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Where is the outrage?
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Where is the outrage? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648
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What rights do we really have in this country when even the most basic, the right to life, is not honored and protected and fought for? First it was the unborn, now it is the 'inconvenient' sick in our society. If this woman is allowed to be killed by judicial decree, then every other liberty that we fight for is in vain. We might as well just give up and give in to the enemies without and within. Because our liberty will just be a farce. This is the slippery slope that was created by Roe vs. Wade. When will we wake up? quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40641 quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42827 |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Are we going to go back to putting the elderly out to sea? Seriously, this burns me up.. my cousin was born without being able to walk, and he has limited use of his hands. He is, however, a wonderful singer, drummer, and the pastor of a church. He leads people and touches so many, but the doctors said he wouldn't live to be 5 years old. He is married and has two healthy sons as well. Even if people don't believe in God, they can't look at these things and think that science is an absolute answer. There is something we don't understand about these cases... every life has a purpose, and it is NOT our right to decide that a life has lost its worth. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I don't know the facts of this case yet, but the question remains. If a right cannot be exercised, whose responsibility is it to assist in exercising that right? How far are you willing to take this? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you guys. A person should be kept alive. The question in the back of my head is always, how much money are you willing to spend for your beliefs? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, in this particular case a jury awarded something in excess of a million dollars for her rehabilitation and lifelong care. Shortly afterwards her husband ceased her rehabilitive therapy, forbade even minimal health care, such as dental care and cleaning and the administration of antibiotics, etc., and transferred her to a custodial nursing home, owned by a powerful figure in the euthenasia movement, who is a relative of the lawyer that the husband hired, and a friend of the judge, or vice-versa, I don't remember whom is exactly connected to whom and how, but there is a connection between all three. The courts have never even allowed a court appointed attorney to look out for her interests in any of the hearings. Most of the money that had been awarded for her care has been spent on attorney's fees in the husband's legal fight to have her starved to death, and her parents are on the verge of bankruptcy due to their court battles to prevent his goal of killing their daughter. She's not on machines to keep her alive. This is not a case of a machine breathing for someone or a machine pumping someone's heart. She has a simple feeding tube. The husband remains the legal guardian despite the fact that he has a conflict of interest, aside from the money, in that he long ago became involved with another woman and has had two children by her. They are living together as if they were husband and wife, and despite the mounting evidence that suggests the husband was possibly responsible for Terry's loss of consciousness in the first place (evidence of spousal abuse, x-rays of broken bones, evidence of injuries not consistent with someone simply passing out and being derprived of oxygen) that the courts won't look into and that the police won't investigate, I guess due to the passage of time). How much would I be willing to spend? Every last penny available to me, just as I am sure that you would if this were your daughter. For what is money compared to human life and the protection of our right to it? |
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Capricious Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 89California, USA |
Looks to me like the money to maintain this woman has already been provided by a previous legal settlement. I am curious why the girl's parents have not filed for divorce on her behalf citing adultery on the part of the husband. Conflict of interest indeed. I presume that the remainder of the monies awarded for his wife's care will default to the husband in the event of her death. Has the family exhausted all appeals? This is a death sentence, as surely as if she were on death row, especially in the absence of a living will. Denise, I will have to respectfully disagree with you regarding your blaming this case on Roe v Wade. The circumstance of a mother with child is a unique one, where the burden of childbirth cannot be shifted to another. In this case, the woman could be remitted to the care of her parents, or even a state ward. She is not inseparably connected to her husband, neither is she physically dependent upon him specifically for her survival (anyone may administer her feedings). No one's rights but hers are being violated here, although I am certain her husband feels some "right" to her money that he is so doggedly determined to starve her to death to acquire. If it were my decision, I'd have the husband arrested for attempted murder. That a panel of judges have chosen to assist him in this undertaking is absolutely outrageous. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Capricious, The parents have filed to become her guardian, and if that weren't acceptable to the court, they had told the court to then make her a ward of the state. The court has smacked down their every request, even the request that she have an attorney to represent her interests in the multitudinous hearings, and the request to review the spousal abuse evidence. The court has also denied their filings regarding the husband's suitability to continue being her guardian due to his evident conflict of interest. It seems to me that the fix is in on this with the judge, the euthenasia advocate, the husband and his attorney (who is also a euthenasia advocate). They have also appealed to the husband to divorce their daughter, grant them guardianship, even with the stipulation that he can even keep the rest of the money. They don't want the money, they want their daughter. He turned them down. It seems he will not be satisfied with anything less than her death. They can't file for divorce on her behalf I guess because the husband is the guardian in the eyes of the law, the one who calls all the shots and makes all the decisions, not them. The parents have no legal standing to speak for her or to do anything on her behalf in the eyes of the law, to my understanding. Maybe that is different from state to state, I don't know. Of course there are differences between this and abortion, but there is a similarity...the devaluing of human life in the eyes of society. That is the slippery slope. It started with abortion. Now in one country (can't remember which one) doctors have the right to kill babies and children, ones already born, if they are sick or disabled and don't meet some 'standard of life' quality. And in this country I've heard that euthenasia is practiced on the sick elderly more than most might realize. Keep slowly upping the morphine dose until they stop breathing (morphine depresses the repiratory function). I guess that is sort of like putting them out to sea, LoveBug, just a little less obvious, even viewed as compassionate if they happen to be in a lot of pain from something. Of course, I don't think you'd have many doctors publicly admitting to this practice due to fear of prosecution in some places. Seems like they wouldn't have a problem with these Florida judges, though. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: LOL. That particular slippery slope, the devaluing of human life, started somewhere back around Abel and Cain, Denise. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I have a cold and a headache. Should I blow my brains out? Every life is full of pain, and some much more than others. However, who decides how much is too much? Who has that right? Who says that I DON'T have the right to blow my brains out over a cold... common sense tells you that I shouldn't, right? What about a living woman? She is unable to speak or interact. So are many autistic children. Do they deserve to die? She can't walk or stand on her own. Neither can my cousin, the pastor of a church and father of two. Does he deserve to die? Are their lives worth any less than ours? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: One of the differences I see though, Ron, aside from it being the first murder of passion (committed in the throes of anger produced by jealousy), is that Cain's act was not enshrined as an acceptable practice in the ridding oneself of an incovenience. It was murder and was viewed and recorded as murder, and as an unacceptable behavior. The slippery slope comes into play when something previously not condoned by society, and the laws of a society, becomes acceptable, and then from that, even more things that were previously unacceptable become acceptable. It's a snowball effect. From the decree of judges that States could not pass laws against abortion, we started with abortions being acceptable in the first trimester only back in the 70's, and then 25 years later we had degenerated to the point of partial birth abortions, that are performed at or around the expected time of delivery...doctors just have to reach in to turn the baby around to ensure that the head is inside the womb when they kill it with their instruments, then it isn't considered murder, otherwise it is. Same baby, same healthy condition, same viability, just a different positioning of the baby's head makes the difference between an accepted surgical procedure and murder. And now one country (Denmark, I think) has legalized the killing of infants and children who are in one way or another disabled, physically or mentally. And now we in this country are at the point where judges are decreeing that a woman can be legally starved to death because she is brain damaged and on no life-supporting machines whatsover other than a feeding tube. In my opinion, this is what happens when a society forsakes the revealed standards of God (that God says in the Bible that He reveals to every person, innately, we don't have to be taught them), and prefer instead to turn away from that knowledge that God has implanted within and become our own gods, to do what seems expedient in our own eyes (relativistic morality). quote: Sadly, some people seem to think so, LoveBug. But this particular woman does interact. Her eyes follow people and moving objects. She reacts to sounds, she can sit in a chair. She attempts to communicate by making gutteral sounds. She smiles, laughs and cries. She isn't the 'vegetable' that some try to make her out to be. She is brain-damaged, yes, and operates at a different level of consciousness, and several doctors have testified on her behalf that there is every reason to expect her to improve, with the therapy that the jury awarded money was intended to provide for her. But the courts keep ruling in favor of the husband's position, and the doctor's hired by his lawyer that depict her as a hopeless vegetable, despite the obvious evidence to the contrary. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Denise~ You already know how this case breaks my heart~ While there are MANY of us who have expressed outrage at what is happening to Terri ... it seems that all pleas for Terri's care and well-being, and the right to CONTINUE to live, have fallen on a court of deaf ears ! It just tears us up to see that the judicial system would deny Terri's parents the right to care for their daughter for all her future needs~ Doesn't make sense ... not even to attorney's and judges I've discussed this with~ Many of us are still working, trying to use our voices to get the right ear to HEAR our outrage ...~ This morning the pastor of my church led us in prayerful reminder that Terri is very much in need of all the prayers we can muster~ Miracle ? That looks like what it's going to take to spare her life~ |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"Cain's act was not enshrined as an acceptable practice in the ridding oneself of an incovenience." Exactly, and I also agree with your comparison to abortion. It shows the trend in this nation, and it's frightening. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
It does seem that a miracle is what is needed in the face of this utter disregard and disdain for the sanctity of human life by these judges and attorneys who would sacrifice a human live on their agenda altar. Yes, it is frightening and very sad. And none of us are safe from similar situations if they set a precedent with this case. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I don't see this so much as a sanctity of human life issue as a simple issue of rights. If she did not have any advance directives written (IE, a DNR (do not resucisstate) order) she has a full right to all life saving procedures. Now, in reading the timeline on the official family website, it said that her husband did get her DNR status- however, I'm not sure, legally that being a DNR would in any way require/allow taking away procedures you've already had done, like her feeding tube. There is a DNR comfort care- nothing is done to treat a terminally ill patient, including feeding tubes, antibiotics, etc. But if there is no clear indication that Terri did not want to live this way, it would, legally and humanistically, make sense to err on the side of life. Now, on the issue of eauthanasia... I work in a nursing home. I watched my grandmother die, and I recently saw my mother struggle through a long period of disability that ended in death. I fully support the right of the individual to choose a painless and dignified death over a prolonged one. Key word- that individual, not their family or spouse. You know what else? I see cancer all the time... and I don't believe for one second that it is cruel to provide palliative pain relief based more on effectiveness than safe dosage range in the end stages of cancer or other progressive and terminal conditions. I think if the individual had agreed to it beforehand (as most will have had time to think about before becoming that severely ill) it is a humane and decent thing to do. I'd rather go painlessly in my sleep than with a drowning sensation because there is a tumor the size of a football in my lungs. I think that the euthanasia camp can go too far- but then, so can the right-to-life (any life, at all costs) camp. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
And that's the rub here, hush, where the line has been crossed by her husband with the DNR comfort care order. She is not terminally ill. She is disabled. And the reason the jury award was for such a huge amount was because experts testified that she would have to be cared for, to some extent, even with rehabilitative therapy, for the rest of her life and that her life expectancy was projected to be similar to that of a non-disabled person. It is a dangerous precedent that these judges are trying to establish with this case, making it legal to withhold nourishment from a disabled person, starving them, somone who doesn't meet some 'quality of life' test, but with an otherwise normal life expectancy. It appears that they may be successful. Very frightening, but more than that, very, very sad. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
To be honest, this case baffles me. She's been in a coma for 13 years, there are some reports that she is on life support (it was a blog so perhaps inaccurate). Nevertheless, there's no reason to believe she's there. Yet, given the outpouring of support for this case at least on the internet, I don't understand why the guardianship and responsibility simply aren't given to someone else? From a secular point of view, if she's not there it doesn't hurt anyone to keep the body going (as long as you're willing to pay for it.) |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Actually much of the mainstream media that have even featured the story have also said that she is on life support, which of course, to most people means machines breathing for her and keeping her heart beating, and not merely a feeding tube. I guess food can be considered life support, since without it we die. This is a misconception that the husband's attorney keeps alive and well. Ignorance fosters his agenda. It's much more palatable to compassionately "pull the plug" to put someone out of their misery, than it is to admit that what you are actually attemtping to do is starve someone to death, creating misery and a slow painful death. He was on Greta VanSusteran the other night calling on all those who love the Constitution to stand by Terri's "right to die" and to stand against those who oppose her right to die who will be holding prayer vigils and demonstrations, characterizing them as extremists (and by implication haters of the Constitution?) What these "extremists" oppose is her being allowed to be starved to death by her husband, with the sanction of the court. And I don't find a "right to die" in the Constitution anyway, but some lawyers and judges seem to find anything they want to find in the Constitution. But I do think that she is 'there' to some extent. She is operating at some level of consciousness. Science just doesn't have all the answers. In my opinion, guardianship hasn't been turned over to someone else because the husband and the courts want her dead. I think the courts want to set a precedent for euthenasia in cases such as this, and as for the husband...I don't know, maybe he doesn't want to take the chance that she might "come out of it" some day and start speaking? |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
If they honor this, than suicide is technically legal. Convinience is a common theme to such taboo. Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'Nevertheless, there's no reason to believe she's there.' If I'm not mistaken, she can respond (in a limited degree) to her mothers commands, such as to blink, or smile. I've seen videos featuring her, both on TV and in school, and there is every reason to believe she's "there." Even someone who stares at a ceiling all day without the ability to move or speak could still be thinking somewhere inside. I care for the elderly and disabled, and I have known people who can do no more than shift their gaze to look at me about once a week, and people who can't even do that. Sure, we can't prove that they're "there," but we can't prove that they aren't except in the case of persistent vegitative states. I mean, is someone with demetia who keeps repeating "The cats are here! The cats are here!" really "there?" Should we kill them, too? Sorry, that makes me sound a little more extreme/determined on this issue than I really am. The point isn't whether you are there or not- the point is whether you wanted to be kept alive or not, and whether, should your heart stop, you would or would not want to be recussitated. A feeding tube, for the most part, is a standard form of life support for someone who will be disabled long-term. Unless she specifically stated beforehand (and in this case, to someone other than her husband who is suspected of putting her in this condition) that she would not want to be alive in these conditions, it is immoral not to. And while a DNR-CC code status will allow for prevention of the placement of a feeding tube, I don't really see how it can be legal (or in any way humane) to take it out and, yes, as Denise says, allow someone to starve to death. Assuming that the ill, elderly, and comatose cannot feel pain is, in my opinion, just as bad as assuming that being black means someone is property. Which, incidentally, is why I support DNR orders, as well as euthanasia... when the DNR is chosen either by the patient or a caring family member who clearly has no ulterior motives, or when the euthanasia is chosen by the patient. If he really wants Terri dead in a humane way, he should try tfor a lethal injection. Still immoral, but far less miserable a death, IMO. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Oh, to get back to Denise- Someone who suffers a stroke is not terminally ill. But if all I could do was lay in bed all day with contracted arms, unable to speak or write to express myself, and unable to eat... I would hope my family would be kind and unselfish enough to recognize that when it's time for me to go... it's time for me to go, not to be CPR'ed back for more suffering. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Those are decisions, hush, that are personal preference and conscience issues that can vary greatly from one person to the next and should only be acted upon by written direction of the patient, through means of a "Living Will" or "Will to Live" document. Absent that, the family and the medical and legal system should always act to protect the life of the patient. Some excerpts from an article: quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42957 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I am sitting here crying reading the latest round of court filings and denied appeals. I just don't understand how these courts and judges can get away with this. Are judges above the laws that they are supposed to be interpreting? How can they blatantly ignore the statutes that are already on the books in Florida for the protection of the incapacitated like Terri? Why in her case are they simply ignoring those laws that are supposed to guarantee those protections? Why can't somebody do something to hold them accountable to those statutes and prevent them from doing this? What law are they interpreting that allows them to decree that an innocent person can be starved to death? They wouldn't allow this to happen to a convicted criminal on death row. Why is she not entitled to the same due process as a criminal? Her husband has stated his intention to issue the order to stop feeding and hydrating Terri at 1 pm tomorrow. Why can't somebody do something? I don't understand it. I just don't understand it. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The latest news is that a Stay has been issued today until Friday while Judge Greer considers whether he will allow medical tests to try to determine Terri's brain activity level, since new testing breakthroughs have recently been developed. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43006 Another commentary on this heartbreaking situation: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42991 Contact information if you wish to let your voice be heard on Terri's behalf: Governor Jeb Bush Office of The Governor Florida Capitol Building, PL-05 Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001 (850) 488-7146 (850) 488-4441 jeb.bush@myflorida.com Attorney General Charlie Crist Office of Attorney General State of Florida The Capitol Tallahassee, FL 32399-1050 (850) 414-3990 Fax: (850) 487-2564 ag@oag.state.fl.us State Attorney Bernie McCabe 14250 49th Street North Clearwater, FL 33762 (727) 464-6221 LOCAL MEDIA Mr. Bill Levesque, The St. Pete Times -- levesque@sptimes.com The St. Pete Times -- letters@sptimes.com The Tampa Tribune -- tribletters@tampatrib.com 970 WLFA AM Radio -- news@970wfla.com Mailing Addresses: Tampa Tribune Letters to the Editor P.O. Box 191 Tampa, FL 33601-4405 St. Pete Times Letters to the Editor P.O. Box 1121 St. Pete, FL 33731 Please pray for Terri's protection and for strength for her family during this emotionally trying time, and also for a change of heart for her husband. Thank you. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
And here is another commentary: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/terencejeffrey/tj20050223.shtml |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Again, I can not reconcile a professed faith in a worthwhile afterlife and the fierce opposition to letting someone in such a condition as is Terri Schiavo, (who I assume as no great burden of sins to carry), die. . . It seems to me to betray a disbelief at the core. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
"If the legal system kills Terri Schiavo, none of us is safe. The system is big and powerful and, if it wants you dead, you will be. Read it and weep." Well, if they do go through with this, I think it's a terribly unfair decisiion, but the idea that courts are going to somehow look through medical records and start killing any of us that are inconvenient is just silly. It's not like the courts themselves went looking this- it was brought to them. So maybe the moral here should be to worry about what your next of kin might say or want- and never leave it to chance- get your living will. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 I apologize for my late input into this thread. I truly care and am outraged by this from the bottom of my heart, but just have had difficulty expressing my emotions to this issue, because it is all such a tragic mess. What troubles me most of all is how the media presents Terri in the news updates as a weak, motionless, almost dead like a fish woman with her mouth gaping open and her eyes frozen wide. I am just angered by that. This is NOT, I REPEAT NOT, how Terri physically feels and acts now in company with her parents and loved ones. There's overwhelming evidence, according to her parents and others, that she is able to communicate to her parents, talking fairly fluently, able to move, etc. Look, no one can argue that she has a condition and she is handicapped to some degree. But I for one CAN NOT TOLERATE OR ACCEPT this pulling the plug on her life, especially when her loved ones won't stand for it. Isn't there some way our outrage can actually be organized together in fashion? Isn't there some petition out there supposedly like the hunting of seals one anyone can sign to ship off to these Florida legislators and let them know once and for all America will not stand for the death and punishment of our handicapped citizens? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Is euthanasia necessarily a punishment? Once again, I think this is more about legal rights- the legal right to choose death or life- than it is about human right to life. Keeping someone alive might be just as much a punishment. The problem is, if they haven't already told us, and they can't tell us now, we just don't know. Suffering is subjective. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
John, I think most people who believe strongly in an afterlife also believe strongly that the life we are given here on earth, though temporary, and often times less than 'perfect', is a precious gift endowed by God. It is also one of our protected rights under the Constitution. I don't think it is contradictory to believe in and look forward to the afterlife, when the time comes, while at the same time cherishing the life we have in the here and now. I think we will find ourselves where we don't want to be if we allow the courts (or someone who will benefit in some way by our demise) to start deciding whose life is of value and whose isn't. I don't think that is a judgment that we are capable of making, and therefore shouldn't make, that a disabled person would be better off in the afterlife. We aren't qualified to play God. And why stop there? Maybe the poor and disadvantaged would enjoy the afterlife a lot more than their sub-existence here on earth. Should we deny them food and water, "for their own good"? I'm sure you can see the potential for abuse when we set ourselves up as judgers of the quality of life of others. Hush, but I think a very dangerous precedent could be set if Terri is allowed to be legally starved to death by the courts. Not too long ago it would have been unthinkable for the 'plug to be pulled' without a written advance directive by the patient. Now it is common place for next of kin, or even a doctor without the knowledge or consent of the family, even without something in writing, to make those decisions. I can see it happening in the not too distant future that even if someone has something like a "Will to Live" document specifically outlining their wish to live under certain conditions, that it could very well be overridden by a court order, if they or a family member, think they know better ("surely Uncle Charlie couldn't possibly have meant that he would have wanted to live like this". ) Last Will and Testaments are overturned routinely by courts nowadays, if it is to some powerfully connected person's or organization's financial advantage, so why not Living Wills? Lawyers like to say "they (wills) aren't written in stone". Well, they should be considered as written in stone. If not, why have them, afterall? Yes, suffering is subjective, I agree. We can't speak for someone else if they can't communicate their wishes to us, because we just don't know how they are perceiving, and handling, their situation. As for euthenasia, I can only speak for my own convictions. I don't agree with "active" euthenasia, such as assisted suicide, lethal injections, withholding of food and water, etc. Noah, you can contact the governor of Florida, the Attorney General, and the news outlets. I don't know of any petitions, per se, but there may be some available at some of the blog sites. And most importantly, you can continue to pray for her. Terri has been presented poorly in much of the media, that's true. But I think the truth of her condition is coming to light. There are some video clips that you can view at terrisfight.org that show how full of life she actually is. She does attempt to communicate, though not fluently. She was able to speak a few words in the beginning, but after 10 plus years of being denied therapy, she has lost that ability. But she still keeps trying. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Odds are, sadly, that her broken bones before she was admitted, and her mended bones during her semi-vegetative state, will remain sealed, and her husband will get away with spousal abuse, approved murder, and adultry. In short, his little inconvenience and roadblock will be removed, and he'll be able to marry the mother of his children, and he would have pulled the blinds on many people. I wonder how his new wife will fare when he tires of her and seeks solace on another bosom. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here are some more interesting links that I came upon tonight. http://www.ginzell.net/florida_law_vs_scientology_policy.html http://www.ginzell.net/terris_wish_or_hubbards_hurrah.html http://www.crosswalk.com/news/weblogs/mohler/1227005.html?view=print http://www.apfn.org/apfn/terri.htm Something more sinister is at work here, I think, Ali, than a husband who wishes to rid himself of a roadblock to his future happiness with a new wife. He could have that by divorcing Terri. Her parents have already stated that if he did so, he could keep whatever money is left of her funds. Although I do believe that he fears what would happen if Terri were able to start speaking about what happened the night of her collapse. The connection to Scientology has answered alot of the unanswered questions, in my mind anyway. And they seem to own the Clearwater, Fla. area, and many of the powerful citizens in it (politicians, judges, lawyers, etc.) I've done a lot of reading about them tonight. I never knew their philosophies about the disabled before, and their quest for the "perfect new world order", without the sick and disabled bringing down society. I was absolutely chilled to the core reading some of Ron L. Hubbard's statements and philosophies, and reading the tactics that they use against those who oppose them. So much about what has happened, and is still happening, in Terri's case makes perfect sense now. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
And here's another interesting article. http://www.theempirejournal.com/doh_scandal_grounds_for_new_trial_in_schiavo_case.htm |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ali, here is the link to her bone scan (the one Judge Greer said isn't relevent to Terri's situation today. Why? I guess because he says so.) http://www.ginzell.net/terri_schiavo_bone_scan.html And another one that seems to show the influence that the Church of Scientology seems to have over lawyers, judges and officials in Clearwater. http://www.ginzell.net/scientology_clearwater_bar_association_judge_greer.html |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I found a link for a petition to save Terri, Noah. I urge everyone to sign it. There is also contact information that will display after signing the petition if you wish to do more. http://www.cfra.info/213/petition.asp Thank you. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here is a link to a letter from Terri's father, and below it a plea to the governor, and also a letter from Randall Terry who is helping the family in their effort to save Terri from court ordered starvation. http://www.conservativealerts.com/terri-tj.htm |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Thanks for all the info... I hope something can be done.. Love's a lovely lad |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You're welcome, LoveBug. Judge Greer has ordered Terri's feeding tube removed and has set the date at March 18 in order to allow her parents time to appeal. I hope and pray that they are successful and that someone with authority will actually investigate this horrible situation and allegations of abuse and will remove Michael Schiavo as her guardian. In my reading of this case, I found that even if the feeding tube is removed, it is still illegal for Terri to be deprived of food and water orally, which Michael ordered the last time that the feeding tube was removed (he also forbade anyone to attempt to feed her naturally, which in Florida is a felony.) And as some may be unaware, euthenasia is still illegal in all 50 States. Let's keep up the pressure on this. You can be sure the other side will. We can't allow a judge in Florida, or anywhere for that matter, to set a legal precedent for euthenasia. The petition that I provided a link to was only started two days ago and in that short time had garnered over 100,000 signatures. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I've read the judges order and I am dismayed by it. It seems to be nothing more than another stonewall effort against the parents to seek medical evaluation, treatment, and the removal of the husband as guardian. He states that he will grant no more stays beyond the March 18 date and it is up to the parents to prove to the appellate courts that their petitions have merit. To whom are they to prove this, and how, when the courts have routinely denied their petitons, without explanation, as having no merit? And they have only 3 weeks in order to prove the merit of their petition to get her medical testing (they can't just ask the medical community for this new testing that is available...it has to be approved by the court, or by Michael Schiavo) and the court would also have to remove Terri's husband as guardian...something that seems unlikely since Judge Greer recently returned their filing requesting that, listing all of Michael's violations of Florida guardianship laws, evidences of conflict of interest, and evidences of past abuse with simply the finding of "unfounded" and dismissed it out of hand. I think in light of this judicial travesty that the Justice Department should be called upon to investigate what has been going on in this case. That may be Terri's only hope at actually having her rights afforded to her. [This message has been edited by Denise (02-27-2005 12:55 PM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I am aware that most people are sadly misinformed regarding this case and have based their opinions only on the misinformation being fed to the press and media by Michael Schiavo and his attorney, George Felos. She is far from the ‘house plant’ that Michael stated that she is, and is not in a vegetative state induced by bulimia as Michael and his attorney constantly feed to the media. She is not on any extraordinary means of life support. Her only tube is a feeding tube that provides her with nourishment since her husband has long ago denied that she be fed by mouth, even though she was eating soft foods by spoon before her therapy was stopped. She can still swallow, as she swallows her own saliva, but she needs therapy to improve her swallowing ability, something that her husband has denied for over 13 years against medical advice. Here is a link to a very good article on this case. http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/terri_schiavo_n.php#more Here are some action items excerpted from the article. quote: And this: http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/should_michael.php quote: And here is a link to a petition to the Florida legislature to impeach Judge Greer. The petition lists each incidence of malfeasance by him in regard to his handling of, and rulings in, the Terri Schiavo case. http://www.petitiononline.com/ijg520/petition.html And here is another very good article: http://www.theempirejournal.com/021005bci_bush_could_intervene_i.htm Please become involved and do whatever you can to get the truth out about Terri and her situation, and urge your family, friends, email buddies, and houses of worship to become involved as well. And pray. Time is short, and a life hangs in the balance, as well as many other lives in the future if a precedent for euthenasia is allowed to be set in this case. Thanks again. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
If you don't have the time to email each senate member, here is the email for the President of the Senate. lee.tom.web@flsenate.gov |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The Jacksonville Justice Coaliton, of Jacksonville, Florida, has initiated a petition on Terri's behalf. Please sign it and pass it along to everyone you know. Thanks so much. http://www.justicecoalition.org/petition2.htm |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You may also send an email to Amnesty International USA, asking them to intervene to prevent Terri's death by torture (starvation and dehydration), which people can go to jail for if they were to do the same thing to their house pets. Here is their email address: aimember@aiusa.org Here is their website:- http://www.amnestyusa.org/contact/ Hitler's Germany viewed the disabled as expendable and worthy of nothing but death. We're better than that, aren't we? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.gopinsight.com/2005/02/is-it-happening-here-in-terris-fight.php |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Yes, we are indeed much better than that. You know, I've always been uncomfortable in using World War II comparisons to other issues politically and all, as I just find it always brings back bad memories and bad blood. In one way or another, however, I believe it's very important we understand we have learned from the mistakes of the past, and embrace the disabled, sick, and mentally challenged, and do just that by providing the legislative cushion and the compassionate blanket. I can see why this has remained a quiet thread. I, myself, felt this as an extremely sensitive thread with so many strong emotions reeling and I was a little timid in coming in here myself. But before deciding to add my two cents, believe me that I was thinking and considering this issue among others strongly, and that you're not alone in your thoughts and sentiments. Indeed this is a sensitive issue and I have been debating it with my parents this last week and a half or so. And though generally we have disagreed on a majority of issues, I am glad we could have this talk and blessed we could seek common ground together here. Don't be discouraged that this thread does remain quiet. I believe that's just the attitude others are taking here. This is sensitive, shaky ground, but I believe others are truly quietly thinking to themselves with some of the passion you have shared with us all, regardless of their overall opinion on social issues like euthanasia, the death penalty, abortion, etc. I don't believe anyone else here should be forced to speak here, and the best approach is to just believe in our hearts with faith that regardless of overall opinion, so many are offering their compassion and well wishes to Terri. As an aside, but still relevant to the issue of life, hooray for the Supreme Court in banning the execution of minors today. This is a victory that has been long delayed, and I certainly hope soon we can follow the lead of approximately 110 nations around the world in banning the death penalty in its entirety. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I admire your courage, Noah. Thanks for speaking up about your convictions on this matter, despite its controversial nature, although I can't for the life of me understand the preservation of life being controversial. I have felt like I have been, for the most part, talking to myself in here. Maybe I should watch that, someone may want to take away my food and water!  I think a lot of people are just under the mistaken notion that Terri is somehow 'terminal', and on some sort of life support other than the kind we are all on...food and water. But she's not in a 'terminal' condition physically. She is cognizantly disabled, not suffering from a terminal ailment. Not that I would consider the starvation and dehydration of anyone even if they were terminal. I would continue to feed someone who is terminal whose body can handle it and provide non-lethal doses of morphine, enough to make someone comfortable but not enough to make them die, and let the natural dying process procede as humanely as possible. When my father suffered brain damage and was in a coma, we opted not to have a feeding tube placed because his brain damage was so severe that all his bodily organs were shutting down and feeding him would have caused him agony since his body couldn't eliminate anything. His condition was terminal (but the hospice did continue to provide hydration to him, because allowing him to dehydrate would have been excruciating, according to the hospice, and they believed that even people in comas can feel pain). Too bad that Terri is in the hospice controlled by George Felos (Michael Schiavo's attorney) and not in the one my father was, in Sarasota, Florida. But that's not the case with Terri Schiavo, whose body functions quite well with the feeding tube, for almost 15 years now. The only reason for its removal is to cause her death, which it will, since no sickness or disease will be causing it, but rather starvation and dehydration. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.terrisfight.org/press/022805.html This is what this family has been up against all these years in the court system. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Thank you Denise for all the info and links, and I am indeed saddened by this perversion of legal justice. I have to wonder if that Judge is appointed or elected. Either way, he needs to be impeached on grounds of gross negligence, collusion, obstruction of justice, incompetance, and anything thing else they can easily find on him. Perhaps, if nothing else, he can be brought before the Court in a civil lawsuit, or possibly a criminal suit if he's indicted for accessory to murder. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You're welcome Ali. I am saddened to tears over this latest development. I understand that he is an elected judge. I agree, he should, at the very least, be impeached. Here is the link again for anyone wishing to sign the petition for his impeachment, who hasn't already done so. http://www.petitiononline.com/ijg520/petition.html And please email Jeb Bush and ask him to immediately put Terri in protective custody under the guardianship of the State, at least until the new MRI testing can be done to determine her actual condition, and evaluation by objective parties. He does have the authority to do that. jeb.bush@myflorida.com Thank you. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/disability_righ.php#more |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here are two more petitions that I found. Please sign them and forward them to all your family, friends and email buddies. Thanks! And keep praying too! http://www.petitiononline.com/chisana7/ http://www.petitiononline.com/19461949/ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
And this: quote: http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/dont_forget_to.php And more petitions! Seems like everyone has caught on to your idea, Noah!  http://www.renewamerica.us/news/050224petitions.htm |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
"I can't for the life of me understand the preservation of life being controversial." If you worked in a nursing home and saw people suffer day in and day out, you might have a different perspective. Once again, I agree that it would be entirely immoral (and should be deemed illegal) to take Terri off the feeding tube. But this case is a unique case, and it is not what is usually seen in nursing homes. People have the right to legally decide what they want done (or not done) to preserve their lives, and in that persons inability to communicate, that responsibility usually does fall to the family. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You're right, hush, it would be the height (depths?) of immorality to remove a feeding tube in order to starve and dehydrate someone. quote: http://www.blogsforterri.com/ Please contact your elected officials immediately about this new piece of legislation. It will be voted on March 8th. No time to lose. And please pass this info on to everyone you know and ask them to do the same. Thanks! |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Denise- Do you think, in the absence of a living will, a family should have the right to say "No, I don't believe my mom/dad/whoever would want to live this way- please do not place a feeding tube." Is preserving life always the right decision? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
In my opinion, without a written advance directive, no one can really know, or prove, what someone else would want in a given situation, hush. They can only speculate. But I don't consider food and water extraordinary means of life support anyway. I think if a person's body can tolerate the feeding process then they should be fed and be kept comfortable and allow for the natural progression of the dying process if they are terminally ill. In Terri's case there is no dying process, unless she is deprived of food and water. She isn't terminally ill, as you know. She's disabled. So no, I don't think anyone should have the right to be able to deprive someone of food and water in order to facilitate their dying. Let the disease, if they have one and it isn't responding to treatment, be the cause of their death, not starvation and dehydration. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here is the latest news. Let's pray that this legislation passes for Terri's sake and for other disabled people who do not have advance medical directives. Also in the article is a statement from a renowned physicican stating that Terri can be helped with therapy, and is definitely responsive and not in a coma. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43205 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: quote: http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/as_judge_greer.php Please continue to keep Terri in your prayers and continue to contact the Florida politicians. If you haven't signed any of the petitions available, please do so. All the links are in a previous post. Thanks. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here are email addresses that you can copy and paste. They are grouped in 20 or less since some email providers only allow 20 at a time. If you have AOL, I understand that you have to wait at least twenty minutes between emails that are addressed to twenty people or they will deactivate your account until you call them to get it reactivated. Whether you have AOL or another provider, I'd wait at least twenty minutes anyway to be on the safe side. Please email all these folks and ask them to do whatever they can to save Terri and other disabled people who can't speak for themselves from euthenasia. Thanks so much. jeb@jeb.org, jeb.bush@myflorida.com, wise.stephen.web@flsenate.gov, drawdy.ann.so9@flsenate.gov, fasano.mike.web@flsenate.gov, giordano.gregory@flsenate.gov, dockery.paula.web@flsenate.gov, lynn.evelyn.web@flsenate.gov, miller.leslie.web@flsenate.gov, siplin.gary.web@flsenate.gov, smith.rod.web@flsenate.gov, alexander.jd.web@flsenate.gov, aronberg.dave.web@flsenate.gov, bennett.mike.web@flsenate.gov, carlton.lisa.web@flsenate.gov, constantine.lee.web@flsenate.gov, cowin.ana.web@flsenate.gov, jones.dennis.web@flsenate.gov, crist.voctor.web@flsenate.gov, lee.tom.web@flsenate.gov, posey.bill.web@flsenate.gov, fernanr@eog.state.fl.us, raquel.rodriguez@myflorida.com, calamac@eog.state.fl.us, bob.marshall@trincomm.org, speaker@myfloridahouse.gov, sharron.brown@myfloridahouse.gov, peterman.frank@myfloridahouse.com, farkas.frank@myfloridahouse.com, flores.anitere@myfloridahouse.com, waters.leslie@myfloridahouse.com, diana.caridad@myfloridahouse.com, berfield.kim@myfloridahouse.com, detert.nancy@myfloridahouse.com, clarke.donna@myfloridahouse.com, galvano.bill@myfloridahouse.com, homan.ed@myfloridahouse.com, joyner.arthenia@myfloridahouse.com, justice.charlie@myfloridahouse.com, legg.john@myfloridahouse.com, machek.richard@myfloridahouse.com, mahon.mark@myfloridahouse.com, mayfield.stan@myfloridahouse.com, kravitz.dick@myfloridahouse.com, kreegel.paige@myfloridahouse.com, kyle.bruce@myfloridahouse.com, mealor.david@myfloridahouse.com, murzin.dave@myfloridahouse.com, needelman.mitch@myfloridahouse.com, negron.joe@myfloridahouse.com, patterson.pat@myfloridahouse.com, poppell.ralph@myfloridahouse.com, porth.ari@myfloridahouse.com, reagan.ron@myfloridahouse.com, rivera.david@myfloridahouse.com, robaina.julio@myfloridahouse.com, roberson.yolly@myfloridahouse.com, rubio.marco@myfloridahouse.com, sands.franklin@myfloridahouse.com, sansom.ray@myfloridahouse.com, sobel.eleanor@myfloridahouse.com, sorensen.ken@myfloridahouse.com, stansel.dwight@myfloridahouse.com, stargel.john@myfloridahouse.com, taylor.priscilla@myfloridahouse.gov, vana.shelley@myfloridahouse.com, williams.trudi@myfloridahouse.com, zapata.juan@myfloridahouse.com, domino.carl@myfloridahouse.com, culp.faye@myfloridahouse.com, evers.greg@myfloridahouse.com, fields.terry@myfloridahouse.com, garcia.rene@myfloridahouse.com, gardiner.andy@myfloridahouse.com, gibson.audrey@myfloridahouse.com, gibson.hugh@myfloridahouse.com, goldstein.susan@myfloridahouse.com, greenstein.ron@myfloridahouse.com, harrell.gayle@myfloridahouse.com, hasner.adam@myfloridahouse.com, hukill.dorothy@myfloridahouse.com, johnson.randy@myfloridahouse.com, jordan.stan@myfloridahouse.com, cretul.larry@myfloridahouse.com, davis.mike@myfloridahouse.com, davis.don@myfloridahouse.com, cannon.dean@myfloridahouse.com, carroll.jennifer@myfloridahouse.com, bucher.susan@myfloridahouse.com, brutus.phillip@myfloridahouse.com, benson.anna@myfloridahouse.com, brandenburg.mary@myfloridahouse.com, bean.aaron@myfloridahouse.com, barreiro.gustavo@myfloridahouse.com, ausley.loranne@myfloridahouse.com, attkisson.frank@myfloridahouse.com, arza.rafael@myfloridahouse.com, antone.bruce@myfloridahouse.com, altman.thad@myfloridahouse.com, allen.bob@myfloridahouse.com, adams.sandra@myfloridahouse.com, simmons.david@myfloridahouse.com, planas.juan-carlos@myfloridahouse.com, ambler.kevin@myfloridahouse.com, baxley.dennis@myfloridahouse.com, brummer.frederick@myfloridahouse.com, gelber.dan@myfloridahouse.com, grant.michael@myfloridahouse.com, kottkamp.jeff@myfloridahouse.com, mcinvale.sheri@myfloridahouse.com, pickens.joe@myfloridahouse.com, richardson.curtis@myfloridahouse.com, ross.dennis@myfloridahouse.com, seiler.jack@myfloridahouse.com, stephen.hogge@myfloridahouse.gov, david.delapaz@myfloridahouse.gov chawes@baynews9.com, mdeeson@tampabays10.com, oreilly@foxnews.com, Squawk@CNBC.com, wvcy-tv@vcyamerica.org, hannity@foxnews.com, rush@eibnet.com, ruddyc@newsmax.com, jfarah@worldnetdaily.com, dsaunders@sfchronicle.com, dsommer@tampatrib.com, editor.letters@heraldtribune.com, editor@envoymagazine.com, dklement@bradentonherald.com, tribletters@tampatrib.com, colmes@foxnews.com, genesis@genesisrp.com, Radioqop@aol.com, CfRA@coralridge.org |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 (angel friendship hugs) Oh Denise, it has touched my heart so much as you continue to keep us informed each day on Terri, as you care about her life soooooo much and your golden heart is full of so much passion and youthful energy for her and her loved ones! I signed the new petitions since the last time I commented here and e-mailed all those Florida politicians, LOL! (smiles) It touches my heart deeply to see that activism spirit in your heart and following your heart and doing what you believe is right! I respect you so much for that, and I know even those who disagree with you on issues like this do too, and seeing the passion in you gives me great faith in the world that there are still plenty out there with that spirit, and that it'll still shine in my heart in the future across all issues I feel strongly about!  Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks, Noah, for standing with me for this disabled woman's right to life. With no written advance directive and questionable circumstances surrounding her condition and care, or lack thereof, and the cause of her even being in her current condition under suspicion, and due to the fact of her not being in a state of terminal illness, and due to her not being in a Persistent Vegatative State, by Florida's own definition of PVS, it's a no-brainer to me. There's something very rotten in Clearwater. quote: http://www.theempirejournal.com/ quote: House Speaker Dennis Hastert Phone: 202-225-2976 Fax: 202-225-0697 http://www.house.gov/hastert/write1.shtml Majority Tom Delay Ph. (202) 225-5951 Fax (202) 225-5241 http://tomdelay.house.gov/contactmecase.htm Representative James Sessenbrenner (202) 225-5101 mailto:sensenbrenner@mail.house.gov Please continue to pray for Terri and for her family and please contact the folks listed above asking them to make the approval of the Incapacitated Persons Legal Protection Act (Habeas Corpus) a condition of adjournment. And please email Governor Bush to place Terri into the protective custody of the DCF, especially if the U.S. Supreme Court fails to issue a stay while deciding if they will hear the parent's petition to them and if the Incapacitated Persons Legal Protection Act isn't finalized tomorrow morning and the House adjourns without finalizing it, because Terri will be dead by the time they return after their two week recess. Thanks so much. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Well, it appears the congressional subpoenas have been delivered to the Florida hospice, and a Florida judge has temporarily blocked the removal of her feeding tube, just moments before the deadline was there to ask for her husband to remove the tube. I guess right now we have the unpopular opinion on Terri Schiavo and her husband appearing before Congress to testify next week. (One poll reveals 80% believed it was inappropriate for Congress to get involved). But look, I just feel that there still lacks that legislative cushion in respecting these individuals like Terri in these right-to-die cases and debates, I believe she continues to be falsely depicted of her condition in the media, and if she really wants to testify, let her testify. She's the victim here, so she should be entitled to her say. That's democracy. I believe it's quite appropriate what the House Republican leadership has done here, in just offering her more time while Congress can fully understand what has been keeping her alive and all. Long-term care is an issue beyond worthy of an inquiry, and I have faith in my heart the activism that Terri's case has generated these past seven years can broaden this senstitive issue more into the spotlight in the months to come. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Oh dear. I was busy helping set up tomorrow's teach-in and now I've heard her feeding tube has been removed again. I'm praying for her and her loved ones in hope for a resolve. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
I sent emails to the emails you have listed. I am keeping her in my prayers. You know it's disgusting, that someone that is about to be executed can get a stay from the Governor, but this is happening to Terri and no one seems to be able to do anything! Why in the world is the care of her not simply turned over to her parents?!? It is just something I can not wrap my mind around. It is unbelievable, disgusting, and heartbreaking. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
An article my wife found. National Review Online. Interesting. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Noah, I think the subpoena issued to Terri was just an attempt to have the feeding tube not removed in order to buy some time to iron out the legislation that is pending since it is illegal to cause harm to a Federal witness. But Judge Greer is apparently above the law, so the attempt failed. I think it showcased this judge's arrogance to the Congress, which is probably a good thing and probably partly why the House and Senate convened today to iron out the language of their Incapacitated Persons bills and why they will meet tomorrow to vote. I hope and pray that they are able to move things along quickly and restore the feeding tube. If they are able to do so, then DCF can continue on with their investigation of alleged neglect and abuse and reach a conclusion while Terri is still alive. It would be a hollow victory to have them find neglect and abuse allegations to have been true, and have Michael Schiavo found not to have fulfilled his guardianship responsibilities under the law, but have Terri already dead in the meantime. SEA, the only thing that makes sense to me is that her husband, his attorney, George Felos, and Judge Greer want her dead. It's only speculation, for now, but I tend to believe that the husband does not want Terri to receive speech therapy and be able to tell anyone what happened to her the night of her collapse that left her brain damaged. Their marriage was a stormy one, her family had seen bruising on her at times which she always gave excuses for, and she had told her brother shortly before the 'incident' that if she had the guts she would divorce her husband. Maybe she found the guts that night and told her husband that she wanted a divorce. I guess we'll never know one way or the other until Terri tells us. I think there is plenty of probable cause to launch an investigation, though, and in the meantime not allow the subject of the investigation to starve his wife to death. A full body bone scan done shortly after her initial hospitalization, but not made available to her parents until 2002 because Michael Schiavo would not consent to have them released, showed multiple broken bones and multiple healed fractures, prompting the doctor reading the scan to notate that Terri had a history of abuse. Why was an investigation never done? The parents requested one in 2002 when they first saw the bone scan results, but the police said the case was too old. Perhaps the hospital did alert the police when the scan was done, as I think they would have been required by law to do, or perhaps it just fell through the cracks. My suspicion is that they did alert the police, but since Michael Schiavo and the then Sheriff were, and still are, friends, it was "taken care of". The parents then petitioned the court to investigate Michael's suitability to continue being her guardian based on the possibility of spousal abuse that the bone scan raised, and the fact that he never provided any therapy at all with any of the jury awarded money that he received as Terri's guardian to provide for her life-long care and rehabilitative therapy. Not one penny of it ever went for Terri, as it should have. As soon as he got the money he forbade any treatment or therapy of any kind, against medical advice, even routine dental care and brushing of her teeth, and Judge Greer later gave him permission to use her funds for lawyers fees in his attempt to starve her. True to form, Judge Greer denied the petitions of the parents. I find it odd that Michael Schiavo didn't "remember" Terri's supposed statement of not wanting to be kept alive artificially until seven years after the fact, which if the statement ever really was made, which I highly doubt considering that she was upset after seeing the movie about Karen Ann Quinlin's parents taking her off the respirator and disagreed with their decision, a feeding tube was not at that time considered a medical treatment, or viewed as an artificial means of life support in Florida. I also heard Michael say on the news that he had given his approval for the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration for both his parents. George Felos and Judge Greer are right-to-die advocates, as is their medical expert witness. I believe they want to set a precedent for euthenizing disabled people, even if they are not terminally ill and even if they don't have a written advance directive. As it states in the article for which Pete provided a link (thanks Pete! ), the medical expert used by Greer has stated that Alzheimer's patients should also have their food and hydration withheld. He's also an advocate for assisted suicide. And it seems he's been quite busy in his career in testifying on behalf of having people starved to death. How many "Terri's" have there been? I never knew this was going on before now. I think it would be a good idea to continue emailing Governor Bush and requesting that he immediately place Terri into protective custody under the DCF, because even with the passage of the legislation, it still may not be enough because briefs will be immediately filed by Felos declaring the legislation unconstitutional, as was done before. And if it's ruled unconstitutional before the feeding tube is even put back in, or Judge Greer simply ignores Congress again, she'll starve to death. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Please sign this emergency petition that will be delivered in Tallahassee on Monday afternoon. Every signature will be included up until Noon on Monday. And continue to pray. Thank you. Petition: TO: Governor Jeb Bush, Florida Legislators, Federal Judges CC: President George W. Bush As a concerned citizen, I am signing this “Petition to Save Terri Schiavo” and I am urging you to take immediate action to stop the forced starvation of Terri Schiavo. It is vitally important to safeguard Terri’s right to life. Further, we cannot afford to set a legal precedent which puts the lives of other Americans at risk. I support legislative, judicial and executive efforts that will stop the forced starvation of Terri Schiavo. http://www.cfra.info/213/petition.asp?PID=8141803 Contact Info that was listed after I signed the petition. PHONE CALLS NEEDED! Please take a moment to contact key leaders on this issue. Phone calls are absolutely vital! Governor Jeb Bush (850) 488-4441 Email: jeb.bush@myflorida.com Senate President Tom Lee Tallahassee: (850) 487-5072 District Office: (813) 744-8683 E-mail: lee.tom.web@flsenate.gov Speaker of the House Allan G. Bense Tallahassee: (850) 488-1450 District Office: (850) 914-6300 E-mail: speaker@myfloridahouse.gov Also… Call President Bush and ask him to personally intervene: President George W. Bush (202) 456-1111 president@whitehouse.gov |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Denise~ As you already know, I have been actively contacting everyone that will listen ! Look ... the entire nation is now responding with thier hearts and heads !!!! May God's will be done~ Thank you, Denise, for standing so strong on this issue of immense importance~ *Huglets*  ~*Marge*~ ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thank YOU, Marge! We should have news of the vote in the House shortly after midnight. |
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Denise
Moderator
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Oh, and since last night I've been thinking that it was too bad that Terri didn't have a judge with the wisdom of King Solomon presiding over her case, you know the guy who gave the child to the woman who wanted to keep the child alive, even if she couldn't physically have custody and denied giving the child to the person who was willing to let it be killed just to prevent someone else from having it? I can definitely see the parallels. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
From an article by Rabbi Smuley Boteach: quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Exclusive MICHAEL ADMITS HE DIDN’T KNOW WHAT TERRI WANTED Bush Must Exercise Protective Custody Now The Empire Journal According to a transcript of the Larry King Show on Friday, March 18 after the nutrition and hydration had been removed from his wife by the death order of Florida judge George W. Greer, Michael Schiavo admitted on national television that “we didn’t know what Terri wanted but this is what we want……” A review of the transcript of Friday night’s Larry King show when Schiavo and his attorney, George Felos were guests, clearly indicates that Michael Schiavo admitted that he did not know what the wishes of Terri Schindler-Schiavo are in regard to being kept alive by assisted feeding. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/18/lkl.01.html http://www.theempirejournal.com/03200544_michael_admits_he_didn.htm |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
From a neurologist who actually examined Terri for more than 10 minutes or by video only: With stimulation Terri improved and was interactive. Dr. James Barnhill examined her for ten minutes and said she was in a persistent vegetative state. A persistent vegetative state means the patient only has sleep-wake cycles and cannot interact or respond to others. Clearly Dr. Barnhill is quite wrong after his ten minute examination. Dr. Hammesfahr's findings after examining Terri were: "The patient is not in coma. She is alert and responsive to her environment. She responds to specific people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal praise. She responds negatively to poor tone of voice. She responds to music. She differentiates sounds from voices. She differentiates specific people's voices from others. She differentiates music from stray sound. She attempts to verbalize. She has voluntary control over multiple extremities She can swallow. She is partially blind She is probably aphasic and has a degree of receptive aphasia. She can feel pain. These were some of his observations: On September 3, I spent from approximately 11AM until 4PM with Ms. Schiavo, returning the next day to also observe Dr. Maxfield and complete my portion of the exam (which duplicated that of Dr. Maxfield, so I observed without myself specifically repeating that part of the exam that same day). The exam was videotaped at my request. The exam started with the setting up of the video camera by the videographers, with Mr. Michael Schiavo present. ...Her mother then entered the room, coming toward her and speaking her name. The daughter immediately showed awareness of the presence of her mother, looking for her, then finding her visually when the mother was approximately 8 inches from her face. She then smiled and made sounds. Her father also entered the room with further apparent recognition by the daughter. The first part of this exam included observing her interactions with her mother and her father. Here she clearly was aware of them and attempted to interact with them: the sounds, facial expressions, and searching out and tracking them. ...I asked the mother to bring a tape of piano music. Two separate pieces were listened to. The first she appeared aware of the sound, but would not sing or interact significantly. The second she did interact making sounds with the music. She stopped making these sounds, when the music stopped. ...Alertness: The patient was alert throughout essentially the entire exam. Responsiveness: The patient would immediately respond to sound, tone of voice and to touch and pain. With respect to responding to those around her, she had limited responsiveness to me personally until approximately 45 minutes into the exam. She started to look at me, against her traditional right gaze preference, about the same time that we started getting significant relaxation in her contracted left arm (the arm that had been contracted for several years.) She appeared to identify the sound of my voice, with the relaxation of the arm. From that point, she would generally look toward the sound of my voice when heard, attempt to find me visually, then track the sound of my voice in its movements, or track me if I was within approximately one foot of her eyes. Prior to that time, she did not track me, or try to locate me visually. When playing music, she had a clear preference to the specific sound track played, and would listen to piano music, but change levels of listening depending on the track played. Her attention to the music would not wander during the track she preferred. She would pick out her mother's voice or her father's voice separate from the music or other voices or sounds in the room, and re-fix her gaze to those people. She would tend not to blink when watching those people. She ignored her husband's loud foot-tapping that went on for approximately five minutes at one point. She also ignored his voice and did not try to seek him out visually when he would at times interject comments during the exam or immediately afterwards. It is evident that Terri Schiavo is responsive, and not only interacts with others and with her surroundings, but chooses who to interact with. She responds immediately to her parents, takes time to get to know the doctor, and ignores her husband who is being deliberately distracting. http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/ |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I had another response, but I'm so very pissed at her 'husband', his judicial defenders, and various House Democrats that I can't even think straight right now. All I can do is shout certain explitives at the TV, especially when those Democrats natter on irrespective of their elected constituents. BLEAH! |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
As you read this ... most of us have consumed at least nine meals since Friday P.M., when Terri's feeding tube and hydrating mechanism were removed ... how long would you be willing to go without food or water ??? (I made a personal decision to do without food for a period of four days (96 hours) ... my lifemate wouldn't let me give up the liquids ... so at least I'm hydrated !!! That's more than poor Terri gets !!! Though Terri has been 'in the Florida news' for many years ... it took a movement of caring people to bring her plight to the forefront of the nation and the world ! May God's will be done and Terri's feeding tube re-inserted so she can get on with LIVING~ I asked an acquaintance, who is as adamant about the removal of the feeding tube as I am about re-inserting it, ... are YOU willing to go on a hunger (no liquids either) strike until Terri starves to death ? What I got was a cocky, "Well, not tonight dear, I have a banquet to attend." Continuing to pray that the Federal Judge will act quickly~ I'm sure that if I'M getting hungry ... that Terri is too !!! ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, the spirit rejoices over what it has left. - Sufi epigram <))>< Email noles1@totcon.com [This message has been edited by Marge Tindal (03-21-2005 04:57 PM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Dr. Hammesfahr is on Hannity and Colmes right now, the doctor I quoted above. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ali, I know how you feel. I have to leave the room when they come on with their predictable comments about the Congressional action. The very ones who otherwise think that the government has every right to insert itself into our lives, layering it endlessly with their regulations, all of a sudden are outraged that Congress would involve itself when it comes to attempting to save an innocent life from a cruel death by starvation and dehydration. Marge, I thought about doing that but I couldn't hold out. I guess my sugar levels drop quickly because I get sick if I don't eat on time. Yes, continuing to pray... |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43393 http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20400 |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
my prayers are constant.... |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
They were denied again.. so Terry will starve to death, thanks to the Judicial system of the United States. We should all be ashamed of ourselves. Love's a lovely lad |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
I don't think I have anything to be ashamed of.... now that "husband" and judge sure as heck do... |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
We as a nation, I mean.... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
As Terri said to a friend while visiting her grandmother in a nursing home..."Where there is life there is hope." It's not over yet. Whittemore did not give the family the de novo hearing that they had requested. He simply, as did all the other judges that they have come before in the past, basically said they had no case or standing before the law and in his opinion they had no hope of prevailing due to that fact. He did not review the FACTS of the case. He did not consider the allegations of abuse and neglect by her guardian, nor the probable cause evidence of spousal abuse, nor the conflict of interest of the guardian which makes suspect his assertions on Terri's behalf. Hopefully justice will prevail and we will not have to witness the legalized murder of one of the weakest members of our society because she is viewed as an inconvenient non-productive member of society. This is more than a feeding tube being pulled. The judge also ordered that she couldn't be fed and hydrated orally. She is not being "allowed to die". Let's call it was it is. She is being starved and dehydrated to death by a court order. No disease or illness will cause her demise. Lack of what we all need to survive, food and water, will do the job, if her feeding tube is not reinserted, or if it is not ordered that she be fed and hydrated orally. And that is murder. And the question is not whether we think Terri would rather live or die (and all anyone can do is speculate since we only have the word of her conflicted husband as to her wishes) in her condition. The question is not whether or not we think we would want to live or die in a similar debilitated condition. The question is whether or not, in the absence of a written advance directive, does a court have the right to order someone's death due to a physical disability. Is this the precedent that we want to have set, the kind of power that we want to yield to the judiciary? I would urge everyone to email Jeb Bush and President Bush and urge them to use their executive powers to place Terri into protective custody pending the outcome of the appeal process and pending the Justice Department investigation and the DCF investigation into the circumstances surrounding the myriad of issues in this matter. jeb.bush@myflorida.com president@whitehouse.gov |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
And let's continue to pray for Terri and for her family. Thanks so much. |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here is a new petition that I forgot to post earlier. http://www.justicecoalition.org/petition2.htm Here is a link to an article about a nurse who took care of Terri for over a year and whose sworn testimony was simply ignored by Judge Greer, along with all the sworn testimony of anyone who ever testified on behalf of keeping Terri alive. I believe she will be on Hannity and Colmes, which starts in about 5 minutes. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43427 |
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TexUS Member
since 2003-03-20
Posts 228 |
Denise, you are amazing. THANK YOU for all the information, and your tireless efforts in getting it out there... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You're welcome, Tex. I woke up to the news that the emergency appeal to the 11th Circuit has been denied. My heart breaks for Terri and her family. I don't hold out any hope that the Supreme Court will come to her rescue either. She will never get the de novo hearing that the family requested, because the judiciary is bent out of shape that the Congress sent the case to them in the first place. So now all the liberals and Democrats who suddenly care about States' rights can sleep a little better now. How dare anyone question the decision of the State courts! Except of course when convicted criminals are sentenced to death. Their appeals have plenty of merit. Judges are the supreme rulers of the land. This is where the slippery slope has brought us. First it became acceptable to withdraw extraordinary means of life support from the terminally ill, at their advance written direction. Then it became acceptable to withdraw extraordinary means of life support from the terminally ill without their advance written direction. Now we have come to the point where it is apparantly acceptable to withdraw FOOD & WATER from the disabled who are not even ill because we have determined that their quality of life does not meet some acceptable standard, and by order of a court, no less. How shameful. My friend's son would be dead now by these standards. But after years of intense therapy and loving care (something demonstrably not afforded to Terri by her "husband"), after being run over by a motorcycle at the age of 5 and suffering severe brain damage, he is in his third year of college, where he lives on campus AND is on the Dean's List. Sure, he looks funny, talks funny and walks funny, but he's alive and happy and productive. Please continue to pray for Terri and her family. Sometimes justice isn't done in this world. But God can even use the injustice of man to a glorious end. Thank you. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43439 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43447 |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Denise~ My heart breaks along with yours that no stay of execution has been given Terri on this round~ Still praying so hard for her and her blood family~ Thank you, dear friend, for letting others know about Terri's plight ... so many go uninformed for too long of the atrocities happening in our REAL WORLD~ Love you~ ~*Marge*~ ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Still praying too, Marge, for a miracle and for justice. And now the latest? A Florida judge has forbidden the DCF to take Terri into protective custody? |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Excerpts from Starved for Justice by Ann Coulter: quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43464 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Please email President Bush and Governor Bush and ask them to immediately take Terri Schiavo into protective custody. They both have the executive power to do that. They are both sworn to uphold the Constitution, and the foremost right is the right to life. A thousands courts can rule otherwise. That doesn't make them correct. president@whitehouse.gov jeb.bush@myflorida.com Please, let's do all we can to save Terri from this judicial homicide. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Excerpts from an open letter to Governor Bush: FL.S.765.309 Mercy killing or euthanasia not authorized;(1) Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone,authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act or omission to end life other than to permit the natural process of dying. A JUDGE CANNOT NULLIFY LAW Floridians expect you to save Terri's life because this the only moral and legal thing to do. The option you now have is granted to the DCF under FL.S. 415.1051 to go take possession of a disabled adult that is being abused. After the DCF takes Terri into custody with the FDLE which they are authorized to do, you should immediately appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the allegations of criminal abuse and guardianship laws. I know that you have only 2 boundaries to your authority, they are the United States Constitution and the Florida Constitution. As Chief Law Enforcement Officer you possess the authority to enforce the laws of Florida which are being violated by Michael Schiavo against Terri, a Florida citizen & a disabled adult. http://www.theempirejournal.com/03220502_reader_speaks_out_to_go.htm |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43470 |
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ESP Member Elite
since 2000-01-25
Posts 2556Floating gently on a cloud.... |
I don't understand why they don't put the nutrition tube back in, if there is so much evidence that she has been wrongly diagnosed as being in persistent vegitative state, that she isn't terminally ill or suffering as a result of being kept alive. I know alot also depends on financial issues of being able to keep her alive but I bet her family would sacrifice what it took if need be. I think legally starving and dehydrating somebody to death is abhorrent, it is no better than torture--in fact it is a type of torture. Denise--I have been following this thread closely from across the seas, and really applaud your efforts in fighting the injustice. If "I didn't know" can't be an excuse, that is already a good thing and must help the cause as well as all the petitions and letters. Thank you for fighting the system, cos it sure does need fighting in this case. "Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
And once more Terri's fight for the right to LIVE is denied by the judicial system~ No Stay of Execution by the Supreme Court~ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7283607/ Why am I reminded of the last days of Christ upon this earth ? The Judas' have spoken ... the cross is again in place for Terri Schiavo ... and her walk to that final resting place gets shorter and more inhumanely cruel with each passing hour~ Save a cross for each of the thieves of her life !! I pray for mercy ... tender, tender mercy~ ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Amen to everthing. Denise, where is the article or document where it says that Terri's husband had an affair and she had life insurance? There were two horrible and misinformed editorials in the university paper, stating that this was an "act of love by a loving husband" I got tears of pain and anger in my eyes as I read it, and I want to submit a rebuttal. Even if Terri must perish, which I hope she doesn't, lets not let her life be in vain. Give us this day our daily bread And forgive us our debts... Love's a lovely lad |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, I guess it's all over but the dying. After all is said and done, after all of the political rhetoric has been discarded, these facts remain clear... A woman who is not terminal, who is not on life support with the exception of a feeding tube, who would not die if that tube were not to be removed, who has been in hospice for five years, almost unheard of, a woman who has a family willing and ready to care for her....is going to die because others state she has no quality of life and would be better off dead. Pandora's box has been re-opened. Let's see what comes out in the future.... |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
This is a serious blow to the individual dignity of people with disabilities. Families already struggle daily against the diminution of the value of a disabled child's life ... now it appears the state has diminished the significance of the disabled person's death. Jim |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
May as well see a picture of the woman the courts have decreed has no quality of life and deserves to be killed.  |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
And then there's Michael's lawyer, denouncing the neurologist who sided with Terri as being part of a Christian group with hidden agendas with bio-ethicists. Guess that lawyer forgot about their own specialist, who's a spokesman for the Hemlock Society and gives speaking engagements endorsing euthenasia. And it's that specialist that Judge Greer took a shine to. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I hope the fighting of everyone helps to save her life, ESP. I've been following her plight for about 3 years now. I never actually thought that the husband and judge would succeed in their efforts to starve her to death. The very thought of it is just such an affront to common decency that it borders on the surreal. Governor Bush has filed an appeal of his blocked custody order. I hope he can somehow get custody of her. Marge, the husband and judge picked a great time to put the family through all this excruciating agony, not that any time would ever be a good time, but did they pick this time of year to maximize their agony? The husband has even issued orders almost daily to lock out the parents, brother and sister from seeing her for up to five hours at a time. Is there no end to this man's cruelty? And immediately upon her death he has had a standing order for years at a local funeral home to have her immediately cremated, no autopsy, and is having her ashes sent back home to her hometown near me. The parent's won't even be able to see her after she dies. I guess that will teach them that they never should have argued with him back in 1993 about his not allowing their daughter to have any rehabilitative therapy or antibiotics for her urinary tract infections. Erica, I’ve read it in several stories, some at the family’s website in articles by their lawyers. I’ve read it in several articles at blogsforterri and related sites. Here is one article from The Empire Journal, which is doing an excellent job of investigative journalism into all the corruption and collusion surrounding the case of those in the Clearwater area. It’s a real eye-opener, provides lots of information that may lead to possible answers to the questions of WHY? of this horrible situation: Michael has admitted being involved with multiple women since Terri's illness and has lived in adultery with a woman since 1996; they have two children. http://www.theempirejournal.com/03080514_national_womens_group_p.htm He was even involved with a woman in 1991 prior to and during the malpractice suit that he won, where he stated that his marriage vows were of paramount importance to him. Terri’s lawyers have her sworn affidavit that Michael told her at that time that he had no idea what Terri would have wanted since they were both only in their twenties and never talked about death. She also stated that after they broke up he stalked her and once even ran her off the road. Of course, Judge Greer ignored and discounted her sworn affidavit as well as every other one ever submitted on Terri’s behalf to prove that Michael should not continue to be her guardian and affidavits submitted contradicting Michael’s and his brother and sister-in-law’s claims that Terri said she would not want to be kept alive by extraordinary means. http://www.blogsforterri.com/ Here is the family’s site: http://www.terrisfight.net/ You will find plenty of rebuttal evidence all over the place. Michael, yes it is a travesty of justice. It is a mockery of justice. It is a perfect example of an arrogant judiciary that believes it is above the law. It looks evil, it even feels evil. Thanks for sharing the picture. She is beautiful, isn't she? Jim, I can't think of anything that diminishes the rights of the disabled more than this. The damage that one group of people in Clearwater can do to decades of legislation on behalf of the disabled is mind boggling. Ali, yes, the "expert" doctor that Felos hired is a pro-death, pro-physician assisted suicide advocate and lecturer. Bur Greer saw no bias in his testimony. Unreal. Greer is also a right to die advocate, as is Felos and Michael Schiavo, as are most of the powerful influential people in Clearwater. Is it a coincidence that the Church of Scientology has its world headquarters in that city? They don't believe that the "defective" (sick and disabled) of society have any rights. L. Ron Hubbard's philosophies are very easy to authenticate by doing a search on his name. Curious, the "expert" doctor has said the same thing in past lecture papers that he has written. No, but the only bias you hear about is the supposed bias of anyone saying that she isn't PVS, and that she should at least be given a PET scan and MRI to validate such an assertion, but Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer have always denied that request too. Neurologists believe these are essential tools in making such a diagnosis, and I would think expecially in Florida where it is now legal to pull someone's feeding tube if they are PVS. Greer went beyond the pale, even if it were proven that she were PVS, in ordering that no one could attempt to feed and hydrate her orally. I refuse to give up hope until all hope is gone. I'm still praying that Governor Bush will do the right thing and take her into custody, reconnect her feeding tube and have the medical tests done that should have been done years ago. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
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More from Ann Coulter's article: quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43464 |
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TexUS Member
since 2003-03-20
Posts 228 |
Thank you Denise. This is so heartbreaking. You see that picture posted by Balladeer, Terri smiling at her mother, and wonder, how this can be happening? HOW? I can't wrap my mind around it... and my heart grieves. |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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Neither can I, neither can I. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
"The governor may not disregard that obligation even if a member of the judiciary has ordered otherwise," Kennedy said. "He is not bound by a court order that is at odds with a constitutional guarantee." After all the "praying, petitioning, and lobbying," it comes down to this, Kennedy said: "Jeb Bush must choose between the clear mandate of Florida's constitution and a judiciary which, in this case, has acted in defiance of that state supreme law." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43481 |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Cruel ... crueler ... cruelest !!!! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/ And on the off-chance you don't read all the way through the points on which Judge Whittemore denied this appeal - here's a *kicker* for you - quote: Oh my God ... what a slap in the face ! Each hour brings more and more heartbreak~ ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I knew one of the judges would come out with that comment. They aren't "punishing" Terri, afterall, they are fulfilling her "wishes" (hearsay evidence that was accepted by Greer, despite the refutation of her family and friends). Criminals have more rights in our society than the disabled do. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43493 Just a taste of the inpropriety that has surrounded this case. |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here is an article that outlines the entire 15 year saga. http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463 |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
CNN is reporting that a judge may rule to give Terry nutrition to investigate her condition further. Her family heard her trying to SAY "I want to live"........ Love's a lovely lad |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Hi Erica, that would be Judge Greer (who else?...who has failed for the forth or fifth time to recuse himself from the case at the requests of the family dating back a few years now, in violation of Florida statutes) who agreed to hear the testimony of the lawyer who was with Terri right before they removed the feeding tube. I read the story the night of the 18th. This is a last ditch effort to try to convince the judge that Terri didn't want to die. But there were reports that the attorneys for Michael Schiavo and the Judge gave mocking and disparaging looks at this hearsay evidence, in front of the parents, (only hearsay evidence by Michael is allowed, I'm sure). The parents requested an IV for fluids only at this point. Greer said he will issue a ruling by 12 Noon. These judges sure do love to waste time when they already know what they are going to rule ahead of time. They love "running out the clock". There is no doubt how Greer will rule, who decided long ago that Terri will die. Her only hope now is for Governor Bush to excerise his Executive authority under the Florida State Constitution, or for President Bush to issue an order pursuant to his authority due to the obvious and outrageous irregularities and blatant illegalities surrounding this case, of which they are both fully aware. Let's see if either is the man of courage and character that they present themselves to be. |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43489 |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Even governors and presidents have to obey the law, or at least they're supposed to obey the law. Governor Bush has a restraining order against him, issued by Judge Greer. So there really isn't anything Governor Bush can do without breaking the law. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Denise, it is Judge Greer... but hopefully he will have a change of heart. God was able to harden and soften the heart of Ramses for Moses and the slaves.. And Ali, you're right. I believe Gov. Bush wants Terry to live. Him and his team are working hard to find a way to do so. Checks and balances... usually a good thing. Sigh. Love's a lovely lad |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Does anyone have to, morally, obey a court order that is itself a violation of the law in that it calls for the taking of a life, Ali? We had quite a debate in here awhile back concerning civil disobedience and whether people are justified in ever going against a law. As I remember, all those who participated considered civil disobedience concerning the civil rights issue, the mayor of San Francisco marrying gay couples in violation of the State law, and anti-war protestors ignoring the conditions of their demonstration permits completely acceptable behavior. I came down on the side of always obeying the law whether you agreed with it or not, that you should go the route of changing the system from within, orderly and legally, EXCEPT in the case of saving a life. This is exactly the type of situation I was talking about. Because of judicial tyranny by the Federal Courts refusal to obey the Congressional legislation, signed into LAW, granting the Schindler's a de novo hearing, and judicial misconduct by Judge Greer, who along with Geroge Felos and Michael Schiavo, with funding from the ACLU and the Hemlock Society, have brought this situation to a Constitutional crises, we have a woman about to die. Can we not even muster the same amount of moral outrage at this as we did over the civil rights abuses of the past? Sure, he would technically be in contempt of court and could ruin his political aspirations, but what is that when weighed against the violation of the higher moral law, or natural law, not to kill? The laws are meant to protect society. We don't put the law on a pedestal to the point of elevating it above the very lives that it was intended to protect. Laws have been wrong in the past, and this latest order by Judge Greer is in error, as was he initial order to put her to death, as was the conduct of the Federal courts. Yes, Governor Bush can act. As the Chief Law Enforcement Officer, and Chief Executive of Florida he has a duty to act in light of Greer's conduct, in light of all the mounting evidence of his bias and misconduct involving this case, and in light of all the mounting circumstancial evidence of spousal abuse and perjury. The Executive, legislative and judicial branches are co-EQUAL. We don't have a system where the Executive and Legislative branches have to bow down to the Judicial branch under any and all circumstances, but where the judicial branch can ignore at will or whim the other two branches. It is in believing that that is the way it is supposed to be that we have what we have today, runaway judicial tyranny. If a State or Federal court came out and ruled tomorrow (after years of litigation) that all disabled people who are dependent on feeding tubes are to be taken off of them immediately, for the good of society due to the expense of caring for them, for the sake of the hospitals and insurance companies, and for there own good too, because, really, who would want to live like that, what quality of life can they really experience, would we be bound to obey such a law because it was decreed by a court? Of course not. Well, that's what all the courts have just done to Terri Schiavo, and God knows how many other countless folks under the radar of the media. And if Governor Bush refuses to fulfill his duties, then there is also plenty of federal misconduct concerning Terri Schiavo's hospice care (medicaid fraud) and similar charges against George Felos involving medicare and medicaid fraud with his involvement with Terri Schiavo and other "patients" at the Sun Coast hospice worthy of the Justice Department's current investigation (those were the subpoenas that Greer ignored) of the situation, and cause for President Bush to take Terri into custody as a Federal witness (or evidence if you prefer) in that investigation. Because as soon as Terri dies, the evidence will be gone as she will be cremated immediately upon her death, with no autopsy, at the instruction of her husband for which he conveniently requested and received of Greer a Court Order to ensure that it happens. They don't want to take the chance that it would be discovered that their contentions were incorrect all along in the diagnoses of PVS, which was their only legal grounds for doing to her what they are currently doing and for having her fraudulently in a hospice in the first place, being paid for by medicaid. Both Governor Bush and President Bush have plenty of reason and authority to act. I also believe that they both want her to live, but enough to stand against the judiciary? We'll see what they are made of. A change of heart would be nice, Erica. But Terri might be dead by Noon tomorrow. We'll see what comes next. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Watching and praying..  Love's a lovely lad |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, Erica, continuing to pray for Terri, her family and for courage for our leaders to do the right thing. quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43506 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Commentary by Ilana Mercer: quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43500 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Sorry for the double post. It didn't show for me the first time despite refreshing several times. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43509 |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20050324.shtml Killing Terri – Part II http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20050325.shtml |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Thank you for the info, Denise. Sigh.. The judge denied the request again. Love's a lovely lad |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You're welcome, Erica. Indeed he did. And he waited until 12:10 PM to make the announcement, after telling the family's attorney that he may rule well before that time as his reason for ignoring the request to allow Terri to have at least an IV in the meantime until the ruling comes down, leading them to believe that a ruling could come at any moment throughout the night, the same tactic employed by most of the other courts during this past week. In addition to being exhausted by all the stress involved in attempting to save their daughter's life, these judges are so cruel and arrogant as to add to their distress with these time games that they have been playing. I doubt the family has slept much at all this past week waiting for supposed "imminent" rulings. I know I haven't. I go to sleep thinking about it, leaving on the TV just in case an order is announced, and wake up thinking about it. I have been particulary nauseated today listening to many of the talking heads on TV still mischaracterizing Terri's condition as PVS, as if there were no credible assertions to the contrary by upwards of 33 physicians, more than half of whom are board certified neurologists, as if Terri has had the testing required to even make or confirm that diagnosis, and as if over 38% of those diagnosed with PVS are later declared to have been misdiagnosed. I've also been sickened and angered by the media spin and Felos's spin about the family waiting until last night to tell Judge Greer about Terri trying to say "I want to live", implicating that it was a false statement. I personally read that statement by Barbara Weller the same evening of the day that the feeding tube was removed on March 18th. And here is the proof: (notice the date of the report) http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43383 She immediately left the hospice after it happened and announced it in a press conference outside stating that she had promised Terri that she would tell the whole world that Terri had tried to say it. Her attorney said they didn't bring it immediately to Greer until last night because they had intended to bring in the sworn affidavit as evidence in the Federal proceedings, as they were trying to obtain the de novo hearing as authorized by Congress all week long, being denied twice by each court in the process, the right granted to them by Congress, and finally petitioned to see Greer again when it became clear that the Federal courts were effectively shutting them out and would not hear anything about the case and they would not be able to present that or any other evidence that contradicts Michael Schiavo's and George Felos's contentions. So they again went back to Greer when all else failed. And a word about George Felos' news conference this afternoon...it was classic Scientology spin about dying by starvation and dehydration being a peaceful, painless experience. He said he had never seen her looking so beautiful and peaceful and serene. If those assertions were even close to being true then we shouldn't worry ourselves about all the starving people in the world, should we? Just forget about trying to feed them and let them have this beautiful peaceful experience, if that's what it really is. It was just a blatant attempt to undermine the truth of Terri's condition being reported daily by the family that loves her and the agony that they are experiencing watching her deteriorate. He went so far as to say the family was lying about Terri's condition in order to foment anger in the general public. Bobby Schindler came out later and said let the video cameras in and it will become quite clear which side is lying. And Bobby also said that Michael Schiavo and Felos won't allow that, for the same reason they have forbidden any cameras for the past five years, because it would prove that they are mischarcterizing his sister's condition about being PVS, and now about dying a peaceful death. Felos covered the topic of the possibility of cameras already earlier by saying in response to a reporter that no cameras will be allowed to protect Terri's right to privacy. Terri's right to privacy needs protecting, but her life doesn't. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: You can read the entire story here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43510 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The Florida Supreme Court has also denied their last appeal tonight. Our system of "justice" has failed miserably for this family, who only asked to be able to take care of their disabled daughter instead of having her put to death. Who would have ever thought that this could happen in America? Let's keep them is our prayers for strength to face what may come. They are in agony right now, understandably. And also to continue to pray that someone with authority will act to do the right thing. It may just take a miracle. I wish you and yours a blessed Easter. Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God, but only he who sees takes off his shoes. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"He said he had never seen her looking so beautiful and peaceful and serene. If those assertions were even close to being true then we shouldn't worry ourselves about all the starving people in the world, should we?" So true, Denise. Sigh. I hate people. I really do. Love's a lovely lad His bringing up is beauty Who loves him not is mad For I must pay him duty -Anonymous |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I hate what has become of this country due to judicial tyranny. Combined with a disregard for the sanctity of human life you have pure insanity. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
OhDenise~ On this Holiest of Holy days ... I, too, have feelings of hatred for what continues to happen to Terri Schiavo~ This is despicable - quote: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/  |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Kate Adamson quote: Do you wonder just 'who' Kate Adamson is ? This links at Terri's site will tell you not only 'who' she is, but exactly how her story relates to Terri Schiavo's right to LIVE~ http://www.terrisfight.net/ Thank the Good Lord Kate had a husband, in the truest sense of the word, who CARED about her and LOVED her beyond all measure~ quote: |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
there is a special kind of hell waiting for that man (Michael Schiavo)...you know....the same kind as was for Hitler...and others of like kind...the true monsters of this world. I just don't understand how someone could be that cruel. I am still praying for Terri... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The seeming success of the pro-euthenasia and anti-right-to-life for the disabled and sick among us, whom they consider 'defective', and detrimental to society, is in that they managed to frame this controversy over Terri Schiavo as a right-to-die issue. It's not. If this were a case with clear and convincing evidence that Terri would have wanted to die in this fashion it wouldn't have even made the news at all. No matter someone's personal convictions on end of life issues for themselves, each person has the right to decide those issues for themselves. Judge Greer issued his edict of death on her on hearsay evidence that would never have been accepted in a criminal case, would never have even been accepted in the obtainment of a search warrent. He issued his edict of death on her despite the mounds of sworn testimony and sworn affidavits of countless witnesses bearing witness to her husband's conflict of interest and his statements regarding his lack of knowledge of Terri's wishes that contradict his court testimony. I think they call that perjury? He even slipped on Larry King on March 18th, saying..."we don't know what Terri's wishes were, these are our wishes." Additionally, he ignored stacks of evidence, that the sheriff's department and Attorney General's office also ignored by refusing to investigate of probable cause of spousal abuse, which should have been investigated and taken into consideration in determining his continuing suitability to continue being her guardian. He issued his edict of death on her despite the sworn affidavits and sworn testimony of countless doctors and neurologists, who were not paid for their testimony or affidavits, who vehemently disagree with the paid expert hired by Geroge Felos. He issued his edict of death on her despite not having a PET scan, nor MRI, to validate the diagnosis. This is about a woman being sentenced to die, with no clear and convincing evidence of her wishes. That a judge has declared that hearsay is clear and convincing evidence doesn't make it so. If a thousand judges concurred it still wouldn't make it so. This issue is about a gross miscarriage of justice that seems will result in an innocent woman's death at the behest of her husband-in-name-only, in collusion with a whacko death advocate lawyer who finds beauty in the death by starvation and dehydration process, signed on by the husband when it became clear that Terri would not soon die of natural causes, who was also insturmental in lobbying for, and passage of, the 2001 legislation that declared that feeding tubes are 'medical treatment' in Florida, and can thus be withheld, and who, along with his associates, drained Terri's trust fund that was supposed to go for her care and rehabilitation, in their attempt to murder her. That is what this is about, and that is why people are so passionate about it. It is a true travesty of justice, a violation of the inalienable right to life guaranteed in the Constitution, with more than enough evidence of neglect abuse and collusion to convince the most skeptical person that something is rotten in Clearwater. And I am truly grieved that those in power who could do something about it have apparently chosen not to. I have lost all respect for them. This is a sad day for Terri, for the Schindler family, and for all decent people who honor and cherish life and truth and justice. And this tragedy has been brought to us, in part, by the ACLU, who has been funding Michael Schiavo's lawyers' attempts to kill Terri after the lawyers exhausted her account. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.cwfa.org/articles/7786/LEGAL/life/index.htm |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43503 |
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ESP Member Elite
since 2000-01-25
Posts 2556Floating gently on a cloud.... |
On another forum I post in, a heavily British forum, to do with climbing rather than poetry, had a thread on this case. And an overwhelming majority spoke in favour of the judge's decision, along the lines of "a right to die in dignity" and "quality of life not worth living" etc. But they didn't seem to recognise that she wasn't completely vegitative or whatever the correct term is. It's very strange yet very human how people can have such very different views of a single case. Is there any hope left for Terri now? "Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake |
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TexUS Member
since 2003-03-20
Posts 228 |
ESP, I don't think killing an innocent person, or the support of that murder, is very human. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
 ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I think most of the people who think this is really no big deal are judging Terri's wishes on the belief that they don't think they would want to continue to live if they were in a similar situation. Whenever I hear that, I point out that they really wouldn't know that for sure unless they were actually in that situation, and whether or not they actually would want to die, that doesn't mean that Terri would. And since we don't know what Terri really wants since we are not inside of her head, we should opt on the side of life. I also believe that most people are not aware of all the judicial misconduct, and conflicts of interest, not only with Michael Schiavo, but also with the judges, lawyers, the hospice center, the Sheriff at the time, who is now a member of the House of Representatives, who was and is a friend of Michael's, as well as others in the legislature, who engineered this tragedy a long time ago. http://www.theempirejournal.com/53209_schiavo_case_tangled_web_o.htm |
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sweetcollege_girl Senior Member
since 1999-12-03
Posts 872just about where I want to be |
ESP...I have to agree with Tex..There is no humanity in this...and there is no dignity either...  |
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ESP Member Elite
since 2000-01-25
Posts 2556Floating gently on a cloud.... |
I don't think there is humanity or dignity either. To me, Terri should be kept alive. This opinion is based on all I have read surrounding the case, which is based on links and comments on this thread and bits that have cropped up in newspapers that I have come across. I was just pointing out that people have a diverse range of opinions on the matter, and all on a single case, and how difficult it is sometimes to understand an opinion that doesn't match your own. "Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Dignity? What right do you have to talk about dignity? If the family wants to play with a zombie, no pain is involved. Don't pretend anything more or anything less. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad But for five years of extremely hard work and high expectations, I might have become a parent of a "zombie" - cut off from the social world with little hope for an adult life outside an institution. I think it's good that we're struggling with hard questions that often have no hard answers - What is human dignity? When does a life become not worth living? How much do we invest in a life that has a fragile or highly uncertain future? I have great admiration for the tenacity of Terri Schiavo's parents. They have done an outstanding job of advocacy - even to the extent of getting the U.S. Congress to intervene. Who knows - maybe Terri Schiavo was in an persistent vegetative state without hope for recovery. But that's just the point - who knows? When we make life and death decisions involving others, we need to be damn sure we're making the right decision. Terri is either a zombie as you put it, or a mind (even a severely limited mind) living inside an unresponsive body. Until we know for certain which is the case, caution should compel us to err on the side of life. Jim |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
Brad....that was really a nasty thing to say. Just really uncalled for. Obviously you have read nothing regarding this case and made a comment based on nothing. Play with a zombie? You must not have children, or a heart for that matter. That was seriously disgusting... Jim, what you said was wonderful... thanks for that. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Brad~ quote:I'm not absolutely certain that I've understood your position with your statement above~ Would you clarify your comment before I make what could be an incorrect decision on your position ? Thanks~ ~*Marge*~ |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Ah Friends~ http://www.zimp.org/stuff/ Go ahead ... lose your lunch ... goodness knows I lost mine~ This deprivation of a United States citizens basic civil rights to protection under the laws of our country is appalling !!! My God ... what have we become ? 'Let the woman die with dignity' I've heard some say .... Oh ... yeah ... Nazi camp tactics of starvation and dehydration are dignity served on a silver platter~ And, isn't it interesting that they've had not only Michael Schiavo and his mouthpiece, but so many others say that death by dehydration is painless ... dang ... I can't help but wonder why they are wasting that MORPHINE drip on Terri !!! May the Lord in all His Mercy be with Terri in her hours of great need~  |
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sweetcollege_girl Senior Member
since 1999-12-03
Posts 872just about where I want to be |
i agree marge...praying for terri and her family |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I do too. I don't see that happening here. quote: The cerebral cortex has been dead for fifteen years. quote: Indeed. quote: The body does respond, it responds to stimuli on the outside. quote: Not arguing that. Simply pointing out that you can't talk about diginity with someone who can't talk. If 'who knows' is the correct assumption (I don't think it is.), don't assume that means your assumption is correct. Essentially, this debate is an argument over two religious viewpoints. |
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LoveBug
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since 2000-01-08
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I don't think that's entirely fair. I've talked to many non-Christians who think that what is happening is terrible. I have also talked to Christians who think that what is happening is right... Love's a lovely lad |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
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Marge, Thanks for the link. It's good to have so much of it all in one easy place. Brad, The condition of the cerebral cortex is unknown and will remain unknown until the tests that could tell us the answer to that question are done. They have been forbidden by Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer. Why? Because they can. They may not like the answers that the necessary diagnostic tests would reveal. Then they couldn't legally kill her if it were determined that she were not in a PVS, as upwards of 33 physicians have submitted sworn statements either she is not or that she most likely is not. Michael Schiavo also obtained a court order from his good buddy Greer to immediately cremate her with no autopsy. So we won't know after she dies what the condition of her cerebral cortex was either. A neat and tidy arrangement. This is one topic that isn't respective of religious or non-religious worldview. I think it speaks to a basic sense of justice, as this case cries out for, in light of all the troubling and suspicious goings-on. You don't have to look very hard to find them. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
http://slate.com/id/2115123/ It has become a circus. |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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If I were in Florida, Brad, you better believe that I would be one of those people symbolically carrying bread and water across the cordoned off area of the lawn of the hospice. No one even gets near any of the doors, so it can only be symbolic. I applaud them for making a principled stand even if it can only be symbolic. And I would hope that if I ever found myself in Terri's situation, there would be principled people taking a stand to fight for my life against such blatant injustice, even if it could only be symbolic. |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43516 |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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I just heard that an autopsy must be done in Florida for everyone being cremated, according to Flordia statute. And Felos gave an interview this afternoon saying that Michael 'asked' for an autopsy. Kind of unnecessary if it is mandated, I would think. This should be interesting. Maybe this will be one statute that doesn't get violated in this long sad story. Or maybe not. And if a court order can take away an innocent person's life via starvation and dehydration, violating an autopsy requirement should be no big feat for Greer to accomplish. That might not be too hard at all if the medical examiner is also "one of the boys". |
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LoveBug
Moderator
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since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I find it interesting that Brad chose not to address Denise's point about the cerebral cortex... hmm. Good stuff, Denise. Thanks for all of your insight and information. I heard about the autopsy today. I'd really like if it showed she could have been rehabilitated, so everyone could see what a monster her 'husband' and his cohorts are. Then again, as you said, I'm sure the doctor performing the procedure will be chosen, and will be 'sympathetic' to the 'cause'. Love's a lovely lad |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
A simple PET scan and MRI could have shown her true condition. It's so sad that it has come to this. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
quote: Your statement in and of itself is true, but does an individual's dignity end when a person can no longer communicate? Does an infant child's life only have potential value? That's absurd. I think it is a mistake to reduce this argument to one between conflicting religious points of view (unless, of course, you consider any idealogical discussion to be necessarily theistic). I think the real issue is whether a severely disabled person should be afforded the same Constitutional protections as a nondisabled person. In most cases, I would expect an answer in the affirmative. Then, I think, we can ask ourselves the more important question - when does a person become a non-person? I'm willing to accept, given sufficient evidence, that Terri Schiavo was, in fact, an empty shell. The courts seemed to focus on whether Ms. Shiavo's verbal "living will" was actionable rather than whether there was sufficient medical grounds to consider her brain dead. This, I believe, was a mistake. Jim |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
quote: Jim, you always seem to make the good argument. That is exactly what so many have tried to say but it always has come out long and convoluted. Pete |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The truth of her medical condition was so a non-issue, that the husband and the judge both refused a PET scan and an MRI, as requested by the parents several times, even though they couldn't legally have ordered the feeding tube removed UNLESS she were PVS. A death decree was ordered anyway. Now he 'wants' an autopsy to prove that she was PVS, as if an autopsy performed in Penellis County by a Penellis County medical examiner would prove anything at this point. I would insist on an outside M.E. if I were the parents to be assured of a truthful autopsy in light of all the corruption and collusion being uncovered, but that would only be DENIED as well, without comment, by the very predicatable Judge Greer. If Schiavo wants to prove so badly that's she's PVS, order a PET scan or MRI, WHILE SHE IS STILL ALIVE. But that's not what he really wants. He wants her dead. He doesn't want to prove that she IS PVS, he wants to prove that she WAS PVS, and the autopsy will say whatever he and Judge Greer and George Felos want it to say. Or Greer will again violate a Florida Statute and there will be no autopsy. Will the death certificate say: Cause of Death: Starvation & Dehydration or will it say: Cardiac Arrest secondary to PVS? [This message has been edited by Denise (03-29-2005 09:20 PM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
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Just a taste of the weirdness of George Felos, the death lawyer, who is now being paid by the ACLU and the Hemlock society to continue persuing Terri's death since he drained Terri's trust account dry: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43535 |
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Denise
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since 1999-08-22
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I just heard that there is an emergency meeting in the Florida legislature right now. Oh God, please, please let them take action before it is too late. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Jeb Bush is courting dereliction of duty Posted: March 29, 2005 11:44 a.m. Eastern © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com The Florida state constitution declares unequivocally that in the state of Florida "the supreme executive power shall be vested in a governor … ." The word supreme means highest in authority. There can be no executive authority in the state of Florida higher than the governor. No state law can create an executive authority higher than highest in the Florida constitution. Therefore no court order based upon such a law can constitutionally create such an authority. If the governor tells the local police in Pinellas County to step aside, they must do so, or else be arrested and tried for an assault on the government of the state, which is to say insurrection. (If Gov. Jeb Bush fears that for some reason they would question the authority of his representatives, then he should take the necessary law enforcement officials to Tampa in person, thus making the situation crystal clear.) Since Florida's highest law grants him supreme executive power, the governor's action would be lawful. No one in the Florida judiciary can say otherwise, since the whole basis for the doctrine of judicial review (which they invoked when they refused to apply "Terri's law") is that any law at variance with the constitution is no law at all. Gov. Bush has said that he recognizes the injustice being done to Terri Schiavo but is powerless to stop it. He is obviously not powerless, and his view of injustice is fully warranted. The Florida state constitution declares: "All natural persons, female and male alike, are equal before the law and have inalienable rights, among which are the right to enjoy and defend life and liberty … ." The word "inalienable" means that the rights in question cannot be given away or transferred to another by law. Now, by allowing Michael Schiavo to starve his wife to death, Judge George W. Greer transfers to Schiavo the exercise of her right to life, doing on her behalf what the Florida state constitution declares she herself could not do (since an inalienable right cannot be given away). Schiavo's decision, and any element of the law it is based on that has the same effect, are therefore unconstitutional on the face of it The governor of Florida cannot be obliged to enforce unconstitutional edicts, nor can he be faulted for acting to stop an evident violation of the constitution. In his oath as governor he swore to "support, protect and defend the Constitution and government of the United States and of the state of Florida." As supreme executive, he is obliged to act in their defense, and no court order can relieve him of this responsibility. Any order by Judge Greer that seeks to prevent him from doing his sworn duty, as he sees fit, is invalid, and any attempt by the judge to incite armed forces to enforce his order would be an act of judicial insurrection against the constitution and government of Florida. The judge may have whatever opinion he pleases, but when he attempts to use force to back it up, he breaks the law, going against the constitution of the state, which is to say against the supreme law in Florida. In Federalist 81, when Alexander Hamilton lists the safeguards against "judiciary encroachments on the legislative authority," he cites in particular "its total incapacity to support its usurpations by force." Accepting the notion that judicial orders at any level may constitute an executive power superior to the chief executive would give the judiciary just such a forceful capacity. When every judicial decision carries the implied threat of armed insurrection, a key safeguard of liberty and self-government is removed. If any state governor, or the president of the United States acts so as to encourage the judiciary to assume such executive power, or the people to believe that it may constitutionally do so, he undermines the integrity of all our constitutions, and of American self-government as a whole. This constitutes a grave dereliction of duty and would in saner times clearly be grounds for his impeachment by a legislature intent on defending the Florida constitution against "judiciary encroachments." By God's grace, however, Terri Schiavo still lives, and Gov. Bush may yet act to redeem himself and his constitutional authority. Courageous action would be an act of statesmanship, defending the integrity of our constitutional system and the ultimate sovereignty of the people. We have long been awaiting the statesman who could turn a crisis into such healing. Like Ronald Reagan before him, Jeb Bush could prove himself such a man. For Terri's sake and for the sake of constitutional self-government in America, he should act now. For failure to do so, he has no excuse. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43536 |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
One thing that I've always admired about you Denise is that you approach everything you do with passion. I have my own concerns about state authority making medical decisions for individuals and there is no gain for anyone for me to discuss the particular merits of Terri's case, but just on a personal note I can understand fully what the Schindlers are doing having lost a child, but, I'm at a loss to understand the motives of Michael. I've never met him, or Terri. I'm not there. I don't know. But for my Christian friends who have so much emotion invested in this some words from 2 Samuel come to mind; quote: Just something that might bring comfort when the time comes. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/30/pope.monday/index.html The pope is on a feeding tube now too. Good thing he doesn't live in the US, or he'd get to starve too. Love's a lovely lad |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks for your kind and comforting words, L.R. I find strength and comfort in the arms of the Lord in everything and through everything. I don't know how people who don't believe in God or in His ultimate control over everything keep their sanity. Yes, I believe that no matter how this situation resolves itself, it will be according to His will. I also believe that some of those who are fighting to keep her alive are doing so out of a belief that every life is a sacred gift of God and that He is the only one with the authority to determine the time to depart this earth, not man, not a human court. I believe others are fighting for the principle of protecting the right to life guaranteed to be secured in the Constitution, and to avoid the precedent that this will set if the current ORDER is allowed to stand. I also don't believe that the government should involve itself in private affairs, normally. But this case is far from normal. Many allegations of corruption, collusion, abuse and neglect have been swirling about her sad situation for some time now, even though it has only recently become a national story of interest. Due to these mitigating circumstances that make this case stand out from normal end-of-life issues is the reason that Congress was asked to step in, by the authority of the 14th Amendment, to ensure that Terri's Constitutional rights had not been violated by the State, the same protections offered to criminals receiving a sentence of death. Perhaps God allowed this situation to occur to bring vivdly into focus the abuses of power that have been taking place, and how dangerous that can be to our rights if it isn't challenged. Perhaps He has hardened the hearts of the judges for that very purpose. Perhaps He is also working in the hearts of those who are fighting for her rights and life, challenging people to make a stand for justice, mercy and truth, things that God esteems highly. The ultimate outcome for Terri is in His hands, as it has always been. The issues raised by her situation will be around for quite some time, and may well bring about needed changes in the current laws, that I'm sure most people didn't realize were so deficient, like doctors and health care facilities having the ultimate say in end-of-life issues, no matter the wishes of the patient and family, in Texas, and such as a 'spouse' being able to retain guardianship even after starting a new life with another, and despite 12 years of serious allegations of neglect and abuse, in Florida. Good comes out of every tragedy, and as the verse you quoted says, Who knows what God will do, what His will is in a situation prior to its resolution. So we fast and pray. A couple things I do know is that God says, "I set before you life and death; Choose life." And "Do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God." So I'll attempt to do that in the interim prior to the revealing of His will in Terri's case and the outcome will be as He wishes. And the lessons presented by this situation will also have been provided to us, according to His will. Thanks again for your kind words. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Lovebug, Thought I did, oh well. Jim, By two religious viewpoints, I meant death with dignity versus life at all costs. Does communication thereby dictate one's right to live? No. Do those who do communicate or nature determine that? Yes. I have not seen the video, I have seen the pictures. I am not convinced of the tabloid conspiracies I hear about, nor am I convinced that any person should ever be compared to Jesus (WND did that). I do not know the whole situation regarding the husband but it strikes as just a bit too neat to demonize the guy you disagree with. How did she become what she has been for the last fifteen years? Who has recovered from that? (multiple documentation, please!) It has become a circus and you know it. I'm not being disingenous at all when I say that you're situation is entirely, entirely different. Love, Brad |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Bush's political obituary Posted: March 30, 2005 1:00 a.m. Eastern © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com I never had any desire to run for political office, but, if I did, it would be to make a difference. If I didn't think I could make a difference, what would be the point? Florida Gov. Jeb Bush told us last week he just didn't have the power and authority to save one innocent woman forced by court order and armed guard to starve to death in his state. I don't believe that's true. Not for a minute do I believe it. Jeb Bush blinked. And that weakness that he showed for the whole world should represent the end of his political career. It's unfortunate, because I believe Jeb Bush knew, deep in his convictions, it was wrong to let Terri Schiavo be murdered by a judge's order He even dispatched a team of state law enforcement officers to seize her hours after Judge George Greer refused to listen to his pleadings in the courtroom. But he backed down. When local cops informed the state officers that they would enforce the judge's order, the agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement stopped. That's not leadership. That's capitulation. Gov. Jeb Bush shouldn't have merely dispatched officers to the scene to negotiate with the local cops, he should have led them. He should have personally persuaded those local officers that he was the highest law enforcement official in the state and he was ordering them to stand down. He should have been a field general, not an armchair general. He should have walked up to that hospice with overwhelming force behind him. He should have done so with the whole world watching. Jeb Bush has been talked about as a potential presidential candidate. But who is going to seriously consider a commander in chief who backs down at the first sign of resistance? Bush may have been trying to take the safe route in this crisis, but it represents, in my estimation, the end of his political ambitions. Jeb Bush was tested, and he was found lacking. He allowed a terribly immoral action to take place in his state and did nothing but huff and puff about it. And it wasn't the first time. Say what you will about former U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno. I think she was a fascist. I think she was a criminal. I think she was possibly stark, raving mad. But she backed up her misguided convictions by sending armed federal agents swooping in to pick up little Elian Gonzalez and take him back to Cuba. It was wrong, but she wasn't afraid. Back then, Gov. Jeb Bush sat by and watched his authority breached by Washington. This time, he sat by and watched his authority breached by a puny, little county bureaucrat, a local politician, Judge George Greer. Does the Florida governor have any authority? If not, we shouldn't take the position seriously as a stepping stone to higher office. If it does, why didn't he use it when it counted? I feel sorry for Jeb Bush today. I think he knew right from wrong in this case but didn't have the courage of his convictions. I think he listened to all the wrong advisers. I think he will carry regrets about Terri Schiavo to his grave. He could have been a hero. He could have been a leader. Instead, he appears weak. Instead, he appears to vacillate. My wife told me: "If Jeb Bush had done the right thing for Terri, I would have given up six months of my life to campaign for him. I would have done anything to help him." I'm sure many people feel like that. Let me ask you today: Is anyone excited about the possibility of a third Bush administration? http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43542 Speaking of the lessons we learn... I think both the President and Governor have been found lacking in this sad saga. Perhaps both should be impeached for dereliction of duty. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: Stands to religious reason that He very well could be doing all of this, for reasons we may never know. As I observe through the media not only Terri's plight, but the Pope's health as well, it has crossed my mind that they will meet, and he will greet Terri, explaining how she was used for His purpose. Brings to mind the story of Bernadette... You've made a lot of valid points, Denise, and you wear your passion well. I would only hope that you and I see the truths come out, before, AND after. Because we both realize that there are far deeper events going on than what even the media has uncovered. But nothing remains hidden for long. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad: quote: Even Cicero appealed to pathos and ethos from time to time (and I’m not comparing my own skills to those of Cicero, by the way). But my position isn’t entirely based on personal experience, nor do I believe it is irrelevant to the discussion. Because of the database clutter on the Terri Schiavo issue, I couldn’t locate the research I was after on the efficacy of treatments for her type of brain injury. I did, however, find some information that seems to confirm that people with traumatic brain injury can benefit from similar therapeutic interventions to those that have afforded people with autism significant and meaningful outcomes for more than 40 years: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/archive/20040830/pubs/cbm/tbi.html#15 I know several families with children who have recovered significantly from severe traumatic brain injuries. Whether or not the types of brain injury brought on by head trauma are comparable to brain injury resulting from lack of oxygen, I’m not sure. But if there is some cognition, some ability beyond reflex to respond to external stimuli, then many lost abilities can be reacquired and many of those that are perhaps forever lost can be functionally replaced with assistive technology. What we don’t know is whether Terri does have some remaining cognitive ability – if she does, she can learn. Of that, I’m certain. We also don't know whether such interventions have been attempted with Terri and failed, and if they've failed, whether it was a result of poor delivery of such therapies (I've seen the latter in the case of my son and in many other children who were deemed by some professionals as "unresponsive" to behavioral interventions). Regardless of the husband’s motives, I’m concerned that the court put undue weight in Terri’s alleged verbal living will, considering the words were apparently uttered at the funeral of a loved one. Saying you do not wish to be resuscitated is one thing – committing such wishes to paper is an entirely different matter. I’m not saying that the majority of those contributing to this thread are right. I am saying that we need more information before we can make an informed decision on the issues at play, and that because of the finality of death, some forbearance is due Terri until what we don’t know is brought to light. A prediction – the Feds will propose legislation following Terri’s death preventing the repetition of this sad story. Our form of government is always reactionary. I see no reason why they won’t behave in the same way they have time after time. Jim |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Nothing done in the dark remains hidden forever, Karilea, that's true. Jim, as a point of information, Terri has had no therapy since 1992. As soon as the husband received the malpractice jury award in early 1993 (for which the doctor involved in that case has since been found innocent of those malpractice charges that were lodged) of upwards of 1 million dollars, Michael Schiavo immediately did a 180 and put Terri on a DNR status and refused to resume the therapy that she had been receiving prior to that (from which she was benefiting from according to the family and the therapuetic records), and forbade the nursing home staff from administering anti-biotics for infections (to which the nursing home staff overrode his wishes stating that they were obligated to treat her for infections). This is what caused the rift between him and Terri's family. They begged him to provide for her the care and therapy for which he received the jury award to make Terri as well as she could possibly be. When he refused, they sought in court to gain the guardianship so that they could provide it for her. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Denise: I'd like to hear the other side's take on this. Like it or not, there are two sides - both deserve an opportunity to be heard. Jim |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You're right, Brad, there are conflicting worldviews at play is this situation. I wouldn't call it 'death with dignity' vs. 'life at all costs', though. I'd call it 'death to the burdensome, inconvenient and defective' vs. 'all life, no matter the form it takes, has intrinsic value' (and as such should not be forfeited lightly), and in end-of-life issues, a person's life should not be taken without something in writing definitively attesting to their wishes. And decades old word of mouth 'wishes' (not remembered or revealed until 4 years after a multi-million dollar jury award that came 3 years after the incident causing the disability), nothing more than hearsay testimony, by an estranged spouse, which is hotly contested by natural family members with nothing to gain monetarily or materially should be insufficient to result in a court order resulting in death. quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43550 And along with Erica, I too missed your comment concerning my statement that the condition of her cerebral cortex is unknown without the necessary tests being perfomed that would reveal its condition. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Understandable, Jim. The facts are a matter of record, which is a good thing since the other side isn't speaking about it. And now I just heard that the 11th Circuit has again refused a de novo hearing. How unfortunate. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43569 |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
And the 'spin' is already in from CBS for her obituary: Notice that they already know ahead of time that Michael was at her bedside when she died surrounded by stuffed animals and medical equipment on her bed (what medical equipment would that have been, I wonder?) Such talented people, seeing into the future like that! In all reality, Felos spent thousands of dollars from Terri's trust account to 'handle' the press. I guess that even extends to her obituary. Note: She isn't dead yet. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43558 |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Brad, you said NOTHING in response to Denise's comments on the cerebral cortex, you only followed up with your 'circus' comment. So YEAH, I think you didn't comment on it. OH WELL Love's a lovely lad |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
that makes me sick... like he would be at her bedside.... more like reaching for the champagne...  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
*groan* It just gets more bizarre by the moment. No wonder Michael Schiavo was not worried about the autopsy. Florida law says that the actual autoposy documents and/or photos are only made public at the discretion of the legal next of kin...which in this case is him. So he doesn't even need a corrupt Pinellas County medical examiner in his pocket. He can just say whatever he pleases to say the report says. But it doesn't really matter anyway in all reality. I read an article by a medical examiner today and he stated that it is not even possible to determine by autopsy that someone did or did not have PVS, since that is a clinical diagnosis, open to interpretation, and not something that a medical examiner could determine. And decades old healed bone fractures won't tell how they were broken, just that they were. SEA, one thing I will bet on is that when it becomes quite obvious that she only has a few hours or moments to live, he will have her family escorted out so that they can't be with her, whether he is or not. I think that is how cruel he is. I could be wrong, but I just think he will do that. And if he does, her brother will tell us that...and I won't be surprised in the least. So very very sad. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I guess Dr. Baden may have misstated Florida law regarding release of the autopsy results. I just read that it is required to be made public. Who knows? Maybe they will allow Judge Greer to make that determination. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Denise, your remark about Jeb Bush was wrong. Yes, he did send state troopers prior to Judge Greer's decision regarding the State caring for Terri. They were to be onhand if Judge Greer ruled in Bush's favor, to provide security for removing Terri from that hospice should Michael or his legal team try to fight the move. Once the decision came down against Bush, the troopers were removed from that location. They were not heading there to take Terri by force. They were heading there on the off chance that Judge Greer might change his mind. And Governor Bush could not break the law. As Chief Executive for the State of Florida, he must hold himself to a higher standard regarding the law, just as Mods and Admins here must hold themselves to a stricter enforcement of the house rules. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, the final atrocity has come to pass. The family has been escorted from Terry's room and told they are now banned from seeing their daughter in her final hours. There must be some law, somewhere, that prohibits parents from seeing their children as they are about to die at the hands of the State, but I can't find one. Even executions are open.....which is exactly what this is. The husband wins another one.... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
And he won yet another. Terri died. After 15 years of denied healthcare, physical therapy and basic medical needs, he's finally free of her, having spent almost all of her settlement money earmarked for therapy on legal bills, while he still has his allotment awarded in addition to her settlement. Greer, Felos and Michael have a lot to answer for, in this life or the next. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
AMEN Alicat, AMEN!!! Hard times presently, very sad times..... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: I am thankful I am not in their shoes. |
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sweetcollege_girl Senior Member
since 1999-12-03
Posts 872just about where I want to be |
I agree totally with you Alicat..I am praying for Terri's family..they weren't able to be in there when their daughter died..that is very cruel...my heart aches for them... and i am praying for Michael Shiavo too..he certainly needs it... ~~SCG~~ |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Now that he's rid of Terri, maybe in a few years he'll find a way to knock off the woman he's been living with... RIP Terri.. we know you were murdered. Love's a lovely lad |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I tell you true, cannot even begin to imagine what her parents went thru and have yet to go thru???? There is nothing to compare to having children...and for this man, to take this, their child from them like this....well, simply said....if she'd have been my child, God help me, and God help Michael!!!!!!! I don't like that man very much, forgive me. |
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Cloud 9 Senior Member
since 2004-11-05
Posts 980Ca |
May she rest peacefully now. My prayers go out to her and her family. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Love, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I find it very interesting that it was reported by AP this morning that the Pope's living will dictates his wishes never to be taken off life support, even to the point of going into a coma or vegetative state. The Vatican also stated that no new Pope will be selected for as long as the current one breathes. Therefore, the Pope is willing to take the chance of having the Catholic church go basically leaderless rather than go off life support, regardless of his condition. Seems a little ironic to me in some way. Doesn't sound like the Pope is very eager to meet the Big Guy .... |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I'd rather not engage in a debate right now about the Pope and his nasal feeding tube, etc., but I did hear about that story yesterday. I really don't know what to think of it. I don't think it's that big of a deal, really. Most Popes in our history didn't step down or resign before passing away. Most resumed their position and a new Pope was assigned following each Pope's passing. What is he, 83 years old now I believe? So indeed he can't collect or orientate his thoughts as well as he continues to age, and he is struggling to even speak from his hospital window (he was only there four minutes last time, making the gesture of the Cross to visitors). I myself understand that argument of age and authority, but all the same, it's nothing new, it's less common historically for Popes to end their terms personally. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I think that is not the case. I think the pope is stating his opinion siliently about terri. I think this is his way of telling the family and all the world that it was wrong and he is with them. Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I am often wrong about things, Ali, more times than I would like to admit. His sending the state troopers in on the off chance that Greer would give his permission sounds more accurate, given Jeb's seeming understanding that he couldn't act contrary to a court's order. I still don't agree with his understanding of the limitations on his authority in light of an innocent life being on the line, but I guess I can't judge his conscience based on my conscience in a matter like this. I was dismayed for them, but far from shocked, since it was exactly what I expected he would do in a final act of cruelty, when I heard Bobby Schindler say this morning that the family was barred from Terri's room in what turned out to be her final moments. Other than fighting for all these years to end her life, I think this is the hallmark of this man's cruelty. I was touched, and personally admonished, seeing the family tonight praying "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." I had a strange sense of release on hearing of her passing, knowing that she was no longer suffering the cruel 'death process' forced upon her, and no longer under the control of Schiavo. She is now released from him and at peace. Some good has already begun to be evidenced due to Terri's plight. A couple of States are already looking at the laws on their books concerning guardianship issues and tightening the guidelines on the qualifications for obtaining and maintaining a guardianship to prevent anyone else from ever slipping through the legal cracks as Terri did. I was also heartened through all this by the outpouring of love and concern for Terri and her family, and the level of outrage that was expressed at something so obviously unjust and such an assault on the sensibilities of many decent people. Even though our courts and leaders failed Terri and her family, and us, we're still a country of some pretty amazing people who actually give a damn about the suffering of others. Rest in peace, Terri. Because of your suffering, much good will come to others. It wasn't in vain. Would someone with the capability put up a candle in Terri's memory? Thanks, I love you guys! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html quote: I think a candle would be a good thing. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Denise~ You know I love you for your compassionate heart ... and the fact that you were and will continue to be a ~Warrior~ for others, so that they never have to suffer what Terri had to go through ...~ My heart grieves for the loss of a beautiful woman ... Terri Schiavo ... and as you already know ... I left a beautiful memento in your name and mine at her Hospice Care Facility yesterday~ Going there was the hardest and yet the easiest thing I have been called upon to do~ The news this morning rocked me to the core ...~ For a short time I will try to maintain a quiet vigil, in Terri's honor ... she deserves that from me ...~ I will return when I can~ Thank you for being my friend ... and Terri's friend~ ~*Marge*~ ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.wnd.com/redir/r.asp?http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/statement_of_th_1.php#more |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thank you, Marge. I wish I could have been there too. My heart was with you. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, that story is filled with many inaccuracies, one of the problems that the family has had to fight against while they fought to save their daughter. Those fighting to end her life were also waging a battle in the press 'blaming' Terri for her being in her condition in the first place. Felos, et al, spent thousands of dollars from her trust account to 'handle' the media. There is no evidence that Terri ever had any eating disorder. Her family never saw any evidence, her closest friends never saw any evidence, her physicians never saw any evidence, for which they were sued in a malpractice suit that charged that since she had irregular menstrual cycles (which can have a multitude of causes, usually some type of hormonal imbalance or possibly even STRESS...maybe it was stressful living with Michael? ), her doctors should have considered that she may have had an eating disorder (which may or may not disrupt the cycle, but usually does in severe cases) even though nothing else about her physical condition indicated that possibility. The doctors later had the malpractice decision reversed and their names exonerated and their medical licenses restored. The results of the bloodwork that was done in the E.R. showed no enzymes consistent with the diagonosis of a heart attack. It also noted a particulary rigid neck, consistent with strangulation. The condition of her cerebral cortex is unknown. The requisite tests to determine that were forbidden to be done. The degree of brain atrophy that was shown on the cat scan is consistent with that of some older people in their 70's or 80's WITHOUT any brain damage. Greta had a defense attorney answering medical questions last night, unreal. And some of the doctors that I have heard on television would still have said that she was a 'vegetable' with only reflexive responses if she would have gotten out of her bed, walked out to the cameras, grabbed the microphone and said: "I want to live." And Judge Greer would have ORDERED her back to bed and told her to DIE. Terri's brother, Bobby, suggested that people check out the family's website to check out the facts and not to buy into the biased media spin. |
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sweetcollege_girl Senior Member
since 1999-12-03
Posts 872just about where I want to be |
Now that it is over, we should just be thankful that Terri has no more suffering, and that she is in a much better place than we are. Forget the media, forget michael, forget the doctors, forget the judge. They will all have their days..and I for one, know I will be up there to see it. God is a good God. He knows their fates, and we should trust in him to take care of the situation. I am in no way trying to step on other's shoes, this is just my opinion. Don't hate me Praying for Terri's family, ~~SCG~~ |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I apologize on repeating, if I am, as I have not been able to read all of your replies, personally I greive for her parents, now, to find out, even when her husband has won, he still persists on hate, and refuses to bury Terry, where her parents could visit her in Florida, but is shipping her back here to PA...what a hate driven man, foolish, selfish and unthinking... |
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sweetcollege_girl Senior Member
since 1999-12-03
Posts 872just about where I want to be |
That's not right..it seems to me that he really didn't want anything to do with her...why not just leave her where she's loved? ~~SCG~~ |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
that's just it, he is a hateful person, and even in death does not want her to be loved. He does not want her parents to be able to see her easily. He is doing everything he can to make things be the opposite of what they want. No matter what...he is evil, vile and sad.... |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Did she even get last rights? Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
I don't think demonizing Michael Shiavo is particularly productive. There are other explanations (whether we believe them or not) for his determination to see this through. We can't discount the possibility that he strongly believed he was being faithful to his wife's wishes, as he understood them. Do I think the courts failed to give sufficient weight to Michael Schiavo's glaring conflicts of interest? Absolutely. If Terri Shiavo expressed to him, truly and unambiguously, that she wished to die rather than live the way she ended up living, is Michael Shiavo wrong for having done so? I might answer "yes," others might answer "no," but under such circumstances, I might be inclined to admire his loyalty to her. If Terri never really expressed such wishes and Michael fabricated the story for monetary gain, does that make him an immoral lout? Yes. There are just too many "ifs" in this sad story. For me, I'm not willing to go further than saying the whole scenario was gravely unfortunate. On the face, it seems that at least some of Mr. Schiavo's actions were unfair or even wrong (particularly when the parents were not permitted to be with Terri Schiavo when she died). Whether that translates into maliciousness remains uncertain to me. Maybe we'll know someday soon. Maybe the autopsy will reveal she had some cognitive ability remaining that could have served as a foothold for new treatment. If the courts followed the rule of law, then perhaps the legislature should consider improving the law, or at least clarify that living wills must be written in order to be actionable. If the judges overstepped their authority, then there is a need for reforming the courts. There's potentially enough blame to go around to exercise a little caution here. Jim |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, the problem was that Shiavo only remembered his wife's 'wishes' after the medical malpractice settlement. Even then, it took a few years for him to recall passing comments 20 years prior. Every single promise he made in court for the settlement were broken by the time he recalled her 'wishes', about the same time he persuaded Judge Greer to allow him to use all the funds earmarked for Terri's rehabilitation for legal fees, which promptly annulled a promise made during the settlement hearings to use the funds to help his wife. I have no doubts that he put her there in the first place, and made very sure she would never contradict his stories. People seem to forget that Terri could talk during those initial years, prior to the allegations of insulin injections. He blocked access to all medical records, releasing only a handful 10 years after the fact from discovery attempts by the Shindler's attorney. He refused MRI or PET scans. He refused the polygraph. He played the part of loving husband until he got a malpractice settlement, then sought and found cohorts who would help him legally kill his 'albatross'. The physicians implicated during the malpractice hearings have all been cleared and reinstated, and several agencies are looking into possible fraud committed by Michael Shiavo. I do wonder if he remembered to take out a large insurance policy on Terri, prior to feeding tube removals. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I do think she was able to recieve Last Rights. Denise? Love's a lovely lad |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
no me I just say that, as a cathlic. If he wouldn't give her last rightss than there would be something seriously wrong. You see, When I heard that she was a vegi... I remember thinking, oh wait she can talk right? I don't know. I just think it is to late to save her, all we can do is paass laws and get some detectived one that guys back... IF I was a family member that is what I would do. I heard that the guy was abusive????? verbally?????? and was all ways trying to get her to lose wait.... But I wouldn't trust that, because I could be thinking of some one else. I know that the one sister hated him previous to her heart attack so eh. I hate being stupid, but what does injecting insolin do? Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
For a diabetic, insulin can be a life saver. For a non-diabetic, it can kill you, sending you into glucose induced shock. And I believe he was physically abusive. The bone scan the family finally got hold of 10 years after it was originally taken showed 15 fractures, including several ribs, the sternum, and the femur. The femur is the strongest bone in the body and can withstand impacts up to 400-450 pounds. (Saw an episode on Myth Busters where they were rebuilding their dummy and needed to know the breaking point of the femur.) By the time of the bone scan, all the fractures had healed on their own, but unless she was in a bad automobile accident, I'm at a loss how she could've gotten those naturally. Not to mention her stiff neck upon initial admittance for her 'heart attack'. Blood tests ruled out any heart attack, and the neck stiffness was synonymous with strangulation. I did find it interesting that Michael first said she suddenly fell down in their apartment, then later said she had suffered a stroke, then later amended that to a heart attack which cut off circulation to her brain. All those diagnoses from him were several years apart. My view? She demanded a divorce (which she was working up the courage to do...he is 6'8" after all), he beat the crap out of her, tried to choke her, then freaked out when he thought he had killed her. His buddy the sheriff helped him out of a sticky legal mess. I wish I knew who convinced Michael to file a medical malpractice suit against Terri's physicians, though I have an idea who convinced Michael to move Terri to a hospice. Felos, who was on the board of the medical facility Terri was originally located. My SO was stunned about the early move to a hospice, since that's where terminal patients go to die in relative comfort. Felos, a proponent of euthenasia who became Michael's chief lawyer. Felos, a personal friend of Michael's, along with Judge Greer. It's quite a stretch of the English language to call Michael Terri's husband, seeing how he had already moved on, and moved in with another lady, and had 2 children by her. But I guess you can't continue to be a legal guardian, executor of her estate, and payee of malpractice and insurance monies without being a spouse. If he had divorced Terri, he would've had no say in anything, nor any claim to her settlement monies or insurance. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, she received the last rights/sacrament of the sick and dying, the day of the feeding tube removal, and again on Easter. Bobby Schindler requested it again on Wednesday, the afternoon before she died and Michael denied permission. Jim, as Ali said, there are too many documented inconsistencies with Michael Schiavo in his behavior. There is no doubt in my mind that he attempted to kill her the night she collapsed, and I don't think it would be too hard to prove in a court of law if an honest autopsy is done. It would be so much neater, wouldn't it, though, for the judge, and the members of the Florida senate, not to mention Michael and Felos, if the autopsy reveals nothing remarkable other than a brain so deteriorated that it's amazing that she was even able to breathe without a respirator? "Geeze, aren't we wonderful for knowing how bad off she was and putting her out of her misery. Oops, well no, we didn't mean misery, because how could she feel misery when she didn't have a brain? But if she did have a brain and could tell us what she wanted, why of course she would want to be starved and dehydrated. Only dogs and criminals don't deserve that kind of treatment. Then it's cruel and unusual, and obviously extremely painful. If you are sick or disabled, it's a thing of beauty, a 'process' to be desired. Sorry, I've become a bit jaded over the past few months. Nothing can surpise me anymore. I wonder why the governor didn't take control of the body and have an autopsy performed by a medical examiner from outside of Pinellas County due to all that has happened and with faith in the officials of Pinellas County non-existent? Maybe Greer wouldn't have permitted it. Maybe there was a stipulation to that in the court order that Michael obtained just prior to pulling the tube pertaining to the disposition of Terri's body after death. Too bad Bush didn't get elected judge, then maybe he would actually have some authority in the goings-on in Florida. Terri would at least have had an outside chance of still being alive...maybe. According to a couple of psychiatric profiles that have been done on Scvhiavo, his actions are consistent with a spouse abuser of the controlling type, which has been reinforced in his need to control even Terri's 'death process' and burial, his obsessive need to call the shots, despite the pain that he causes to others. He not only refused to allow Terri's family to be in the room during her last hour, he also announced through a statement that the Schindler family is not welcome at the funeral and burial of her ashes (he is cremating her despite the wishes of her family, and he also refused permission to let them have her body at a funeral mass prior to the cremation), 'somewhere near Philadelphia' in a plot that was left to the Schiavo's by an aunt and uncle (he might have to sell one of his Mercedes to purchase a plot for her in Florida near him and her family? ...sorry for the sarcasm...nothing this guy has ever done makes any sense to me, other than as calculated attempts to cause as much pain as possible to those he despises) and will not disclose the location because he doesn't want the Schindlers to turn her burial into a 'circus'. It remains to be seen whether he will ever let them know where she is buried. I suspect that he won't, as he knows this will increase their pain, and would be consistent with all his other actions. Any one who has ever lost someone knows how vitally important it is during the grieving process, especially in the first six months or so, to be able to just go and be at the gravesite. And putting her family aside for a moment, why would he bury his 'beloved' wife where he won't even be able to visit her? And yes, getting insulin when you don't need it can kill you by sending you into hypoglycemic shock. According to the sworn affidavit of the nurse, four or five times, after a visit by Michael, who himself is a nurse, she found that Terri's glucose reading was non-existent and she had to administer glucose to stabilize her. She reported it to her superiors, and to the police, and was fired after the last time that she reported an incident. It was never investigated by anybody. *News Flash* It was just announced that the Pinellas County medical examiner refused to allow any outside medical examiners to participate in or witness the autopsy. Geeze, I am soooooo surprised. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thank you for putting up the candle, Karilea. And thank you, Marge for being so thoughtful, and such a friend, in leaving such a lovely gift on my behalf for Terri's family at the hospice site. You are special. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.blogsforterri.com/ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
For anyone wishing to send the Schindlers (Bob, Mary, Bobby and Suzanne) a sympathy card you can mail it to: The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation 4615 Gulf Boulevard, 104-103 St. Petersburg, Florida 33706 For anyone wishing to send a Mass Card for Terri you can mail it to: The Schindler Family c/o Holy Name of Jesus Catholic Church 5800 15th Avenue South Gulfport, Florida 33707 A funeral Mass will be held there on Tuesday, April 5th at 7 pm for Terri. Please keep the family in your prayers. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I have written a sympathy card for Terri's family and will have it mailed Monday! Thanks for the contact information, Denise! * * God Bless You, Terri, rest in peace! * * My prayers also go out to her family on this most sensitive day for them. * * Now, again Denise, we haven't necessarily been eye to eye completely in the final days leading to her tragic passing, but I will say I still am deeply gladdened we found common ground together on this issue of life, I'm blessed by that! I do hope that from this day forward we try and commit to ourselves the grave importance of this issue of long-term care and make sure those like Terri from here on out are given the fullest cushioning and respect before life decisions are made, and see to it that we can resolve future conflicts without resulting to political tug-of-war. I myself was deeply troubled that Congress and others in higher positions of authority decided to intervene into the case and remove it from the state court, because it just saddens and troubles me to imagine in an editorial cartoon sense the depiction of one side that shares Terri's family's sentiments pulling Terri's arms and the other side that shares the sentiments of her husband pulling at her legs. In the end, I believe it not only tears the case apart, but the individual centered to the case itself. I pray from this day forward that together we can recognize the issue of long-term care with both compassion and common sense. I fear myself that the end result of this will be Terri used as a stamp to further certain agendas, and I believe we must discipline ourselves to the best in taking the nervous energy generated from this debacle not for vilification of one another but as a positive outlet in the comfort and knowledge many have been truly touched and inspired by Terri and are interested in her example to see to it this sort of mistake doesn't happen again and in holding to that word we cooperate together in embracing the disabled and handicapped community. Again, I am blessed we could have this thoughtful and productive discussion here. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
Michael Shiavo is worse than Scott Peterson...makes me sick! He wanted her dead to destroy evidence,(That is why the cremation not burial) he has been so afraid since he had tried to kill her the first time, that she would come out of this and tell the truth, and that is why no divorce, no recovery therepy. Think about it, it is all there in black and white. You can't say you love someone in one breath and that you want to honor (your) their wishes,and be loving and living with a live-in wife with KIDS! The proof is there, it has all been for his self! Parents know, they just know, gut feelings, they know their children more than anyone and her parents knew who he was and what he has done! At least Scott Peterson didn't have the government helping him to kill his wife! This country needs another 911 wake up call, to open their eyes!(no, looks as though this one didn't help, or we would not have witnessed this unlawful act of injustice) Now if the Schindlers had some oil or money to bargin with maybe their voice would have been heard, Or if it was Ben Laddin or Hussin starving one of their disabled citizens, we would have to go in and demand justice, a cruel leader to preform such vile acts upon a human being? but the Shindlers don't own a country with oil do they? The gas prices are outrageous, Our troops need to come home, Babies are being killed, Starve a woman to death on national tv, allowing her husband to do it who probably abused her to put her there in the first place! IS this is what America has become? I hope Michael Shiavo reaps what he sows.... America needs to wake up and take a stand! [This message has been edited by A Romantic Heart (04-04-2005 01:30 AM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Noah, The petition to Congress in this case to allow an appeal to the Federal Courts for a de novo hearing, (which the Federal Courts declined to grant) in light of all the obvious and blatant improprieties involved in the state court activities that led to the ORDER of death, would have been one of those cushions that you say we need. And I see nothing wrong or inappropriate, in the attempt to have laws changed that would prevent another innocent person finding themselves in Terri's situation, to invoke the name, image, facts and details of Terri Schiavo. Speaking of the final ORDER of Judge Greer, I'm sure many do not know that it was not an ORDER simply allowing Michael Schiavo to have the feeding tube removed as was the original ORDER of 2000. This was an ORDER that stated that Schiavo shall cause it to be removed, essentially removing even Michael Schiavo's right to act in the event of a change of heart about the situation, a fact that George Felos, Michael Schiavo's lawyer, was only too glad to state to the public. And it didn't merely state the 'feeding tube' shall be withdrawn, it stated 'food and hydration' shall be withdrawn. The court did more than affirm the guardian's right to act, the court directly ordered the death to be effected, of a person who was not terminally ill, of a person who could not physically enunciate clearly enough, to the court's satisfaction, that she wanted to live. In response to one of the family's lawyer's urging to Terri that she could stop all of this right now, shortly before the feeding tube was removed, if she could only say, "I want to live", the court did not find the sworn affidavit of the attorney asserting Terri's reply of "AAAAHHHHH WAAAAAAAA" followed by an anguished scream, and then sobbing (by a pesron who has been denied speech therapy for 15 years), all heard by Terri's sister and brother-in-law and the police guard at the door (who initially stated that she did in fact hear it but then later recanted her statement) credible, and that even if he did find it credible, he was denying the motion because, in his opinion, it was not timely filed, regardless of the fact that the affidavit was part of the attorneys' planned submission to the Federal Court, if they were granted the de novo hearing, as authorized by Congress, that they tried to obtain that entire week, which as we have seen, was denied them, and since all hearings at the Federal level were denied, making it impossible to present this affidavit at the Federal level, they subsequently petitioned the State Court with the evidence. Here is what I shared earlier about this: quote: The judge then further overstepped his authority, by Florida statute, when the parents petitioned to be able to attempt to nourish and hydrate her orally, since she could swallow, even if minimally, in that she did eat soft foods by spoon prior to the husband forbidding it after the feeding tube was placed (to ensure proper levels of nutrition), and in that she swallowed her own saliva and sinus secretions without choking. People who can't swallow can't do that. In reponse to this final petition the judge ordered that no food and hydration could be administered orally, even to the extent that not even ice chips could be placed on her tongue, nor a wet sponge applied to her dried cracked and bleeding lips, nor could the inside of her mouth be swabbed with water, all standard protocols for hospice care, in the relieving of suffering. And in response to your dismay at my saying in Ali’s thread (to which I won’t be replying in there anymore about this, out of respect for Ali) ‘liberals are from another planet’, I was mistaken. I should have said that ‘most liberals are from another planet’, because some liberal politicians actually did take a stand for justice and for the importance of the principle of the guarantee of the right to life in this case, refusing to bring this down to the level of playing politics with a person’s life on the line, whereas there were some conservative politicians who did just the opposite and placed political maneuverings and considerations above what should have been the paramount issue under consideration, the Constitutionally guaranteed right to life of a fellow human being. They too are from another planet, as far as I am concerned. My sincerest apologies. ARH, you’re right, 911 didn’t wake us up and apparently this hasn’t either. I plan to work to change that. And I agree that it is hypocritical to be sacrificing our sons and daughters on the battlefield to ensure the human rights of others, when here at home there is seemingly very little political will, or courage, to protect those same rights of American citizens, particularly the weakest among us. I am still proud to be an American, but I am ashamed of our leaders. No one, not even the president, is bound to honor a court order arrived at through blatant violations of the law or an order at odds with the law and the moral or natural law. But that is also something that we can work to change. [This message has been edited by Denise (04-03-2005 11:29 AM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here is a link that you may want to bookmark to access news on the latest investigative efforts and happenings regarding Terri's situation that, sadly, led to her death. http://www.theempirejournal.com/ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Finally, a poll that asked the right question. What a difference the truth makes in the outcome. quote: http://www.lifenews.com/bio891.html |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
This country needs another 911 wake up call, to open their eyes!(no, looks as though this one didn't help, or we would not have witnessed this unlawful act of injustice)''' ---------- With out a doubt thats the worst thing I have ever read!!! and it has NOTHING to do with this case.....how shameful a thought! |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
quote: No, it just needs to stop pushing the rights of the disabled to the margins of our civilization. Disability is a fact of the human condition - treating it as an unwanted drain on resources dehumanizes the disabled and diminishes the humanity of both the disabled and the nondisabled. A "wake-up call" won't suffice - what must happen is a systematic change of common attitudes toward disability and a willingness to go to bat for those who, for whatever reason, cannot go to bat for themselves. Jim |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I have mailed the sympathy card for Terri's family! No, Erica, I absolutely do not believe in your comment regarding that "this country needs another 911 wake up call." I actually find that type of thought offensive to me, similar to the thinking that got Ward Churchill into such controversy when he said the only way everyone would understand, in his view, that some America foreign policies were repressive regimes in the minds of others across the world, would there to be more 9/11 like attacks on our own soil. I absolutely disagree. Look, about 4 in 5 Americans believed it was wrong for Congress to intervene in the manner it did (like I do), while a majority of Americans also believed they would have made the same decision of a feeding tube removal in their own situation like that (I wouldn't). The important thing to notice here is that there is approximately a 20% spread between those who believe it was wrong for Congress to intervene and those who believe in the decision to have the feeding tube removed. That means something to me here in the overall potential her survival case may have had. Even there, we may be in the minority view here regarding the feeding tube debacle, but I'm inspired by the symbolic display of millions who pulled for and supported Terri in this unfortunate tug-of-war on her life, and despite the disagreements in every pocket, I believe that most believe beyond the differences we must see to it this type of instance doesn't happen again and together we can reach beyond the dissent of Schiavo and work to save other lives like hers. I have faith enough have already awakened to understand the importance and dignity behind the rights of the disabled and handicapped. * * Denise, your apology is accepted. I will add though that I just don't believe this sort of "you're from another planet" behavior ever helps anyone, and certainly wouldn't have ever helped Terri if she were still alive, as well as those who are facing similar fates right now. Look, I can admit and anyone can agree I paint negative portrayals of Bush. I truly believe he has done more wrong than he has done good, and the nation has been going in the wrong direction under him. But I also have never made inflating generalizations that all conservatives must treat Bush like a messiah and such just because most vote his way in the election, thus must be from another galaxy or such. I don't believe that and never will, for we are all unique and we are a lot deeper and individual than many often forget to think. I don't agree with the Democratic Party on many things as well, which make me not a Democrat, but an independent. I believe they've been too soft on corporate crime, they supported the war in Iraq before coming to their senses more, though many Democrats in the House still voted for the $82 billion resolution. And they just don't make many courageous stands for progressive values and such which most Americans want, such as environmental protection, a living wage and funding into alternative fuels. Just because two Democratic senators from Hawaii happened to have went the wrong way on the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge vote, which was very troubling to me, doesn't automatically make me believe they must be from another planet. Just because a number of Democrats signed that troubling class action bill to make it harder for individuals to ever sue corporations for wrong-doings and injustice in the workforce, which was beyond troubling, doesn't automatically make it so. I believe there are many wonderful Republicans and conservatives out there, like my grandparents. And even among those I have general disagreement with I believe there is a human and spiritual connection between us all and it is essential we try and explore that sort of relation. That's just what I was trying to get across in reaction to that comment. I just don't think that sort of comment really helps advancing these sensitive issues in a way we can be prepared to find unison. I'm a more patient person, but there are other liberals out there who are not so much so, and that sort of comment would shy them away from wanting to cooperate because they may perceive the comment as being the impatient bi-polar. (angel friendship hugs) I hope what I said made sense! Thanks, dearest friend! * * There's one other thing that hasn't necessarily been brought up here that I find extremely relevant. The Schiavo protests outside the hospice that were televised. I was absolutely gladdened to see their voices were being heard, that their protests were being televised. Especially considering, according to poll results, that they were representing the minority opinion on this sensitive issue that urgently wanted their message to be received and hope to make a difference. I cried in warmth seeing that happen. And my response to that is, "Let this be example to how all sorts of protests should be televised." I hope you can see now what I was arguing before about the way the anti-war protests and such were virtually completely shut out of the major networks and cable news outlets, with not ONE interview with a protester being conducted on the second anniversary of the war in Iraq, which tens of thousands of Americans went out and protested the invasion, with tens of thousands more worldwide. Imagine, if you will, that none of those protests that were fortunately televised weren't. You'd feel rejected, isolated, pushed aside, even when you believe you speak with a true conscience so many others can relate to. That's exactly how I've been feeling, despite many polls now revealing tha a majority disapprove of the handling of the war in Iraq, of the media continuing to flush all dissenting voices out of the lens. Whether the protest is anti-war, pro-life, pro-choice, you name it, all these protests SHOULD be aired in the manner the Schiavo protests were, for we are the people, and the megaphone must return back to democracy and restricted not to "officialdom". Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I didn't say that :P |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The people holding vigil and protesting outside the hospice weren't the minority voice, Noah. You may have missed the results of the Zogby Poll, the only published poll that I know of that actually asked the right question as it pertained to Terri's situation and circumstances. Here it is again for you: quote: http://www.lifenews.com/bio891.html |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Noah my friend, you Took her words out of context. Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I do wholeheartedly apologize if I took your comment out of context, my friend. It was not intentional if I have accidentally done so. But I believe it's important to add, however, you must be careful in how you phrase out points with 9/11 in particular attached to it. There's just so much controversy eclipsing that term alone wherever it is stamped, and when you phrase it in terms of "this country needs another 9/11 wake-up call", many may misunderstand or misinterpret you and may feel offended. And I wasn't directly comparing your comment to Ward Churchill's, by the way. I brought up Churchill because that's how his huge controversy surrounding him and the University of Colorado began. He argued in his essay, "Some People Push Back" that it's no suprise 9/11 happened because others in the world felt repressed under some American-led foreign regimes and that encouraged repressive behavior that motivated the attacks, calling those who encouraged those repressive foreign policies "little Eichmanns" and then saying that Americans in general won't ever stand up and protest these sort of foreign policies unless more 9/11's happen. You see, though Churchill and his opinions are not to my taste personally, it's no suprise that his words and arguments were taken out of context very much, with many pundits saying because Churchill made that argument that in conclusion, Churchill wants more 9/11 attacks to happen in America and such. On a topic so sensitive as 9/11, anything can instantly become a headline. (hugs) I apologize if I took your comment the wrong way. I only ask for you to be careful is all, only trying to help here. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
That's correct, Denise. Thanks for sharing that! I do believe those results. By minority voice, I meant regarding the debate if Congress and the president should have intervened or not, as well as if others would have had their spouse's feeding tube removed in their own situation. In those instances, we are currently the minority. Sorry for the misunderstanding there, Denise! (hugs) Indeed, however, that still doesn't shift the importance of all voices in being represented in our mainstream media. Those protests that were televised during every 15-minute update on Headline News and earned slots during the nighlty cable broadcasts, THAT'S exactly how I wish all other protests could be treated in terms of coverage. Is it too much to ask for five minutes every hour or so? Is it too much to ask one day of the year (March 19) to have those anti-war protests televised in a format similar to the protests outside the Florida hospice? Is it too much to ask that, even if only for the day on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade that both pro-life and pro-choice protests could be represented on the airwaves? That's all I'm arguing here. I'm very happy that all those who pulled for Terri's life had their voices heard and were represented much of last week. This may be blind hope, but I do hope that perhaps some lesson has been learned from all of this how true it is that dissent completes democracy. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: Noah, in several ways, the answer is "yes". Today at lunch with a dear friend, with "very old" in-laws, explained to me that "finally" her in-laws are learning that they can't go on much longer without getting their affairs in order. Not just as to Wills, but directives such as Terri did not have, as well. While that's the barest of things many of us learned, there is much more that we as a nation learned as a whole. And not just about one person. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Noah, polls are only as good as the questions asked. I'm sure if the polls had asked "should a mentally disabled woman who is not on life support, is not terminally ill, is not brain dead, has no written directive, has a guardian who has severe and several conflicts of interests who has petitioned a judge to withdraw her food and water, and a judge who has broken several statutes to be able to arrive at his decision for the withdrawal, should the Congress intervene to insure her 14th Amendment right to life?" I'm sure the numbers would be different. Yes, we've learned quite a lot, Karilea, and I can already see the hand of God bringing much good out of this. For one thing, educating people needs to be done about so many issues. Issues such as the promotion of "living wills", which are actually focused toward death and are supported and promoted by euthanasia proponents. The wordings tend to be vague enough in most cases to leave them open to interpretation. And they usually lump "conditions" in with terminal illness, so you could end up being starved to death, legally, even if you have a non-life threatening condition or disability. You may mean one thing, your family may think you meant another, but in the end, it is the doctor's interpretation that matters, if you can't physically speak for yourself. Thanks to a "living will", he overrides your family in that case. And if it is the doctor's interpretation that you didn't want something in a particular situation, you're not going to get it, including food and hydration, even if you are only disabled and not in a terminal illness situation. The wordings can trip you up and your understanding of a word is probably not a lawyer's or doctor's understanding. If you aren't careful, you could be signing your own death warrant. And relieving society (insurance companies, medical institutions, the government) of the "burden" of you. Be very careful what you sign. A much better, and safer vehicle, is something called the "Will to Live" which can be downloaded from the National Right to Life site and can also be obtained from Catholic churches. They are geared toward life, and are worded more to what most of us understand (incorrectly) "living wills" to mean, removing extraordinary life support measures when death is imminent, when we are already in the end stages of death and the extraordinary measures just prolong the dying. And you can state that nutrition would only be withheld if your body could no longer process it, and request that hydration be continued to prevent undue suffering. We also need to reducate people about the workings of the government, how it is supposed to work, and how easily corrupted from its principles it can become. People also need to take a hard look at the notion that the "rule of law" must be upheld to the extent that innocent people are put to death at the behest of a corrupt court. How far have we fallen? Didn't even Jesus admonish the Pharisees for their meticulous adherence to the law to the extent of even "tithing mint, dill and cumin, but neglectling the weightier provisions of the law, such as mercy and justice and truth"? If we had courageous leaders back in the 60's that went against a State court order, and sent in the National Guard to escort black children safely into what had always been a whites only school, in violation of the state court order, why did we not have courageous leaders to send in the National Guard to save an innocent disabled person from the cruel and inhumane order of death by starvation and dehydration? Does anyone seriously believe that the local police would have engaged in a shoot-out with the military? Something that is considered cruel and inhumane for animals and criminals was allowed to happen to a fellow human being, with the entire world looking on at the agonized pleas for mercy from her family, and to the extent that she was even denied the normal hospice comfort measures of ice chips and a wet sponge to alleviate her suffering, all by court order. I can't get my mind around any of it. It has pierced me to the core of my being. It has sent me crashing to my knees before God. And I can't stop crying. The mother was denied her request to the judge and her son-in-law, first the very life of her daughter, and to add insult to injury, after her death and before the cremation, a lock of her daughter's hair, or a small portion of her ashes. DENIED. Many issues have to be looked at, evaluated and reevaluated. Laws need changing. Corrupt judges and lawyers and politicians need to answer for their actions. Foremost, we need God's wisdom to navigate this treacherous world. We are facing the increasing devaluation of the sanctity of life, with an increasing emphasis on the quality of life. We are slowly but surely becoming brainwashed to the philosphy that it isn't life that matters, but its quality, and if a person lacks in some way what the norm has become in terms of the current definition of quality, then that person's life is not worthy of protection, not worth fighting for, not worth dying for. In essence, in our thinking they become non-human. We are quickly forgetting our responsibility of the strong defending the weak and we are becoming more like the inferior animal world where it is survival of the fittest. The euthenasia proponents are cunning and frame this as an issue of choice. But they in effect are taking choice away from us when they lobby for laws that favor their philosphies and push policies in hospitals that give the authority over life and death to the doctors and remove that authority from the patient and the patient's family members. Perhaps what needs to be done is to figure out a way to write the laws whereby the euthanasia propenents can only kill each other and leave the rest of us alone. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I just caught a portion of Terri's funeral. Some kind soul sent his Purple Heart medal for Terri, that her brother held up for everyone to see. A very touching tribute. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
My kind of liberal: quote: http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0513,hentoff,62489,6.html |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here is an article that explains the difference between Living Will and Will to Live Documents, with a link at the bottom to request a Will to Live. You can also get one from the National Right to Life site and from any Catholic church. http://mysite.verizon.net/cureltd/id12.html Terri's brother and sister will be on Hannity and Colmes, which starts now, 9PM Eastern. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Denise? Here's a flip side to the controversy. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43688 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.terrisfight.org/ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/richtucker/rt20050408.shtml |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Notice the progressive change in language, the parts I underlined, used by Judge Greer in his successive ORDERS: Feb. 11, 2000 original order to remove Terri's feeding tube: ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that the Petition for Authorization to Discontinue Artificial Life Support of Michael Schiavo, Guardian of the Person of Theresa Marie Schiavo, an incapacitated person, be and the same is hereby GRANTED and Petitioner/Guardian is hereby authorized to proceed with the discontinuance of said artificial life support for Theresa Marie Schiavo. November 22, 2002 court order: FURTHER ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that Michael Schiavo, as Guardian of the Person of Theresa Marie Schiavo, shall withdraw or cause to be withdrawn the artificial life-support (hydration and nutrition tube) from Theresa Marie Schiavo at 3:00 p.m. on January 3, 2003. September 17, 2003 court order: ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that the Guardian, Michael Schiavo, shall cause the removal of the nutrition and hydration tube from the Ward, Theresa Marie Schiavo, at 2:00 p.m. on the 15th day of October, 2003. February 25, 2005 court order: ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that absent a stay from the appellate courts, the guardian, Michael Schiavo, shall cause the removal of nutrition and hydration, from the Ward, THERESA SCHIAVO, at 1:00 p.m. on Friday, March 18, 2005. His last order does not distinguish between artificial and natural nutrition and hydration, but is an ORDER to withhold ALL nutrition and hydraton, artificial or natural(which he later affirmed when the parents petitioned to attempt to feed and hydrate her naturally), a clear violation of the following statute. He would have been within the current reading of the law if he had not forbidden all nutrition and hydration, and only permitted the withdrawal of the feeding tube. Terri wasn't dying and what he did could not be construed, by any stretch of the imagination, as simply allowing the natural process of dying. 765.309 Florida Statute: Mercy Killing of Euthanasia Not Authorized; Suicide Distinguished. -- (1) Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone, authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act of omission to end the life other than to permit the natural process of dying. (2) The withholding or withdrawal of life-prolonging procedures from a patient in accordance with any provision of this chapter does not, for any purpose, constitute a suicide. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Well Some one wanted her dead. (rolling eyes) You see it gets bad when a judge says you cant feed some one naturally. Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Very bad, Juju. Illegal. It seems that there is even a Catholic version of the Living Will that is just as vague as what some call the secular type of Living Wills, and therefore just as dangerous. So, if you want your rights protected as much as possible, get a Will to Live document. This article explains it. It's sad that we have come to the point where you have to affirm in writing your wishes to not be denied life saving treatments, medicines, measures, etc. And in some cases, despite what you have written, as we have see with Granny Mae, some may still not honor your written wishes. But it's best to protect yourself by writing down, explicitly, what you want, and to be very careful of what you sign. You can't trust that something is really what you think it is just because it is Catholic. http://mysite.verizon.net/cureltd/id24.html |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Respectively remembering Terri on this day and in ALL the days ahead~ She was TOO IMPORTANT to drop off the pages of the newspapers just because she was inhumanely and judically murdered by the system by starvation and dehydration~ I'd like to encourage those concerned about the inhumanity of what happened to Terri to CONTINUE HER FIGHT FOR LIFE~ May all those involved in her murder be brought to justice in my time~ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks, Marge. Those who do see the inhumanity of what was done, and the injustice, will continue to fight for the right to life for the weakest members of our society, and will mount a concerted effort to bring to justice all those involved in this particular case. I was perplexed at the choosing of Terri for the test case of the right-to-die of people who are not terminally ill nor in an irreversible coma, and who have no written advance directive. It would have been much less controversial if they had chosen someone who was actually on life support, hooked up to machines that were doing the work of her lungs and heart, or someone who was actually in a verifiable coma state or PVS state. I think they chose her precisely because her situation would be controversial, and in prevailing in her situation, as they knew they would with the backing of the corrupt officials and judges, and the backing of the ACLU (and Felos was an ACLU attorney in the past...surprise, surprise), the precedent that would be set would be so much more valuable to them for future cases. If they could kill someone like Terri, afterall, they could certainly 'justifiably' kill others much worse off than she was without much resistence. For shock value, more than anything else, I think they chose her to test the waters of public opinion regarding the forced ending of the life of a 'deficient' person. And I think most people were shell-shocked and their minds simply couldn't let them fully realize the gravity of what was actually happening. I think a lot of people justified it by choosing to believe that she wasn't really 'there' anyway, or why else would someone be trying to 'let her die' (but they didn't 'let her die', they starved and dehydrated her, deliberately, in order to 'make her dead', she wasn't dying of anything else prior to that). Here is an interesting article that sheds a little light onto Judge Greer: http://www.theempirejournal.com/416052_death_is_not_harmless_err.htm |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
If anyone here is interested in doing something further, whether they be conservative, liberal, or middle-of-the-roader, and since it seems that nothing is going to be done on the State level, you can email the US Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, and ask that the Justice Department conduct a full investigation into all aspects surrounding the Schiavo matter at: askdoj@usdoj.gov |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Look, despite the complications of this case, I really don't think it's a nationwide conspiracy to kill off the weak and sick... she wasn't wanted dead by everyone because she was an inconvenience, she was wanted dead by her husband either for ulterior motives or because he honestly felt she wouldn't want to be kept alive. It just got blown up to a national focus because of the great deal of controversy. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Please pray for Baby Charlotte. The British Courts have decided that if she needs to be resuscitated again, she can't be. http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/04/baby_charlotte_1.php#more |
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