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This place really sucks!
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This place really sucks! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US 
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I recently received a very distressing letter from David Doherty, who runs Poem Online. It seems we're not the only forum on the web that occasionally receives surfers who show a complete lack of respect for the community they are visiting. I was appalled to discover we were the cause of David's concern. quote: This is only part of my response to David (hey, you guys know I have a serious problem with brevity), but I think it's the important part. quote: David Doherty is one of the thousands - nay, tens of thousands - of poetry lovers who put in a lot of time and hard work to build something of value on the Internet. And most of them get very little in return for their contributions, save for the occasional pat on the back and a nebulous sense of fulfillment. I was absolutely horrified to discover our good name being used to detract in any way from what David has achieved. It's very early in the morning, I've had too little coffee, and maybe I'm just a bit cranky today. But I'll tell you, my friends, incidents like this make me really question our purpose here. I told David our goal at Passions was, ultimately, better understanding. I told him our philosophy was Respect & Tolerance. Am I just fooling myself? Is Passions little more than a dumping ground for narcissism, with no greater goal than one-upmanship? Can only like-minded, boringly homogenous people gather in harmony? Are Respect & Tolerance just impossible concepts, perhaps contrary to the very nature of humanity? Am I just fooling myself? |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Ron, m'Dear.... I hope you've had your first pot of coffee by now..  It's really no more complicated than the fact that we have soooo many people in residence here. The more people we host, the more diversified we become; the more "different" points of view and attitudes we find among us. Unfortunately, along with this inherently wonderful diversity comes a handful of dissidents. People who just have to stir uprisings where ever they go may be few in number, but they come out of the woodwork when people congregate in any forum. Every microcosm will include these mutinous miscreants by nature. I see it in the classroom - We see it in our country's and our world's societies. It's inevitable. Unfortunately, we can't escape it here either. I don't think we even managed to totally avoid disruptive issues when we had our private forums, did we? It's sad that people can't appreciate and respect others as we all should, isn't it? I'd like to stand with you in your apology to David Doherty. I've never seen his site, but I'll go for a visit, and express my gratitude that people like him are out there giving of themselves for the benefit of others. As for you, Ron... Put on another pot of coffee - and keep smiling. You've much to be proud of here at Passions.... SBCYTFA |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I went to David's site and there are replies! Maybe not as many as there are here, but people are replying. It looks like he's building a good site. He has several forums (one strictly for Spanish poetry!. It takes time to build a forum following and I'm sure it will happen. I've been to many poetry forums and it's the same all over - the replies are not what they are here. Even Spyder's Empire, which is one of the older forums has few replies...but I think Passions is different. We are a community. We care about each other, we encourage each other...therefore, there are more replies to a poem. But it's no excuse for bad manners. We know from experience that we can't control what our members do when they leave Passions, but I would hope that anyone would not use the Passions name to 'slam' someone else. I hope that person reads this and feels a bit of shame..... |
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Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666California |
Hey Ron - I haven't had my morning caffeine injection - so bear with me I'm not making sense here. I would have waited to post this but it did draw a real genuine concern in me. You ask questions that I could honestly debate from either side of the equation endlessly. I won't try to justify anything I will say here, but let's just say that if I truly believed these concepts "impossible"...than I would have stopped playing this game long ago. Two years ago I was a man in a shell Ron. And it wasn't a new found callous of skin I hid under - it was 31 years of endless pain, grief and misapplied guilt. When you contacted me on the Mining Co. boards - i.e. and I first looked at the Passions in Poetry site. Although there were only poems by one man posted at the time, YOU, I knew for the first time in my life I was not truly alone. I also knew how your circle was going to explode in growth as I had looked at every poetry site on the net and none held a candle to the format you were displaying, truly offering a circle of friends - even though the forums by all accounts weren't even thought of as yet. Your concepts are not contrary to "human nature". I believe love, compassion, respect & tolerance to be the essance of Human nature. I believe I have found it here more so than I any other place I've been in this life. Where two years ago I would feign to return an email to ANYONE - this site has been soul-opening to me, allowing me courage to reach out to others. To share dreams with others. Dreams of the very things you are questioning now. I doubt I am alone in these feelings...just look at the number of members we have. There will always be those contrary to the values you have. That will never make your values invalid. Rest assured, my friend, the values you have are shared by many of us. But don't let one who doesn't share your values ever stop you from the pursuit of them. A pursuit I've never seen you maintain with anything less than 100% integrity. If the man who voiced his blatantly disrespectful opinion and had the gall to tag a Passion's label to it had a tenth of your integrity, I assure you this entire incident would have never taken place. Michael [This message has been edited by Michael (edited 03-14-2000).] |
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hoot_owl_rn Member Patricius
since 1999-07-05
Posts 10750Glen Hope, PA USA |
Ron, As much as you'd like, you can't be responsible for the actions of every member of this forum...that only happens in a perfect world and we all know the one we live in is far from that. I understand that what people here say and do reflects on you in part as you conduct the site, but I can't see how you can mother over 2000 members. Don't beat yourself up over this one. I think your explanation explains it as well as you possible can. All Mr. Doherty has to do is visit the forum to know that that type of action is not reflective of the vast numbers of your members. If by reading the poetry and responses on the site he is not capable of seeing the compassion and integrity that we, as a group, posess here, there is no way to make him understand. I for one am very grateful for your contribution to your fellow poets to make this forum available to us and appreciate the time and effort it take for you to maintain it at the level it is maintained. Thank you, Ruth [This message has been edited by hoot_owl_rn (edited 03-14-2000).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Ron, I too am very sorry this had to happen. And, as Nan has already put forth, there will always be a small percentage of the population who derives perverse pleasure at instigating some sort of mischief. I can only hope that these small-minded children do not cast shadows upon the chivalrous gentleman I've long termed our Passionate Guru. I just wish that those dissedent member here would come to view PiP as I have, i.e. Ron's house where we are allowed to visit, trade ideas, sip coffee, and chew the fat. And I know that, like so many other here, I do point to PiP and encourage people to stop by for a visit, but not at the cost of deriding another site, even those sites that I have little personal respect for. Passions in Poetry has been my cyber-home since my first submission, back when we had two forums for discussion, and a private blue forum for poetry. And Ron, I have you to thank for bringing myself out of my poetic shell. Though I have written God only knows how many poems, rarely would I share them with others. I thank you for creating a meduim where just such was encouraged. Alicat, the Persnikitty |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Ron: "I told David our goal at Passions was, ultimately, better understanding. I told him our philosophy was Respect & Tolerance." I don't see any need for rethinking these ideals (remember, they ARE ideals). Understanding and concurrent respect for other poets (not just those here) are standards that take work to cultivate and maintain. "Am I just fooling myself? Is Passions little more than a dumping ground for narcissism, with no greater goal than one-upmanship?" How do you think this can be avoided? Certainly "narcissism" is going to be dumped here and without a doubt there will be those who continuously try pushing others out of the limelight. You've built an incredible site here, Ron, where people have the opportunity to better themselves as poets AND as persons. In time I think your sticking to your ideals will rub off on the "narcissists" that decide to stick around, don't you think? "Can only like-minded, boringly homogenous people gather in harmony?" I'm moderating with Trevor and Brad ... that in itself answers your question in the negative.  "Are Respect & Tolerance just impossible concepts, perhaps contrary to the very nature of humanity?" Yeah, I would say contrary to the "very nature of humanity" but I wouldn't say impossible. In short, these ideals take work and (man I hate this word) patience. Your frustration is normal, I think. "Am I just fooling myself?" No. Don't sweat it, Ron. The negative way of looking at it is the bigger your site gets, the bigger the bulls-eye tatooed to your chest is going to get. But the upside is you attract dozens of dozens of people who share your ideals to stand beside you in this. If that isn't enough then you can simply form a Brute Squad (I volunteer!) and send them out to rough up a few heads. Later. Jim [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 03-14-2000).] |
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Marilyn Member Elite
since 1999-09-26
Posts 2621Ontario, Canada |
I have to agree with the rest of my friends that responded to this. There is always a handful in the bunch that like to cause trouble. It is no reflection on you, Ron. You handle these people with patience and grace and when all other course has been explored you ban. What else can we do to maintain these ideas? We teach by example, we reachout and we show others what we want to see happen here. You are not and could never be, held responsible for another actions. It is always their decision to open their mouth (or type on their keyboard) without engaging their brain. Jim said : Don't sweat it, Ron. The negative way of looking at it is the bigger your site gets, the bigger the bulls-eye tatooed to your chest is going to get. I believe there are many of us who will stand in front of you and share that bulls-eye. Don't give up on your dream because of a few, the many will always help to dust you off. Marilyn |
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WhtDove Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245Illinois |
Ron I hope it has shown to be a grumpy day, and a total misfortune to say the least that someone had to tag the Passions name on a comment like that. With the majority of people you have here at the site, I have to say things run pretty smoothly! There will always, always, be those "bad apples," in the crowd. For the most part Ron, you've built a world where so many of us have met, and have become dear friends and family. Respect and Tolerance are things we grew up with, and seem to be harder to find these days, I'll agree. Rest assured the majority of those here have that Respect and Tolerance. There is no other place out there quite like the one you've worked so hard on for many reasons. This is a stand up place in my book. I'm really disappointed in whomever made a comment such as that. I hope they understand what they've done! Keep the chin up, we're all behind you! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I just get confused when something like this happens. I volunteer for the 'Brute' squad though -- Ron can just say release the dogs and we go. Actually, that sounds like fun. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with friendly rivalries; they can be quite productive. Still, I fail to see why anyone would post something like the above. How is this productive to anything? How important are we really? The majority of English speakers do not read poetry and I don't understand why anyone would want to damage the efforts of the few of us who actually do and are actually trying to widen the overall community of poetry readers and writers (not just limited to Passions). This has nothing to do with the issue but I looked around that site and I liked it. I think it has tremendous potential and from what I could gather, it has only recently attempted a more professional approach. It sounds to me like still another person has spoken before understanding the context of the issue. Sigh. You know, I think we're far from the level of resorting to 'negative advertising' in order to promote this site. Ron, are you deluding yourself? I don't know but I think that losing the battle, losing the never-ending war against such attacks, against stupidity, against intolerance, against disrespect, is not a strong enough reason to stop fighting. If Passions is not a bulwark against these things, then what is? Brad [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 03-15-2000).] |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
Hi everyone. Geesh..I'm sorry to here this went on. It sounds to me like you all need a hug. ((((EVERYONE)))) This place is great. Ron, You do and have done wonders with this place. I'm sending you some smiles and some extra caffeine for mornings like the one you've had above. Please don't let this matter stress you too much. There is alway someone out there who likes to show off and draw attention to themselves. Regards from an ever faithful member, *Jenn* |
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PhaerieChild Senior Member
since 1999-08-30
Posts 1787Aloha, Oregon |
Ron, first off, it is not your fault when people go to other sites and do these kinds of things. You cannot be held accountable for the actions of others. I went to this site and checked it out for myself and people are replying and doing it as respectfully and encouragingly as they do on netpoets. It seems as if he would want the same caliber of people as are enjoyed here. That is a wonderful goal, but even we have had our share of dissidents and crap stirrers. It just seems to go with the territory. I am sorry to hear that we have been involved with this as it was hurtful to everybody and no one deserved it. I hope he has a successful site going there. It seems to be well thought out and what people there are, seem to be caring and nurturing just as they are here. I hope he doesn't let one bad apple spoil his whole cart. We've had to weed out a few too. (((((((((hugs Ron)))))) Poetry~ Words falling on paper, painting a dream. Shawna R. Holder Boise, Idaho |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
Hey sweetheart...If I go out and get run over by a truck cause I'm thinking of a poem I read here on your site instead of watching the traffic - is that your fault?...Of course not.. But I can understand you taking responsibility, but you can't be held accountable for other people's actions, that is up to each of us as individuals to be the best kind of person we can be and I personally think that the majority of the people here are kind, tolerant and respectful of each other and considering how many poets/readers frequent your home, that is something to be proud of... ooops, here endeth the lecture..*g* Now go have your coffee or is it chocolate this time of night?.. I'll even give you a piece of my bournville (bittersweet chocolate to the uninitiated) if you're good...LOLHUSG |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
Ron: If Rainbow is run down by that truck, I'll not just hold you responsible... I'll hunt down the poet whose poem she was pondering! So watch out! LOL Seriously, it would be nice if everyone who appreciated poetry had been taught a few manners somewhere along the line... but we are a conglomerate of people with imperfections... we are indeed a family... and you know how some of those family members can make you regret having relatives. *G* I'm sorry someone used PIP in such a negative manner... You and the site deserve more respect than that! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Every year thousands of Americans go to foreign countries and criticize them, talking about how great America is. Does that mean America's leaders are jerks? No, we have plenty of other reasons to think that. I'm sorry it happened but I've had a long talk with WhtDove and she promises never to do it again! |
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WhtDove Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245Illinois |
Hey there Balladeer! hahah gonna start pickin on poor ol me are ya? Ok, I promise never to do it again... You're too much! |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Geesh. One is away for a few days and comes back to a post entitled "This Place Sucks" and sees Ron's name beside it. "What," I say to myself, "is going on?" Click, click, read, read, read. Ah Ron. All of the cliche terms have been taken by serious answers to your un-deserved dilemma. But one of the responses put it adequately and correctly: you are not responsible for another person's actions. Those of us at Passions who remain here do so because we see through the barrage of bad apples, the unsatisfied souls that only look to cause disruption, the nay-sayers that would cause strife. The true poets of Passions are here because they see both sides of an issue, although they may lean towards one side more. As it should be. The ones that remain ARE tolerant, respectful, kind, considerate people. We are MORE than satisfied with the home you have built with your heart, hands and mind. Because of Passions, I have learned to control my blushing at my own self-inflicted fear of having my words in the form of self-expression, poetry or prose being accepted, or discounted. [And one of these days, I'll post more in 'Critical Analysis' for some real bashing...!!! LOL] Because of Passions, I feel I have become a better person. I don't know any of you in person. I only see your words. You cannot repeat these words day in and day out without slipping up, if the words posted are lies. You ALL know that. Ron, you have created a wonderful home for all of us that want to be here. Do not take on guilt for someone else's dissatisfaction of Passions, for they were dissatisfied with things long before they came in here to look around. It is hard to be discontent among so much love and sunshine, and some are only happy when they are sad. My two cents has long been spent. But thanks for sharing your concerns, as it always gives us a venue for telling you and others just what this place has given to us...and will continue to give for a long time. Sunshine. |
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tracie66 Member Elite
since 2000-01-18
Posts 4713Australia |
Ron a short reply just to say I'm sorry that happened and to agree with the others, please don't stress over this too much. I love this place, it's my own little haven, my home away from home. I thank you for it LoL tracie Keep all the windows of your mind open Anne Rooks |
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Isis Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-06
Posts 6296Sunny Queensland |
As usual I am always late to the meeting LOL! Ron, I agree with everyone else. You have made a wonderful place here.. We can only try to instill our values into our members. I've seen many poets here, leave without a trace. They probably move onto another site as this one. They didn't learn anything here just played ego games. It's kind of like parenting, you cannot predict how your kids will be as adults. You can only hope they've learned enough about morals and values and go out into the world and be good and make you proud. Some ultimately fail, as those few poets here or from here have done. They are mature adults and you didn't TELL them to go elsewhere and make trouble, that was already there in them. We here at Passions are a loving family of friends, we share our poetry, our friendships and our hearts. Ron my friend, you are a wonderful man for creating this in the first place, you cannot hold yourself responsible for idiots that don't know a good thing when they see it. it is no reflection on you at all. And if anyone thinks it IS they are no better themselves. Please Ron don't even think twice about it. It has nothing to do with you or Passions, just some idiot making trouble. I'll take this opportunity to thank you again for Passions and what it has done for us all for the poetry and the friendships.. LOL, Isis There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self... ~Isis~ (Goddess - Sovereign of the Spirit) |
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