appear in his The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon and "Old Christmas", and by Clement Clarke Moore's 1822 poem A Visit From St. Nicholas (popularly known by its first line: Twas the Night Before Christmas).[32] Irving's stories depicted harmonious warm-hearted holiday traditions he claimed to have observed in England. Although some argue that Irving invented the traditions he describes, they were widely imitated by his American readers. The poem A Visit from Saint Nicholas popularized the tradition of exchanging gifts and seasonal Christmas shopping began to assume economic importance.[33] ............................................ Follow the links in blue for even more fascinating and enlightening reading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you Jenn. Holidays are...difficult. My brother was removed from his post as an Elder in the Baptist Church, because he kinda figgered out that "our" December 25 was not the actual birth of the man called Jesus...according to historical Josephus...so..yeah. He was deposed. (My brother--he was deposed. Christ maintained his birthday.) I honestly don't know what to say to these annual "depositions". Sometimes I feel like it's like..."I Dream of Jeannie" where they just make up a date, so she won't feel so bad for not having a b'day. Nod. I can relate to that. But Jesus? I have total respect for the man. I once dreamt he washed my feet, but that story gets me in trouble, so consider this, kinda sorta hoping for some more score... Trouble, I mean. It's a good story though. I like him. Jesus, I mean. He parties. Like it's 2999.  |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"Holidays are...difficult." Yep, Karen, for sure they are for many of us. For me, Christmas brings back memories of some of the worst days in my life. It takes about all the strength I have just to deal with those memories and get through the season, as it does for many others. So for those who also suffer from "seasonal" depression, I wish them all Happy Days, It's Over! |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Now I just have to get through Mardi Gras. *chuckle* funnels and such, yanno?  lawsy drop me a line about the Jesus stuff. I wish my brother were still alive, so he could correct Wikipedia. And he would. (Mardi Gras is early this year, let me know if yer in town.) I'll be the one hobbling. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
It would be strange that your brother would be removed for that reason, serenity gal. The fact that Jesus was not born on December 25th is no revelation at all. It has been accepted for many years. In a documentary on the History channel it showed how that date had been selected because it was the date that Romans had celebrated one of their own gods and it gave a detailed account of how and why Christians decided on that date to celebrate the birth of Christ. There is no big expose here. Jeff, I told ya....... |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*laughing* but not at you before there was wikipedia? My brother was correcting the "History Channel". Apparently he had opportunity to study some Hebrew, and discovered (and oh I wish he were here) and according to his calculations, Jesus was born sometime in March. And EVERYBODY knows about Constantine, and his merging of Winter Solstice with the "newfound" Christian holiday of the 'birthday' of Christ. And let's not even argue what can't be proven--even if my dead brother thought he had proof. Anyhow, I thought you knew all this stuff? Hmmm...aren't you agnostic? *scratching my head* *shrug* It doesn't matter to me, but I find it curious that you bring this point up every year....  and baffledNow SOLSTICE matters to me because that happens to be the date the days commence to growing longer, celebrating return of the light? (See? I like it when it's neat.) And that's neat.But Merry Christmas? Merry Monday. It don't matter to me. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Actually, Balladeer, what you told Jeff hasn't happened, not even remotely. But if you want to pretend it has then - whatever, and, Have a nice day. I think if one is a Christian, one should observe Christmas as Holy Day, not a holiday tarnished by pagan traditions, commercialism, gastronomic excesses, greed, and offerings of peace and goodwill that seem to last only until the tree is tossed out for rubbish collection. I love the winter solstice, too, Karen. Just to know the 4:00 darkness will soon turn to light makes it a real holiday for me. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Everyone is entitled to a personal belief. On that grounds, I tend to object when other people, who don't participate in the belief, offer their instructions, or hire the aCLU to alter someone else's idea of religion. It is ALWAYS the outsiders who think they they know best. It would be like me walking into a Jewish wedding ceremony and saying it was bogus because they jumped over an object and smashed a goblet. Or someone who doesn't golf, saying simplistically: it's all about chasing a little white ball over a field. A person has to be inside the circle to 'feel' the importance of the holiday. I think in some individuals and groups, there is a resentment among nonbelievers for various reasons. For one, I think (at least initially) they are jealous or envious that the personal touch of Jesus hasn't happened to them, and they wonder why. That wonder is quickly replaced by skepticism. Jesus is about free choice: if you don't ask Him into your life, he won't appear in your soul. It really is that simple. For others, the religion in which they were raised in becomes the primo facto belief system, and they may never become believers. In general, I find that true Christians are happier than most people. They seem fulfilled and not at odds with success, or lack of it. Their ease with life comes from something stronger than themselves, and they live in that moment of comfort. Non-believers call it believing in magic because they've NEVER had the feeling of natural well-being stemming from the Presence of the Lord. So difficult to describe a 'feeling of well being', but I will try briefly, Karen, to tell you what it feels like: imagine that a person's whole life is spent under the protective umbrella of their benevalent father. No matter what, that person will always have a house, someone to love them, protect them, and take them back if they fail. That assured feeling is what most Christians feel believing in Christ. 'No Matter What'....He is there. I see firsthand, what young people go through when they don't have a Father to fall back on as they get older and struggle thru life-phases. Perhaps you understand now why Christians want to SHARE this happiness with others. It doesn't mean they wish to cram their beliefs down someone's throat. They only wish to share the Goodness. ...and of course, Christmas is a great vehicle in which to do that. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Cough, cough, water...feels like something’s being crammed down my throat. Agh... My favorite holiday manger scene is one on a neighbor’s lawn from Black Friday until just before Easter. They do it every year so I know the drill. Anyway, not only do they have plastic, life size Mary, Joseph, Wise Men and assorted farm animals, they also have Mr. and Mrs. Santa, Elves and a few reindeer standing around the crib containing a plastic Baby Jesus lit by red and green flashing lights - first a red faced Baby Jesus, then a green faced Baby Jesus...and so on and so on. I’d really like to thank them for sharing their faith, except I can’t quite figure out what it is. Is there some peculiar Christian sect that includes the Santas, fairy tale creatures, and north country wildlife in the retelling of the story of the birth of the Christ Child? |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hmmm...aren't you agnostic? *scratching my head* hehe....that's the point, Serenity gal. If I were a Bible-pounder or devout Christian, it would be different. I would be out there trying to influence people and drive the point for my guy home. But I'm just a guy in the middle, not knowing what name the Divine Power goes by or whether or not he actually had children. That being so, you can take my words to support ANYONE'S right to their beliefs and celebrations without one, or five, out of a hundred complaining that their rights are being violated or others holding up the constitution and screaming foul. If someone were to wish me a happy Kwanzaa (which I don't believe in) if I felt it was done with sincerity, I would thank him, not scream that he is trying to force his beliefs on me and go complain to the mayor. Does that help the head scratch?  Jenn, there doesn't have to be a particular Christian sect at all. That's the way they choose to display it and they have that right. It obviously makes them happy to do it that way so what's the problem? No one has any obligation to endorse it, nor do they have the right to condemn it with sarcasm...at least no moral right. |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Actually, I enjoy the manger scenes and stuff. Jesus is fine with me. I think he's actually pretty cool. I suspect he's so cool, that he might say something like "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's." I guess he found it hard to get all worked up about that stuff too. (The head scratching is more of a shrug, now.) But I do maintain that seperation of church and state means just that. Private property, do what ya feel. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: No, Jeff, actually it would be like you walking into your living room and unexpectedly finding a Jewish wedding ceremony in progress. It wouldn't matter if it was bogus or what they jumped over so much as whether it was an appropriate place for a private activity. You might even decide to just laugh, slap the groom on the back, and kiss the bride. But wouldn't you want that to be your choice? I can't imagine anyone disagreeing that private living quarters should be protected from intrusion by outsiders. It's one of those things that just about everyone accepts as a given. The problem only seems to arise when we start sharing our living quarters with others. If Chandler shares an apartment with Joey, each of them expects the other to use the kitchen. That doesn't, however, mean that either of them can do anything they want in their shared kitchen. There have to be boundaries. There are typically different boundaries between roommates, between family, and between spouses, but when people share their lives with others there are ALWAYS boundaries. It's how we avoid killing each other. That public park? That Federal building? That space capsule circling the Earth? Those are shared quarters. I paid for them just as much as you did, and of course that means we need to establish our boundaries. If you really feel the need to run around naked, please do it in your private quarters, not in the ones you share with me. I promise I'll do the same. And if, somewhere down the road, we should decide to share what appears to be a common interest in nude cavorting, I'm sure we can find a private place to do it rather than force it on everyone wandering through communal quarters. Your place or mine? |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That public park? That Federal building? That space capsule circling the Earth? Those are shared quarters. I paid for them just as much as you did, and of course that means we need to establish our boundaries. Having now stated that you considered it out of line, were you bothered by it back in '68, Ron? Do you recall any controversy over it then? I don't...did it give you feelings about seperation of church and state then? Just curious...... |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I didn't find many people trying to shun the word "Christmas" this time. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Honestly, Mike, I don't remember Apollo 8 too well or, for that matter, much else of 1968. My world was much smaller that year, my concerns more focused, courtesy of Uncle Sam and Marine Corps boot camp. I was busy.  Your point, nonetheless, is well taken. I'll admit there wasn't a lot of concern about separation of church and state in those days. We were too busy burying RFK and MLK in 1968, I suspect, too nervous about the Tet Offensive in Vietnam and the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia, too frantic with widespread race riots and forestalled school bussing, and maybe just plain too tired to worry overly much about a couple of guys reading the Bible on our government's dime. I'd like to think we've come a ways in the forty years since. Can you imagine Obama being elected in 1968? I sure can't. Yea, things have changed in four decades, attitudes have shifted, and that's not always a bad thing. Those were simpler times, to be sure, but simpler isn't always better. Increased concern over separation of state, increased awareness of the importance of both civil rights and human rights, even the trend towards political correctness that everyone and his brother decries, these are signposts, I think, along a social journey still in the making. We're learning, perhaps, that when you immerse other people in crap the result never smells much like a rose garden, and there's way too much crap to go around to think we won't have to take our own turn in its depths. It's still limited to our own backyard, sadly, but I think concern over how we treat people is a good thing. It's progress. Someday, I suspect Respect and Tolerance might actually work. Fancy that.  |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Interesting, Ron. 1968...you were headed in and I was headed out. Didn't realize you were such a youngster |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smart little puppy, ain't he? |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Ron, in delayed answer to your post about using someone's private quarters (that STILL sounds 'randy'!), uh, I am in partial agreement with you. Parks are for public use. They are frequently used for gatherings. They are also sometimes used for Christmas decorations. Here are religious items all over public land and yet the said religious group can't use it with permission? "Sounds like: we threw a party in your honor, but...you can't come." As far as your other naked comment: can't help you there. I'm ALREADY banned in 27 states! |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
