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Tens of Thousands of Iraqis Demand U.S. Withdrawal
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Tens of Thousands of Iraqis Demand U.S. Withdrawal |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space 
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40509-2005Apr9.html Proving it's not just lefty's and insurgents that are tired of this illegal occupation. We've brought 'freedom' and 'democracy' to Iraq, now that Iraqi's have been given a voice, when will it be heard? |
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SEA 
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
you know, I am very pro military and all that good stuff, but I do think it's time for us to get out and come home.  |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I do find these protests very relevant indeed. I understand on the day of the second anniversary of the war in Iraq, there was a thread that was started here where it was argued, "Hey, dozens of countries worldwide had people going out to protest the war in Iraq, but you know who's not protesting? IRAQ! What's up with that?" Among those who haven't opposed the war in Iraq, I do recognize that is understandable behavior to have, as I don't believe any of us can truly ever begin to fathom exactly what the citizens of Iraq are feeling each and every moment. But THIS protest really is symbolic of the urgency of this situation in Iraq and really speaks out once and for all that the real key ingredient in taming all the attacks, all the bloodshed, and speeding up the peoples democracy in Iraq is for this occupation to end once and for all. That's the only "turning point" that will really matter. This particular protest is especially important because it was held on the second anniversary of the toppling of Saddam Hussein. I've already stressed and can't stress enough how scary and freightening this senseless war in Iraq has been to the world, and it is absolutely freightening to me when now they are putting Bush and Blair in the same triangle as Hussein, their "Triangle of Death". I figured that would happen, and I believe it's only hurting the world by prolonging this unpopular invasion. All those Iraqis obviously are brave, determined people who really are summoning the will to start over, to begin a new era together in their own hands. Absolutely seeing them all go out risking their lives to vote that January day was extraordinary. They knew it was their one chance, one golden opportunity to have their voices heard. They wanted independence, independence from terror and foreign occupation. I believe in recent months the people of Iraq have been trying to be as patient as they can, eager to take their new beginning the next step forward. But the fact is, the occupation continues, with no end in sight. And THAT'S the spiking horse to what encouraged this massive protest. More and more now realize those maintaining the occupation are not moving to their interests, and should nothing change, the next major protest will eclipse this one, and so forth. I believe we can all agree that the Iraqis have that determination for democracy in both their eyes and their hearts. We should acknowledge their needs, their desires, and I believe this quote from a rally speaker summed it out perfectly: "We want a stable Iraq and this will only happen through independence. There will be no security and stability unless the occupiers leave. The occupiers must leave my country." I certainly hope these words can reach the ears of our administration and that they can be moved by this democracy in action. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
quote: The US government better be listening. It is past time for the military and US government to depart, to let them govern themselves. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
SEA I'm not anti-military, I'm against a [edit] war and the use of soldiers as pawns dying and killing for a lie. [This message has been edited by Alicat (04-10-2005 07:39 PM).] |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
I didn't mean you were(anti) Raph just saying that I am(pro), and that even though I am, I think it's time we left them to learn how to do this for themselves.  that was all |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I would think that the decision of when we leave is up to the newly installed government, that the people elected not to long ago, and not to the mobs in the street. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I know Susan, just sayin grins denise, the 'mob' was Shiite, not Sunni. there's no need to villify them.voters protest too, especially inaction and foreign occupation. and there's a good chance that if the inaction/occupation continues more and more, even those who believed in the elections, will see it for what it is an 'installed' government |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Denise, those particularly young people out there on the streets certainly weren't "mobs". They were concerned citizens who believe in democracy and only want to be free, period. We were all so deeply moved that January day when eight million Iraqi citizens came out, risking their lives to vote, and we were moved by their courage, that they truly believed in democracy and nothing could hold their desire back. I truly hope that everyone could be moved the same way by these weekend protests. I truly hope our administration will do the right thing and really respect and be moved by this whole other display of democracy and courage. And if not, I remain convinced that they just don't know the true nature of democracy. There are those who could dismiss my response to the war as "senseless" and then praise the elections as though I never believed in them from the beginning, as though I don't deserve any say in how proud and moved I truly was by it all. But I'll tell you this. If pacifists like myself had our way, and we enacted a non-war alternative in throwing a coup on Saddam and his most loyal adversaries and capturing them while sparing the many losses in the region that never should have been, and then the elections and building of a new democracy came just as they have, I would still be allowing and giving you a say, no matter how wrong I believed you were. I wouldn't agree, and I wouldn't always listen, but I wouldn't discard you. What we saw yesterday, I believe, is a great example of what democracy looks like. Tens of thousands out there on the streets, loud but peaceful, calling for independence. I'm praying it just doesn't mean something to me, but everyone somehow. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: What absolutely astounds me, Denise, is that you probably don't even see the irony of your own bias. Why does it makes so much difference to you when the government in question is named George Greer and the mob in the street is congregating at a Florida hospice? Perhaps more importantly, why is that labeling people makes it so much easier to dismiss them? |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I think bush wants out as soon as he can, but please understand how dilecate this is. He wants to have the military working functionably and well you heard these arguements before. We are coming home soon, but gradually. Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
quote: quote: Well said gentlemen |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I didn't see anyone in Florida burning anyone in effigy. What I saw in Iraq was a mob scene with violent overtures toward the effigies, and burning flags and whooping it up like wild-eyed madmen for the cameras. What I saw in Florida was prayer vigils and people holding signs quietly and peacefully praying and crying for a grain of sanity and mercy and for someone to help stop the court ordered murder of a disabled person. And little kids being handcuffed for symbolically attempting to do the moral thing, since they couldn't actually do it. I'm not dismissing anybody, or vilifying anybody. They have a newly installed government to take their grievances to, one that well represents all the different factions. And they've been installed officially now for what, about a week or two? Why don't they give that a shot first before resorting to the streets in a display of rebellion. Have they proven that the new government is just a puppet and not legitimate? I think it at least deserves a test of its legitimacy. Put it to the test and work through the system before dismissing it out of hand and heading to the streets. Further down the line if they find no satisfaction in working through the system, then there may be a place for that, sure, but right out of the starting gate, before exercising other options? It just seems a bit premature to me. And unlike Greer, through his actions and inactions over the past five years, they haven't yet proven to be illegimate and corrupt. They may prove to be, and then again they may prove not to be. Only time will tell. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Something I could never figure out is how I am always the fair and unbiased one, and those who hold opposing views are the always the biased ones and fail to see the irony of their position. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Denise, that's only because your perspective doesn't recognize the similarity between setting fire to an effigy and verbally assassinating someone's character. Neither expression of disagreement is physically violent, but they nonetheless share an equal disdain for peace. And both, of course, reflect an absolute and utter conviction they are right. quote: As you well know, Tim, everyone is biased. But, of course, we're not all biased about the same things. I think there's a good reason why surgeons don't operate on their own children, and perhaps why judges don't sit at the bench when the victim was someone they loved. The minute we start caring about something is the moment we stop being fair. The more we care, the more our vision becomes blurred by what we WANT to see, too often obscuring what we SHOULD see. We are creatures forever ruled by emotion. I would never fault someone for being biased, for that would be equivalent to faulting them for caring. If they are a surgeon, however, I will always caution them not to operate, if they are a judge, I will always beg them to recluse themselves, and if they are a writer, a seeker and purveyor of the truth, I will always prod them to look a little more deeply. That, perhaps, is MY bias. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
A bias that has served us well I hope Ron. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I believe it's for the people of Iraq to decide if they want to wait and see once the government and constitution is fully implemented or if they want to take to the streets now, Denise. Again, I certainly can't speak for the people of Iraq, none of us can. But one thing is clear. THAT was democracy in action over the weekend, and I am troubled by anyone who would deny that. I haven't dissed on any of those Schiavo protests, Denise. In fact, I'm so very happy they happened and they were represented in our media. Besides that, effigy burning has always been a symbolic form of protest. Burning an effigy isn't in my taste personally and I wouldn't ever do it as I've seen it always leads to conclusions that that individual wishes that person dead and I don't believe that is the effective way to dissent as I'm sure you agree, but there have always been those "red curry protest" types and at least they didn't use the effigys for starting fires or riots. Those protests were quite peaceful and quite orderly might I add. I personally am a bit saddened you'd dismiss them all as "mobs". A diversity of voices and protesters were represented there just as every protest virtually is. And I'm so glad they could all find common ground together, regardless of their opinions or values, to call for freedom and independence. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
what about verbal effigy's; the villification of Schiavo's husband,judges, officers, doctor's and everyone else supporters could defame? |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I believe I do see what you're meaning here, Raphael. I don't really want to lean too far that way now in that this thread could lean well off topic, but that is a valuable point that could make a great discussion. Words indeed burn as well. Again, I never personally would succumb to effigy burning as a practice of protest because I see no use value or positive benefit or aspect to it, but I do also feel sometimes people take that practice just a bit too seriously, in jumping to conclusions that that person making that gesture must want that real person depicted in the effigy as dead or killed or whatever. It somehow reminds me of what Pedro said in "Napoleon Dynamite": "I don't understand. I mean...they say here you're not allowed to smash piniatas that look like real people...but in Mexico we do it all the time!" I personally would rather choose to whack a piniata shaped like a strawberry or a sun or something of that sort, but just because someone may whack the head off of a piniata shaped as a person doesn't automatically mean they'd want someone who looks like that decapitated. In the end, I do believe effigy-burning is actually a pretty useless and stupid practice personally, but I also believe so many just rush to conclusions about behavior like that and then generalize that sense and that is also unhealthy. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
My use of the word mob was not meant to be derogatory. That's just what I happen to call a large rowdy crowd. That's the word that pops into my mind. My only point was that, in my opinion, they should give the newly installed government a chance before taking it to the streets. Defamation, Raph? Please investigate the facts. They are readily available for anyone who wishes to see them. Read the various depositions of the husband. Read his trial testimonies. There is perjury everywhere. Check out how many violations of Florida law that the judge committed in order to be able to arrive at his various illegal rulings, including failing to recuse himself from the case, five times. Follow the money trail of this cast of characters, particulary the attorney, who received the bulk of the condemned's trust fund (authorized by his friend, the judge) in the husband's effort to have her put to death. Check out the stonewalling of every requested investigation into abuse and neglect by every law enforcement agency, including the Attorney General's office, going back years. Revealing the corruption, collusion and law breaking of those in authority, attempting to kill a helpless disabled person is not defamation or character assassination. And perhaps if more people would focus their energies to holding them accountable for the travesty of justice that they have perpetrated under the guise of 'law', the State ordered killing of a non-criminal by starvation and dehydration for no other reason than that she was disabled, someone who was not even dying, and be as concerned about that outrage to the sensibilities as they seem to be about the 'reputations' of those perpetrators, or show even half the concern for the victim in all of this as they show toward her killers, then perhaps justice might eventually prevail. Most people of the liberal persuasion are against capital punishment, and are against the State ordered executions of criminals, and would most assuredly be up-in-arms if any State tried to starve and dehydrate them to death. But when the same thing happened to an innocent disabled person, they were, for the most part, silent. Why? How can starving and dehydrating a criminal be cruel and unusual but when it is done to a disabled person it is not? I haven't gotten an answer to that yet, not even one that pretends to be plausible. Anyone here care to take a stab at it? And to get back on topic, I don't think anyone would be happier about the troops coming home than the troops. And I hope they do come home soon, and stay home. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
the minute you investigate the plethora of evidence against the administration with regards to this unlawful war, the continued illegal occupation of iraq, and the farce of an election, all of which are part of why the iraqiis are frustrated and taking to the streets. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: No, Denise, what is readily available is your interpretation of the facts. If I had a law degree, I might be more prepared to either agree or disagree with your conclusions. If I had a law degree AND was privy to the legal briefs filed by both concerned parties, I might be even more inclined to agree or disagree. As it is, I don't have the facts, nor the training to judge them. I have opinions, to be sure, but I am very much lacking in facts. I have no doubt you're convinced you're right, Denise. Just as the people you characterize as a mob lacking in patience are probably convinced they are right. The irony is that no matter who is right or who is wrong, you and they are much more alike than you seem willing to recognize. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Awwwww, that's OK, Denise! I understand what you mean. I define the word mob differently than you do but I understand what you mean. I still see it as a very relevant and symbolic protest, but thanks for the word! And I agree with you, aside from the politics, on the Schiavo tragedy. I didn't agree with how the matter got to Congress, but silence is deafening as well. I wish awareness could have blossomed at a more grassroots platform for the case, and I absolutely believe poor Terri was unfortunately starved to death and, without villifying one another, we need to bi-laterally work and see to it this sort of tragedy doesn't repeat itself to those like Terri in Florida, four Oregonians like her who are currently facing similar struggles here, and every other whichwhere. I just didn't agree with that last minute political crossfire is all. You have the right to be upset with the Democrats and most of the "liberal persuasion" if you want, but let's not forget either that opinion polls also indicated about half of self-described conservatives in the polls I've seen also believed in their opinion it was the right thing to do to have her feeding tube removed. Both political sides I believe failed her, simply because she became the victim in a political feud. I just don't believe that's the way to resolve such a conflict and save a life. In fact, when you're picking sides and pulling a ones arms and legs, all it does is tear that case and the individual apart. Anyway, I absolutely agree with your sentiment here. ANY starvation and dehydration is cruel and immoral to me, and I hope we can mature and learn from this devastating experience. And yes, Denise, absolutely about the troops eager to want to return home to their loved ones and families. I pray for that every day, from the bottom of my heart. I want them to be free with their loved ones and the lives they regularly lead here in America just as much as I desire for the Iraqis to celebrate their independence and look for a fresh start. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
"The irony is that no matter who is right or who is wrong, you and they are much more alike than you seem willing to recognize." This should be in CAPS, Ron.  Tim? ROTFL at your comment. Indeed. Doesn't everyone think s(he) is the sane/unbiased one? Denise, re: mobs Then aren't all large crowds mobs? (Did you observe the mob scene outside the Vatican?) |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
not too hard to see two sides to an issue, it is just hard to accept the fact there is any validity to the other side. I believe I recall someone stating categorically that if information came from a certain web site, it was not even worth considering. Even the most biased and ignorant person is occasionally able to make a valid point, heck fire, I even sneak one in once and a great while. Comparing the protesters in Florida to those bused in by a certain cleric to protest in Iraq seems a bit of a stretch to me, other than the fact they were protesters, but I guess it is where your biases lay... Can't say I hold the same view of Denise as far as judges, but then I do not see the attitude from the other side being any less hypocrtical or ironic... while it may be unfortunate to some that the U.S. toppled Saddam, I do not recall many complaining about the box the U.S. was maintaining to keep those who were protesting from being tortured and slaughtered, and the fact if they would have even hinted at protesting a few years ago they literally would have had their ears chopped off if they were extremely lucky. I think it is great they are protesting and have the opportunity to do so... If the U.S. were to leave right now one has to wonder how long they would be protesting... As a side note, saw on one of the big three that we are real concerned with saving a rabbit's life and on one of the unbiased cable outlets that superhuman efforts are being made to keep some dolphins alive with the use of feeding tubes... once again, I guess it is a question of your biases... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Raph, there has been no evidence offered supporting your claims that I find convincing. Ron, I never said that they weren't convinced that they were right, just that they have a new government that they could work in and through, give that a chance first, is all that I was saying. That's what I would do. In that they are entirely different from me. In our passion for what we believe in, I'd say we are the same. I don't think you need to be a lawyer to be able to see the corruption in the Schiavo case. Noah, you should investigate the Zogby polls that I linked to in the other thread. The answers to polls all depend on the questions asked. Kacy, I said mob is what comes to mind when I see large rowdy crowds. Rowdy wouldn't be descriptive of either the crowds at the Vatican or at the hospice. Tim, What's that old saying? A broken clock is even right twice a day! I don't hold ALL judges in disdain. There are a few principled ones left (some even write some pretty good poetry), and there is even one here in Philadelphia who has her head screwed on straight, but they are a dying breed, I am afraid. And rabbits and dolphins, I would suspect, are much cheaper for society to maintain than humans. And they don't collect medicaid! Can anyone answer my previous question because I honestly don't understand it? What would the reasoning process be like to arrive at the conclusion that something is cruel and unusual for a criminal, and therefore illegal, but the same treatment is acceptable, and therefore legal, even desirable, for a disabled person? Because I don't get it. quote: |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Interesting question, Denise. I'd like to see the answer to that one myself.... |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Yes, Denise, I am aware of the Zogby polls you are referring to, where if you ask the question in a different fashion, a unanimous majority believe a patient should not food or water taken away in a situation like that. Again, I really don't want to stray far off topic here, but you do deserve a brief response here. And that does indeed bring up a great point about there's always more than one side or way in how you address or present a question. It's like the topic about gay marriage. Most Americans say they don't believe gay marriage should be legalized. Yet, if you phrase the question differently, in the form of "Do you believe gays and lesbians should be allowed to have these following rights..." and you speak a list of benefits that marriage offers citizens, a unanimous majority say "Yes!" Thank you, Denise, THANK YOU for continuing to reinforce that point. I believe America desperately needs to hear that ringing of truth. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Tim, when you know someone has lied to you in the past, you learn to accept what they say only if it can be corroborated. When corroboration repeatedly fails, sooner or later you stop listening entirely. I'm not sure that means what they say is not worth considering, but at some point it becomes no longer worth the time and effort to consider. I think without some measure of objectivity, credibility is bound to suffer. quote: And I believe you do, Denise. Case in point, most of your arguments assume the family of Terri has a legal standing. In my layman's opinion, I don't think that's the case. Not legally, not historically, not even Biblically. "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and cleave to his wife." Presumably, and I certainly think legally, that works for the woman as well. Terri's family never stopped loving her, but when she chose, of her own free will, to marry Michael Schiavo, their guardianship passed to him. That is the very foundation of marriage. "And they twain shall be one flesh; so then they are no more twain, but one flesh." I don't think it was ever a matter of who was right or who was wrong, Denise. I think it was a matter of who had the legal right to decide. Like it or not, Terri chose Michael to speak in her stead. I think THAT, and not the right or wrong of the decision, is what was decided in court. Then again, I'm not a lawyer either. All I really know about our legal system is that law and justice aren't synonyms. quote: Nor are you likely to get an acceptable answer, Denise, so long as you insist on inserting your own definitions into your questions. Let's change your question slightly and shift the bias to the other side. Why is something considered cruel and unusual for a criminal, but is acceptable for the toenails you clipped the other night? You insist on labeling Terri a disabled person, Denise, but others believe that the real Terri died long ago, even though her living flesh, just like your living toenails, continued to survive. I'm no more a doctor than I am a lawyer, so I clearly can't know the truth. I only know that, when experts can't agree, someone has to decide. Honestly, I'm glad it didn't have to be me. In short, Denise, your question has no answer, because it's the wrong question. It assumes everyone has already agreed on an answer to the REAL question, and clearly that agreement is very far from being reached. Personally, I don't think there was a substantive failure in the legal system. If Terri sat up in bed and refused medical treatment (and a feeding tube IS medical treatment, unless of course you routinely install them on friends and family rather than cook for them), I would be horrified if our system didn't recognize her wishes. Terri could no longer sit up and say that, of course, but she did once say, "I do," effectively instilling her voice on her spouse. Did she make a bad decision in marrying Michael? In trusting him to speak for her? Maybe she did. Still, it was nonetheless her decision to make. I would really and truly like to know the truth. I've heard accusations and allegations from one end of the spectrum to the other, but all are from such patently biased sources that I can't help but question their credibility. I've yet to see anyone even try to be objective. I don't know the truth, and sadly I too often feel that's because no one is willing to tell the truth. They seem much more concerned with proving themselves right.  |
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JoshG Member
since 2004-11-16
Posts 127TX, USA |
Well said Ron, I had been wanting to find the right way to say exactly what you said. Thanks for putting it very diplomatically and respectfully. I think you did a great job of caring for everyones emotions, while stil exposing a bias. Thanks Josh |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You're welcome, Noah. I would also agree with the poll about homosexuals having all the same rights and protections that married people do and that can easily be done through Civil Unions. I disagree with the redefining of marriage, that's all. I disagree, Ron. My arguments are not based on the presumption that her parents had legal standing. They did not, but were given legal standing by Congress, but we know how that turned out. But the fact of the marriage was not the deciding factor either. What should have been the factor, under the law in Florida, in order for the judge to have issued the orders (prior to the last order, which was blatantly illegal) that he did, her wishes on end-of-life issues had to be shown as 'clear and convincing'. What judge worthy of the robe accepts hearsay (something that the husband remembered only 7 years after the fact) as 'clear and convincing' evidence by a person who has several verifiable conflicts of interest, corroborated only by two of his relatives. And after the husband's deposition where he stated that he was the only one privy to such a conversation, his brother and sister-in-law suddenly remembered that they too had heard her comment about such things, just in time for the start of the trial, and rejects the testimony and sworn affidavits of serveral others to the contrary, including serveral affidavits from nurses who cared for Terri who stated that the husband would constantly be asking them "What do you think I should do, we never talked about this stuff, I have no idea what Terri would want"? And he said as much on the Larry King Live show the night of March 18, the day the tube was taken out. He said "We don't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want" toward the end of the second segment. That blows 'clear and convincing' out of the water. Or it would to a judge who was trying to the best of his ability to ascertain the truth. And a feeding tube was just recently deemed 'medical treatment' (it still isn't considered 'life support', or 'extraordinary means') in Florida in 1999. Prior to that it was considered...food and hydration via a gastric or nasal tube, and food and hydration was mandated to be delivered by natural or artifical means, however possible. But whether you consider the feeding tube as medical treatment or not, that is not even the issue with the last order. It didn't order the removal of the feeding tube as the earlier orders did. It ordered the removal of food and hydration, by any means, even natural, which is still today against Florida statutes to do to anybody, even the disabled, particularly the disabled who depend on others for their care and feeding. Florida doesn't so much need new laws (well, a few do need to be changed), but moreso needs judges who obey and honor the laws already on the books. She was disabled Ron. And whether some consider her to have been so disabled as to have been just a 'fingernail', a 'vegetable', or as her husband affectionately referred to her as, a 'houseplant', that we'll never know now since, first her husband and then later the judge, steadfastly refused to give her the rehabilitative therapy and care (against medical advice, since she was showing signs of progress in response to therapy when she briefly had it in the first two years following the incident) that could have led to her improvement, and the medical tests to validate the diagnosis of the husband and the judge and the euthanasia doctor selected by George Felos to testify that she was vegetative. And do we now embark on some sort of sliding scale for the determination of the level of disability, where it is okay to starve and dehydrate those that are deemed severely disabled, even on such flimsy evidence as was produced in Terri's situation? With a 43% error rate in the diagnosis of PVS, who is really qualified to make such life and death decisions? But I do agree with you that law and justice are not synonymous. We should strive to close the gap as much as possible though, in my opinion. Law is supposed to serve justice. If it doesn't, it's worthless. No, worse than worthless, it's deadly. Thanks, Michael. I'd be very interested in someone trying to answer it too. And my question still stands. I think it is very valid, especially in light of the fact that medicine is not an exact science, despite the obvious god-complex of so many physicians, and since especially with PVS, neurologists admit the diagnostic error rate is quite high. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
It is not hard to disbelieve someone, especially if they present a view opposite to one's own. If someone suffers from what I perceive as credibility problems, then it is easy to not believe. It is harder to gleen the truth. On the other hand, if someone presents a view in conformity to your own, then it is easy to believe the truth and harder to distinguish a falsehood. I do not recall the last time I referred to someone as a liar or indicated a person lied. In fact, I consider it a red flag when someone indicates someone else is lying. The other "better look out on this one" is when someone indicates they are fair and unbiased. That in no way means someone is engaging in purposeful deception, other than in self-deception that they know the truth and believe in their own lack of prejudice and bias. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Tim, could you please email me? I have a question to ask you, privately, but I don't have your email address. Thanks. snyder.denise@att.net |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No attempt to answer the question from the liberal perspective? How about this: It is okay to starve and dehydrate the sick, elderly and disabled, but not criminals, because we say so, that's why! Absent a well thought-out, reasoned, and logical explanation, that's all I'm left with. And I don't think one will be forthcoming simply because I don't think there is one that can possibly be made. But I could be wrong. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Denise, what did you do with your toenail clippings last week? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
So are you saying that liberals generally see the elderly, sick and disabled as toenail clippings, less than worthy of the protection of the right to life, which is really only reserved to the able-bodied, able-minded and criminals? Sounds kind of Hitleresque to me. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Denise, I absolutely respect that you have cared so much and from the bottom of your heart have done all you could to save poor Terri's life. I absolutely believe and support those efforts you made and I am heartbroken by the end result. But I think this "liberals see the elderly, sick and disabled as toenail clippings" and "Hitleresque" sort of rhetoric is just well over the line here, and I am saddened that this sort of attitude has developed in response over her tragic loss. I'm a liberal. I absolutely believe that care and compassion of the elderly, sick and handicapped is something that must be done. Liberals didn't kill Terri, Denise, politics in general did. And besides that, according to multiple polls I've reviewed, it's not just liberals who believed it was right for Terri's feeding tube to be removed, many conservatives also shared that position. An ABC News one for instance on March 21st revealed 54% of conservatives supported the removal of the feeding tube, and also revealed 46% of evangelicals believed likewise, while 7 in 10 moderates and liberals agreed. Besides that, we have to confront the difficult truth that since 2003, time and time again, polls consistently reveal a majority of Americans believe the husband has the right to make life decisions in cases like that and backed Michael. I am among the minority who doesn't believe the husband or wife should have the sole say, but I suppose in the end it's just a difficult pill I have to swallow and the most important thing for us to know is see we don't find someone like Terri in that same tragic position. And as far as those Zogby poll results you share are concerned, which I absolutely agree with and am absolutely proud of you for continuing to reinforce those facts to everyone, I also hope you're not bending those poll results in building your liberals-are-against-life case. That poll tells me that when as many as 78% believe food and water should be provided to people like Terri period, most liberals would be among most conservatives and evangelicals who believe in that. The bottom line is we have to cooperate together in approaching this matter rather than generally speaking throwing labels like "Hitleresque" at one another. I'm disappointed too, but I believe we'll only be prone to more disappointments should we fail to unite on life issues. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Noah, I am talking about the liberal perspective in general, I'm not talking about all liberals, and I'm certainly not speaking about you, because some liberals actually did speak out against the killing of Terri, as you did, but not many did, whereas the majority of those of the conservative persuasion voiced their outrage. And I merely posed a question based on Ron's statement about toenail clippings. And I can't know their thought processes until they are willing to share them, which they don't seem willing to do. Given that they deem it cruel and unusal treatment for a criminal, why is it not cruel and unusual treatment for the disabled? But if someone considers someone with a disability or infirmaty as nothing more than toenail clippings and not worthy of continuing to live, well, then yeah, that is Hitleresque, because that was his mindset about the disabled, the retarded, the sick, the aged and infirm. And then he incrementally expanded from there until he was killing anyone and everyone he deemed not worthy to live in the society that he envisioned. It's a dangerous mindset that has to be challenged and named for what it is. But if that is not the general liberal mindset, then I'm willing to be enlightened. And those polls that you mentioned, Noah, misled the people by saying she was on life support (which for most people conjures up images of machines breathing for someone and keeping their heart beating) and in an irreversible coma or PVS state according to doctors (without mentioning that 33+ doctors submitted sworn affidavits to the exact opposite medical opinion), neither of which was accurate. When people were given the FACTS of the case, as Zogby did, the results were quite different. And if, in fact, liberals were well represented in their affirmation that Terri should not have been killed, given the facts, then they need to publicly speak out about that and encourage their representatives to speak out against what happened and join the conservatives, led by Tom DeLay, in calling for a complete investigation into the matter and to also speak out against Dean's proposed plan to use the republicans' involvement in the Schiavo matter to decimate them in 2006 and 2008. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
I'm afraid the toenail clipping comment was a bit esoteric for me. Could this dummy have an explanation of the point being made? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: Tim, Ron was referring back to his earlier statement to me that some viewed Terri only as alive as toenails after they have been clipped...so I guess just as one discards clipped toenails, it's no big deal to discard the Terri's of the world...I guess that's the reasoning. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
*Sigh* The toenail reference is to show how some people, a lot of people, see her. I have no idea what a liberal response is here, I do not think she was disabled, I don't think she was there for at least the last decade or so. Some have talked about the judicial process and the dangers this represents, others have discussed her bolemia (dismissed so easily here though I don't understand why), still others have seen this as a political charade and nothing more. How many of us even knew who Terry was in 2000? With that said, I had no problems keeping her alive, not for her sake, but for the sake of the parents who seemed to have derived some satisfaction from the fact that she was still, technically, alive. My earlier comment on two religions (defined as belief systems) is basically just that. One believes Terry's corporeal existence was a slap in the face to her life (dignity and all that), the other believes that she's still there and there's still a chance. Yet, there's no evidence to believe that, at least according to the transcript summaries. Sure, there's a lot of rumors going around, a lot of conspiracy talk (How big does it go? Fifteen years and how many judges, lawyers, family members, how many doctors, specialists, activists and who else?). Maybe is a great word, but last time I checked it also required a reason. Saying maybe is easy if you can make up stories based on campaign contributions from a company where somebody worked at a certain time -- does the paper trail go any further. Have you ever tried to get ten people to agree on anything? It's hard work and to do it for fifteen years is a very difficult thing to do. What really nailed it for me was Denise's question to me. What would you want if you were in Terry's position? People have badmouthed Michael for living with another woman, but if there was any love between them wouldn't she want him to move on? Doesn't that make sense? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, I have dismissed the allegations of bulimia because there was no proof that she ever had bulimia. No mention of it ever surfaced until Michael hired an attorney in a quest to file a malpractice suit against two of her doctors when her health insurance capped-out. Michael never made mention of it before then, and her parents, brother and sister, and friends and co-workers never saw evidence of it, and neither did her treating physicians (for which they were sued, but later vindicated, because there was no evidence of bulimia.) I don't think most people had a problem, per se, with Michael "moving on", nor do I think Terri would have, if that had been the extent of it, but I wonder how many people would want their spouse to retain guardianship rights over their life and death decision making after they have, in effect, moved on? The problem that I had with it was that his new cohabitative relationship presented a conflict of interest in regard to his wife. Under those circumstances he should not have retained guardianship authority over her life and death decisions, just one of many examples of Judge Greer's lack of prudence and reason. Is it merely coincidence, for example, that Schiavo's effort to remove Terri's feeding tube to end her life, and the hiring of a euthenasia advocate attorney, came at the same time as the announcement of his engagement to Jodi? He stated his wishes to be free to marry Jodi. A divorce would have given him that freedom, if that was all he wanted, would it not? Should it present a problem to anyone that Jodi and Michael are partners in their own life insurance company, and that their life insurance company, and associated holding companies, held fund raisers for the hospice, and that there is the possibility that they entered into a viatical settlement, with either the hospice board or Felos, in which the holder of a policy receives a cash settlement in exchange for the third party becoming the holder and receiving the benefits when the 'insured' dies, and that the value of the policy delcines the longer the 'insured' continues to live? Or that Senator King, and Gus Bilrakis, both members of the hospice board, were instrumental in the passage of the amendment that changed the legal definition of life prolonging procedures to add “including artificially provided sustenance and hydration which sustains and restores or supplants a spontaneous vital function”, that became law on October 1, 1999. And that Sheriff Rice, a friend and employer of Schiavo and Jodi's mother, and George Felos were also on the board of directors at the hospice, and friends and campaign contributors, all, of Judge Greer? Should any of these issues raise a red flag of suspicion in reasonable people? And if, in your opinion, you find that there was no evidence to support that she was 'there' and that there was hope, where is the evidence that her corporeal existence was a slap in the face to her life (dignity and all that)? And don't forget, Judge Greer dismissed out-of-hand any evidence that Terri was 'there' and shouldn't have her feeding tube pulled even to the extent of firing her first guadian ad litem, who found that Michael was severely conflicted and shouldn't retain guardianship. I think there is vastly more evidence of corruption and conflict of interest of those on the side who were seeking to end Terri's life than there ever was of the allegation of bulimia, or the diagnosis of PVS, or her alleged 'wishes'. And all the 'judges' is a specious claim, since NONE of the judges ever investigated Greer's findings of fact. And I think a probe into these matters is more than warranted. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Had to smile at the "sigh". I guess one for two isn't too bad. The poor attempt at interjecting a bit of lightness to the philosophy thread was recognized but my attempt at subtle sarcasm failed. I considered the response a tad flippant and somewhat insensitive under the circumstances. I had a friend die from cancer a few days ago who requested she be removed from oxygen as she was ready to die. I doubt I would have appreciated it if someone would have came up to me and said, don't feel bad, she is just toe nail clippings now. The issue in Florida is not an easy one as issues of life and death generally are not. My fear is a we are on a slippery slope and I may not know where we need to anchor on the side of the hill, but I don't want to be at the bottom of the hill. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
There is proof. Potassium depletion. I don't understand why you reject that. Strangulation does not cause that. Denise, I am still your friend, no matter what, but you have to state the fact, not pretend you know them. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Tim, are you talking to me? Don't confuse a reaction that you didn't want with a lack of understanding. I know you're tricks at least as well as you know mine. At any rate, it's probably best not to attempt sarcasm when grieving over a friend. Or when you don't understand or refuse to understand the intent of a metaphor. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I get depleted of potassium very easily myself, Brad, even almost passed out once, and bulimia has nothing to do with it. It proves nothing but that she had a low potassium level. She also did not have a heart attack, secondary to bulimia, according to the E.R. discharge report. Her enzyme levels were normal and there was no damage at all to the heart muscle. She also had a stiff rigid neck according to the E.R. discharge report, consistent with strangulation (only discovered by her parents in 2002 when their attorney obtained a few medical documents during Discovery, over Michael Schiavo's protestations). The police report had recommended that the case be sent to the homicide division for further investigation as a possible attempted homicide, but it never made it to the homicide division, and nobody knows why it didn't. Maybe Michael's friend Sheriff Rice intervened. But neither one is talking, so maybe we'll never know for sure. She also had 17 bone fractures, some quite serious, including a broken femur and back, in various stages of healing, prompting the physician to notate that she had a history of severe trauma, but only discovered at the time of her admission to a nursing facility about 50 weeks after the incident when the admitting physician ordered a full body scan, and who was incredulous that one had never been ordered or requested prior to that in light of the fact that she gave evidence of pain during therapy (again, only discovered by her parents in 2002 during Discovery). In light of these facts there should have been an investigation a long time ago. Maybe someday there will be. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I don't speak for anyone but myself, Denise, and I certainly would never try to speak for a group so nebulously defined. This issue, like most important issues, shouldn't be an "us agin them" thing. People who want to root and boo on that basis should get themselves a sports team and stay out of politics. We weren't talking about the elderly, sick or disabled, so no, I wasn't comparing them to toenail clippings. We were talking about Terri Schiavo, who was neither elderly, nor sick, nor disabled, and as Tim rightly reminded me, my toenail clipping remark was inappropriate to the situation. It was also poorly conceived, since the remains of the living correlate badly to the remains of the dead. So let me try again, Denise, to answer your question. I believe Terri was afforded a different standard of legal protection than criminals for the same reason we don't (generally) put criminals in a box and bury them. I haven't heard anyone complain about Terri's treatment since she stopped breathing (even though an autopsy seems far more callous to me than removing a feeding tube). Does anyone really think the ability to breath is the sole criteria for life? I will certainly agree that we need to be VERY careful in establishing the point at which hope is abandoned. Nonetheless, that point must be established. Science and technology have long since blurred the boundaries of death beyond easy recognition, and while I find myself very uncomfortable with the directions being explored (I actually trust doctors less than I trust lawyers and politicians), there is no possible way we can just close our eyes and return to simpler times. Decisions must be made. Personally, I think the Terri Schiavo case was less about life and death than it was about the responsibility of making those decisions. Who is to take responsibility for another when responsibility MUST be taken? The courts decided, rightly I believe, that a freely chosen spouse supercedes the vagaries of a few shared strands of DNA. Blood may be thicker than water, but marriage vows -- if they are to mean anything at all -- must be thicker still. Everything else, in my opinion, is wholly and completely irrelevant. The allegations and suppositions are confetti thrown to obscure and shroud the only thing that really matters. You don't have to believe Terri's husband deserved to speak for her. You don't have to believe he acted honorably and in her best interests. Terri believed those things, and that should be enough. quote: You're absolutely right, Tim. That Denise uses inaccurate and inappropriate nouns to describe Terri Schiavo is a poor excuse for me to push the scale in the other direction. You have my apologies and my condolences. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
p.s. I already deleted several comments that were directed at posters instead of at posts. Those not wise enough to recognize the difference should probably remain silent voluntarily, lest their silence become involuntary. I'm growing very tired of people who take these things both too seriously and too personally. Play nice, or play somewhere else. |
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Cloud 9 Senior Member
since 2004-11-05
Posts 980Ca |
Ladies and Gentlemen hold on to your seats!!!! I just poked in here and read all of these responses. Ron......  You have made valid points. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ron, There is no evidence that Terri, under the circumstances of her husband having moved on with his life with another woman and children, would have wanted her husband to continue speaking for her. He violated those marriage vows himself going back to at least 1992 with the first romantic relationship he had after Terri's incident. Understandable, perhaps, but he did violate his marriage vows. Why should he then retain any of the privileges of those vows, or any of the authority that those marriage vows may have granted? There is evidence based on her religious beliefs, and based on comments to friends, that she did not take to herself the right to end her own life, under any circumstances, nor would she, by extension, grant that right to another. She disagreed vehemently with Karen Ann Quinlin's parent's decision in removing her from the respirator. In refusing advanced medical technology when one is terminal, yes, I agree, decisions must be made, and it is legitimate in such cases, as with Tim's friend, when considering whether or not to extend the dying or to allow nature to take its course. I believe it is a highly personal decision though, and not one that should be mandated by society or law. That is an entirely different topic than withholding food and water from someone who is not in a terminal condition. Advances in medical technology are not relevent to Terri's situation because she was not taking advantage of any advanced medical technology. Feeding tubes have been around for over a hundred years, at least. I also believe that there was enough evidence and testimony and sworn affidavits over the years (from family, friends, doctors and nurses) to, if not convince the most resolute skeptic, at least produce a vast amount of reasonable doubt, regarding the husband's assertion that she was nothing more than a 'houseplant'. She made attempts at communicating verbally. She opened her eyes on command. She always smiled when her mother spoke to her. She swayed her head back and forth to the music that she liked, and frowned at the music that she didn't care for. She followed people and objects with her eyes. In her earlier days at the two previous nursing homes where she resided, before she was moved to the hospice five years ago (an illegal act since she wasn't terminal with less than six months to live) and where her husband issued the order that she could never be taken from her room, she would sit with the nurses at the nurses station and say "Hi" to the people coming and going. She was also able to say 'yeah' and 'no' and 'pain', back when she was still receiving speech therapy. I would classify her as mentally disabled, and don't think I am misusing the term. Why does 'responsibility' have to be taken about life and death decisions when one is not terminal, and when there is evidence that someone is not merely an empty shell of a human being, who just happens to be able to breathe? In this case, for it to have been legitmate for the judge to order the removal of her feeding tube, he had to find, in the affirmative, two things, and two things only: 1. Under Florida Law, was she PVS and 2. In the absence of a written directive, could it be established, by clear and convincing evidence, that she wished to have the feeding tube removed. The judge erred in his findings of fact since she did not even meet the definition of the PVS diagnosis in the Florida Statute, and he accepted hearsay evidence, by the husband and two of his relatives, and discounted the testimony to the contrary by several others. And I have no doubt that a de novo hearing would have found that he erred. But that is even beside the point because his final decree did not authorize the removal of an artifical feeding tube (remember, one leg of this case was that he found that Terri wouldn't wish to have anything 'artificial') but instead ordered the withholding of any and all nutrition and hydration, by any means, even by natural means (and she could swallow, even if only minimally, and numerous doctors stated that if she had been allowed to have therapy over the past twelve years she wouldn't even have needed a feeding tube). And he increased her suffering when she was dying by even forbidding the minimal hospice comfort care of a wet sponge for her mouth and lips. I can find no justification for his orders, legally or morally, and I can't see his actions as anything other than criminal. And I can't see his order, or the mounds of evidence of perjury, corruption and collusion as irrelevent. And I can't help but take this seriously and personally. I don't think it's possible to take something like this too seriously or personally. I can't see how one cannot when they investigate all the circumstances. But I'll play nice. And I agree, this shouldn't be an 'us vs. them' argument. That's not profitable. And I distrust the medical profession SO MUCH that I refuse to register as an organ donor. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Does anyone really think the ability to breath is the sole criteria for life? You got me....guilty here.  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
We posted at the same exact time, Michael. Talk about being in sync!  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
forgot to eat dinner....running downstairs for a quick snack...my husband hasn't refused me food and water yet, so I'll take advantage while I still can!  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
There are a few interesting articles referenced here pertaining to this discussion, one about the 'vegetative state' and one below it regarding 'brain dead'. http://www.blogsforterri.com/ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Tim, I think that a good place to anchor on the side of the hill would be to make it illegal to deprive anyone of nutrition and hydration, the terminal and non-terminal alike. The truly terminal will die even with nutrition and hydration, and less painfully, since starvation and dehydration cause severe pain, and for the non-terminal, well, I can only see it as a direct act to end their existence, since no disease or condition will end it. In the terminal, it has become an accepted way to make them die more quickly, and in the non-terminal, it's just a way to make them die, period. I think we will find ourselves at the bottom of the hill quickly if we don't put an end to this barbaric practice. |
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