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Anorexic Student Denied Valedictorian Title
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Anorexic Student Denied Valedictorian Title |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7884243/?GT1=6542 I was valedictorian at Denver Academy and I absolutely am saddened and sickened by how poor Karen has been treated here. She obviously put all her heart these last four years into her academics, so she deserves Valedictorian recognition, NOT "Honorary Valedictorian". Look, it is expected for students to have consistent, exemplary attendance records to fulfill the utmost quality of a child's education. But it is clear she had a eating disorder, that should be respected, it is completely understandable, and they should give her the benefit of the doubt for the absences that resulted from treatment. Besides, if they already know her well for the quality of her work and everything, they should know quite well had she been there those days she was getting treatment she would unquestionably be producing the same effort, dedication and heart into her work. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Michelle_loves_Mike
since 2003-12-20
Posts 1189Pennsylvania |
I dig where you are coming from, and, I know what I say will either be picked apart word for word, or ignored completely,,,but,,,,my son, aged 9, is in a treatment facility as I write this, and they are not counting the missed days from school as approved. Now, granted, bout all it kills for 4th grade is a perfect attendance award....it still applies to all grades, no matter why you miss the days, they are days missed, and they don't take the why into concideration. School has become a zero tolerance place over the years, due to, (I hate to use the term bad apple, but it's all that is coming to mind)bad apples spoiling things over the years. I mean,,,be it missing days from getting help, or getting stoned,,,,,bringing a machette to class or a nail file,,,,,things have grown almost rediculous, and they no longer "judge" the why on an individual basis. It all gets lumped into a labled group, and all hands are washed of it, "we have made it so". I do hope this made a little sense, and that someone actually sees what I was trying to say. The girl was hosed, short and sweet. Sends a great message in a way...."Just hide the pain, asking for help will get you punished". And yes,,that was a whole bucket of sarcasm on that last statement. Regaurdless, and I'll hush my ramble after this, I'm glad she got the help she needed, at least she will now get to the future she was striving for, one title short, but, hopefully stronger from the experience. If home is where the heart is,,,,,I guess the corner bar is where the mind wanders off to |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I am sympathetic Noah but can't help but note that the same drive for perfection that fueled her diligence in studies is prolly the source of her illness. (Not a judgement, sweet Noah, but an observation.) so hugs and peace  |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
"She obviously put all her heart these last four years into her academics..." I would agree she probably put all her efforts into receiving "A" grades. As to whether she put her heart into her education is another question which I have no idea the answer. Receiving A's and succeeding at one's eduation are not synonymous. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Learned until proven unlearned. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Quite a dilemma, Noah. I can certainly understand your feelings on this matter and I sympathize with her in all sincerity. One of the problems today, be it schools, courtrooms or even the government, things get painted with a very broad brush. Rules are called rules. Deviations from the rules are not tolerated well. A killer not Mirandized walks. I could probably go through the Alley and find several instances where you and others have defended actions, the defense involving rules. I do not agree with this broad brush approach but it exists and one cannot cite rules when they are favorable and claim they are unfair when not favorable. She has my sympathy but, if she really is that intelligent, she won't let it matter in her life. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I'm gonna be a hardass here. She made choices, she gets the consequences. She chose to be 'thinner'. However one may argue, she chose anorexia. As far as I know, there has never been one born with anorexia. It's a choice. And there are some choices which quickly become addictions. But they too are choices on whether or not to continue, although the choices may become harder. She chose. Just as she chose to excel scholasticly, she chose to refuse nourishment, and she chose psychological help. She chose. As she chose, she can accept the consequences for her actions, for her choosing. She doesn't get Valedictorian? So what? She made her choices; she can deal with her consequences. I am proud of her though. She did seek help to the detriment of her attendance record. She knew the rules of her school, but chose to look after herself first. And though I got a feeling her words about the title not being important, she lies. It is important to those who compete, who desire praise. And there's not a person I've met who doesn't yearn for some sort of praise, of acclaim, of accomplishment. Saying it doesn't matter is merely rationalization to attempt to soothe the hurt. Keep in mind, the only one to hurt herself was herself. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Alicat, I understand the point you are making here, and it is a valid point indeed. But there is a line between those who choose to just resort to this unhealthy lifestyle (Lindsay Lohan, the Olsen Twins) and those who live with this sort of disorder. How can those diagnosed under the latter with this sort of disorder help but face these difficulties and appear very thin in their everyday lives in many cases? And I also am not forgetting that, especially in much larger high schools, the faculties have their own sort of politics in deciding their valedictorians and salutatorians. I guess perhaps in instances where you have twenty students with the same peak GPA average in a large high school competing for the honors, politics are necessary and there has to be further consideration. Maybe you can take into account their extracurricular activity records, side projects, additional honors, student body vote, etc. Who knows, I guess there isn't official word yet how close or further away the runner-up to Karen was academically. Still, Karen obviosuly has an exemplary work ethic and I believe by the looks of it she deserves the honor, and she deserves the benefit of the doubt on her break of absence during part of her junior year. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Unlike some disorders, anorexia stems from choices, as does bulimia. Although the impetus may be peer pressure, low self esteem, familial abuse, or something else, it's still up to the individual to choose. For her choices in destroying her body, she doesn't get my sympathies. That she is attempting to pay the debt of her consequences, she does. I do hope that makes sense to you, as it does to me. I've had friends who had eating disorders, and I've had friends with other disorders, like multiple sclerosis. They are not equal disorders. One is chosen, the other is not. And every choice or action has a consequence, be it good, bad, or neutral. Some consequences are immediate, like touching a hot stove, while others take longer, like the calls I get regarding my student loans. My choices, my consequences. Her choices, her consequences. Some things are that simple. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Nobody is born bipolar, either... that doesn't mean they choose the illness. Anorexic people have different brain structures than people without anorexia, and it still hasn't been fully explained. It's a question of did the chicken or the egg come first... doctors don't know if the altered brain structure causes the disease, or vice versa. Regardless, most people don't wake up and decide to be anorexic. A healthy decision to lose weight may have spiraled out of her control, leading to a very real and very dangerous disorder. Whether or not that means she should still get to be valedictorian... I dunno. Shouldn't the school have specific policies for medical leaves of absence? And if she was still doing her schoolwork while in the hospital, wouldn't she technically have to have been enrolled for it to be accepted? I agree with Balladeer about the broad stroked thing- an established student being hospitalized is not nearly the same thing as a transfer student. |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
Anorexia is a mental disease, and a valid one at that. Their have been numerous studies linking eating disorders with heredity, obsessive compulsive disorder and a vast array of other REAL diseases. It's unfair to say that it was all "choice", when her mind and body were both out of her control. The reason people with eating disorders seek help is because someone eventually does notice and pushes them to do so. A lot of girls that go through treatment STILL end up doing the same things after they're released. I refuse to believe that it's merely a choice, and not some sort of chemical imbalance. Pretty much every emotional/mental illness is caused by a malfunction in the brain..Why is this exempt? It's just sad to me that we look at it as a simple "angsty" behaviour instead of a real problem. Something tells me that wanting to weigh 70 pounds is more than just a choice. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I agree that it's not necessarily a choice and a person shouldn't be "punished" for something outside of their control; they should be helped. Still, I feel about this subject much as I feel about granting a job to someone because they fit a minority rather than their ability to do the job. EOE (Equal Opportunity Employment), just like this situation shouldn't be based on whether a person is a minority or not or whether they have a disease or not, it should be based on who's more qualified for a job or who actually met the requirements to be Valedictorian. Fact is, it appears to me, that she almost met the requirements. Almost isn't quite. I think she shouldn't be Valedictorian just because she has a valid disease when someone else actually met the requirements, any more than I should get a job just because I'm a minority even though someone else who isn't a minority is more qualified. egowhores.com - really love yourself. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Actually, I think its an Americans with Disabilities Act or perhaps a Rehabilitation Act issue. The question is whether, because of her anorexia, the girl qualifies as a protected class and is therefore entitled to reasonable accommodations for her disorder. By the way ... school codes have specific provisions regarding discipline, but students with disabilities are protected by Federal law requiring a determination as to whether the problem behavior was a manifestation of the student's disability and, if so, to determine the function of the behavior and develop a plan for replacing the behavior with a more positive one. If I were this child's parents, I'd be talking with my lawyer. I have no problem considering anorexia a disability as defined by the act and I think waiving the attendance requirements while she recovered is a reasonable accommodation. If she does the work, she deserves the honor. Jim P.S. What if she had leukemia? Would she then have been barred from being honored as valedictorian? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
so a person who requires accomodation should be chosen over one who does not? |
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Capricious Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 89California, USA |
I think the real question is this: with regard to an academic award such as Valedictorian, should attendance be weighed equally with scholastic acheivement? I would say no. To those who would say "rules are rules," I would say "there is always an exception," and as was pointed out before her case is not one that the rule in question was created to prevent. It isn't as though she knew she had the grades in the bag and decided to piss away the rest of the school year in Mexico sipping margaritas. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
...and to those who say "There are always exception" I would say you are opening a Pandora's box. What happens when you start invoking the exceptions? What happens when common sense collides with law? Do you say "Well, that may be how the law is written but....."? What happens then? Do we throw OJ in jail because everyone with half a brain, except for 12 jurors, knows he's guilty? Believe me, I'd like the common sense side to win out, too, but then you have to decide "Whose common sense?" and Pandora wins again. If there are rules in place you have to follow them or they are worthless. The school didn't spring this on the student or parents - they were reminded well in advance and their comment was that they were hoping the rules wouldn't be enforced...duh, then why have rules? Personally I think it was a kind gesture on the school's part to create a special award just for her, acknowledging her achievement. The student came up with the right answer... More important than the trophy, the teen says, her self-esteem is intact. “That’s more important than any achievement or any title you could ever get,” Scherr said. “I’m thankful I’ve learned that at this point in my life, at 18 years old.” A young woman who says she doesn’t need a prize to appreciate all she’s accomplished, inside and outside the classroom. That says it all..... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
if the rules have exceptions, then where is the credit for others not breaking them? how can you justify one having precedence over the other, when the first followed the rules and another didn't? that there is an "excusable" reason for not abiding by those rules doesn't negate that they are there to be followed and weren't. I think it's right that she not be awarded the title because she didn't meet the pre-defined requirements. the rest is just rhetoric. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't see how it stands that she broke a rule. How can you break something yourself, when you never had a choice? If someone pushes someone so forcefully at window that it breaks, should the person that is pushed at the window be judged as "guilty" of breaking the window? And treated the the same as the person that pushed him, and hurt him in the act? I don't believe so. Why should she be treated guilty of breaking a rule, and neglecting schooltime in any way, when it was her sickness that enforced her to leave? [This message has been edited by Essorant (05-25-2005 02:06 AM).] |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I respect very much that Karen is modest about her achievements. I too was very modest after I was valedictorian at Denver Academy. The fact is though, my parents are ecstatic about me being one. They immediately got my plaque and certificate and put in in a scrapbook. It isn't just about Karen herself, it's about her loved ones and such. Of course I can't speak for them all, and I know regardless of artifacts, they're just proud of her deep down and she knows they are, but I'm sure they'd think it rather nice to have something special they could put into her scrapbook like that to highlight and cap off a wonderful high school experience. There's just some sentimental value to the honor too. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Balladeer & Chris: Ess is right. First, there is a vast difference between criminal law and school codes. Most school rules are written with the general student population in mind - those who are capable of abiding by the school rules volitionally. To argue that a student with a disability should be discounted from an honor solely on the basis of non-compliance with a non-academic school rule through no fault of their own is wrong-minded. In passing her over for consideration for valedictorian, the school has missed an opportunity to celebrate a student who has overcome the debilitating effects of a dangerous disorder and acheived academic excellence in spite of the strikes against her. If honoring her dignity and perseverence is opening a Pandora's Box (I don't think it is), then I say open the box. If a child in a wheel chair doesn't get an "A" in gym because he or she couldn't complete a mile in 10 minutes or less and misses the opportunity for academic honors because of it, the failure is systemic, not the child's. When education fails to acknowledge and accommodate the individual strengths an needs of students, I believe it has failed in its mission to teach. There is a difference between an exception and an accommodation. The first waives a rule with or without good cause. The second takes the individual into account, and makes adjustments to the general standards as needed in order to preserve the individual's dignity. If you are against reasonable accommodations, do I think you are against preserving a child's dignity? Yes. Jim |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I believe in many cases, exceptions have been seriously evoked, but to keep within the conversation of this thread...yes, anorexia is a disease and a personal choice...saying scientists have linked it to some kind of brain alteration, to me is simply an excuse...if one believes in God, then would you honestly believe that he would make is a disease....I really wish, truly and from my heart, this country would stop being so light footed and start generating blame from choices of the individuals... I'm not taking a stance here on if she should be validictorian or not, but what I do believe is this...a valedictorian is a leader, one who persists to accomplish truth and honor...who serves as example to others...role model of sorts... I'm sorry, but I must agree, this is and was a choice on her part, sorry to say, and she must be willing to get help, this is a result of some self esteem deficiancy...perhaps a problem childhood, abuse, etc. Perhaps the only way she feels successful, not to mention, the only thing in her life, she may have control over? I dunno, but, darn it, I say with respect...not meaning any insult or harm to the individual involved...when are we going to realize, and stop looking for reasons, and just deal with the consequences of the problem, not with medication, but with real honest ta goodness self examination and realize, we're not just hurting ourselves, but everyone who is connected to us. Sincerely Lee J. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
LeeJ: Thanks for your post. I think it cut straight to the real issue and revealed the fallacious starting point of those who believe she is undeserving of the honor, which is at best naive and at worst bigotted. quote: First let's look at the idea that anorexia is a disease AND a choice. By disease, I suspect you mean disorder, and I agree with you on that point. "Choice," however, is far too reductionistic to be credible, for it connotes that the disorder is brought on by a deliberate act of volition - a decision to be thin. Or is it really about being thin? Perhaps it is a "choice" to become beautiful - like the ubiquitous media images of thin women with disproportionately large breasts, of Paris Hilton seductively leaning over an exotic car while holding a 1/2 pound hamburger or the model in translucent clothing pawning Sky Vodka. First, I would dispute your seeming assumption that adolescents are able to contextualize mass media images of beauty and make healthy, rational decisions to accept their natural physical attributes in spite of the sexy images of the "ideal woman" that we find on every other page of any given teen magazine. Behavior isn't a result of choice alone, but proceeds from a complex interaction of cognition, body, and environment. I think you will discount the notion that there is a physiological component to anorexia (in your own words, "...saying scientists have linked it to some kind of brain alteration, to me is simply an excuse..."), though I believe you do so without giving the matter sufficient thought. But what of environment? What of those media ads and swimsuit issues? What of the OC? What part do they play in forming the unrealistic notion of beauty that drives those who suffer from the mental illness of anorexia to starve themselves to death? Anorexia is a mental illness and I would venture to say that nobody chooses to be mentally ill. quote: And I really wish, truly and from my heart, that this country will stop treating mental illness and neurological disorders flippantly, blaming the victim in a way that treads heavy-footed to the drum of dehumanization. This girl overcame a potentially deadly condition while maintaining grades that, had she not been forced to choose recovery over classroom attendance, would have earned her the honor of valedictorian. This tells me that she is a determined and driven person who will likely overcome adversity later in life while her peers struggle under the weight. What better role model is there than that? quote: And I ask when are we going to stop focusing myopically on the consequences of unwanted behavior and begin trying to discern what that behavior is communicating to us? To focus on consequences to the exclusion of causes is harmful, and not likely to yield any meaningful results. While I respect your obvious sensitivity, I cannot respect an opinion that is so poorly formed and obviously wrong. Jim |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Jim Well, I for one respect your opinion, regardless if I agree or not and you've made some points well taken, on the other hand I was there, Jim, the bathing suit craze, the stimulus from magazines, etc...and thin was always in...since I was a child...but, again...closed minded or not...if I owned esteem and self respect, the last thing on my mind would be to starve myself and by the way, I've always possessed a weight problem...up and down, but realized at a young age, dicipline and exercise paid off. But to literally starve myself down to skeletal? I don't mean to sound unsympathetic...positively I'm so sorry these children and woman feel so desprately in need of starving themselves to death.... But, it's like anything else, lack of education, obsession, perhaps the blindness of not even realizing how really bad they do look...obviously, a choice to eat or not to eat, but most of all, largely a lack of self esteem, not liking themselves and being comfortable with who they are, let alone, the significance of their lives, and how this affects so many others who love them. I'm all in favor of discussion, teach me Jim...cuz I'm open, but don't go completely left or right with me on this subject...and I'll admit, perhaps there are things about this I don't know, but hopefully I never came across as idiodic as you projected... thats why I participated in this forum and this particular subject, doesn't mean my opinion is written in stone... You had lots of good solid points...but please, I believe that's why this country is in the desprate need of understanding today, due to comments like the one you ended your point well taken in. I'm not hurt, nor intimidated, but lets talk about this without throwing stone...teach me...with kind words...and a little bit more understanding... I'm from the old school...and by darn, I've seen to many excuses made for violation to the mind body and soul...addictions...doesn't mean I'm senseless and cruel, just means, perhaps I need a little more guidence on the subject Sincerely Lee J. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
alright, Jim, based on your premise, who chooses and how do you choose who should be awarded exceptions? should the rules be different for a child of a single-parent family? should rules be different for someone who is overweight? should rules be different for someone of a different religion, race, sex? there are differences in all of these that are not (with the exception of religion... perhaps) by choice, but rather by environment and mental pre-dispositions; genetics, maybe. rules have to exist and have to be followed, without exception, or they become worthless. open the door for one exception and then you will have to start opening it for others. i'm confident that if you and i were to sit down, we could list an endless parade of various rules that we feel should maitain exceptions for _fill in the blank_ condition/situation/predisposition. if we were then able to enact on those exceptions, we'd find that not only would we be making a good portion of the whole unhappy, but we'd also be missing a bunch of exceptions that we'd never even considered. rules are meant to apply to a population whole, not parts. does that mean i don't believe this young lady "deserves" to be Valedictorian? no, as you pointed out, she is obviously a driven, capable and strong-willed individual whom, i agree, could serve as a much better role model than many other choices available. that doesn't mean i think the rules should be broken, or even bent to accomodate for her "situation." let me ask you: would you feel the same if, instead of anorexic, she were a sexual predator that had been seeking help, but managed to overcome and otherwise meet the requirements sae for the days in treatment? egowhores.com - really love yourself. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
"Exceptions" or "accommodations" should be based on the explicit, individual needs of a student. Planning for such accommodations should include the student to the maximum extent practicable, the parent, the teacher, support staff, etc. as needed. I'm not suggesting anyone make unilateral, arbitrary decisions to waive rules, but I know from much experience that it is possible to accurately define a disabled or mentally ill student's needs and plan for them. The accommodations are "reasonable" in that they provide a student with access to what their specific disability makes difficult. Once the accommodation is made, it is up to the student to take the next step. This girl has. Chris (and Balladeer and LeeJ), the problem I have with your position is that I seriously doubt any of you have a close relationship/relationships with a person or persons with neurological disorders or mental illness. I also expect you've never implemented any treatment protocols for such cases. If you had, I think it would be fairly obvious to you that the "compliance-Nazis" rarely enable the neurologically impaired or mentally ill to achieve meaningful outcomes. It's not fuzzy, politically correct non-sense, but applied psychology with decades of peer review. And you seriously expect me to compare an anorexic girl with a sexual predator? Jim |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Jim? "And you seriously expect me to compare an anorexic girl with a sexual predator?" How about contrast then? Would you consider a sexual predator to be mentally ill? just sign me curious...'cause I think a psychologist could compare. And the anorexia? The goal of beauty is just a mask. Anorexia ia actually a passive aggressive rebellion in order to prove control. An anorexic will literally starve themself to death to prove to the world that he (but usually SHE) own their selves. So it IS about control. The sexual predator is also searching for control. sigh There is trauma in every stage of life. Unavoidable actually. The difference being, do we cope by turning our angry actions outword on others, or inward on ourselves? Even inward, we hold all who love us hostage. (came back to edit, because instead of "control" I should have said "power") mea culpa |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Your response is fairly what I expected, Jim. For what it's worth, my feeling is the same. Once classified as a disease, all of a sudden it has much in common with other less "sexy" diseases. I'm only drawing the comparison to look at how we can choose exceptions. If you want to look at whether or not we should be working to aid disabled people to succeed, then that's a whole other story and something I fully support (both monetarily and verbally). No, I have not had extensive interaction with disabled people. You may very well be right that my stance might be altered had I. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I'm not trying to slam anyone here. For some reason, once something is labeled a disease or disability, suddenly the person with such an affliction is no longer responsible for the actions which led to that condition. At least that's how I'm seeing it. Sometime, somewhere along the line, that young lady chose not to eat, for whatever reason. She. Chose. Again I'll reiterate: her choices, her consequences. I've had friends with psychological issues, often stemming from chemical imbalances. Some of them were born with such, or developed such during their early formative years. Others acquired such through chemical abuse. Those latter, at least in my view, became o/c, m/d, adult ADD after years of extremely poor choices. Their choices, their consequences. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"Their choices, their consequences." Indeed.  I tend to agree, bro.But not without compassion. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
i agree midi-k, but this isn't about compassion. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
C? I agree C. Misguided compassion got me into a bad situation, many a time. (that's right, it was a mercy...um, thang)  For the record, I tend to agree with the school. But still, not without compassion. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
do I think you are against preserving a child's dignity? Yes. the fallacious starting point of those who believe she is undeserving of the honor, which is at best naive and at worst bigotted. Well, what can I say after such glowing compliments? I guess whoever disagrees with you is really out there, right, Jim? I seriously doubt any of you have a close relationship/relationships with a person or persons with neurological disorders or mental illness Right again, Jim, unless you wish to count the bi-polar son who has lived with me for the past 18 years, the one i have hospitalized every year when he decides he doesn't need to take that damned medication because he is strong enough to handle it on his own, the one who never leaves the house and will never again work a day in his life. Gee, I don't know. Does he count, Jim? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
And you seriously expect me to compare an anorexic girl with a sexual predator? No Jim, I am not, but, tried to make a point to what Christopher wrote....rules are rules and must be applied to everyone... For instance...a woman was killed yesterday, by her boyfriend, who had killed a woman 11 years ago. She didn't know her boyfriend had been in jail for murder. Why did they leave him out? Point being...if they bend rules for this gal, then what rules will be bent next for the next validictorian. Jim...what it comes down to is this... We've become a grave nation of making excuses for the choices people make, even when those people break laws....this woman, is violating her body...and she is a brave and courageous gal...I hold her in great admiration...but...I believe we all agree, she does have a problem that needs to be corrected...which only she can do. In the meantime...perhaps loosing the validictorian seat, would serve as a tool/lesson. Life isn't always good, and we only have our mistakes to learn from...some don't but a lot of people do...and rules are or should be held up to, if not utter chaos will prevail. We're not helping people by being so accepting of bad behavior, none the less rewarding it. However, yes, I agree, she should be helped, what person wouldn't....but I disagree greatly upon the refrence of...this isn't her choice. It is and it was. We cannot keep excusing and deeming bad behavior as acceptable. What I'm all for, and has somehow been lost in this country, is behavior modification...which is and would be a good practice. Medications are way over used in this country which is a quick fix, not a permenant one...to enhance character, we must demand and teach behavior modification....self esteem and retrieve that inner drive to making the right choices for self, that it's ok to be who you are. And yes indeed, way to much emphasis is based on trends of clothing, spas, cosmetics, jewelry, and bodies, corrective surgery....but if you don't feel good inside...if you aren't healthy mentally, then no matter what you do to the outside you will never like the company you keep in yourself. Its about credible decisions for self Jim...Behavior modification in this country is in fact what you said, being pounded with ads of beauty. I heard the other day, 6 and 7 year olds are asking their parents...."Am I to Fat?" Cloths do not make the person, if you haven't got it inside, you'll never have a thing...and that's what we've got to teach our kids, from little on up...sucess is not measured in the material...and never will be. Adding, when your government is corrupt, so to, will your people be, and we are, we have become such greedy nation, deeming criminal behavior as acceptable. I've worked with severly handicapped children and mentally retarded children but never with people who have mental disorders. Rehabilitation has been proven to be a very good tool...and I'm all for it...but Jim, there is this inner substance, that everyone has, that I believe can overcome with the right guidence and counseling...not excuses, but rewarding good behavior...and it won't always work... Jim, I've seen parents stagnate their mentally retarded children, when in fact, with time and patience, they can learn to do more then we give them credit for...and it's the same with this gal...she can learn this is unacceptable behavior which is not only dangerously hurting herself, but all those who love her...and that's another subject we've not touched on...when will we start teaching our children, and adults, and some very upidy politicians, that the choices and decisions they make can either gravely effect all those around them, or compliment them to a greater degree? Actually, and to be respectfully honest, I believe by liberal concept we've stagnated our growth severely in this area..I believe we could be so much further ahead intellectually, scientifically, medically and physically, not to mention, be more at peace with ourselves, in turn, being at peace with each other, if we'd not gone off course with these confounded excuses for unacceptable behavior. Excuses are more harmful and disabling to self growth, and to society. And Jim...please, I'm not a Nazi, nor have I or would I, ever think like one. This is a free country, freedom of speech and opinion...if we can't allow, and listen, how then, will we ever learn? Again, you've brought to the table some very good points for discussion...and consideration....I'm very sorry you feel the way you do about our opinions...and I for one, would love to sit down and hear more of what you have to say, but the, I get a turn as well, and perhaps that way, we can all learn from each other...and grow, if we turn our minds off to one another, we'll never progress. and I sincerely mean it when I say this, with all due respect...listening to each other is the key. Its when and if we reach a time in our lives, that we become closed off to the ideas of others that we become stagnated, to ourselves, to others around us, and to society. Noah, thanks so much for your warmth and concern on this subject, for opening up this topic to the forum...you, as always, have some very realistic and valuable considerations to offer. I've grown so very fond of your great care for this country and it's people. Lee J. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
"I seriously doubt any of you have a close relationship/relationships with a person or persons with neurological disorders or mental illness" You might want to rethink that one. I would be suprised as to the opposite, that one would not have a close relationship/relationships with someone suffering from a mental illness. Not that it makes a great deal of difference, but I served on the board of our local Mental Health Association for some fifteen years as well as having personal and some twenty-five some years of professional dealings with mental ilness. Statistically, I doubt few people do not experience personally or have contact with someone suffering from some form of mental illness. The operative word in the discussion is "illness." Rather than comparing to sexual predators, perhaps the discussion ought to based upon whether the same standards would be applied to one suffering a "physical illness" and not a "mental illness." |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Balladeer: You have a son with bi-polar disorder ... so why is it so difficult for you to believe that one with another form of mental illness is in any more control of their behavior than your son? Just as the depression and manic behavior of bi-polar disorder is not a choice, neither are the eating patterns of those with eating disorders - it is a mental illness (according to the NIMH): http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/eatingdisorders.cfm As many of you know, I have a son severely affected by autism. I recognized early on that he needed specialized attention - AND CONSIDERATION - in accommodating his needs and when the public system failed him, I joined a group of like-minded parents to found a world-class autism program in Central Pennsylvania. But I didn't decide what that program would look like in a vacuum - I did the best I could to get inside his mind ... his world ... so I could best understand what services and accommodations were necessary to help him get better. What I am reading in this thread is a group of people who refuse to give sufficient consideration to this girl's world and refuse to ask the question, "Are the general rules of the school code fair when applied to someone who is not entirely in control of their behavior?" By focusing myopically on choices and consequences, you are both missing important issues and forgeting that consequences must be suitably tailored to address the behavior in order to have any meritorious effect. When behaviors are severe and self destructive, then it is our moral obligation to rally around the person with the goal of getting through it. The sexual predator analogy is irrelavent - sex crimes harm those besides the predator, while anorexia involves hurting one's self. After the sexual predator is rehabilitated, his victims remain. With anorexia, there are no other victims. At some level, however, I would caution all of you against dehumanizing the criminal. Not to excuse their actions, but to accept that human beings are fallable and that criminals are to be both punished and pitied. Christopher, LeeJ, and the rest: I concede that I may have written too harshly, but the bottom line from my perspective is that the opinions I've read in this thread have been exceedingly harsh and unsympathetic to this girl's situation. Such views mis-portray her struggle as a poor lifestyle choice and, in doing so, reduce her value as a human being. Her handling of being passed over for valedictorian displays remarkable maturity, and serves (to me) as another reason why she's deserving of the honor. But the fact remains that she is being passed over for valedictorian because the time she needed to recover from a mental illness required her missing more than the allowed number of school days. That's wrong. Jim |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Alicat: quote: So when my son hits his teacher because that is the way he "chose" to communicate his frustration/anger/pain/disappointment, the consequence should be the same for him as it would be a child without a neurological disorder? That seems to be what you're saying. Jim |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Jim Hi and good morning... I know some gals who might be borderline anorexic...they leave at lunch so they don't eat...go shopping instead...and I know what I had to go through to stay thin... Jim, it was by choice, then, to take that step to not eat, or for someone to stick their fingers down their throat. No one took their hand and did it for them...and by the way, I cannot believe it is a mental illness, well, let me rephrase that, I don't believe it starts as a mental illness but by choice, peer pressure,....and maybe I'm wrong, but I presently feel it's a lack of belief in themselves, very very obsessed to obtain the almost impossible to the point of skeletal bodies, very very low self esteem... And yes they do hurt others when they chose to do this, if my daughter or son were anorexic, it would surely hurt and be upsetting. So, yes, they absolutely do hurt others...which is again my point of stressing over and over again....that your words, decissions and actions can surely hurt someone to the point of turning their lives around negatively. I don't believe we can compare this to someone who is bi-polar. And I do possess great empathy for these people...but will admit, when you cross a line and physically harm others or kill them, then any empathy I feel starts to fade and my concern turns toward the victim. Sorry, but that's where I believe our thoughts should be, 1st and foremost. I'm sorry but, for many years now, I've seen this country turn for the worst. Jim, rules may not always seem fair, but, they were put there for a reason, and I apologize and feel badly for this gal, but under the circumstances, I'd have to hold ground and say, someone else should receive this title. Again, perhaps a grave lesson for this gal to learn, but in the end, it might be the curve ball that turns this whole gals life around for the good, so that she realizes the necessity to gain help and defeat this problem, with all the might that she has, and the help of loved ones and professionals to get her through this. Adding, I pray she does, I really do. But these kids need a solid strong role model...and presently this gal is not strong nor in any condition to serve as a leader for her fellow students. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
LeeJ: Did you read the NIMH publication on the link? Are you readily dismissing: quote: Perhaps you have information we don't have? I'm willing to adjust my opinion given sufficient evidence, but platitudes on "choice" and "consequences" are simply not convincing. Jim |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Jim, I do have great respect for you and know you have enormous love for your son. You've gone through hell and high water to provide the best you could, and then some. So I know this might well rankle you: yes. If your son was to physically assault another, say a teacher, then the consequences should be the same ones anybody else would have. Assault is assault. Personally, obviously, I don't view consequences for actions as myopic. I'll admit I'm a hardass. I do feel it's a grave disservice to the person committing the action to label it something other than what it is. What you basically say to that person is 'Whatever you did, it's not your fault.' This is not only how I was raised. It's also how I CHOSE to be. My choices, my consequences. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Jim Several family and twin studies are suggestive of a high heritability of anorexia and bulimia, (11,12) and researchers are searching for genes that confer susceptibility to these disorders (13). Scientists suspect that multiple genes may interact with environmental and other factors to increase the risk of developing these illnesses. Identification of susceptibility genes will permit the development of improved treatments for eating disorders. In this I believe the key words are "suggestive" and Scientists are "searching" 11 Strober M, Freeman R, Lampert C, Diamond J, Kaye W. Controlled family study of anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa: evidence of shared liability and transmission of partial syndromes. American Journal of Psychiatry, 2000; 157(3): 393-401. In this, a controlled family study...key word being "study" 12 Walters EE, Kendler KS. Anorexia nervosa and anorexic-like syndromes in a population-based female twin sample. American Journal of Psychiatry, 1995; 152(1): 64-71. this one, is ify...what does it mean, that due to this fine, anorexic like syndromes are in every female gene? 13 Kaye WH, Lilenfeld LR, Berrettini WH, Strober M, Devlin B, Klump KL, Goldman D, Bulik CM, Halmi KA, Fichter MM, Kaplan A, Woodside DB, Treasure J, Plotnicov KH, Pollice C, Rao R, McConaha CW. A search for susceptibility loci for anorexia nervosa: methods and sample description. Biological Psychiatry, 2000; 47(9): 794-803. and this is a search for susceptibility loci for anorexia....again the word search...doesn't mean it's been found, by extensive research and found to be in the genes...these are most certainly clinical studies, but as of yet, have not been proven....adding A sound body depends on the continuous interplay of thousands of proteins, acting together in just the right amounts and in just the right places - and each properly functioning protein is the product of an intact gene. Genes can be altered (mutated) in many ways. The most common gene mistake involves a single changed base in the DNA - a misspelling. Other alterations include the loss or gain of a base. Sometimes long segments of DNA are multiplied or disappear. Some mutations are silent; they affect neither the structure of the encoded protein nor its function. Other mutations result in an altered protein. In some instances, the protein is normal enough to function, but not well; this is the case of the flawed hemoglobinthe oxygen-carrying protein in the bloodthat causes sickle-cell anemia. In other instances, the protein can be totally disabled. The outcome of a particular mutation depends not only on how it alters a protein's function but also on how vital that particular protein is to survival. But, Jim in the same, post hypnotic suggestion along with great desire can also alter a humans behavior patterns...along with choice, temptations, etc., strength of the individual, how strong are the desires to be accepted by peers...and what is the self esteem level of the individual, the obsession level, the concern for hurting oneself, and others? As well as genes, all these other factors also play a great role. Yes, there are studies being performed but as of yet, evidence has yet to be proven by further years of studies ahead...and at this point, I'm not saying genes might not have an effect...but, a part of a whole. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
So Alicat would have autistic kids handcuffed and escorted out of schools and LeeJ has a problem with the use of "suggested" and "searching" and "study" in peer reviewed psychology journals. First, Cat, your black and white view of the world presents serious problems and if everyone subscribed to such standards, we'd still be farming the disabled and mentally ill in institutions and under deplorable conditions. Get them out of our sight! They are different! They don't behave like the rest of us! Pen the Changelings away - for all know that defective children are merely bodies without souls! Second, your standard ignores antecedants that trigger such behaviors and, in doing so, absolves the educator of all wrongdoing. What if the child was routinely strapped to a chair? What if the child was hypersensity to sound and the fire alarm went off? When you experience great frustration, you can vent it by talking with someone or posting a message in the Alley. When my son experiences great frustration, he hits others or slams his head on the floor or against the car window. Do you punish him for expressing his frustration in the best way he can or do you look to give him positive ways to deal with anxiety and frustration? I like my way better. And LeeJ, if you are looking for "proven" in psychological matters, then you must, to maintain consistency, apply the same standard to your own opinion. Modernly, most recognize psychology is a descriptive science (rather than a prescriptive one) - findings are presented in terms of probability. You'll never find the equivalent of E-MC2 in psychology, but NIMH still presents more evidence than you have. Now if either of you (or anyone here) wants to read the journal articles, I can pull them for you. Just email me and I'll send them. Perhaps, then, this discussion could be better informed. Jim P.S. http://www.raderprograms.com/googleindex.aspx ... off of one of Ron's banner ads. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't think her personal choices about diet or weight is something that the school has the right to deal out consequences for. The school however, does have the right to have symphathy for her health condition and give special room for lifeneedful treatments. It's not an issue of academics at that, its an issue of needing life. If they need special treatments, they need special room in the academic-system. It doesn't matter what her choices were before. Her need to leave was not a choice. It was the same as needing blood. You don't have a choice. Either you receive blood or you die. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jim, you have no more right to tell me how i should feel because of Dwight than I have telling you how you should feel about your son. I've looked over the comments of myself, Chris and anyone else that has had a viewpoint different from yours and I find none that are harsh, unsympathetic or bigoted. I must assume that ANY comments that do not agree with your way of thinking appear that way to you and any opinions that are contrary to yours are deserving receipients of name-calling on your part and that's a shame. Personally, I feel that the school should be applauded for their action. They were able to maintain the integrity of the rules and, by coming up the the honorary valedictorian award (which I'm sure was a first for them) they found a way to give credit and acknowledgement to her for her achievements. I don't see a downside there. She has handled the entire situation with a lot more class and dignity than I see exhibited here. There's something to be learned from her, I think. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I think we're mixing issues here. I have no problem with adjusting the rules as a whole to "accomodate" someone with mental illnesses(note that it's not an exception, but rather a re-definition). I don't think it'll work too well in many situations, though I imagine that it might in some of the more, what'd you say, Jim, "warm fuzzy political correct" situations. Our courts already do it - we've recognized that someone who is not capable of understanding right from wrong should be treated as unable to be tried the same as someone who does. And that is where my issue on this whole thread lies. It's not a lack of compassion for this young lady - I'm darn impressed that she took her treatement into her own hands and stepped up to the proverbial plate to hit a home run and create an admirable life for herself - this is compunded by her statement that she feels good and right about herself and doesn't 'need' an award to show she's a valuable person. The issue is with one party saying they should be given special consideration for their case; not measured against the same ruler as everyone else, but should be given the same awards as someone measured on a different, likely stricter ruler. You can't claim to deserve equal rewards, when you're not willing or able to accept equal requirements. egowhores.com - really love yourself. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Balladeer: A position that regards anorexia as a choice that is maintained in the face of evidence that suggests otherwise is by definition bigotry. If it offends you that I label a position you or Christopher or LeeJ hold as bigotry, I say "good." And I do have a right to tell you how you should feel. I simply lack the right to make you act on what I tell you. If I thought you were handling your son wrongly, I'd tell you - or more probably, offer suggestions that may help your son cope with his disorder in a more healthy manner. On the same token, if I thought you were doing something right, I'd tell you that too. To remain silent in such a situation, in my eyes, would be the wrong thing to do. I also find the notion that the school should be applauded for its willingness to create a new rule while remaining unwilling to make accommodations on an inconsequential old rule highly questionable. It was a political move by the school, without substantive meaning. In essense, you are applauding the school for doing nothing. Saying my comments lack class is a fair comment. It got your attention - and that was the design of my invective rhetoric. I also think there is at least some truth to my choice of words. Christopher: Actually, there are clear guidelines provided by Federal law as enacted by individual states that present clearly what specially designed instruction to eligible students should look like. In this student's case, it could be considered "homebound" or "center-based" instruction outside of the regular education classroom. That is entirely within the bounds of the law and, in my estimation, trumps individual school codes and policies. That's why I believe the school's actions might not only be wrong, but also in violation of Federal law. And I'm sure you, who would argue for strict adherence to the letter of the law, would consider such a legal option to be considered something besides an "exception." And I think you both can learn something from Ess's example. Jim |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
if the problem is with the rule, then fine. The rule should be changed so enrollment is not a criteria. if the rule is applied equally to all, irrespective the nature of their illness or failure to enroll properly, then why should she be be given preferential treatment? there is a difference between accomodation and making exceptions to rules. they did make accomodations to her, some pretty significant ones. I still don't see being valedictorian as that big of deal and would go along with the trend to do away with it all together as schools are now beginning to do. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Tim: Why? Try the Rehabilitation Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Improvement Act. The former two have to do with reasonable accommodations for eligible people with disabilities (including emotional disturbances and mental illness) and the latter provides for adaptations to the curriculum necessary for a person with a disability to access the general education curriculum to the maximum extent appropriate to the needs of the student. I'd bet money that this student was eligible to specially designed, off-sight instruction while she was in therapy and it is the school's affirmative responsibility to identify explicit needs and accommodate them. That's the law. Mysteria: Thanks for sharing your story. I'm not sure how such issues are dealt with in Canada's public school system, but the United States has numerous protections in place for students like the subject of this thread. Jim |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
What should I learn Jim? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Reading Ess' comments again, I don't see anything I would disagree with. I won't, for even a moment, say that this young lady should have stayed to the detriment of her health. Health is by far more important than an award of any type. I just don't understand how you can suggest that the rewards be the same if there is preferential treatment. Should I, then, be penalized for not being disabled? What if I, with no discernable disabilities, met 99% of the criteria, but not that last 1%, should I then still receive the award? Should someone else who is disabled receive it over me because they met 98.9% of the criteria, but had they not sought treatment, would have met 99.5%? This isn't an isolated incident either and isn't only disabilities/diseases. You can find the same in dealing with race and religion and sex, as well as other things. The compensation for bias, disability and past predjudice often swings past the status of equality and into the status of over-equality. egowhores.com - really love yourself. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
And I do have a right to tell you how you should feel. ...and who gave you that right, Jim? God call you and tell you that you were the chosen one to decide how everyone should feel? I sympathize with you and your son's situation but you don't have a corner on the hard luck department and everyone has the right to have their own thoughts. You may agree or disagree but, until the day comes that I open the Bible and see your picture in it, I choose not to give you that right. ...and, yes, I have learned something here. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
He has the right to tell you Mike. Just as you have the right to ignore him. I will agree that having a right and exercising it are two different matters. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
There's a differece between having the right and having the power...otherwise, I agree, Chris. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
The problem is in the "rule" itself. Its stated purpose was to prevent outsiders form transferring in late and taking top honors from students who spent their academic careers earning high grades at the school. In this case, it has failed miserably. In fact, it has had exact opposite effect. Instead of penalizing a transfer, it has penalized a student who spent her whole time at that school, earning top grades all the way, a student whom everyone expected to win the award. Where is the fairness in that? When a rule is proven to be wrong, to accomplish the exact opposite from its original intent, it can and should be corrected. This is quite obviously one of those cases. The administration has all but admitted such. It is certainly clear that the rule eas poorly worded. I'm no lawyer but I am confident that I could have written it in such a way that it would have accomplished the stated goal. No, there is no need to "make an exception to the rule." Instead, make an ammendment or completely rewrite it as it should have been done initially. A real wrong has been done here and deserves to be corrected. Valedictorian is an honor that means somethine later in life. To offer her "honorary" status is little more than a slap in the face by an administration that is too small-minded to admit their mistake. Even the runner-up, whom they are honoring, says she should be the one. How dense can an administration be? Pete |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Getting back to the original topic, this event is like a doubled sided coin. On one side, you reward the one who overcame great obstacles but wasn't there, and penalize the one that also excelled but was there. Or you penalize the one who excelled but wasn't there, and award the one who excelled and was there. When determining who gets what, academics are the main issue. In the case of ties, then other factors like extra-curricular activities, volunteer work, and yes, attendance come into play. If there's still a tie, well....flip a coin. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Not quite right Ali. The one receiving the award only almost excelled but was there. I have to agree with Jim on the attendance point. the young lady who truly excelled did all the work required as I am sure was done by the real runner-up. The fact that she was missing on the specific date mandated by the erroneous "rule" really should have no bearing as the rule should have been declared void since it was proven to be a self-defeating rule anyway. The writers of that poorly conceived rule need to just pull their collective heads out from where the sun don't shine, admit their egregious error in judgement and make things right for all concerned. This all is JMHO, of course. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Pete raises a good point. After all ... if we all believed in blindly following established rules and their consequences, Southerners would still be trading African Americans on the slave market. The rule they are applying to this girl is unjust and unreasonable, and probably illegal under these circumstances. And Mike - I hope you've learned that our first reaction should be to pull for those who need help. Reform begins with advocacy and a part of advocacy is telling others how you believe they should feel about someone or something. And Chris is right - you are free to ignore my opinion to your benefit or at your peril. All I ask is that you support your position with substance rather than being arbitrary and capricious about these serious matters. Chris - I think you're missing the point. Nobody questions this young girl's academic achievement. In fact, it's pretty amazing that she maintained that standard under the circumstances. I think she satisfied all of the substantive criteria to be deserving of the honor. From the sounds of it, she was denied the honor on no other basis besides her having an eating disorder that required treatment. Question to you and Mike: If she had missed school to be treated for leukemia, would your position be the same? Jim |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I wonder, had the treatment taken place in TEXAS, and not OKLAHOMA, if they would be taking the same stance? *shaking head* |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
...and I can ask that, if she were in the hospital having a baby, would your position be the same? Then we can come up with a list of other situations and vote on them.....that's where exceptions lead. The one thing that strikes me a little odd about this entire scenario is that the school had given the parent a reminder warning about the rules beforehand. SOmehow that leads me to believe that the treatment could have been done at another time that did not conflict with the school rules otherwise why a warning? You don't warn somebody about committing an action that cannot be averted. she was in a treatment facility seeking help for the eating disorder, anorexia nervosa. That sounds like a voluntary action on their part, not a mandatory one, which could have been handled in a way not to conflict with the school rules and it certainly makes comparing it to leukemia a moot point. I am certainly not againt this girl. In my first post here I mentioned how I sympathized with her. Had she been named valedictorian, I certainly wouldn't have complained but it's the demanding exceptions to the rules that I disagree with, if alternatives were possible. ...and thanks, Jim. The next time Dwight is strapped into a hospital bed screaming that he will kill any doctor that tries to get near him after having smashed every radio, television and computer in the house because the devil was using them to talk to him, I'll try to remind myself not to be so capricious. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Wrong again Mike. The alternative to treating anorexia is death. Had she been your daughter, could you have advised her to put off something so important? As important as valedictorian can be, sacrificing ones life for it makes little sense. Hold on there Sunshine. I think Noah said the was in Denver. That's Colorado, not Oklahoma. We don't allow schools to make such foolish "rules" here! I suspect Kansas doesn't either. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
"Question to you and Mike: If she had missed school to be treated for leukemia, would your position be the same?" That would be the point. What if her mother had been ordered to Iraq for six months and she had to go live with her father in another state the first six weeks of school? What if her family got transferred to another job in another locale? What if she broke her leg playing soccer? What if... what if... what if... Again, the rule may be wrong, but if it is uniformly enforced, then it is not discrimination because someone with a mental illness was subjected to the rule. How was she not accomodated? She attended school, she got whatever grade she got with missing a substantial portion of the school year. She got her education. By virtue of the fact the rule is in place and she had a 5.5 grade point indicates something. It would be interesting to note if she was a National Merit finalist, or what her ACT was. There was a boy in my daughter's class who missed out being a co-valedictorian because he got a B+ in driver's ed (a one hour class)on his driving ability. He didn't have the same 4.0 the other co-valedictorians had. Was that fair? He was denied valedictorian because he was uncoordinated. That is why schools have to go to weighted G.P.A.'s because if the students don't get A's, the parents raise holy heck... and students take classes and teachers, and drop classes and teachers at the high school level to get the A rather than learning. She was denied nothing educationally except she did not get a title because of a rule that I assume was applied uniformly to everyone. Say the rule is stupid, but if one's immediate reaction is discrimination exists if someone does not get what they want, then it will not be hard to find. The problem is not discrimination, it is we have to find discrimination in everything, and yep, life ain't fair. She got treated unfairly because of a rule that may be unfair, (and I will agree, a stupid rule, but for a different reason than most would take) not because she suffered from a mental illness, but in the long run, I suspect as far as college admittance, she has hit the bonanza. I doubt college admissions consider an "A" student as an overwhelming credential since most schools have a substantial portion of their student body on high honors. She now has the recognition to set her apart. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Pete, you make it sound like she had to have that treatment then to keep her from dying. If that were the case, then of course I would agree...it would be insane not to. The way the article was written, however, leads me to believe that was not the case. First, as I said, the school warning in advance. Second, the parents saying that they were hoping the rules wouldn't be enforced. Now I ask you..if she were receiving treatment necessary to save her life at that time, would they be saying 'we were hoping the rules wouldn't be enforced'? No, they would be screaming, "You dunderheads!!! She's dying and needs this treatment to survive!!!" (or something like that) ) So it appears to me, from this article, it was not the life or death scenario you may be leaning toward and, without further information, we can't know from here. I agree with Tim that the rule leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of rules leave a lot to be desired. I would hate to be the father of a daughter murdered by some jerk who gets off on a techncality...the search warrant wasn't signed properly, he was not advised of his rights or any one of a myriad of ways criminals walk away scot-free. You may scream, "My daughter is dead! That doesn't change just because the search warrant wasn't signed!!"...and you would be right. Guess what? It wouldn't matter. A travesty of justice, for sure. This student's case may be called the same thing...the results are the same. If I had to choose between the two, I would choose a school that teaches by example that rules must be followed as opposed to one teaching there are exceptions to every rule. It certainly prepares them better for this insane experience we call life. p.s....they have schools in Oklahoma???  |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7884243/?GT1=6542 quote: Right, Pete. Not Kansas. My shaking of the head implied, and I should have been clarifying here...that it looks to me like she appeared to be a "transferred" student. Do we have all the facts here? Was she temporarily "studying" in Oklahoma? I think we're missing a huge redfile worth of facts. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Oops, don't know why I thought Colorado. I do remember the Texas/Oklahoma notes now that you remind me. Well, I guess memory is the SECOND thing to go after all. And sorry Mike. I guess I did imply that death was imminent and there is no evidence of that. But death is the alternative to untreated anorexia. I still maintain that the best time for treatment is whenever the person realizes and accepts the fact that treatment is necessary. If that interferes with something else the so be it. By the school warning the parents, were they overlooking that fact? Was the purpose to warn them that the needed to get her out of that essential medical treatment just to be there on that particular day? Instead of warning the parents, they should have put their efforts into formulating a rule that would accomplish their intent. From this discussion, it seems that most, or at least many, may agree that the rule was wrongly written. What reasonable organization insists on enforcing a rule that accomplishes the opposite of its desired effect rather than admit the error and correct it? |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: I think you're being arbitrary and capricious about applying the "your choice, your consequences" to this girl's situation. I empathize with your personal struggles, but they are irrelevant to this discussion, or at least I don't see where you've tied it into the discussion. Although I think I've either mentioned it or aluded to it several times in this thread, has it occurred to anyone else that this girl might have been entitled to the accommodations I've been writing about from the beginning? If you're going to insist on enforcing the rules, then you must look at all the rules. Again, I think it is likely that the school had a responsibility under Federal law to make the accommodations I mentioned. The same would be true had the student been disabled in a car accident, had a life-threatening illness, or any other disability contemplated under existing law (I don't think pregnancy is included, although forced bed rest when there are complications may fall under the category of physical disability). The schools have the affirmative responsibility to identify eligible students and develop an individualized education plan to accommodate the identified needs. Parental involvement is required, but a parent's not following through - and there is an abundance of caselaw on this - does not absolve the school of its Section 504 and IDEA responsibilities. FOR THE LAST TIME - ALL OF YOU WHO WANT TO STICK TO THE RULES, THERE ARE EXISTING RULES THAT MAY SUPERCEDE THE RULE THE SCHOOL CHOSE TO ENFORCE!!! Tim: In each instance you mentioned, one would have to apply the applicable rule to the individual facts. I'm arguing from the standpoint of disability - where Federal protections have been in place for more than 30 years. Perhaps the "what-ifs" don't end, but the answers to many of the "what-ifs" can be found in well established law. In any case where an existing rule, even one uniformly applied, is superceded by a higher law, then the higher law prevails. A few important facts: (1) Anorexia nervosa is recognized by both the NIMH and DSM IV as a psychological disorder; (2) Anorexia nervosa can be captured under the "emotional disturbance" category of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act - See 34 C.F.R. Part 300.7(c)4(i)(C) through (E) - "Emotional disturbance is defined as follows (i) The term means a condition exhibiting one or more of the following characteristics over a long period of time and to a marked degree that adversely affects a child's educational performance ... (C) Inappropriate types of behavior or feelings under normal circumstances, (D) A general pervasive mood of unhappiness or depression, (E) A tendency to develop physical symptoms or fears associated with personal or school problems"; (3) under IDEA, the school has the affirmative responsibility to identify eligible students and develop and education plan designed to meet their explicit educational needs in an environment appropriate to their explicit needs (include homebound or center-based outside of the classroom); (4) local school codes do not supercede Federal disability law. The "exceptions lead to more exceptions" argument falls flat if you consider the child's educational rights. And lastly, Mike and Tim, given a choice, my children would attend a school that abides by its responsibilities under No Child Left Behind, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, the Rehabilitation Act, the Civil Rights Act, and the Americans with Disabilities Education Act, as well as one that enforces its existing school code fairly and consistently. Discipline has its place - but its place is most probably not in this girl's situation. Jim |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I empathize with your personal struggles, but they are irrelevant to this discussion, or at least I don't see where you've tied it into the discussion. That's easy enough to answer, Jim. YOU brought them into this discussion. Chris (and Balladeer and LeeJ), the problem I have with your position is that I seriously doubt any of you have a close relationship/relationships with a person or persons with neurological disorders or mental illness. I also expect you've never implemented any treatment protocols for such cases I never discuss my personal life if possible on this site and I doubt that over three people here knew my household situation but, if you are going to throw out irresponsible insinuations with no actual knowledge whatsoever if they are accurate enough, then you are asking for the gauntlet to be picked up. If nothing else, I hope you have learned not to jump to personal conclusions so readily. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Pete, I certainly agree with a lot of your points, from a common sense point of view. What reasonable organization insists on enforcing a rule that accomplishes the opposite of its desired effect rather than admit the error and correct it? You mean, besides Congress and our judicial system? I've read that article several times and a couple of things jump out at me, fisrt the fact that she wasn't enrolled. It wasn't just the case that she was missing classes - she hadn't even enrolled in the school for her junior year. COuld her parrents have enrolled her even without her being there? I don't know. The other thing that is a burr under my saddle is the way the article was written. I think we all know what today's press is like. They live for going on feeding frenzys and championing causes. Well, they have a doozy here - a sick girl being denied her due by an overly-strict school system with archaic rules they refuse to bend for her sake, etc. etc. I don't know about your part of the world but, down here, that school would be toast. Reporters and news channels would raise their banners and go after everybody associated with the fiasco. The school prinicpal would have his quotes on page one and his entire academic record would be fodder for anyone with a press badge. All school policies would be gone over with a fine-tooth comb, students would be searched out who have complaints about being treated unfairly by this school, mothers would march and protest the school's actions, placards waving overhead demanding justice for the victim here. This is nothing like that. The article touched on the facts, not condemning the school's position, simply reporting the actions. No outrage, no cry of foul....nothing. This leads me to believe one of two things - either the school principal also owns the newspaper or, as Sunshine alluded to, perhaps there are other things in play here that were not included in the article that make a difference. Beats me, but I see a very lukewarm article here on such a volatile topic and i wonder why. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Mike, notice that I did refer to "reasonable" organization. That specifically excludes both Congress and the Judicial system.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That's true, Pete...I also noticed how you deliberately refused to answer my question as to whether or not there are schools in Oklahoma!  |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: First, I think you're over reacting. Second, I admit that I was mistaken in assuming what I did about your personal life based on the position you were presenting. Still, I have a hard time understanding that, given your experiences, you still cannot see the civil rights issues raised by this situation. The school shouldn't be lambasted, but it should be corrected. Based on my last post, are you at least willing to accept the the school's actions might have been illegal? JIm |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
the school has the affirmative responsibility to identify eligible students and develop and education plan designed to meet their explicit educational needs I can't say, Jim. As I have just said in the comment above this one, I don't think we have the full picture. There are too many gaps. As far as what I have highlighted here, the fact remains that she was not a student. She had not yet enrolled. How could the school commit an illegal act against a non-student? I repeat, we don't have the full picture. We are trying to reconstruct and judge the entire scenario based on one newspaper article. It would seem to me that if they did indeed commit an illegal action, someone would be acting on it. Overreacting? I do that when insulted and/or told how I should think. I have insulted no one in this thread. Nor have I told anyone how they should think. I've expressed my views. That's the difference between your comments and mine. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Only knowing the local school system here from the viewpoint of having worked for an attorney who was the lead counsel for the district, all I can say, again [and with some qualified certainty] that indeed, we most likely do not have all of the facts. If the media were to ever look at a news story truly from a legal aspect, I suspect a lot more of us would be reading less "flash point news" articles and spending a lot more time watching Nascar, golf, or baseball on the weekends [while we ladies would probably get a whole lot more done with family and writing, in whichever priority we prefer.] As a personal comment, I am sick to being detered from reading/listening/watching the news much, anymore. Flash points are indeed what are given, and the most we can expect is that they will [and sometimes will not] name the correct parties involved, let alone know the facts that NEED to be reported until AFTER it has become a huge issue. As for the schools' rules and regs - they have so many groups pulling for all sorts of accomodations - and not that they shouldn't be given - but for every new accommodation made, that is more money literally being taken away from the original requirement that schools were set up for to begin with - to teach! The public argues against the raising of taxes - but without those dollars, the legitimate, special needs of individuals will continue to erode a school's original purpose. [By the way, that is NOT sports.] For anyone who wishes to continue this conversation with facts, then that person indeed ought to go and find out the "rest of the story" behind this young lady's situation. Personally, I know that most responsibile folk in the education and administration of such systems are completely aware of the various and multiple laws they have to deal with each day, and I am also fairly sure that they indeed gave a lot of thought to this particular situation. If I sound a bit embittered over this, I am. I have seen various families whose child's medical needs have nearly bankrupted local districts. Instead of working with the system, or improving the system, they just attacked it because their special child wasn't getting the same treatment as every other child. Jim, please do not misunderstand me. I feel all children need to be given the chance to be enrolled and have adequate help necessary to their child's needs. And I do not know the severity of your child's needs, so I am not in any way saying that your child doesn't belong in the public school system. What I am saying, however, is that there are several families out there whose children do NOT belong in the public school system because that very system is being used for nothing more than a babysitting service, as some of those children need assistance that goes far BEYOND what public schooling can supply. But they [the school systems] are set up, and in two or three years, when their child hasn't advanced "as we have been told by other authorities that s/he should have!" then all I can say is, parents, please place your children where they WILL be able to receive one on one education. The public school system is going to be damaged severely by the "special" demands that [I feel] are being placed on their educators. Jim, as I said, this is in no way being said with regard to your own child's special interests. If you remember, several years ago I sent you some information on special education needs/requirements. It has been since then that I have seen those with "special needs" simply drain the system. I've half a mind to delete this, but I'm going to let the comments stand. I do not particularly like confrontation or arguments of any kind, but I truly feel you are all battling a war that need not be fought simply because - I am sure that we have NOT been presented with all of the facts. Until we have them, let's not assume things of which we have no knowledge. Speculate all you will - but do it by looking at all possibilities. End of rant. Thank you. Bowing out. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (05-28-2005 09:28 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sorry Mike. I read that as a rethorical question. Yes, we do have schools in Oklahoma,  have for several years now. Some of them are even pretty good. Of course, some still suffer from being taken over by the federal courts several years ago. Someday we hope to actually recover from that fiasco. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I searched and found this article in the Kingswood Observer.. In fact, proof that the district recognized her status as a student is that teachers continued sending her assignments, coaching her and maintaining contact with her. Scherr was reportedly sent assignments during her recovery and was graded on them like any other student who misses classes due to an illness. The school obviously recognized her as a student who would return to class following her recovery. If this is indeed the case I am happy and willing to reverse my opinion of this case and side with the young lady. The school would have negated its own rules by giving her student privileges and status. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Interesting. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
What, Pete? What is interesting? That I ranted? Or that 'Deer acquiesced to knowing that more is needed to know? I'm on a kick tonight - please forgive that. I'm just tired of the schools not being able to manage what they have to deal with, day in, day out, that's all. Thanks for any clarification you can give on "interesting". |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Sunshine, my thoughts have nothing to do with your comments because I agree with everything you said and understand what you mean about the drain on a system trying to keep its head above water. As you had pointed out before I did, it seemed that more information than that article was necessary and I agreed. With this new info it apears that the young lady does not fall into the category of student you were referring to, hence my reassessment of thoughts. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Add to that the fact that most schools or school boards send notification letters to parents of very select students. In other words, they rarely single out a student for enrollment notification unless certain explicit circumstances are first met. Generally, all parents of students will get the same letter. In my own reading of articles, her parents were singled out as the cousellors urged them to bring their daughter in to register before the deadline, even if she was only there for one day, just so she would qualify for academic standings and awards. She chose to put her own health first. And though I applaud her for that, a choice was made, and every action has a consequence, be it good, bad or neutral. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
By "interesting," I referred to the article Mike quoted and his own statement that it might change his mind. BTW, I do agree with most of your comments about the difficulty the schools have keeping up with laws and special requirements. It is almost as if the whole of politics, laws and the judiciary has run amok. Come on Ali, lighten up a bit. How many times are we going to hear "actions have consequences?" Yeah, it's fine if they wanted her there just for that one day. That's a pretty petty excuse though. I can't speak specifically about this program but most of the "intervention" programs will not allow a "leave of absence. If you leave then you are out. Again, we can't know for sure but this may well have been her last chance. One more failure may well have sealed her doom. Ok, with that, I am through agruing. Nothing we say here will affect the outcome anyway. This has become just another political argument where all minds are already made up and none are likely to change. With the possible exception of my friend Mike. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Thank you, gentlemen. Over the past 10 years I have seen, first hand, the various groups come in and change the system which, Pete, as you suggest, is most certainly running amok. And while a more gregarious person in my seat would say "hell, it's maintaining a job source..." I would rather be without this type of work when I see that the detriment is "our future". It becomes the ultimate in a rat's race, and the feedings indeed become frenzied. Maybe I need to retire. Oh wait, I can't.  |
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