The Alley |
The Emanuel Clock |
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Emanuel's blog entry is in reference to the conviction of Skeuter Libby on 4 of 5 counts of obstruction and purjury. He contends that before the administration is done Cheney will be out and Rice will be veep. However farfetched that may be -- what do you think the implications of the Libby trial are for Cheney? The remainder of the Bush administration? Should Libby be pardoned as the National Review calls for? Do you think Bush will make an 11th hour pardon the way Clinton did? Do you agree with the jury's contention that other members of the administration should have been on trial? |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Whoa, Nelly. This sort of amused me in a twisted way. quote: Yes, farfetched, but very employable tactics. Now if this comes to pass: I can really make a "prediction." See Dick go. See two women run without. See how far they get before another Dick wins. Pardon my sense of humor, please. I hope they prove me wrong. I think. "However farfetched that may be -- what do you think the implications of the Libby trial are for Cheney?" Libby won't be invited to Cheney's annual Christmas party ever again. I feel that anything that goes down at the White House will not include Bush or "The remainder of the Bush administration?" With a period. If they fall down we all fall down, especially those soldiers now deployed on foreign soil. I think we know who or what is holding them up, in a number of ways. "Do you think Bush will make an 11th hour pardon the way Clinton did?" Bush needs to beg pardon for a lot of things, but a man gone wrong will usually justify, justify, justify, while he throws down the gavel with all the power given him, especially that which makes him afraideth it be taken away. "Do you agree with the jury's contention that other members of the administration should have been on trial?" Sure, but they got an excused absence, and probably two milks and all the Twinkies they could eat, which explains the shelf life of Congress and the condoning of the "Twinkie defense," with many things going on inside the White House. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
It all depends on who you ask. The ubercons want President Bush to sidestep the Articles in the Constitution which created Seperation of Powers and directly prosecute or bring charges of Treason against select Democrats and Liberals for leaking or destroying classified documents. On the other side, uberlibs cheer the verdict and work towards Regime Change on one side of the mouth and state the trial and verdicts were not politically motivated out the other side. When asked what they spoke about in brief conversations several days ago, the usually response is 'I'm not before a Grand Jury.' Nice duck n weave action. But they never directly answer the question, since the answer is invariably, 'I don't recall exactly.' The real interesting thing was this entire trial was NOT about 'who outted Valerie Plame', as the Prosecution had known about Armitage for many years. It was about whether or not there had been perjury during the investigation where the Prosecution already had their catch, but were casting their nets for other fish. Armitage was never charged. Armitage helped the Prosecution. Armitage was not permitted to go public for several years. However, all over the AP line, it's 'Libby Convicted in CIA Leak Case' or 'Libby Verdict Indictment on Iraq War'. Yet those same reporters are quick to say the trial was apolitical. Wilson is recommended and sent by his string pulling wife to Niger for a 'yellow-cake' story. Wilson comes back and submits his findings that Saddam had not actually gotten any. White House says that Saddam tried though and would eventually succeed if unchecked. Wilson didn't like that answer, so he releases his unauthorized report to media outlets and writes an Op-Ed citing Cheney as the one who sent him, when it was his wife. In an interview with Novak a few days later, Armitage mentions who actually sent Wilson to Niger: 'his wife, yanno the one that works in the CIA'. Novak knew who that was. Most reporters in DC worth their salt knew who that was. So Wilson, Plame and the Anti-War crowd cry Foul! and immediately implicate the White House, even though Armitage worked for the State Department. Was Armitage brought to trial? No. Nice guy, powerlifter, raised about 50 adoptive kids, worked in the State Department. Novak? Nope. Berger? Sorry, different crime and political affilation...over 700 days since he said he'd take a polygraph and counting. What the Special Prosecution wanted was someone in the current White House and they tripped up Libby. As Jurist Collins stated, they didn't want Libby, but Rove. Interesting that during his 15-Minutes of Fame speech, Collins plugged himself as an author and reporter. I don't think he's a current author, but I'm sure that will be rectified soon...and there would be some serious legal issues if was a newspaper reporter AND a jurist. I could be wrong, but I think that's a disqualifier. Unless he wasn't straight about his profession, in which case that would be a mistrail. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Convicted of perjury in lying to a grand jury...wow. Reminds me of another politician in the not-so-distant past in a much higher office. He should have just stuffed secret documents down his shorts and he would have been ok I was wondering where you all have been during the recent threads on Pelosi, Hillary and the like. I figured it wouldn't take long for this to show up....thanks for the predictability. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
All I will say for now is that this president would benefit more politically pardoning Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, rather than Lewis Libby. Who knows when that will happen? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I admit I haven't been listening to the right wing nuts lately so I guess, from reading Cat's and Deer's responses, that they're banging on Sandy Berger again trying to assuage any stinging sensation amongst the Conservative ranks over the conviction of Libby. This, however, is not a partisan thread but, since there are misrepresentations, misunderstandings, and factual inaccuracies let's review the final outcome of the Berger case briefly; quote: I'm not really sure how, although I think I may understand why, anyone still thinks there are any teeth to the Sandy Berger docugate drama -- especially after the Conservative newspaper the Wall Street Journal issued this op-ed on April 8, 2005; quote: quote: I can't speak for anyone but myself, and even that would be hard to say since - I haven't really noticed any threads lately besides the Gay-Rights Activists bashing one -- but, it's possible I was shoveling snow, playing guitar, building guitars, having my truck totaled by a moron who thought he could do anything because he had an SUV with all-wheel-drive, spending time with my kids, or doing something else that actually interested me. Regina quote: three CIA officials testified that Wilson's trip was in fact in direct response to Cheney's inquiry as stated by Wilson. quote: From the facts of this case we know that Rove and, of course, Libby, two White House officials -- were in fact spreading the word too -- the fact that Armitage leaked to Novak and that he was the first to take the bait does nothing to exonerate the White House -- in fact --it was the jury's contention that Cheney directed Libby to do the leaking. I didn't think there was anyone left who was still trying to cast doubt on the covert status of Plame. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19720 I think Ann sums it up well. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Her summary is completely fatuous and inaccurate. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well, of course you would say that. True, she hyperbolized it a bit but where is it inacurate? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
It's illegal to be a Republican? |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Sanding aside from the more political aspect of the pardon debate here, it seems it could be argued that Libby currently doesn't even qualify for a presidential pardon under Justice Department guidelins as they are currently written: United States Department of Justice: Office of the Pardon Attorney Pardon Attorney Roger C. Adams "The Office of the Pardon Attorney, in consultation with the Attorney General or his designee, assists the President in the exercise of executive clemency as authorized under Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution. Under the Constitution, the President's clemency power extends only to federal criminal offenses. All requests for executive clemency for federal offenses are directed to the Pardon Attorney for investigation and review. The Pardon Attorney prepares the Department's recommendation to the President for final disposition of each application. Executive clemency may take several forms, including pardon, commutation of sentence, remission of fine or restitution, and reprieve." * Newsweek: March 7, 2007 As a new Newsweek commentary also explains, according to those very guidelines: * "They 'require a petitioner to wait a period of at least five years after conviction or release from confinement (whichever is later) before filing a pardon application,' according to the Justice Web site." * Now, of course the president has every right to waive those rules if he wishes to, but as is also pointed out: * "From the day he took office, Bush seems to have followed those guidelines religiously. He's taken an exceedingly stingy approach to pardons, granting only 113 in six years, mostly for relatively minor fraud, embezzlement and drug cases dating back more than two decades. Bush’s pardons are 'fewer than any president in 100 years,' according to Margaret Love, former pardon attorney at the Justice Department." * Thus, would it be fair to say, setting aside personal feelings for Mr. Libby, the Iraq war and the politics of the trial itself here for a moment, that such a pardon in the more immediate future would feel rather awkward when considering how the president has approached these particular guidelines intensely? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Berger claimed that the removal of top-secret documents in his attache-case and handwritten notes in his jacket and pants pockets was accidental. (Somehow it is failed to mention his socks and underwear). He later, in a guilty plea, admitted to deliberately removing materials and then cutting them up with scissors. Mr. Berger said he placed the documents under a trailer in an accessible construction area outside Archives 1 (the main Archives building)." Berger acknowledged that he later retrieved the documents from the construction area and returned with them to his office (would you care to come up with any scenario that would cause him to place them in a construction area and then retrieve them....me, neither) "I'm not really sure how, although I think I may understand why, anyone still thinks there are any teeth to the Sandy Berger docugate drama" - LR REALLY? (Ron didn't buy all of the swampland I have for sale down here, There are a few acres left if you're interested ) You may not have written this as a partisan thread but the fact remains.....had Berger been a Republican, he would have been crucified. Had Libby been a Democrat he would have skated......such is life in the 5th Estate....and occasionally in Alleys. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: WHAT? You're kidding Me! Bunch of Hooligans!! I'm appalled. quote: She said it. I didn't. So is that the Democrat's fault? Maybe the Republicans need to pay more attention to who is funding them. It could be a conspiracy. Get what you pay for. Set up a shoo-in. Strike when he's in office...sound crazy? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/16/terror/main2488520.shtml We'd better be equally concerned about who's underneath the platforms. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hey, rwood....may as well look at both sides, no? Unfortunately, both sides could use a little more diligence.. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/12/31/135301.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Chung http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/2/21/181251.shtml This one is the best, with an excerpt below.... http://prorev.com/wwstats.htm CAMPAIGN FINANCE INVESTIGATION - As of June 2000, the Justice Department listed 25 people indicted and 19 convicted because of the 1996 Clinton-Gore fundraising scandals. - According to the House Committee on Government Reform in September 2000, 79 House and Senate witnesses asserted the Fifth Amendment in the course of investigations into Gore's last fundraising campaign. [These figures are included in the larger figures elsewhere]. -James Riady entered a plea agreement to pay an $8.5 million fine for campaign finance crimes. This was a record under campaign finance laws. - Number of times John Huang took the 5th Amendment in answer to questions during a Judicial Watch deposition: 1,000 - Visits made to the White House by investigation subjects Johnny Chung, James Riady, John Huang, and Charlie Trie. 160 - Number of campaign contributors who got overnights at the White House in the two years before the 1996 election: 577 - Number of members of Thomas Boggs's law firm who have held top positions in the Clinton administration. 18 - Number of times John Huang was briefed by CIA: 37 - Number of calls Huang made from Commerce Department to Lippo banks: 261 - Number of intelligence reports Huang read while at Commerce: 500 [This message has been edited by Ron (03-08-2007 05:42 PM).] |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Yep. It's all ugly money. Dirty, scammin', and shameful. Democratic, Republican, no matter, tho the one I listed was most recent, I think. I'm glad you brought those back up, Mike. Maybe people will take a look at how much Hillary Knew about it, participated in it, and now she's ridin' a new wave of it. Maybe that's why Gore is comfy outside the White House, in a convenient sort of way. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Your recollection of the definition of the word 'fact' has apparently gotten a little foggy -- maybe you can get Essorant to look it up for you. Let's see -- did anybody skate here? Berger committed a crime, lied about it, got caught in the lie, confessed to the crime, was tried and convicted in a plea-bargain. Libby had the opportunity to cooperate but instead chose to plead innocent -- was tried, found guilty. The Republicans were in control of the Justice Department for both incidents. (Notice the word 'Department' -- take note of what it is a department of.) If you think Berger got away with something you need to write a letter to GW and complain about it. If you think Libby was persecuted -- you need to write a letter to the CIA and ask them why they referred the matter to the Justice Department to begin with if you, indeed, think Valerie Plame wasn't a covert agent -- since the CIA obviously confirms that she was. If you think Fitzgerald was biased you need to write a letter and complain to the Justice Department and complain about them recusing themselves and appointing a Republican prosecutor. [edit instead of submitting back-to-back posts] quote: That's a fair and honest question Pete -- but, I don't think the heavy lifting belongs to me -- I think it belongs to anyone who wants to assert that Coulter's statements are accurate: quote: I'm going to bet that it wouldn't be a hard search to find Coulter calling for Clinton's impeachment and removal of office for perjury charges that she thought were imperative at the time. Of course -- she's copping the same argument that Hillary used -- vast, right-wing conspiracy -- if you changed the names -- you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. I'll give you a leg-up though, or, whomever wants to try to prove Ann right -- start with the Grand Jury Indictment and findings of fact: http://files.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/plame/usvlibby102805ind.pdf or try wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_plame I'm not even going to address the rest of her nonsense as it has absolutely no bearing on this thread. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
If you think Berger got away with something you need to write... If you think Libby was persecuted -- you need to write..... If you think Fitzgerald was biased you need to write.... You have an interesting way of expressing my needs, LR if you, indeed, think Valerie Plame wasn't a covert agent Of course she had been. Do you really think that's important in the Libby case? .... or doing something else that actually interested me. Exactly my point. The topics on Hillary, Pelosi or the Democratic Senate are uninteresting to you but let a Republican item come up, and....viola! Anyway, good to see you back, even if it takes a partisan thought to do it.......or HAD you initiated an Alley thread on Berger when it happened, too, and I just missed it? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I'm really not sure what you think you would gain by trying to paint me as a partisan Mike -- but it must be awfully important for some reason. So, since you've picked this time, this place to attempt it (again) -- elaborate for us -- what do you get? If you want to look around there's plenty of evidence that I don't like Bush, I don't like Hillary. I'm not swayed by tunagate Mike. quote: I think it is important to the nation and the world Mike -- and it is the central crime that was under investigation when Libby perpetrated his crimes for which he's been convicted -- which doesn't mean that he and others are not guilty of the central crime any more than Al Capone wasn't a ganster because he was convicted only of Tax Evasion. There will be no further responses from the thread author on Sandy Berger -- if you want one -- make it yourself -- or resurrect the one Cat beat me to. If you can come up with something interesting -- I'll participate Mike. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
To the contrary Reb. I think we all remember most of these facts Ann Coulter mentioned, at least superficially. There is plenty evidence there so that you don't get off by claiming it all lies and then cleim it is her responsibility to prove it. If she were the only one making those claims then I could accept your disclaimer without evidence. But to just deny it all as lies is pretty weak. That's more of a John Kerry tactic. Be serious. Unless your head has been somewhere, like buried in the sand, for the last year or two, you've heard all that many times before. You just flushed your credibility right down the tubes if you expect to get away with that. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Not at all Pete -- I gave you plenty of evidence -- follow the links -- read for yourself. I'm not going to point out the pertinant parts to you. Not my job. I don't have to retry the case -- read the Grand Jury indictment, read the Wikipedia pages, listen to the jurors -- read a newspaper. I'm not going to spend hours creating posts in response to people who make sideswipes at threads with single sentence potshots -- you put some time in -- I'll put time in. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Ann Coulter is the queen of spin. I can't believe this thread has come down to someone defending her...in my book she is a self-aggrandizing know-it-all and I have no respect for her opinion on anything. I like her less than I like Hiliary Clinton (if that is possible). Reb, as far as Libby goes...I've heard there's quite a large pool building on whether or not Bush will pardon him. I think I will vote with a "no." No pardon...that is unless Cheney resigns, and then....I'll change that to a "yes." The chances of Cheney resigning are slim though, I think. The implications of the verdict do suggest he should. The way Mike would play things on this thread, you would think that nothing wrong was done. It's the whole thing here that troubles me in that it appears to me that the war in Iraq was premised on faulty or manufactured intelligence and when the Plames would not cooperate with producing what was desired, Valerie was outted. Tell me that outting a CIA agent doesn't intimidate the heck out of the whole agency. Libby's lie was certainly a very important one and done for some very important reason or reasons. I am glad someone made a big deal out of this case and took it to trial. We'll have to wait and see what comes out when Plame testifies in front of the House of Representatives on the 16th. Should be interesting. I find it fascinating how people who would like to turn this thread into a partisan brawl don't have much to say about the real matter at hand; e.g., the possibility of impeachment. Oh, and ah....I have a pretty bad case of the flu so this just might end up being a drive by. At least, you got two cents. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: Bingo! They couldn't produce what wasn't there. It's the old "Kansas City Shuffle" of information. Valerie is definitely out. Libby is out. Who's next? "when Plame testifies in front of the House of Representatives on the 16th." We'll have to see, but I'll bet 1 clean dollar it will be Nobody, under these particular charges. Maybe under something else that eventually gets outted, but not from anything to do with the trip to Africa. They'll crucify her first. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Testifing before the Senate? That should indeed be fun. Question? Classified. Clarify? Plead 5th. Question? Classified. Clarify? Plead 5th. Plus, since it's a bunch of self-righteous windbags on both sides of the aisle instead of, say, a Grand Jury, Plame could tell them lies and they couldn't do a thing to her. Nor does she have to answer the summons. Nor does she have to say anything. Odds are though, she'll be very 'cooperative' up to a point, so long as the point is anti-war and anti-Bush. After that, it'll be 'classified' and 5th. Back to the case, how odd that despite the pleadings of the Special Prosecutor before the Media jury that the verdict was NOT about Iraq and was NOT about Plame but about Perjury that it still became about Iraq and Plame. Well, that's not really odd come to think of it, that's just the Media. Like a terrier, once they latch on to an idea, like every-conflict-is-Vietnam-unless-a-Democrat-does-it, they don't let go. They just worry and shake that notion all over the place no matter how threadbare and nonsensicle it is. Afterall, proclaim a lie often enough and folks will make it truth, with the onus of disproving the lies on those who call it such. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
and it is the central crime that was under investigation when Libby perpetrated his crimes for which he's been convicted -- Sorry but what was the central crime involving Libby and what crime was he convicted of? Lying to a grand jury or something, wasn't it? About what crime? Or was it lying to a grand jury about a non-crime? Has anyone been accused of an actual crime here? Will the real criminal please stand up...or, at least, the real crime? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Jo, quote: Do you think Bush's response was interestingly phrased? He said he respected the decision of the jury -- then he praised Libby's public service and expressed sympathy for him and his family -- he's yet to express sympathy or an apology to Joe and Valerie for the conduct of his administration though. I think my best guess based on that is a pardon is coming -- I'm not sure if it's sooner or later though -- I think that if a judge orders Libby into custody while his appeal is pending the pardon will come sooner -- if he allows Libby to stay out until the appeal can happen then I think the pardon will probably come at the last minute possible. Experts don't think there were any mistakes that would merit an appeal though and don't think that it's going to get any traction -- so, it may be coming sooner. I agree though -- I don't think it's likely that Cheney will resign. Hope you feel better soon. Reg; quote: There is probably enough evidence from the Grand Jury investigation and Libby's trial for the Congress to charge the Vice-President -- but, I'm not hearing any rumblings in the machine that indicate anything like that is going to happen. I'm curious about your comment re: 'crucify her' -- can you clarify your thoughts on that? Are you thinking the Republicans on the committee will try to skewer her the way the Dems did Clarence Thomas (and the Republicans weren't in power then and the Dems were)? If so -- I don't think the Dems are going to let Plame twist in the wind. Cat: What would Plame need to plead the 5th for? The committe has appropriate security clearance to review classified information -- so I don't think that's going to be an issue. Lying to Congress is just as much a crime as perjury -- failing to appear can get a Contempt of Congress charge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress. quote: What lie Cat? What notion is threadbare -- Fitzgerald and the Grand Jury laid out the details in the Indictment. Who is lying here (besides Libby)? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Read the indictment Mike. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
What lie? Hrm...so many to choose from. I'll go with the LIE that Wilson claimed he was sent by Cheney's office to Niger to investigate the yellow cake story when he was actually sent by the State Department after some string pulling by his spook wife, who just so happened to not qualify for the 'covert' flag at the time of the sending or the years prior or since. How about another one for a pair: Cheney's office orchestrated a smear campaign to destroy Plame's career when it was WILSON himself who first outted his own wife several years before and then Armitage of the State Department in a Novak interview. Though it's hard to say with Wilson....his story keeps changing. There was the version a few years prior to being sent, then another version of who outted his wife after his Op-Ed piece, then yet another version in his book about how his wife got outted, and yet another version during interviews about said book. It's a good thing for Wilson that he was never brought before a Grand Jury, eh? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well Cat, either you're the one repeating lies hoping to make them true -- or you're just listening to what you want to hear and are ignoring the source material. Read the Grand Jury indictment. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Reb, you're getting to be kind of a one trick pony here. "Go read the indictment." Yep, he was indicted for testifying that he couldn't remember who told him something. Something that it turns out was not a criminal disclosure in the first place, which the prosecutor knew all along. It's pretty obvious who the criminals are here. Whether he was actually guilty of perjury or not is really of little consequence. The other, unpunished, crimes pointed out in this thread are far more significant. The uneven application of the law is what we should all be alarmed about. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Obviously because no one has read the indictment. If you had read it -- you would know that that is not what it says. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Ok, Reb. 1. e Several points here. Cheney asks for info on Iraq-Niger connection. CIA sends Wilson. Why they sent Wilson, I have no idea since he lacked the credentials for the job. The last time he had officially been in Niger was as a General Services Officer between 1976 and 1978. Yet in 2002, he was hand selected by the Central Intelligence Agency to perform a fact-finding mission in Niger, though he had not worked for the Government since 1998. The references to Joe Wilson being an 'ambassador' stem from the brief stint he served as one in Gabon and Sao Tamo and Principe (two small island-nations off the coast of Gabon) between 1992 and 1995. He was never an ambassador to Niger. See also item 15, in which Wilson reasserts several times that he was sent by the CIA, not the Office of the Vice President. However, in later interviews he changed tact, citing the Vice President as his employer and never sought to correct those to 'misrepresented' his actual employer. That should satisfy the first 'lie' I mentioned in an earlier post. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
What makes no sense to me (and I have read the Grand Jury indictment) is why the Special Prosecutor went forward with an investigation at all when he knew who the "leaker" was from the beginning. He knew that it was Armitage who 'outed' Valerie Plame, which was no crime anyway, according to what I understand, because the law in question concerned 'covert' operatives, not 'classified' employees and she was 'classified', not 'covert'. Shouldn't that have been the end of the story? So why instigate an investigation when there was no crime to investigate in the first place? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
That's been my thought this entire time, not to mention some of the dismissive sources regarding Berger's behavior...that since there were other copies of the destroyed documents, there was no felony committed. By the same logic, I should be able to go to a car dealership and steal a car, since obviously there are others on the property and at worst get community service for grand theft auto. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sure but now we are to accept on plain faith that all of that is just lies? None of this was political and the prosecutor was not just inflating his income, as well as his visibility? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Exactly. I'm sure the jurors were merely musing aloud when they bemoaned the fact that a scapegoat had been offered up instead of Carl Rove or the Grand Poobah himself, Cheney. Politically motivated? Naaaah...must've just been yet another right-wing conspiracy. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
It is obvious why this whole fiasco received so much importance and press coverage. So what's new? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Gotta love the timing though. The indictment is dated Oct, 31, 2003. Of special interest is Item 25, in regards to classified documents leaked on or about Sep 26, 2003, but no mention is made of the Wilson articles in the NYT and Washington Post a year prior which clearly leaked 'classified' material. I mean, if Wilson actually was employed by the CIA under the behest of the VPA about nuclear activity by Iraq...I'm pretty sure that such material would be classified in 2003 even though he was in no way qualified for the position or posting sans string-pulling. And who would pull strings within the CIA? HRM....dunno. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: quote: quote: quote: |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thanks for such a detailed account, Reb The crime was what again? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: /pip/Forum6/HTML/001502-2.html#37 |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: quote: |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: quote: |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: No worries Pete. I doubt seriously we're going to start throwing all the poor black Democrats in prison on the street to make room for rich white Republicans. quote: Because, there was more than just one crime being investigated here -- and, as with any crime -- investigations don't stop at just the guy on the street who buys the meth -- but to seek out and destroy the meth lab and bring it's perpetrators to justice. quote: When you can hit print on your computer Cat and print out a picture of a Porsche and drive that to work -- then your comparison will be accurate. quote: Politics is inevitibly involved wherever Politicians and Power is concerned. The CIA called for the investigation -- that's not political. What would politics of this investigation and prosecution been if not for Ashcroft's recusal, due ostensibly to the large sums of money that Rove had contributed to his past campaigns? As a Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald was still empowered by the JD -- still working for the big guy -- so -- if there are politics in question -- John Dean's concerns bear considerable weight. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Yet I've never heard you outspoken about the myriad CIA leaks to the mass media. Regardless, the 'spokesman' for the jury sums it up nicely. They didn't think Libby was guilty but convicted him anyhow. How marvelous. I was a juror a few months ago in a drunk driving case, and am allowed to discuss. Didn't like the defendant, thought he was guilty of public intoxication and drunk driving, but the proof and evidence offered was insufficient to proove he was guilty of the crimes listed. It boils down to proof the jurors are allowed to see/hear. Did you know Russert was not allowed to be cross-examined? Reason given is the presiding judge was very upset that Libby was supposed to take the stand, but didn't. And for some reason, you seem quite content to leave off the murmuring of the jury in this particular case lamenting Rove or Cheney not being the defendant. And yet you give forth the premise that this entire judicial farce was apolitical. Astounding. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
well, everyone, of course, is still allowed to have his own opinion, regardless of how baseless it might be. As long as it is only an opinion, it really is pretty insignificant and useless to anyone not of "like mind." Yes it's just too easy to find "an example" and proclaim that as "proving the corruption of the system," whatever that might be. It takes more "open eyes" to survey the overall situation, again, whatever that might be. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Sure Pete -- you're absolutely free to join OJ in his search for the real killers if you want. quote: Wrong on both counts Cat. Here's what I posted; quote: The jury didn't think Libby wasn't guilty -- they said they think he's the fall guy -- and they, like you and Denise and Pete, are confused about why the core crimes in this case weren't being prosecuted -- and would like to see it done. quote: Bingo! Here's the very poorly written Intelligence Identities Protection Act: quote: Which would call for proof in this case about what a defendent 'believed'. A very difficult task. Because Armitage's disclosure doesn't appear to be 'intentional' it wouldn't necessarilly qualify under the technical description of violation of this particular code. Although Rove's, Libby's, and Fliescher's role appears to be the 'pattern' mentioned in (c) -- there it could be argued that they didn't disclose the information to impede the intelligence gathering capabilities of the U.S. --but for the political purpose of smearing a person who posed a threat to them. Fitzgerald proceded with what he could -- Obstruction, Perjury, making false statements, but he wrote the indictment, and the Grand Jury signed off in it -- so that we could see what was really going on. quote: quote: So then you're saying that Ashcroft, and his deputy, Comey -- both appointees of Bush -- were intent on bringing down the Bush Presidency? That is astounding. But on the contrary -- Comey very narrowly focused Fitzgerald's powers to investigate only the disclosure of Plame's identity -- he was in a box. As a man of integrity -- he kept the sand in the box -- but he wrote a message to us in that sand. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I'm sorry, I forgot to mention this prevarication: quote: I don't know where you get these lies from Cat. quote: |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Thank you for calling me on that one, Reb, as I had posted what I had understood from print and media without knowing the full story. I could've sworn I had a non-neocon source for that, but almost all the google hits now have anti-Bush buttons, slogans and sundry. Since I can't find it, I have to concede the error as it cannot be substantiated. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Pete said: The uneven application of the law is what we should all be alarmed about. L.R. said: No worries Pete. I doubt seriously we're going to start throwing all the poor black Democrats in prison on the street to make room for rich white Republicans. That seems to be a deliberate curve-ball answer, L.R. You know that Pete was talking about the disparate treatment of politicians accused of wrong doing depending upon their party affiliation. Why do the majority of Democrats skate for more serious accusations, even when caught red-handed ($90,000. in a freezer in Tupeprware containers, for instance) while the majority of Republicans are nailed to the wall for less serious accusations? You must see that happening. The Intelligence Identities Protection Act deals with current overseas covert agents, which Valerie Plame was not for at least 5 years preceding the disclosure by Armitage, therefore the Act was not violated by him or anybody else. Given that, what crime was purported to have been committed prior to the launch of the investigation? The perjury was alleged to have taken place during the investigation. If it were not for the unwarranted investigation no alleged perjury could have taken place. So what crimes were committed that necessitated the investigation in the first place? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: No, I don't. I saw William Jefferson Clinton face impeachement in the Congress of the United States -- for the exact charges Libby was tried and convicted for. So, then, what you're saying is perjury is only an important charge if sex is involved. If it was important then -- why isn't it important now Denise? Or do you have a let-the-Republicans-skate policy? Berger, investigated, plead guilty, convicted, sentenced. William J. Jefferson -- I can't comment on an ongoing investigation but are you suggesting the Bush Justice Department has a let-Democrats-skate policy? quote: Why do I sound like a broken record? Because you keep hitting the replay button. Read the source material Denise -- it's all spelled out for you in blue and blue right here on the forums. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
From Andrew Sullivan's 'Daily Dish': quote: Sullivan: That just about gets it right. But, wait, there's more! quote: And there you have it. What can you do when you control all three branches of government? You begin to attack each other. Anybody seen 'Blade 2' or 'Reign of Fire'(Both bad, I admit)? If I can find the time, I'll post Sullivan's Krugman quote. Republicans have been going after democrats, but they've been doing it at the local level where it doesn't get the attention. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
This is also from Sullivan's blog, Mar. 9. He's quoting Krugman. quote: So, are the republicans weak? Or are they corrupt? Admittedly, this doesn't have much to do with the Libby case, but since Ann brought it up. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Libby found guilty info here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/06/AR2007030600400.html Allegations against Cheney here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/06/AR2007030600400_2.html quote: Wilson’s Claims= Plame's husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, was sent by the CIA on a mission to Niger in 2002 to assess reports that Iraq had sought to buy nuclear materials there. He concluded the reports were false. In early July, 2003, Wilson published a rebuke of the White House, accusing the administration of distorting his findings to exaggerate the danger posed by Iraq and justify the war to the American people. Same source as above, just go to the first page. Creative Fact Presentation is allowed the same way as Creative Financing. One deals with War, the other--your nest egg. Both hit home with me. I guess I’m going to sound a lot like Reb here. It pays to read the fine print. What’s Libby’s part in all this? Chicken Little? Decoy Duck? We know who the rotten eggs are, but I’ll not be so quick to defend Libby. He got the shaft? Yeah, but I guess I look at little harder at the matter than most. I expect people in the White House to be more intelligent with information than the common businessperson, especially with info that screws you and others out of a job! Then he wants to do a very bad James Brown impersonation with the details? The audience, like the rest of us, wasn’t impressed or convinced he’s a one man show. As I see it, I imagine the only ones able to leak info about the C.I.A. is the C.I.A. They’ve been arranging leaks since conception. They have a system, just like every other office of security and intelligence. Did the Prez and his good-fuddy-buddy cohorts alter that? Seems like they did, because now the C.I.A. is scrambling for damage control, and I think they’re trying to figure out how to diplomatically apply the charges. Damage has been done. They can’t disclose to the public how much damage, because they’re the C.I. friggin’ A! Things are still in progress, though I bet some of their work sounded off about like needles being ripped off records, if anyone remembers what that sounds like. The fact remains: Plame was in the C.I.A. Out her and there’s a domino effect. All other agents involved with her as well as any past or current operations are outted. Guess where our tax dollars go with them? Years worth are out the window and down the drain. We demand security and pay for it. In essence, I feel the Bush Admn stole from the damn offering plate to help fund a war and dissed a system to gain the support of the American people. Sounds typical and they all need to go down. Will they? Probably not. That doesn’t seem to be the way things work, because we don’t demand justice, we demand security. The truth would scare the hell outta most people and there’d be complete chaos, so we remain placated, at best. quote: Valerie: I hope, since she was C.I.A. that she might have enough connections to make her completely aware of everything they could possibly use against her. I’d like to laugh about that, but it’s not funny. She’s out. The distinguished career that many of us would love to be able to qualify for is gone. I don’t find that funny because I wouldn’t like it if I lost my job. So yeah, she has a civil suit, but she’ll suffer more. My predictions: The word is out: Nepotism. She’ll be used like a dousing rod for Both parties, while the real issues fall off as scribbles in a margin on a legal pad, because every one of them is probably guilty of pulling some strings for family members. They’ll seek to either manipulate the implications as rag material, or discredit her the old fashioned way: with dirt. Cheney will do everything possibly imaginable to stall any implications involving the Prez, which could include a new pair of fish-net stockings? Who knows. Let’s watch and see. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sure he knew what I meant. He just didn't have a valid answer so resorted to some flip remark. No Denise, when LR has no legitimate support for his argument, that's just how he tries to work it, transparent though it may be. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Pete. Pete. Pete. There's documented legitimate support for everything I've said -- on the other hand -- what do we have from you? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
hmmmm, looks like you been found out, reb...I thought I was the only one who noticed that trait of yours. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No I don't have a let-the-Republicans skate policy L.R. If Libby committed perjury, then he has to face the music. But Clinton got off easy. Was what he did not as bad as what Nixon did? Nixon resigned before impeachment. Clinton remained even after impeachment. What did he get, a censure from Congress? Oh my. I guess they showed him! And, unlike Libby, Clinton committed a crime, perjury, prior to an investigation. There was a legitimate reason for an investigation. But I'm sure Libby will get more than a censure. DeLay resigns amidst allegations of possible wrong-doing and then the prosecutor can't get a Grand Jury to indict him on anything. He gives back the Abramoff campaign contribution, but Harry Reid, who received far more than DeLay did, from the same guy, refuses to give his back. Jefferson is caught on tape taking a bribe and the hard cold cash is found in his freezer and he refuses to resign, refuses to explain himself, and Nancy Pelosi, little miss 'let's clean up all the corruption', nominates him to serve on a committee! I guess she only meant that the Republican corruption had to be swept away. You haven't shown me what supposed crime was committed prior to the investigation that warranted the investigation in the first place. And I have read the material. It doesn't answer my question. Brad, I'd be interested in seeing how those investigations and indictments pan out, the percentage of Republican and Democrat convictions and sentences. If the local level mirrors the Halls of Congress, the majority of the Democrats will get a pass or a slap on the wrist and the Republicans will lose their jobs and do time. Are the Republicans weak or corrupt? Too many are both. Too many of the Democrats are conniving and corrupt. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: quote: |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The only thing that could possibly apply to Libby who was convicted of obstructing justice were the charges stemming from after the investigation was begun, not prior to the investigation. There was no violation of the Indentities Act or the Espionage Act because Plame was back in the U.S. for at least 6 years prior to her supposed 'outing'. There was no legitimate reason for the investigation in the first place. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: quote: The CIA disagrees with you Denise. But, there's also Title 18 and the non-disclosure agreement. Libby was in violation of all three. Assuming though -- your premise is correct -- perjury, false statements, and obstruction are still criminal offenses. Your logic would, if applied universally, say that Ken Starr had no business investigating the Paula Jones scandal since he was investigating Whitewater -- which never led to an indictment of the President on those charges. All of the Right's arguments in defense of Libby have been hypocritically reminiscent of Left's defense of Clinton. From my vantage point it makes me think that ideologues don't even care about ideology -- just about winning. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Larry C. Johnson doesn't seem to have much regard for the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" does he? Or did I miss the indictment and trial of Karl Rove? Also, his interpretation of the law seems to be a unique interpretation. And if Fitzgerald had "some support" for Plame actually being a covert agent I guess it wasn't quite strong enough to actually prosecute anyone for it. I'd also be curious to know when Fitzgerald threw in the Title 18 & Non-Disclosure charges, prior to the start of the investigation or at some point afterwards when he realized he didn't have enough to actually make a charge under the Identities Act. Or maybe it's a game of throwing in every conceivable charge possible hoping that something may actually stick to somebody. My opinion of Starr is the same as my opinion of Fitzgerald. They and the politicians deserve each other. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Excuse me officer, you only stopped me for speeding. Therefore -- you can't arrest me for the 20 kilo's of cocaine you found in my car. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
...or $90,000 in the freezer. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
That's a great example -- 'Dollar Bill' Jefferson, by an extention of your logic in the Libby case a) hasn't been charged with a crime and b) the only evidence that might be used to charge him with a crime was generated in a 'Sting' that could easily be called entrapment. You should be defending him and questioning his investigation. quote: Investigations begin (or should) because of 'probable cause' Denise. The CIA obviously considered the Plame leak to be criminal or they wouldn't have referred it to the FBI for investigation. Certainly the CIA knew whether or not Valerie Wilson was a 'Covert' agent or not. But in addition to the leaking of a covert agent's identity -- it was also the unauthorized disclosure of classified information (unless of course -- the President had selectively 'declassified' it for political purposes the way he's selectively declassified other information) so both crimes were under investigation. The knowledge of Armitage as Novak's source though was no reason to stop investigating -- since other reporters were leaked to by other sources and the question of how the classified information came into the possession of those leakers and Armitage is all part of the question to answered in an investigation. You, like Johnson -- are perfectly at liberty to accuse Jefferson, and even entitled to think he's guilty. Only a court of law has to presume innocence. If you want to keep this up though -- you too will at some point have to join OJ in his search for the real killers -- since he was acquited in a criminal trial -- but found responsible in a civil trial. As in that case -- this one will be interesting again when the Wilson's civil case reaches court. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You, like Johnson -- are perfectly at liberty to accuse Jefferson ...along with any person level-headed enough to view the evidence. But it was entrapment! They tricked him! what a sneaky thing to do, for sure. We should all side with him for for being so deceived that he actually got caught. They actually searched his office! Is there no justice left??? They didn't just wake up one morning and say, "Let's go entrap a senator today." There had been lengthy investigations and plenty or reason to believe the man was dirty. Are you against sting operations then....foul play, perhaps? Interesting that, with the Democrats being so gung-ho about justice being done on so many fronts, they have no problem with this one dragging out. Had it been a Republican caught with almost a hundred grand of bribe money in the freezer, they would be applauding the sting operation results and demanding the evil-doer be in jail immediately. Instead we get "innocent until proven guilty" and charges of entrapment and boot out Gonzales for not doing his job. Well, I agree there. If Gonzales had done his job, this meathead would have gone up the river long ago. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Oh Yah We would be so much better With Hilary at the helm . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
And yet no one was charged for violating the Identities Act law and no one was convicted for revealing Classified Information, the supposed reasons for the investigation in the first place. I already said that if Libby committed perjury then he has to face the music. My main problem with all of this is that Democratic politicians are held to a different standard of justice. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
According to Plame's testimony before Congress today, she was covert at the time of her outting. That should settle that. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Good thing she never ever never told a lie then. But where was her paper trail? Oooooh. Forgot. She don't need one. Surely, her word is good enough. Afterall, she never had an occupation were telling lies with a straight face is a requirement. Besides which, had she been Covert then Fitzgerald would have put Armitage in prison for violating the protection acts for covert agents. She might have been 'Classified', but that is not 'Covert'. As far as I know, unless there are secret Bush prisons for CIA outters, noone has been tried, noone has been taken to court, noone has been before a judge receiving sentencing who has broken that Act in this instance. Libby was for perjury during the investigation, not for leaking classified information. That's the job of certain political outlets, like the New York Times, Boston Globe, LA Times, Time Magazine and the Associated Press. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, Iliana, if "that settles that" and someone simply stating something makes it a true fact, you must feel the same about statements from everyone, even GW. Why do I doubt that is so? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: And Al Capone was never indicted for murder, larceny, conspiracy, racketeering -- and OJ wasn't convicted of murder Denise. Your point is pointless. quote: Although my inclinations would be with your specific intent Mike -- I have to take issue with this philosophy. Reasonable persons can disagree and if we ever come to the point where we start believing that everyone who disagrees with us is unreasonable (or not level-headed) that will be a sure sign that we are being unreasonable. quote: Mike -- I'm only extending Denise's (unbiased ) logic regarding the Libby case to the Jefferson case. I'm not defending Jefferson in the least. quote: What Democrat has said anything about entrapment or tried to defend Jefferson? Show me. Pretend I'm from Misssouri. The Plame/Libby investigation trial started in 2003 Mike. It's 2007. Jefferson's investigation began in 2005. The only people who are dragging their feet, as you point out, is the JD, if they are indeed dragging their feet. The firings of the 8 Federal Prosecutors is a different issue entirely -- and worthy of a thread -- perhaps you should start one -- but it is germane to this thread to remind everyone that those prosecutors (including Fitzgerald) serve at the pleasure of the President and the President only. I'm sure the Jefferson prosecutor will be sure to drag him back into the spotlight in time for the 2008 elections. Aren't you? quote: Her testimony was made under oath and is impeachable by none other than the CIA -- the same CIA that won't let her publish a book about herself because she's classified. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, even The Donald is not afraid to face the truth about GW. I am really surprised that you would think that Ms. Plame would lie under oath in these circumstances especially. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
There are two understandings of the use of the word covert according to one of the authors of the Identities Protection Act who was on O'Reilly tonight. One usage is an informal usage and the other one is as defined under the Act. She explained that CIA folks often use covert, undercover, and classified status interchangably. She said that Plame may consider herself to have been covert in the more informal usage, thereby not lying when she says she was covert, but that she definitely was not covert as defined under the law in question. My point is not pointless L.R. My contention is that no one violated the laws in question, and therefore no one was able to be prosecuted for violating them, unlike in the Capone situation. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Which was 70 years ago. Not counting Capone's secret stash as documented by that hyperemotional nimrod: Gerraldo. And yeah, the FBI went after him with everything they had which would stick, as there was no CIA at the time, and I daresay the political dynamics were substantially different. Elliot Nash needed a lot more to get Al Capone, unlike the federal and state lawmen who gunned down Bonnie and Clyde in an ambush on a rural dirt road. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
if we ever come to the point where we start believing that everyone who disagrees with us is unreasonable (or not level-headed) that will be a sure sign that we are being unreasonable. I agree with that, LR, but in the area of beliefs or opinions. When people refuse to recognize facts, it is they who are unreasonable. The tapes were facts. The money in the freezer was a fact. The evidence against him was factual. To call anyone who cannot accept these points as fact unreasonable is....reasonable. What Democrat has said anything about entrapment or tried to defend Jefferson? Show me. Pretend I'm from Misssouri. Well, since I AM from Missouri, I'll try. There was a great cry from Democrats about the search of his office, demanding that evidence thrown out. Entrapment? You yourself began a comment in this thread concerning that.... " the only evidence that might be used to charge him with a crime was generated in a 'Sting' that could easily be called entrapment. You should be defending him and questioning his investigation." are your words. No, they have not tried to defend him but can you show me where any Democrat is calling for justice? This is a congressman who took bribes and committed felonies. Where is their call for action? Do you feel they would be so silent over it if the congressman were Republican? They have no problem screaming for the removal of Rice, Hastert, Bush, Gonzales.......where has any Democrat called for action against Jefferson? Nowhere is the correct answer. The firings of the 8 Federal Prosecutors is a different issue entirely -- and worthy of a thread -- perhaps you should start one Another criminal investigation of a non-criminal act? No, thanks. I am really surprised that you would think that Ms. Plame would lie under oath in these circumstances especially. Really, Iliana? Hey, if a sitting president like Billy can lie under oath why is it so far-fetched to think a CIA gal couldn't? Besides, they don't actually "lie" - they erroniously misrepresent. By the way, Iliana, this is what she actually did say.... Plame repeatedly described herself as a covert operative, a term that has multiple meanings. Plame said she worked undercover and traveled abroad on secret missions for the CIA. But the word "covert" also has a legal definition requiring recent foreign service by the person and active efforts to keep his or her identity secret. Critics of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation said Plame did not meet that definition for several reasons and that was why nobody was charged with the leak. "No process can be adopted to protect classified information that no one knows is classified. This looks to me more like a CIA problem than a White House problem," Davis said. Plame said she wasn't a lawyer and didn't know her legal status, but said it shouldn't have mattered to the officials who learned her identity. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
"Plame, the daughter of an Air Force colonel and an elementary school teacher, was recruited by the CIA at 22, shortly after graduation from Pennsylvania State University. She was in the 1985-86 class of CIA officers trained at "The Farm" near Williamsburg, where the curriculum included learning to drive under fire, blowing up cars and handling an AK-47. Her career postings are classified, but she was one of the elite clandestine spies -- an officer with nonofficial cover who works overseas in business or other jobs and has no diplomatic protection if detected or arrested." . . . . Washingtonn Post "Valerie Plame, The Spy Who Got Shoved Out Into the Cold" by Richard Leiby, October 29, 2005 Now to me, "nonofficial cover" and "no diplomatic protection" mean that she was a REAL, HONEST TO GOODNESS SPY. "Nonofficial" means the government can plausibly deny knowing her in case there's a problem, which to me means she did some pretty heavy-duty covert action. This whole case makes me very, very sad. Basically, it says you can lay your life on the line for this country, but when push comes to shove, we will leave you lying on the battle field. Of course, I guess that comes with the turf when you're an off-the-record, nonofficial spy. It says to me that there's retaliation if you don't support false intelligence and are bold enough to say so outloud like her husband did. I still say that this must send the shivers up the backs of other covert operatives or even potential operatives. Additionally, GW promised to launch a full investigation into this matter a long while back and never did. He promised to fire the person responsible for the leak (I did not say leaking a covert spy name, I said "the leak"). Security folks at the White House deny that any action was ever taken by the White House to investigate the leak, according to testimony provided to Congress yesterday. Only 2 of the 17 Republicans on the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform (the investigating committee) showed up to hear the testimony on Friday, the 16th (oh....it was a Friday...long weekend...I've heard about that 3-day work week). Instead, the Republicans would like to continue making this a partisan issue; their response is to play it down, ignore it, manipulate definitions of words, and let the "in-house" media monsters and their talking heads do the work for them. Yes, Balladeer, redefining words was a trick that Billy used....it's politics. Whether you like it or not, Ms. Plame was a soldier who got left out, or in this case allegedly put out, in the cold -- an occurrence that seems to be on the rise with this administration. Mike, for the record, here is what Ms. Plame really said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k3GuVTfWLw&mode=related&search= - Part I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxhBWOYTuNQ&mode=related&search= - Part II http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0K-pSNw_O4 - Part III [This message has been edited by iliana (03-17-2007 05:47 AM).] |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Yep. It ain't over. Plame; is by name "Radioactive." If she was just a bimbo who looked good in Ray-Bans, why is she banned from writing a book? Why is her future with the C.I.A destroyed? Why is she being shunned by those she was once employed with? Why are her contacts and family members in jeopardy? Why can't she qualify for full benefits in her retirement? Not our problem? Alright, sure. It still sucks out loud. And you know what the sad thing is? She was serving her country, regardless of all the p*ssin' contests between the Dems/Reps, she was performing whatever duty was asked of her. Crap needs to prove a new law to me. It should roll all the way up to Capitol Hill. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here is an article that gives some insight into the origins of the Wilson/Plame situation. Some of this I had forgotten, some I had never heard before. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54590 |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Very interesting, but be prepared for it to be dismissed out of hand. Afterall, there is advertising on that site which contain Christianity, Israel and American Conservatives. By the American Left logic, it is lies, lies and more lies...oh, and Bush is to blame. And Cheney. And Coulter....did I leave out Bush? Better add Bush again for good measure. Funny though, as in Reb's initial post where he quotes a BLOG I happened to notice a LOT of ads and posts slamming American Conservatives, Christians, Israel and President Bush. However, somehow all that is moot and the source inscrutible. So expect the same response as your Coulter article got. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, Balladeer, redefining words was a trick that Billy used....it's politics. I see. When Billy does it, it's politics. News flash for ya, Iliana. It's not politics....it's a felony and I repeat - if the President of the United States can engage in it during an investigation, why is it so incredible to believe a CIA agent can't? Yet you will take her version and words without question. - Only 2 of the 17 Republicans on the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform (the investigating committee) showed up to hear the testimony on Friday, the 16th - their response is to play it down, ignore it, manipulate definitions of words, and let the "in-house" media monsters and their talking heads do the work for them. - an occurrence that seems to be on the rise with this administration. - the Republicans would like to continue making this a partisan issue; looks to me like the Republicans aren't the only ones making it a partisan issue. You're doing a pretty good job of it yourself Nice try, Denise, but if it doesn't come from the Washington Post or some such clone, it just ain't worthy of consideration |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Balladeer, I do not disagree it is a felony to lie before Congress -- no arguement there. However, we were not talking about that, or at least that is not how I interpreted what I had responded to as meaning that. I responded to the idea of redefining words or giving words multiple meanings. If you don't think that is politics, then I guess I don't have any more argument to convince you...lol. Once again, I am an independent voice here viewing the situation objectively. I am still a registered republican, knowledgeable about my party politics but I do not let my party affiliation blind me...and when I say I believe the Republicans intend to keep this a partisan battle, I truely believe I am correct. I believe the Democrats (a majority of them and even some stray Republicans) would like to see the Congress come together and get the balance of power straightened out and that this is an avenue to start that process. It might ultimately end up with Cheney's resignation when all the sorting out is done and that is what Reb's thread is ultimately about. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No, what I was referring to was your surprise that I would consider the possibility that she would give an untrue statement. As I pointed out, there have been precedents set there, including Slick Willie's. Simply because someone says something doesn't make it true Sorry for the confusion... |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Additionally, Mike, there was testimony by the head of CIA that she was indeed a covert agent. If you need the specific reference, I will look it up. I do not believe she lied. I won't argue that it isn't possible for anyone to lie, but in this case, the CIA supports her claim. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
"The current director of the CIA, Gen. Michael Hayden, told Waxman so." http://www.nypost.com/seven/03172007/news/columnists /panel_fails_to_blow_real_culprits_cover_columnists_john_podhoretz.htm (Though I disagree with the tone of this article, in general, it does confirm her status.) The only real question, Mike, is whether or not the White House leakers knew she was covert. Now that is the Republican's talking point and defense. How could they not know? News anchor Chris Matthews testified that he was told that Valerie Plame was fair game by Karl Rove. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
But what neither she nor the head of the CIA will say is that she was covert as defined by the Identities Protection Act. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Denise...lol...have you ever considered that the CIA does not want to violate their own policies by exposing secret agents? They have not denied what she claims, have they? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
She is already 'outed' Iliana. There would be no harm done now if they were to offer proof that she qualified as covert under the Identities Protection Act definition. And she and the CIA would if they could. But they can't because she wasn't. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
It would still be a violation of their confidentiality agreements and their policies to identify her any further. You are on the losing side of this battle and it is no use to argue it. The White House retaliated; yes! she was outted. That is the issue here. Did they or did they not know; did they intentially retaliate because they were upset with Joe Wilson or not? That is the issue. There has been a pattern of this type of behavior from this administration and perhaps in other administrations, too. But we are dealing with THIS ONE at this time. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Wow -- this guy is good; quote: Hmmm... guess we should tell him about google huh? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32195-2004Jul6.html http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1148445.htm even the venerated fair and balanced Fox forgot to make a big deal out of it: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124924,00.html how do you guys find anything WND publishes credible? The only insight here Denise is that your source remains completely myopic, self-promoting, and has little regard for the intellect of it's readers -- or it might check some facts every once in a great while. quote: Left or Right Cat, a lie as easily exposed as a lie has nothing to do with ideology. quote: Context Cat? In what context do I quote Emanuuel? Do I use him as a source? Am I using 'facts' based on his blog entry? Or did I merely post his opinion and ask yours? Did I find his opinion credible? Or did I find it 'far-fetched'? Still -- I've looked for those anti-Christian ads you're referring to and -- all I couldn't find any -- perhaps they're blocked on my computer? quote: I like to believe what I see with my own eyes Mike -- but, it is a matter of perspective -- most of the time we just see what we expect. Like the man who rounded the corner at the supermarket only to see one of the customers laying on the floor struggling as a large black man was beating him. He went to call the police -- but would find out that the PARAMEDICS were on the way to assist the man who'd had a heart attack and was receiving CPR from another customer. It won't take MUCH to convince me that Jefferson is guilty -- but isn't it a shame the jury pool is so tainted? quote: Context Mike? What context? quote: Not really - the CBC defended him -- that is true -- but the majority of the Dems in Congress pushed him off the Ways and Means Committee instantly. I doubt that I would want him on the Homeland Security committee either -- but, Katrina did hit his home district -- where all those people voted him back into the Congress. If you keep him on the bench it seems that a whole lot of people aren't in the game. quote: I don't think there's a criminal investigation Mike. And it's true that administrations can replace US Attorneys for any reason or no reason. But, if politicos were pressuring those U.S. Attorneys to prosecute where there was no merit or to lay off prosecution where there was merit - then that is a criminal matter Mike -- don't you think so? quote: I've already posted the entire text of the Identities Protection Act here -- and it clearly says 'served' not lived, and the CIA was actively keeping her identity secret as was indicated in the indictment and the simple fact that the CIA created and maintained Brewster Jennings and Associates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Jennings_%26_Associates in order for her to work (covertly) on WMD issues -- a vital asset to our nation in a war on terror. Gathering enough evidence to prosecute such a violation does require that one be able to prove what the perpetrators believed -- something that is not easy to do. But, Denise has already stipulated that Plame was 'classified'. That's a Title 18 violation and a violation of non-disclosures right there -- You don't even need the IPA. Here's the question for you though Mike, and Denise and Cat and Pete -- do you think it was a MORAL thing for Libby, Rove, Armitage, and Fliescher to reveal Valerie Wilson's identity? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
**Removed by self** |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
My daughter used to throw her spoon on the floor. I'd pick it up, wipe it off, throw it in the sink and get her a new spoon. She'd repeat the process. So here's an idea Cat -- research those questions (you can find some of the answers right here on this thread) and get back to us with the documentation. My replay button isn't working anymore. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
sighs... Is it possible for a person, downwind from Oak Ridge, to suffer from the affects of radioactive wastes? No one will say. I'm worried, seriously. Why have those people been seen taking soil samples all around the area in full Hazmat suits? Why are the streams I used to swim and fish in as a child now off limits to even wading? What have WE done? radioactivity seems to be a common occurrence, in everything. In everyone. The levels are what matters, yes? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The CIA can reveal that she was covert, but they can't reveal that she was covert as defined under the Identities Act? That makes no sense at all Iliana. And it has not been proven that she was outed by the White House nor for the purpose of retaliation, Iliana. That is an assumption made by Plame, Wilson, and the CIA that was not able to be proven. And yet it is still treated as gospel fact by the left. What is a fact is that she was outed by Armitage (who is no fan of the White House Administration) and her name confirmed by someone in the CIA to Novak. I will email the author of the article, L.R., to inform him of his error that no other media source folliowed up on the enriched uranium removal story other than WND. I don't see that that error negates the story though. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I like to believe what I see with my own eyes Mike -- but, it is a matter of perspective -- most of the time we just see what we expect. I see. So we expected to see videotapes of bribe-taking and cash in the freezer and VIOLA! There they were! Amazing how that works, no? If you want to speak of things out of context, your example given sets the bar. I like to see with my own eyes, too, LR, but I was busy the night OJ went berzerk or when Dahlmer went on his feeding frenzy. Sometimes we have to rely on facts in evidence and common sense, which is becoming increasingly less common. Speaking of OJ, what was that about tainted juries again? Yes, the jury pool would be probably be tainted......with evidence The tapes with Jefferson in the lead role could indeed make a juror suspicious, as could pictures of the frozen ninety grand.....but, then, no one actually saw him put it in there, did they? Who's to say someone else didn't break into his office and stash the cash or maybe, like the tooth fairy, there's a Frigidaire Fairy, who leaves money when one loses a tv dinner? Not really - the CBC defended him -- that is true -- but the majority of the Dems in Congress pushed him off the Ways and Means Committee instantly. I doubt that I would want him on the Homeland Security committee either -- but, Katrina did hit his home district -- where all those people voted him back into the Congress. If you keep him on the bench it seems that a whole lot of people aren't in the game. Apparently you didn't understand the question so let me repeat it...where has any Democrat called for action against Jefferson? You speak of taking him off a committee and keeping him on the bench? Where is the call to have him tried for felonies?? Where is the call to action and venom-spewing that would have occured had Jefferson been a Republican? You make it sound like kicking a child molester out of the PTA or banning him from the Friday night poker game would show that you were serious about this man paying for his crimes. Maybe they should just take away his freezer???? But, if politicos were pressuring those U.S. Attorneys to prosecute where there was no merit or to lay off prosecution where there was merit - then that is a criminal matter Mike -- don't you think so? Is it? I really don't know, LR. If your boss says, "Know that I can fire you for any reason at any time I want" and then fires you for a reason other than the one he gives you, is that against what he said to you, since ANY reason is within his power? I agree with you that it would be a bad day for law enforcement and the country should that happen.......but did it? The Democrats make the claim that lawyers were fired for going after Republicans. I read in the paper that, in at least two cases, fired attorneys had been targeting and prosecuting Democrats. What then? I know.....let's have an INVESTIGATION! That's the only thing this is all about......another investigation on the front pages concerning this blasted administration. That has been the Democrat game plan for a few years now alnog with help from the press. Investigate Cheney, investigate Gitmo, investigate Haliburtin, investigate surveillance tactics, investigate Hastert, investigate Bush's military service record,,,,,,,,,,,it doesn't matter if the investigation reveals nothing. They get days or weeks of headlines out of it and the average citizen on the street thinking "Sure seem to be a lot of investigations going on." That's what they care about - nothing to do with Truth, Justice and the American Way. They have an "investigation of the day" game plan with eyes squinted open on the lookout for anything that could provoke the next one. Hillary, in one of her brilliant speeches, said the other day "Our standing and reputation in the world matters!" Oh, really? They flood world news with accusations and investigations against the administration, give the impression that the country is run by corruption and lawlessness and then speak of our "reputation". I'll tell you what our reputation is. I read a blog the other day about the towelhead who confessed to mastermining 9-11 and the overwhelming responses from Europeans ran along the lines of...."Who can believe the Americans? Everybody knows that they torture and beat the prisoners at Guantanamo. Anybody would say anything to get them to stop." That's our reputation in the world. Did anything come out of the Democrat investigation of gitmo? Nope...so what? They accomplished their mission. If it hurt the country, so what? What is bad for a Bush-led America is good for them. They could care less about how the country is viewed by the eyes of the world. Checks and balances are good. Dissent with policies is also good. One does it, though, in the proper way. You sit down with the other side and say "We disagree with you and want to discuss our difference." The Democrat way, however, is to call the newspapers and get their dissent across the front pages first. They ran investigation after investigation to get Senate control. Now that they have it, they are still running invrestigation after investigation to set the tone for the next elections. We are seeing the only reason they wanted to win......they are, and have been, out to get Bush with more investigations after investigations. Their hatred of the little rooster who dismisses them is too overwhelming to stop. If they were to put one tenth of the effort they put into going after Bush into actually doing something beneficial for the country, things would get accomplished. Calling for unending investigations serves the purpose of camouflaging the fact that they are NOT doing anything beneficial for the country. By all means, have another investigation........what else have they got to do? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Let's see if I've got this right, Mike. Your contention is that good Americans, duly elected to represent the majority of good Americans in their geographical area, hate one man so much they are willing to destroy the country they serve? So, basically, what you're saying is that in spite of all his promises in both elections, Bush's greatest claim to fame is that he has polarized this nation as no other President before him? Wow. I don't much like Bush, but that's probably a stronger condemnation of the man than I would ever have offered. Sigh. Sadly, adversarial systems, such as we have in the courts and in our government, stop working when people hate each other more than they love the goals they pursue. In a time more dangerous than most, I honestly hope the partisans in Washington are less full of vitriol than those in these forums. Else this country is surely doomed. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: You mean, in your expectations, I've beaten Ron? Thanks Mike! Our expectations relate to how we interpret what we see Mike. That's where our perspective comes in. Which is why you try so hard to paint me as a Democrat. It unsettles you that someone who tries as hard as I do to be unbiased finds fault in things Republicans do. You would feel better if I was a Democrat -- that way you could just convince yourself that it's all just politics. quote: There has been a 'Democrat' investigation of gitmo? I must have missed that -- could you show it to me please? I'm not following your logic at all Mike. The way we can reduce the crime rate in America is to stop pursuing criminals? quote: It isn't a story Denise. It's a completely unresearched and undocumented op-ed disguised as a story. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
You poeple listen to Ann? Well I take her to good humor, but she is the micheal more of the republican party. Oh well. Did you know that both bushes and clinton are part of skull and bones. In fact alot of our leaders are. ITs WIERD> Anyways my point is bad people back both parties. To call "republicans" or "demacrates" evil is wrong. Everyone of you are adult enough to know better, really. As a conservative, this all confuses me. The wife in the cia was not undercover. she worked in the office. right now she has a book out she is trying to sell. apparently she told everyone she was in the cia and it was no great secrete. It bothers me when people want to see someone appeached. personally I don't wish that. It bothers me when poeple say america will fall in the next five years, and it bothers me when I hear poeple wish(not predict)that we will lose in iraq. I hope Iraq is a lesson that US is too immature to play the war games. And I hope everyone sees the difference between Iraq and viatnam. -Juju |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I was talking of the enriched uranium find, L.R., that story. But was there any other statement in his article that you found to be inaccurate, particulary regarding Wilson, other than his erroneous claim that WND was the only news source that followed up on the story (hmmm...maybe that wasn't an error at all, maybe he meant subsequent coverage of it after the initial article)? And would it unsettle you to learn that those who disagree with your veiwpoints were not Republicans? I think a more appropriate distinction is Liberal and Conservative rather than Democrat and Republican. I think most of us see ourselves as attempting to be unbiased. But I think that is a subjective estimation rather than an objective one. I think we are all biased to some degree, despite our efforts not to be. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Just start with the first paragraph Denise -- here's a reprint of his NYT article that started the onslaught; quote: Where is the lie Denise? Jack says: quote: from the indictment; quote: quote: Why would it Denise? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Let's see if I've got this right, Mike. Your contention is that good Americans, duly elected to represent the majority of good Americans in their geographical area, hate one man so much they are willing to destroy the country they serve? So, basically, what you're saying is that in spite of all his promises in both elections, Bush's greatest claim to fame is that he has polarized this nation as no other President before him? Wow...applause!! Chubby Checker only invented the twist....you have perfected it! Sigh. Sadly, adversarial systems, such as we have in the courts and in our government, stop working when people hate each other more than they love the goals they pursue. I agree totally, Ron, and that's exactly where we have been for several years, thanks to the Democratic leadership. That's why you don't see the hundreds of good things that are happening in Iraq. That's why soldiers are shocked when they return home to read what the papers have to say. That's why, when the economy has reached it's highest peak in many years, when unemployment is at a record low, you won't hear one Democrat (those of the "It's the economy, stupid" generation), have one good thing to say about it. Sadly, the Democrats HAVE reached that level you describe. What good has happened under a Republican administration is to be ignored and whatever they can dig up or create to cast a disfavorable stone is to be exploited. Look at the fiasco they tried to make of the Dubai port purchase. can you honestly tell me you believe they did that in good faith....or was it to stir up the populace? What about the surveillance program they got so much mileage out of? Most claimed they weren't saying anything was illegal and they weren't saying it was something they would not have approved but but but.....front page stuff. Impeach Bush! Kick out Rice! Boot Hastert! Crucify Gonzales! It goes on and on.......No, they cannot destroy the country. They only want it to look as pathetic as possible under Republican control......therefore the only thing to do is to get the Democrats in there to save the day. Would they be happy to see it wounded if it meant some kind of victory for them? In a hearbeat. Exactly what goals do the Democrats pursue that you refer to? I've seen no goals with the exception of their "Get Bush" policy. That is certainly all that is occupying their time and energy. Hillary is gung-ho on health care and the liberal press won't even remind her she was in charge of it for eight years and did nothing. Yes, I state that their ambition is much more important to them than the good of the country. You mean, in your expectations, I've beaten Ron? Thanks Mike! Yes, you SHOULD feel honored, LR. That is not an easy accomplishment. There has been a 'Democrat' investigation of gitmo? I must have missed that -- could you show it to me please? That must have been happening when you were watching tv or playing with the kids. I'll be happy to when I have more time. For your information, it lost it's steam when Kennedy went down as part of this investigation you never heard of and could find nothing to report. It unsettles you that someone who tries as hard as I do to be unbiased finds fault in things Republicans do. No, to be truthful, it unsettle me when these are the only times you show up......there are three or four of you with that trait. You claim unbias but mysteriously have other things to do when threads concerning Democratic shenanigans show up. There was a thread on Hillary and her past, including the missing FBI files, travel office, stealing the silverware upon her departure from the White House, among other things....where were you? I can point out several threads involving Democrats where your input, along with the Wizard's, would have added to the discussion, but they all must have occured during your "busy" times. No problem there. No one is required to respond anywhere they don't want to........it's curious, though, that when something like Libby shows up, there you are, initiating the discussion and talking now about how hard you try to be unbiased. Your actions belie that statement, good sir. Others must have your same schedule also because those are the only times THEY show up. Funny how that works..... THAT is the only thing I take issue with....but that's my problem, not yours. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well Mike -- if you're referring to the Senate Armed Services committee investigation of Gitmo; http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380.html these all occured under Republican control of the House and Senate -- so, one of us may be confused about the 'Decomcrat investigation' and about whether or not they 'found' anything. quote: Well, lets see... where is the Walter Reed Thread I started Mike? The FBI abused the Patriot Act thread? The Justice Department/US Attorney firing scandal thread ? The Gays in the Military/General Pace thread? The Mark Foley thread? Conrad Burns? Duke Cunningham? It seems like I've missed a lot of opportunities Mike. But, thanks again for calling me a liar. quote: Is this your own personal equivocation on Jack's behalf Denise? Either way -- the follow-ups were of the critical variety http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/09/iraq/main628378.shtml http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35404-2004Jul7.html |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
quote: Libby was convicted on two counts of perjury, one count of obstruction of justice and one count of making false statements to federal investigators. These charges were not made under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. So why, Denise, do you believe it is necessary for the CIA to divulge any more than it already has? I think the material you must be using for your sourcing is older than the current facts to the case. To further that presumption on my part, I refer to your belief that Armitage alone outted Plame. If you watched the YouTube video links I posted earlier, you will see that there were charts made and used as evidence based on evidence used at Libby's trial which were used in the hearings that indicated several tiers of how the leak(s) occurred, traveled and origins...Armitage was only one of them. It is known that it was a highly coordinated effort involving many people. What is not known is who ordered Cheney and Rove, if anyone, to let the leak out. [This message has been edited by iliana (03-18-2007 06:47 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
quote: OMG, I must have somehow missed that little winkie-smilie thingy after that statement. Man, I sure hope lightning doesn't strike in your area even. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Denise -- here's the chart: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=4283 |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I'd never call you a liar, LR, believe me. I said something like Libby shows up and you're there initiating a thread. I did not say that you covered every one....you DID cover Libby, which validates the point. You also did NOT respond to many dealing with Democrats, which further validates it. You may not be or consider yourself biased against the administration but, believe me, that is not the impression you give others, based on the selectivity and direction of your responses. No biggie...I was just responding to you "sensitivity' comment. WASHINGTON - The Senate Judiciary Committee chairman said Sunday he intends to subpoena White House officials involved in ousting federal prosecutors and is dismissing anything short of their testimony in public. "I want testimony under oath. I am sick and tired of getting half-truths on this," Leahy said. "I do not believe in this, we'll have a private briefing for you where we'll tell you everything, and they don't. Ok, here we go again.... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Mike! I'm completely biased against this administration. It wasn't always so though was it? Prior to the war the Bush Administration had my support -- didn't it? Wasn't I the guy who kept saying that we don't have access to the intelligence that the administration does and that we had to give them the benefit of the doubt? Wasn't that me on percussion when the drums of war were beating? My bias is a learned bias. Prior to that I hated everybody equally. What I am completely deviod of though -- is partisan bias. I do have opinions, but I form them as much as possible based on objective evidence -- that I share freely for everyone to review as well. I notice that no one will answer my question though -- doesn't anyone want to give it a shot? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I never said it was Armitage alone, Iliana. I said Armitage was the one who 'leaked' to Novak. But your chart is interesting. I assume that most of those people were subject to the investigation, at least, if not brought before the grand jury. Why were none of them, especially the primary 'leakers' in the CIA and State Department, without whom no subsequent 'leak' could have happend in the first place, not charged with anything if Plame were covert under the Identities Act or even given her classified status? L.R., Jack said to google "1.77 tons" and see how woefully lacking follow-up coverage was by the MSM. And I believe his point was that by comparing Wilson's first op-ed piece with his latest is where you will find the measure of the man. Moral politicians?! Isn't that an oxymoron?! Well truth be told, I was aware of one but he was voted out this past election. A great loss to the Senate. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Denise, I really don't know the answer to your question, but maybe it is because they did not commit perjury or try to obstruct justice.??? Just a thought. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Denise, also, I do not know the sequence of the leaks. This chart was based on Libby's testimony in his criminal trial. Who knows, there may be further prosecution. Does anyone know about that yet? Oh, and please...it is not my chart; just a reference. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: So then he admits that he's both a liar and not a very good researcher. Tell him to google "iraq+uranium+radioactive+materials", assuming that he hasn't -- he might be surprised --however his opinion "woefully inadequate" is quite different from his published 'fact' -- "Not a word was heard of it from the major networks." Of course -- if he's willing to begin his column with an entire paragraph of bald-faced lies then -- why not equivocate over the rest of it? My guess is, that he's perfectly aware of the coverage and found that it didn't support his unique position as a conspiracy theorist (aka propagandist). quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: I'd like to read Wilson's first column -- he's quite proud of it and says that he sent copies to Bush Sr. and Scowcroft when it came out and they agreed with him. quote: He certainly doesn't seem to find any shame in that article -- nor see it as anything that impeaches his statements. And, frankly, from what Cashill gives us -- it doesn't -- it's perfectly logical to assume that Wilson was under the same impression as everyone (who didn't have access to all the intelligence) that Saddam did, indeed, have WMD's -- but Wilson's trip only failed to verify that Saddam had sought Uranium recently from Niger -- but somehow that bit of faulty intelligence made it into a State of the Union speech. This is, however, all a red herring Denise -- because the issue isn't Joseph Wilson -- but Valerie Wilson. Let's just assume that Joe is a bald-faced liar. That is not liscnce to disclose classified information or expose a CIA operative. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Maybe I should have phrased my question differently, Iliana. If Valerie Plame was indeed a covert agent as defined under the Identities Protection Act, then why were none of the people on that chart, or anyone else who was questioned during the investigation who admitted to disclosing her name & occupation to anyone else, charged with that crime, disclosing her identity nor charged with revealing classified information? L.R., I don't think that those pieces qualify as substantive investigative reports on the uranium that was found. They are articles merely attempting to downplay the find, in my opinion. No, it is no red herring. Joe Wilson is probably the main issue in this whole affair. His contention that the White House outed his wife, in retalition for his op-ed piece (in which he himself revealed still-classified information), or for any other reason, has not been proven. I believe that it was his attempt (along with Valerie Plame and others in the CIA, assisted by some left wing media types) to create a scandal for the administration and to put himself in the spotlight, just as the Democrats are now trying to do with the Federal Prosecutor firings. Joe Wilson is the one whom I would love to see put under oath. I'd love to see how many versions of events he can recall and keep straight. Maybe he could start with whether or not he revealed to anyone that his wife worked at the CIA prior to Novak reporting it. I don't think that he would evade a perjury charge himself. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Denise, perhaps you did not read the first part of my earlier response....it was, "I really don't know..." Sorry, I cannot give you the answer you want. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Denise, perhaps the below and the article in which it is contained will be an answer for you: quote: I don't know the timetable for grand jury investigations or bringing criminal action, but perhaps, Fitzgerald just plain ran out of time before he had enough evidence. You can read the whole article here: http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/10/02/120347.php As far as I know, retaliation alone is not a criminal charge. I believe that is why Reb asked you whether you believed it was morally wrong. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
The Democrat congress is filled with "not criminal" charges and no one who supported Clinton or did not call for his head can believe anything is "morally wrong". |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, what? If you will check every thread in the Alley, you will find I have never supported Clinton. I think what he did was totally stupid and deplorable. That is an old story, Mike. This is the current one (sort of, anyway). The difference here was the manner in which someone was screwed. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
hehe...nice choice of words, Iliana , but I wasn't referring to Billy's sexual escapades. Nor was I referring to you. My little Clinton quip had to do with the 900 missing FBI files, the White House Travel Bureau scandal, the 19 convicted because of the 1996 Clinton-Gore fundraising scandals, the President with greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions and the greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad, the fifty times Hillary Clinton said "I don't recall" or its equivalent in a statement to a House investigating committee, the 271 times Bill Clinton said "I don't recall" or its equivalent in the released portions of the his testimony on Paula Jones, the 10 journalists covering Whitewater who have been fired, transferred off the beat, resigned or otherwise gotten into trouble because of their work on the scandals, etc etc. Heard anyone willing to discuss the "morality" of these issues or any Democrat congressman eaising a fussover them or demanding investigation after investigation? Wanna talk about attorney generals and how they relate to the Gonzales case? How about Janet Reno and Reno's unprecedented decision to fire all 93 U.S. Attorneys? How about Reno stopping the FBI from asking White House and DNC officials, including Clinton and Gore, about their roles in the fundraising scandals? How about the fact that Reno reportedly told Senators in a closed-door meeting she was unaware of Los Angeles businessman Ted Sioeng's contributions to the DNC and his possible links to China when in fact, she knew about them? http://www.mediaresearch.org/realitycheck/1997/fax19971203.asp Face it, people. This is all nothing more than another ridiculous attempt by Democrats to go after the administration wherever they can. The following article says it all.... The March 13 Washington Post erupted on the front page with the revelation that the White House played a role in the dismissal of eight U.S. Attorneys. “Firings Had Genesis In White House,” screamed the headline. Documents showed that back in 2005, White House counsel Harriet Miers recommended the idea to the Justice Department that all 93 U.S. Attorneys be replaced. Instead, the Bush team dismissed only eight. But something quite amazing was omitted by those hard-charging Post reporters Dan Eggen and John Solomon digging through White House E-mails for their scandalized front-page bombshell. Didn’t Bill Clinton’s brand new Attorney General Janet Reno demand resignations from all 93 U.S. attorneys on March 24, 1993? Wouldn’t that fact be relevant to the story? Wouldn’t it have the effect of lessening the oh-my-God hyperbole on the front page if the reader was shown that what Bush did was one-tenth as dramatic as what Team Clinton did? Yes, and yes. Bush’s attorney general fired eight. Clinton’s fired 93. The media think the eight dismissals were a scandal so massive some have begun calling on Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to resign. But they thought the 93 Clinton firings were not worth investigating for the length of a cigarette break. Can a liberal double standard be any more obvious? The Washington Post was by no means alone. The March 13 New York Times also hyped the story of the White House looking into dismissing U.S. attorneys on page one – and reporters David Johnston and Eric Lipton also completely skipped the fact of Janet Reno’s “March Massacre.” ABC’s “Good Morning America” on March 13 carried a story from Justice Department correspondent Pierre Thomas, and he also completely skipped the Clinton-Reno firings. Worse yet, in the middle of this episode of amnesia, ABC brought on George Stephanopoulos – who defended the Clinton firings as the White House spokesman in 1993 – to describe this as an urgent matter putting pressure on Karl Rove to testify before Congress and for Gonzales to resign! But surely the media gave the Reno order equal, if not ten-fold coverage back in ‘93, right? Think again. ABC never reported it. The New York Times front-page headline yawned: “Attorney General Seeks Resignations from Prosecutors.” (At least an editorial the next day blasted Reno’s move as “an odd first step in the wrong direction.”) The Washington Post demonstrated a much richer double standard. While the Post has filed six heavy-breathing front-page stories on their newest Bush scandal, back in 1993, the story was over within a day or two. They reported Janet Reno’s purge on the front page, utterly without suspicion: “The Clinton administration yesterday requested that the nation's 93 U.S. attorneys submit their resignations, a move that likely will mean the quick departure of two figures who have played prominent roles in the politics of the District and Virginia.” The headline was simply “Washington Area to Lose 2 High-Profile Prosecutors; All U.S. Attorneys Told to Tender Resignations.” They then added helpfully that Reno said it was routine. http://www.mediaresearch.org/BozellColumns/newscolumn/2007/col20070314.asp Where was the Democrat indignation and "moral" issues there? They are payasos. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
No question about it, Mike. Clinton did change out the Justice Department and line it up with his politics. Not an usual thing to do either. That was early on in his administration, wasn't it? What is unusual about this ... and I think this all should be a separate thread if you want to talk about the Gonzalez issue ... is that it occurred during the middle of Bush's second term, a very unusual precedent, which draws attention and suspicion in and of itself. Additionally, Pres. Bush, himself admitted mistakes were made in this instance.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/14/fired.attorneys/index.html |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
OMG, how deep must one reach into the political sewer to find some lame excuse making this firing of 8 so much more dastardly than the previous firing of 93. Oh wait, I forgot, that's old history. Oh wait again, I also forgot, that was a democrat. Give us all a break. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Not A Poet, I have no idea what sewer you are talking about, nor do I follow your logic at all. I was not the one who did the dredging...that was Mike. You just throw out an attack with no basis. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Citizens need to pay attention to the actions of their civil servants, including the White House, whether they are Democratic, Republican, Independent, Green or whatever. Everyone is entitled to observe and have their own feelings and write their congresspeople and senators to express their views. This is OUR government. Why do some of you only want to see down party lines and then change the argument rather than address the real issue? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Actually, there are some pretty significant differences between what past President's have done and what the current administration has recently done. Yes, other Presidents, including Clinton, have removed U.S. Attorneys en masse. They've also traditionally appointed their own Cabinets. I think it's a shame that politicians get help in elections by promising jobs in return for favors, but that's the way it is. Gonzales didn't clean house. His firings were very selective, very targeted, which raises obvious questions as to WHY these individual were selected. Job performance? The evidence seems to suggest otherwise. The questions, so far, remain unanswered. We obviously can't have a situation where the Executive branch can tell the Justice Department to aggressively go after one political party and passively ignore the other party. Democrat, Republican, it makes no difference. Some parts of the government must remain nonpartisan. While not yet quite on a par with the Nixon administration, the Bush people have a history of political retribution. I think that makes this a fair question to explore. If people were fired because they refused to follow a partisan mandate, either spoken or unspoken, then we've got a huge problem. When Justice plays favorites there can be no justice. Personally, it doesn't matter to me in the least whether this is just political maneuvering (which it well may be). I don't care their motivations as long as the hard questions continue to get asked. That's our adversarial system at work, this is exactly where it works very well. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I've chosen to keep quiet on this particular issue until more details were revealed, but I have to say one thing, and that is I'm not surprised many want several White House aides under oath when Alberto Gonsales can't even keep his own story straight: Here's what Alberto Gonzales said almost two weeks ago... Transcript of Media Availability with Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales: March 13, 2007 - 2:20 P.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: What I know is that there began a process of evaluating strong performers, not-as-strong performers, and weak performers. And so far as I knew my chief of staff was involved in the process of determining who were the weak performers. Where were the districts around the country where we could do better for the people in that district, and that's what I knew. But again, with respect to this whole process, like every CEO, I am ultimately accountable and responsible for what happens within the department. But that is in essence what I knew about the process; was not involved in seeing any memos, was not involved in any discussions about what was going on. That's basically what I knew as the Attorney General. QUESTION: Were there any discussions between you and the White House regarding you stepping down or Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty stepping down, and with regard to the Chief of Staff Kyle Sampson, is he still here at the Justice Department working? ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: Kyle Sampson has resigned. I accepted his resignation yesterday as chief of staff. As a technical matter he is still at the department as he transitions out and looks for other employment. With respect to the first part of your question, I work for the American people. I serve with the pleasure of the President of the United States. I will say in doing my job it is easier to have the confidence of members of the Congress and I will continue to do the very best that I can to maintain that confidence and that's what I intend to do: continue to do my job on behalf of the American people, ascertain what happened here, and assess accountability and take corrective actions. Obviously I am concerned about the fact that information, incomplete information, was communicated or may have been communicated to the Congress. I believe very strongly in our obligation to ensure that when we provide information to the Congress, it is accurate and that it is complete and I am very dismayed that that may not have occurred here. QUESTION: How could your chief of staff be working closely with the President on which U.S. attorneys to be let go and you not know the specifics? ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: Well, again, as -- I accept responsibility for everything that happens here within this department. But when you have 110,000 people working in the department obviously there are going to be decisions that I'm not aware of in real time. Many decisions are delegated. We have people who were confirmed by the Senate who, by statute, have been delegated authority to make decisions. Mr. Sampson was charged with directing the process to ascertain who were weak performers, where we could do better in districts around the country. That is a responsibility that he had during the transition. We worked with respect to U.S. attorneys and presidential personnel at the White House. That was the role that he had when he was in the counsel's office. That was the role that he had when he was at the Department of Justice under General Ashcroft and so naturally when questions came up with respect to the evaluation of performances of U.S. Attorneys it would be Kyle Sampson who would drive that effort. Yes, ma'am? QUESTION: With all due respect, your -- the sense of being a CEO sounds a little bit like Ken Lay, that he was so detached from the day to day operations. How can you make that statement given the fact that you spend an enormous time at the White House and your chief of staff reports to you and spends, you know, all day with you? ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: Again, I accept responsibility for what happened here and I regret the fact that information was inadequately shared with individuals within the department of Justice and that consequently information was shared with the Congress that was incomplete. But the charge for the chief of staff here was to drive this process and the mistake that occurred here was that information that he had was not shared with individuals within the department who was then going to be providing testimony and information to the Congress. QUESTION: (Off mic.) ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: I just described for Pete the extent of my -- of the knowledge that I had about the process. I never saw documents. We never had a discussion about where things stood. What I knew was that there was ongoing effort that was led by Mr. Sampson, vetted through the Department of Justice, to ascertain where we could make improvements in U.S. attorney performances around the country." * Yet, we learn today of the following: * MSNBC: March 24, 2007 "President Bush is standing firmly behind his embattled attorney general despite Justice Department documents that show Alberto Gonzales was more involved in the decisions to fire U.S. attorneys than he previously indicated. Gonzales said last week he was not involved in any discussions about the impending dismissals of federal prosecutors. On Friday night, however, the department disclosed Gonzales’ participation in a Nov. 27 meeting where such plans were discussed." * "At that session, Gonzales signed off on the plan, which was crafted by his chief of staff, Kyle Sampson. Sampson resigned last week." * So what I will say for the time being is with seeming contradictions such as this, it shouldn't surprise the White House why many want these particular individuals under oath, as we've already seen several times before differing results when an official speaks under oath comapred to when one doesn't speak under oath. No one is arguing here that other presidents have resorted to wide, abrupt firings of attorney generals. But I admit it's curious to me why, in contrast to many firings traditionally being done so at the very beginning of a presidential term, here we have far more meticulous, random firings conducted in the middle of a presidential term, especially when some of them shared some of the highest job performance grades. I believe the central issues of this inquiry are: 1) whether any of the eight fired U.S. attorneys were asked to step down for political intents; 2) if political aides in the White House played some role in the firings or were connected somehow, 3) whether replacing independent-minded prosecutors was a way of influencing ongoing or future investigations for whatever reason, and in the more generic sense, 4) whether this adminsitration has illegitimately politicized the justice system. In regards to the latter point, it certainly appears a strong majority of Americans believe the firings were politically-motivated, as the polls reflect, and I think regardless of whoever from whichever party is in power, the public is rightfully concerned about this sort of thing. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: And neither Congress nor the American people should be surprised when the President fights that and ultimately, I believe, wins the fight. You cannot get honest advice from people when everything they say is said in public. And that's exactly what a Congressional subpoena does -- it potentially opens everything you've ever said or done to public scrutiny. There is a fine line between secrecy and confidentiality. Presidential (and legislative!) aides need to be guaranteed the latter if they are to be effective. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Iliana, I think Pete was referring to your pointing out that the Clinton firings occurred during the beginning of his administration while Bush's occured during his second term and things like that that came across as some small justification for taking one seriously and ignoring the other. Ron, yes, bi-partisonship is a must somewhere in the government but you are too intelligent of a man not to believe that it is exactly that causing this assault by the Democrats in congress. As far as selective firings are concerned, it was on the news somewhere that at least two of the firings occurred due to the attorneys targeting Democrats. What, then, would that do to the argument? Can you honestly tell me that the Democrats are conducting this witch hunt out of sincere concern for the country...or would you say that the motive was not important but rather the results of the investigation?....but, oh no, you would then be saying that the ends justify the means, wouldn't you? Noah, since you want to key in on the Attorney General, I refer you to my previous points concerning Janet Reno. Please spend as much of your time on her as you did on Gonzales. You may be surprised at all you find out. Yes, you may call it simple finger-pointing to get away from the current topic but they actually relate to the same subject......the witch hunt going on. Then ask yourself why the Democrats and liberal press would be content to give her free passes with no publicity while making Gonzales Freddy Kreuger's brother, at the least. I am now firmly convinced that certain key Democrats are all direct descendants of Salem residents. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: Sure, I've read about Janet Reno and I absolutely agree that Janet Reno made many decisions that were blatantly politically-motivated, especially the firing of all 93 Attorney Generals once she assumed the role of Attorney General in 1993. In fact, I believe she was the single greatest embarassing figure in the Clinton Administration and that she too should have been fired especially after her horrid decision-making in that Branch-Davidian standoff incident in Waco, which because of the tear-gas offensive as many as 80 of the Davidians (22 of which were children) were incapacitated to death. I thought Reno also didn't hire enough independent counsels herself. I hope you can see we're not that far apart in identifying and seeing the Clinton Administration's closet skeletons, my friend, and you are correct that it does tie in with the same issue at hand; the politicization of the Justice Department primarily. Having said that, I continue to question why, whenever something here even merely questions the decisions or motives of this current administration, you seem to compulsively respond by saying, "Yeah, well, Clinton did that..." and use it as an excuse for free passing and/or pardoning any of the Bush Administration's own questionable acts, making Gonzales or Rumsfeld or anyone that has anything to do with the administration like Stanley Zbornak from "The Golden Girls", Spence Olchin from "The King of Queens" or any other archetypal, harmless lovable loser on television. I hope you can see that with any administration there will be those familiar characters right out of any quintessential sitcom; the protagonist, the antagonist, the self-actualized wise man, the quirky neighbor, the fool, the wisecracker, the one always lurking behind the fencepost and the one that got away just to name a few. I don't believe we are that far apart in understanding the injustices the clowns that make up the cast of every administration perform. I just hope you can put aside your instant partisan force-field manuevering and acknowledge that officials under this administration and the current GOP act up too, which frankly I don't see you spending nearly as much of your time on as you would to anything related to the Democrats. I was only ten when the Waco incident happened, and I wasn't politically-conscious them, but I've read about her and absolutely believe she should never have been hired to begin with and it's embarrassing how tenacious Clinton was in keeping her around. We're in total agreement there. Now I hope you can cultivate your ability to live in the present and accept that Gonzales himself has made decisions which are questionable and even unconstitutional in their own regard, particularly trying to redefine Article III of the Geneva Conventions and his involvement shaping the Military Commissions Act. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Say again? The ends, Mike, would be to insure that partisan politics aren't allowed to influence justice. If I was to suggest we should shoot Gonzales that would be an example of inappropriate means that didn't justify the end. It would be an example of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Bringing a searchlight to bear on a poorly handled situation is the right thing to do -- even if it's done for the wrong reasons. The concept of the end being used to justify the means has nothing to do with motive. Adversarial systems, such as we have in the court rooms and in Washington, are specifically designed to eliminate motive as an issue. Prosecuting attorneys don't have to hate the defendant (though they might), don't have to despise the crime (though they might), and don't have to have wings sprouting from there backside (though they ... nah). We don't care why they do their jobs. We just care that they do them. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Bringing a searchlight to bear on a poorly handled situation is the right thing to do -- even if it's done for the wrong reasons. Ah, Ron, that is a major contradiction of yours. I don't really care to but, if you would like, I'll find and bring up the thread where you said the exact opposite. It was in reference to a friend telling you a lie in the spirit of friendship to ultimately help you and your response was that you would never consider that person trustworthy again, regardless. Then you felt that lying to you or deceiving you was the ultimate issue and not the objective the deception was geared to produce. Apparently you don't feel that way any longer. Interesting, also, how you refer to a "poorly handled" situation. That's very generous of you....wonder why. I doubt they consider it poorly handled.....it's handled just the way they want - loudly, publicly, media-backed, and antagonistic. Noah, I certainly WILL bring up similarities from the past when the cast of characters are basically the same. Maybe I have a problem with the "Do what I say and not what I do" motherly demands My point is not that Gonzales has done nothing wrong. My point is that the Democrats and liberal media are going bonkers over it when they have a record of doing absolutely nothing when a member of their party was on the firing line. There are no 'let bygones be bygones" here. They are posturing about doing "what's good for the country" when they themselves have a record for ignoring the very things they are complaining about. It is, as I said, nothing more than a witch hunt that they conduct as loudly as possible with complete disregard over what harm it can do to the image of the country or anything else. They are, as I have said many times, despicable. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Mike, I don't see the contradiction there. Both comments have the same goal in mind -- to find the truth or shed light or whatever. Not that Ron hasn't contradicted himself over the years, I'm sure he has, I know you have, I know I have, but I'm not sure it's that important. We all have the 'right' to change our minds. Janet Reno? The investigation, I guess, is about alleged partisanship by partisans investigated by partisans and the defense is the accusation of partisanship? I throw up my hands and say so what. "Hey, you do it too." Doesn't that argument just get boring after a while. If you were really concerned about all this stuff, wouldn't you have at least commented on the disproportionate number of Dems being investigated by the justice department? Of course not. Nor would you expect me to jump on the bandwagon when it comes to dems committing crimes (go to jail, of course, but no cheerleading on this end.) Why? Because we are partisan. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Both comments have the same goal in mind -- to find the truth or shed light or whatever Sorry, Brad, I must have explained it badly for you to get that impression. Ron has stated in the past that the results of finding the truth is valid ONLY when it is done correctly and, if not, the results are secondary or, at best, tainted. Geez, he's gonna deny this now and I'm going to have to go archive digging but I will, if necessary. I can say holding a gun to a terrorist's head and threatening to blow it off (as a bluff) would be "poorly done" but if it got information which averted an attack on an American soldier camp, would this be condoned? Ron has claimed no.....and he is not alone. That was the actual scenario of the army soldier in Iraq who was relieved of duty and sent back to face charges. The terrorist had not been harmed but I guess he had been "scared" and lied to. Go figure...(the attack on the camp was averted, if that matters) "Hey, you do it too." Doesn't that argument just get boring after a while. Afraid you missed my point, Brad. I will concede that, no, it doesn't get old. The Democrat congress is remindful of the boy convicted for killing his parents who tells the judge to go easy on him because he's an orphan. That is not the case here, however. It's not "Hey, you do it, too". It's "Hey, you DON'T do it when it's one of yours". If your brother picked a flower from the garden and gave it to your mother, who gave him a kiss and the next day you did the same and your mother slapped you for messing up the garden, you would have the right to say "What's going on here???" When the Democrat Attorney General, arguably the worst in history, was given free passes by the Democrat party and the press for her many questionable activities and yet these same people and organizations go after the Republican Attorney General with such vigor and publicity, armed with glaring headlines and brass bands, one has the right to ask "What's going on here?", too. The question, of course, is unnecessary. We know what's going on.....another chapter in the "Get Bush and the Administration" handbook. There is no "..doing for the good of the country' noble cause here. The vigilantes are at it again....plain and simple. Are Gonzales and Bush guilty of the accusations? Actually, I have no idea. I DO know that the President had the right to do it due to executive privilege without breaking the law. I haven't read the part of the constitution that gives him that right but, unless it is concluded with a ".....except in the case of" or some such conditional phrase, it is not a criminal activity. The Democrats, knowing this, have now resorted to the "...but is it moral?" defense. I don't recall them asking if it was moral for Clinton to misappropriate 900 FBI files to set up a Republican hit list. It's not a "you do it, too" issue, Brad. It's a "you only do it when it benefits you" issue. All of the headlines...all of the hype, the news coverage, the interviews, the subpoenas, the calls for investigations......all for a non-criminal activity. When's the last time you saw that (with the exception of the Bush surveillance investigation fiasco a few months ago)? THAT is what gets boring, Brad.... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: After re-reading Jack's commentary in WND, the BBC story, and then re-reading you -- I'm beginning to see why you're reacting this way -- and why he wrote his commentary the way he did -- which is a pass for you, but, not for him. From my perspective -- I read Jack's column and the BBC article with the knowledge that the Nuclear Facility at Tuwaitha was old news. It's hardly a "find" at all. It was bombed by the Israelis in 1981 and bombed again by us in 1991 and was kept under lock and key by the IAEA. U.S. Marines found the facility in 2003 after the invasion and , in ignorance, broke the IAEA seals -- which made the site susceptible to looting -- which is what most of the stories that I've referenced are referring to. This was obviously embarrassing to the Administration -- so making a press release about taking the material out of the research facility was necessary to quell the kerfuffle in the media about the bungled handling of nuclear materials. So, it was actually the removal of the material that was used to try to downplay a botched military operation Denise -- not the other way around. The BBC column, because of it's title, "US reveals Iraq nuclear operation" gives the impression that this was a nuclear site that was previously unknown. This is rather revealing about Jack because he chose this very poorly written story instead of a source such as Fox that correctly reported that the 'secret' here wasn't the facility or the material -- but the secret operation removing the material. Jack further continues to mislead by merely referring to 'enriched uranium' instead of 'low-enriched uranium' which can't be used to make a nuclear device but is, instead, only applicable for nuclear fuel. The bottom line here is that the IAEA had this site and this material under control and that we had Saddam in a 'box'. He wasn't going to do anything with this stuff. However -- if he had, indeed, been able to procure new yellowcake shipments from Niger and had found a way to build a centrifuge capable of making highly enriched uranium -- that would have indicated that he was on the verge of nuclear weapons -- which is why the yellowcake story and aluminum tube story were important to the Bush Whitehouse. quote: If your reaction to all evidence Denise is going to be 'did-not', then I'm not sure what the profit in this exercise is for anyone. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Again, Mike, you're talking about doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. And, yea, I have a problem with that. I have much less of a problem with someone doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. quote: Absolutely. When a suspected meth dealer turns in his bud for grand theft auto, there's certainly going to be cause to look at both motive and situation with a skeptical eye. At the end of the day, though, you're going to lock away the guy with a car that doesn't belong to him. Even if his accuser is less than squeaky clean. Let's go after the meth dealer. Right after we get John Q. Public's Chevy back to him. quote: I hope you're right, Mike. There is nothing more dangerous than good men so convinced they are in the right that they'll lie, cheat, and victimize anyone who disagrees with them. There is nothing more dangerous than good men willing to do the wrong things even if in the name of the right reasons. Save me, please, from good men with noble causes and delusions of godhood. We've already had more than enough of that. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
quote: That is, of course, exactly what the democrat loud mouths are doing except they know they are wrong and are doing it for the wrong reasons. They know but they just don't give a damn. That's the dispicable part of this whole sordid afair. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
So, you don't think there's anything dangerous with politicizing our justice system, Pete? You think people who want to prevent that are wrong to try? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: My curiosity is now peaked at how these people become pundits with absolutley no understanding of our government. Here's the scoop -- Reagan did it, Clinton did it, GW did it -- fire all 93 U.S. Attorneys that is -- and replace them with his own team. That's what happens when new Presidents come into power -- particularly if they have taken the seat from the opposing party. What is unusual is firing Attorneys in the mid-terms -- and in particular -- with the Patriot act -- Senate confirmation was removed from the process of hiring new U.S. Attorneys for the purpose of rebuilding a decimated government in the event of a catastrophic terrorist attack. Selective firing of U.S. Attorneys is certainly legal, sometimes done -- but these were fired for supposed 'performance' issues -- whereas most of these fired US Atts were actually among the highest in conviction rates. The appointment of the Prosecutors is political -- but after they are in office a 'hands-off' approach is expected in order to facilitate an impartial justice system. This is why the 'Saturday Night Massacre' during Watergate was a big issue and why the Independent Counsel position was created by Congress -- but allowed to lapse after Ken Starr. Further -- Gonzales has apparently lied to-- I mean misled -- the Senate. If this is merely a partisan assault -- why are Senators Specter, Hagel, and Graham calling for Gonzales to resign? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Through all the partisanship, it is often forgotten that there is another problem here. This administration claims an unprecedented amount of and seeks to increase executive power over the other two branches. Now, if you agree with the expansion, well, I suppose it makes sense to blame everything on dems and ignore all the complaints coming from the paleo-conservative and libertarian crowd. If you don't, well we have seen and I suspect will see more unlikely partnerships in the future. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
quote: Wrong. I think it is terribly dangerous. I also can see that is exactly what those outspoken democrats are trying to do. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
and what is the game of the outspoken Republicans? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Pete, outspoken Democrats don't get to appoint U.S. Attorneys. Or fire them for political retribution. The only influence on the justice system they have . . . is to be outspoken. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
outspoken Democrats don't get to appoint U.S. Attorneys. They do when they have a Democrat in the oval office and, should their appointed Attorney General be a nogoodnik, suddenly they are not outspoken but come down with laryngitus, or would that be lockjaw? When a suspected meth dealer turns in his bud for grand theft auto, there's certainly going to be cause to look at both motive and situation with a skeptical eye. Interesting comparison, Ron....drug dealing and grand theft auto used. Glad you used restraint in your examples |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks for taking the time in trying to explain this all to me, L.R. I appreciate it. I'm still not sure I understand it all, but thanks for trying anyway. I think I did read though that even the low-enriched uranium could be used in dirty bombs if terrorists got their hands on it, couldn't it? And didn't this all come from France to Iraq originally, and didn't Wilson have French clients whose interests in Iraq would have been disrupted by war, and didn't he try to have the French cut in on the reconstruction contracts? I think I also read that the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that the "16 words" in Bush's speech were in fact true, and that according to oral testimony by Wilson before the Committee, it was concluded by the Committee that Wilson was sent to Niger at the behest of his wife and the CIA and not the Vice President's office as he had contended. I also think I heard on Fox News that the email that she sent to her superiors inquiring about sending him to Niger was sent by her on February 12th, but that the Vice President's meeting in which he inquired about investigating the claim via the CIA didn't even happen until February 13th. So I would still like to see Valerie and Joe questioned extensively and under oath, as well as others at the CIA. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Then the questions still remains. Why were they notoriously not outsoken when Reno did the same dirty deed, times ten? Oh wait, she was part of a democrat administration. It was all right in that case. Besides, that was then and this is now. Vacuous argument. This is nothing but political hanky-panky, to clean up the language a bit. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Forget it, Pete. Neither you or I will get the acknowledgements that we consider obvious and logical. After the transparency of the Dubai port purchase outrage, complete with bold headlines that meant nothing, after the call for rolling heads concerning the surveillance programs which fizzled into nothing, after the calls for the firings of a large part of the administrative staff, to incluse the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Attorney General, Speaker of the House, and the impeachment of Bush....after years of the constant Democrat attacks, aided by the media with complete silence about the strength of the economy or even one single good thing that has happened in either the United States or Iraq.....after all of these things and more which you would think that any level-headed or reasonable mind would be able to recognized as personal and biased attacks, orchestrated by the Democrat congressional elite, still you are not going to get one person to concede that which is obvious to millions of people.....that it is all personal, biased rhetoric aimed at bringing down the rooster Bush and having nothing to do with the good of the country. We may as well leave it at that..... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Uh, they don't currently have a Democrat in the oval office, Mike. quote: The interesting part, Mike, is that you want to deify one and demonize the other. Yet, from where I sit, it's increasingly hard to tell the difference. Both, I think, still require very careful review. quote: It's questionable whether Reno did the same dirty deed, Pete. Remember, the problem isn't with firing Attorneys but rather with exacting political vengeance on them. Still, even if you're convinced Reno did something horribly wrong, it's not necessarily the role of the Democrats to blow the whistle. Not in an adversarial system. That role falls to the opposing party. So, if wrongs were indeed committed, the question you should be asking is why the Republicans didn't do their jobs. I honestly don't see the big deal, guys. We're talking about scrutinizing the actions of politicians to insure they are within acceptable parameters. When did that become a conspiracy? If they don't pass scrutiny, we'll have strengthened our country by making sure it doesn't continue. If they do pass scrutiny, if no fault is found, then no harm is done. I repeat: No harm is done. That is, unless you really think everyone in this country except you is stupid? |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Thought I was through in here, but I just have to add one thing so the debate which has shifted to the so-called "political firings" of 8 U.S. attorneys, is based on a little fact. According to the following article from "Time" those fired were Republican, not Democratic. So if it isn't about party affiliation and it isn't about job performance as initially claimed, then there is definitely something worth investigating here and that is probably all I will say on the matter. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1597085,00.html |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: Absolutely agree. Look, there are many Attorney Generals in recent history who have been caught up in notorious or at least questionable situations. Under the Reagan Era, Edwin Meese was highly involved in the Iran-Contra Affair and his legacy remains tainted by that episode. Under the Nixon Era, John Newton Mitchell became the first US Attorney General ever to be convicted and imprisoned due to his role in the Watergate break-in and cover-up. And under the Clinton Era, as has already been noted, Janet Reno and her poor leadership in the Waco incident. Certainly I think we'd all like to keep those like Meese and Mitchell and Reno from again pervading these institutions and making a mockery of the judicial and executive power structures for political or superficial means. And I defend my belief that Gonzales has abused his power as well in heart, but I certainly believe he should be offered fair scrutiny organized in a bi-partisan manner. * quote: I haven't forgotten, Brad, and that is exactly what's humming flourescently in my head when I started several particular posts in the past here around warrantless wiretapping, the John Yoo memo and the mass readings of e-mail and other personal information in particular. I certainly agree some concerns of civil liberty erosions are exaggerated and propagandized just like threats of terrorism are sometimes, and as I've stated constantly before I believe neither of the two parties that make up our duopoly are divorced of those kind of propagandized scare tactics. However, I believe when most Americans do believe we are heading in the wrong direction, and do believe the scope of executive power is being exceeded and taken too far, Americans have the right to be upset and question our liberties are under attack. June 15, 2006 Department of Defense Letter (In Response To January 5, 2006 FOIA Request) * One such example where I believe there is right to be concern is, as previously noted, revealed in this transcript of a letter from the Department of Defense as requested under a Freedom of Information Act response, and according to this transcript, the DOD appeared to admit to some degree that they have monitored a much wider spectrum of student organizations than was earlier acknowledged. Their admissions included conducting surveillance of groups protesting the military's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy for gays and lesbians in the armed forces, as well as students protesting the war at State University of New York at Albany, William Paterson University in New Jersey, Southern Connecticut State University and the University of California at Berkeley (the birthplace of the Free Speech Movement), despite NONE of the reports in the documentation indicating any terrorist activity by the students who were monitored. What you just brought up also hummed in my head (and, as you said, the heads of many traditional conservatives and libertarians as well) the Military Commissions Act of last year, which basically argues that: "The president has the authority for the United States to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions." To put it another way, the central question of what CIA interrogators may do to suspects who might be innocent would be determined not by law but by the president himself, and that the president would have to release publicly those executive orders when he issues them. And though the final deal explicitly states the definition of torture as "severe physical or mental pain and suffering", it also seems to leave open the door ajar on alternative interrogation techniques such as waterboarding. So the upshoot of that deal is that torture is not prohibited, and really leaves the president with a wide scope of executive power. Jonathan Turley, a constitutional law professor from George Washington University I thought gave a great analogy, where this is like "telling a teenager that I don‘t want you driving at 90 miles an hour" and then he thinks "Gosh, I can live with that, I‘d go to 89!" This also gives an earlier torture memo some legitimacy, where Alberto Gonzales said in that memo that that they could do anything short of organ failure or death. And when you bundle it all up with that John Yoo memo following the September 11th attacks that basically suggested that the president could do anything he wants as long as he's fighting terrorism, it leaves our international law and treaties vulnerable to grave violations and moral cavities. Moreover, in this case, the Geneva Convention cannot be cited in a federal case or trial. In terms of democracy, it basically tells everyone, "You can look, but you can't touch and you can't play!" You also can't cite international sources in foreign cases under this. It's exactly bills like that that reiterate why we have become so unpopular in the international community recently, and why again I speak out when I learn of such things. The bottom line is, I don't care who is in office, or what party the person in office is affliated with, or what shoe size that person has, or what that person's Junior League batting average was. I feel in heart when any such individual is attempting any such power grab or expansion of executive powet that undermines our checks and balances and democratic cornerstones, I have an obligatory conscience to speak out, and while it may seem I'm particularly tough toward this current administration in that I didn't start participating in discussions here until shortly after the war in Iraq began in March of 2003, I assure others here I would do just likewise should a Democratic president be elected in 2008 or any year in the near future when he/she attempts just that same sort of thing, or any form of immense corruption as I have already denounced of William Jefferson and his frozen chump change, or Jack Murtha and his Abscam days, or Alsea Hastings and his history of corruption, etc. Cox Washington: July 30, 2006 The American Chronicle: March 21, 2007 Others can scoff at these concerns as "constant Democrat attacks" or "personal, biased rhetoric" as they wish, but I cannot betray my conscience when it feels that something is wrong with the picture, and I know I'm certainly not alone when I hear from conservatives and libertarians like Bruce Fein, John Dean, William Buckley, David Keene, Richard Viguerie and Ron Paul among many others have spoken out arguably even more audibly than I have on the exact same sort of thing; denouncing any sort of presidential power grab. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I want to highlight the "Freedom Pledge" here, organized by the conservative group American Freedom Agenda, which I hinted on in my previous response: * The American Chronicle: March 21, 2007 Freedom Pledge I, (candidate), hereby pledge that if elected President of the United States I will undertake the following to restore the Constitution's checks and balances, to honor fundamental protections against injustice, and to eschew usurpations oflegislative or judicial power.These are keystones of national security and individual freedom: 1. No Military Commissions Except on the Battlefield. I will not employ military commissions to prosecute offenses against the laws of war except in places where active hostilities are ongoing and a battlefield tribunal is necessary to obtain fresh testimony and to prevent local anarchy or chaos. 2. No Evidence Extracted by Torture or Coercion. I will not permit the use of evidence obtained by torture or coercion to be admissible in a military commission or other tribunal. 3. No Detaining Citizens as Unlawful Enemy Combatants. I will not detain any American citizen as an unlawful enemy combatant. Citizens accused of terrorism-linked crimes will be prosecuted in federal civilian courts. 4. RestoringHabeas Corpus for Suspected Alien Enemy Combatants. I will detain non-citizens as enemy combatants only if they have actively participated in actual hostilities against the United States. I will urge Congress to amend the Military Commissions Act of 2006 to permit any individual detained under the custody or control of the United States government to file a petition for a writ of habeas corpus in federal courts. 5. Prohibiting Warrantless Spying bythe National Security Agency in Violation of Law. I will prohibit the National Security Agency from gathering foreign intelligence except in conformity with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, and end the NSA's domestic surveillance program that targets American citizens on American soil for warrantless electronic surveillance. 6. Renouncing Presidential Signing Statements. I will not issue presidential signing statements declaring the intent to disregard provisions of a bill that I have signed into law because I believe they are unconstitutional. Instead, I will veto any bill that I believe contains an unconstitutional provision and ask Congress to delete it and re-pass the legislation. 7. Ending Secret Government by Invoking State Secrets Privilege. I will not invoke the state secrets privilege to deny remedies to individuals victimized by constitutional violations perpetrated by government officials or agents. I will not assert executive privilege to deny Congress information relevant to oversight or legislation unless supreme state secrets are involved. In that case, I will submit the privilege claim to a legislative-executive committee for definitive resolution. 8. Stopping Extraordinary Renditions. I will order the cessation of extraordinary renditions except where the purpose of the capture and transportation of the suspected criminal is for prosecution according to internationally accepted standards of fairness and due process. 9. Stopping Threats to Prosecuting Journalists under the Espionage Act. I will urge Congress to amend the Espionage Act to create a journalistic exception for reporting on matters relating to the national defense. As a matter of prosecutorial discretion, until such an amendment is enacted I will not prosecute journalists for alleged Espionage Act violations except for the intentional disclosure of information that threatens immediate physical harm to American troops or citizens at home or abroad. 10. Ending the Listing of Individuals or Organizations as Terrorists Based on Secret Evidence. I will not list individuals or organizations as foreign terrorists or foreign terrorist organizations for purposes of United States or international law based on secret evidence. I will issue a public report annually elaborating on how the actions enumerated in paragraphs 1-10 have strengthened the ability of the United States to defeat international terrorism, secure fundamental freedoms, and preserve the nation's democratic dispensation. ___________________________ (Candidate) Date: ______________________ Presented by Bill haymin, 2007 * * So, indeed, it's traditional conservatives and libertarians that are equally as upset and angry with this executive power grab as liberals and progressives are, perhaps even moreso and rightfully so. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I honestly don't see the big deal, guys. We're talking about scrutinizing the actions of politicians to insure they are within acceptable parameters. When did that become a conspiracy? If they don't pass scrutiny, we'll have strengthened our country by making sure it doesn't continue. If they do pass scrutiny, if no fault is found, then no harm is done. I repeat: No harm is done. That is, unless you really think everyone in this country except you is stupid? That's a very interesting statement, Ron, and I find it quite short-sighted, with all due respect. Hey, guys! I have an idea. Let's all get together and thrown mud at Ron Carnell's house! As long as no windows get broken there's no damage done and, besides, the next rain will wash it off so what the heck?? Your statement is right out of the Democrat playbook. The Democratic actions over the past couple of years have two facets. First, the charges themselves. They went bonkers over the Dubai port deal. They screamed about the dangers of foreign ownership of our ports at a time when they knew that over 60% of our ports are foreign-owned. Did that strengthen our country? Did that endear Dubai, a strong ally and supporter of ours in the Middle East, to us? Tell me again about the no harm done point you raise. What about the Bush surveillance actions they condemned and screamed for investigations over at the same time they were saying that they were NOT saying that the actions were necessarily wrong? How exactly did that strengthen our country again? What about Bush's military service record they raised such a big stink about....this coming from a party who had just had a President for eight years who had left the country and made anti-American speeches in Europe while avoiding military service altogether. You claim that if they don't pass scrutiny, our country is strengthened. What if they DO pass scrutiny? What happens then? What happens is that the Democrats drop it and hope people will forget about it quickly without even the courtesy of an acknowledgement. The second facet is their procedures. This is much more despicable. What would you do, Ron, if you felt a fellow worker was procedurally out of line? Would you ask for an explanation or would you run through the office screaming "Tom is out of line! He's doing things the wrong way!!!" Would you then stand on your desk and let everyone know within earshot that Tom is a jerk, disrespectful of the rules of the office and completely oblivious to how the work should be done? Would you post signs on the office bulletin boards demanding Tom be fired for such incredible behavior? If you would, then you would be following the same procedures the Democrats employ. They don't just see something they consider may be wrong and try to investigate it with the parties concerned. They make it glaring headlines the next morning. They line up to make speeches on prime time news condemning it before even knowing whether or not it is worthy of condemnation. They make no attempt to reconcile it first. They want the publicity, the hoopla. They want to publicly shout out their disdain. They want to scream CRIMINAL!, even when no criminal action has been committed. No harm done, Ron? Well, I suppose not if you don't consider trying to tear the country apart as harmful or if you don't feel that the world opinion of the United States going downhill while watching these constant attacks on the administration is harmful. I guess it's just boys will be boys, right? I understand what you're saying, Ron, and I don't disagree under normal conditions. In a perfect, or even reasonable, atmosphere, you make sense. It's good to be vigilant and question and run checks and balances. If wrongdoing is found, it can be corrected and prevented in the future. If it is not found, the accuser or questioner can simply say, "Thank you . It was my duty to question and I appreciate your response and explanation." We do not have that here. We have members of a political party on constant feeding frenzies, using whatever ammo they can find in the loudest possible way to meet their objective, which is NOT the good of the country or it's reputation, but to get Bush and the administration. When a point is satisfied, there is no "thank you", there is simply a walk away and a search for the next point they can bring up to continue the assault.....and, if you can't see that, I understand that laser surgery works great on short-sighted vision. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Noah, you are going to claim that is the thinking of all, or even a majority, of traditional conservatives just because one organization came up with it? Please.... Iliana, yes, there should indeed be an investigation....over why there is an investigation! |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Still, even if you're convinced Reno did something horribly wrong, it's not necessarily the role of the Democrats to blow the whistle. Not in an adversarial system. That role falls to the opposing party. So, if wrongs were indeed committed, the question you should be asking is why the Republicans didn't do their jobs. I see. So basically you are saying that members of Congress are not required to speak out against any wrongdoing if committed by a member of their own party. What does that say about "doing what's good for the country? Do you teach that brand of philosophy in your classes, Ron? Would you raise your children to grow up with those guidelines? They say golf is the sport with the most integrity because the players call fouls on themselves. I'll assume then that politicians do not play the sport |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I think I was misunderstood. When I made the comment, I wasn't saying people shouldn't disagree with me. I am saying, from living in a very liberal school, It is sad when I here someone say they want Bush to be impeached. They want the US to fall (Like another country take us over). Unfortunately I have come across this way to often. I do not mean if Bush did something wrong don't impeach him. If he really did something so terribly wrong impeach him, but no one should want the embarrassment of impeaching our president. This impeach bush thing has been going on since 9 months after 9/11. You can say what you want, but I am sick of hearing about this. I am really sick being around the majority of the factious, liberal socialists at my school. I swear its almost like anarchy. -Juju |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: I never suggested that. Had I made the sweeping generalization fallacy in claiming that ALL traditional conservatives shared the same uniform view of the American Freedom Agenda, I would have placed the word "all", "most" or "majority" in front of the words "traditional conservatives and libertarians". The point is, while you've went off spinning all the issues listed in that conservative group's pledge solely as "personal and biased attacks, orchestrated by the Democrat congressional elite." that's "aimed at bringing down the rooster Bush and having nothing to do with the good of the country.", the fact is there are a considerable number of traditional conservatives and libertarians who are just as outraged over all of this as these usual suspects you frequently point to are, which include Richard Viguerie, considered the "founding father" of all modern conservative strategy, David Keene, the chairman of the American Conservative Union, and Bruce Fein, former Associate Deputy Attorney General during the Reagan Era, certainly among plenty of others beyond this group. You can choose to dismiss what Ron said yesterday as "right out of the Democrat playbook", but with all due respect, I feel so much of what you've been saying are regurgitated GOP apologist talking points taken from their playbook. Even when the GOP held the trifecta for six years and the Democrats were in the minority in every fashion, apparently it wasn't enough for you to continue focusing almost 100% of your energy upon them, while your cognitive dissidence greeted everything the other party did with a halo effect. I say this with good intentions, as I believe you to be a good friend and a warm and compassionate person as I have seen from all your wonderful poems and anecdotes that have truly inspired me, and certainly we all hold our own beliefs and ideologies that thus inspire biases in each of us. But I do also believe you have a tendency to act like a GOP apologist, where whenever anyone even merely questions the decision-making of the president or the GOP leadership, you instantly conjure up a defensive reaction and retreat into your 1992-1999 carapace. I certainly admire that you stand by your beliefs and don't leave the past behind, but I also question how you hold certain grudges, make sweeping generalizations out of them and allow yourself to see this duopoly landscape entirely in black and white, rather than in lighter and darker shades of grays. As you know all too well, I'm not satisfied with this administration, and also am one dissatisfied with this administration who also strongly opposes any organized impeachment effort on Bush and if I were alive during the Lyndon B. Johnson, I'd be speaking up just as loudly over his terrible leadership bogging us down in the Vietnam War, or under Franklin D. Roosevelt when he insisted that Executive Order 9066 was necessary to save American lives and ultimately imprisoned 110,000 Americans under his watch, or under Woodrow Wilson when he insisted that the Espionage Act was necessary to save American lives, which ultimately prosecuted 2,000 Americans as "Hyphenated Americans", who were charged simply for advocating for peace as war went on, all of whom were Democratic presidents. Although I lean Democratic overall on most issues (I am more alligned with the Republicans on immigration, prayer in public schools and the absolute right of gun ownership), I am an Independent because I have seen how both parties have made a mockery of our democratic institutions over these many years; turning the House of Representatives, first founded to represent the public in contrast to the Senate representing elite interests, into a two-year hybrid of the Senate, as well as kowtowing with special interest groups from MoveOn and organized labor on the left to Focus on the Family and big oil on the right, having individuals represent just those interests on both sides, from Howard Dean and Al Sharpton on the left to name a couple to James Inhofe and Pat Robertson on the right to name a couple, and, finally, getting swamped in political correctness. I think it's obscene from both ends, and though it may seem I'm particularly outspoken towards this administration, it is because I believe it is just that soiled with cronyism and ideals that are barely conservative at all, and riddled by neoconservatism. I believe it's just that bad. Even so, especially if Hillary Clinton is elected in 2008, having known her history of unethical tricks and deeds, you're going to see me openly criticize this Democratic president quite often I'm sure, or any president who engages in these same sorts of frauds, intimidations, cronyism or executive power grabs in particular. I believe you absolutely mean well, my friend, but only wish you could stop scurrying to that carapace of cognitive dissidence and consider these sorts of questions and issues beyond party lines. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: You're absolutely right. It IS sad when you hear anyone saying they want to impeach the president more than any other thing. You won't believe how much I have to put up with others at KBOO Community Radio saying "Impeach this!" and "Impeach that!". It's quite irritating. Whenever I produce the KBOO Evening News on Wednesdays, whenever someone puts together a story on fourteen cities in Vermont passing legislation calling for Bush's impeachment, yada yada yada, I never run it, and sometimes even compose a reader of my own citing communities that have declined legislation calling for his impeachment. Most Americans polled REJECT this sort of organized impeachment, and some others at the station who go on and off about it don't speak for me. I myself am opposed to any organized impeachment effort, even as much as I am embarrassed by this administration, and prefer general oversight and deep investigations into the Iraq war intelligence and motivations, the warrantless wiretapping program, the John Yoo memo, etc., and I'll explain why. The nation's top priorities would be echeloned should the Democrats, or anyone in that manner dedicate their reserve of energy into such an offensive manuever. I understand Dennis Kucinich, Cynthia McKinney (thank God she's out of Congress now) and Cindy Sheehan are just three personalities who are adamant for Bush's impeachment, and I find that most disheartening. There are many priorities that the American public deem decisively more important and essential than the consideration for grounds of impeachment; getting the government to negotiate directly with pharmaceutical companies to lower drug prices for seniors, increasing America's minimum wage from $5.15 an hour, funding renewable energy, investigating government contracts in Iraq, enacting the recommendations set by the 9/11 commission, dealing with rising tuition costs for college students, crafting policies that would allow more uninsured people to get access to health insurance, allowing prayer in public schools again, penalizing companies that hire illegal immigrants; those sorts of items which serve the wide interest of the American public beyond party lines. I still hold that disheartening memory during President Clinton's final two years (and I'm certainly no fan of Clinton either, particularly regarding Bosnia, the Telecommunications Act and Welfare Reform, Janet Reno, etc.) when the Republicans rallied to impeach him, preferring to go after him above all else. I believe it was wrong then and I believe it is wrong now. Cindy Sheehan certainly doesn't speak for me when she says: "We want to see the issue of impeachment" nor do I weld with the "boat-load of Americans who want impeachment on the table" coterie, as I believe there are ways in which we can hold this administration accountable in the truest, most serious sense of the word without resorting to further polarization of this nation. The bottom line is, we have all endured heartache and loss in these recent years, and I myself continue to be emotionally affected deeply by the loss of my dearest cousin, Jeremy Shank, a corporal who died September 6th in Balad, Iraq on a dismounted security patrol when he encountered enemy forces using small arms. I've thought about her family every day since hearing the tragic news, and it especially breaks my heart imagining how his mother Debbie copes emotionally with the loss, especially when she has continued to go through heavily emotional highs and lows since her ugly car accident eight years ago which has psychologically affected her ever since. ;crying: Jeremy, himself, personally expressed his frustrations with the war to his friends and family, and his father Jim too has publicly continued to express his condemnations of the war in Iraq since his loss. He is just as upset as Sheehan is here, but he also has said he doesn't believe impeachment is the right direction to go, believing instead in more oversight, adding that Bush should not be spared from accountability in any form. The Spanish writer Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra once said, "The worst reconciliation is better than the best divorce." I believe much of the American public does demand oversight and accountability, and this must happen, but most of all I believe the American public desires reconciliation; to mend all that has been divided over the past six years through both our vital checks and balances system and bi-partisanship, and doesn't want this country to continue to divorce itself. Impeachment is one of the worst ways in going about restoring accountability to this nation, I believe, and will only stall many other top priorities in Congress that can ultimately benefit our nation. Any of the rest of you have every right to debate the issue with me here, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I never suggested that. True, Noah. What you said was "So, indeed, it's traditional conservatives and libertarians that are equally as upset and angry..." You didn't say a few...you didn't say a lot....a very safe way to go. Then you add to it in your next reply with "the fact is there are a considerable number of traditional conservatives". Hwow many zeroes are there in "considerable", sir? Even when the GOP held the trifecta for six years and the Democrats were in the minority in every fashion, apparently it wasn't enough for you to continue focusing almost 100% of your energy upon them, while your cognitive dissidence greeted everything the other party did with a halo effect. Noah, you can believe it or not but I focus my energy where I feel it should be directed and I do not fit Ron's example of someone who will not turn on a member of my party if I see wrongdoing. The Democrats being in the minority simply made them MORE vicious and more determined to bring Bush down. Now that they are in the majority, they are after revenge. Majority/minority, it doesn't matter. Their goal is the same...and so are their tactics. whenever anyone even merely questions the decision-making of the president or the GOP leadership, you instantly conjure up a defensive reaction ... That's my point, Noah. They DON'T merely question....they attack with full vigor, their press leading the charge. I would applaud a mere question if they ever had the class to ask....they don't. and allow yourself to see this duopoly landscape entirely in black and white, rather than in lighter and darker shades of grays. LOL! You have me there, Noah. It's residue from my Ayn Rand days, who proclaimed that "Black is black and white is white but gray is evil". Neither she or I would make good politicians only wish you could stop scurrying to that carapace of cognitive dissidence That does it! If you are going to switch from English to another language, I'm not talkin' any more! Noah, you have been a friend and you will always be a friend. I admire your passion for what you believe in even when I don't agree with it. To me and I firmly believe that to many, the Democrats have left a very visible trail of continual attacks on Bush and the administration for years.....attacks that they abandoned as soon as they saw the American people weren't fooled or swayed by them. The attacks were not meant to be for the "good of the country".....they were meant to get Bush out of there. They have not even been good at disguising it. They want to "clean the swamp"....what a shallow and ridiculous way for a senior congressperson to speak. Be well.... |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: I stand by my clarification in that a considerable number of traditional conservatives and libertarians are upset on these fronts. CATO: January 1, 2007 In fact, I believe that it was independents and libertarians especially who swung the 2006 mid-term elections toward the Democrats' favor. The latter has traditionally been a reliable, staunch Republican-leaning bloc of voters, but as this analytical article shows, compared to the previous mid-term election in 2002, libertarians have made a 24 percentage point swing to the Democratic Party within the past four years, voting for Republican congressional candidates by a margin of 47 percentage points in 2002, with the gap closed in half in 2006 by a 23-point margin. In addition, one Zogby poll result illustrated in that analysis shows nearly half of libertarians identifying themselves under a conservative ideology. Unless for some reason all the libertarians who identified themselves as liberal or moderate happened to vote Democratic this past election and all who identified themselves as conservative voted Republican this past election, surely there's great reason to believe there was disenchantment among a chunk of the conservative bloc that's indeed "considerable" as to swing key Senate and House races. So yes, I absolutely stand by my belief that a considerable number of both traditional conservatives and libertarians are upset. If they weren't, George Allen, Conrad Burns and Jim Talent would still be in the Senate, and I even dare say the GOP would also still have the majority in the House of Representatives. And I can indeed see why there's a growing disenchantment with these voting blocs towards the GOP; they, along with moderate and paleoconservative Republicans, who are anything but GOP apologists that behave by their establishment's playbook, have become unfortunate victims over these past two decades and very much so over these past four years in that they are being squeezed further out of the party and replaced by those representing special interest groups like Focus On The Family and the American Family Association, those attached to corporate lobbyists from big oil and government contractors, and neoconservative hawks. I've stated repeatedly that I believe there are many fair and independently-minded conservatives out there, and I have some conservative friends who are stationed at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs who I regularly communicate with who disagree with me on certain things but also are gravely upset with how this war is being managed and led and the executive power overreach among other things, including Randy Meador and Weston Wells. Frankly, I'm not sure what it is that has put you in denial that any libertarian or traditional conservative is upset over these exact same constitutional issues, unless you actually believe that George Soros strapped Richard Viguerie, David Keene, Bruce Fein and other such conservative intellectuals and activists into sedon chairs and performed some sort of hypnosis on them or some other conspiracy to believe what is also believed among many liberals, moderates, Democrats and independents. But I for one believe these conservative voices are sincere in their beliefs, and I have great admiration and sympathy for them. It is in my sincerest belief that, just like with the Democratic Party, there doesn't seem to be room for moderates and traditionalists in the GOP like there used to, and they have been in some fashions ostracized from the party. I sympathize with them to a great degree, and until the GOP establishment and its leaders return to their roots, they'll all but certainly remain in the minority for a while. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Novak And still more GOPer dissent: quote: And still they avoid the issue: quote: I don't know. But then again I never thought the GOP was the better manager. |
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Aurelian Member
since 2007-03-20
Posts 109TX, USA |
I think I'm voting Whig. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Frankly, I'm not sure what it is that has put you in denial that any libertarian or traditional conservative is upset over these exact same constitutional issues, You will not be able to find anywhere here where I said any such thing, Noah. I'm questioning your superlatives and diminuitives. You claim a "considerable" number. I simply asked how you came up with that. You also state here that I don't think ANY conservative or libertarian is upset. I'd like to know where you came up with that, too. Somehow you seem to believe that I am standing up for Bush, no matter what. Believe me, that's not the case. I have become more disillusioned with the current administration than you may know, ranging from the situation in Iraq to the immigration issues to other things. I think Bush has become much less than he can be, and should be, in several areas.....and, as Brad pointed out, other conservatives seem to feel the same way. That has nothing to do with anything I have said in this thread. Regardless of Bush, I consider the tactics of the Democrat leadership to be shoddy, deplorable, untruthful and a detriment to the United States. Their actions are despicable, made even more so by their incessant drive to bring down the President of the country in the loudest, most public way they can manage, aided by a liberal press more than willing to support them. They try to instill fear and mistrust in the American people to serve their own purposes. They call for investigations of non-illegal activities. They try to put mistrust in the minds of citizens by innuendos. Foreign ownership of ports? Just think of that, Joe Sixpack! How do you know Bush's surveillance tactics are not listening to YOUR phone calls, Molly Homemaker? I have never felt more disdain for one group of individuals more than i do for the Democrat leadership....for their tactics and for their complete disregard for how their actions affect the reputation and good of the country. My arguments are not FOR Bush....they are against this sub-human group of individuals and their methods. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: LOL. So your only real complaint, Mike, is that they're not polite enough? quote: There are so many things "wrong" with those questions, Mike, and I really don't want to wander off-topic again, but ... No one is ever "required" to speak out against anything. When was the last time you jumped on your cell phone and called the police because you saw someone on the freeway exceeding the speed limit? And I think instead of trying to explain what's wrong with "doing what's good for the country," I'll save some time and direct you to an author who built a whole philosophy around the concept of intelligent self-interest. Her name was Ayn Rand? :-) Back on-topic. I suspect if any member of Congress saw one of their own breaking the law, they would probably step up to the plate (or the tee, perhaps, if you prefer your golfing metaphors?). But that's not what we're talking about, Mike, when we talk about adversarial systems. We're not talking about wrongdoing, but rather the potential for wrongdoing. It's a Democrat's job to turn over Republican rocks and see what's hiding behind them. And, of course, vice versa. Here's the situation as I see it, Mike. We've hired two known thieves to guard our house while we sleep. The only way we can protect ourselves is to make sure each thief has a darn good reason (remember self interest?) to rat out his counterpart at the earliest opportunity. It's an adversarial system. We need it. Why? Because God help us if the thieves ever learn to like each other enough to cooperate. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: Perhaps I wasn't specific enough with my selection of words, but I figured you got the general idea. And I can't imagine how a 24-point swing from one mid-term election to another is NOT considerable in any case. quote: I certainly don't doubt your sincerity here, my friend. I simply question why it is whenever seemingly anything sprouts up that questions a motive of the administration, or puts the Administration in a defensive position, you seem to automatically dismiss it faster than I can snap my fingers as some propagandized, partisan phalanx solely organized by MoveOn and the Democratic leadership. I'm certainly not saying whatsoever many Democrats exploit these situations to satisfy their own political means, I believe there to be Democrats in both the House, Senate and their national committee who do just that, with just some names that come to mind including Russell Feingold, Joe Biden, Harry Reid, Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton among others, who try and twist the rhetoric as though it legitimizes grounds for censure and impeachment among other things. I do absolutely agree that's wrong also and largely why I refuse becoming a registered Democrat in terms of principle. However, I also believe that as much as I'd always like to believe our president and our administration are doing nothing but serving the best interests of our country every minute of every day, that is simply a naive way of thinking, and when we hear of things like warrantless wiretapping and the re-interpretation of the Geneva Conventions among other things and of any government's motives being suspect in regard to it, I believe it is our duty to investigate such matters and seek the truth, and that we can certainly do so while also dodging the artificiality politicians from both sides inject into the situation. Gauging by the patterns of questionable motives and actions that have been commonplace during these last six years, I certainly admit I have an unfavorable view of this administration and I sharply criticize the lack of oversight the GOP-led Congress placed on the administration these past six years as well. But I don't share that bloodthirst for ultimate retaliation like those particular Democrats that make up their leadership you speak of. I just want these matters to be investigated thoroughly and for oversight to be returned so that future administrations don't try and exploit our vital checks and balances system. USA Today: March 26, 2007 Fearmongering and slime politics aside, it is in the general interest of the American public to investigate such matters as this. This new USA Today poll reveals on questions #14-#16 that almost three-fourths of Americans believe Congress should investigate the involvement of White House officials on this matter, with over two-thirds believing the claim of executive privilege should not be invoked and that they should answer all questions being asked, and finally over two-thirds being subpoenas should be offered to White House officials to testify under oath in this particular case. I too hope that neither party tries to unilateralize the investigations, nor inject rhetorical and slimeball questions into it. But I absolutely believe this scandal must be investigated, so that by the end of it we can either rest assured and breathe easily it was much ado about nothing, or that justice was served and we can hope others in future administrations won't try and sidestep around or make a mockery of our democratic cornerstones. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: That about sums it up for me! Thanks Ron! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL. So your only real complaint, Mike, is that they're not polite enough? No, Ron,my real complaint is they are not professional enough. If you wil re-read the example I gave about a co-worker (instead of dismissing it?) you will see what my real complaint is. There are right ways and wrong ways to handle things. Democrats are not interested in the right way...only the loudest way....and their points don't even have to be valid. Ok, fellow Ayn Rand reader , you tell me. What was the valid point over the squawk over the Dubai port deal? I'd like to see some justification there, if you please. That example is indicative of the majority of their rabble-rousing.....microscopic on substance, overwhelming with volume. Keep throwing mud and hope that something sticks. You call that a valid use of our checks and balances? I call it kindergarten recess. It would only be mildly irritating if there were not other things going on....but while we are fighting on multiple fronts? While these hissy fits lower us even further in the eyes of the world? Don Corleone had it right with his advice to Sonny. You keep differences in the family. You work them out but you put on a united front to the world. No one is ever required to speak out against anything... Really now? True, I don't jump on my cell-phone to report speeders but a cop's duty is. One would think that a congressman's duty would be the same. Aren't they the ones we elect to safeguard the Constitution? That;s supposed to be their job....and not only when the wrongdoing they see is committed by the opposing party. Your comparison of average citizens to them is a little off the mark, I would say. C'mon, gentlemen, you know darn well that the Democrats have been deliberately taking cheap potshots at the administration for years. If you don't want to admit it publicly, that's fine, but trying to portray it as a noble quest on their part is not something that many will swallow. It's not that they're impolite, Ron....it's that they have no class or regard for what their tactics do to the country, nor do they care. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
With all due respect, Balladeer, as long as you keep mentioning the Dubai deal, didn't not only many Republican Senators and Congressmen, but even YOU, openly criticize the deal as well? As I recall, it was unanimously agreed that it was unfortunate this became a major, publicized issue to begin with in that it made us appear as though we were bigoted toward Arabs because we rejected their business interests while allowing others historically (though that's of course not the reason we rejected it) but we also unanimously agreed the deal wasn't a good idea because it would put the management and maintenance of OUR ports in the hands of international interests, thus that's why there was unanimous dissent toward that deal. In my memory, there was bi-partisan dissent from the beginning on that deal in Congress. Dennis Hastert and Bill Frist, who were two of the most loyal Bush supporters on record, even publicly questioned the deal. In fact, that may have been the first time the New York Times and Sean Hannity ever agreed on anything! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about Janet Reno.. she was one of the few Clinton Cabinet members that I thought actually perfomed well. She actually caught Sheik Omar Abdel Rahmen, prosectued him, and got a conviction -- and didn't even have to invade a country that had nothing to do with the WTC bombings to do it. Got the Unabomber Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols Eric Rudolph and... most importantly MICROSOFT |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
but we also unanimously agreed the deal wasn't a good idea because it would put the management and maintenance of OUR ports in the hands of international interests Wake up and smell the olive oil, Noah. the majority of the management and maintenance of OUR ports IS in the hands of international interests, which the Democrats knew full well. LR, yeah but she didn't get Wal-Mart so I can't believe you think she did a good job |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: Yes, I understand that, and if you had read the rest of my previous reply closely, you would see I clearly also said "we rejected their business interests while allowing others historically." I do remember the discussions on the Dubai Ports World deal we had in two previous threads; one which you started titled "Guess Who Is NOT Coming To Dinner" and one Lee started titled "Would Anyone Care To Comment?". You were surely consistent in your views in Lee's thread arguing that when previous presidents made similar deals with international companies and contractors and Congress and the press didn't speak up, yet this time around Congress and the press spoke up, that something suspicious and opportunistic was there beneath the surface of deciding to speak up (although you also admitted that, along with me, you didn't previously know about the British owning some of our ports already). However, in your thread, which was started after we began digressing into other issues in Lee's thread, you said this in your opening response: * PipTalk Alley Flashback: Guess Who Is NOT Coming To Dinner "So the Dubai port deal is history. I confess that I have no bad feeling about that, having fallen into the same mindset that the majority of Americans share where, forsaking logic and reason, we come up with the formula Arabs + ports = uneasiness. Democrats and Republicans alike, the ones who tell our security agencies that there can be no racial profiling whatsoever in dealing with airport security, are applauding themselves for saving our security from a country whose major crime seems to be that it is filled with Arabs." * In the rest of your opening response in that thread, you refer to "Congress", rather than simply "Democrats" or "Republicans", to validate that the dissent was bi-partisan from the beginning. Now, as the thread goes on, beginning particularly with your next response in Response #12, you acknowledge that it was the Democrats who continued making it an issue and wouldn't drop it and actually celebrated the victory after the deal was discarded, which I strongly agreed with you in saying in Response #14 that while they had a right to make a point about increasing port security, they shouldn't use the Dubai issue to push it and should let go as the Republicans did since the deal was dead anyway. So, as you can see, we're in absolute agreement that the Democrats were acting immature and opportunistically AFTER the Dubai deal was dead and gone to try and craft a political template to make them appear tougher on foreign policy than the Republicans with that issue. That's not what I'm questioning here. The Washington Post: February 22, 2006 What I'm questioning is how you now are spinning the Dubai controversy INITIALLY as something that merely Democrats dissented on and made a big deal about, disregarding your previous "Democrats and Republicans alike..." and "Congress" collectively language and pretending as though the Democrats alone made it an issue, when in fact many Republicans spoke up and manuevered to halt the deal as well, with Bill Frist and Dennis Hastert in fact being two of the most fiercest voices against the deal. That's what I mean when I questioned earlier in this thread that sometimes you just seem to speak like a GOP apologist, even while I do believe you're more fair-minded than that. That seemingly every time anything puts the administration in a defensive positioning or places a questionable aura around it, you immediately not only assume, but seem certain, that every time George Soros or MoveOn was responsible for it, and because of that you stand like some Buckingham Palace guard in front of the White House and defend them based on your instincts, or even assumptions. There are colleagues of mine at KBOO Community Radio who do the exact same thing who I question and debate just as much as I do here; who always argue when progressives or Cindy Sheehan or (gulp) Cynthia McKinney are placed in a defensive position or negative light that Karl Rove or Dick Cheney are behind it every time, and stand like unapologetic statues in front of those like McKinney, which I too often shake my head over. The bottom line is, some traditional conservatives and libertarians like Richard Viguerie, Bruce Fein and David Keene among plenty of others are just as outraged over the suspension of habeas corpus for suspects, warrantless wiretapping, signing statements and secret evidence in listing individuals as terrorists as many Democrats and liberals are. Not only George Soros, but over two-thirds of Americans support investigating these dismissals and having aides speak under oath without executive privilege. And YOU acknowledged yourself that "Democrats and Republicans alike..." applauded the halting of the Dubai deal. I'm somewhat impartial to olive oil, but you bet I've smelled the red palm oil today. I cook quite a South Pacific stir-fry with it! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yep, in that thread you highlighted, Noah, I DID refer to "Congress". Do you feel that the Democrats jumped on this because of security concerns for the country? Or is it because they saw an opportunity, a platform, to use to bolster their image on national security, which is viewed as a very weak point of theirs. The Republicans jumped on it because (1) the Democrats were getting coverage with it and (2) they were irritated that they learned of it from the news media instead of the White House.....all politics. Even as late as yesterday, after the matter had been resolved, the Democrats were calling for a vote on it, for no other reason than to show THEY were responsible for stopping it....all sleazy politics and on both sides. The Republicans, in their CYA mode, did pipe up on the issue, as a RESPONSE to the Democrat hysteria and even Bush buckled, which I have never excused him for. The fact still remains that it shouldn't have been an issue at all and would not have been, had the 'crats not seen another way of going after the admin. Howard Dean called the reversal a "great victory in our war against terror." I certainly did admit that the deal did give me an immediate gut reaction, just by virtue of the fact of having the words "Muslims" and "ports" in the same sentence but that's a far cry from the frenzy Dean and other went into. I repeat, the Republicans and Bush not shutting them down was not their finest hour. In that thread, even Ron called it (gasp!) "SILLY"!! Need we say more??? Me? A Buckingham Palace guard, Noah? Are those the guys who are so well-known for never speaking? NOT LIKELY!!! |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Fair enough on that Buckingham rebuttal! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
But she did dispatch that illegal immigrant Elian Gonzales???? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
And, alas, dear Skewtear serves less jail time than Paris Hilton, or Martha Stewart. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You sure you want to go there, reb? a cutesy remark worth it? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
What can you possibly have to offer in defense Mike? Unless you want to point the finger at somebody else. Not a defense. Of course here's the not-so-cute remarks; Less jail time than Judith Miller. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
I'm sure this isn't the first time in these forums, but were we right? Or were we right? the rest is still yet to unfold. stay tuned for the next segment of As America Turns. Happy Independence Day!! |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Being Canadian I read these forums with interest as Americans have real "spunk" when it comes to their politics, and I enjoy all the inter-action and exchange of your political ideas. We don't have the same jest for that up here as you do down there I am afraid. My first trip to the USA, and every subsequent one, has been in and around the 4th of July. I love this day down there as this to me anyway, what America stands for. You all sure proudly show it off on this particular day for the world to witness, and it's wonderful to see all the flags, and fireworks displayed with pride. So if I may, along with Reggie, I wanted to wish you all a very wonderful Independence Day. I also made a wish that your troops get the heck out of there as soon as possible. p.s. If I tell you that I am a die-hard Liberal - don't shoot me! |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Hey Sharon! I am absolutely glad you've shared your thoughts here as well, as I too absolutely agree this day epitomizes exactly how treasured our right to speak our thoughts and minds openly is here, a right I actually believe is universal yet sadly is thwarted in many developing countries worldwide, including Nepal, Uzbekistan and Uganda just to name several. I believe, also, we all share your prayer for getting our troops out of Iraq; all of us here are merely divided over how we go about doing so. I am in favor of a more immediate phased withdrawal to be completed by the end of this year, as I have opposed this war from the beginning and believe this war is already lost and is a total disaster personally, whereas several others here believe in either staying there until the al-Maliki government proves it can function on its own or, more generically and more bluntly, "staying the course" or staying there until the "job is done". And no, no one here's going to shoot you in that you happen to be a die-hard liberal, LOL, nor if anyone here declared oneself to be a die-hard neo-conservative, for as much as I disagree, and frankly condemn, the foreign policy ideals and philosophies of the neo-cons, I also believe beyond the opinions and ideals of each individual, whether it's Dennis Kucinich or Richard Perle, there is that human being we often overlook or take for granted when speaking our minds aloud, and that deep down I believe we have much more in common than we have differences; we all desire nothing but the best for our children at heart, we all here appreciate the grandness of the written word and poetic spirit, we all here will love a little bit of country and a little bit of rock and roll, etc. (smiles) So, essentially, I believe it's important we celebrate both our commonalities and differences, as that's what makes us a community after all. By the way, I've been celebrating our country's right to speak our minds openly by writing a new tongue-in-cheek poem about the whole Libby commutation ordeal titled "Scooter & The Commuter", which I won't post in Open as I prefer to post only lighter fare during the summer, but will probably post here! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, reb, sometimes things just happen that make one smile....in this case, guffaw. It's so heartening when chickens come home to roost (or when Democratic leaders have to shoot themselves in the foot once again because they have no other choice. Here's Hillary and the gang, talking about presidential pardoning being abusive and destroying the constitution. Here's Jesse Jr. talking about how perjury is a jailable offense and perjurers MUST go to jail. Man, this is saturday night material. Here's Hillary trying to do damage control... KEOKUK, Iowa (AP) — Democratic presidential contender Hillary Rodham Clinton drew a distinction between President Bush's decision to commute the sentence of White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby — which she has harshly criticized — and her husband's 140 pardons in his closing hours in office. As she campaigns with her husband for Iowa's leadoff precinct caucuses, Clinton has joined other Democrats in ripping Bush's decision. In the interview, she said it was "one more example" of the Bush administration thinking "it is above the rule of law." Her husband's pardons, issued in the closing hours of his presidency, were simply routine exercise in the use of the pardon power, and none were aimed at protecting the Clinton presidency or legacy, she said. It ain't finger pointing, reb. It's goose and gander stuff. They want to choke the goose while they gander elsewhere when their own heroes are involved. By all means, ignore the fact that Libby was nothing more than a scapegoat (which you are certainly intelligent enough to know and smart enough not to admit). These Democratic "swamp cleaners" simply can't avoid going after Bush for the same conduct their boy handled with nary a peep outta them. I'm sure they know how ridiculous they sound but, being Democrats on their never-ending mission to get Bush at any possible opportunity, they just can't help themselves. They certainly chose the right animal to portray themselves. Noah, that's great! I have an idea....take that poem and write 140 more covering Clinton's pardons and make a full-length book, maybe entitled "Pardon Me, Mr. President". You'll have some juicy material, pardoned terrorists caught making bombs on hidden video, a Democratic senator caught siphoning off millions from the postal service, another telling bribers on hidden tape that he wouldn't take their bribes this time but stay in touch becuase he might when he gets to know them better, felon friends from all walks of life....tell me you wouldn't have a best seller!!!! Oh, you're only interested in Libby? That's sad - but not surprising. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: See what I mean, Sharon? LOL! Yes, this national day of independence we just celebrated also epitomizes our right to make premature, hasty generalizations or assumptions about each other before we have even completed or posted poems or have come to ultimate conclusions! Look, inconsistency is clearly a definitive synonym in Washington now, and has been for further than any of us can remember I'm sure. These past several days have reinforced that reality, where 1) you have the same right-wing water-carriers who rallied to impeach President Clinton for perjury and obstruction of justice (which while I denounce the witch-hunt intent behind the campaign I nonetheless believe Clinton deserved to be punished for lying under oath) acting completely defensive and apologetic toward Lewis Libby, guilty of the exact same charges including lying to the Grand Jury and trying to impede the investigation, and 2) you have the same left-wing water-carriers who acted apologetically toward Clinton's perjury and obstruction of justice offenses behaving oppositely toward Libby's. The hypocrisy is astounding from both ends. I'll tell you right now that come the real 2008 election season, around the time the primaries kick into high gear, you'll be seeing quite a few satirical verses coming from me on so many of the candidates who embody that inconsistency, which Hillary Clinton is one of the worst offenders along with Mitt Romney. With many of my thematic verses, in fact, the writing process begins weeks, even months before the poem's ever posted or structured, beginning with interesting soundbytes or thoughts I pick up on, leading then to how I can cohesively link them together and make a verse out of them. The whole Libby crisis has been just that way with me, where a lot of thoughts already came to my head, then by the time his sentence was commuted last week, a most representative title struck me, and now the writing has kicked into high gear. I'm calling the major ones as I'm seeing them, and you can bet with another Clinton presidency it will provide much more fertile ground for great satire, which it'll be my pleasure to provide a slice of it with you. Until then, to tide over that insatiable appetite, you can write a hit off of Jesse Ray Harvey.......unless that is your credentials and/or specialties are limited to the Clinton name. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Mike, Unless you think that an accused murderer's valid defense is that 'OJ did it too' then there is no way that you can really think you've acquited Libby, Cheney, or Bush. So I guess the question is -- who do you think you're foolin? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That dog won't hunt at all, reb. If that same OJ jury were presented with the same facts in the same type of case a year later, only this time with a white defendant, and found him guilty, then I'd agree. That's basically what we have here. Substitute Democratic leaders for jury and democrat/republican for black/white, and you have the current scenario. BTW, Libby wasn't pardoned like the 140 Clinton cronies. Quarter of a million dollar fine, 2 years probation, certainly a loss of his right to practice law...pretty serious stuff for simply being a Democrat scapegoat. He will serve as much time for perjury as Clinton did for perjury...so the system is fine. The only circus act is the democrat outrage and foaming at the mouth and then the backtracking and attempt at damage control when it dawned on them how hypocritical they are coming off. Change "housewives" for "Dem leaders" and we have a new "Desperate" tv series! Noah, fair enough. When I see your satire hit both sides of the fence, I'll tip my hat to you. It's a great idea. Look at all the things that rhyme with Hillary....pillary, tomfillary, the possibilities are endless! Hope you had a great 4th, sir. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
quote: You're right; the system is fine in this particular case, and mind you I'm well aware it isn't a pardon (though I expect the president to pardon him by the time he leaves office) and rather a consummation of his sentence. I also agree Libby is very much the "fall guy" here and the greater scandal stretches to Richard Armitage in particular and the Vice President's office. I've heard frequently that on a personal level Lewis Libby is quite a decent man, and I truly understand how scandals and punishments like this can hurt their families emotionally very much, I truly do. United States Sentencing Commission: 2006 Federal Sentencing Guidelines: Offenses Involving the Administration of Justice United States Sentencing Commission: 2006 Federal Sentencing Table But I also don't buy at all that lame argument that Libby's sentence is "excessive" either. According to the United States Sentencing Commission, the base level for an Obstruction of Justice crime is 14, where three points could be added if "the offense resulted in substantial interference with the administration of justice.". Perjury is also a level 14 crime, but "If the perjury, subornation of perjury, or witness bribery resulted in substantial interference with the administration of justice, increase by 3 levels." 2006 Federal Sentencing Guidelines: Offenses Involving the Administration of Justice Of course there's also the False Statement guideline, then the grouping rules have to be considered because Libby was charged on more than one count. But the gist of it here is that once the final offense level is computed, and cross-referenced with the criminal history table (Libby has no prior convictions) you refer to the sentencing table, find the appropriate range, and when one does so, the sentence sounds just about right; 18-21 months on the low end and 24-30 on the high end. And since he was a high level government official and a lawyer who obstructed justice, surely it's sensible that he would get a sentencing in the higher applicable range. You may note I indeed feel particularly strongly about this case, and you're right, I absolutely do, and it's because 1) this whole scandal goes to the heart of the big lie behind Bush and Blair's justifications for going to war in Iraq, a war whose "reasons" I didn't buy to begin with, that Saddam Hussein was trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction, where in his 2003 State of the Union speech, Bush said that "the British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" and Rice took it to the next step that Saddam was trying to turn "a smoking gun into a mushroom cloud". Yet, regardless of all the other heinous acts Saddam committed on the Iraqi population, that yellowcake "intelligence" was doubted months, even years in advance by a wide number of sources and agencies, including Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency, CIA Director George Tenet, who argued the Africa-uranium claim not be included in the speech because it was based on only one source, the CIA agency in particular and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, who in January 2003 expressed publicly convincing concerns that the Iraq-Niger documents were forgeries. So Joseph Wilson had the temerity to share those conclusions with the public, the very man who was sent to investigate alleged sales of yellowcake uranium to Iraq in the first place. Administration officials resent what he's doing, so what do they do? Organize a campaign to discredit him, to smear any dissent or healthy questioning against the war within the circle, which all but certainly gravitates especially around the Vice President's office, and Libby, who happens to be Cheney's chief of staff, was willing to lie to the Grand Jury with the sole intent of protecting his own boss. And this whole consummation stunt is nothing but a cynical political ploy that sinews the fact that protecting the secrets of his inner circle and mollifying the eroding slice of right-wing water-carriers left in his political base are a higher priority to the president than preserving our right of law and ideals, as well as reveal how soft on crime this president can truly be often despite his tough record as a governor. It's a slap in the face to me, a slap in the face to the rule of law, a slap in the face to our young men and women in uniform who bravely and courageously continue serving on the torrid streets of Baghdad and beyond, left coping for themselves as both parties continue to offer the President a blank check on a failed foreign policy that has taken 3,586 lives, a slap in the face to their families who await and pray for their safe and healthy return and, frankly, it should feel like a slap in the face to every American right now I believe. This is far from the only time such a scandal has gotten to me emotionally, certainly, and in the decades ahead I expect to write verses on them gravitating around both parties. Frankly, I'm outraged about both the scandal and the consummation, along with 40% of Republicans in a new Pew Research Center poll, and it is beyond me why the other 60% in the survey aren't equally as outraged. quote: And this is where you're absolutely correct, my friend, as all the Democrats who have called for Libby's head but defended Clinton on the same crime are just as heinously hypocritical these past several days as the Republicans are for vice-versa. Yahoo: July 3, 2007 Why, Hillary Clinton had said at a debate on June 9th, when asked what her opinion was about a Libby pardon, refused to answer and said that the question was too personal and the night was anout the audience. Yet, on Tuesday, she comes out and says: "This (the Libby decision) was clearly an effort to protect the White House. ... There isn't any doubt now, what we know is that Libby was carrying out the implicit or explicit wishes of the vice president, or maybe the president as well, in the further effort to stifle dissent." She's a hypocrite to the umpteenth degree and personifies among many others the grim promise of maintaining the status quo of inconsistency in Washington for years to come. Heck, spin-offs of the "Desperate Housewives" have been airing long before "Desperate Housewives" even aired its pilot episode. If only now we had a spin-off of "Nanny 911" named "Indy 911". * Okay, goosfraba.......goosfraba.......LOL! I indeed had a wonderful Fourth of July and hope you did too, sir! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: No Mike. What you're trying to do is use evidence against OJ to convict Jeffery Dahmer, or rather, get Jeffery Dahmer off because OJ got off. quote: Once again, like clockwork, you resort to overly generalized mis-information to try to make a point that's somewhere nearly 180 degrees off the dart-board. But let's take a look at the controversial Clinton pardons: http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controversy Note that almost everyone on the list, with the exception of Mark Rich, either served some or ALL of thier sentences -- and very few could fall into the 'crony' category -- if at all. quote: You're right -- he hasn't been pardoned -- which means that his case is still up for appeal -- which means that he can't testify in any further investigations by Congress or by the DOJ. Pretty slick eh? Not only that -- by commuting Libby's sentence he's in effect excusing someone for actions that were taken under his direction -- something more similar to Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre -- something the principal framer of the Constitution, James Madison, said would be a gross missuse of Presidential Clemency power and should be rightfully impeachable. So, if the Congress decides to impeach Bush and Cheney -- and they can withstand the courts and the Congress as Clinton did, THEN, and only then, will the system be fine. Of course -- Bush and Cheney could have the temerity to simply do the right thing for the Nation like Nixon did, and simply resign. But then -- that would leave your 'Desperate Housewife' in charge. (Way to slide a masogynistic analogy in there.) |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Does this mean then, that you approve of the Clinton pardons Mike? That you're criticizing the Libby decision? That you agree Bush is no better than Clinton and failed to fulfill his campaign promise of restoring integrity to the White House? Is what's good for Noah good for you? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No Mike. What you're trying to do is use evidence against OJ to convict Jeffery Dahmer, or rather, get Jeffery Dahmer off because OJ got off. No, reb, what I'm saying is that, if OJ had been convicted of double homicide and was given probation and later a pardon and later your son was convicted of double homicide and given life, it would be reasonable for you to say, "What gives here?" and if the judge answered, "Double homicide is a life sentence" then there's a chance you would say, "And what about OJ?" That's what we are saying here and you don't want to hear it... Of course -- Bush and Cheney could have the temerity to simply do the right thing for the Nation like Nixon did, and simply resign. The right thing in YOUR opinion, of course. The Democrats would rather see him drawn and quartered, picked apart by vultures who ate his genitals inch by inch. Just maybe that would satisfy them and square the board for making them feel unimportant and dismissed....and, then again, maybe not. and very few could fall into the 'crony' category -- if at all. How many is a "very few"? More than one? Then they outnumber Libby.....but let's take a look. FALN pardons....President Clinton cited executive privilege for his refusal to turn over some documents to Congress related to his decision to offer clemency to members of the FALN terrorist group. In March 2000, Bill Clinton pardoned Edgar and Vonna Jo Gregory, owners of the carnival company United Shows International, for charges of bank fraud from a 1982 conviction. First Lady Hillary Clinton's youngest brother, Tony Rodham, was an acquaintance of the Gregorys, and had lobbied Clinton on their behalf Almon Glenn Braswell was pardoned of his mail fraud and perjury convictions, even while a federal investigation was underway regarding additional money laundering and tax evasion charges.[12] Braswell and Carlos Vignali each paid approximately $200,000 to Hillary Clinton's brother, Hugh Rodham, to represent their respective cases for clemency. Hugh Rodham returned the payments after they were disclosed to the public. Mark Rich.....Denise Rich, Marc's former wife, was a close friend of the Clintons and had made substantial donations to both Clinton's library and Hillary's Senate campaign. Roger Clinton, the president's half-brother, on drug charges after having served the entire sentence more than a decade before. Roger Clinton would be charged with drunk driving and disorderly conduct in an unrelated incident within a year of the pardon.[15] He was also briefly alleged to have been utilized in lobbying for the Braswell pardon, among others. These are just from the small handful of pardonees your second link contained. Funny how some Clinton had received money from several of these individuals.....coincidence, I asume? Does this mean then, that you approve of the Clinton pardons Mike? You got me there, reb. I have NO idea how you come up with that one. Attempting to twist it into something it's not won't fly. They are all still trying to do damage control. Bill Clinton today...I think there are guidelines for what happens when somebody is convicted," Clinton told a radio interviewer Tuesday. "You've got to understand, this is consistent with their philosophy; they believe that they should be able to do what they want to do, and that the law is a minor obstacle." Huh? Al Gore.....Former Vice President Al Gore said he found the Bush decision "disappointing" and said he did not think it was comparable to Clinton's pardons. Scott Stanzel, a White House deputy press secretary, said that, "When you think about the previous administration and the 11th-hour, fire-sale pardons ... it's really startling that they have the gall to criticize what we believe is a very considered, a very deliberate approach to a very unique case." "I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it," presidential spokesman Tony Snow said. Amen, brother. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Is that the imperial 'we'? Or are you the official water-carrier for the Bush Whitehouse? (I always suspected the latter) Actually -- that's exactly what I like to hear -- but, that's not what you were saying previously. If you look at the actual average sentences for Mr. Libby's crimes he's well within the 'sentencing guidelines' that Republicans, and the Bush Whitehouse in particular, are so adamant about: False Statement, 18 U.S.C. §1001(a)(2) Average prison sentence: 11.82 months Obstruction of Justice, 18 U.S.C. §1503 Average prison sentence: 46.33 months Perjury, 18 U.S.C. §1623 Average prison sentence: 28.50 months look them up yourself http://fjsrc.urban.org/analysis/t_sec/stat.cfm?stat=5 So then, by your own statements -- you want to know 'what gives' regarding the Libby prison sentence commutation? quote: Actually if the definition of 'crony' is someone who is acting at the President's bidding -- then... the answer is NONE. Unless you're alleging that Clinton was directing the FALN terrorists.... I don't know why he pardoned them -- and I'm not supportive of that decision. But -- so what? It has nothing to do with the sleaziness of the Bush Administration. The Gregorys served their time Mike. I think there is a pretty strong argument that Hillary's brother was brokering pardons. But -- so what? It has nothing to do with the sleaziness of the Bush Administration. Mark Rich I'm still confused about... all I know is that the Israeli government requested his pardon. Do you know why? But -- so what? It has nothing to do with the sleaziness of the Bush Administration. quote: I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming down Mike. You want to suggest that Noah can't criticize the Libby commutation unless he's going to criticize Clinton. So, by induction -- does that mean that since you're criticizing Clinton that you don't support the Libby sentence commutation? quote: No big question Mike. Even liars, like broken watches, sometimes tell the truth. quote: It is disappointing, to me, but probably not to Al. He probably just sees lunch. But, he's right -- it isn't comparable to Clinton's pardons -- look at the list -- then look at who Bush has pardoned, and failed to pardon (even at the request of the Pope and Pat Robertson). quote: What's real chutzpah is to make a statement like that when the 'considerations' that the President made, Libby's work history, his service to the public, the effect on his family -- are all the things that he and his administration say judges can't take into consideration when passing sentence. [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (07-06-2007 08:15 PM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: quote: FLIP/FLOP |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Bizzaroworld..... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
My OJ comparison does not pertain to Bush's sentence reduction of Libby. It relates to the time Libbly will spend in jail for perjury compared to the time Clinton spent in jail for perjury. No cronies of Clinton, you say? Well, I guess you have to define crony. Money to brother Tony? Money to brother Hugh? Donations to the Clinton library? Substantial donations to Hillary's senate campaign? Refusal to disclose the reason for FALN (you KNOW they have money!)? We're talking about the couple that turned the Lincoln bedroom into a Motel Six, the couple who stole the silverware, furniture and paintings from the White House when they left (to the point where the FBI had to go take it away from them). I would say Clinton would refer to any individual that slipped cash into their hands as "cronies". You want to talk sleazy? No, it has nothing to do with the Bush administration except that Mr. and Mrs. Sleaze, along with their usual suspects are now doing the rock-throwing from their saran-wrap house while condemning he who would destroy the Constitution. You got the sleaze part right, reb, but the finger is pointing the wrong way. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Yall are getting sleazy? I found this, and it's quite a short read, but there are many of the same words/themes in this thread. Almost eerie, but this proves that many are doing a lot of thinking on the subjects. there's a clock, a prediction, exploits, Scooty has cooties, etc. and this: quote: Newshoggers That's a powerful quote. Oh yeah, and the word "cronies," too. How ironic, or not. [This message has been edited by rwood (07-07-2007 11:50 AM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Haven't we already been here? round the mulberry bush again? I agree this was your original argument -- but it's not what you said in your last post... Oh well.. don't really mind repeating myself --just a cut and past i'nt it? quote: Let's just recall that in the Clinton and OJ trials there was something markedly different from Libby's -- the absence of a guilty verdict. I'm not sure what the average prison sentence is for persons found 'not guilty' Mike -- there seems to be no data available. (but I suppose we could consider Judith Miller to be a standard?) Of course -- had the Republican Senate found Mr. Clinton guilty he wouldn't have been 'sentenced' -- he would merely have been removed from office. But there was still that other thing needed to convict him.. oh, yeah... an indictment -- Ken Starr never indicted him -- did he? So, all you had was an activist judge taking it upon herself to find Mr. Bill to be in contempt of court. Those drated dastardly activist judges! ( Oh No Mr. Bill!) <-Kids won't get that I thought, I did define cronyism -- for our purposes here -- but if you want to open it up to the broader definition then we'd have to get into Enron, Haliburton, Jack Abramhoff, Saudi Princes, oh my God the list just goes on and on... who wants to open up that can of day-old asparagus? quote: So, then you're saying it's ok for Noah to only be irate about the Libby pardon. Cool. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Interesting read Reggie -- I think the conclusion is compelling (even though I don't think the theme of 'shame' was fleshed out adequately from a writing standpoint): quote: And, I agree, and disagree. I'm not sure that I see the point just for the points sake -- I would, rather -- if energy was spent on impeachment proceedings -- see the reccomendation of Reagan's National Security Advisor, General Odom carried out -- to impeach over the war itself and the abuse of power. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
I'll probably be slapped around for this, but you know what I'm feeling the most shame for right now, as an American? My elders are ashamed of our current government. The strong men and women of my family who went through several crises, wars, the Great Depression, etc. I see fear and anger in their eyes. Not of other countries. Of their own America. They feel everyone is being sucked in by the implosion of corruption within the network of our government, and anyone who "appears" to escape it or rise above as a leader? Must be protected by something even more diabolical. Sorry, I know that's subjective and emotionally rendered, but that's what came to me when you spoke of "fleshing out." and all the blood beneath, you know? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
My backhand is in the shop -- so, you're safe! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Aha,,,I was sure you had loaned it to Federer for Wimbledon. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Ah, good. My ouch is broke. Yall can get back to being sleazy now. You both have some good points btw. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Just think of it as tough love Mike! Reg; I thought I had my hair parted so they don't show? |
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