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Balladeer
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0 posted 2006-11-09 05:00 PM



Republican Sen. George Allen  conceded defeat Thursday to Democrat Jim Webb, sealing the Democrats' control of Congress and the political downfall of a man once considered a White House contender.

Allen said the "owners of government have spoken and I respect their decision."

Allen chose not to demand a recount after initial canvassing of the results failed to significantly alter Webb's lead. "I do not wish to cause more litigation that would not alter the results," Allen said, adding that he saw "no good purpose being served by continuously and needlessly expending money and causing any more personal animosity."


There were more than one close race which were to determine the Senate majority and yet I've seen no screaming of voter irregularities, hanging chads, difficult to read ballots, attempted influencing,  dirty political tricks, keeping voters from the polls,  no public opinion agencies hired to call voters to ask them if they are SURE their votes were not tampered with ...and no demands for recounts from candidates refusing to accept defeat. No one decided to delay the inevitable by setting up "investigations" of foul tactics by the opposing party or inability of the voting machine to function properly, uncaring of how it would affect the nation.

...but then, the Democrats  won. It would be nice to think it would have been the same if they had lost but history shows us differently, doesn't it?

My thanks to Senator Allen and the others for showing class and concern for their country ,even in defeat. Hopefully others can learn from it.

© Copyright 2006 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved
JesusChristPose
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1 posted 2006-11-09 07:09 PM


~ We were thinking of the same thing. The dems would of been screaming FOUL! I still remember Al Gore's flock of lawyers descending on Florida like vultures on roadkill. However, add Maine's senator to gracious loser too.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Local Rebel
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2 posted 2006-11-09 07:44 PM


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaca_(slur)
Ron
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3 posted 2006-11-09 08:38 PM


Generally, I suspect politicians (on both sides of the aisle) want a recount when they think there's a chance it might turn defeat into victory. In this particular election year, a recount would most likely just reveal a worse thumpin' than the first time around.

More seriously ('cause I really was just joking), I'm probably almost as disappointed in the results of this election as our Republican friends are. In my experience, any time the pendulum swings too wide it's only going to gain speed and eventually cut more deeply. It would be nice if our politicians, both Democrat and Republican, learned that quality is more important than quantity and a majority is no substitute for good leadership.



Mistletoe Angel
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4 posted 2006-11-09 10:04 PM


I agree with Ron here.

What did make me exhale a sigh of relief late Tuesday evening was that, following four years of a "rubber-stamp Congress" trifecta that was unchecked and unbalanced, this election has helped get us closer to living true to our checks and balances ideals that make our democracy great and effective.

Thus, this is something that, regardless if you're a Republican or Democrat, we can be excited about, in that truly our democracy works best when more than one set of eyes is transfixed on the plans for our great nation in the developing stages, and that essentially under divided government there are branches covering each other.

But I also have deep concern about this outcome in that intense partisanship in either direction just takes us back to square one, and while it is plain to see Bush and Pelosi will never seem eye to eye on many issues, it does no good in seeking positive solutions that strengthen our nation when the process is tainted with ceaseless contention rather than reconciliation and community. When I hear rhetoric about "bi-partisanship", you certainly can't expect Bush and Pelosi to mean that the 110th Congress will become the "Koombyea Congress" where we gather around the beach fire and sing serenades to one another. All I hope is that there can be a feeling of accomodation and compromise that comes out of this.

As a registered Independent, I was hoping for months that the Democrats would take the House of Representatives, but I wish the Republicans would hold a one or two seat majority in the Senate to especially even out the distribution of control. Ultimately, I guess that's not saying much, given I yearn to see a streak of solutions and problem-solving in Congress rather than pretentious preaching of mandates and such from either end.

*

Anyway, we'll see what happens come January, but though I would certainly respect Allen's wishes for a recount had he acted that way instead, given that I believe every especially close, honest election deserves an honest full recount, I also commend the class both Allen and Burns expressed today, just as Kerry and Daschle expressed in 2004 following their defeats. And that's the touch of dignity in politics I too desire to see more of.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

JesusChristPose
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5 posted 2006-11-09 10:20 PM


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaca_(slur)

~ Which means absolutely nothing about this thread.  

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Brad
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6 posted 2006-11-09 11:20 PM


quote:
Allen chose not to demand a recount after initial canvassing of the results failed to significantly alter Webb's lead. "I do not wish to cause more litigation that would not alter the results," Allen said, adding that he saw "no good purpose being served by continuously and needlessly expending money and causing any more personal animosity."


I don't see the comparison but that's just me. Why would anyone challenge the results if they were confident that it wouldn't change anything?


JesusChristPose
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7 posted 2006-11-09 11:27 PM


"I don't see the comparison but that's just me. Why would anyone challenge the results if they were confident that it wouldn't change anything?"

~ Exactly that. The man had the dignity, courage, and, as Mike put it, class to let the results be the results. The confidence from Gore and others was not that the results were true, but challenging legal issues over allegations of racism, etc., would lead to a victory ... equaling, NO CLASS.



Brad
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8 posted 2006-11-09 11:36 PM


As I recall, victory in that election came from a Supreme Court ruling.

The implication that Gore knew the results were true strike me as, well, uh, untrue.


JesusChristPose
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9 posted 2006-11-09 11:41 PM


~ As I recall, if Gore would of shown some class and conceded, like Allen did,  the Supreme Court would not have had to decide on the outcome.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Brad
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10 posted 2006-11-09 11:45 PM


So class means accept a lie as true?
iliana
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11 posted 2006-11-09 11:49 PM


As I recall, there truly have been voting irregularities for many years; and now with electronic scanners and voting machines, hacking is truly a possibility.  Though it was very disconcerting that Gore challenged the election back then, I am glad he did. It brought to our attention something we take for granted. Our voting systems need to have closer oversight and scrutiny by election officials and an official record should be public record to the voters.  It should not be left up to the companies that sell the voting equipment which can take partisan interest in the outcome of an election.  I watched a special on HBO the other night that every American should see.  This is an excerpt:   http://youtube.com/watch?v=uS75tSPpV7A

Most people with real class just keep that pinned close to their chest.  I'll agree that Allen is quite a spokesman and figure he got some good press out of his concession speech....he'll be back; he's a talented guy.  He's not dumb either -- what he did was good politics.

[This message has been edited by iliana (11-10-2006 12:07 AM).]

JesusChristPose
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12 posted 2006-11-09 11:51 PM


tsk, tsk, if it were a lie, it would have been reported as such, but as I recall, all of the recounts showed that Bush did win.

Some people just don't get it, but Mike did, and so do I. Sometimes, it is best for the entire counry to allow the official count, count.  Even if it may, just may be wrong due to the closeness of the outcome, or a lie as you state (which I don't understand because a lie would take one person lying about a multitude of occurances).

Get it?  

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

iliana
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13 posted 2006-11-09 11:54 PM


Watch the video, JCP.  Oversight is important.

I said nothing about a lie.  What are you talking about?

JesusChristPose
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14 posted 2006-11-09 11:58 PM


"I watched a special on HBO the other night that every American should see."

~ Because HBO said so, it must be true.

~ Seriously, the voting machines have always had problems. The fact is, those problems don't surface until a race, or races, become so close that those problems surface. It happens to be that during these past few elections, some races have been close enough to shed concern over the machines. Nothing is perfect, therefore, it is what it is. Those who lose can either take the high or load road. Allen chose the high road, but could of easily taken the low road, like Gore did, and dragged his election result out as long as possible, leaving it the courts.  

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
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15 posted 2006-11-09 11:59 PM


"Watch the video, JCP.  Oversight is important.

I said nothing about a lie.  What are you talking about?"


~ That was directed towards Brad.  

iliana
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16 posted 2006-11-10 12:02 PM


Even if Gore hadn't challenged, Al Sharpton would have because of all the formal complaints made.  I'll admit, I'd be pretty angry, maybe even angry enough to file a complaint, if I stood in line for hours and did not get to vote.  
iliana
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17 posted 2006-11-10 12:45 PM


JCP -- Since you dispute HBO's documentary; here's Princeton's study:   http://youtube.com/watch?v=GamR4y_ykA0&mode=related&search=
Balladeer
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18 posted 2006-11-10 01:12 AM


The Democrats in the previous two elections had a host of complaints, not only that the votes were close but also all of the charges....people not getting to vote, faulty machines, hanging chads, confusing ballots and the list goes on. In Florida there were THREE recounts, each showing the same results and still they continued, willing to give the entire process a black eye just to continue to be able to put on the front that they were cheated.

In this election, however, I see no Democratic complaints at all. Apparently, all of the machines worked properly, the ballots were easy to read, everyone who wanted to vote got to, and the entire process went like clockwork. Isn't that an amazing thing???

Rest assured that, had they lost, all of those things would have once again become issues for complaint with screams of foul. Call me psychic

Local Rebel
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19 posted 2006-11-10 07:25 PM


The only question for you Mike -- is if sometime when you went to vote and you felt that either by overt intent or negligence and incompetence you were denied your Constitutional right to exercise your franchise would you complain about it -- or would you be classy and just sit down and shutup?

Gore conceded the race you refer to -- it was complaints from VOTERS that prompted him to then challenge it.

Wouldn't it be the civic responsibility of the candidate of your choice to look into your complaint that you were denied your franchise?

And this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaca_(slur)  has everything to do with this thread because it is the reason for Allen's concession speech.

When considering the class of one party vs. another I'm little impressed by use of proper forks if they expell wind at the table.

Balladeer
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20 posted 2006-11-10 08:43 PM


Gore conceded the race you refer to -- it was complaints from VOTERS that prompted him to then challenge it.

You are not as well-informed as you would like to be, I'm afraid. The voters prompted him to challenge it? ..and  who prompted the voters? That all came out later in the papers down here  and there was a spot on 60 minutes, also.  One voter - ONE voter - called to complain that the ballot was hard to read. Apparently, a light went off in a democratic head and they saw an opportunity. They hired the largest PR firm in New York City (don't recall the name) to set up phone banks and call every registered democratic voter, asking them if there was a POSSIBILITY  that their vote had gone elsewhere due to the setup of the ballot.Then the hanging chads came into play. They then released news that many voters were claiming that their votes were miscounted. Open the phone lines for the avalanche of phone calls that came in from democratic voters swearing that they, too, had voted for Gore but their vote went somewhere else! Gore simply stood back and said (like you), "I'm not contesting it but it seems there's something wrong here and we owe it to the voters to investigate it fully.", or something along those lines.

THAT'S the story...not your "the voters complained" theory.

You want to contest that? Then imagine it the way the democrats originally set it up. Thousands of democratic voters went home and, at some point during the night, they all (individually, without knowledge of the others) came to the conclusion that their votes might have gone to the wrong person and called up to report it. That sound more feasible to you, reb?

It's a matter of record what happened...and it's a matter of class as to why.

Brad
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21 posted 2006-11-10 09:22 PM


quote:
09 Nov 2006 02:27 pm

George Allen may concede the Virginia race at 3 pm; or he may not. I think he should. The vote is so close that mere statistical errors could create another outcome. You could keep flipping the coin for ever. There's no question what the will of the American people is with respect to the Senate: a big majority of the popular vote went to the Dems. Allen emerges from this race looking battered and bitter. If he were to concede, it would be a gracious move that would instantly rehabilitate him in the public's mind. It's smart politics; and the right thing for the country.


Andrew Sullivan agrees with you.

I agree that it is in the national interest to have a dem controlled Senate.



Balladeer
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22 posted 2006-11-10 09:33 PM


Which nation are you referring to, Brad?
Brad
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23 posted 2006-11-10 09:44 PM


The United States of America.


JesusChristPose
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24 posted 2006-11-10 11:19 PM


~ Mike, you are the man!

~ I lived in Florida when that all happened and agree with you 100 percent. Not counting, there was much much more to it than that.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Local Rebel
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25 posted 2006-11-11 04:40 AM


So, Mike, let me get this straight;

Your indictment of Democrats here is that they investigated the allegation that there was some question regarding the vote and when they had gathered enough evidence, and only then, they went public.  Wheras they could have raised a stink as soon as they had just one voter complaining.

That is totally unclassy.  

You didn't answer the question.  (Or praise Harold Ford's concession speech, or condemn the RNC's 'Call Me Harold' ad).

Balladeer
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26 posted 2006-11-11 06:51 AM


An extremely feeble attempt at a twist there, LR.   No, you don't want to get it straight. It doesn't matter. Others reading this thread will and some will be objective enough to form their own opinions. I present it to them instead of playing twist-and-shout with you

Defensive finger pointing won't work here. No one has claimed, and I certainly won't, that sleazy politics don't exist on both sides of the aisle. This thread is about the graceful capitulation of the Republicans in this election. If you want to present the case that hitting someone with a racist slur equals a deliberate attempt to throw the country into turmoil by attempting to manufacture evidence rather than go out with any class, be my guest. I applaud the Republicans for not doing that.

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (11-11-2006 07:46 AM).]

Local Rebel
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27 posted 2006-11-11 07:17 PM


Here it is straight Mike;   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election%2C_2000

quote:

Due to the narrow margin of the original vote count, Florida law mandated a statewide recount

In addition, the Gore campaign requested that the votes in three counties be recounted by hand. Florida state law (F.S. Ch. 102.166) at the time allowed the candidate to request a manual recount by protesting the results of at least three precincts. The county canvassing board would then decide whether to recount (F.S. Ch. 102.166 Part 4) as well as the method of the recount in those three precincts. If the board discovered an error, they were then authorized to recount the ballots (F.S. Ch. 102.166 Part 5). The canvassing board did not discover any errors in the tabulation process in the initial mandated recount.

The Bush campaign sued to prevent additional recounts on the basis that no errors were found in the tabulation method until subjective measures were applied in manual recounts. This case eventually reached the United States Supreme Court, which ruled 5–4 to stop the vote recount, allowing Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris to certify the election results. This allowed Florida's electoral votes to be cast for Bush, making him the winner. Seven of the nine Justices agreed that the lack of unified standards in counting votes violated the Constitutional guarantee of equal protection of the laws, but five agreed that there was insufficient time to impose a unified standard and that the recounts should therefore be stopped.

Gore publicly disagreed with the court's decision, but conceded the election "for the sake of our unity as a people and the strength of our democracy". He had previously made a concession phone call to Bush the night of the election, then retracted it after learning just how close the election was. Following the election, recounts conducted by various United States news media organizations indicated that Bush would have won if certain recounting methods had been used (including the one favored by Gore at the time of the Supreme Court decision) but that Gore would have won had a full state-wide recount been conducted (The American Statistitian, February 2003, Vol. 57, No.1).




So, you see, Bush only won on a technicality.  How classy is that in a representative democracy?

There was no option to recount or not in Florida -- it is mandated by law.

Of course -- since it's Wikipedia you're welcome to rewrite it anyway you want, provided you have the evidence to back up your assertions!



Now, answer the question Mike.

Balladeer
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28 posted 2006-11-11 07:43 PM


Well, you have confused me. You put up a Wikipedia link followed by a quote and yet some of the things you include in that quote do not come from Wikipedia....what's up with that? Nowhere in that link does it suggest that Gore "conceded the election for the sake of the country." Hell, he STILL hasn't conceded!

Some other things I DID find in the Wikipedia link, though...

On January 6, 2001, a joint-session of Congress met to certify the electoral vote. Twenty members of the House of Representatives, most of them Democratic members of the Congressional Black Caucus, rose one-by-one to file objections to the electoral votes of Florida. However, according to an 1877 law, any such objection had to be sponsored by both a representative and a senator, and no senator would co-sponsor these objections. Therefore, Gore, who was presiding in his capacity as President of the Senate, ruled each of these objections out of order.
.
.
also


Numerous media outlets made the incorrect assumption that all of Florida's polls closed at 7:00 PM EST, which was not the case. Westernmost counties in Florida had polls open until 8:00 PM EST, as they were part of the Central Time Zone, so were open for one additional hour. This region of the state traditionally voted mostly Republican. Because of the above mistaken assumption, some media outlets reported at 7:00 PM EST that all polls had closed in the state of Florida. Also, significantly, the Voter News Service called the state of Florida for Al Gore at 7:48 PM EST. A survey estimate by John McLaughlin & Associates put the number of voters who did not vote due to confusion as high as 15,000, which theoretically reduced Bush's margin of victory by an estimated 5,000 votes. This survey assumes that the turnout in the Panhandle counties (which was 65% of the electorate) would have equalled the statewide average of 68% if the media had not incorrectly reported the polls' closing time and if the state had not been called for Gore while the polls were still open. This opens the possibility that Bush would have won by a larger victory margin and controversy would have been avoided if the networks had known and reported the correct poll closing times, and called the state after all polls were closed.

Here's one, which is among the most despicable..

There were a number of overseas ballots missing postmarks or filled out in such a way that they were invalid under Florida law. A poll worker filled out the missing information on some absentee ballot applications; the Democrats moved to have the returned ballots thrown out because of this. These disputes added to the mass of litigation between parties to influence the counting of ballots. The largest group of disputed overseas ballots were military ballots, which the Republicans argued to have accepted.

The Democrats were calling for technicalities to throw out the ballots of the military voters overseas because they knew that the military vote would be predominately Republican. How low can you go?

....and this one, which is actually the most telling part of the entire election..

Gore failed to win the popular vote in his home state of Tennessee. Had he won Tennessee which he didn't because Bush campaigned extensively for it due to its bipartisan base, he could have won the election without Florida. Gore was the first major party presidential candidate to have lost his home state since George McGovern lost South Dakota in 1972.

The state that knew him best didn't want him in the Oval Office

I don't need to rewrite Wikipedia...one just needs to  quote it the right way.


Local Rebel
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29 posted 2006-11-11 08:11 PM


When you're browsing a page Mike -- here's what you can do... copy a bit of the text you're trying to find -- then do a search page on that text -- when you do that -- you'll find everything I've quoted on the posted link.

You can quote anything you want from the page -- what you've quoted shows that Al Gore followed the law -- I don't know what your point is.

Democrats wanted the State of Florida to follow the law -- hmm... again -- I fail to see your point.

Nothing you've quoted serves as evidence of any of your allegations Mike.

The telling point about the election is that Bush won on a technicality in the Supreme Court and that the state of Florida actually elected Gore.

Now, answer the question.

Brad
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30 posted 2006-11-11 08:28 PM


quote:
On January 6, 2001, a joint-session of Congress met to certify the electoral vote. Twenty members of the House of Representatives, most of them Democratic members of the Congressional Black Caucus, rose one-by-one to file objections to the electoral votes of Florida. However, according to an 1877 law, any such objection had to be sponsored by both a representative and a senator, and no senator would co-sponsor these objections. Therefore, Gore, who was presiding in his capacity as President of the Senate, ruled each of these objections out of order.


This is actually shown in Moore's movie.
Images of this scene floated through my head when I read this attempt at undercutting Gore. I just don't see how you can compare one guy with the other and call one classy and the other not.

But I guess that's just me.



Balladeer
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31 posted 2006-11-11 09:10 PM


The only question for you Mike -- is if sometime when you went to vote and you felt that either by overt intent or negligence and incompetence you were denied your Constitutional right to exercise your franchise would you complain about it -- or would you be classy and just sit down and shutup?

That's the question you are repeating for me to answer? I would complain. Now it's answered and I have no idea what the connection is. That situation was not about people claiming  they were denied their constitutional rights. It was about a pr firm  manipulations.

"Mary, did the camp counselor touch you in a special place? No? All of the other children said he touched them. Why would he touch them and not you? didn't he like you, Mary?" Then, of course at some point Mary says "Well,maybe he touched me, too." Those were all of the votes they wanted changed.

Believe me, the old ladies in Palm Beach don't even have the intelligence level of Mary. It was a big joke here that senior citizens who could handle six bingo cards without missing a number couldn't punch a right hole on a ballot.

Now you can answer the question I asked..

You want to contest that? Then imagine it the way the democrats originally set it up. Thousands of democratic voters went home and, at some point during the night, they all (individually, without knowledge of the others) came to the conclusion that their votes might have gone to the wrong person and called up to report it. That sound more feasible to you, reb?

Then, if you please, tell me how you feel about the Democrats trying to throw out the military votes. You approve of the actions of the Democrats - the soldiers' friend? Or will that simply cause you to aim another finger in another direction?

Ron
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32 posted 2006-11-11 10:44 PM


quote:
The telling point about the election is that Bush won on a technicality in the Supreme Court and that the state of Florida actually elected Gore.

Technicality, Reb? Isn't that just a politically loaded word for law of the land?

The election was disputed, the dispute was legally settled, and I'm sorry but the settlement isn't negotiable or open to interpretation. The state of Florida did NOT elect Al Gore, Reb, because the highest court in the land said it didn't. Is that a technicality? That's the law.

quote:
Then, if you please, tell me how you feel about the Democrats trying to throw out the military votes.

That's another technicality, Mike, i.e., the law of the land. You can't just write your vote on a bar napkin, send it in, and call it an absentee ballot. Similarly, and for exactly the same reasons, you can't incompletely or inaccurately fill out an official absentee ballot form and expect it to count. I have no idea what was missing, or how necessary it was to help determine the legitimacy of each vote, but I do know it was legally required.

When push comes to shove, Mike, there's no such thing as military votes. They're all American votes, and the military doesn't get (nor, I believe, do they expect) a free pass.

iliana
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33 posted 2006-11-11 10:50 PM


Mike, even though you were there, you have left out some important things.  It wasn't just a Gore challenge; there were individual lawsuits filed all over the State of Florida; and if you watched the video I provided earlier, it has been proven that there was hacking into the electronic voting machine cards in one of the contested counties -- too late for Gore, though; but in time for many voting officials to be aware of the security problems with electronic voting machines.

Yes there was a recount, but they did not recount two of the most important counties; and what they recounted was against something that couldn't be traced (if the machines had been hacked).  

Yahoo News has an article from back during that time:  

quote:
"Hundreds of voters in Palm Beach County have protested against what they said was a confusing ballot layout sheet that led them to cast votes by mistake for Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan rather than their preferred candidate Gore.".
Election Dispute

***Gore was not my choice that year so one might say (but probably not you) that I watched and read the news without  impartiality as it comes to him.***

quote:
"Researchers at the University of California, Berkeley, said today that they have uncovered statistical irregularities associated with electronic voting machines in three Florida counties that may have given President George W. Bush 130,000 or more excess votes. The researchers are now calling on state and federal authorities to look into the problems.".

Voting Machine Fraud Research


Fixed url.

[This message has been edited by Alicat (11-11-2006 11:26 PM).]

Balladeer
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34 posted 2006-11-11 11:07 PM


Hundreds of voters in Palm Beach County have protested against what they said was a confusing ballot layout
sheet that led them to cast votes by mistake for Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan rather than their preferred
candidate Gore.


Fine, Iliana. Then please explain to me how these voters came to the conclusion that their votes went to Buchanan instead of Gore. Did they vote, leave, go home and then somehow determine from home that the Gore vote they cast went to Buchanan instead? Just how would they know that? The only time they could possibly know that their vote went where it was not supposed to go was at the time they cast the vote. That's what made it so ludicrous and spawned the Palm Beach voter jokes. I'd appreciate you being able to provide an answer to this.

iliana
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35 posted 2006-11-11 11:27 PM


I don't know for sure, Mike.  But I will tell you, after I voted last Tuesday, I discussed it with my husband.  I asked him why the city's issues were not on the ballot.  He told me they were.  And then we proceeded to compare notes.  I found out that the voting machine I voted on must have been faulty because I never got the screen where the County issues were -- it just told me to cast my ballot and then ended its program.  I'm pretty ticked about it but I have no way to prove it.  I was not going to call an official over there to see my vote.  The issue that I wanted to vote no on was the light rail system.  It will raise my taxes considerably.  Was there fraud?  Who knows....I'm certain though that the City and County want this through.  Although, next time, you'd better believe I will!

My point is that after elections, people talk.  I imagine the elderly even compare notes and talk about when things are confusing to them.  Maybe they investigated.  Believe whatever the heck you want, Mike...I don't care, but when you put things up in public, they should be accurate.  

BTW, weren't you a Navy man?  I thought you wouldn't be too unhappy that a Navy man took Allen's spot.

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36 posted 2006-11-11 11:27 PM


When push comes to shove, Mike, there's no such thing as military votes. They're all American votes, and the military doesn't get (nor, I believe, do they expect) a free pass.

I'll have to disagree with that in practice, Ron. When the point is missing postmarks, I believe an exception is not out of line for servicemen overseas. They fill out the  ballots, turn them in and they go to the APO to be sent to the states. They are not responsible for missing postmarks or late arrival. There are certainly "military" votes when they come from overseas and, no, the soldiers do not expect special treatment but they do count on actions beyond their control being handled correctly and, if they are not, they expect reasonable minds to take that into consideration, I believe.

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37 posted 2006-11-11 11:36 PM


Believe whatever the heck you want, Mike...I don't care, but when you put things up in public, they should be accurate.  


That's your answer? In other words you cannot come up with a different explanation. I agree.

As far as things should be accurate, tell that to the Democrats who designed the ballots....THANK GOD! If the ballots  had been designed by Republicans, one can only imagine the screams of foul and deception they would have come up with. As it  was, they couldn't say anything and tried to downplay the fact that the design was theirs.

No, I wasn't Navy.

iliana
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38 posted 2006-11-11 11:38 PM


Mike - The ballot was not designed by the Democratic party.  The ballot was designed by one person -- Theresa LePore, Palm Beach county's supervisor of elections, to be exact.  
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39 posted 2006-11-11 11:41 PM


Fri Nov 10, 4:17 PM ET

MIAMI (Reuters) - A Florida voter may have unwittingly lost hundreds of thousands of dollars by using an extremely rare stamp to mail an absentee ballot in Tuesday's congressional election, a government official said on Friday.
ADVERTISEMENT

The 1918 Inverted Jenny stamp, which takes its name from an image of a biplane accidentally printed upside-down, turned up on Tuesday night in Fort Lauderdale, where election officials were inspecting ballots from parts of south Florida, Broward County Commissioner John Rodstrom told Reuters.

Only 100 of the stamps have ever been found, making them one of the top prizes of all philately.


The legend of the Florida voter lives on!!

JesusChristPose
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40 posted 2006-11-11 11:43 PM


~ Democrats continue to miss the point about Florida. Here are the facts:

1. Even after the recounts, Bush still won.

2. Many people in the navy did not vote because the liberal media reporting that Gore won Florida, when in fact, the panhandle had 1 hour to go before the polls closed. Myself, if it were reported that Florida went to Gore, I wouldn't waste my time to vote. Why? Because the media never EVER gave a state incorrectly during a presidential election in the past.

3. Those military votes were not counted NOT DUE TO THE FAULT OF THE VOTER! Why can't people get that? Those votes SHOULD of been counted, yet Gore and his team of lawyers, who were so intent on the fairness and rights of voters .... MADLY fought to get those votes thrown out.

Now, back to the original topic, it was a touch of class, indeed. Something Gore has none of.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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41 posted 2006-11-11 11:44 PM


Yes, Iliana...a Democrat. I did not say the Democratic party.
JesusChristPose
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42 posted 2006-11-11 11:47 PM


"Mike - The ballot was not designed by the Democratic party.  The ballot was designed by one person -- Theresa LePore, Palm Beach county's supervisor of elections, to be exact."

~ In a Clay County Florida school, 4th graders were given the same ballot that was so confusing for the people in Palm Beach who claimed to have voted for Pat instead of Al because the ballot was confusing. I can't remember what the exact percentage was of how many 4th graders correctly scored the ballot, but I do remember it was over 90%

~ Oh, and another thing, I watched this on with my own eyes on a local newscast.... Gore supporters were giving out free cigarettes to people if they would register and vote for Gore. LOL.

    

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

iliana
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43 posted 2006-11-11 11:47 PM


And you know that for a fact, Mike?

What branch of the military were you in so I don't make that mistake again?

iliana
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44 posted 2006-11-11 11:49 PM


JCP - And when I worked for the Republicans, we gave out free calendars, free kitchen magnets, and free giant paperclips, free posters, free pencils, and free pens.
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45 posted 2006-11-11 11:50 PM


Believe me, I know it as an iron-clad fact. It got a lot of news space down here.

Air Force.

JesusChristPose
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46 posted 2006-11-11 11:53 PM


"JCP - And when I worked for the Republicans, we gave out free calendars, free kitchen magents, and free giant paperclips, free posters, free pencils, and free pens."

~ Well, I am not sure on the day of a presidential election, people who are not going to vote would vote for the republican just because they were offered free pencils and pens. You missed the point.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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47 posted 2006-11-11 11:53 PM


JCP...thank you! I had completely forgotten about the school kid tests they ran...LOL! Better proof of the Palm Beach voter mentality

I'm afraid your point about giving out cigarettes was lost on Iliana....ah,well

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48 posted 2006-11-12 12:12 PM


Actually, I see nothing confusing about the ballot at all..


iliana
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49 posted 2006-11-12 12:13 PM


Mike and JCP, are you now defining people by whether they are smokers or not?  You mean to tell me that cigarettes motivate voters more than other things?  Come on...that's a pretty lame scenario.  That's about as close as you can come to saying for Christmas, a person gives their "servants" a carton of cigarettes (like my now deceased wealthy plantation owner uncle from Northern Florida used to do -- uncle by marriage mind you -- almost don't want to claim him but he had good points too).  Are you saying the African American vote was bought and paid for with cigarettes?  Shame on you, if you are.  (You should visit Wall Street.)  

BTW -- I hope your Veterans Day was good.

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50 posted 2006-11-12 12:31 PM


All I can say about the 2000 election debate is, we'll just have to wait and see if Thomas Alvin Cooper commits a felony on January 30th or not!  

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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51 posted 2006-11-12 12:31 PM


LOLOL!! Your mind is a wonderful thing to watch at work, Iliana. The paths it can take are amazing.

No, we only referred to the irony of passing out cigarettes - you know, those round things that spread cancer, enmhazema, the things that the government warns against, that the Surgeon General says don't do, that millions are spent to warn Americans against...those things that bars, restaurants and office buildings don't allow. It seems a little ironic that THAT is what politicians would pass out to entice people to vote.

Nothing to do with plantations owners or buying the Black vote...sorry to disappoint.

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52 posted 2006-11-12 12:35 PM


I think their point was that the Republicans gave out what amounts to office equipment, which is hardly addictive to most people. Not all, mind ya, as it do take all sorts.  Now, the Dems giving out cigarettes, which are rather addictive, which just doesn't quite measure up to office supplies.  Not to mention the Dems were all over that massive multi-state class action lawsuit against Big Tobacco in the late 90's, which was one of the primary reasons Gore lost his home state, tobacco being one of their primary industries, and the Gore family being heavily into tobacco production.
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53 posted 2006-11-12 12:40 PM


Ali - that's one reason why I have a hard time believing the newspaper reports of that happening were more than campaign and post-campaign (election dispute) propoganda.  
JesusChristPose
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54 posted 2006-11-12 12:40 PM


~ I mean, come on people, if a presidential candidate cannot even win his/her home state, then he/she doesn't deserve to win the election at all. Think about it.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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55 posted 2006-11-12 12:48 PM


Noah, that's too funny!
iliana
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56 posted 2006-11-12 12:53 PM


JCP, what a comment -- "deserve."  It has nothing to do with deserving -- it has to do with EARNING and validity of the vote.  I said Gore was not my candidate of choice at the time.  My point is that with the irregularities in voting equipment which I've proven to you exist, challenging a close election is not an unclassy thing to do.  Especially, when the votes were at one time only about 400 apart.  I'd agree with you guys a little more if you had mentioned what appeared to be Gore's temper tantrums post-election, but you haven't mentioned those.  He seemed hot-tempered to me.  But knowing what I know now, I have to wonder if it wasn't justified.  
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57 posted 2006-11-12 12:59 PM


Well, let's face it. Gore's tantrums paled next to Kerry's....no contest.

I guess all of those irregularities in the voting equipment got fixed. This was the perfect election...no irregularities, no problems with ballots, no one denied the right to vote, absolutely nothing went wrong at all. What could have made such a huge difference for the first time in 6 years? Oh, yes....the Democrats won! Seems like those irregularities only come around when they lose, which recent history points out vividly.

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58 posted 2006-11-12 01:00 AM


Check you email, Mike.  
Local Rebel
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59 posted 2006-11-12 01:10 AM


quote:

Technicality, Reb? Isn't that just a politically loaded word for law of the land?

The election was disputed, the dispute was legally settled, and I'm sorry but the settlement isn't negotiable or open to interpretation. The state of Florida did NOT elect Al Gore, Reb, because the highest court in the land said it didn't. Is that a technicality? That's the law.



It's absolutely politically loaded Ron, and that's the point.     It's one of those technicalities Mike is always complaining about, like, juries and Miranda.  

In reading the arguments from Bush and Gore camps in Bush v. Gore the thing I find is that I agree with BOTH arguments -- the individual county recounts were a violation of equal protection AND every state and county in the United States SHOULD be ordered by the court to adopt the same standards.

However, even though the decision of the court is final, which Gore (and I) respected, it is most certainly open to interpretation because the court, in an unprecedented move, specifically ordered that this case was NOT to be used as precedent because of how wierd the situation was -- it all came down to a matter of the clock really.  (not to mention a 5/4 split that followed party lines on the court).

But, the decision is not the point here at all -- I think we were talking about class?

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60 posted 2006-11-12 01:14 AM


quote:

As of 3 p.m., the Election Protection coalition, which includes the Lawyers' Committee, People for the American Way, and the NAACP, had received 12,300 calls, most of which were informational but many that reported voting troubles including closed polling stations, malfunctioning machines, etc. Even Rep. Jean Schmidt, an Ohio Republican, had difficulty in getting her ballot read by an automatic scanner.

Most calls, by state, since 6 a.m.:

Ohio

Georgia

Florida

Pennsylvania

California

North Carolina

In addition, the coalition is now considering lawsuits in Pennsylvania, Florida, Utah, and Georgia, according to a People for the American Way spokesman. A lawsuit was filed in Maryland yesterday regarding absentee ballots but was denied by a judge.

Voting Irregularities

Local Rebel
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61 posted 2006-11-12 01:28 AM


quote:

The Florida election has been closely scrutinized since the election, and several irregularities are thought to have favored Bush. These included the Palm Beach "butterfly ballot", which produced an unexpectedly large number of votes for third-party candidate Patrick Buchanan, and a purge of some 50,000 alleged felons from the Florida voting rolls that included many voters who were eligible to vote under Florida law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election%2C_2000



When election results don't match polling data what you do Mike is get somebody with the calling capacity (ie your much ballyhooed New York PR firm -- do you keep complaining that it's from New York for a reason ) to survey people who actually voted and find out who they voted for or thought they voted for.  It's really that simple Mike.

It's completely in character though for you to claim that your opposition's complaints aren't valid and that yours would be.  Why are Democrats constitutional rights different from yours?

Local Rebel
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62 posted 2006-11-12 02:13 AM


quote:

Ms. McKINNEY. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned awhile ago a fact of what happened in the elections in Florida, which I would like to take an opportunity to revisit, and I am glad that the gentlewoman from Florida (Ms. BROWN) has agreed to stay here so that she can respond to this information.

   An enterprising journalist by the name of Gregory Palast who operates out of London and works with BBC-TV has provided some very interesting information to me. I have got a list here, and the list is about those people who were put on the voter file that said that they could not vote because they were convicted felons. I have got the list here.

   For instance, number 354 on the list is Johnny Jackson, Jr., who is a black male from Texas, and then, unfortunately, John Fitzgerald Jackson. They said that those two people were the same people, so John Fitzgerald Jackson in Florida was denied the right to vote because a list from Texas that had the name of Johnny Jackson, Jr., on it, said that Johnny Jackson, Jr., was not eligible to vote.

   I have got on this list, for example, Thomas Alvin Cooper, who is a white male from Ohio. Thomas Cooper is a pretty common name. There is more than one Thomas Cooper, I am sure, in all of the people in Florida. But Thomas Cooper was denied the right to vote in Florida, and Thomas Cooper in Florida, who was denied the right to vote, was a black man.

   I have got here Michael Rodriguez from New Jersey, and I am sure Michael Rodriguez is a common name. But in Florida, Michael Rodriguez was denied the right to vote. In New Jersey it was Michael A. Rodriguez.

   What this list shows is that there were about 2,800 people who were not allowed the right to vote because the State of Florida said that they were convicted felons in other states, and, therefore, they could not vote in Florida.

   Mr. Speaker, 57,700 people, innocent people, I might add, were targeted for removal. Ninety percent of the people on the list that was purged so that these people could not vote in Florida, 90 percent of the names were wrong. At least 54 percent were black. 80 percent of those who finally were purged were black, and 93 percent of the people who were targeted to be purged vote Democratic.

   Ms. BROWN of Florida. If the gentlewoman would yield for one minute, let me give you the rest of the story. Florida used $4 million of taxpayer money that they gave to a firm, it was not bid out, to a firm from Texas. Katherine Harris' office did that to the people of Florida, and they came up and purged people. There was no procedure, none whatsoever.

   In fact, when I went to the poll on election day, I went downtown and there was some young black guys there saying they are not letting them vote because they said they were felons, and they had never been arrested.

   Ms. MCKINNEY. It was a procedure, all right, but the procedure was that if you were black, then you had your name on this list and you were denied the right to vote.

   Ms. BROWN of Florida. There is no question. But I am going back to how it came about. There was a bid, a non-solicited bid, where a contract was given to a firm, and all this is in the record, and the firm told the State of Florida that this system that you are using will identify people that are not convicted felons. The State of Florida says, oh, that is okay. That is okay.

   Ms. MCKINNEY. That is exactly what happened. The name of the firm was Database Technologies, which was later absorbed by ChoicePoint, which has its headquarters right outside of

Atlanta. The gentlewoman is absolutely right, that they told Katherine Harris, for whom a Congressional District I understand is being specially carved, that the information we are going to give you, according to your specifications, is wrong. We want you to know that the information that we are going to give you, the information that you have requested, is wrong. Do you want us to give you wrong information? And Katherine Harris and company, said yes, we want the wrong information.


http://rs9.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r107:H05DE1-0083:

iliana
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63 posted 2006-11-12 02:40 AM


Reb, I believe that about 49% of this country is in a deep state of denial.  It's just too hideous to think that these things go on.  Fortunately, 51% of the country is waking up.  
Ron
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64 posted 2006-11-12 07:44 AM


quote:
This was the perfect election...no irregularities, no problems with ballots, no one denied the right to vote, absolutely nothing went wrong at all. What could have made such a huge difference for the first time in 6 years? Oh, yes....the Democrats won!  Seems like those irregularities only come around when they lose, which recent history points out vividly.

Mike, one could also conclude, from exactly the same premises, that only the Republicans cheat? Such a conclusion would very nicely explain the events you've described, after all.



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65 posted 2006-11-12 09:14 AM


your much ballyhooed New York PR firm -- do you keep complaining that it's from New York for a reason

Interesting comment. I went back and checked and can find that I only mentioned it once and then as an informational fact....a PR firm from New York City.  Is that considered "much ballyhoo" or "keeping complaining that it's from New York"?

It's also completely in character for you to do something like that to invent and shift focus....doesn't work this time but keep trying

Mike, one could also conclude, from exactly the same premises, that only the Republicans cheat?

Yes, I guess that would be true, Ron.....if they were found to be cheating. Otherwise it becomes the only ones being accused of cheating.  I've seen nowhere throughout these sterling examples where that came to pass. In the words of someone whose name I can't recall....."Sayin' it don't make it so"


Iliana, there were some interesting parts of the link you offered (do YOU read them, I wonder?)  There were citings of voting irregularities, for sure. Unfortunately, the article did not specify which side they came from. Many of them were shocking!  For example....
Cincinnati: A police cruiser was parked about 30 feet from the entrance to bldg. at this precinct. Two officers were in the car, motor running, just watching the entrance to the polling place. Didn't seem to be on a call; were there for a while; no flashing lights.

one polling place opened late because of an overnight break in.

Franklin: Voter instructed to use provisional ballot because poll worker thought, incorrectly, that voter had requested absentee ballot.

Holmes: Student voter was given conflicting information regarding whether she could vote using her home address when her driver's license indicated her student address.

Delaware: Voter tried to vote with driver's license with old address, a letter from the DMV indicating her new address, and an electric bill with hew new address. She was allowed to vote but nervous because poll workers recorded the last four digits of her license number.

Boulder: Woman lives in Latino neighborhood and saw "weirdo" man walking around the neighborhood wearing a mask with an "X" on it and telling individuals not to vote


49% of the  country is in denial? I DENY that!! .....but it's interresting that you know what 49%are thinking. I applaud your powers

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66 posted 2006-11-12 09:37 AM


Perhaps, Iliana, you are basing your conclusions on polls, instead of divine inspiration, although I cannot find that 49% poll.  I did find  an interesting Newsweek poll  this morning, though..

While a bare majority of 51 percent called the Democrats' victory "a good thing," even more said they were concerned about some of the actions a Democratic Congress might take, including 78 percent who were somewhat or very concerned that it would seek too hasty a withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

Another 69 percent said they were concerned that the new Congress would keep the administration "from doing what is necessary to combat terrorism," and two-thirds said they were concerned it would spend too much time investigating the administration and Republican scandals.


I'd call that  pretty accurate. Guess part of that 49% living in denial are not really the dummies you portray.

"Too much time investigating scandals.."  As I say, a matter of class.


Ron
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67 posted 2006-11-12 10:31 AM


quote:
Yes, I guess that would be true, Ron.....if they were found to be cheating. Otherwise it becomes the only ones being accused of cheating. I've seen nowhere throughout these sterling examples where that came to pass.

Neither have I, Mike, though I do find Local Rebel's figures on the infamous list of felons turned away from the polls more than a little troubling. Especially this part:

"Mr. Speaker, 57,700 people, innocent people, I might add, were targeted for removal. Ninety percent of the people on the list that was purged so that these people could not vote in Florida, 90 percent of the names were wrong. At least 54 percent were black. 80 percent of those who finally were purged were black, and 93 percent of the people who were targeted to be purged vote Democratic."

If that is true, or even just largely true, I think it should trouble you, too. While it's still just circumstantial evidence of foul play, it's pretty darn convincing circumstantial evidence.

Personally, I believe there are honest and less-than-honest men residing on both sides of the aisle. But I also believe that tendencies, which are surely evident in both parties, usually become realities as a reflection of those in charge. It's not just do-do that rolls downhill, after all, but also attitudes and organizational cultures. It has become abundantly clear to most people that President Bush is perfectly willing to lie to the American people when he's convinced it's for their own good. Do you think it at all likely that Bush believes electing Democrats is for their own good? I don't think it's a giant leap, by any means, to imagine President Bush rigging an election for what he honestly believes is the greater good. And those following his leadership surely know that, too.

When someone believes the end justifies the means, it's very difficult to predict the boundaries they will choose to honor.



iliana
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68 posted 2006-11-12 03:09 PM


Mike, let's get one thing straight.  I did not call 49% "dummies."  What I said was that they were "in denial" and I'm sticking by that.  I thought it was evident what I meant by 49% -- meaning the split in the Senate.  That's a fairly accurate reflection of the vote, I'd say.  You've been studying out of the Karl Rove playbook, me thinks.  
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69 posted 2006-11-12 04:52 PM


I just wanted to chime in here again and also say I respect Conrad Burns, too, for his class following a close election in Montana as well.

Normally I couldn't care less who gets elected to the Senate, as it seems only the richer of Americans can run steady campaigns these days. But there's one senator who I was delighted to see get elected Tuesday, and that was Jon Tester in Montana.



Ever so often, we get senators that sprout from elite establishments and the same, familiar big cities, and I believe that's exactly why the Democrats have had difficulty electing presidents in the past twenty-five years; they rely on wealthy, elitist-minded individuals who have trouble speaking unequivocally, like Michael Dukakis, Walter Mondale and John Kerry (Democrats, look to the likes of Barack Obama and Mark Warner for clues on how to win a future presidency.)

But this time around, it seems the Democrats are finally getting an idea of what sort of candidates will draw the greater voting blocs in; by running what's being described now often as "big-tent Democrats" who don't try to emulate the Dukakis and Kerry doctrines, and rather appear like they are not only in tune with middle-American values; they personify and breathe them, and I think that's really what helped the Democrats rise above the deep odds in taking the Senate majority as well Tuesday.

Jon Tester is like that. Besides the flat-top haircut, LOL, here we have a Democrat who was born and raised in Big Sandy, a town of only about 700 in population, with little to show off except the Big Bud 16V-747, a custom-made tractor that is now in the Guinness Book of World Records as the largest tractor on Earth. Moreover, Big Sandy is a community that has been struggling to keep up with the winds of change like many rural communities. Two of their three banks have closed down, their movie theater has called it curtains, and their school is so quiet now that their football team plays an eight-man version of the game.

Tester understands hometown pride and the value of rural community, and has lived on the family farm virtually his whole life up until now, which has been passed on down from his grandparents to him, who now does organic farming there and harvests lentils and wheat. He has also served as a local butcher (he lost three fingers on his left hand in a meat grinder accident growing up), a conservation board member, and a high school basketball referee and music teacher at Big Sandy Elementary School.

Obviously, it's certainly not the first time a small-town boy has been elected to the Senate, of course. But personally I think it's inspiring that in this day in age especially, 1/100 of our Senate is represented by a native from a small-town of 700, and I'm optimistic this could inspire increasing attention to the importance of preserving these valuable farm towns and communities and such.

Tester strikes me as a unique candidate that I think will really stand out in the next Senate. I don't know if I can say the same thing for the other elected Democratic senators or not. Claire McCaskill impresses me on first impressions in that she's very articulate and seems to understand the spirit and legacy of Harry Truman in her native Show-Me State, and I think Webb could help place a more moderate, even conservative face on the party, but all in all I don't feel the other candidates like I feel Jon Tester.

I still am far more than hesitant of evolving from a registered Independent to a registered Democrat, as I still feel the leadership of the Democratic Party is undulated with those elitist influences and on a fundamental level are equally as responsible for the devolving of our democratic process as the GOP. But I believe, first with the electing of Barack Obama in 2004, and now with the electing of Jon Tester this year, I believe the party is gradually moving in the right direction.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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70 posted 2006-11-12 07:10 PM


It has become abundantly clear to most people that President Bush is perfectly willing to lie to the American people when he's convinced it's for their own good.


I don't think it's a giant leap, by any means, to imagine President Bush rigging an election for what he honestly believes is the greater good. And those following his leadership surely know that, too.

Ron, I would expect such sweeping comment like that from some members who post here but coming from you surprises me. Ok, I'll play. How can you claim it is abuntantly clear?  What facts support that? How can you speak for most people?   Do you  rely on some report that states most people are willing to brand Bush a liar? Which one? How do you claim that those following his leadership know that he would rig an election? Who? What makes you sure that they surely know that? You make these statements as fact. Validate them.  As I say....from you, I am surprised.

As far as the quote you began with, that does cause thought and I'm going to see what information on it I can gather from more than just one source.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia
71 posted 2006-11-12 08:10 PM


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File#2000_Florida_Election_Controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChoicePoint

there's a start

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
72 posted 2006-11-12 10:45 PM


~ Wow. How this thread took off in so many directions.

~ The bottom line is the "touch of class" shown by the good senator from Virginia. A man, who could of started all kinds of "conspiracy crap"  
but didn't. A man who could of taken all of the  information about the irregularities of the voting machines, but didn't. A man who could automatically called for a re-vote, but didn't. Maybe he couldn't use the "minority card" and that is why he didn't. However, the  fact remains...

He could of, but didn't. Out of class.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
73 posted 2006-11-12 10:55 PM


"there's a start"

~ It comes from this specific source, so it MUST be true. LOL.  

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
74 posted 2006-11-12 11:44 PM


quote:
How can you claim it (President Bush lying) is abuntantly clear? What facts support that?

Uh, you want to talk about WMD again, Mike?  

No? Okay, let's stick to more recent history. Like just a few days ago.

President Bush November 8, 2006: "No, you and Hunt and Keil came in the Oval Office and you asked - Hunt asked me the question one week before the campaign, and basically it was: You going to do something about Rumsfeld and the vice president? And my answer was, you know, they're going to stay on.

"And the reason why is I didn't want to inject a major decision about this war in the final days of a campaign.

"And so the only way to answer that question and to get you onto another question was to give you that answer."

The President went on to explain why he thought it was in the best interest of the country to lie to the press, and later concluded by saying, "And it was the right decision to make, by the way." That's the scary part, in my opinion. It wasn't just necessary, which in this instance I think is very questionable, but it was right.

quote:
How can you speak for most people? Do you  rely on some report that states most people are willing to brand Bush a liar?

Perhaps I'm just being naïve, Mike. I don't take a poll before saying most people know the sun came up this morning, if only because I think the sun rising is pretty self-evident. I really can't see anyone honestly thinking Bush has never deliberately lied to the American people to justify what he thought was necessary. That, too, it seems to me, is self-evident.

quote:
How do you claim that those following his leadership know that he would rig an election? Who? What makes you sure that they surely know that? You make these statements as fact.

No, I make the statements as observations, and perhaps as an explanation for why so many found themselves wrongly labeled as felons and were subsequently prevented from voting. If Reb's figures are correct, it's exceedingly difficult not to suspect foul play. My point was that I don't think we should be surprised because the culture that promotes the ends justifying the means starts at the top.

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
75 posted 2006-11-13 02:22 AM


Ron, I have to disagree that there are no WMDs in Iraq.  There is enough depleted uranian to change life forever there for 1000 miles surrounding where it was used.  Now whose weapons those were, however, is another story; maybe that's where the lie is.  
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
76 posted 2006-11-13 11:37 AM


Right Iliana, I suspect Bush must have scattered some uranium around when he made the unannounced trip to Baghdad

And come on now Ron. As a former business owner, I'm sure you had to fire some employees. How many times did you announce your intention to the press or anyone else a few weeks before doing so. It just doesn't work that way. Claiming otherwise is just common business practice as well as common courtesy to the firee. "I did not have sex with that woman." Now there is a lie. Even that one though, I was able to excuse since I suspect most of us would have done the same under similar circumstances.

If you have to be a Bush Basher, at least find something worthy. He surely has committed enough mistakes that actually count. If this is the best you can offer then you are wasting your time.

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
77 posted 2006-11-13 11:46 AM


Not a Poet, I suggest you check with Veterans' Affairs and other veterans' organizations on the depleted uranium thing if you don't believe me.  Maybe you don't listen to the news?  This did make national news although it was immediately hushed up. http://www.gulfwarvets.com/du.htm
Alicat
Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094
Coastal Texas
78 posted 2006-11-13 12:02 PM


Made news then was hushed up?  You mean like the sat recon which showed the fuselage of a Boeing 747 (just fuselage and cabin, no wings or tailsection) just south of Baghdad on a segregated military base where the soldiers were prohibited on pain of death from consorting with the 'guests' who were practicing something with the 747 during the late 90's up until 2001?  I even recall reading the story at MSNBC about a year after 9/11 before the article mysteriously vanished when Iraq was in the crosshairs, which was remarked upon in the Drudge Report.

I know, I know...Matthew Drudge is an uber-neocon and cannot be trusted. Just when I did a google search, his site was one of the few that popped up which referenced the vanished story from major online news sites, as well as asking the question of why it vanished so quickly after the intent to invade Iraq became known.

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
79 posted 2006-11-13 12:06 PM


Ali, check my link above.  I heard about DU over CNN and fox when it was being investigated by the Congress -- then nothing more -- that's what I mean by hushed up.  Read the links provided in that link and then give me your argument.  My info did not come from Drudge.

I have put two different links on my previous post and when I first tested them, they worked.  The last one I put doesn't seem to work now so I am adding this one for you.  Will see if it works.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium  

[This message has been edited by iliana (11-13-2006 12:46 PM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
80 posted 2006-11-13 02:44 PM


quote:
As a former business owner, I'm sure you had to fire some employees. How many times did you announce your intention to the press or anyone else a few weeks before doing so. It just doesn't work that way.

Pete, if the press or anyone else asks me a question I don't want to answer, then I simply don't answer. It's really not a great deal more complicated than that. In this particular instance, I believe Bush's after-the-fact justification for lying would have been a perfectly reasonable before-the-fact reason for refusing to comment.

The trouble, in my mind, is that Bush didn't lie about firing Rumsfeld because it was necessary. He lied because it was easy. I will certainly concede that lying, regretfully, is sometimes necessary. I don't think it should ever be easy.

And just for the record, Pete, Clinton's lies were no better in my estimation and were arguably much worse because he was under oath. I'm not a Bush Basher. The many Bush mistakes to which you allude are, indeed, mistakes, and hey, we all make them. I look for leaders who make fewer mistakes than others, or at least less serious mistakes, but I long ago abandoned any hope of finding leaders free of mistakes. However, in my opinion, character flaws aren't mistakes. They're choices. And I don't trust people who make those kinds of choices.

quote:
There is enough depleted uranian to change life forever there for 1000 miles surrounding where it was used.

A thousand miles, Iliana? Sorry, but it's hard to take someone's concern entirely seriously when they blanket them in blatant exaggeration. The dangers of DU are still speculative, with little agreement from scientific circles, but there's certainly nothing to suggest even its worst predicted effects can magically extend over great distances. All radiation is limited by the inverse square law and DU's impact as a heavy metal is only pertinent with the actual, physical presence of DU.

Not that it matters all that much. Those arguing against the continued use of DU are essentially arguing that we should make safer bullets, perhaps forgetting the purpose to which those bullets will be applied. When someone pumps a couple of thirty-eight rounds into your chest, I'm sorry but it seems a bit inane to me to worry overmuch about lead poisoning. Whether crooks use steel jackets, traditional lead, or armor piercing rounds made out of depleted uranium, you aren't going to be any less -- or any more -- dead. I applaud your concern, Iliana, but the best way to stop killing people is to stop TRYING to kill them. Arguing we should do it less efficiently isn't the right answer.

For those interested in Iliana's concerns, here's what I think is a fairly well balanced report on depleted uranium from the BBC.

rhia_5779
Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334
California
81 posted 2006-11-13 02:56 PM


Have to put this out there. You are talking about class or was originally.

Even the U.S president can't take any awards for class. He could of not lied to the press or lied about WMDS , but he did. I don't call that class.He could have not lied to us about the reason fo taking our country to war, and not told us something about terrorists that he knew wasnt't true.

As you say,Balladeer , your right its all about class. Which apparently Bush has none of, which is sadder than Kerry or Gore not having any. They are insignificant both being failed nominees for presidency who both lost. Bush is our current president. He can't even have class.

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
82 posted 2006-11-13 03:01 PM


Ron:  "I applaud your concern, Iliana, but the best way to stop killing people is to stop TRYING to kill them. Arguing we should do it less efficiently isn't the right answer."

I'm glad you appreciate that, Ron.   And, I totally agree with "but the best way to stop killing people is to stop TRYING to kill them."  I wasn't trying to argue that we should be more efficient.  I was responding initially to your comment about the President's lying when I said I disagreed that there were no weapons of mass destruction.  I think, maybe you'll agree, that DU does constitute WMD.  

As for the 1000 miles, maybe it was 1000 sq. miles.  It was something I read a few weeks ago in a report but I can't find the link now.  I know I shouldn't believe everything I read, but most of what I have researched indicates that if this stuff hits the air, it can travel with the wind that far.  It does not disintegrate; it does stay active for what we could term "forever" (several hundreds of thousands of years, I think).  There hasn't been enough exaggeration on this topic as far as I am concerned.  

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
83 posted 2006-11-13 03:09 PM


"The requested UN working paper was delivered in 2002[8] by Y.K.J. Yeung Sik Yuen in accordance with Sub-Commission on Promotion and Protection of Human Rights resolution 2001/36. He argues that the use of DU in weapons, along with the other weapons listed by the Sub‑Commission, may breach one or more of the following treaties: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the United Nations Convention Against Torture; the Geneva Conventions including Protocol I; the Convention on Conventional Weapons of 1980; and the Chemical Weapons Convention."
From the Wiki link listed earlier.

"The main hazards of uranium are fire, toxicity, and radioactivity. Uranium in larger chunks ignites at 500 deg C, while in finer form it self-ignites and burns spontaneously in the air. Heavy metal uranium forms oxides that are as toxic as arsenic compounds, particularly affecting the renal system. Inhaling and swallowing a high dose of uranium oxides entering nose and throat could pose a serious risk, as could happen in an acute exposure to explosion dust and debris from a uranium weapon. Prolonged exposure in a contaminated environment would lead to similar effects.

As in the toxic hazard, radioactive risks arise by inhaling uranium dust in the air and ingesting it from dust in the mouth, water, or food. Inhaled particles under 2.5 ?m enter deep into the lungs. The body removes insoluble uranium oxides very slowly, halving their amount in 10 to 20 years. Some particles may move from the lung to the lymph nodes and bone. U-238 emits mainly ?-particles - high energy but ranging only a few millimeters in the air, and ?-particles and ?-rays from its products of decay. Hence the radiological insult from a microscopic speck of U-238 oxide inside the body is focused on the surrounding tissue within a radius of about 30 microns. “Impurities” added to DU in the recycling process add other “hot “ micro-particles to the hazards of pure DU.

Uranium radiation hazards are covered-up and misrepresented. The total radiological dose inside a person over years severely exceeds safe limits. Limits set by the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP) derive from empirically invalid assumptions due to secrecy and distortions around the effects of Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, then around Cold War developments of nuclear power and weapons. The ICRP risk model was based on studies of bomb survivors, which overlooked the effects from an internal radiation source and ignored cancers that take decades to appear. Physicists instead of biologists developed the ICRP model before DNA was known, yet it purports to represent cell damage processes. ICRP model spreads a dose over a large mass of tissue instead of considering biophysical and biochemical damage mechanisms at the cellular level. A critique was just published by the European Committee on Radiation Risk (ECRR). It shows ICRP models of risk from internal particles underestimate empirical mortality and morbidity by a factor of 100 to 1000." http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/background.htm

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
84 posted 2006-11-13 03:12 PM


"Have to put this out there. You are talking about class or was originally."

~ Then you went on about Bush and class when that had nothing to do with the original topic. You must not of read the opening posts of this thread.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
85 posted 2006-11-13 03:16 PM


JCP -- we are over 80 posts now and have been off track about 20 posts ago.
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
86 posted 2006-11-13 03:53 PM


Still not quite right Ron. You surely know that an answer of "No comment" to the question "are you going to fire Rumsfeld?" is not a refusal to answer. It damn well is an answer,in fact, the exact same answer as "hell yes."

I fully agree with you on the point of chaqracter. But I think you again refer to that old WMD song. It appears to be true that he was mistaken in accepting the "intelligence" received but there is still nothing other than opinions that he lied about it. The vast majority of those opinions somehow just happen to be from democratic leaders and a few Bush haters.

I'm sorry but I am not ready to accept that any president of this country, democrat or republican, would lie about something so important without stronger evidence than just his opponent's opinions, speculations and innuendo.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
87 posted 2006-11-13 05:09 PM


Uh, you want to talk about WMD again, Mike?  

No, I don't and you don't either unlesss you want to tell me there was a country or a person in the world in 2000 (you included) that DIDN'T thnk Iraq had wmd's.

As far as the Hunt and Keil question, come on, Ron. It would have  been a no-win situation no matter what Bush did. If he had responded  then that Rummy was going, the Democrats, the press, and maybe even Michigan professors would have claimed he only did it to influence the election. The scream of FOUL would have been heard on the moon. If he  denies it then he is just a liar that cannot be trusted in anything. One could even go so far as to say the Democrats should feel a little respect and gratitude that he didn't announce it before the election. It may not have changed it but there would have been SOME influence. God knows the Republicans are mad at him for not doing so. The scary part? The scary part is that you would hold that against him and use it as an example of his dishonesty.

I don't take a poll before saying most people know the sun came up this morning, if only because I think the sun rising is pretty self-evident. I really can't see anyone honestly thinking Bush has never deliberately lied to the American people to justify what he thought was necessary. That, too, it seems to me, is self-evident.

Ok, then. You equate the sun coming up with Bush lying......nothing biased about that thought!   You claim that it is abundantly clear to most people just because it is abundantly clear to you. I must suppose then that Clinton lied about everything he said in office simply by looking in the camera and saying "I never had sex with that woman."   It has become abundantly clear to most people..." Sorry, I don't recognize you as the spokesman for most people. Noah has that honor.

And those following his leadership surely know that, too.

I make the statements as observations


Well, it it an observation or is it a sure thing? They surely know it how? Why? Because you do?  Your observations lead you to one way of thought and you are convinced that others must also come to your conclusions or they are wrong - or blind?  As I said before, I'm surprised. That's not like you.


JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
88 posted 2006-11-13 05:57 PM


"JCP -- we are over 80 posts now and have been off track about 20 posts ago."

~ Why are you telling me that? You must not of read what Rhia posted.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
89 posted 2006-11-13 06:22 PM


I've read the reports on the links and several things confuse me. I've done my best to read them as objectively as possible. On the surface they seem very damaging and disturbing. According to them, Bush basically engineered the election results by eliminating the right to vote for many people, mainly blacks, who would have leaned toward a Democratic vote. He did it by removing the rights of felons to vote and the rights of all people even with the same names as felons, thereby removing the voting rights of thousands of people. In a way it reminds me of the special run by 60 Minutes last month, investigating the lists of suspected terrorists who were thoroughly checked each time they went to fly. Any name on that list was checked, strip-searched, the whole bit....not only the terrorists but anyone with the same NAME as any terrorist. Mike Wallace had a room full of  Dennis Rogers, Mary Johnsons, and all sorts of other normal citizens who were enduring this every time they had to fly. The names on the list had never been updated. There were 6 of the 9/11 hijackers on the list! 60 Minutes grilled the agency mercilessly and rightfully so. It was just faulty bookeeping and laziness.

If everything on those links is accurate, that is very damaging stuff, damaging enough for even impeachment...no question. It portrays a deliberate attempt by the administration to manipulate the election results in an illegal way. That is BIG time!....and that's what confuses me for the following reasons.

First, I could find no documents presented to substantiate the claims of wrongdoing. They were not on those pages or any links from those pages.The quotes concerning what Katherine Harris said was presented in a "he said - she said" scenario.

Second,  I could find nothing that indicated the outcome from these reports. There was only one link which advertized results and it was a dead link. So tell me....in something this big, big enough for impeachment or big enough to overthrow an election...what happened?  I see nothing that came from it at all. You can't claim that Congress just squelched it. Democrats squelching the thing that cost their party the election? I can't see that happening. I didn't read hardly anything about it in the newspapers. Don;t even bother trying to  say the White House muzzled the press. The Miami and Ft. Lauderdale papers are two of the most liberal papers in the country. They were the ones who kicked out the bald eagle and made the hanging chad the symbol of America. No way would they sit on a story like this, especially if it could reverse election results.

Third, when Gore and party began attacking with screams of foul play, this was not one of their rallying cries. They screamed about the hanging chad, the difficulty of reading complicated ballots, times the polls closed in different parts of the state, the ballot design and all sorts of reasons.....but nothing on this one topic which can only be described as a blockbuster. I would have seen it. I didn't. The newspapers were certainly not throttled about all those other topics. Why didn't they use it?

So it all confuses me as to why something that is presented as such a blatant attempt to "fix" an election had little follow-through and was not used by the Democratic party to their advantage to change the election results. The only explanation I can come up with is there must be something more to this story than what is simply found on those links, something which would help explain these discrepancies I mention here.  

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia
90 posted 2006-11-13 07:43 PM


Thanks for reading Mike -- I'm not sure what you're looking at that you didn't find the source material but;

Let's take a look at the official documents (found at the bottom of the Wiki page) from the US Civil Rights Commission.  Keep in mind -- these are reports prepared by the Executive branch to the President, President of the Senate, and the Speaker of the House -- AFTER the election of 2000.

quote:

Excerpts From the Executive Summary of the Report on Voting Irregularities in Florida During the 2000 Presidential Election United States Civil Rights Commission

Pursuant to its authority, and fulfilling its obligations, members of the Commission staff conducted a preliminary investigation and discovered widespread allegations of voter disenfranchisement in Florida in the 2000 presidential election. The Commissioners voted unanimously to conduct an extensive public investigation into these allegations of voting irregularities. Toward that end, the Commission held three days of hearings in Miami and Tallahassee and, using its subpoena powers, collected more than 30 hours of testimony from more than 100 witnesses—all taken under oath—and reviewed more than 118,000 pages of pertinent documents.

After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida. The VRA was enacted in 1965 to enforce the 15th Amendment’s proscription against voting discrimination. It is aimed at both subtle and overt state action that has the effect of denying a citizen the right to vote because of his or her race. Although the VRA originally focused on enfranchising African Americans, the law has been amended several times to also include American Indians, Asian Americans, Alaskan Natives, and people of Spanish heritage. Additionally, the VRA includes a provision that recognizes the need for multilingual assistance for non-English speakers.

The VRA does not require intent to discriminate. Neither does it require proof of a conspiracy. Violations of the VRA can be established by evidence that the action or inaction of responsible officials and other evidence constitute a “totality of the circumstances” that denied citizens their right to vote. For example, if there are differences in voting procedures and voting technologies and the result of those differences is to advantage white voters and disadvantage minority voters, then the laws, the procedures, and the decisions that produced those results, viewed in the context of social and historical factors, can be discriminatory, and a violation of the VRA.

The report does not find that the highest officials of the state conspired to disenfranchise voters. Moreover, even if it was foreseeable that certain actions by officials led to voter disenfranchisement, this alone does not mean that intentional discrimination occurred. Instead, the report concludes that officials ignored the mounting evidence of rising voter registration rates in communities. The state’s highest officials responsible for ensuring efficiency, uniformity, and fairness in the election failed to fulfill their responsibilities and were subsequently unwilling to take responsibility.

The disenfranchisement of Florida’s voters fell most harshly on the shoulders of black voters. The magnitude of the impact can be seen from any of several perspectives:

- Statewide, based upon county-level statistical estimates, black voters were nearly 10 times more likely than nonblack voters to have their ballots rejected.
- Estimates indicate that approximately 14.4 percent of Florida’s black voters cast ballots that were rejected. This compares with approximately 1.6 percent of nonblack Florida voters who did not have their presidential votes counted.
- Statistical analysis shows that the disparity in ballot spoilage rates—i.e., ballots cast but not counted—between black and nonblack voters is not the result of education or literacy differences. This conclusion is supported by Governor Jeb Bush’s Select Task Force on Election Procedures, Standards and Technology, which found that error rates stemming from uneducated, uninformed, or disinterested voters account for less than 1 percent of the problems.
- Approximately 11 percent of Florida voters were African American; however, African Americans cast about 54 percent of the 180,000 spoiled ballots in Florida during the November 2000 election based on estimates derived from county-level data. These statewide estimates were corroborated by the results in several counties based on actual precinct data.

The Commission calls upon the attorney general of the United States to immediately begin the litigation process to determine liability under the VRA and appropriate remedies. The Commission is a fact-finding body, authorized to investigate allegations of voting discrimination, fraud, and other irregularities.

However, it does not adjudicate violations of the law, hold trials, or determine civil or criminal liability. It is within the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of Justice and Florida law enforcement officials to seek appropriate sanctions and remedies. In addition to calling on the attorney general to initiate the litigation process on this issue, the Commission requests this action on a number of other issues as well, such as Florida’s handling of its voter roll purge and its failure to accommodate voters with disabilities and limited English proficiency

Missing Leadership

Florida’s governor insisted that he had no specific role in election operations and pointed to his secretary of state as the responsible official. After the election, however, the governor exercised leadership and responsibility in electoral matters in the commendable action of appointing a task force to make recommendations to fix the problems that occurred. The secretary of state, the state’s chief elections officer, denied any responsibility for the problems in the election, claiming only a “ministerial” role, her clear statutory obligations notwithstanding. Rather, she asserted that county election officials are responsible for the conduct of the election, describing her role in the policies and decisions affecting the actual voting operations as limited. However, her claims of no responsibility sharply contrast to her actions in the immediate aftermath of Election Day, when she asserted ultimate authority in determining the outcome of the vote count. On the local level, supervisors of elections in the counties that experienced the worst problems failed to prepare adequately and demand necessary resources.

This overall lack of leadership in protecting voting rights was largely responsible for the broad array of problems in Florida during the 2000 election. Furthermore, state officials ignored the pleas of some supervisors of elections for guidance and help. Especially at the highest levels, officials must take responsibility for leading on matters for which they have authority and, to the extent they do not have sole authority, to take the initiative for working with other key officials. Specific examples of the areas in which Florida officials need to improve are discussed in other parts of the Executive Summary and throughout the report. However, the need for key officials to exercise leadership in protecting the right to vote is imperative. This was not a responsibility that officials were willing to accept during the 2000 election

Purging Former Felons from the Voter Rolls

Individuals not legally entitled to vote should not be allowed to vote. Appropriate efforts to eliminate fraudulent voting strengthen the rights of legitimate voters. In fact, there are already laws in place in Florida that make it a crime to vote unlawfully. However, poorly designed efforts to eliminate fraud, as well as sloppy and irresponsible implementation of those efforts, disenfranchise legitimate voters and can be a violation of the VRA. Florida’s overzealous efforts to purge voters from the rolls, conducted under the guise of an anti-fraud campaign, resulted in the inexcusable and patently unjust removal of disproportionate numbers of African American voters from Florida’s voter registration rolls for the November 2000 election.

The purge system in Florida proceeded on the premise of guilty until proven innocent. In 1998, the Florida legislature enacted a statute that required the Division of Elections to contract with a private entity to purge its voter file of deceased persons, duplicate registrants, individuals declared mentally incompetent, and convicted felons without civil rights restoration, i.e., remove ineligible voter registrants from voter registration rolls. This purge process became known as list maintenance. Once on the list, the process places the burden on the eligible voter to justify remaining on the voter rolls. The ubiquitous errors and dearth of effective controls in the state’s list maintenance system resulted in the exclusion of voters lawfully entitled and properly registered to vote.

African American voters were placed on purge lists more often and more erroneously than Hispanic or white voters. For instance, in the state’s largest county, Miami-Dade, more than 65 percent of the names on the purge list were African Americans, who represented only 20.4 percent of the population. Hispanics were 57.4 percent of the population, but only 16.6 percent of the purge list; whites were 77.6 percent of the population but 17.6 percent of those purged.

The purposeful use of erroneous listings to promote the state’s purging priorities and the permanent disenfranchisement of discharged felons raise important questions of fundamental fairness. The state’s aggressive purging laws, policies, and practices disproportionately affect African Americans, who are disproportionately charged, convicted, and sentenced in the criminal justice system. The Commission questions Florida’s onerous and infrequently rendered clemency process. Former offenders who have paid their debt to society should have citizenship rights restored, which is already done in 36 states. Further, the report expresses disappointment that the recently enacted legislation failed to address the issue of automatic restoration of voting rights for former felons and asks that the governor recommend reform in this area of state law.
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm




quote:

Excerpts from Chapter 9: Findings and Recommendations

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights conducted an extensive public investigation of allegations of voting irregularities during the 2000 presidential election in Florida. The investigation, utilizing the Commission’s subpoena power, included three days of hearings, more than 30 hours of testimony, 100 witnesses, and a systematic review of more than 118,000 pages of pertinent documents.[2]

Perhaps the most dramatic undercount in Florida’s election was the uncast ballots of countless eligible voters who were turned away at the polls or wrongfully purged from voter registration rolls.

While statistical data, reinforced by credible anecdotal evidence, point to widespread disenfranchisement and denial of voting rights, it is impossible to determine the extent of the disenfranchisement or to provide an adequate remedy to the persons whose voices were silenced in this historic election by a pattern and practice of injustice, ineptitude, and inefficiency.

Despite the closeness of the election, it was widespread voter disenfranchisement, not the dead-heat contest, that was the extraordinary feature in the Florida election. The disenfranchisement was not isolated or episodic. And state officials failed to fulfill their duties in a manner that would prevent this disenfranchisement.

The Commission does not adjudicate violations of the law, hold trials, or determine civil or criminal liability. Therefore, the recommendations that follow urge the U.S. Department of Justice and Florida officials to institute formal investigations based on the facts in this report to determine liability and to seek appropriate remedies.

The Commission is charged to “investigate allegations in writing under oath or affirmation relating to deprivations—(A) because of color, race, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin; or (B) as a result of any pattern or practice of fraud; of the right of citizens of the United States to vote and have votes counted. . . .”[3] The Commission is also charged with reporting its findings to the President and Congress as appropriate.[4] The uncontroverted evidence leads the Commission to the following findings and recommendations

-During Florida’s 2000 presidential election, restrictive statutory provisions, wide-ranging errors, and inadequate resources in the Florida election process denied countless Floridians of their right to vote.

-This disenfranchisement of Florida voters fell most harshly on the shoulders of African Americans. Statewide, based on county-level statistical estimates, African American voters were nearly 10 times more likely than white voters to have their ballots rejected in the November 2000 election

-The state of Florida’s statutorily mandated purge list, compiled by a private firm, was provided to county supervisors of elections with names that were inexact matches. The data provided demonstrated that this list had at least a 14.1 percent error rate.

-African Americans had a significantly greater chance of being listed on Florida’s mandated purge list. The probability of names of African Americans appearing on the list in error was significantly greater than the likelihood of the names of whites being erroneously included on the purge list.  

-The state of Florida’s use of this purge list, combined with the state law that places the burden on voters to remove themselves from the list, resulted in denying countless African Americans the right to vote.

-Florida’s statutory scheme for elections provides responsibility without accountability and contributed significantly to the disenfranchisement of Florida voters.

-The governor chose not to exercise his authority to appoint special officers to investigate alleged election law violations in response to the allegations of impropriety in the 2000 presidential election.

-The secretary of state chose to exercise authority to ensure the vote count was discontinued and that the vote was canvassed after the election, but did little to ensure that Floridians would be able to get to the polls and be permitted to vote. The secretary’s office did little to ensure that the state was prepared for the election, adequate resources were available to address problems arising on Election Day, Florida voters received adequate education on voting processes, election precincts were appropriately staffed, and election workers received needed education and training.

-The secretary of state delegated her statutory obligation before and during the 2000 presidential election, to “[o]btain and maintain uniformity in the application, operation and interpretation of the election laws” (as it relates to ensuring that legal voters would be permitted to vote) to the degree that her duty was exercised on such a discretionary basis as to be arbitrary.
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/ch9.htm



Read the entire report http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/main.htm

Especially Chapter 5 http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/ch5.htm



Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
91 posted 2006-11-14 01:52 PM


Thanks for the links, LR. It's some very interesting reading. I think the report could have been cut down in size about 80% since they  keep going over the same points and information throughout......but governmant documents tend to do that   It still doesn't answer the questions I have though.  It doesn't tell me why action was not taken. For example:

This section of the statute was passed in response to a 1997 Miami mayoral election where it was challenged in court and went up through the court system in the state of Florida. The gentleman who originally won that mayor’s race was turned out of office. There was a grand jury investigation. There was a Senate select committee appointed to investigate that election. There was [an] allegation and it was eventually proven that a large number of people who were deceased cast ballots—well, someone cast ballots in the name of some people who were deceased in that election. People who were convicted felons who had lost their right to vote under the Florida Constitution cast ballots in that election, and people who were also registered in another municipality or another county within that area cast ballots in the city of Miami mayor’s race.

In that case, the mayor was kicked out because many of these same points were investigated and brought to light.  What happened with the Senatorial investigation of 2000? I guess this is it:


The report does not find that the highest officials of the state conspired to disenfranchise voters. Moreover, even if it was foreseeable that certain actions by officials led to voter disenfranchisement, this alone does not mean that intentional discrimination occurred. Instead, the report concludes that officials ignored the mounting evidence of rising voter registration rates in communities. The state’s highest officials responsible for ensuring efficiency, uniformity, and fairness in the election failed to fulfill their responsibilities and were subsequently unwilling to take responsibility.

Laziness? Yes. Unprofessionalism? Yes. Conspiracy? No.

As  a side note, another part that I found to be interesting, especially with time spent in law enforcement, was this:

The purposeful use of erroneous listings to promote the state’s purging priorities and the permanent disenfranchisement of discharged felons raise important questions of fundamental fairness. The state’s aggressive purging laws, policies, and practices disproportionately affect African Americans, who are disproportionately charged, convicted, and sentenced in the criminal justice system.

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, allow me to gurgle disproportionately??? The figures rest with the fact that blacks commit more crimes in Florida. That's a matter of record. That's why the figures would have a higher percentage for blacks.....no rocket science there.  What should we do to make it more proportionate to satisfy the commission? Ok, fellow officers, we have arrested 55 blacks this week and 50 whites, so today do not arrest any more blacks until the numbers are equal so the figures are not disproportionate.   Is that the solution to satisfy them?

In addition or, in conclusion. the main crux of this situation seems to have it's feet in 1998, two years before Bush ran for office. How then would you lay it at his doorstep? I also still ask..."Why didn;t the Democrats use it...launch a war with it to fight the election results instead of pinning their hopes on a hanging chad? How would they lay it on a Bush conspiracy when the committee reported they found none? Where was Gore to scream this to the rafters?

I see a report that certainly points out flaws that need to be corrected  and testimonies from 100 citizens who claim their rights were violated but I see nothing which would indicate a White House or Bush conspiracy that scares Ron into believing that this administration has us going to hell in a handbasket  because of George Bush.


Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia
92 posted 2006-11-14 02:56 PM


I don't have a problem with you demonstrating the conviction rates by ethnicity -- I think it's a point to explore -- and then compare that figure to the ratio of purged voters.  But, the point would be that persons who had no relation to the list were prevented from voting.

Now, the salient question -- why were there no investigations, lawsuits, etc...

quote:

The Commission calls upon the attorney general of the United States to immediately begin the litigation process to determine liability under the VRA and appropriate remedies. The Commission is a fact-finding body, authorized to investigate allegations of voting discrimination, fraud, and other irregularities.

However, it does not adjudicate violations of the law, hold trials, or determine civil or criminal liability. It is within the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of Justice and Florida law enforcement officials to seek appropriate sanctions and remedies. In addition to calling on the attorney general to initiate the litigation process on this issue, the Commission requests this action on a number of other issues as well, such as Florida’s handling of its voter roll purge and its failure to accommodate voters with disabilities and limited English proficiency



Who would the AG have been?  Oh, yes.  John Ashcroft.  Who worked for.. um... who is that guy again?

Do you begin to see the magnitude of the difficulty?

Of course we could rely on the Republican controlled House and Senate to follow through right?

There is an old saying though -- A lie can go around the world while the truth is still lacing up its' boots -- this story was just gaining momentum when something happened in New York that changed all of the priorities around the world.

The commission didn't have the investigative legs to find the conspiracy -- but -- if you objectively read Chapter 5 it becomes pretty plain.  As they pointed out though -- they didn't have to SHOW a conspiracy -- they just needed to show that it happened to have causeable action -- something Ashcroft's JD didn't see fit to execute... for SOME reason

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
93 posted 2006-11-14 02:57 PM


Excellent retort, Mike.

What still gets me is all of those reports of alleged disfranchisement by the Republicans, yet did not disfranchisement really occur when Gore sent his team of lawyers to get the military absentee ballots disallowed because of NO FAULT to the service men and women?

Hypocracy 101

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
94 posted 2006-11-14 04:41 PM


I think you mean hypocrisy.  

You know, I tend to spell it with another 'h' for some reason.

But let me get this straight:

Nobody has challenged the recent election except when they did.

Disenfranchisement is bad, but it's okay sometimes.

Bush doesn't lie. Except when he does.

There was no conspiracy to steal the 2000 election except that the media, intentionally, confused the time zones in Florida.

Liberals bad.

We must all be bipartisan because the dems can never be trusted.

Bush didn't plot to steal the 2000 election so that makes everything okay.

And because that didn't happen that makes it okay that there were no further investigations because, uh, what were we talking about again?

Oh, and just for fun, will everybody stop this pre-911 thinking. It's so reality biased.  

Man, politics, like you know, is really complex.  

But, seriously, what is the proper response to an ad hominem tu quoque argument?

1. Okay, let's find out what happened.

2. Shut up.


JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
95 posted 2006-11-14 05:48 PM


I think you mean hypocrisy.

~ I think I know what I mean, but thanks for your concern.

hypocracy n. hypocratic, hypocrat [ < hypocrisy and -cracy ] a government characterized by hypocrisy

You know, I tend to spell it with another 'h' for some reason.

~ Hypocracy?

But let me get this straight:

~ I'll be back later for that.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
96 posted 2006-11-14 06:45 PM


Okay, you're joking now.

quote:
What still gets me is all of those reports of alleged disfranchisement by the Republicans, yet did not disfranchisement really occur when Gore sent his team of lawyers to get the military absentee ballots disallowed because of NO FAULT to the service men and women?


a hypocritical government 101

Does that even make sense?

But alrighty, I'll bite, what dictionary did you use for that nugget?


JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
97 posted 2006-11-14 07:42 PM


~ No, I am not joking, and do your own research. If you can't "get it," it is certainly not my fault.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
98 posted 2006-11-14 08:34 PM


I've tried four different dictionaries (3 on the computer) and I'm always redirected to hypocrisy:

quote:
hypocrisy
One entry found for hypocrisy.


Main Entry: hy·poc·ri·sy
Pronunciation: hi-'pä-kr&-sE also hI-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English ypocrisie, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrisis, from Greek hypokrisis act of playing a part on the stage, hypocrisy, from hypokrinesthai to answer, act on the stage, from hypo- + krinein to decide -- more at CERTAIN
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2 : an act or instance of hypocrisy



Oh well, I guess I'll never 'get it'.

I can live with that.

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
99 posted 2006-11-14 09:42 PM


~ Seriously, did you ever think to just google the word, hypocracy?

[This message has been edited by Ron (11-14-2006 10:16 PM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
100 posted 2006-11-14 10:36 PM


Google and Yahoo.

They both asked me if I meant hypocrisy.

Looked at some of the sites with the word (some had both spellings) but they all seemed to be talking about the same thing.

I never thought it was that a big a deal until you offered the definition, until you claimed it was a different word and not a misspelling (You could have argued that it was an alternate spelling, you know.)


JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
101 posted 2006-11-14 10:46 PM


~ I learned of the word quite some time ago when brought to my attention, and found it very quickly using the Yahoo search engine.

[This message has been edited by Ron (11-15-2006 06:16 AM).]

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
102 posted 2006-11-14 10:51 PM


~ And... try it again.  
iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
103 posted 2006-11-14 11:17 PM


JCP, you are too much!  I found many links with hypocracy --- all spelled wrong...lol.  If you are using poetic license and analogizing it with demoCRACY, then that's all well and good, but that has nothing to do with being a good debator.  A good debator always substantiates his statements with factual information and references including sources.  
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia
104 posted 2006-11-15 12:52 PM


Really Brad?  Another H?

HypocHrisy? -- When Christopher is being sarcastic?

Hypocriseh?  -- When Thurston Howell says it?  

HypocrAcy -- a hybridization of Hypocrisy and Piracy -- to hijack a thread while accusing others of being off topic...

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
105 posted 2006-11-15 01:15 AM



JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
106 posted 2006-11-15 06:34 PM


http://www.langmaker.com/db/Hypocracy

I don't know about you all, but I have heard the term hypoCRACY used many times to describe a hypocritical government. Whether it is in the dictionary or not, that doesn't matter to me. Homer Simpson's "DU-OH" took quite a while to make it to the dictionary after years of usage.



"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

[This message has been edited by Alicat (11-15-2006 07:44 PM).]

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
107 posted 2006-11-15 08:50 PM


Oh, you were using poetic license, I see.  

Langmaker.com makes the following stipulation:  "Some of the neologisms are of recent coinage but are in widespread use, though you won't find them in a dictionary (e.g., moonbat), while others are used by just a few people (e.g., humorang). Please don't mistake this site for being an accurate dictionary; by design, it's not, but is rather a place to celebrate word coinings."

So, JCP, did you make this one up and submit it to that website?  Just curious.  

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
108 posted 2006-11-15 09:58 PM


(sigh) Liberal person, read what I written, that will answer your question. No wonder why conservatives are much better thinkers.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
109 posted 2006-11-15 10:08 PM


JCP -- You call me liberal when you are the one making up or using "coined" words? Maybe you have redefined that word, too?     Or, maybe you've taken a que from GWB and don't want to admit it when you've made an error?  
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa
110 posted 2006-11-15 10:44 PM


~ How can you redefine a word that doesn't exist? Seriously, you missed the point, entirely. And the fact is, it is so simple, the entire exchange, that is shouldn't even exist.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

iliana
Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434
USA
111 posted 2006-11-16 12:30 PM


"How can you redefine a word that doesn't exist?"

Exactly.

I acknowledged your play on words, JCP, so tell me, what did I miss?

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
112 posted 2006-11-16 07:12 AM


quote:
And the fact is, it is so simple, the entire exchange, that is shouldn't even exist.

You're right, it shouldn't.

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