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A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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democracy |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space 
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i sometimes wish i could live in the world some are living in right now.there's comfort in illusions, or is it delusions? but troubling as reality is, i've gotten into the annoying habit of, i dunno.. questioning things. call me faithless, call me cynical, call me worse, but elections in iraq raise a few questions. like: how do you hold truly free elections in the midst of war, under occupation, and under threat of death? how much time/thought can possibly go into a selection when the candidates are only revealed to you at the moment of voting? how do you make an educated choice when you're unaware of the candidates platforms? how are they truly democratic elections when a large portion of the population(Sunnis)boycott and protest them. but i digress, afterall, who am i to rain on the parade of fantasies and back-patting. enjoy yourselves whomever you are. who knows, some day i may join in, i'm off to see a man about some land in florida |
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| © Copyright 2005 raphael giuffrida - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Raphael, “how are they truly democratic elections when a large portion of the population(Sunnis)boycott and protest them.” An editor for the Weekly Standard drew a parallel regarding the Sunnis that I had been waiting for someone in the media to make; he compared the Sunnis to Afrikaners in South Africa. It would have been considered unconscionable to allow their little or no participation to delegitimize an election participated in by the majority, and I think a similar act of non-participation by the Sunnis should be considered in similar light. how, how, … I guess we’ve just been shown, at least an attempt. And for millions there’s no going back to the way it was. It’s easy to find fault; all life is suffering; desire is the source of suffering; to end suffering, extinguish desire; in other words give up. P.S. I’ll bet a similar list could have been composed in November. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Wow, I agree totally. How can anyone say those pathetic Iraqis with their inkstained fingers was a sign of a positive step towards democracy. Heck, the voting percentage in Iraq went down dramatically from just a few short years ago. The last election they held the turnout was substantially higher and none of this divisive election when the whole country was 100 per cent behind one candidate. And whole sections of the country were not even required to vote in the prior election. Sheesh, now that is democracy in action with the Kurds given the opportunity to stay home and not vote. And all those other Middle East countries who complain about the occupation, just imagine how proud they are of their democratic right to vote in their country. Heck, the only other countries voting, let's see, the Afghans and the Palestinians... sheesh, they are under occupation also. And, imagine that lunatic who is the mayor of Baghdad who wants to build a statute of Bush as a symbol of freedom knowing that all the democratic loving insurgents and foreign terrorists are making every attempt possible to assassinate him like they did his predecessor. Yep, people need to rid themselves of their delusions and get on the Ted Kennedy bandwagon. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I think that the Iraqi turnout and vote, in the face of death, says it all. They cast a vote for democracy over tyranny. And they were willing to die to do so. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, they were, Denise. They make some of us sitting in our comfortable security complaining look pretty small. They are the heroes... |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
The most amazing scenes to me were the mothers with their children. It is not possible to even begin to comprehend the life the Iraqi people were forced to endure and then to see the mothers walking through gauntlets of soldiers and barbed wire for miles to vote with children in arms. The one young woman who had her family taken away to never be seen again in an ethnic cleansing and then the joy on her face as she voted and showed her inked stained finger to the world... It does make one take pause... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That it does, Tim. There have been many heroic pictures over time and I think that picture of her ranks right up there with the best of them. BTW, for those who think that Sunnis compose a large part of the population of Iraq, the actual figure is 20%. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
20% of a population isn't large? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
20% means that 4 out of 5 Iraqis are not Sunnis. I don't think that qualifies them as a "large part of the population".....but, then, that's a matter of opinion. |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Iraq is a very geographically and culturally diverse place. I think the most interesting fact of all is that over 40% of Iraq's entire population is 14 years of age or below. Over five million boys, over five million girls in the nation's total population of about 25 1/2 million. I think the greatest misconception about Iraq and the people who live there is that the ethnic groups are often confused with the groups. As far as ethnic groups are concerned, 75-80% of the population is Arabic, with the Kurds populating 15-20% and Turkoman, Assyrians, etc. 5%. The Sunnis comprise of 20% of Iraq's population, and that may not seem like a lot, but you have to remember the Kurds make up just less than 20% of the population too. The Shiites are the only majority group in Iraq, which make up about 60%, and then you have very small minorities in-between. 4 out of 5 Iraqis are not Sunnis. Same can be said for the Kurds. The fact is, all three of these groups play a vital role in the social and cultural destiny of this country, and if one should feel suppressed, that may create negative effect. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I don't think the point is that the SUnnis feel suppressed, Noah. I think they are worried about any possible backlash against them. After all, they were the favored ones during Husein's rule, while the other groups were tortured, murdered and discriminated against. No wonder they hate the US for taking Hussein out. Now they are not and they may be worried about being treated like the French prostitutes who, with shaven heads, were paraded through the streets in France after the liberation and damned for being Nazi collaborators. They would have good reason to feel that way although I feel their fears are not justified. On an interesting note, a SUnni cleric was on the news tonight that Sunnis were not well-represented because too many Sunnis stayed away from the voting booths. The funny part is that this was the same cleric who publicly told the Sunnis to stay home and boycott the vote. Go figure.... |
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JoshG Member
since 2004-11-16
Posts 127TX, USA |
How about we step back a few hundred years and maybe we could do some news coverage on the first US elections. The signing of our constitution and so on. Wow, look at those idiots who decided to leave British oppression to start a new world. What if we had decided to wait for a "peaceful alternative" and stayed in England. Yeah, maybe that kind of peace would have been better? |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
"The Sunnis comprise of 20% of Iraq's population, and that may not seem like a lot, but you have to remember the Kurds make up just less than 20% of the population too." exactly the point noah.imagine 20% of a population or better yet, an entire minority, purposely boycotting an election any other place in the world and i wonder if reaction would be different.as for iraq under a shiite majority, noam chomsky offered some excellent insight into the situation http://www.counterpunch.org/chomsky02022005.html |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
If someone boycotts an election, they have no one to blame but themselves. If they want their voices heard, they should vote, plain and simple. Isn't that what we always hear...if you don't bother to vote, don't complain about who gets elected? Should it be different in Iraq? Every group in Iraq has the ability to be a participant in the framing of their constitution. Perhaps that is where their focus should be at this time. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You mean like Canada and Australia, Josh?  |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
"If they want their voices heard, they should vote, plain and simple." nothing about the situation in iraq is plain and simple Denise.in the midst of war,under occupation,and absolutely unaware of your candidates let alone their platforms, how the hell does one know who represents their voice? a country must hold and manage its own elections when it is ready, when it decides, not it's occupiers. i'm appalled that some can't, or refuse to comprehend where keeping candidates hidden from voters until election time, would call into question the legitimacy of an election.actually, apply any of the situations in the original post to your own elections and tell me you'd accept them. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
I’m wondering about the American elections during the Civil War. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
i was under the impression that a civil war was defined as a war between factions/states of the same country, perhaps i'm mistaken? or were you under attack and occupation by a foreign nation at the time as well? Were the candidates hidden from you during said election? i'm straining to see the parallels between your civil war and the examples i gave in the intial post. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
So you feel our "occupation" prevented large numbers of the Sunni's from voting? Why did it not stop the other groups, I wonder? Perhaps because the other groups didn't have their clerics urging a boycott? Why then is the blame not placed where it belongs? The voting went forward, it was a great example of courage and determination by the Iraqi people that sent an unmistakable message to the terrorists and nay-sayers despite the non-participation of some. And that won't change despite the continued criticism. No election is ever perfect, anywhere, and it never will be. Waiting for 'perfect' is just a witholding of the democratic process. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Waiting for perfect may be a withholding of the democratic process, Denise, but working for perfect is the essence of that process. A nation occupied, by definition, is not free. The recent elections are a fine start. A damn fine start. But still just a start. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
yessss Denise that's precisely what i said, occupation was the sole reason for boycotting the election. sigh.it was a factor in their decision, amongst the others i listed and that fail to be addressed. "why then is the blame not placed where it belongs?" i did.the blame rests on doubts within the Sunni population. doubts raised by the factors i listed, factors that would lead you to call into question your elections were you under similar circumstances.and if you can't admit that it would affect your decision, youre not lying to me, but to yourself. "Perhaps because the other groups didn't have their clerics urging a boycott?" could very well be a part of it? so what? i seem to recall the christian and catholic churches guilting american voters not to support Kerry. a vote for kerry was tantamount to sin etc. meddling religious agendas aren't limited to the middle east. but again, if you honestly believe that's the sole determining factor, or that the factors listed don't raise legitimate questions about fair elections...well. happy delusions |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I find this entire thread sincerely sad. I don't think any of us here have any idea what the Iraqis felt or went through in this election. For months Iraqis have been murdered for any type of participation with the allied forces. They had been warned not to vote under threat of death. Every Iraqi knew that they were putting their lives on the line by voting. Yet they voted. They walked miles. They carried their children. Some were pushed by wheelchair. I wonder how many of us would have done the same. They could have been shot on the street, attacked by suicide bombers or have the voting building blown up while they were in it. All of these threats were very real. Yet they voted - 8 million of them. They showed the world that they were not afraid. They showed their desire to be free. They held up their fingers in the sign of a "V", proudly displaying the ink signifying their vote. They laughed, joked and danced in the streets in the face of death. They were not forced to vote - they wanted to vote. They were not forced to have an election. They wanted it and they showed the world their pride of being Iraqis. Yet we have here people who, by fortune of birth and no personal action on their part, enjoy the basic freedoms the Iraqis are willing to die to be able to vote for and we call the actions in Iraq "parades of fantasies", belittle the action they have shown they believe in and basically call them fools for being hoodwinked so easily. We sit in a comfy chair in front of our computers and throw in wisecracks and act superior in our knowledge. Well, to eight million Iraqis it was not a parade of fantasy - it was risking their lives for doing what they believed in - and anyone who cannot recognize and respect that has my sympathy. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
If I'm mistaken here, feel free to correct me. The year of 1812 was an election year. The War of 1812 was England trying to regain lost territory in their eyes, and was in invasion in ours. They burned our White House and raided the land, killing all who opposed them. We rallied, we took the war to them, we overcame and conqured. And we voted! Yes, it was in the past. It was almost 200 years ago. And we forget the hard lessons of the past. I'm sure the sheer joy the Iraqis felt has been felt here as well, but not for a very long time. I am proud to be able to vote here. I take my time and weigh each candidate for every position. It is an honor and a priviledge, and I feel joy every time I am able to participate. I still remember my disappointment at being 17 and 10 1/2 months in 1988 and not being able to vote. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
"I find this entire thread sincerely sad." as i do blind devotion, in all its forms. i would like nothing more than to be completely wrong about the outcome.i'm in awe of those who did vote, but it breaks my heart that their hopes may be for naught.this thread was never a question of iraqi spirit, or of their willingness to dream.you make it sound like i've undermined them. what the thread is about, are the realities that surround the election itself. factors that would call into question the legitimacy of an election on ANY other place in the world.and while i'd like nothing more than to be completely wrong about this, a rational look at the situation as it stands,continued occupation, and the possibility of another puppet regime paints and the dangers that poses in the future paint a bleak picture. Alicat: "We rallied, we took the war to them, we overcame and conqured. And we voted!" All choices YOU made, not choices offered to you under the watchful eye of your occupiers.in the end the vote was carried out after the occupation/attack, on your terms and with full knowledge of your candidates. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I guess we can take any situation in life and either see the silver linings in the dark clouds or focus only on the dark clouds, no matter how bright the silver linings may be. It is my impression that those on the Left, including those in the Democratic leadership, who are fomenting this controversy, are doing so because to admit that the Iraqi elections were a success would be an undermining of their pessimism, and might be seen as giving credence to Bush's policies, and therefore might be seen as a relinquishing of any political power that they may still have. Raph, some churches may have "guilted" their congregations. I'm sure most simply told them to vote their consciences and for the candidates that most closely aligned with their own personal convictions on the issues. And I haven't heard of any that called for a boycott of the elections. Yes, Ron, it was a great start. I don't think anyone even indicated that it wasn't that, a start in the process, that it was somehow an end in and of itself. But I have to disagree with you in the charcterization of our presence as an occupation. The sense that I get is that the vast majority of the Iraqis view us as their protectors and want us to stay until that time comes when their own forces are fully trained and ready to take over the task. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Maybe. I honestly couldn't say, nor do I think many can. What I do know, Denise, is that what someone wants is only relevant if given a choice. A military occupation is defined by a lack of choice. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Denise, again you've ignored/failed to apply the list of factors to yourself, and tell me how you would react in a similar situation.it's not unfounded criticism, its based on an analytical look at the election. go ahead call me a pessimist. blind optimism is far more dangerous than pessimism,as devotion to this orwellian administration and its ideals have proven.my views are drawn from critical analysis of the current situation and its historical background. if i am completely wrong about the situation, nothing would make me happier Denise.if you are wrong,however,what will you feel?more importantly, what of the iraqis who dared to dream, i think we know what they'll feel.. so by all means, enjoy your silver linings.may they come true for all our sakes. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Denise, I share your optimism and hope. Is there room on that silver lining for me, too...? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Applying it to myself, placing myself in Saddam's Iraq, I would not see the U.S. as occupiers, but as liberators and protectors. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Always, Michael, always. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
"Applying it to myself, placing myself in Saddam's Iraq, I would not see the U.S. as occupiers, but as liberators and protectors" saddam hussein has absolutely nothing to do with the hypothetical question, nor the factors that call into question the election.the only possible connection between them is that invariably a similar regimes and problems will emerge. well,the region in italy i'm from has a superstition, staring into the eyes of madmen will drive you mad. for fear that reading their words will have the same effect, i'm off. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I thought you asked me to put myself in place of the Iraqi people, Raph? I did, mentally. That would include a 30+ history under the dictatorship of Saddam, followed by the diposing of him, previous to the current situation and elections. How can one separate the history from it and say it isn't relevant? News flash, Raph. Those that don't agree with you are not necessarily madmen. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
newsflash, it's not that you disagree, it's how and why you do, that makes me question sanity/motives. now, what i asked was that you to put yourself in the place of an American voter having to deal with the circumstances listed in the original post. i can only clarify and repeat a query so many times before i begin to question the poster's ability to follow the discussion.as i know you're not unintelligent, the alternative is to question your mindset. the 'madness',is a blind devotion to the administration and its policies.justifying the unjustifiable. and in this thread, spinning or refusing to deal with the actual question because the answer may, just may. not align with the bush's fantasy new world order that you've chosen to believe in. take care of the rest of the trinity. p.s. all apologies to Ron/ and the moderator who was forced to edit this thread.not for what was said, but that it was said here. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Facing the same situation as did the Iraqis, I would like to say that I would do the best that I could under the circumstances (and be grateful for the opportunity to do so), but I probably would not have had the guts to go to a polling place under the threat of death to myself and to my children. And no, I wouldn't call the results illegitimate. I think voting under those circumstances would tend to give more legitimacy to the voting process, in that the people who voted were so serious about it that they did so at the risk of their lives and the lives of their children. And I disagree with some of your premises, so of course I won't come to the same conclusions as you do. I disagree with your characterization that the Iraqis are under occupation. I disagree that not knowing all the names of all the candidates is necessarily a hindrance as I'm sure that there was some designation as to their party/affiliation/tribe (which would tend to give a hint as to what their platforms were) somewhere on the ballots with the names of those running for the 275 slots for the Interim Council. Was the election perfect? No. None ever will be anywhere in the world, at any time. That doesn't mean that we not have them until we can figure out a way to make them more perfect. And then of course, everyone would have their own definition of perfect, and if something as relative as that were the prerrequisite, then I guess there would never be another election anywhere ever again. But was it the illegitimate disaster that you seem to want to paint it? I don't think so. If it did nothing more than show to the world the Iraqi people's courage and willingness to brave death to voice their opinion to opt for democracy over tyranny, to express solidarity against the terrorists, then that in and of itself made it a splendid success. I also don't have a blind devotion to the administration and its policies. There are a few things that I would definitely handle differently. But I do agree with the way the administration is handling the Iraq situation and the broader war on terrorism (the opposite of appeasement). And I prefer the new world order that may come of that than any that you might espouse, I'm sure. And if you think that makes me delusional, well, you are entitled to your opinion. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
For a moment I thought of what Japan was and what it became during and after the American occupation. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
as i promised myself i'd leave the alley, i'll only comment on what is yet another glaring example of the spinning/semantic play that led me to use the phrases blind devotion and delusion. quote: oc·cu·pa·tion : ..#3a.Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces 3b. The military government exercising control over an occupied nation or territory *3a - as far as i recall, and interestingly enough, a foreign coalition attacked, monitors and holds control of much iraq's territories 3b - that same foreign military's tanks,aircraft and personnel still perform patrols, attack 'insurgents' and call/enforce curfews shakes head.nuff said |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
We're still there, Raph, because their military and police forces are not fully up to the task of protecting and defending the Iraqis yet without assistance from us. That's something that takes time (or is that yet another glaring example of my madness and delusion?) We did hand the reigns of sovereignty over to them a while back. We can't do anything over there without the yea or nay of Allawi (remember Falluja?) Your reply is yet another glaring example of your intolerance of views not your own and your demeaning behavior towards those who hold those views. quote: Until you can treat others who don't agree with you respectfully, that's probably for the best. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Eason Jordan, CNN. What more needs to be said. |
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