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Alicat
Member Elite

since 1999-05-23

Posts 4094
Coastal Texas

0 posted 2005-03-01 08:58 PM

ACLU /Rumsfeld Lawsuit

ACLU sueing Donald Rumsfeld on behalf of 8 non-American plaintiffs. Since when did the 'American' part of the American Civil Liberties Union come to mean non-residetns? Shouldn't this be the job of Amesty International or other global watchdog groups?

Ringo

Member Elite

since 2003-02-20

Posts 3684
Saluting with misty eyes

1 posted 2005-03-01 10:56 PM

This is just the absolute worst. I have a few major beefs against these guys anyhow, but this is just....
Somehow, I think you would be right. Th ACLU have enough people to sue for thinking politically incorrect thoughts in the US that they don't need to go trolling in foreign countries.
Normally, I would say that the UN needs to get ahold of this, and give those who are of the opposite political bent from myself the chance to say "But, the US can refuse to allow the case to go through". I am, however, going to simply state the same thing that I said when the Abu Grabe scandal broke... IT'S NOT HIS FAULT!!!!
As the head of the military branch of the government, it could be argued that he should be held accountable; however, that would be like suing the CEO of Sara Lee Branded Apparel (corporate owner of Chaps, Polo, Walmart clothing, etc) because a sales clerk beat you sensless in the store.
Anyways... that is another argument for another day.
My personal thoughts are with you, Alicat... the ACLU needs to stay on their own shores.

In the wooden chair
Beside my window
I wear a face born in the falling rain

Denise

Moderator

Member Seraphic

since 1999-08-22

Posts 22648

2 posted 2005-03-01 11:04 PM

ACLU...American Communist Lawyers Union?

Ron

Administrator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-05-19

Posts 8669
Michigan, US

3 posted 2005-03-02 08:26 AM

There are, I think, two issues at question here.

Should non-Americans be afforded the same considerations as Americans?

Personally, I see no reason why a French or Brazilian citizen shouldn't be allowed to hire a lawyer and sue an American. And if they find a lawyer, or group of lawyers, willing to file the suit pro bono, I have no problems with that either. Of course, this isn't about France or Brazil, is it? It's about Iraq and Afghanistan, two countries that are occupied by and controlled by American forces. Some might argue that imbues more responsibility, not less?

Should leaders be held responsible for what is done in their name?

Imagine that the CEO of Sara Lee had told those sales clerks he wanted them to get twenty percent more money from all patrons. The clerks were never told to beat you senseless in the store, but neither were they told they couldn't, and as long as no one complained, store policy served to reward the clerks for getting their twenty percent in any way they chose. Still think the CEO isn't responsible for the beating?

That certainly doesn't mean Rumsfeld or Bush is responsible for everything every soldier under their watch has ever done. It does, however, mean they are responsible for far more than just direct orders given. "The buck stops here" has no meaning unless our leaders can be held accountable.

How to decide? Sounds like a job for the courts to me. If Rumsfeld is innocent and without blame, being sued is simply an inconvenient. Some might even say the possibility of being sued is part of the cost of being an American.

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

4 posted 2005-03-02 09:24 AM

quote:
Some might even say the possibility of being sued is part of the cost of being an American.

Sure can't argue with that last statement anyway.

Sudhir Iyer
Member Ascendant

since 2000-04-26

Posts 6943
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium

5 posted 2005-03-02 12:30 PM

Well said, Ron.

I wish I was that eloquent

Regards
Sudhir

Alicat
Member Elite

since 1999-05-23

Posts 4094
Coastal Texas

6 posted 2005-03-02 02:29 PM

There are courts and lawyers in Iraq and Afghanistan where the citizens can sue anyone they so desire. There are international courts where they can do the same thing. My problem is the ACLU, supposedly being there to defend American Civil Liberties, desiring to bring suit on behalf of nonresidents to the US courts, at taxpayer expense. Even if the lawyers go pro bono, there's still court costs.

Christopher

Moderator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-08-02

Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration

7 posted 2005-03-02 04:01 PM

quote:
The clerks were never told to beat you senseless in the store, but neither were they told they couldn't, and as long as no one complained, store policy served to reward the clerks for getting their twenty percent in any way they chose. Still think the CEO isn't responsible for the beating?

To continue with the analogy - the clerk also knows that, regardless of what they weren't told to do, beating someone is illegal/immoral/unacceptable in our modern society. Considering our laws and a general understanding of them, said CEO should in no way be expected to have to tell that clerk not to beat people for the extra money and when replying with disbelief if/when it does happen, is wholly in the right.

Much the same, I believe, with Rumsfeld and the whole scandal. The public outrage simply goes to prove that it's commonly accepted that you do not abuse prisoners. This isn't a new thing by any means - Geneva Conventions have been in place and fairly well know for quit some time.

I think it's ridiculous that Rumsfeld would have had to start a campaign to inform his soldiers that it was wrong/illegal/immoral/unacceptable to abuse prisoners.

On the con-side, I do believe that it would have worth their while to consider the psycological ramifications of being in war, away from home, unwelcome and scared and taken some measures to prepare people (as much as possible) for what they would be dealing with so that they could hopefully respond better under the pressure of their duties. This too has precedence, which only makes me shake my head even more. Wartime abuse has only happened whenever we have a war. You'd think someone would have made the connection and worked a bit harder to prevent it.

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Balladeer

Administrator

Member Empyrean

since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

8 posted 2005-03-02 06:08 PM

Very well said, Chris...somehow logic and common sense should play a part in personal actions which you state eloquently

Mistletoe Angel

Member Empyrean

since 2000-12-17

Posts 32816
Portland, Oregon

9 posted 2005-03-03 08:47 PM

Just a brief thought on this issue here.

First of all, I just believe everything needs to be organized and put together here, like John McCain was saying on Hardball the other day. Obviously this issue is very scattered and we just need to know exactly who or what encouraged a bulk of these torture practices and such.

I respect the ACLU for having the balls here to courageously stand up for justice against the torture and all. I just think their effort in particular here will be insufficient in the means and should be taken to a wider circle.

Look, I find Rumsfeld to be the single greatest criminal in this Administration and I find him a war criminal as well. In fact, I believe his latest approval rating was only 32%. That tells me about 2 in every 3 Americans believe he doesn't stand for them and doesn't feel any safer with him around.

I just think justice needs to be served here the right way and without delay we ought to assemble everything together before the package is delivered. I also think Rumsfeld should be increasingly pressured to just resign his position.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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